15:57:19 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/09-rdf-wg-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/09-rdf-wg-irc ←
15:57:28 <cmatheus> rrsagent, make records public
Christopher Matheus: rrsagent, make records public ←
15:57:50 <cmatheus> Scribe: cmatheus
(Scribe set to Christopher Matheus)
15:59:50 <AndyS> no zakim?
Andy Seaborne: no zakim? ←
16:00:04 <NickH> UK phone number seems to be working much better than it was
Nicholas Humfrey: UK phone number seems to be working much better than it was ←
16:00:20 <JFB> Hi, is the conference code really 73394 (it's not accepted)?
Jean-François Baget: Hi, is the conference code really 73394 (it's not accepted)? ←
16:00:37 <NickH> JFB: 73394 worked for me
Jean-François Baget: 73394 worked for me [ Scribe Assist by Nicholas Humfrey ] ←
16:00:38 <AZ> JFB, yes it is
Antoine Zimmermann: JFB, yes it is ←
16:00:50 <JFB> Still trying....
Jean-François Baget: Still trying.... ←
16:00:54 <davidwood> Chair: Guus Schreiber
16:00:58 <AndyS> Code worked for me but no zakim annoucements in IRC.
Andy Seaborne: Code worked for me but no zakim annoucements in IRC. ←
16:01:27 <sandro> zakim, this is rdf-wg
Sandro Hawke: zakim, this is rdf-wg ←
16:01:40 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here? ←
16:01:40 <Zakim> sorry, Guus, I don't know what conference this is
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, Guus, I don't know what conference this is ←
16:01:42 <Zakim> On IRC I see cygri, AlexHall, NickH, RRSAgent, AZ, pfps, dfensel6, gavin, cmatheus, hsbauer, Guus, JFB, LeeF, webr3, SteveH, AndyS, ivan, davidwood, yvesr, manu, manu1, sandro,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see cygri, AlexHall, NickH, RRSAgent, AZ, pfps, dfensel6, gavin, cmatheus, hsbauer, Guus, JFB, LeeF, webr3, SteveH, AndyS, ivan, davidwood, yvesr, manu, manu1, sandro, ←
16:01:45 <Zakim> ... trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: ... trackbot ←
16:01:57 <sandro> zakim, this is rdf-wg
Sandro Hawke: zakim, this is rdf-wg ←
16:01:57 <Zakim> sorry, sandro, I do not see a conference named 'rdf-wg' in progress or scheduled at this time
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, sandro, I do not see a conference named 'rdf-wg' in progress or scheduled at this time ←
16:02:00 <sandro> zakim, this is rdfwg
Sandro Hawke: zakim, this is rdfwg ←
16:02:03 <Zakim> ok, sandro; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, sandro; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM ←
16:02:10 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call? ←
16:02:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see Scott_Bauer, Dieter, ??P18, Guus, Azimmerm, ??P36, [IPcaller], AlexHall, LeeF, Sandro, zwu2, mhausenblas
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Scott_Bauer, Dieter, ??P18, Guus, Azimmerm, ??P36, [IPcaller], AlexHall, LeeF, Sandro, zwu2, mhausenblas ←
16:02:18 <cygri> zakim, mhausenblas is me
Richard Cyganiak: zakim, mhausenblas is me ←
16:02:18 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +cygri; got it ←
16:02:21 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
16:02:21 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: zwu2 should now be muted ←
16:02:26 <davidwood> I'll be a few minutes late :(
David Wood: I'll be a few minutes late :( ←
16:02:29 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPCaller is me ←
16:02:32 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it ←
16:02:34 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider
Zakim IRC Bot: +Peter_Patel-Schneider ←
16:02:39 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip ←
16:02:47 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made ←
16:02:49 <Zakim> +Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan ←
16:02:59 <Zakim> +gavinc
Zakim IRC Bot: +gavinc ←
16:03:09 <Zakim> +JeanFrancois
Zakim IRC Bot: +JeanFrancois ←
16:03:15 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
16:03:18 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: RDF WG Meeting 2011-03-09 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.09
Sandro Hawke: sandro has changed the topic to: RDF WG Meeting 2011-03-09 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.09 ←
16:03:19 <webr3> zakim, i am IPcaller
Nathan Rixham: zakim, i am IPcaller ←
16:03:19 <Zakim> +Luca
Zakim IRC Bot: +Luca ←
16:03:24 <manu> zakim, code?
Manu Sporny: zakim, code? ←
16:03:29 <cmatheus> Topic: Admin
16:03:30 <sandro> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.09
16:03:31 <Zakim> ok, webr3, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, webr3, I now associate you with [IPcaller] ←
16:03:37 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), manu
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), manu ←
16:03:40 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
16:03:42 <webr3> +1
Nathan Rixham: +1 ←
16:03:45 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres
Zakim IRC Bot: +AxelPolleres ←
16:03:46 <cmatheus> Guus: Approve agenda
Guus Schreiber: Approve agenda ←
16:03:46 <JFB> +1
Jean-François Baget: +1 ←
16:03:53 <Zakim> +davidwood
Zakim IRC Bot: +davidwood ←
16:03:56 <sandro> PROPOSED: accept previous minutes http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-03-02
PROPOSED: accept previous minutes http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-03-02 ←
16:04:00 <cmatheus> ... minutes accepted
... minutes accepted ←
16:04:04 <sandro> RESOLVED: accept previous minutes http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-03-02
RESOLVED: accept previous minutes http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-03-02 ←
16:04:09 <Zakim> +??P55
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P55 ←
16:04:11 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller.a] ←
16:04:15 <manu> zakim, I am ??P55
Manu Sporny: zakim, I am ??P55 ←
16:04:15 <Zakim> +manu; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +manu; got it ←
16:04:19 <cmatheus> ... day light savings time
... day light savings time ←
16:04:25 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.aa]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller.aa] ←
16:04:45 <mbrunati> zakim,
Matteo Brunati: zakim, ←
16:04:45 <Zakim> I don't understand '', mbrunati
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand '', mbrunati ←
16:04:56 <cmatheus> ... custom: follow american time
... custom: follow american time ←
16:05:03 <Zakim> + +1.404.978.aaaa - is perhaps Dzung_Tran?
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.404.978.aaaa - is perhaps Dzung_Tran? ←
16:05:09 <mbrunati> zakim, [IPcaller.aa] is me
Matteo Brunati: zakim, [IPcaller.aa] is me ←
16:05:09 <Zakim> +mbrunati; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +mbrunati; got it ←
16:05:19 <sandro> Guus: For European folks, the next two telecons will be an hour early.
Guus Schreiber: For European folks, the next two telecons will be an hour early. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:05:38 <davidwood> We need an international standard for DST…
David Wood: We need an international standard for DST… ←
16:05:42 <Zakim> +Souri
Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri ←
16:05:48 <cmatheus> Guus: next telecoms - note time differences
Guus Schreiber: next telecoms - note time differences ←
16:05:55 <cmatheus> ... action item review
... action item review ←
16:05:59 <gavin> davidwood, yes, to banish it forever and never speak of it again
Gavin Carothers: davidwood, yes, to banish it forever and never speak of it again ←
16:06:01 <cmatheus> Topic: Action Items
16:06:01 <NickH> Zakim, ??P36 is me
Nicholas Humfrey: Zakim, ??P36 is me ←
16:06:01 <Zakim> +NickH; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +NickH; got it ←
16:06:02 <sandro> davidwood, that could never work for north-vs-southern hemisphere, at least. :-)
Sandro Hawke: davidwood, that could never work for north-vs-southern hemisphere, at least. :-) ←
16:06:04 <mbrunati> q-
Matteo Brunati: q- ←
16:06:11 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
16:06:23 <Zakim> +??P49
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P49 ←
16:06:28 <Guus> ack Luca
Guus Schreiber: ack Luca ←
16:06:29 <SteveH> Zakim, who's on the phone?
