Congratulations to the group for publication of 5 working drafts. Blog posts were drafted to go together with the announcement. Actions were created to announce the publication of these drafts to various mailing lists as well as the connection task force's community.
Presentation on editorial changes to e PAQ. The correct url for the proposed release could not be found so the vote was delayed until the next call so that the url could be distributed.
A summary and timetable for dublin core best practices were given. The collaborative document was being hosted on github so that the dublin core participants and W3C participants could work together. It was suggested to move this to the W3C for reasons around intellectual property and invite the dublin core participants to be invited experts. A quick release of the mapping to dublin core was encouraged, in particular, before the next face-to-face meeting.
Definition of Alternate and Specialization
the group voted on revised versions of definitions for entity, alternate and specialization. These definitions were accepted.
a proposal was put forward to make derivation independent of the agents/responsibility component of the data model. This proposal was accepted.
PROV Notation Optional Identifiers Syntax
A discussion was had around the notation for optional identifiers used in prov-n. It was felt that there were wider issues with respect to the prov-n notation that needed to be considered. The editors were given guidance to move forward with the use of ";" as a marker for optional identifiers and based on this address other outstanding issues with respect to the syntax. Group members were then encouraged to make comments on the entirety of the revised document.
14:46:16 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-prov-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-prov-irc ←
14:46:18 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
14:46:20 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be ←
14:46:20 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot ←
14:46:21 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:46:21 <trackbot> Date: 03 May 2012
14:46:22 <pgroth> Zakim, this will be PROV
Paul Groth: Zakim, this will be PROV ←
14:46:22 <Zakim> ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 14 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 14 minutes ←
14:46:35 <pgroth> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.05.03
14:46:43 <pgroth> Scribe: Stian Soiland-Reyes
(Scribe set to Stian Soiland-Reyes)
14:46:49 <pgroth> Chair: Paul Groth
14:47:00 <pgroth> rrsagent, make logs public
Paul Groth: rrsagent, make logs public ←
14:47:08 <pgroth> Regrets: Khalid Belhajjame
14:53:05 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
(No events recorded for 6 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started ←
14:53:13 <Zakim> + +49.674.180.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +49.674.180.aaaa ←
14:53:17 <Zakim> +TomDN
Zakim IRC Bot: +TomDN ←
14:53:28 <TomDN> Zakim, mute me
Tom De Nies: Zakim, mute me ←
14:53:28 <Zakim> TomDN should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: TomDN should now be muted ←
14:53:37 <pgroth> do you hear us?
Paul Groth: do you hear us? ←
14:54:09 <TomDN> I don't hear anyone atm
Tom De Nies: I don't hear anyone atm ←
14:54:39 <TomDN> problems with the system?
Tom De Nies: problems with the system? ←
14:54:44 <pgroth> i don't know
Paul Groth: i don't know ←
14:54:51 <pgroth> can you say something?
Paul Groth: can you say something? ←
14:54:55 <TomDN> Zakim, unmute me
Tom De Nies: Zakim, unmute me ←
14:54:55 <Zakim> TomDN should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: TomDN should no longer be muted ←
14:55:18 <pgroth> i can hear you
Paul Groth: i can hear you ←
14:58:44 <Zakim> +??P31
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P31 ←
14:59:24 <Zakim> +Curt_Tilmes
Zakim IRC Bot: +Curt_Tilmes ←
15:00:08 <Zakim> +??P37
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P37 ←
15:01:03 <stain> 1 sec
1 sec ←
15:01:31 <Zakim> +??P35
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P35 ←
15:01:36 <Zakim> +??P38
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P38 ←
15:01:39 <Zakim> +??P28
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P28 ←
15:01:51 <stain> Zakim: one of those is me
Zakim IRC Bot: one of those is me ←
15:01:55 <Zakim> +tlebo
Zakim IRC Bot: +tlebo ←
15:02:01 <GK> zakim, one of those is me :)
Graham Klyne: zakim, one of those is me :) ←
15:02:01 <Zakim> I'm glad that smiley is there, GK
Zakim IRC Bot: I'm glad that smiley is there, GK ←
15:02:11 <Zakim> +??P44
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P44 ←
15:02:13 <Zakim> -??P35
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P35 ←
15:02:22 <Zakim> +??P39
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P39 ←
15:02:25 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P44 is probably me
Daniel Garijo: Zakim, ??P44 is probably me ←
15:02:28 <stain> Zakim, who is being noisy?
Zakim, who is being noisy? ←
15:02:34 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo
Zakim IRC Bot: +Satya_Sahoo ←
15:02:38 <Zakim> -??P38
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P38 ←
15:02:40 <Zakim> +dgarijo?; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +dgarijo?; got it ←
15:02:42 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, stain.
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand your question, stain. ←
15:02:52 <Zakim> +Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro ←
15:02:53 <dgarijo> Zakim, who is noisy
Daniel Garijo: Zakim, who is noisy ←
15:02:56 <Zakim> +??P10
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P10 ←
15:02:59 <jun> zakim, ??P38 is me
Jun Zhao: zakim, ??P38 is me ←
15:03:09 <jun> zakim, ??P10 is me
Jun Zhao: zakim, ??P10 is me ←
15:03:13 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is noisy', dgarijo
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'who is noisy', dgarijo ←
15:03:14 <Zakim> +??P17
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P17 ←
15:03:16 <Zakim> I already had ??P38 as ??P38, jun
Zakim IRC Bot: I already had ??P38 as ??P38, jun ←
15:03:18 <Zakim> +??P8
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P8 ←
15:03:20 <Zakim> +jun; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +jun; got it ←
15:03:24 <Zakim> +??P34
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P34 ←
15:03:28 <stain> at some point z knew my number..
at some point z knew my number.. ←
15:03:34 <GK> zakim, ??p17 is me (I think)
Graham Klyne: zakim, ??p17 is me (I think) ←
15:03:34 <Zakim> I don't understand '??p17 is me (I think)', GK
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand '??p17 is me (I think)', GK ←
15:03:38 <pgroth> Topic: Admin
15:03:42 <kai> zakim, ??P34 is probably me.
