edit

RDF Working Group

Minutes of 09 March 2011

Agenda
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.09
Seen
Andy Seaborne, Antoine Zimmermann, Axel Polleres, Christopher Matheus, David Wood, Gavin Carothers, Guus Schreiber, Ivan Herman, Jean-François Baget, Lee Feigenbaum, Manu Sporny, Matteo Brunati, Mischa Tuffield, Nathan Rixham, Nicholas Humfrey, Peter Patel-Schneider, Pierre-Antoine Champin, Richard Cyganiak, Sandro Hawke, Souripriya Das, Steve Harris, Thomas Steiner, Zhe Wu
Chair
Guus Schreiber
Scribe
Christopher Matheus
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions
  1. accept previous minutes http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-03-02 link
  2. Action 7 closed link
  3. Action 12 closed link
  4. Action 15 closed link
Topics
15:57:19 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/09-rdf-wg-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/09-rdf-wg-irc

15:57:28 <cmatheus> rrsagent, make records public

Christopher Matheus: rrsagent, make records public

15:57:50 <cmatheus> Scribe: cmatheus

(Scribe set to Christopher Matheus)

15:59:50 <AndyS> no zakim?

Andy Seaborne: no zakim?

16:00:04 <NickH> UK phone number seems to be working much better than it was

Nicholas Humfrey: UK phone number seems to be working much better than it was

16:00:20 <JFB> Hi, is the conference code really 73394 (it's not accepted)?

Jean-François Baget: Hi, is the conference code really 73394 (it's not accepted)?

16:00:37 <NickH> JFB: 73394 worked for me

Jean-François Baget: 73394 worked for me [ Scribe Assist by Nicholas Humfrey ]

16:00:38 <AZ> JFB, yes it is

Antoine Zimmermann: JFB, yes it is

16:00:50 <JFB> Still trying....

Jean-François Baget: Still trying....

16:00:54 <davidwood> Chair: Guus Schreiber
16:00:58 <AndyS> Code worked for me but no zakim annoucements in IRC.

Andy Seaborne: Code worked for me but no zakim annoucements in IRC.

16:01:27 <sandro> zakim, this is rdf-wg

Sandro Hawke: zakim, this is rdf-wg

16:01:40 <Guus> zakim, who is here?

Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here?

16:01:40 <Zakim> sorry, Guus, I don't know what conference this is

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, Guus, I don't know what conference this is

16:01:42 <Zakim> On IRC I see cygri, AlexHall, NickH, RRSAgent, AZ, pfps, dfensel6, gavin, cmatheus, hsbauer, Guus, JFB, LeeF, webr3, SteveH, AndyS, ivan, davidwood, yvesr, manu, manu1, sandro,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see cygri, AlexHall, NickH, RRSAgent, AZ, pfps, dfensel6, gavin, cmatheus, hsbauer, Guus, JFB, LeeF, webr3, SteveH, AndyS, ivan, davidwood, yvesr, manu, manu1, sandro,

16:01:45 <Zakim> ... trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: ... trackbot

16:01:57 <sandro> zakim, this is rdf-wg

Sandro Hawke: zakim, this is rdf-wg

16:01:57 <Zakim> sorry, sandro, I do not see a conference named 'rdf-wg' in progress or scheduled at this time

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, sandro, I do not see a conference named 'rdf-wg' in progress or scheduled at this time

16:02:00 <sandro> zakim, this is rdfwg

Sandro Hawke: zakim, this is rdfwg

16:02:03 <Zakim> ok, sandro; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, sandro; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

16:02:10 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call?

16:02:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see Scott_Bauer, Dieter, ??P18, Guus, Azimmerm, ??P36, [IPcaller], AlexHall, LeeF, Sandro, zwu2, mhausenblas

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Scott_Bauer, Dieter, ??P18, Guus, Azimmerm, ??P36, [IPcaller], AlexHall, LeeF, Sandro, zwu2, mhausenblas

16:02:18 <cygri> zakim, mhausenblas is me

Richard Cyganiak: zakim, mhausenblas is me

16:02:18 <Zakim> +cygri; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +cygri; got it

16:02:21 <zwu2> zakim, mute me

Zhe Wu: zakim, mute me

16:02:21 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: zwu2 should now be muted

16:02:26 <davidwood> I'll be a few minutes late :(

David Wood: I'll be a few minutes late :(

16:02:29 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPCaller is me

16:02:32 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it

16:02:34 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider

Zakim IRC Bot: +Peter_Patel-Schneider

16:02:39 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip

Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip

16:02:47 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made

16:02:49 <Zakim> +Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan

16:02:59 <Zakim> +gavinc

Zakim IRC Bot: +gavinc

16:03:09 <Zakim> +JeanFrancois

Zakim IRC Bot: +JeanFrancois

16:03:15 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

16:03:18 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: RDF WG Meeting 2011-03-09  http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.09

Sandro Hawke: sandro has changed the topic to: RDF WG Meeting 2011-03-09 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.09

16:03:19 <webr3> zakim, i am IPcaller

Nathan Rixham: zakim, i am IPcaller

16:03:19 <Zakim> +Luca

Zakim IRC Bot: +Luca

16:03:24 <manu> zakim, code?

Manu Sporny: zakim, code?

16:03:29 <cmatheus> Topic: Admin

1. Admin

16:03:30 <sandro> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.09
16:03:31 <Zakim> ok, webr3, I now associate you with [IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, webr3, I now associate you with [IPcaller]

16:03:37 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), manu

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), manu

16:03:40 <ivan> +1

Ivan Herman: +1

16:03:42 <webr3> +1

Nathan Rixham: +1

16:03:45 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres

Zakim IRC Bot: +AxelPolleres

16:03:46 <cmatheus> Guus: Approve agenda

Guus Schreiber: Approve agenda

16:03:46 <JFB> +1

Jean-François Baget: +1

16:03:53 <Zakim> +davidwood

Zakim IRC Bot: +davidwood

16:03:56 <sandro> PROPOSED: accept previous minutes http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-03-02

PROPOSED: accept previous minutes http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-03-02

16:04:00 <cmatheus> ... minutes accepted

... minutes accepted

16:04:04 <sandro> RESOLVED: accept previous minutes http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-03-02

RESOLVED: accept previous minutes http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-03-02

16:04:09 <Zakim> +??P55

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P55

16:04:11 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller.a]

16:04:15 <manu> zakim, I am ??P55

Manu Sporny: zakim, I am ??P55

16:04:15 <Zakim> +manu; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +manu; got it

16:04:19 <cmatheus> ... day light savings time

... day light savings time

16:04:25 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.aa]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller.aa]

16:04:45 <mbrunati> zakim,

Matteo Brunati: zakim,

16:04:45 <Zakim> I don't understand '', mbrunati

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand '', mbrunati

16:04:56 <cmatheus> ... custom: follow american time

... custom: follow american time

16:05:03 <Zakim> + +1.404.978.aaaa - is perhaps Dzung_Tran?

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.404.978.aaaa - is perhaps Dzung_Tran?

16:05:09 <mbrunati> zakim, [IPcaller.aa] is me

Matteo Brunati: zakim, [IPcaller.aa] is me

16:05:09 <Zakim> +mbrunati; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +mbrunati; got it

16:05:19 <sandro> Guus: For European folks, the next two telecons will be an hour early.

Guus Schreiber: For European folks, the next two telecons will be an hour early. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:05:38 <davidwood> We need an international standard for DST…

David Wood: We need an international standard for DST…

16:05:42 <Zakim> +Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri

16:05:48 <cmatheus> Guus: next telecoms - note time differences

Guus Schreiber: next telecoms - note time differences

16:05:55 <cmatheus> ... action item review

... action item review

16:05:59 <gavin> davidwood, yes, to banish it forever and never speak of it again

Gavin Carothers: davidwood, yes, to banish it forever and never speak of it again

16:06:01 <cmatheus> Topic: Action Items

2. Action Items

16:06:01 <NickH> Zakim, ??P36 is me

Nicholas Humfrey: Zakim, ??P36 is me

16:06:01 <Zakim> +NickH; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +NickH; got it

16:06:02 <sandro> davidwood, that could never work for north-vs-southern hemisphere, at least.  :-)

Sandro Hawke: davidwood, that could never work for north-vs-southern hemisphere, at least. :-)

16:06:04 <mbrunati> q-

Matteo Brunati: q-

16:06:11 <Guus> q?