Steve Harris: Zakim, who's on the phone? ←
16:06:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see Scott_Bauer, Dieter, ??P18, Guus, Azimmerm, NickH, AndyS, AlexHall, LeeF, Sandro, zwu2 (muted), cygri, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Ivan, gavinc, JeanFrancois,
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Scott_Bauer, Dieter, ??P18, Guus, Azimmerm, NickH, AndyS, AlexHall, LeeF, Sandro, zwu2 (muted), cygri, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Ivan, gavinc, JeanFrancois, ←
16:06:33 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is talking? ←
16:06:33 <Zakim> ... [IPcaller], pchampin, AxelPolleres, davidwood, manu, [IPcaller.a], mbrunati, Dzung_Tran?, Souri, ??P49
Zakim IRC Bot: ... [IPcaller], pchampin, AxelPolleres, davidwood, manu, [IPcaller.a], mbrunati, Dzung_Tran?, Souri, ??P49 ←
16:06:35 <mischat> zakim, ??P49 is me
Mischa Tuffield: zakim, ??P49 is me ←
16:06:35 <Zakim> +mischat; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +mischat; got it ←
16:06:41 <mischat> zakim, mute me
Mischa Tuffield: zakim, mute me ←
16:06:41 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: mischat should now be muted ←
16:06:45 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (13%)
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (13%) ←
16:07:04 <SteveH> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
Steve Harris: Zakim, [IPcaller] is me ←
16:07:04 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +SteveH; got it ←
16:07:07 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
16:07:13 <cmatheus> ... Action 7
16:07:23 <webr3> -> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/GraphConceptTerminology
Nathan Rixham: -> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/GraphConceptTerminology ←
16:07:25 <cygri> ACTION-7?
16:07:25 <trackbot> ACTION-7 -- Nathan Rixham to write a wiki page clarifying the different "graph" concepts -- due 2011-03-02 -- PENDINGREVIEW
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-7 -- Nathan Rixham to write a wiki page clarifying the different "graph" concepts -- due 2011-03-02 -- PENDINGREVIEW ←
16:07:25 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/7
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/7 ←
16:07:26 <cmatheus> ... Nathan wiki page on graph concepts
... Nathan wiki page on graph concepts ←
16:07:32 <cmatheus> Nathan: done
Nathan Rixham: done ←
16:07:50 <sandro> close ACTION-7
Sandro Hawke: close ACTION-7 ←
16:07:50 <trackbot> ACTION-7 Write a wiki page clarifying the different "graph" concepts closed
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-7 Write a wiki page clarifying the different "graph" concepts closed ←
16:07:51 <AxelPolleres> close ACTION-7
Axel Polleres: close ACTION-7 ←
16:07:51 <trackbot> ACTION-7 Write a wiki page clarifying the different "graph" concepts closed
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-7 Write a wiki page clarifying the different "graph" concepts closed ←
16:07:56 <cmatheus> ... Sandro, can you mark action 7 as closed
... Sandro, can you mark ACTION-7 as closed ←
16:08:04 <cmatheus> Resolved: Action 7 closed
16:08:08 <sandro> ACTION-12?
16:08:08 <trackbot> ACTION-12 -- Guus Schreiber to talk to paul groth to get a provenance use case for graphs -- due 2011-03-02 -- PENDINGREVIEW
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-12 -- Guus Schreiber to talk to paul groth to get a provenance use case for graphs -- due 2011-03-02 -- PENDINGREVIEW ←
16:08:08 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/12
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/12 ←
16:08:16 <cmatheus> ... action 12
16:08:21 <sandro> close ACTION-12
Sandro Hawke: close ACTION-12 ←
16:08:21 <trackbot> ACTION-12 Talk to paul groth to get a provenance use case for graphs closed
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-12 Talk to paul groth to get a provenance use case for graphs closed ←
16:08:22 <cmatheus> ... closed
... closed ←
16:08:32 <sandro> ACTION-15?
16:08:32 <trackbot> ACTION-15 -- Guus Schreiber to make hotel suggestions for FTF1 -- due 2011-03-09 -- PENDINGREVIEW
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-15 -- Guus Schreiber to make hotel suggestions for FTF1 -- due 2011-03-09 -- PENDINGREVIEW ←
16:08:32 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/15
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/15 ←
16:08:45 <cmatheus> ... action 15 - hotel suggestions - done.
... ACTION-15 - hotel suggestions - done. ←
16:08:55 <sandro> close ACTION-15
Sandro Hawke: close ACTION-15 ←
16:08:55 <trackbot> ACTION-15 Make hotel suggestions for FTF1 closed
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-15 Make hotel suggestions for FTF1 closed ←
16:09:00 <cmatheus> Resolved: Action 12 closed
16:09:19 <cmatheus> Resolved: Action 15 closed
16:09:23 <sandro> guus: No hotels at CWI, but three groups close by. not a big city. at most 35 minutes.
Guus Schreiber: No hotels at CWI, but three groups close by. not a big city. at most 35 minutes. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:09:28 <manu> I have created a wiki page attempting to collect design requirements for RDF in JSON here: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON#RDF_in_JSON_Design_Requirements
Manu Sporny: I have created a wiki page attempting to collect design requirements for RDF in JSON here: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON#RDF_in_JSON_Design_Requirements ←
16:09:37 <manu> (That's related to ACTION-16)
Manu Sporny: (That's related to ACTION-16) ←
16:09:41 <sandro> cmatheus, please don't use "Resolved" for actions.
Sandro Hawke: cmatheus, please don't use "Resolved" for actions. ←
16:09:54 <cmatheus> sandro, got it.
sandro, got it. ←
16:10:10 <sandro> action-18?
16:10:10 <trackbot> ACTION-18 -- Ivan Herman to establish a wiki page for the FTF1 agenda and list initial content -- due 2011-03-09 -- PENDINGREVIEW
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-18 -- Ivan Herman to establish a wiki page for the FTF1 agenda and list initial content -- due 2011-03-09 -- PENDINGREVIEW ←
16:10:10 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/18
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/18 ←
16:10:15 <sandro> close action-18
Sandro Hawke: close ACTION-18 ←
16:10:15 <trackbot> ACTION-18 Establish a wiki page for the FTF1 agenda and list initial content closed
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-18 Establish a wiki page for the FTF1 agenda and list initial content closed ←
16:10:22 <cmatheus> ... Action 18 - closed.
16:10:48 <cmatheus> ... Dan Brickley action on named graph. not on call.
... Dan Brickley action on named graph. not on call. ←
16:10:54 <sandro> action-5?
16:10:54 <trackbot> ACTION-5 -- Yves Raimond to draft a use case for named graphs from BBC work -- due 2011-03-02 -- OPEN
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-5 -- Yves Raimond to draft a use case for named graphs from BBC work -- due 2011-03-02 -- OPEN ←
16:10:54 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/5
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/5 ←
16:11:03 <cmatheus> ... Action 5 remains open
16:11:35 <cmatheus> ... Action for Pat -- regrets on being out for ten days.
... Action for Pat -- regrets on being out for ten days. ←
16:11:38 <mischat> zakim, unmute me
Mischa Tuffield: zakim, unmute me ←
16:11:38 <Zakim> mischat should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: mischat should no longer be muted ←
16:11:47 <cmatheus> ... Mishat to provided ...
... Mishat to provided ... ←
16:12:05 <sandro> close action-11
Sandro Hawke: close ACTION-11 ←
16:12:06 <trackbot> ACTION-11 Provide Garlik pov re: use-cases with SteveH closed
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-11 Provide Garlik pov re: use-cases with SteveH closed ←
16:12:09 <cmatheus> Mischat: turned action into pending reviews.
Mischa Tuffield: turned action into pending reviews. ←
16:12:12 <mischat> zakim, mute me
Mischa Tuffield: zakim, mute me ←
16:12:12 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: mischat should now be muted ←
16:12:18 <sandro> action-16?