Kai Eckert: zakim, ??P34 is probably me. ←
15:03:42 <Zakim> +kai?; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +kai?; got it ←
15:03:42 <stain> pgroth: lots to talk about today
Paul Groth: lots to talk about today ←
15:03:45 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-04-26
Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-04-26 ←
15:03:54 <GK> zakim, who is on the call?
Graham Klyne: zakim, who is on the call? ←
15:03:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see +49.674.180.aaaa, TomDN, ??P31, Curt_Tilmes, ??P37, ??P28, tlebo, dgarijo?, ??P39, Satya_Sahoo, Sandro, jun, ??P17, ??P8, kai?
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see +49.674.180.aaaa, TomDN, ??P31, Curt_Tilmes, ??P37, ??P28, tlebo, dgarijo?, ??P39, Satya_Sahoo, Sandro, jun, ??P17, ??P8, kai? ←
15:04:01 <pgroth> Minutes of the April 26 2012 Telecon
Paul Groth: Minutes of the April 26 2012 Telecon ←
15:04:05 <dgarijo> +1
Daniel Garijo: +1 ←
15:04:07 <TomDN> +1
Tom De Nies: +1 ←
15:04:07 <stain> pgroth: Approve minutes?
Paul Groth: Approve minutes? ←
15:04:08 <GK> zakim, ??p17 is me
Graham Klyne: zakim, ??p17 is me ←
15:04:08 <Zakim> +GK; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +GK; got it ←
15:04:08 <stain> +1
+1 ←
15:04:10 <tlebo> +1
Timothy Lebo: +1 ←
15:04:12 <Paolo> +1
Paolo Missier: +1 ←
15:04:15 <Curt> +1
Curt Tilmes: +1 ←
15:04:20 <kai> +0 (wasn't there)
Kai Eckert: +0 (wasn't there) ←
15:04:27 <smiles> +1
Simon Miles: +1 ←
15:04:31 <satya> 0 (didn't attend)
Satya Sahoo: 0 (didn't attend) ←
15:04:37 <GK> +1
Graham Klyne: +1 ←
15:04:37 <Zakim> + +44.131.467.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: + +44.131.467.aabb ←
15:04:37 <zednik> +1
Stephan Zednik: +1 ←
15:04:48 <pgroth> Accepted: Minutes of the April 26 2012 Telecon
RESOLVED: Minutes of the April 26 2012 Telecon ←
15:04:49 <Zakim> +[OpenLink]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[OpenLink] ←
15:04:54 <stain> APPROVED
APPROVED ←
15:05:01 <MacTed> Zakim, [OpenLink] is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, [OpenLink] is temporarily me ←
15:05:02 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it ←
15:05:03 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
15:05:03 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
15:05:06 <stain> pgroth: not reviewing action items now, we'll look at those later
Paul Groth: not reviewing action items now, we'll look at those later ←
15:05:19 <stain> pgroth: would hope to get scribes before the day of the telcon!
Paul Groth: would hope to get scribes before the day of the telcon! ←
15:05:23 <pgroth> Topic: Release of Documents
Summary: Congratulations to the group for publication of 5 working drafts. Blog posts were drafted to go together with the announcement. Actions were created to announce the publication of these drafts to various mailing lists as well as the connection task force's community.
<pgroth> Summary: Congratulations to the group for publication of 5 working drafts. Blog posts were drafted to go together with the announcement. Actions were created to announce the publication of these drafts to various mailing lists as well as the connection task force's community.
15:05:57 <stain> pgroth: all documents available and published now - thanks everyone
Paul Groth: all documents available and published now - thanks everyone ←
15:06:04 <stain> pgroth: see http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.05.03#Release_of_Documents
Paul Groth: see http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.05.03#Release_of_Documents ←
15:06:15 <stain> pgroth: http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-primer/
Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-primer/ ←
15:06:16 <stain> http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-o/
http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-o/ ←
15:06:16 <stain> http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-dm/
http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-dm/ ←
15:06:16 <stain> http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-n/
http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-n/ ←
15:06:17 <stain> http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-constraints/
http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-constraints/ ←
15:06:25 <stain> pgroth: now, how to announce this and promote this
Paul Groth: now, how to announce this and promote this ←
15:06:42 <stain> pgroth: action items on announcement of documents
Paul Groth: action items on announcement of documents ←
15:06:48 <Zakim> +??P33
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P33 ←
15:06:54 <stain> pgroth: one action on pgroth was to make a general blog post - DONE
Paul Groth: one action on pgroth was to make a general blog post - DONE ←
15:07:08 <stain> pgroth: one on Jun to prepare a PROV-O blogpost, done with Stian
Paul Groth: one on Jun to prepare a PROV-O blogpost, done with Stian ←
15:07:09 <jun> done that with Stian
Jun Zhao: done that with Stian ←
15:07:23 <stain> pgroth: and last a post around DM
Paul Groth: and last a post around DM ←
15:07:30 <stain> Luc: Drafted - will finalize it tonight, finish tomorrow
Luc Moreau: Drafted - will finalize it tonight, finish tomorrow ←
15:07:41 <stain> pgroth: wanted to talk a little bit about when we want to publish this together
Paul Groth: wanted to talk a little bit about when we want to publish this together ←
15:07:53 <stain> pgroth: we want the overral view and things in order
Paul Groth: we want the overral view and things in order ←
15:08:03 <stain> Luc: would assume the other two blog posts were published! Need their URLs..