Guus Schreiber: q?

16:06:23 <Zakim> +??P49

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P49

16:06:28 <Guus> ack Luca

Guus Schreiber: ack Luca

16:06:29 <SteveH> Zakim, who's on the phone?

Steve Harris: Zakim, who's on the phone?

16:06:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see Scott_Bauer, Dieter, ??P18, Guus, Azimmerm, NickH, AndyS, AlexHall, LeeF, Sandro, zwu2 (muted), cygri, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Ivan, gavinc, JeanFrancois,

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Scott_Bauer, Dieter, ??P18, Guus, Azimmerm, NickH, AndyS, AlexHall, LeeF, Sandro, zwu2 (muted), cygri, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Ivan, gavinc, JeanFrancois,

16:06:33 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is talking?

16:06:33 <Zakim> ... [IPcaller], pchampin, AxelPolleres, davidwood, manu, [IPcaller.a], mbrunati, Dzung_Tran?, Souri, ??P49

Zakim IRC Bot: ... [IPcaller], pchampin, AxelPolleres, davidwood, manu, [IPcaller.a], mbrunati, Dzung_Tran?, Souri, ??P49

16:06:35 <mischat> zakim, ??P49 is me

Mischa Tuffield: zakim, ??P49 is me

16:06:35 <Zakim> +mischat; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +mischat; got it

16:06:41 <mischat> zakim, mute me

Mischa Tuffield: zakim, mute me

16:06:41 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: mischat should now be muted

16:06:45 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (13%)

Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (13%)

16:07:04 <SteveH> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me

Steve Harris: Zakim, [IPcaller] is me

16:07:04 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +SteveH; got it

16:07:07 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

16:07:13 <cmatheus> ... Action 7

... ACTION-7

16:07:23 <webr3> -> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/GraphConceptTerminology

Nathan Rixham: -> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/GraphConceptTerminology

16:07:25 <cygri> ACTION-7?

Richard Cyganiak: ACTION-7?

16:07:25 <trackbot> ACTION-7 -- Nathan Rixham to write a wiki page clarifying the different "graph" concepts -- due 2011-03-02 -- PENDINGREVIEW

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-7 -- Nathan Rixham to write a wiki page clarifying the different "graph" concepts -- due 2011-03-02 -- PENDINGREVIEW

16:07:25 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/7

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/7

16:07:26 <cmatheus> ... Nathan wiki page on graph concepts

... Nathan wiki page on graph concepts

16:07:32 <cmatheus> Nathan: done

Nathan Rixham: done

16:07:50 <sandro> close ACTION-7

Sandro Hawke: close ACTION-7

16:07:50 <trackbot> ACTION-7 Write a wiki page clarifying the different "graph" concepts closed

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-7 Write a wiki page clarifying the different "graph" concepts closed

16:07:51 <AxelPolleres> close ACTION-7

Axel Polleres: close ACTION-7

16:07:51 <trackbot> ACTION-7 Write a wiki page clarifying the different "graph" concepts closed

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-7 Write a wiki page clarifying the different "graph" concepts closed

16:07:56 <cmatheus> ... Sandro, can you mark action 7 as closed

... Sandro, can you mark ACTION-7 as closed

16:08:04 <cmatheus> Resolved: Action 7 closed

RESOLVED: ACTION-7 closed

16:08:08 <sandro> ACTION-12?

Sandro Hawke: ACTION-12?

16:08:08 <trackbot> ACTION-12 -- Guus Schreiber to talk to paul groth to get a provenance use case for graphs -- due 2011-03-02 -- PENDINGREVIEW

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-12 -- Guus Schreiber to talk to paul groth to get a provenance use case for graphs -- due 2011-03-02 -- PENDINGREVIEW

16:08:08 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/12

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/12

16:08:16 <cmatheus> ... action 12

... ACTION-12

16:08:21 <sandro> close ACTION-12

Sandro Hawke: close ACTION-12

16:08:21 <trackbot> ACTION-12 Talk to paul groth to get a provenance use case for graphs closed

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-12 Talk to paul groth to get a provenance use case for graphs closed

16:08:22 <cmatheus> ... closed

... closed

16:08:32 <sandro> ACTION-15?

Sandro Hawke: ACTION-15?

16:08:32 <trackbot> ACTION-15 -- Guus Schreiber to make hotel suggestions for FTF1 -- due 2011-03-09 -- PENDINGREVIEW

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-15 -- Guus Schreiber to make hotel suggestions for FTF1 -- due 2011-03-09 -- PENDINGREVIEW

16:08:32 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/15

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/15

16:08:45 <cmatheus> ... action 15 - hotel suggestions - done.

... ACTION-15 - hotel suggestions - done.

16:08:55 <sandro> close ACTION-15

Sandro Hawke: close ACTION-15

16:08:55 <trackbot> ACTION-15 Make hotel suggestions for FTF1 closed

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-15 Make hotel suggestions for FTF1 closed

16:09:00 <cmatheus> Resolved: Action 12 closed

RESOLVED: ACTION-12 closed

16:09:19 <cmatheus> Resolved: Action 15 closed

RESOLVED: ACTION-15 closed

16:09:23 <sandro> guus: No hotels at CWI, but three groups close by. not a big city.    at most 35 minutes.

Guus Schreiber: No hotels at CWI, but three groups close by. not a big city. at most 35 minutes. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:09:28 <manu> I have created a wiki page attempting to collect design requirements for RDF in JSON here: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON#RDF_in_JSON_Design_Requirements

Manu Sporny: I have created a wiki page attempting to collect design requirements for RDF in JSON here: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON#RDF_in_JSON_Design_Requirements

16:09:37 <manu> (That's related to ACTION-16)

Manu Sporny: (That's related to ACTION-16)

16:09:41 <sandro> cmatheus, please don't use "Resolved" for actions.

Sandro Hawke: cmatheus, please don't use "Resolved" for actions.

16:09:54 <cmatheus> sandro, got it.

sandro, got it.

16:10:10 <sandro> action-18?

Sandro Hawke: ACTION-18?

16:10:10 <trackbot> ACTION-18 -- Ivan Herman to establish a wiki page for the FTF1 agenda and list initial content -- due 2011-03-09 -- PENDINGREVIEW

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-18 -- Ivan Herman to establish a wiki page for the FTF1 agenda and list initial content -- due 2011-03-09 -- PENDINGREVIEW

16:10:10 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/18

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/18

16:10:15 <sandro> close action-18

Sandro Hawke: close ACTION-18

16:10:15 <trackbot> ACTION-18 Establish a wiki page for the FTF1 agenda and list initial content closed

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-18 Establish a wiki page for the FTF1 agenda and list initial content closed

16:10:22 <cmatheus> ... Action 18 - closed.

... ACTION-18 - closed.

16:10:48 <cmatheus> ... Dan Brickley action on named graph. not on call.

... Dan Brickley action on named graph. not on call.

16:10:54 <sandro> action-5?

Sandro Hawke: ACTION-5?

16:10:54 <trackbot> ACTION-5 -- Yves Raimond to draft a use case for named graphs from BBC work -- due 2011-03-02 -- OPEN

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-5 -- Yves Raimond to draft a use case for named graphs from BBC work -- due 2011-03-02 -- OPEN

16:10:54 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/5

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/5

16:11:03 <cmatheus> ... Action 5 remains open

... ACTION-5 remains open

16:11:35 <cmatheus> ... Action for Pat -- regrets on being out for ten days.