16:12:18 <trackbot> ACTION-16 -- Manu Sporny to summarize positions that folks have taken via the mailing list onto the wiki in an attempt to figure out which document should be used as a starting point for the RDF in JSON work. -- due 2011-03-09 -- OPEN
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-16 -- Manu Sporny to summarize positions that folks have taken via the mailing list onto the wiki in an attempt to figure out which document should be used as a starting point for the RDF in JSON work. -- due 2011-03-09 -- OPEN ←
16:12:18 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/16
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/16 ←
16:12:27 <cmatheus> Guus: action closed.
Guus Schreiber: action closed. ←
16:12:59 <cmatheus> Manu: JSon - summarization of positions. still under discussion.
Manu Sporny: JSon - summarization of positions. still under discussion. ←
16:13:06 <sandro> close action-16
Sandro Hawke: close ACTION-16 ←
16:13:06 <trackbot> ACTION-16 Summarize positions that folks have taken via the mailing list onto the wiki in an attempt to figure out which document should be used as a starting point for the RDF in JSON work. closed
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-16 Summarize positions that folks have taken via the mailing list onto the wiki in an attempt to figure out which document should be used as a starting point for the RDF in JSON work. closed ←
16:13:18 <cmatheus> Guus: you did your action item and it can be closed.
Guus Schreiber: you did your action item and it can be closed. ←
16:13:22 <sandro> action-17?
16:13:22 <trackbot> ACTION-17 -- Gavin Carothers to try and produce a digram based on the g-box, g-snap, g-text model from Sandro's email and this conversation -- due 2011-03-16 -- OPEN
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-17 -- Gavin Carothers to try and produce a digram based on the g-box, g-snap, g-text model from Sandro's email and this conversation -- due 2011-03-16 -- OPEN ←
16:13:22 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/17
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/17 ←
16:13:37 <cmatheus> ... action 17: g-box diagram
... ACTION-17: g-box diagram ←
16:14:00 <cygri> it was gavin speaking
Richard Cyganiak: it was gavin speaking ←
16:14:02 <cmatheus> Gavin: haven had time to get to it this week.
Gavin Carothers: haven had time to get to it this week. ←
16:14:03 <sandro> gavin: I'll do it soon and put it on the wiki page of graph concepts
Gavin Carothers: I'll do it soon and put it on the wiki page of graph concepts [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:14:21 <cmatheus> Guus: keep open, hopefully close next week.
Guus Schreiber: keep open, hopefully close next week. ←
16:14:36 <cmatheus> ... ends discussionon actionitems
... ends discussionon actionitems ←
16:15:01 <cmatheus> Topic: F2F1
16:15:05 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
16:15:22 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1
Mischa Tuffield: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1 ←
16:15:30 <cmatheus> Guus: please indicate whether you are attending on wiki page.
Guus Schreiber: please indicate whether you are attending on wiki page. ←
16:15:45 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
16:15:48 <cmatheus> ... need a page to track regrets.
... need a page to track regrets. ←
16:16:16 <ivan> q-
Ivan Herman: q- ←
16:16:58 <cmatheus> Ivan: needs to give list of all participants. if you don't provide a name you may not be permitted in.
Ivan Herman: needs to give list of all participants. if you don't provide a name you may not be permitted in. ←
16:17:00 <davidwood> Regrets section added to http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1
David Wood: Regrets section added to http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1 ←
16:17:18 <cmatheus> ... will have two meeting rooms plus my office.
... will have two meeting rooms plus my office. ←
16:17:39 <cmatheus> Guus: moving on to the agenda for F2F
Guus Schreiber: moving on to the agenda for F2F ←
16:18:20 <cmatheus> ... proposal: use day one to discussion items on table for task forces and identify what's need to be done for first draft.
... proposal: use day one to discussion items on table for task forces and identify what's need to be done for first draft. ←
16:18:46 <cmatheus> ... structure: reporting, discussion, planning
... structure: reporting, discussion, planning ←
16:19:09 <cmatheus> ... dinner in the evening by university. lunch offered by Talis.
... dinner in the evening by university. lunch offered by Talis. ←
16:19:31 <cmatheus> ... need to be more specific on topics. can we live with this layout?
... need to be more specific on topics. can we live with this layout? ←
16:19:37 <cygri> +1
Richard Cyganiak: +1 ←
16:19:41 <JFB> +1
Jean-François Baget: +1 ←
16:19:42 <manu> +1 for F2F1 Agenda
Manu Sporny: +1 for F2F1 Agenda ←
16:19:58 <mbrunati> +1
Matteo Brunati: +1 ←
16:20:04 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
16:20:05 <cmatheus> ... F2F1 agenda approved.
... F2F1 agenda approved. ←
16:20:07 <pfps> not much more can be done at this time to figure out agenda for F2F1
Peter Patel-Schneider: not much more can be done at this time to figure out agenda for F2F1 ←
16:20:14 <tomayac> +1
Thomas Steiner: +1 ←
16:20:26 <cmatheus> ... next two weeks we will fill in the details.
... next two weeks we will fill in the details. ←
16:20:35 <cmatheus> Topic: Task Forces
16:21:15 <cmatheus> Guus: general remark: very happy to see so many threads.
Guus Schreiber: general remark: very happy to see so many threads. ←
16:21:27 <cmatheus> ... some worry that we might go outside the charter.
... some worry that we might go outside the charter. ←
16:21:42 <cmatheus> ... over next few weeks we need to start restricting outselves.
... over next few weeks we need to start restricting outselves. ←
16:21:49 <mischat> s/Guss/Guus/
Mischa Tuffield: s/Guss/Guus/ (warning: replacement failed) ←
16:21:54 <cmatheus> ... must need way to manage things over coming year.
... must need way to manage things over coming year. ←
16:22:00 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
16:22:07 <cmatheus> ... can't do everything we've talked about over last two weeks.
... can't do everything we've talked about over last two weeks. ←
16:22:14 <cmatheus> ... any comments?
... any comments? ←
16:22:50 <cmatheus> Richard: good to have broad discussion to get issues on table, but also important to make clear what charter is. what it allows us to do and what it doesn't.
Richard Cyganiak: good to have broad discussion to get issues on table, but also important to make clear what charter is. what it allows us to do and what it doesn't. ←
16:23:12 <cmatheus> ... would be useful for thos ewho wrote the charter to speak up when things out of scope come up.
... would be useful for thos ewho wrote the charter to speak up when things out of scope come up. ←
16:23:14 <sandro> q+ to say writers intent doesn't matter....
Sandro Hawke: q+ to say writers intent doesn't matter.... ←
16:23:30 <cygri> q-
Richard Cyganiak: q- ←
16:23:55 <sandro> q-
Sandro Hawke: q- ←
16:24:10 <cmatheus> Guus: agreed, we need to start limiting discussions. point well taken.
Guus Schreiber: agreed, we need to start limiting discussions. point well taken. ←
16:25:09 <cmatheus> David: we don't want to let the conversation to get out of control but people should feel free to make proposals and voice opinions.
David Wood: we don't want to let the conversation to get out of control but people should feel free to make proposals and voice opinions. ←
16:25:13 <AndyS> Are changes that affect other RECs in or out of scope? (by intent - words do no restrict this WG)
Andy Seaborne: Are changes that affect other RECs in or out of scope? (by intent - words do no restrict this WG) ←
16:25:21 <cmatheus> Guus: moving on to task force discussions.
Guus Schreiber: moving on to task force discussions. ←
16:25:36 <cmatheus> ... starting with Turtle TF
... starting with Turtle TF ←
16:25:38 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Turtle
Mischa Tuffield: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Turtle ←
16:26:05 <cmatheus> ... potential deliverables for Turtle work.
... potential deliverables for Turtle work. ←
16:26:12 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Turtle/Proposals
Richard Cyganiak: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Turtle/Proposals ←
16:26:17 <cmatheus> Richard: on background of the wiki page -- I created it.