Luc Moreau: would assume the other two blog posts were published! Need their URLs.. ←
15:08:16 <stain> pgroth: I will post PROv-O blog and update its links - share it with you
Paul Groth: I will post PROv-O blog and update its links - share it with you ←
15:08:20 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:08:32 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:08:38 <stain> pgroth: any questions on the announcements?
Paul Groth: any questions on the announcements? ←
15:08:47 <stain> pgroth: semantic activity news - will also be on w3c main site
Paul Groth: semantic activity news - will also be on w3c main site ←
15:09:03 <stain> q+ what about various mailing lists?
q+ what about various mailing lists? ←
15:09:10 <stain> +q what about various mailing lists?
+q what about various mailing lists? ←
15:09:13 <stain> whatever!
whatever! ←
15:09:26 <stain> Luc: to email various participants
Luc Moreau: to email various participants ←
15:09:35 <stain> pgroth: that's next on the agenda!
Paul Groth: that's next on the agenda! ←
15:09:38 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:10:25 <stain> Stian: What about various mailing lists like semweb- lifesciences etc
Stian Soiland-Reyes: What about various mailing lists like semweb- lifesciences etc ←
15:10:29 <satya> I can do W3C HCLS and ACM SIGHIT
Satya Sahoo: I can do W3C HCLS and ACM SIGHIT ←
15:10:34 <stain> pgroth: happy to announce on semantic web mailing list and dagstuhl
Paul Groth: happy to announce on semantic web mailing list and dagstuhl ←
15:10:44 <pgroth> action paul to send to semweb and dagstuhl mailing lists
Paul Groth: action paul to send to semweb and dagstuhl mailing lists ←
15:10:44 <trackbot> Created ACTION-83 - Send to semweb and dagstuhl mailing lists [on Paul Groth - due 2012-05-10].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-83 - Send to semweb and dagstuhl mailing lists [on Paul Groth - due 2012-05-10]. ←
15:11:11 <stain> action satya announce PROV to W3C HCLS and ACM SIGHIT
action satya announce PROV to W3C HCLS and ACM SIGHIT ←
15:11:12 <trackbot> Created ACTION-84 - Announce PROV to W3C HCLS and ACM SIGHIT [on Satya Sahoo - due 2012-05-10].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-84 - Announce PROV to W3C HCLS and ACM SIGHIT [on Satya Sahoo - due 2012-05-10]. ←
15:11:14 <pgroth> action satay w3c hcls arm and acm sighit
Paul Groth: action satay w3c hcls arm and acm sighit ←
15:11:14 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - satay
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - satay ←
15:11:33 <stain> Satya to wait for pgroth's email and copy from there
Satya to wait for pgroth's email and copy from there ←
15:11:42 <pgroth> action satya w3c hcls and arm sigit
Paul Groth: action satya w3c hcls and arm sigit ←
15:11:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-85 - W3c hcls and arm sigit [on Satya Sahoo - due 2012-05-10].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-85 - W3c hcls and arm sigit [on Satya Sahoo - due 2012-05-10]. ←
15:12:00 <jun> pub-lod?
15:12:03 <Paolo> there are project lists -- Wf4Ever, DataONE
Paolo Missier: there are project lists -- Wf4Ever, DataONE ←
15:12:03 <stain> pgroth: other mailing lists?
Paul Groth: other mailing lists? ←
15:12:06 <Paolo> I can do both
Paolo Missier: I can do both ←
15:12:13 <stain> ((?) could not hear you properly )
((?) could not hear you properly ) ←
15:12:18 <pgroth> action sandro to send to w3c mailing lists
Paul Groth: action sandro to send to w3c mailing lists ←
15:12:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-86 - Send to w3c mailing lists [on Sandro Hawke - due 2012-05-10].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-86 - Send to w3c mailing lists [on Sandro Hawke - due 2012-05-10]. ←
15:12:35 <pgroth> action paolo mail to wf4ever and dataone
Paul Groth: action paolo mail to wf4ever and dataone ←
15:12:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-87 - Mail to wf4ever and dataone [on Paolo Missier - due 2012-05-10].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-87 - Mail to wf4ever and dataone [on Paolo Missier - due 2012-05-10]. ←
15:12:44 <stain> I can post it in G+ ;)
I can post it in G+ ;) ←
15:12:45 <jun> why don't you do that?
Jun Zhao: why don't you do that? ←
15:12:54 <Paolo> there is still a provenance-challenge list, right?
Paolo Missier: there is still a provenance-challenge list, right? ←
15:12:55 <GK> Sandro said he'd notify other RDF WGs within W3C (RDF, SPARQL, etc)
Graham Klyne: Sandro said he'd notify other RDF WGs within W3C (RDF, SPARQL, etc) ←
15:13:02 <Paolo> or is it just us :-)
Paolo Missier: or is it just us :-) ←
15:13:03 <GK> (@stian^^)
Graham Klyne: (@stian^^) ←
15:13:06 <stain> @GK thnx
@GK thnx ←
15:13:46 <stain> pgroth: we've identified people who are interested in the spec, from Connecting taskforce - who is leading that now? Stephan?
Paul Groth: we've identified people who are interested in the spec, from Connecting taskforce - who is leading that now? Stephan? ←
15:13:59 <stain> stephenc: (?) tech list
Stephen Cresswell: (?) tech list ←
15:14:10 <stain> stephenc: a survey, did not think of it as a connection taskforce..
Stephen Cresswell: a survey, did not think of it as a connection taskforce.. ←
15:14:19 <stain> pgroth: would they get this already through the mailing lists?