... Action for Pat -- regrets on being out for ten days.

16:11:38 <mischat> zakim, unmute me

Mischa Tuffield: zakim, unmute me

16:11:38 <Zakim> mischat should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: mischat should no longer be muted

16:11:47 <cmatheus> ... Mishat to provided ...

... Mishat to provided ...

16:12:05 <sandro> close action-11

Sandro Hawke: close ACTION-11

16:12:06 <trackbot> ACTION-11 Provide Garlik pov re: use-cases with SteveH closed

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-11 Provide Garlik pov re: use-cases with SteveH closed

16:12:09 <cmatheus> Mischat: turned action into pending reviews.

Mischa Tuffield: turned action into pending reviews.

16:12:12 <mischat> zakim, mute me

Mischa Tuffield: zakim, mute me

16:12:12 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: mischat should now be muted

16:12:18 <sandro> action-16?

Sandro Hawke: ACTION-16?

16:12:18 <trackbot> ACTION-16 -- Manu Sporny to summarize positions that folks have taken via the mailing list onto the wiki in an attempt to figure out which document should be used as a starting point for the RDF in JSON work. -- due 2011-03-09 -- OPEN

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-16 -- Manu Sporny to summarize positions that folks have taken via the mailing list onto the wiki in an attempt to figure out which document should be used as a starting point for the RDF in JSON work. -- due 2011-03-09 -- OPEN

16:12:18 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/16

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/16

16:12:27 <cmatheus> Guus: action closed.

Guus Schreiber: action closed.

16:12:59 <cmatheus> Manu: JSon - summarization of positions.  still under discussion.

Manu Sporny: JSon - summarization of positions. still under discussion.

16:13:06 <sandro> close action-16

Sandro Hawke: close ACTION-16

16:13:06 <trackbot> ACTION-16 Summarize positions that folks have taken via the mailing list onto the wiki in an attempt to figure out which document should be used as a starting point for the RDF in JSON work. closed

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-16 Summarize positions that folks have taken via the mailing list onto the wiki in an attempt to figure out which document should be used as a starting point for the RDF in JSON work. closed

16:13:18 <cmatheus> Guus: you did your action item and it can be closed.

Guus Schreiber: you did your action item and it can be closed.

16:13:22 <sandro> action-17?

Sandro Hawke: ACTION-17?

16:13:22 <trackbot> ACTION-17 -- Gavin Carothers to try and produce a digram based on the g-box, g-snap, g-text model from Sandro's email and this conversation -- due 2011-03-16 -- OPEN

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-17 -- Gavin Carothers to try and produce a digram based on the g-box, g-snap, g-text model from Sandro's email and this conversation -- due 2011-03-16 -- OPEN

16:13:22 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/17

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/17

16:13:37 <cmatheus> ... action 17: g-box diagram

... ACTION-17: g-box diagram

16:14:00 <cygri> it was gavin speaking

Richard Cyganiak: it was gavin speaking

16:14:02 <cmatheus> Gavin: haven had time to get to it this week.

Gavin Carothers: haven had time to get to it this week.

16:14:03 <sandro> gavin: I'll do it soon and put it on the wiki page of graph concepts

Gavin Carothers: I'll do it soon and put it on the wiki page of graph concepts [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:14:21 <cmatheus> Guus:  keep open, hopefully close next week.

Guus Schreiber: keep open, hopefully close next week.

16:14:36 <cmatheus> ... ends discussionon actionitems

... ends discussionon actionitems

16:15:01 <cmatheus> Topic: F2F1

3. F2F1

16:15:05 <Guus> q?

Guus Schreiber: q?

16:15:22 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1

Mischa Tuffield: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1

16:15:30 <cmatheus> Guus: please indicate whether you are attending on wiki page.

Guus Schreiber: please indicate whether you are attending on wiki page.

16:15:45 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

16:15:48 <cmatheus> ... need a page to track regrets.

... need a page to track regrets.

16:16:16 <ivan> q-

Ivan Herman: q-

16:16:58 <cmatheus> Ivan: needs to give list of all participants.  if you don't provide a name you may not be permitted in.

Ivan Herman: needs to give list of all participants. if you don't provide a name you may not be permitted in.

16:17:00 <davidwood> Regrets section added to http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1

David Wood: Regrets section added to http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1

16:17:18 <cmatheus> ... will have two meeting rooms plus my office.

... will have two meeting rooms plus my office.

16:17:39 <cmatheus> Guus: moving on to the agenda for F2F

Guus Schreiber: moving on to the agenda for F2F

16:18:20 <cmatheus> ... proposal: use day one to discussion items on table for task forces and identify what's need to be done for first draft.

... proposal: use day one to discussion items on table for task forces and identify what's need to be done for first draft.

16:18:46 <cmatheus> ... structure: reporting, discussion, planning

... structure: reporting, discussion, planning

16:19:09 <cmatheus> ... dinner in the evening by university. lunch offered by Talis.

... dinner in the evening by university. lunch offered by Talis.

16:19:31 <cmatheus> ... need to be more specific on topics.  can we live with this layout?

... need to be more specific on topics. can we live with this layout?

16:19:37 <cygri> +1

Richard Cyganiak: +1

16:19:41 <JFB> +1

Jean-François Baget: +1

16:19:42 <manu> +1 for F2F1 Agenda

Manu Sporny: +1 for F2F1 Agenda

16:19:58 <mbrunati> +1

Matteo Brunati: +1

16:20:04 <davidwood> +1

David Wood: +1

16:20:05 <cmatheus> ... F2F1 agenda approved.

... F2F1 agenda approved.

16:20:07 <pfps> not much more can be done at this time to figure out agenda for F2F1

Peter Patel-Schneider: not much more can be done at this time to figure out agenda for F2F1

16:20:14 <tomayac> +1

Thomas Steiner: +1

16:20:26 <cmatheus> ... next two weeks we will fill in the details.

... next two weeks we will fill in the details.

16:20:35 <cmatheus> Topic: Task Forces

4. Task Forces

16:21:15 <cmatheus> Guus: general remark: very happy to see so many threads.

Guus Schreiber: general remark: very happy to see so many threads.

16:21:27 <cmatheus> ... some worry that we might go outside the charter.

... some worry that we might go outside the charter.

16:21:42 <cmatheus> ... over next few weeks we need to start restricting outselves.

... over next few weeks we need to start restricting outselves.

16:21:49 <mischat> s/Guss/Guus/

Mischa Tuffield: s/Guss/Guus/ (warning: replacement failed)

16:21:54 <cmatheus> ... must need way to manage things over coming year.

... must need way to manage things over coming year.

16:22:00 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

16:22:07 <cmatheus> ... can't do everything we've talked about over last two weeks.

... can't do everything we've talked about over last two weeks.

16:22:14 <cmatheus> ... any comments?

... any comments?

16:22:50 <cmatheus> Richard: good to have broad discussion to get issues on table, but also important to make clear what charter is.  what it allows us to do and what it doesn't.

Richard Cyganiak: good to have broad discussion to get issues on table, but also important to make clear what charter is. what it allows us to do and what it doesn't.

16:23:12 <cmatheus> ... would be useful for thos ewho wrote the charter to speak up when things out of scope come up.

... would be useful for thos ewho wrote the charter to speak up when things out of scope come up.

16:23:14 <sandro> q+ to say writers intent doesn't matter....

Sandro Hawke: q+ to say writers intent doesn't matter....

16:23:30 <cygri> q-

Richard Cyganiak: q-

16:23:55 <sandro> q-

Sandro Hawke: q-

16:24:10 <cmatheus> Guus: agreed, we need to start limiting discussions.  point well taken.

Guus Schreiber: agreed, we need to start limiting discussions. point well taken.

16:25:09 <cmatheus> David: we don't want to let the conversation to get out of control but people should feel free to make proposals and voice opinions.