Richard Cyganiak: on background of the wiki page -- I created it. ←
16:27:01 <cmatheus> ... some terms in discussions where captured in wiki page.
... some terms in discussions where captured in wiki page. ←
16:27:47 <manu> +1 to Qurtle, N-Quads++
Manu Sporny: +1 to Qurtle, N-Quads++ ←
16:27:58 <manu> -1 to everything else (current opinion, may change)
Manu Sporny: -1 to everything else (current opinion, may change) ←
16:28:01 <cmatheus> ... summary: make minimal fixes (e.g. aligning with sparql); super turtle would add some additional properties; qurtle would add quad support.
... summary: make minimal fixes (e.g. aligning with sparql); super turtle would add some additional properties; qurtle would add quad support. ←
16:28:19 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
16:28:26 <sandro> I suggest the names N-Triples2 and N-Quads2 are more descriptive than "++" since it's not backward compatible.
Sandro Hawke: I suggest the names N-Triples2 and N-Quads2 are more descriptive than "++" since it's not backward compatible. ←
16:29:02 <cmatheus> ... still under discussion. n-triple++ could be recognized and turned into a minimal format for exchanging triples.
... still under discussion. n-triple++ could be recognized and turned into a minimal format for exchanging triples. ←
16:29:25 <cmatheus> ... n-quads - take current proposal and add option for naming contexts/graphs.
... n-quads - take current proposal and add option for naming contexts/graphs. ←
16:29:35 <gavin> Sandro, why would it not parse current n-triples/n-quads?
Gavin Carothers: Sandro, why would it not parse current n-triples/n-quads? ←
16:29:36 <cmatheus> ... idea is to turn it into a specification.
... idea is to turn it into a specification. ←
16:29:52 <cmatheus> ... has been said that fourth element should be required.
... has been said that fourth element should be required. ←
16:30:28 <cmatheus> ... another proposal: rdf-tuples like csv. more like a serialization of a sparql result set.
... another proposal: rdf-tuples like csv. more like a serialization of a sparql result set. ←
16:30:37 <sandro> gavin, I suppose it could be, but with utf-8 I'd exepect the \uXXXXXXXX syntax to be removed.
Sandro Hawke: gavin, I suppose it could be, but with utf-8 I'd exepect the \uXXXXXXXX syntax to be removed. ←
16:30:54 <cmatheus> Ivan: comment 1: maybe worth adding what the media types are.
Ivan Herman: comment 1: maybe worth adding what the media types are. ←
16:31:10 <SteveH> sandro, it's useful for non-UTF-8 systems, like some version of emacs
Steve Harris: sandro, it's useful for non-UTF-8 systems, like some version of emacs ←
16:31:34 <cmatheus> ... qurtle should be seperated by media types
... qurtle should be seperated by media types ←
16:31:47 <tomayac> +1 for having different media types
Thomas Steiner: +1 for having different media types ←
16:31:55 <SteveH> +1
Steve Harris: +1 ←
16:31:56 <AndyS> sandro, \uXXXX and \UXXXXXXXX in Turtle today.
Andy Seaborne: sandro, \uXXXX and \UXXXXXXXX in Turtle today. ←
16:31:59 <cmatheus> ... comment 2: on current page, rdf-tuples is not mentioned in the charter.
... comment 2: on current page, rdf-tuples is not mentioned in the charter. ←
16:32:23 <cmatheus> ... whole issue around n-triples and their extension is not in the charter either.
... whole issue around n-triples and their extension is not in the charter either. ←
16:32:37 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is talking? ←
16:32:49 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: gavinc (70%), Ivan (8%)
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: gavinc (70%), Ivan (8%) ←
16:33:02 <cmatheus> Gavin: charter speaks of revising existing notes and other parts of RDF
Gavin Carothers: charter speaks of revising existing notes and other parts of RDF ←
16:33:22 <cmatheus> Ivan: yes, it talks of that on the edge. but rdf-tuples is not in the charter.
Ivan Herman: yes, it talks of that on the edge. but rdf-tuples is not in the charter. ←
16:33:35 <cmatheus> ... n-triples could be squeezed a little bit.
... n-triples could be squeezed a little bit. ←
16:33:49 <gavin> +q
Gavin Carothers: +q ←
16:34:07 <Guus> ack ivan
Guus Schreiber: ack ivan ←
16:34:33 <cmatheus> Ivan: strictly speaking the charter may exclude super-turtle.
Ivan Herman: strictly speaking the charter may exclude super-turtle. ←
16:34:42 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
16:34:54 <Guus> ack gavin
Guus Schreiber: ack gavin ←
16:35:10 <cmatheus> ... charter says standardize turtle and add graph support. doesn't include extensions beyond graph support.
... charter says standardize turtle and add graph support. doesn't include extensions beyond graph support. ←
16:35:44 <Guus> ack samdro
Guus Schreiber: ack samdro ←
16:35:51 <cmatheus> Gavin: n-turtle and quads on list because they could use the additional symbol.
Gavin Carothers: n-turtle and quads on list because they could use the additional symbol. ←
16:35:52 <ivan> ack sandro
Ivan Herman: ack sandro ←
16:35:54 <Guus> ack sandro
Guus Schreiber: ack sandro ←
16:36:00 <pchampin> +1 to standardize tokens
Pierre-Antoine Champin: +1 to standardize tokens ←
16:36:10 <AndyS> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
16:36:19 <SteveH> reverse paths are only in the pattern side
Steve Harris: reverse paths are only in the pattern side ←
16:36:19 <cmatheus> Sandro: don't think standardized turtle excludes things like reverse paths in sparql 1.1.
Sandro Hawke: don't think standardized turtle excludes things like reverse paths in sparql 1.1. ←
16:36:26 <AndyS> q-
Andy Seaborne: q- ←
16:36:27 <SteveH> not in CONSTRUCT { } for e.g.
Steve Harris: not in CONSTRUCT { } for e.g. ←
16:36:28 <AxelPolleres> q+
Axel Polleres: q+ ←
16:36:29 <cmatheus> Ivan: sparql 1.1 doesn't include reverse paths.
Ivan Herman: sparql 1.1 doesn't include reverse paths. ←
16:36:37 <AndyS> Not in INSERT DATA {}
Andy Seaborne: Not in INSERT DATA {} ←
16:36:46 <SteveH> or CONSTRUCT
Steve Harris: or CONSTRUCT ←
16:36:52 <ivan> ack AxelPolleres
Ivan Herman: ack AxelPolleres ←
16:36:54 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
16:37:02 <cmatheus> Axel: reverse paths are in sparql 1.1.
Axel Polleres: reverse paths are in sparql 1.1. ←
16:37:18 <cmatheus> Sandro: not an insert or construct. they are sort of there and not there.
Sandro Hawke: not an insert or construct. they are sort of there and not there. ←
16:37:23 <Guus> ack cygri
Guus Schreiber: ack cygri ←
16:37:23 <ivan> ack cygri
Ivan Herman: ack cygri ←
16:38:21 <cmatheus> Richard:charter items:syntax to support multiple graphs. may be sufficient to support quads. that's how it was introduced into discussion.
Richard Cyganiak: charter items:syntax to support multiple graphs. may be sufficient to support quads. that's how it was introduced into discussion. ←
16:39:17 <cmatheus> Guus: at F2F need to focus on quads issue. and what kind of documents can be produced for the discussion. suggestions for actions to be taken here?
Guus Schreiber: at F2F need to focus on quads issue. and what kind of documents can be produced for the discussion. suggestions for actions to be taken here? ←
16:39:47 <cmatheus> Daivid: what about a survey on what direction the group wants to take.
Manu Sporny: what about a survey on what direction the group wants to take. ←
16:39:50 <mischat> wonders what the dependency of quad serialisation in the turtle task force is on the graphs task force ?