Paul Groth: would they get this already through the mailing lists? ←
15:14:27 <stain> stephenc: will send an email to people who said they were interested
Stephen Cresswell: will send an email to people who said they were interested ←
15:14:29 <GK> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Connection_Task_Force is not test case TF
Graham Klyne: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Connection_Task_Force is not test case TF ←
15:14:31 <pgroth> action stepenc to send email to stockholders
Paul Groth: action stepenc to send email to stockholders ←
15:14:31 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - stepenc
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - zednik ←
15:14:38 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:14:55 <zednik> s/stepenc/zednik
15:14:55 <pgroth> Topic: PAQ
Summary: Presentation on editorial changes to e PAQ. The correct url for the proposed release could not be found so the vote was delayed until the next call so that the url could be distributed.
<pgroth> Summary: Presentation on editorial changes to e PAQ. The correct url for the proposed release could not be found so the vote was delayed until the next call so that the url could be distributed.
15:15:00 <GK> ... which is http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Implementation_and_Test_Cases_Task_Force
Graham Klyne: ... which is http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Implementation_and_Test_Cases_Task_Force ←
15:15:13 <stephenc> @stain - that was zednik, not stephenc
Stephen Cresswell: @stain - that was zednik, not stephenc ←
15:15:15 <stain> is http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/paq/working/prov-aq.html the right URI?
is http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/paq/working/prov-aq.html the right URI? ←
15:15:23 <stain> GK: no changes since last meeting
Graham Klyne: no changes since last meeting ←
15:15:34 <stain> ... feedback from Olaf, happy with changes. No objections on mailing list
... feedback from Olaf, happy with changes. No objections on mailing list ←
15:15:55 <stain> ... lurking in the back are some other issues I've not tracked down, but don't think any blockers
... lurking in the back are some other issues I've not tracked down, but don't think any blockers ←
15:16:11 <stain> pgroth: I've received comments from Luc that needs to be done, but all minor
Paul Groth: I've received comments from Luc that needs to be done, but all minor ←
15:16:17 <stain> (not minor?)
(not minor?) ←
15:16:30 <stain> GK: addressed editorial stuff that came up on mailing lists, and a couple of issues mentioned there
Graham Klyne: addressed editorial stuff that came up on mailing lists, and a couple of issues mentioned there ←
15:16:41 <stain> pgroth: we are in a position that we can release a working draft
Paul Groth: we are in a position that we can release a working draft ←
15:16:46 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:16:53 <pgroth> Proposal: to release PAQ as a working draft
PROPOSED: to release PAQ as a working draft ←
15:16:56 <stain> q+
q+ ←
15:17:16 <Zakim> -??P8
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P8 ←
15:17:25 <stain> stain: which url?
Stian Soiland-Reyes: which url? ←
15:17:27 <stain> so that's http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/paq/prov-aq.html
so that's http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/paq/prov-aq.html ←
15:17:33 <pgroth> ack stain
Paul Groth: ack stain ←
15:17:39 <stain> it claims: "PROV-DM, the PROV data model for provenance (this document),"
it claims: "PROV-DM, the PROV data model for provenance (this document)," ←
15:17:40 <Zakim> +??P8
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P8 ←
15:17:45 <stain> GK has last edited /working/prov-aq.html
GK has last edited /working/prov-aq.html ←
15:17:52 <GK> zakim, ??p8 is me
Graham Klyne: zakim, ??p8 is me ←
15:17:52 <Zakim> +GK; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +GK; got it ←
15:17:54 <pgroth> hello
Paul Groth: hello ←
15:18:04 <stain> SCRIBE DROPPED OUT - backup scribe please
SCRIBE DROPPED OUT - backup scribe please ←
15:18:21 <smiles> ok, I'll scribe
Simon Miles: ok, I'll scribe ←
15:18:23 <Zakim> +??P11
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P11 ←
15:18:24 <pgroth> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/paq/prov-aq.html
Paul Groth: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/paq/prov-aq.html ←
15:18:25 <stain> I'm back
I'm back ←
15:18:30 <satya> pgroth: Which is the correct URL?
Paul Groth: Which is the correct URL? [ Scribe Assist by Satya Sahoo ] ←
15:18:31 <Zakim> -??P28
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P28 ←
15:18:43 <stain> perhaps we need to sort out which document we are going to release.. ;)
perhaps we need to sort out which document we are going to release.. ;) ←
15:19:28 <stain> GK: need to check this for a couple of minutes, and come back in the chatlog with the right URI
Graham Klyne: need to check this for a couple of minutes, and come back in the chatlog with the right URI ←
15:19:41 <stain> @GK in Mercurial, pgroth last edited /paq/ and you edited /paq/working/
@GK in Mercurial, pgroth last edited /paq/ and you edited /paq/working/ ←
15:19:56 <pgroth> Topic: Dublin Core Best Practice
Summary: A summary and timetable for dublin core best practices were given. The collaborative document was being hosted on github so that the dublin core participants and W3C participants could work together. It was suggested to move this to the W3C for reasons around intellectual property and invite the dublin core participants to be invited experts. A quick release of the mapping to dublin core was encouraged, in particular, before the next face-to-face meeting.
<pgroth> Summary: A summary and timetable for dublin core best practices were given. The collaborative document was being hosted on github so that the dublin core participants and W3C participants could work together. It was suggested to move this to the W3C for reasons around intellectual property and invite the dublin core participants to be invited experts. A quick release of the mapping to dublin core was encouraged, in particular, before the next face-to-face meeting.
15:20:04 <stain> Kai/Simon/Daniel?
Kai/Simon/Daniel? ←
15:20:19 <stain> Zakim, who is on the call
Zakim, who is on the call ←
15:20:19 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the call', stain
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'who is on the call', stain ←
15:20:19 <dgarijo> @Kai, do you give the update or shall i?