David Wood: we don't want to let the conversation to get out of control but people should feel free to make proposals and voice opinions.

16:25:13 <AndyS> Are changes that affect other RECs in or out of scope? (by intent - words do no restrict this WG)

Andy Seaborne: Are changes that affect other RECs in or out of scope? (by intent - words do no restrict this WG)

16:25:21 <cmatheus> Guus: moving on to task force discussions.

Guus Schreiber: moving on to task force discussions.

16:25:36 <cmatheus> ... starting with Turtle TF

... starting with Turtle TF

16:25:38 <mischat>  http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Turtle

Mischa Tuffield: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Turtle

16:26:05 <cmatheus> ... potential deliverables for Turtle work.

... potential deliverables for Turtle work.

16:26:12 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Turtle/Proposals

Richard Cyganiak: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Turtle/Proposals

16:26:17 <cmatheus> Richard: on background of the wiki page -- I created it.

Richard Cyganiak: on background of the wiki page -- I created it.

16:27:01 <cmatheus> ... some terms in discussions where captured in wiki page.

... some terms in discussions where captured in wiki page.

16:27:47 <manu> +1 to Qurtle, N-Quads++

Manu Sporny: +1 to Qurtle, N-Quads++

16:27:58 <manu> -1 to everything else (current opinion, may change)

Manu Sporny: -1 to everything else (current opinion, may change)

16:28:01 <cmatheus> ... summary: make minimal fixes (e.g. aligning with sparql); super turtle would add some additional properties; qurtle would add quad support.

... summary: make minimal fixes (e.g. aligning with sparql); super turtle would add some additional properties; qurtle would add quad support.

16:28:19 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

16:28:26 <sandro> I suggest the names N-Triples2 and N-Quads2 are more descriptive than "++" since it's not backward compatible.

Sandro Hawke: I suggest the names N-Triples2 and N-Quads2 are more descriptive than "++" since it's not backward compatible.

16:29:02 <cmatheus> ... still under discussion.  n-triple++ could be recognized and turned into a minimal format for exchanging triples.

... still under discussion. n-triple++ could be recognized and turned into a minimal format for exchanging triples.

16:29:25 <cmatheus> ... n-quads - take current proposal and add option for naming contexts/graphs.

... n-quads - take current proposal and add option for naming contexts/graphs.

16:29:35 <gavin> Sandro, why would it not parse current n-triples/n-quads?

Gavin Carothers: Sandro, why would it not parse current n-triples/n-quads?

16:29:36 <cmatheus> ... idea is to turn it into a specification.

... idea is to turn it into a specification.

16:29:52 <cmatheus> ... has been said that fourth element should be required.

... has been said that fourth element should be required.

16:30:28 <cmatheus> ... another proposal: rdf-tuples like csv.  more like a serialization of a sparql result set.

... another proposal: rdf-tuples like csv. more like a serialization of a sparql result set.

16:30:37 <sandro> gavin, I suppose it could be, but with utf-8 I'd exepect the \uXXXXXXXX syntax to be removed.

Sandro Hawke: gavin, I suppose it could be, but with utf-8 I'd exepect the \uXXXXXXXX syntax to be removed.

16:30:54 <cmatheus> Ivan: comment 1: maybe worth adding what the media types are.

Ivan Herman: comment 1: maybe worth adding what the media types are.

16:31:10 <SteveH> sandro, it's useful for non-UTF-8 systems, like some version of emacs

Steve Harris: sandro, it's useful for non-UTF-8 systems, like some version of emacs

16:31:34 <cmatheus> ... qurtle should be seperated by media types

... qurtle should be seperated by media types

16:31:47 <tomayac> +1 for having different media types

Thomas Steiner: +1 for having different media types

16:31:55 <SteveH> +1

Steve Harris: +1

16:31:56 <AndyS> sandro, \uXXXX and \UXXXXXXXX in Turtle today.

Andy Seaborne: sandro, \uXXXX and \UXXXXXXXX in Turtle today.

16:31:59 <cmatheus> ... comment 2: on current page, rdf-tuples is not mentioned in the charter.

... comment 2: on current page, rdf-tuples is not mentioned in the charter.

16:32:23 <cmatheus> ... whole issue around n-triples and their extension is not in the charter either.

... whole issue around n-triples and their extension is not in the charter either.

16:32:37 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is talking?

16:32:49 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: gavinc (70%), Ivan (8%)

Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: gavinc (70%), Ivan (8%)

16:33:02 <cmatheus> Gavin: charter speaks of revising existing notes and other parts of RDF

Gavin Carothers: charter speaks of revising existing notes and other parts of RDF

16:33:22 <cmatheus> Ivan: yes, it talks of that on the edge. but rdf-tuples is not in the charter.

Ivan Herman: yes, it talks of that on the edge. but rdf-tuples is not in the charter.

16:33:35 <cmatheus> ... n-triples could be squeezed a little bit.

... n-triples could be squeezed a little bit.

16:33:49 <gavin> +q

Gavin Carothers: +q

16:34:07 <Guus> ack ivan

Guus Schreiber: ack ivan

16:34:33 <cmatheus> Ivan: strictly speaking the charter may exclude super-turtle.

Ivan Herman: strictly speaking the charter may exclude super-turtle.

16:34:42 <sandro> q+

Sandro Hawke: q+

16:34:54 <Guus> ack gavin

Guus Schreiber: ack gavin

16:35:10 <cmatheus> ... charter says standardize turtle and add graph support.  doesn't include extensions beyond graph support.

... charter says standardize turtle and add graph support. doesn't include extensions beyond graph support.

16:35:44 <Guus> ack samdro

Guus Schreiber: ack samdro

16:35:51 <cmatheus> Gavin: n-turtle and quads on list because they could use the additional symbol.

Gavin Carothers: n-turtle and quads on list because they could use the additional symbol.

16:35:52 <ivan> ack sandro

Ivan Herman: ack sandro

16:35:54 <Guus> ack sandro

Guus Schreiber: ack sandro

16:36:00 <pchampin> +1 to standardize tokens

Pierre-Antoine Champin: +1 to standardize tokens

16:36:10 <AndyS> q+

Andy Seaborne: q+

16:36:19 <SteveH> reverse paths are only in the pattern side

Steve Harris: reverse paths are only in the pattern side

16:36:19 <cmatheus> Sandro: don't think standardized turtle excludes things like reverse paths in sparql 1.1.

Sandro Hawke: don't think standardized turtle excludes things like reverse paths in sparql 1.1.

16:36:26 <AndyS> q-

Andy Seaborne: q-

16:36:27 <SteveH> not in CONSTRUCT { } for e.g.

Steve Harris: not in CONSTRUCT { } for e.g.

16:36:28 <AxelPolleres> q+

Axel Polleres: q+

16:36:29 <cmatheus> Ivan: sparql 1.1 doesn't include reverse paths.

Ivan Herman: sparql 1.1 doesn't include reverse paths.

16:36:37 <AndyS> Not in INSERT DATA {}

Andy Seaborne: Not in INSERT DATA {}

16:36:46 <SteveH> or CONSTRUCT

Steve Harris: or CONSTRUCT

16:36:52 <ivan> ack AxelPolleres

Ivan Herman: ack AxelPolleres

16:36:54 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

16:37:02 <cmatheus> Axel: reverse paths are in sparql 1.1.

Axel Polleres: reverse paths are in sparql 1.1.

16:37:18 <cmatheus> Sandro: not an insert or construct.  they are sort of there and not there.

Sandro Hawke: not an insert or construct. they are sort of there and not there.

16:37:23 <Guus> ack cygri

Guus Schreiber: ack cygri

16:37:23 <ivan> ack cygri

Ivan Herman: ack cygri

16:38:21 <cmatheus> Richard:charter items:syntax to support multiple graphs.  may be sufficient to support quads.  that's how it was introduced into discussion.