Mischa Tuffield: wonders what the dependency of quad serialisation in the turtle task force is on the graphs task force ? ←
16:40:11 <cmatheus> Guus: have already had these discussions. would make more sense to summarize the ideas.
Guus Schreiber: have already had these discussions. would make more sense to summarize the ideas. ←
16:40:16 <mischat> q+
Mischa Tuffield: q+ ←
16:40:20 <ivan> s/Daivid/Manu/
16:40:23 <cmatheus> ... or is that not true.
... or is that not true. ←
16:40:24 <mischat> zakim, unmute me
Mischa Tuffield: zakim, unmute me ←
16:40:24 <Zakim> mischat should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: mischat should no longer be muted ←
16:40:48 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
16:40:50 <cmatheus> Mischat: there's a massive dependancy on what comes out of graphs task force.
Mischa Tuffield: there's a massive dependancy on what comes out of graphs task force. ←
16:40:54 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
16:40:58 <ivan> ack mischat
Ivan Herman: ack mischat ←
16:41:01 <cmatheus> ... how do people fel about that.
... how do people fel about that. ←
16:41:03 <mischat> zakim, mute me
Mischa Tuffield: zakim, mute me ←
16:41:03 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: mischat should now be muted ←
16:41:11 <mischat> ok
Mischa Tuffield: ok ←
16:41:17 <AndyS> "restore" creeps into dataset publishing.
Andy Seaborne: "restore" creeps into dataset publishing. ←
16:41:22 <cmatheus> Guus: possible alternative route: at F2F just focus on turtle.
Guus Schreiber: possible alternative route: at F2F just focus on turtle. ←
16:41:23 <ivan> ack sandro
Ivan Herman: ack sandro ←
16:41:51 <cmatheus> Sandro: find it hard to think of grpah issue in isolation. thinking about in context of turtle (or somtehing) would be useful.
Sandro Hawke: find it hard to think of grpah issue in isolation. thinking about in context of turtle (or somtehing) would be useful. ←
16:41:59 <SteveH> +1 to sandro
Steve Harris: +1 to sandro ←
16:42:01 <mischat> +! to sandro
Mischa Tuffield: +! to sandro ←
16:42:03 <mischat> +1
Mischa Tuffield: +1 ←
16:42:05 <ivan> +1 to sandro
Ivan Herman: +1 to sandro ←
16:42:05 <webr3> and that turtle is just turtle?
Nathan Rixham: and that turtle is just turtle? ←
16:42:08 <cmatheus> ... suggesting that the turtle issue may be handled by graph tf instead.
... suggesting that the turtle issue may be handled by graph tf instead. ←
16:42:09 <webr3> +1 though
Nathan Rixham: +1 though ←
16:42:11 <manu> +1 to sandro
Manu Sporny: +1 to sandro ←
16:42:16 <davidwood> +1 cannot handle in isolation
David Wood: +1 cannot handle in isolation ←
16:42:17 <pchampin> +1
16:42:22 <mbrunati> +1
Matteo Brunati: +1 ←
16:42:37 <AndyS> Start with TriG
Andy Seaborne: Start with TriG ←
16:42:48 <webr3> yes, trig example 3 is good
Nathan Rixham: yes, trig example 3 is good ←
16:42:48 <cmatheus> Guus: could there be a strawman proposal for what qurtle could look like on table at F2F?
Guus Schreiber: could there be a strawman proposal for what qurtle could look like on table at F2F? ←
16:43:07 <mischat> do we need both TriG and N-quads ?
Mischa Tuffield: do we need both TriG and N-quads ? ←
16:43:11 <cmatheus> Sandro: suggests using name trig instead of qurtle.
Sandro Hawke: suggests using name trig instead of qurtle. ←
16:43:27 <gavin> Yes.
Gavin Carothers: Yes. ←
16:43:32 <SteveH> people use turtle and n-triples
Steve Harris: people use turtle and n-triples ←
16:43:33 <NickH> mischat: parsing performance?
Mischa Tuffield: parsing performance? [ Scribe Assist by Nicholas Humfrey ] ←
16:43:34 <SteveH> so, yes
Steve Harris: so, yes ←
16:43:35 <cmatheus> Guus: do we need both TriG and N-Quads?
Guus Schreiber: do we need both TriG and N-Quads? ←
16:43:52 <mischat> q+
Mischa Tuffield: q+ ←
16:43:54 <cmatheus> ... should we follow Sandro's suggestion for using TriG as strawman proposal?
... should we follow Sandro's suggestion for using TriG as strawman proposal? ←
16:43:58 <ivan> ack mischat
Ivan Herman: ack mischat ←
16:44:04 <sandro> (that was Andy's suggestion I was seconding)
Sandro Hawke: (that was Andy's suggestion I was seconding) ←
16:44:15 <LeeF> I don't see the harm in having both. I haven't seen any significant cost to the community from having both N-triples and turtle
Lee Feigenbaum: I don't see the harm in having both. I haven't seen any significant cost to the community from having both N-triples and turtle ←
16:44:37 <gavin> And there is significant benifit
Gavin Carothers: And there is significant benifit ←
16:44:52 <ivan> ACTION: mischat to make a survey on what serializations triple stores use in the wild
ACTION: mischat to make a survey on what serializations triple stores use in the wild ←
16:44:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-19 - Make a survey on what serializations triple stores use in the wild [on Mischa Tuffield - due 2011-03-16].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-19 - Make a survey on what serializations triple stores use in the wild [on Mischa Tuffield - due 2011-03-16]. ←
16:44:53 <cmatheus> Mischat: happy to go through existing implementations of data stores and n-quads.
Mischa Tuffield: happy to go through existing implementations of data stores and n-quads. ←
16:45:00 <LeeF> gavin, yup
Lee Feigenbaum: gavin, yup ←
16:45:22 <Souri> We use N-Triples quite a bit and planning to support N-Quads as well
Souripriya Das: We use N-Triples quite a bit and planning to support N-Quads as well ←
16:45:24 <AndyS> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
16:45:37 <cmatheus> Guus: would a document on turtle have an appendix on how to hande graphs? or a separate doc?
Guus Schreiber: would a document on turtle have an appendix on how to hande graphs? or a separate doc? ←
16:45:51 <cmatheus> ... separate doc makes extra doc harder to use.
... separate doc makes extra doc harder to use. ←
16:45:56 <ivan> ack AndyS
Ivan Herman: ack AndyS ←
16:46:04 <webr3> and if you publish quads, i need a quint store, (recurse up to RDBMS)
Nathan Rixham: and if you publish quads, i need a quint store, (recurse up to RDBMS) ←
16:46:06 <cmatheus> Sandro: if soemone is focused just on Turtle a smaller doc is better.
Sandro Hawke: if soemone is focused just on Turtle a smaller doc is better. ←
16:46:16 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
16:46:40 <cmatheus> AndyS: would suggest a single doc. if TriG doc is free standing there would be a lot that would have to be copied over.
Andy Seaborne: would suggest a single doc. if TriG doc is free standing there would be a lot that would have to be copied over. ←
16:46:42 <SteveH> could be 3 docs + a grammar doc
Steve Harris: could be 3 docs + a grammar doc ←
16:47:12 <AndyS> happy for SteveH suggestion as well. One technical doc.
Andy Seaborne: happy for SteveH suggestion as well. One technical doc. ←
16:47:18 <webr3> confirm? so more-than-turtle is now part of Graphs-TF, or still Turtle TF (is turtle tf, just for "turtle" as we have it now or)?
Nathan Rixham: confirm? so more-than-turtle is now part of Graphs-TF, or still Turtle TF (is turtle tf, just for "turtle" as we have it now or)? ←
16:47:21 <cmatheus> Richard: seconds Andy's statement. add n-triples to grammar. additions would probably be quite low. so vote for a single doc.