Daniel Garijo: @Kai, do you give the update or shall i? ←
15:20:31 <kai> Can you hear me?
Kai Eckert: Can you hear me? ←
15:20:33 <stain> no
no ←
15:20:34 <pgroth> no
Paul Groth: no ←
15:20:42 <MacTed> (action wasn't created above... zednik to send email to stockholders [or is that stakeholders?])
Ted Thibodeau: (action wasn't created above... zednik to send email to stockholders [or is that stakeholders?]) ←
15:20:45 <kai> Daniel, can you jump in?
Kai Eckert: Daniel, can you jump in? ←
15:20:51 <TomDN> Zakim, who is on the phone?
Tom De Nies: Zakim, who is on the phone? ←
15:20:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see +49.674.180.aaaa, TomDN, ??P31, Curt_Tilmes, ??P37, tlebo, dgarijo?, ??P39, Satya_Sahoo, Sandro, jun, GK, kai?, +44.131.467.aabb, MacTed (muted), ??P33, GK.a
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see +49.674.180.aaaa, TomDN, ??P31, Curt_Tilmes, ??P37, tlebo, dgarijo?, ??P39, Satya_Sahoo, Sandro, jun, GK, kai?, +44.131.467.aabb, MacTed (muted), ??P33, GK.a ←
15:20:55 <Zakim> ... ??P11
Zakim IRC Bot: ... ??P11 ←
15:20:55 <GK> PAQ URI should be http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/ba89f8345d59/paq/working/prov-aq.html
Graham Klyne: PAQ URI should be http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/ba89f8345d59/paq/working/prov-aq.html ←
15:20:56 <dgarijo> sure
Daniel Garijo: sure ←
15:21:01 <zednik> @MacTed stakeholders
Stephan Zednik: @MacTed stakeholders ←
15:21:15 <stain> dgarijo: I've been away this week, but catched up with Kai
Daniel Garijo: I've been away this week, but catched up with Kai ←
15:21:15 <MacTed> action zednik to send email to stakeholders
Ted Thibodeau: action zednik to send email to stakeholders ←
15:21:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-88 - Send email to stakeholders [on Stephan Zednik - due 2012-05-10].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-88 - Send email to stakeholders [on Stephan Zednik - due 2012-05-10]. ←
15:21:16 <kai> Thanks.
Kai Eckert: Thanks. ←
15:21:18 <stain> dgarijo: a small time table
Daniel Garijo: a small time table ←
15:21:26 <dgarijo> https://github.com/dcmi/DC-PROV-Mapping/wiki/Mapping-overview
Daniel Garijo: https://github.com/dcmi/DC-PROV-Mapping/wiki/Mapping-overview ←
15:21:37 <stain> dgarijo: first, write down mappings we did at dagstuhl (link above)
Daniel Garijo: first, write down mappings we did at dagstuhl (link above) ←
15:21:52 <stain> dgarijo: in github so everyone can update and check
Daniel Garijo: in github so everyone can update and check ←
15:22:20 <stain> dgarijo: plan to develop some (?) with mappings we have in wiki page, stage 1 of mapping - the simple statements, but not missing statements from many different dublin core terms
Daniel Garijo: plan to develop some (?) with mappings we have in wiki page, stage 1 of mapping - the simple statements, but not missing statements from many different dublin core terms ←
15:22:25 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's noisy? ←
15:22:35 <stain> dgarijo: SPARQL CONSTRUCT queries
Daniel Garijo: SPARQL CONSTRUCT queries ←
15:22:36 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +49.674.180.aaaa (37%), dgarijo? (61%)
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +49.674.180.aaaa (37%), dgarijo? (61%) ←
15:22:46 <stain> dgarijo: put examples in wiki that can be reviewed - to be done over the next 2 weeks
Daniel Garijo: put examples in wiki that can be reviewed - to be done over the next 2 weeks ←
15:22:56 <MacTed> Zakim, mute aaaa
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute aaaa ←
15:22:56 <Zakim> +49.674.180.aaaa should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: +49.674.180.aaaa should now be muted ←
15:23:02 <stain> dgarijo: after Kai has finished Masters' thesis we'll come up with an actual implementation to do it automatically
Daniel Garijo: after Kai has finished Masters' thesis we'll come up with an actual implementation to do it automatically ←
15:23:10 <MacTed> sorry -- the echoes are VERY hard to process thru
Ted Thibodeau: sorry -- the echoes are VERY hard to process thru ←
15:23:14 <stain> dgarijo: that's all
Daniel Garijo: that's all ←
15:23:20 <pgroth> Zakim, unmute aaaa
Paul Groth: Zakim, unmute aaaa ←
15:23:20 <Zakim> +49.674.180.aaaa should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: +49.674.180.aaaa should no longer be muted ←
15:23:30 <kai> My question is, do we need a text and until when?
Kai Eckert: My question is, do we need a text and until when? ←
15:23:32 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:23:43 <stain> pgroth: sounds reasonable plan, any comments?
Paul Groth: sounds reasonable plan, any comments? ←
15:23:49 <kai> q+ to ask for a deadline for some text.
Kai Eckert: q+ to ask for a deadline for some text. ←
15:24:01 <MacTed> Zakim, aaaa is pgroth
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, aaaa is pgroth ←
15:24:01 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +pgroth; got it ←
15:24:03 <pgroth> Zakim, mute aaaa
Paul Groth: Zakim, mute aaaa ←
15:24:03 <Zakim> sorry, pgroth, I do not know which phone connection belongs to aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, pgroth, I do not know which phone connection belongs to aaaa ←
15:24:04 <kai> u can't hear me unfortunately
Kai Eckert: u can't hear me unfortunately ←
15:24:13 <MacTed> Zakim, mute pgroth
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute pgroth ←
15:24:13 <Zakim> pgroth should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should now be muted ←
15:24:15 <MacTed> :-)
Ted Thibodeau: :-) ←
15:24:18 <kai> For some report text!