Richard Cyganiak: charter items:syntax to support multiple graphs. may be sufficient to support quads. that's how it was introduced into discussion.

16:39:17 <cmatheus> Guus: at F2F need to focus on quads issue.  and what kind of documents can be produced for the discussion.  suggestions for actions to be taken here?

Guus Schreiber: at F2F need to focus on quads issue. and what kind of documents can be produced for the discussion. suggestions for actions to be taken here?

16:39:47 <cmatheus> Daivid: what about a survey on what direction the group wants to take.

Manu Sporny: what about a survey on what direction the group wants to take.

16:39:50 <mischat> wonders what the dependency of quad serialisation in the turtle task force is on the graphs task force ?

Mischa Tuffield: wonders what the dependency of quad serialisation in the turtle task force is on the graphs task force ?

16:40:11 <cmatheus> Guus:  have already had these discussions.   would make more sense to summarize the ideas.

Guus Schreiber: have already had these discussions. would make more sense to summarize the ideas.

16:40:16 <mischat> q+

Mischa Tuffield: q+

16:40:20 <ivan> s/Daivid/Manu/
16:40:23 <cmatheus> ... or is that not true.

... or is that not true.

16:40:24 <mischat> zakim, unmute me

Mischa Tuffield: zakim, unmute me

16:40:24 <Zakim> mischat should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: mischat should no longer be muted

16:40:48 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

16:40:50 <cmatheus> Mischat:  there's a massive dependancy on what comes out of graphs task force.

Mischa Tuffield: there's a massive dependancy on what comes out of graphs task force.

16:40:54 <sandro> q+

Sandro Hawke: q+

16:40:58 <ivan> ack mischat

Ivan Herman: ack mischat

16:41:01 <cmatheus> ... how do people fel about that.

... how do people fel about that.

16:41:03 <mischat> zakim, mute me

Mischa Tuffield: zakim, mute me

16:41:03 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: mischat should now be muted

16:41:11 <mischat> ok

Mischa Tuffield: ok

16:41:17 <AndyS> "restore" creeps into dataset publishing.

Andy Seaborne: "restore" creeps into dataset publishing.

16:41:22 <cmatheus> Guus: possible alternative route: at F2F just focus on turtle.

Guus Schreiber: possible alternative route: at F2F just focus on turtle.

16:41:23 <ivan> ack sandro

Ivan Herman: ack sandro

16:41:51 <cmatheus> Sandro: find it hard to think of grpah issue in isolation.  thinking about in context of turtle (or somtehing) would be useful.

Sandro Hawke: find it hard to think of grpah issue in isolation. thinking about in context of turtle (or somtehing) would be useful.

16:41:59 <SteveH> +1 to sandro

Steve Harris: +1 to sandro

16:42:01 <mischat> +! to sandro

Mischa Tuffield: +! to sandro

16:42:03 <mischat> +1

Mischa Tuffield: +1

16:42:05 <ivan> +1 to sandro

Ivan Herman: +1 to sandro

16:42:05 <webr3> and that turtle is just turtle?

Nathan Rixham: and that turtle is just turtle?

16:42:08 <cmatheus> ... suggesting that the turtle issue may be handled by graph tf instead.

... suggesting that the turtle issue may be handled by graph tf instead.

16:42:09 <webr3> +1 though

Nathan Rixham: +1 though

16:42:11 <manu> +1 to sandro

Manu Sporny: +1 to sandro

16:42:16 <davidwood> +1 cannot handle in isolation

David Wood: +1 cannot handle in isolation

16:42:17 <pchampin> +1

Pierre-Antoine Champin: +1

16:42:22 <mbrunati> +1

Matteo Brunati: +1

16:42:37 <AndyS> Start with TriG

Andy Seaborne: Start with TriG

16:42:48 <webr3> yes, trig example 3 is good

Nathan Rixham: yes, trig example 3 is good

16:42:48 <cmatheus> Guus: could there be a strawman proposal for what qurtle could look like on table at F2F?

Guus Schreiber: could there be a strawman proposal for what qurtle could look like on table at F2F?

16:43:07 <mischat> do we need both TriG and N-quads ?

Mischa Tuffield: do we need both TriG and N-quads ?

16:43:11 <cmatheus> Sandro: suggests using name trig instead of qurtle.

Sandro Hawke: suggests using name trig instead of qurtle.

16:43:27 <gavin> Yes.

Gavin Carothers: Yes.

16:43:32 <SteveH> people use turtle and n-triples

Steve Harris: people use turtle and n-triples

16:43:33 <NickH> mischat: parsing performance?

Mischa Tuffield: parsing performance? [ Scribe Assist by Nicholas Humfrey ]

16:43:34 <SteveH> so, yes

Steve Harris: so, yes

16:43:35 <cmatheus> Guus:  do we need both TriG and N-Quads?

Guus Schreiber: do we need both TriG and N-Quads?

16:43:52 <mischat> q+

Mischa Tuffield: q+

16:43:54 <cmatheus> ... should we follow Sandro's suggestion for using TriG as strawman proposal?

... should we follow Sandro's suggestion for using TriG as strawman proposal?

16:43:58 <ivan> ack mischat

Ivan Herman: ack mischat

16:44:04 <sandro> (that was Andy's suggestion I was seconding)

Sandro Hawke: (that was Andy's suggestion I was seconding)

16:44:15 <LeeF> I don't see the harm in having both. I haven't seen any significant cost to the community from having both N-triples and turtle

Lee Feigenbaum: I don't see the harm in having both. I haven't seen any significant cost to the community from having both N-triples and turtle

16:44:37 <gavin> And there is significant benifit

Gavin Carothers: And there is significant benifit

16:44:52 <ivan> ACTION: mischat to make a survey on what serializations triple stores use in the wild

ACTION: mischat to make a survey on what serializations triple stores use in the wild

16:44:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-19 - Make a survey on what serializations triple stores use in the wild [on Mischa Tuffield - due 2011-03-16].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-19 - Make a survey on what serializations triple stores use in the wild [on Mischa Tuffield - due 2011-03-16].

16:44:53 <cmatheus> Mischat:  happy to go through existing implementations of data stores and n-quads.

Mischa Tuffield: happy to go through existing implementations of data stores and n-quads.

16:45:00 <LeeF> gavin, yup

Lee Feigenbaum: gavin, yup

16:45:22 <Souri> We use N-Triples quite a bit and planning to support N-Quads as well

Souripriya Das: We use N-Triples quite a bit and planning to support N-Quads as well

16:45:24 <AndyS> q+

Andy Seaborne: q+

16:45:37 <cmatheus> Guus: would a document on turtle have an appendix on how to hande graphs? or a separate doc?

Guus Schreiber: would a document on turtle have an appendix on how to hande graphs? or a separate doc?

16:45:51 <cmatheus> ... separate doc makes extra doc harder to use.

... separate doc makes extra doc harder to use.

16:45:56 <ivan> ack AndyS

Ivan Herman: ack AndyS

16:46:04 <webr3> and if you publish quads, i need a quint store, (recurse up to RDBMS)

Nathan Rixham: and if you publish quads, i need a quint store, (recurse up to RDBMS)

16:46:06 <cmatheus> Sandro: if soemone is focused just on Turtle a smaller doc is better.

Sandro Hawke: if soemone is focused just on Turtle a smaller doc is better.

16:46:16 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

16:46:40 <cmatheus> AndyS: would suggest a single doc.  if TriG doc is free standing there would be a lot that would have to be copied over.

Andy Seaborne: would suggest a single doc. if TriG doc is free standing there would be a lot that would have to be copied over.

16:46:42 <SteveH> could be 3 docs + a grammar doc

Steve Harris: could be 3 docs + a grammar doc

16:47:12 <AndyS> happy for SteveH suggestion as well.  One technical doc.

Andy Seaborne: happy for SteveH suggestion as well. One technical doc.