Richard Cyganiak: seconds Andy's statement. add n-triples to grammar. additions would probably be quite low. so vote for a single doc. ←
16:47:34 <cmatheus> Guus: let's have this as a dicsussion point at F2F.
Guus Schreiber: let's have this as a dicsussion point at F2F. ←
16:48:02 <cmatheus> David: is "more than turtle" part of Graph TF?
Nathan Rixham: is "more than turtle" part of Graph TF? ←
16:48:16 <cmatheus> Sandro: if it relates to graph additions then yes.
Sandro Hawke: if it relates to graph additions then yes. ←
16:48:28 <ivan> s/David/Nathan/
16:48:36 <cmatheus> Guus: so TriG will be part of Graph TF discussions.
Guus Schreiber: so TriG will be part of Graph TF discussions. ←
16:48:47 <cmatheus> Topic: JSON TF
16:48:57 <manu> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON#Questions_to_Contemplate
Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON#Questions_to_Contemplate ←
16:49:02 <cmatheus> Manu: started with list of questions.
Manu Sporny: started with list of questions. ←
16:49:12 <manu> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON#RDF_in_JSON_Use_Cases
Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON#RDF_in_JSON_Use_Cases ←
16:49:13 <cmatheus> ... morphed into a set of preliminary use cases.
... morphed into a set of preliminary use cases. ←
16:49:31 <cmatheus> ... if ou can think of a use case that's not here please add it.
... if ou can think of a use case that's not here please add it. ←
16:49:50 <cmatheus> ... change into a set of rdf/json design requirements.
... changed into a set of rdf/json design requirements. ←
16:50:06 <cmatheus> s/change/changed/
16:50:24 <manu> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON#RDF_in_JSON_Design_Requirements
Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON#RDF_in_JSON_Design_Requirements ←
16:50:43 <cmatheus> Guus: the answers to the questions seem to be divided into two groups.
Guus Schreiber: the answers to the questions seem to be divided into two groups. ←
16:51:01 <cmatheus> ... those in favor of user-friendly and whose for machine friendly approach.
... those in favor of user-friendly and whose for machine friendly approach. ←
16:51:19 <cmatheus> Manu: some confusion due to my statement of questions.
Manu Sporny: some confusion due to my statement of questions. ←
16:51:29 <gavin> I think the an ?s ?p ?o syntax -can- be simpler to explain and use then a complicated "Easy" to use syntax. N-Triples vs. RDF/XML ;)
Gavin Carothers: I think the an ?s ?p ?o syntax -can- be simpler to explain and use then a complicated "Easy" to use syntax. N-Triples vs. RDF/XML ;) ←
16:51:32 <cmatheus> ... maybe better to talk about use cases first.
... maybe better to talk about use cases first. ←
16:51:52 <cmatheus> Guus: for the F2F the main goal will be to decide which of the two approaches should be the major one.
Guus Schreiber: for the F2F the main goal will be to decide which of the two approaches should be the major one. ←
16:52:02 <cmatheus> Manu: I believe that is the case.
Manu Sporny: I believe that is the case. ←
16:52:15 <cmatheus> ... should there be two serializations or just one.
... should there be two serializations or just one. ←
16:52:27 <cmatheus> ... some people pushing for machine readable version.
... some people pushing for machine readable version. ←
16:52:28 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
16:52:42 <cmatheus> ... some people argue there's not enough time to do both.
... some people argue there's not enough time to do both. ←
16:53:03 <cmatheus> Guus: fro chairs perspective you will have a strong push to do only one.
Guus Schreiber: fro chairs perspective you will have a strong push to do only one. ←
16:53:27 <ivan> ack cygri
Ivan Herman: ack cygri ←
16:53:29 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
16:53:32 <Zakim> -mischat
Zakim IRC Bot: -mischat ←
16:53:35 <cmatheus> Richard: assuming we do one syntax, should it be human friendly, or should it be machine friendly, or should it be a compromise?
Richard Cyganiak: assuming we do one syntax, should it be human friendly, or should it be machine friendly, or should it be a compromise? ←
16:53:38 <gavin> +q
Gavin Carothers: +q ←
16:53:44 <ivan> ack ivan
Ivan Herman: ack ivan ←
16:53:45 <cmatheus> ... which of those to work on is the main question at the moment.
... which of those to work on is the main question at the moment. ←
16:54:22 <cmatheus> Ivan: I asked on the mailing list but didn't get answer the question of what are the communities we are targeting.
Ivan Herman: I asked on the mailing list but didn't get answer the question of what are the communities we are targeting. ←
16:54:40 <tomayac> there are two strong camps in this wg for one, and for two serializations.
Thomas Steiner: there are two strong camps in this wg for one, and for two serializations. ←
16:54:44 <cmatheus> ... not of interest to traditional RDF communities. they are perfectly happy with turtle and won't use JSON.
... not of interest to traditional RDF communities. they are perfectly happy with turtle and won't use JSON. ←
16:54:47 <manu> +1 to Ivan - RDF in JSON serialization is /not/ for those that are using RDF today w/ RDF/XML and TURTLE
Manu Sporny: +1 to Ivan - RDF in JSON serialization is /not/ for those that are using RDF today w/ RDF/XML and TURTLE ←
16:54:52 <gavin> -q
Gavin Carothers: -q ←
16:54:53 <SteveH> +1
Steve Harris: +1 ←
16:55:08 <LeeF> Some of us are using RDF today with JSON though
Lee Feigenbaum: Some of us are using RDF today with JSON though ←
16:55:09 <Guus> [chair hat off]: i disagree with Ivan, we do a lot with JSON in our applications
Guus Schreiber: [chair hat off]: i disagree with Ivan, we do a lot with JSON in our applications ←
16:55:13 <NickH> Ivan: I disagree - parsing JSON is super fast in PHP
Ivan Herman: I disagree - parsing JSON is super fast in PHP [ Scribe Assist by Nicholas Humfrey ] ←
16:55:13 <cmatheus> ... the other community is not well represented in this group.
... the other community is not well represented in this group. ←
16:55:27 <NickH> Ivan: don't need to write a 'new' parser
Ivan Herman: don't need to write a 'new' parser [ Scribe Assist by Nicholas Humfrey ] ←
16:55:35 <cmatheus> Manu: what I intended with the machine-friendly/human-friendly question.
Manu Sporny: what I intended with the machine-friendly/human-friendly question. ←
16:55:42 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
16:55:42 <pchampin> q+
16:55:45 <tomayac> i consider myself part of this "other community" ;-)
Thomas Steiner: i consider myself part of this "other community" ;-) ←
16:55:47 <webr3> NickH, +1, it's most useful for js environments too (as in node/rhino etc)
Nathan Rixham: NickH, +1, it's most useful for js environments too (as in node/rhino etc) ←
16:55:56 <davidwood> [chair hat off] I have come to see use cases for both developers and Web authors as separate requirements.
David Wood: [chair hat off] I have come to see use cases for both developers and Web authors as separate requirements. ←
16:55:59 <gavin> +q
Gavin Carothers: +q ←
16:56:02 <cmatheus> ... with machine serialization you transform the rdf in to a json structure and you're don.
... with machine serialization you transform the rdf in to a json structure and you're don. ←
16:56:16 <pfps> I agree with Guus - the main reason I see for working with JSON here is to allow JSON stuff to feed into RDF (which I am already using)
Peter Patel-Schneider: I agree with Guus - the main reason I see for working with JSON here is to allow JSON stuff to feed into RDF (which I am already using) ←
16:56:25 <AndyS> That was my understanding of machine-serialization. Speaks to : "goal is to provide an RDF serialization as complete as possible"
Andy Seaborne: That was my understanding of machine-serialization. Speaks to : "goal is to provide an RDF serialization as complete as possible" ←
16:56:36 <cmatheus> with human friednly it's more along line of json-ld.
with human friednly it's more along line of json-ld. ←
16:56:48 <davidwood> machine-friendly serialization is *easy*. Human-friendly is not.