Kai Eckert: For some report text! ←
15:24:21 <stain> dgarijo: will there be any deadline for this task?
Daniel Garijo: will there be any deadline for this task? ←
15:24:25 <pgroth> Zakim, unmute pgroth
Paul Groth: Zakim, unmute pgroth ←
15:24:25 <Zakim> pgroth should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should no longer be muted ←
15:24:27 <kai> Or is the technical mapping enough?
Kai Eckert: Or is the technical mapping enough? ←
15:24:43 <stain> pgroth: no hard deadlines, but really important part of specifications. Typical questions we get lot
Paul Groth: no hard deadlines, but really important part of specifications. Typical questions we get lot ←
15:24:46 <stain> relations to Dublin Core
relations to Dublin Core ←
15:24:59 <stain> pgroth: would be good to get an idea of how long it would take you to do something
Paul Groth: would be good to get an idea of how long it would take you to do something ←
15:25:10 <stain> pgroth: I don't know how much you want to spend on this..
Paul Groth: I don't know how much you want to spend on this.. ←
15:25:18 <Luc> when would you like to release something internally, for us to review?
Luc Moreau: when would you like to release something internally, for us to review? ←
15:25:24 <GK> Audio is cutting in and out - is it just me?
Graham Klyne: Audio is cutting in and out - is it just me? ←
15:25:27 <stain> pgroth: we should be at a good state to talk about this for the F2F #3 in June
Paul Groth: we should be at a good state to talk about this for the F2F #3 in June ←
15:25:30 <pgroth> Zakim, mute pgroth
Paul Groth: Zakim, mute pgroth ←
15:25:30 <Zakim> pgroth should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should now be muted ←
15:25:33 <stain> but what is your time frame?
but what is your time frame? ←
15:25:36 <kai> Ok, then we focus on the technical mapping and I assume that we document it afterwards.
Kai Eckert: Ok, then we focus on the technical mapping and I assume that we document it afterwards. ←
15:25:43 <stain> dgarijo: will try to have something for review as soon as possible
Daniel Garijo: will try to have something for review as soon as possible ←
15:25:43 <pgroth> Zakim, unmute pgroth
Paul Groth: Zakim, unmute pgroth ←
15:25:43 <Zakim> pgroth should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should no longer be muted ←
15:25:51 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:25:52 <kai> Technical mapping should be available end of June.
Kai Eckert: Technical mapping should be available end of June. ←
15:25:53 <pgroth> ack kai
Paul Groth: ack kai ←
15:25:53 <Zakim> kai, you wanted to ask for a deadline for some text.
Zakim IRC Bot: kai, you wanted to ask for a deadline for some text. ←
15:26:22 <stain> pgroth: question: Do you think, github as a place to manage these drafts.. because of need to work with dublin core people?
Paul Groth: question: Do you think, github as a place to manage these drafts.. because of need to work with dublin core people? ←
15:26:22 <kai> Yes
Kai Eckert: Yes ←
15:26:31 <stain> dgarijo: yes, a place where we can all edit the wiki
Daniel Garijo: yes, a place where we can all edit the wiki ←
15:26:45 <kai> But we will make sure to transfer everything to W3C
Kai Eckert: But we will make sure to transfer everything to W3C ←
15:26:52 <stain> Michael X to edit it, he's not in the W3C
Michael X to edit it, he's not in the W3C ←
15:27:06 <stain> can we add him as an invited expert to the group?
can we add him as an invited expert to the group? ←
15:27:08 <pgroth> Zakim, mute pgroth
Paul Groth: Zakim, mute pgroth ←
15:27:08 <Zakim> pgroth should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should now be muted ←
15:27:10 <dgarijo> Michael Panzer (he was in the incubator)
Daniel Garijo: Michael Panzer (he was in the incubator) ←
15:27:11 <stain> agreements on copyright, etc
agreements on copyright, etc ←
15:27:14 <Zakim> -??P37
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P37 ←
15:27:22 <pgroth> Zakim, unmute pgroth
Paul Groth: Zakim, unmute pgroth ←
15:27:22 <Zakim> pgroth should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should no longer be muted ←
15:27:26 <MacTed> +1 IE invitation -- IPR, editing version history is preserved, etc.
Ted Thibodeau: +1 IE invitation -- IPR, editing version history is preserved, etc. ←
15:27:28 <stain> would avoid any intellectual property issues
would avoid any intellectual property issues ←
15:27:34 <stain> who was last speaker?
who was last speaker? ←
15:27:37 <kai> Of course
Kai Eckert: Of course ←
15:27:40 <jun> test test
15:27:49 <tlebo> @stian, sandro
Timothy Lebo: @stian, sandro ←
15:27:51 <pgroth> Zakim, mute pgroth
Paul Groth: Zakim, mute pgroth ←
15:27:51 <Zakim> pgroth should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should now be muted ←
15:28:00 <stain> sandro: not particularly unusual to join for such a reason
Sandro Hawke: not particularly unusual to join for such a reason ←
15:28:05 <Zakim> +??P3
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P3 ←
15:28:06 <stain> ^^ ?2 is sandro
^^ ?2 is sandro ←
15:28:08 <pgroth> Zakim, unmute pgroth
Paul Groth: Zakim, unmute pgroth ←
15:28:08 <Zakim> pgroth should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should no longer be muted ←
15:28:31 <stain> pgroth: would be best to keep contributions on w3c site for Intellectual property reasons
Paul Groth: would be best to keep contributions on w3c site for Intellectual property reasons ←
15:28:32 <dgarijo> ok, thanks.