16:47:18 <webr3> confirm? so more-than-turtle is now part of Graphs-TF, or still Turtle TF (is turtle tf, just for "turtle" as we have it now or)?

Nathan Rixham: confirm? so more-than-turtle is now part of Graphs-TF, or still Turtle TF (is turtle tf, just for "turtle" as we have it now or)?

16:47:21 <cmatheus> Richard: seconds Andy's statement.  add n-triples to grammar.  additions would probably be quite low.  so vote for a single doc.

Richard Cyganiak: seconds Andy's statement. add n-triples to grammar. additions would probably be quite low. so vote for a single doc.

16:47:34 <cmatheus> Guus: let's have this as a dicsussion point at F2F.

Guus Schreiber: let's have this as a dicsussion point at F2F.

16:48:02 <cmatheus> David: is "more than turtle" part of Graph TF?

Nathan Rixham: is "more than turtle" part of Graph TF?

16:48:16 <cmatheus> Sandro: if it relates to graph additions then yes.

Sandro Hawke: if it relates to graph additions then yes.

16:48:28 <ivan> s/David/Nathan/
16:48:36 <cmatheus> Guus:  so TriG will be part of Graph TF discussions.

Guus Schreiber: so TriG will be part of Graph TF discussions.

16:48:47 <cmatheus> Topic: JSON TF

5. JSON TF

16:48:57 <manu> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON#Questions_to_Contemplate

Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON#Questions_to_Contemplate

16:49:02 <cmatheus> Manu: started with list of questions.

Manu Sporny: started with list of questions.

16:49:12 <manu> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON#RDF_in_JSON_Use_Cases

Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON#RDF_in_JSON_Use_Cases

16:49:13 <cmatheus> ... morphed into a set of preliminary use cases.

... morphed into a set of preliminary use cases.

16:49:31 <cmatheus> ... if ou can think of a use case that's not here please add it.

... if ou can think of a use case that's not here please add it.

16:49:50 <cmatheus> ... change into a set of rdf/json design requirements.

... changed into a set of rdf/json design requirements.

16:50:06 <cmatheus> s/change/changed/
16:50:24 <manu> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON#RDF_in_JSON_Design_Requirements

Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON#RDF_in_JSON_Design_Requirements

16:50:43 <cmatheus> Guus:  the answers to the questions seem to be divided into two groups.

Guus Schreiber: the answers to the questions seem to be divided into two groups.

16:51:01 <cmatheus> ... those in favor of user-friendly and whose for machine friendly approach.

... those in favor of user-friendly and whose for machine friendly approach.

16:51:19 <cmatheus> Manu: some confusion due to my statement of questions.

Manu Sporny: some confusion due to my statement of questions.

16:51:29 <gavin> I think the an ?s ?p ?o syntax -can- be simpler to explain and use then a complicated "Easy" to use syntax. N-Triples vs. RDF/XML ;)

Gavin Carothers: I think the an ?s ?p ?o syntax -can- be simpler to explain and use then a complicated "Easy" to use syntax. N-Triples vs. RDF/XML ;)

16:51:32 <cmatheus> ... maybe better to talk about use cases first.

... maybe better to talk about use cases first.

16:51:52 <cmatheus> Guus: for the F2F the main goal will be to decide which of the two approaches should be the major one.

Guus Schreiber: for the F2F the main goal will be to decide which of the two approaches should be the major one.

16:52:02 <cmatheus> Manu:  I believe that is the case.

Manu Sporny: I believe that is the case.

16:52:15 <cmatheus> ... should there be two serializations or just one.

... should there be two serializations or just one.

16:52:27 <cmatheus> ... some people pushing for machine readable version.

... some people pushing for machine readable version.

16:52:28 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

16:52:42 <cmatheus> ... some people argue there's not enough time to do both.

... some people argue there's not enough time to do both.

16:53:03 <cmatheus> Guus: fro chairs perspective you will have a strong push to do only one.

Guus Schreiber: fro chairs perspective you will have a strong push to do only one.

16:53:27 <ivan> ack cygri

Ivan Herman: ack cygri

16:53:29 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

16:53:32 <Zakim> -mischat

Zakim IRC Bot: -mischat

16:53:35 <cmatheus> Richard: assuming we do one syntax, should it be human friendly, or should it be machine friendly, or should it be a compromise?

Richard Cyganiak: assuming we do one syntax, should it be human friendly, or should it be machine friendly, or should it be a compromise?

16:53:38 <gavin> +q

Gavin Carothers: +q

16:53:44 <ivan> ack ivan

Ivan Herman: ack ivan

16:53:45 <cmatheus> ... which of those to work on is the main question at the moment.

... which of those to work on is the main question at the moment.

16:54:22 <cmatheus> Ivan: I asked on the mailing list but didn't get answer the question of what are the communities we are targeting.

Ivan Herman: I asked on the mailing list but didn't get answer the question of what are the communities we are targeting.

16:54:40 <tomayac> there are two strong camps in this wg for one, and for two serializations.

Thomas Steiner: there are two strong camps in this wg for one, and for two serializations.

16:54:44 <cmatheus> ... not of interest to traditional RDF communities.  they are perfectly happy with turtle and won't use JSON.

... not of interest to traditional RDF communities. they are perfectly happy with turtle and won't use JSON.

16:54:47 <manu> +1 to Ivan - RDF in JSON serialization is /not/ for those that are using RDF today w/ RDF/XML and TURTLE

Manu Sporny: +1 to Ivan - RDF in JSON serialization is /not/ for those that are using RDF today w/ RDF/XML and TURTLE

16:54:52 <gavin> -q

Gavin Carothers: -q

16:54:53 <SteveH> +1

Steve Harris: +1

16:55:08 <LeeF> Some of us are using RDF today with JSON though

Lee Feigenbaum: Some of us are using RDF today with JSON though

16:55:09 <Guus> [chair hat off]: i disagree with Ivan, we do a lot with JSON in our applications

Guus Schreiber: [chair hat off]: i disagree with Ivan, we do a lot with JSON in our applications

16:55:13 <NickH> Ivan: I disagree - parsing JSON is super fast in PHP

Ivan Herman: I disagree - parsing JSON is super fast in PHP [ Scribe Assist by Nicholas Humfrey ]

16:55:13 <cmatheus> ... the other community is not well represented in this group.

... the other community is not well represented in this group.

16:55:27 <NickH> Ivan: don't need to write a 'new' parser

Ivan Herman: don't need to write a 'new' parser [ Scribe Assist by Nicholas Humfrey ]

16:55:35 <cmatheus> Manu: what I intended with the machine-friendly/human-friendly question.

Manu Sporny: what I intended with the machine-friendly/human-friendly question.

16:55:42 <Guus> q?

Guus Schreiber: q?

16:55:42 <pchampin> q+

Pierre-Antoine Champin: q+

16:55:45 <tomayac> i consider myself part of this "other community" ;-)

Thomas Steiner: i consider myself part of this "other community" ;-)

16:55:47 <webr3> NickH, +1, it's most useful for js environments too (as in node/rhino etc)

Nathan Rixham: NickH, +1, it's most useful for js environments too (as in node/rhino etc)

16:55:56 <davidwood> [chair hat off] I have come to see use cases for both developers and Web authors as separate requirements.

David Wood: [chair hat off] I have come to see use cases for both developers and Web authors as separate requirements.

16:55:59 <gavin> +q

Gavin Carothers: +q

16:56:02 <cmatheus> ... with machine serialization you transform the rdf in to a json structure and you're don.

... with machine serialization you transform the rdf in to a json structure and you're don.