David Wood: machine-friendly serialization is *easy*. Human-friendly is not. ←
16:56:57 <mbrunati> +1 to andy
Matteo Brunati: +1 to andy ←
16:57:08 <NickH> +1 to davidwood
Nicholas Humfrey: +1 to davidwood ←
16:57:08 <cmatheus> ... with machine friendly don't care how humans will use it. with human friendly you expect users to use data like they use it today.
... with machine friendly don't care how humans will use it. with human friendly you expect users to use data like they use it today. ←
16:57:28 <cmatheus> ... expect things to map to associative arrays. can use things without a heavy api.
... expect things to map to associative arrays. can use things without a heavy api. ←
16:57:39 <webr3> q?
Nathan Rixham: q? ←
16:57:48 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
16:57:57 <ivan> ack pchampin
Ivan Herman: ack pchampin ←
16:58:02 <mischat> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
Mischa Tuffield: zakim, [IPcaller] is me ←
16:58:06 <Zakim> +mischat; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +mischat; got it ←
16:58:09 <mischat> zakim, mute me
Mischa Tuffield: zakim, mute me ←
16:58:10 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: mischat should now be muted ←
16:58:29 <cmatheus> Webr3: probably I have with RDF serialization. JSON is both human and machine friendly.
Nathan Rixham: probably I have with RDF serialization. JSON is both human and machine friendly. ←
16:58:44 <ivan> s/Web3/pchampin/
Ivan Herman: s/Web3/pchampin/ (warning: replacement failed) ←
16:58:47 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
16:58:59 <cmatheus> ... rdf is very different. the underlining data structure are very different from the documents.
... rdf is very different. the underlining data structure are very different from the documents. ←
16:59:18 <cygri> maybe rename? "json developer friendly" and "j-triples++"
Richard Cyganiak: maybe rename? "json developer friendly" and "j-triples++" ←
16:59:30 <cmatheus> ... I like Andy's proposal to let program to handle JSON as usual without having to parse it into a real graph structure.
... I like Andy's proposal to let program to handle JSON as usual without having to parse it into a real graph structure. ←
16:59:35 <webr3> +1 to "rdf goggles"
Nathan Rixham: +1 to "rdf goggles" ←
16:59:41 <ivan> ack gavin
Ivan Herman: ack gavin ←
16:59:46 <Guus> ack gavin
Guus Schreiber: ack gavin ←
17:00:38 <pfps> +inf to the madness of RDF/XML
Peter Patel-Schneider: +inf to the madness of RDF/XML ←
17:00:53 <NickH> +1 to gavin!
Nicholas Humfrey: +1 to gavin! ←
17:01:05 <webr3> gavin, it was my understanding that human friendly meant simple kv objects that can be used without an api - not "to write easily"
Nathan Rixham: gavin, it was my understanding that human friendly meant simple kv objects that can be used without an api - not "to write easily" ←
17:01:21 <cmatheus> GavinL making it human friendly make is easier to author. have a problem with the term "friendly" as applied here -- neither one seems very friendly.
GavinL making it human friendly make is easier to author. have a problem with the term "friendly" as applied here -- neither one seems very friendly. ←
17:01:44 <gavin> Sure, but RDF JSON is "simple" KV objects... that happen to be triples rather then more complicated data struture
Gavin Carothers: Sure, but RDF JSON is "simple" KV objects... that happen to be triples rather then more complicated data struture ←
17:01:54 <cmatheus> Manu: some people want to translate data in JSON. some would like data to be immediately usable in a JS program.
Manu Sporny: some people want to translate data in JSON. some would like data to be immediately usable in a JS program. ←
17:02:07 <pfps> gavin: "human friendly" made RDF/XML hostile for both humans and other machines
Gavin Carothers: "human friendly" made RDF/XML hostile for both humans and other machines [ Scribe Assist by Peter Patel-Schneider ] ←
17:02:19 <AndyS> My worry is the "human friendly" is unclear. App task seems to influence the friendliness approach. So TF is quite a lot of work (life of WG), a lot of WG energy. Happy is doable but I'm doubtful.
Andy Seaborne: My worry is the "human friendly" is unclear. App task seems to influence the friendliness approach. So TF is quite a lot of work (life of WG), a lot of WG energy. Happy if doable but I'm doubtful. ←
17:02:29 <cmatheus> ... if that division exists, we have quite a bit of talking to do to come to consensus.
... if that division exists, we have quite a bit of talking to do to come to consensus. ←
17:02:30 <webr3> gavin, something you can do obj.name, obj.age - rather than.. well working w/ triples
Nathan Rixham: gavin, something you can do obj.name, obj.age - rather than.. well working w/ triples ←
17:02:34 <AndyS> s/is doable/if doable/
17:02:34 <tomayac> +1 for sandro's view that there're 2 camps
Thomas Steiner: +1 for manu's view that there're 2 camps ←
17:02:45 <ivan> s/sandro/manu/
17:02:54 <pchampin> I agree about the "2 camps" view
Pierre-Antoine Champin: I agree about the "2 camps" view ←
17:03:01 <LeeF> I'm in the "interested in serializing triples to JSON" camp, but in fairness I'm also not terribly worried about the need for a standard here.
Lee Feigenbaum: I'm in the "interested in serializing triples to JSON" camp, but in fairness I'm also not terribly worried about the need for a standard here. ←
17:03:19 <SteveH> +1 to LeeF
Steve Harris: +1 to LeeF ←
17:03:27 <webr3> gavin, well, it wouldn't be RDF.. it would be simple objects w/ a subject - or just some rdf goggles
Nathan Rixham: gavin, well, it wouldn't be RDF.. it would be simple objects w/ a subject - or just some rdf goggles ←
17:03:32 <cygri> +1 to the concern about ending up with something� like RDF/XML
Richard Cyganiak: +1 to the concern about ending up with something� like RDF/XML ←
17:03:42 <gavin> RDFa works great :D
Gavin Carothers: RDFa works great :D ←
17:03:44 <AndyS> LeeF, module MIME registration. Good to know format of incoming.
Andy Seaborne: LeeF, module MIME registration. Good to know format of incoming. ←
17:03:47 <tomayac> sorry, thanks for the correction, ivan
Thomas Steiner: sorry, thanks for the correction, ivan ←
17:03:55 <gavin> But looks like triples in the end?
Gavin Carothers: But looks like triples in the end? ←
17:03:55 <AndyS> LeeF, yes, modulo MIME registration. Good to know format of incoming.
Andy Seaborne: LeeF, yes, modulo MIME registration. Good to know format of incoming. ←
17:04:05 <cmatheus> Manu: in RDFa would have a tree and set properties from the subject.
Manu Sporny: in RDFa would have a tree and set properties from the subject. ←
17:04:27 <cygri> webr3++
Richard Cyganiak: webr3++ ←
17:04:29 <cmatheus> ... we seem to think that think about triples is easy but the rest of the world thinks about objects.
... we seem to think that think about triples is easy but the rest of the world thinks about objects. ←
17:04:39 <Zakim> -mischat
Zakim IRC Bot: -mischat ←
17:04:57 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
17:04:59 <cmatheus> ... objets have key-vaue pairs. they map to triples but users don't see the mapping.
... objets have key-vaue pairs. they map to triples but users don't see the mapping. ←
17:05:09 <ivan> ack ivan
Ivan Herman: ack ivan ←
17:05:24 <cmatheus> Ivan: you seem to have jumped to a conclusion too quickly.
Ivan Herman: you seem to have jumped to a conclusion too quickly. ←
17:05:36 <cmatheus> ... the reason for the problem in acceptance is not the fact you have triples.