Daniel Garijo: ok, thanks. ←
15:28:40 <stain> (action on ? to invite?)
(action on ? to invite?) ←
15:28:45 <Zakim> +??P2
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2 ←
15:28:51 <GK> I seem to be having problems with audio, chat and w3c wiki access... problems with MIT network?
Graham Klyne: I seem to be having problems with audio, chat and w3c wiki access... problems with MIT network? ←
15:28:53 <pgroth> Topic: Definition of Alternate and Specialization
Summary: the group voted on revised versions of definitions for entity, alternate and specialization. These definitions were accepted.
<pgroth> Summary: the group voted on revised versions of definitions for entity, alternate and specialization. These definitions were accepted.
15:29:05 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/SpecializationAlternateDefinitions#Definitions_13_.28refinement_of_12.29
Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/SpecializationAlternateDefinitions#Definitions_13_.28refinement_of_12.29 ←
15:29:16 <stain> AGREED to invite Michael Panzer as invited expert
AGREED to invite Michael Panzer as invited expert ←
15:29:23 <stain> pgroth: we wanted a vote on that
Paul Groth: we wanted a vote on that ←
15:29:40 <stain> pgroth: two options.. one is to include definitions as they stand in DM, and close issue
Paul Groth: two options.. one is to include definitions as they stand in DM, and close issue ←
15:29:46 <stain> pgroth: wrappijng it all up
Paul Groth: wrappijng it all up ←
15:29:52 <stain> pgroth: option 2 - drop the definitions
Paul Groth: option 2 - drop the definitions ←
15:30:03 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:30:06 <GK_> I'm not seeing chat on IRC ..
Graham Klyne: I'm not seeing chat on IRC .. ←
15:30:11 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:30:21 <GK_> .. only on web ... ah it's back aginb
Graham Klyne: .. only on web ... ah it's back aginb ←
15:30:25 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:30:27 <stain> any questions? No..
any questions? No.. ←
15:30:41 <stain> pgroth: go to vote on option 1
Paul Groth: go to vote on option 1 ←
15:30:47 <JimMcCusker> +1
James McCusker: +1 ←
15:30:47 <pgroth> Option 1: Include proposed definitions in prov-dm document and close issue on alternate/specialization
Paul Groth: Option 1: Include proposed definitions in prov-dm document and close issue on alternate/specialization ←
15:30:54 <TomDN> +1
Tom De Nies: +1 ←
15:30:54 <Curt> +1
Curt Tilmes: +1 ←
15:30:55 <Paolo> +1
Paolo Missier: +1 ←
15:30:56 <stain> PROPOSED
PROPOSED ←
15:30:57 <stephenc> +1
Stephen Cresswell: +1 ←
15:30:57 <tlebo> +1
Timothy Lebo: +1 ←
15:30:59 <stain> +1
+1 ←
15:31:01 <smiles> +1
Simon Miles: +1 ←
15:31:03 <zednik> +1
Stephan Zednik: +1 ←
15:31:06 <jcheney> +1
James Cheney: +1 ←
15:31:07 <MacTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
15:31:08 <jun> +1
15:31:13 <Luc> PROPOSED: Option 1: Include proposed definitions in prov-dm document and close issue on alternate/specialization
PROPOSED: Option 1: Include proposed definitions in prov-dm document and close issue on alternate/specialization ←
15:31:15 <satya> +0.5
Satya Sahoo: +0.5 ←
15:31:35 <GK> +0 (not wild about having to escape URIs)
Graham Klyne: +0 (not wild about having to escape URIs) ←
15:31:36 <Luc> graham?
Luc Moreau: graham? ←
15:31:42 <GK> .. (but not objecting)
Graham Klyne: .. (but not objecting) ←
15:31:43 <kai> +0
Kai Eckert: +0 ←
15:31:55 <stain> for reference:
for reference: ←
15:31:55 <stain> * An entity is a physical, digital, conceptual, or other kind of thing with some fixed aspects. Entities may be real or imaginary
* An entity is a physical, digital, conceptual, or other kind of thing with some fixed aspects. Entities may be real or imaginary ←
15:31:58 <stain> * Two alternate entities present aspects of the same thing. These aspects may be the same or different, and the alternate entities may or may not overlap in time
* Two alternate entities present aspects of the same thing. These aspects may be the same or different, and the alternate entities may or may not overlap in time ←
15:32:01 <stain> * An entity that is a specialization of another entity shares all aspects of the latter, and additionally presents more specific aspects of the same thing as the latter. In particular, the lifetime of the specialized entity contains that of any specialization
* An entity that is a specialization of another entity shares all aspects of the latter, and additionally presents more specific aspects of the same thing as the latter. In particular, the lifetime of the specialized entity contains that of any specialization ←
15:32:21 <pgroth> Accepted: Option 1 include proposed definitions in prov-dm document and close issue on alternate/specialization
RESOLVED: Option 1 include proposed definitions in prov-dm document and close issue on alternate/specialization ←
15:32:31 <stain> pgroth: thanks, now we can consider option 2!
Paul Groth: thanks, now we can consider option 2! ←
15:32:34 <stain> ;)
;) ←
15:32:38 <pgroth> Topic: Responsibility
Summary: a proposal was put forward to make derivation independent of the agents/responsibility component of the data model. This proposal was accepted.
<pgroth> Summary: a proposal was put forward to make derivation independent of the agents/responsibility component of the data model. This proposal was accepted.