16:56:16 <pfps> I agree with Guus - the main reason I see for working with JSON here is to allow JSON stuff to feed into RDF (which I am already using)

Peter Patel-Schneider: I agree with Guus - the main reason I see for working with JSON here is to allow JSON stuff to feed into RDF (which I am already using)

16:56:25 <AndyS> That was my understanding of machine-serialization. Speaks to : "goal is to provide an RDF serialization as complete as possible"

Andy Seaborne: That was my understanding of machine-serialization. Speaks to : "goal is to provide an RDF serialization as complete as possible"

16:56:36 <cmatheus> with human friednly it's more along line of json-ld.

with human friednly it's more along line of json-ld.

16:56:48 <davidwood> machine-friendly serialization is *easy*.  Human-friendly is not.

David Wood: machine-friendly serialization is *easy*. Human-friendly is not.

16:56:57 <mbrunati> +1 to andy

Matteo Brunati: +1 to andy

16:57:08 <NickH> +1 to davidwood

Nicholas Humfrey: +1 to davidwood

16:57:08 <cmatheus> ... with machine friendly don't care how humans will use it.  with human friendly you expect users to use data like they use it today.

... with machine friendly don't care how humans will use it. with human friendly you expect users to use data like they use it today.

16:57:28 <cmatheus> ... expect things to map to associative arrays.  can use things without a heavy api.

... expect things to map to associative arrays. can use things without a heavy api.

16:57:39 <webr3> q?

Nathan Rixham: q?

16:57:48 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

16:57:57 <ivan> ack pchampin

Ivan Herman: ack pchampin

16:58:02 <mischat> zakim, [IPcaller] is me

Mischa Tuffield: zakim, [IPcaller] is me

16:58:06 <Zakim> +mischat; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +mischat; got it

16:58:09 <mischat> zakim, mute me

Mischa Tuffield: zakim, mute me

16:58:10 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: mischat should now be muted

16:58:29 <cmatheus> Webr3: probably I have with RDF serialization.  JSON is both human and machine friendly.

Nathan Rixham: probably I have with RDF serialization. JSON is both human and machine friendly.

16:58:44 <ivan> s/Web3/pchampin/

Ivan Herman: s/Web3/pchampin/ (warning: replacement failed)

16:58:47 <Guus> q?

Guus Schreiber: q?

16:58:59 <cmatheus> ... rdf is very different.  the underlining data structure are very different from the documents.

... rdf is very different. the underlining data structure are very different from the documents.

16:59:18 <cygri> maybe rename? "json developer friendly" and "j-triples++"

Richard Cyganiak: maybe rename? "json developer friendly" and "j-triples++"

16:59:30 <cmatheus> ... I like Andy's proposal to let program to handle JSON as usual without having to parse it into a real graph structure.

... I like Andy's proposal to let program to handle JSON as usual without having to parse it into a real graph structure.

16:59:35 <webr3> +1 to "rdf goggles"

Nathan Rixham: +1 to "rdf goggles"

16:59:41 <ivan> ack gavin

Ivan Herman: ack gavin

16:59:46 <Guus> ack gavin

Guus Schreiber: ack gavin

17:00:38 <pfps> +inf to the madness of RDF/XML

Peter Patel-Schneider: +inf to the madness of RDF/XML

17:00:53 <NickH> +1 to gavin!

Nicholas Humfrey: +1 to gavin!

17:01:05 <webr3> gavin, it was my understanding that human friendly meant simple kv objects that can be used without an api - not "to write easily"

Nathan Rixham: gavin, it was my understanding that human friendly meant simple kv objects that can be used without an api - not "to write easily"

17:01:21 <cmatheus> GavinL making it human friendly make is easier to author.  have a problem with the term "friendly" as applied here -- neither one seems very friendly.

GavinL making it human friendly make is easier to author. have a problem with the term "friendly" as applied here -- neither one seems very friendly.

17:01:44 <gavin> Sure, but RDF JSON is "simple" KV objects... that happen to be triples rather then more complicated data struture

Gavin Carothers: Sure, but RDF JSON is "simple" KV objects... that happen to be triples rather then more complicated data struture

17:01:54 <cmatheus> Manu: some people want to translate data in JSON.  some would like data to be immediately usable in a JS program.

Manu Sporny: some people want to translate data in JSON. some would like data to be immediately usable in a JS program.

17:02:07 <pfps> gavin:  "human friendly" made RDF/XML hostile for both humans and other machines

Gavin Carothers: "human friendly" made RDF/XML hostile for both humans and other machines [ Scribe Assist by Peter Patel-Schneider ]

17:02:19 <AndyS> My worry is the "human friendly" is unclear.  App task seems to influence the friendliness approach.  So TF is quite a lot of work (life of WG), a lot of WG energy.  Happy is doable but I'm doubtful.

Andy Seaborne: My worry is the "human friendly" is unclear. App task seems to influence the friendliness approach. So TF is quite a lot of work (life of WG), a lot of WG energy. Happy if doable but I'm doubtful.

17:02:29 <cmatheus> ... if that division exists, we have quite a bit of talking to do to come to consensus.

... if that division exists, we have quite a bit of talking to do to come to consensus.

17:02:30 <webr3> gavin, something you can do obj.name, obj.age - rather than.. well working w/ triples

Nathan Rixham: gavin, something you can do obj.name, obj.age - rather than.. well working w/ triples

17:02:34 <AndyS> s/is doable/if doable/
17:02:34 <tomayac> +1 for sandro's view  that there're 2 camps

Thomas Steiner: +1 for manu's view that there're 2 camps

17:02:45 <ivan> s/sandro/manu/
17:02:54 <pchampin> I agree about the "2 camps" view

Pierre-Antoine Champin: I agree about the "2 camps" view

17:03:01 <LeeF> I'm in the "interested in serializing triples to JSON" camp, but in fairness I'm also not terribly worried about the need for a standard here.

Lee Feigenbaum: I'm in the "interested in serializing triples to JSON" camp, but in fairness I'm also not terribly worried about the need for a standard here.

17:03:19 <SteveH> +1 to LeeF

Steve Harris: +1 to LeeF

17:03:27 <webr3> gavin, well, it wouldn't be RDF.. it would be simple objects w/ a subject - or just some rdf goggles

Nathan Rixham: gavin, well, it wouldn't be RDF.. it would be simple objects w/ a subject - or just some rdf goggles

17:03:32 <cygri> +1 to the concern about ending up with something� like RDF/XML

Richard Cyganiak: +1 to the concern about ending up with something� like RDF/XML

17:03:42 <gavin> RDFa works great :D

Gavin Carothers: RDFa works great :D

17:03:44 <AndyS> LeeF, module MIME registration.  Good to know format of incoming.

Andy Seaborne: LeeF, module MIME registration. Good to know format of incoming.

17:03:47 <tomayac> sorry, thanks for the correction, ivan

Thomas Steiner: sorry, thanks for the correction, ivan

17:03:55 <gavin> But looks like triples in the end?

Gavin Carothers: But looks like triples in the end?

17:03:55 <AndyS> LeeF, yes, modulo MIME registration.  Good to know format of incoming.

Andy Seaborne: LeeF, yes, modulo MIME registration. Good to know format of incoming.

17:04:05 <cmatheus> Manu: in RDFa would have a tree and set properties from the subject.

Manu Sporny: in RDFa would have a tree and set properties from the subject.

17:04:27 <cygri> webr3++

Richard Cyganiak: webr3++

17:04:29 <cmatheus> ... we seem to think that think about triples is easy but the rest of the world thinks about objects.

... we seem to think that think about triples is easy but the rest of the world thinks about objects.

17:04:39 <Zakim> -mischat

Zakim IRC Bot: -mischat

17:04:57 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

17:04:59 <cmatheus> ... objets have key-vaue pairs.  they map to triples but users don't see the mapping.

... objets have key-vaue pairs. they map to triples but users don't see the mapping.

17:05:09 <ivan> ack ivan

Ivan Herman: ack ivan

17:05:24 <cmatheus> Ivan: you seem to have jumped to a conclusion too quickly.

Ivan Herman: you seem to have jumped to a conclusion too quickly.

17:05:36 <cmatheus> ... the reason for the problem in acceptance is not the fact you have triples.