... the reason for the problem in acceptance is not the fact you have triples. ←
17:05:46 <gavin> Triples aren't hard. English majors get them in 15-20 minutes ;)
Gavin Carothers: Triples aren't hard. English majors get them in 15-20 minutes ;) ←
17:05:51 <davidwood> The "natural" format is the graph, not triples nor quads nor XML nor JSON, etc. Let's not confuse serialization syntax with the graph.
David Wood: The "natural" format is the graph, not triples nor quads nor XML nor JSON, etc. Let's not confuse serialization syntax with the graph. ←
17:05:52 <tomayac> we should try to think json/objects, and less semantic web
Thomas Steiner: we should try to think json/objects, and less semantic web ←
17:05:58 <cmatheus> .. rather the dominating syntax (RDF-XML) made it very difficult to see that there are triples.
.. rather the dominating syntax (RDF-XML) made it very difficult to see that there are triples. ←
17:06:00 <AndyS> I disagree it hasn't worked. RDF is not a substitution for something else.
Andy Seaborne: I disagree it hasn't worked. RDF is not a substitution for something else. ←
17:06:13 <manu> q+ to speak to triples.
Manu Sporny: q+ to speak to triples. ←
17:06:24 <ivan> ack manu
Ivan Herman: ack manu ←
17:06:24 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to speak to triples.
Zakim IRC Bot: manu, you wanted to speak to triples. ←
17:06:49 <cmatheus> Manu: why are we trying to convince people to use triples when they are already comfortable with objects and JSON?
Manu Sporny: why are we trying to convince people to use triples when they are already comfortable with objects and JSON? ←
17:06:51 <pchampin> @Ivan: I agree about the problem coming partly from RDF/XML
Pierre-Antoine Champin: @Ivan: I agree about the problem coming partly from RDF/XML ←
17:07:05 <pchampin> but my experience is that some people also have difficulties accepting *triples*
Pierre-Antoine Champin: but my experience is that some people also have difficulties accepting *triples* ←
17:07:06 <gavin> 'cause objects suck at linking?
Gavin Carothers: 'cause objects suck at linking? ←
17:07:09 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
17:07:18 <cmatheus> ...we shouldn't be trying to retrain the world in how they express their data.
...we shouldn't be trying to retrain the world in how they express their data. ←
17:07:23 <davidwood> +1 to Manu. Objects are *most appropriate* for UIs.
David Wood: +1 to Manu. Objects are *most appropriate* for UIs. ←
17:07:31 <ivan> ack cygri
Ivan Herman: ack cygri ←
17:07:39 <webr3> manu, yes, but that means /not/ changing their current data - so would be more of a data transformation map
Nathan Rixham: manu, yes, but that means /not/ changing their current data - so would be more of a data transformation map ←
17:08:05 <gavin> Maybe we need JSON RDF Syntax and JSON GRDDL?
Gavin Carothers: Maybe we need JSON RDF Syntax and JSON GRDDL? ←
17:08:06 <cmatheus> Richard: take this with a grain of salt. you could make the same argument for designing rdf-xml the way it was deisgned.
Richard Cyganiak: take this with a grain of salt. you could make the same argument for designing rdf-xml the way it was deisgned. ←
17:08:17 <cmatheus> ... some people naturally think in trees.
... some people naturally think in trees. ←
17:08:19 <manu> q+ to discuss HTML+RDFa and why it was successful.
Manu Sporny: q+ to discuss HTML+RDFa and why it was successful. ←
17:08:42 <cmatheus> ... danger if we say let's just treat everything as objects and somehow we'll get out our triples.
... danger if we say let's just treat everything as objects and somehow we'll get out our triples. ←
17:08:59 <ivan> ack manu
Ivan Herman: ack manu ←
17:08:59 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to discuss HTML+RDFa and why it was successful.
Zakim IRC Bot: manu, you wanted to discuss HTML+RDFa and why it was successful. ←
17:09:01 <cmatheus> ... why shouldn't I be concerned with this rdf-xml trap?
... why shouldn't I be concerned with this rdf-xml trap? ←
17:09:25 <tomayac> q+
Thomas Steiner: q+ ←
17:09:29 <cmatheus> Manu: RDFa was successful because we built it on top of html.
Manu Sporny: RDFa was successful because we built it on top of html. ←
17:09:36 <SteveH> RDF/XML is was very widely used too, it's just not liked
Steve Harris: RDF/XML is was very widely used too, it's just not liked ←
17:09:40 <SteveH> RSS1 for e.g.
Steve Harris: RSS1 for e.g. ←
17:09:46 <sandro> I don't agree that RDFa was more successful than RDF/XML.
Sandro Hawke: I don't agree that RDFa was more successful than RDF/XML. ←
17:09:49 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
17:09:56 <cmatheus> ... was very hard to sell rdf-xml to the world. rdfa was easy to sell. not sure why this was the case.
... was very hard to sell rdf-xml to the world. rdfa was easy to sell. not sure why this was the case. ←
17:09:58 <ivan> ack tomayac
Ivan Herman: ack tomayac ←
17:10:08 <cmatheus> Thomas: triples are not that hard.
Thomas Steiner: triples are not that hard. ←
17:10:14 <AndyS> Real data is published in N-Triples. Semi :-)
Andy Seaborne: Real data is published in N-Triples. Semi :-) ←
17:10:25 <LeeF> triples are pretty easy... triples + datatypes + languages + blank nodes + URIs are harder :-)
Lee Feigenbaum: triples are pretty easy... triples + datatypes + languages + blank nodes + URIs are harder :-) ←
17:10:45 <cmatheus> ... we at Google are seeing that once people see that the data is just triples they realize that it's not that hard.
... we at Google are seeing that once people see that the data is just triples they realize that it's not that hard. ←
17:10:53 <mbrunati> +1 lee and the model stuff as graph
Matteo Brunati: +1 lee and the model stuff as graph ←
17:10:58 <ivan> q-
Ivan Herman: q- ←
17:11:30 <cmatheus> ... my point is that for the rdf-json serialization we can think triples. let's not limit ourselves and not hide the fact that it is rdf. it is triples, nothing more nothing less.
... my point is that for the rdf-json serialization we can think triples. let's not limit ourselves and not hide the fact that it is rdf. it is triples, nothing more nothing less. ←
17:11:53 <cmatheus> Sandro: I'm wondering if there's candidate syntax that does what you're asking for?
Sandro Hawke: I'm wondering if there's candidate syntax that does what you're asking for? ←
17:12:52 <cmatheus> Thomas: haven't read them all. elements of some do. trying to reach a compromise I think we can come up with a bridge between the camps and the development communities.
Thomas Steiner: haven't read them all. elements of some do. trying to reach a compromise I think we can come up with a bridge between the camps and the development communities. ←
17:13:18 <cmatheus> Manu: would it help to go through some of the design requirements?
Manu Sporny: would it help to go through some of the design requirements? ←
17:13:46 <Guus> can anybody hear me?
Guus Schreiber: can anybody hear me? ←
17:13:58 <davidwood> I do hope to make progress on this ftf. Some things are just easier that way.
David Wood: I do hope to make progress on this ftf. Some things are just easier that way. ←
17:14:01 <Guus> -
Guus Schreiber: - ←
17:14:04 <davidwood> Guus: no :(
Guus Schreiber: no :( [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ] ←
17:14:19 <cmatheus> Thomas: this should be something to discuss at F2F. Some of you have been here for over 10 years some like me have been here for like 1 year or so. we should get together and try to be objective.
Thomas Steiner: this should be something to discuss at F2F. Some of you have been here for over 10 years some like me have been here for like 1 year or so. we should get together and try to be objective. ←
17:14:26 <Zakim> -Guus
Zakim IRC Bot: -Guus ←
17:14:35 <AndyS> I see Turtle as object-ish but linking is first class. JSON only has strings.
Andy Seaborne: I see Turtle as object-ish but linking is first class. JSON only has strings. ←
17:14:46 <cygri> excellent point AndyS
Richard Cyganiak: excellent point AndyS ←
Formatted by CommonScribe