... the reason for the problem in acceptance is not the fact you have triples.

17:05:46 <gavin> Triples aren't hard. English majors get them in 15-20 minutes ;)

Gavin Carothers: Triples aren't hard. English majors get them in 15-20 minutes ;)

17:05:51 <davidwood> The "natural" format is the graph, not triples nor quads nor XML nor JSON, etc.  Let's not confuse serialization syntax with the graph.

David Wood: The "natural" format is the graph, not triples nor quads nor XML nor JSON, etc. Let's not confuse serialization syntax with the graph.

17:05:52 <tomayac> we should try to think json/objects, and less semantic web

Thomas Steiner: we should try to think json/objects, and less semantic web

17:05:58 <cmatheus> .. rather the dominating syntax (RDF-XML) made it very difficult to see that there are triples.

.. rather the dominating syntax (RDF-XML) made it very difficult to see that there are triples.

17:06:00 <AndyS> I disagree it hasn't worked.  RDF is not a substitution for something else.

Andy Seaborne: I disagree it hasn't worked. RDF is not a substitution for something else.

17:06:13 <manu> q+ to speak to triples.

Manu Sporny: q+ to speak to triples.

17:06:24 <ivan> ack manu

Ivan Herman: ack manu

17:06:24 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to speak to triples.

Zakim IRC Bot: manu, you wanted to speak to triples.

17:06:49 <cmatheus> Manu:  why are we trying to convince people to use triples when they are already comfortable with objects and JSON?

Manu Sporny: why are we trying to convince people to use triples when they are already comfortable with objects and JSON?

17:06:51 <pchampin> @Ivan: I agree about the problem coming partly from RDF/XML

Pierre-Antoine Champin: @Ivan: I agree about the problem coming partly from RDF/XML

17:07:05 <pchampin> but my experience is that some people also have difficulties accepting *triples*

Pierre-Antoine Champin: but my experience is that some people also have difficulties accepting *triples*

17:07:06 <gavin> 'cause objects suck at linking?

Gavin Carothers: 'cause objects suck at linking?

17:07:09 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

17:07:18 <cmatheus> ...we shouldn't be trying to retrain the world in how they express their data.

...we shouldn't be trying to retrain the world in how they express their data.

17:07:23 <davidwood> +1 to Manu.  Objects are *most appropriate* for UIs.

David Wood: +1 to Manu. Objects are *most appropriate* for UIs.

17:07:31 <ivan> ack cygri

Ivan Herman: ack cygri

17:07:39 <webr3> manu, yes, but that means /not/ changing their current data - so would be more of a data transformation map

Nathan Rixham: manu, yes, but that means /not/ changing their current data - so would be more of a data transformation map

17:08:05 <gavin> Maybe we need JSON RDF Syntax and JSON GRDDL?

Gavin Carothers: Maybe we need JSON RDF Syntax and JSON GRDDL?

17:08:06 <cmatheus> Richard: take this with a grain of salt.  you could make the same argument for designing rdf-xml the way it was deisgned.

Richard Cyganiak: take this with a grain of salt. you could make the same argument for designing rdf-xml the way it was deisgned.

17:08:17 <cmatheus> ... some people naturally think in trees.

... some people naturally think in trees.

17:08:19 <manu> q+ to discuss HTML+RDFa and why it was successful.

Manu Sporny: q+ to discuss HTML+RDFa and why it was successful.

17:08:42 <cmatheus> ... danger if we say let's just treat everything as objects and somehow we'll get out our triples.

... danger if we say let's just treat everything as objects and somehow we'll get out our triples.

17:08:59 <ivan> ack manu

Ivan Herman: ack manu

17:08:59 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to discuss HTML+RDFa and why it was successful.

Zakim IRC Bot: manu, you wanted to discuss HTML+RDFa and why it was successful.

17:09:01 <cmatheus> ...  why shouldn't I be concerned with this rdf-xml trap?

... why shouldn't I be concerned with this rdf-xml trap?

17:09:25 <tomayac> q+

Thomas Steiner: q+

17:09:29 <cmatheus> Manu:  RDFa was successful because we built it on top of html.

Manu Sporny: RDFa was successful because we built it on top of html.

17:09:36 <SteveH> RDF/XML is was very widely used too, it's just not liked

Steve Harris: RDF/XML is was very widely used too, it's just not liked

17:09:40 <SteveH> RSS1 for e.g.

Steve Harris: RSS1 for e.g.

17:09:46 <sandro> I don't agree that RDFa was more successful than RDF/XML.

Sandro Hawke: I don't agree that RDFa was more successful than RDF/XML.

17:09:49 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

17:09:56 <cmatheus> ... was very hard to sell rdf-xml to the world.  rdfa was easy to sell.  not sure why this was the case.

... was very hard to sell rdf-xml to the world. rdfa was easy to sell. not sure why this was the case.

17:09:58 <ivan> ack tomayac

Ivan Herman: ack tomayac

17:10:08 <cmatheus> Thomas:  triples are not that hard.

Thomas Steiner: triples are not that hard.

17:10:14 <AndyS> Real data is published in N-Triples.  Semi :-)

Andy Seaborne: Real data is published in N-Triples. Semi :-)

17:10:25 <LeeF> triples are pretty easy... triples + datatypes + languages + blank nodes + URIs are harder :-)

Lee Feigenbaum: triples are pretty easy... triples + datatypes + languages + blank nodes + URIs are harder :-)

17:10:45 <cmatheus> ... we at Google are seeing that once people see that the data is just triples they realize that it's not that hard.

... we at Google are seeing that once people see that the data is just triples they realize that it's not that hard.

17:10:53 <mbrunati> +1 lee and the model stuff as graph

Matteo Brunati: +1 lee and the model stuff as graph

17:10:58 <ivan> q-

Ivan Herman: q-

17:11:30 <cmatheus> ... my point is that for the rdf-json serialization we can think triples.  let's not limit ourselves and not hide the fact that it is rdf.  it is triples, nothing more nothing less.

... my point is that for the rdf-json serialization we can think triples. let's not limit ourselves and not hide the fact that it is rdf. it is triples, nothing more nothing less.

17:11:53 <cmatheus> Sandro: I'm wondering if there's candidate syntax that does what you're asking for?

Sandro Hawke: I'm wondering if there's candidate syntax that does what you're asking for?

17:12:52 <cmatheus> Thomas: haven't read them all.  elements of some do.  trying to reach a compromise I think we can come up with a bridge between the camps and the development communities.

Thomas Steiner: haven't read them all. elements of some do. trying to reach a compromise I think we can come up with a bridge between the camps and the development communities.

17:13:18 <cmatheus> Manu:  would it help to go through some of the design requirements?

Manu Sporny: would it help to go through some of the design requirements?

17:13:46 <Guus> can anybody hear me?

Guus Schreiber: can anybody hear me?

17:13:58 <davidwood> I do hope to make progress on this ftf.  Some things are just easier that way.

David Wood: I do hope to make progress on this ftf. Some things are just easier that way.

17:14:01 <Guus> -

Guus Schreiber: -

17:14:04 <davidwood> Guus: no :(

Guus Schreiber: no :( [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ]

17:14:19 <cmatheus> Thomas: this should be something to discuss at F2F.  Some of you have been here for over 10 years some like me have been here for like 1 year or so.  we should get together and try to be objective.

Thomas Steiner: this should be something to discuss at F2F. Some of you have been here for over 10 years some like me have been here for like 1 year or so. we should get together and try to be objective.

17:14:26 <Zakim> -Guus

Zakim IRC Bot: -Guus

17:14:35 <AndyS> I see Turtle as object-ish but linking is first class.  JSON only has strings.

Andy Seaborne: I see Turtle as object-ish but linking is first class. JSON only has strings.

17:14:46 <cygri> excellent point AndyS

Richard Cyganiak: excellent point AndyS



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