15:33:01 <stain> Luc to give an overview of what to do about responsibility
Luc to give an overview of what to do about responsibility ←
15:33:06 <stain> Luc: in DM we have a component on Derivation
Luc Moreau: in DM we have a component on Derivation ←
15:33:20 <stain> Luc: that has got wasDerivedFrom and 3 sub-types (more or less)
Luc Moreau: that has got wasDerivedFrom and 3 sub-types (more or less) ←
15:33:30 <stain> Luc: and separate component on Agent and Responsibility
Luc Moreau: and separate component on Agent and Responsibility ←
15:33:42 <stain> Luc: but they are not all orthagonal - some derivation relations that refer to agents
Luc Moreau: but they are not all orthagonal - some derivation relations that refer to agents ←
15:33:52 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:33:54 <stain> Luc: an agent that is responsible for making the revision
Luc Moreau: an agent that is responsible for making the revision ←
15:34:03 <stain> Luc: or an agent that is doing the quote, who produced the original entity
Luc Moreau: or an agent that is doing the quote, who produced the original entity ←
15:34:10 <stain> Luc: some discussion on mailing list
Luc Moreau: some discussion on mailing list ←
15:34:26 <stain> Luc: for simplicitation, it would be good to make derivation independent of agents/responsibility
Luc Moreau: for simplicitation, it would be good to make derivation independent of agents/responsibility ←
15:34:37 <Luc> PROPOSED: drop the reference to agents in derivation relations.
PROPOSED: drop the reference to agents in derivation relations. ←
15:34:50 <dgarijo> +1
Daniel Garijo: +1 ←
15:35:09 <stain> Luc: but if you really want to express responsibility? Then you would use attribution in addition to say the wasrevisionof relation
Luc Moreau: but if you really want to express responsibility? Then you would use attribution in addition to say the wasrevisionof relation ←
15:35:15 <stain> Luc: would simplify both model and ontology
Luc Moreau: would simplify both model and ontology ←
15:35:23 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:35:23 <Curt> +1
Curt Tilmes: +1 ←
15:35:31 <stain> q+
q+ ←
15:35:51 <pgroth> ack stain
Paul Groth: ack stain ←
15:36:16 <dgarijo> Stian: so we no longer have hadQuoter and hadQuotee?
Stian Soiland-Reyes: so we no longer have hadQuoter and hadQuotee? [ Scribe Assist by Daniel Garijo ] ←
15:36:24 <dgarijo> Luc: no
Luc Moreau: no [ Scribe Assist by Daniel Garijo ] ←
15:36:59 <stain> Luc: so you would attribution instead
Luc Moreau: so you would attribution instead ←
15:37:02 <dgarijo> Luc: Instead of having quoter you could use attribution
Luc Moreau: Instead of having quoter you could use attribution [ Scribe Assist by Daniel Garijo ] ←
15:37:09 <TomDN> +1 seems more elegant, and also fits better when asserting what we used to call "imprecise" provenance
Tom De Nies: +1 seems more elegant, and also fits better when asserting what we used to call "imprecise" provenance ←
15:37:38 <zednik> q+
Stephan Zednik: q+ ←
15:37:50 <MacTed> is there a link to the segment being discussed?
Ted Thibodeau: is there a link to the segment being discussed? ←
15:38:01 <TomDN> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/368
Tom De Nies: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/368 ←
15:38:04 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/368
Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/368 ←
15:38:08 <MacTed> I'm having a TERRIBLE time parsing speakers who are not in the room with the speakerphone.
Ted Thibodeau: I'm having a TERRIBLE time parsing speakers who are not in the room with the speakerphone. ←
15:38:27 <pgroth> zakim, mute pgroth
Paul Groth: zakim, mute pgroth ←
15:38:27 <Zakim> pgroth should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should now be muted ←
15:38:32 <stain> people would then write wasQuoteOf(theSentence, romeoAndJuliet) wasAttributedTo(theSentence, Shakespeare) as opposed to wasAttributedTo(theSentence, guyWhoMadeTheQuote)
people would then write wasQuoteOf(theSentence, romeoAndJuliet) wasAttributedTo(theSentence, Shakespeare) as opposed to wasAttributedTo(theSentence, guyWhoMadeTheQuote) ←
15:38:48 <stain> but we could add roles for quoter and quotee
but we could add roles for quoter and quotee ←
15:38:49 <stain> L()
L() ←
15:38:53 <pgroth> zakim, unmute pgroth
Paul Groth: zakim, unmute pgroth ←
15:38:53 <Zakim> pgroth should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should no longer be muted ←
15:38:58 <stain> pgroth: any other implications?
Paul Groth: any other implications? ←
15:39:26 <Curt> revision/quote are simply between entities instead of agents.. You can always figure out the agents from the attribution.
Curt Tilmes: revision/quote are simply between entities instead of agents.. You can always figure out the agents from the attribution. ←
15:39:33 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/368
Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/368 ←
15:39:36 <stain> Luc: on the examples.. they can all be expressed by the proposed changes
Luc Moreau: on the examples.. they can all be expressed by the proposed changes ←
15:39:38 <tlebo> +1 to proposal, hadQuoter can be modeled with Attribution with role "quoter"
Timothy Lebo: +1 to proposal, hadQuoter can be modeled with Attribution with role "quoter" ←
15:39:45 <stain> Luc: in issue 368
Luc Moreau: in ISSUE-368 ←
15:39:52 <stain> (we can't resolve it as w3c is flaky)
(we can't resolve it as w3c is flaky) ←
15:40:09 <stain> Google Chrome could not connect to www.w3.org (!!)
Google Chrome could not connect to www.w3.org (!!) ←
15:40:20 <pgroth> zakim, mute pgroth
Paul Groth: zakim, mute pgroth ←
15:40:20 <Zakim> pgroth should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should now be muted ←
15:40:37 <pgroth> zakim, umute pgroth
Paul Groth: zakim, umute pgroth ←
15:40:37 <Zakim> I don't understand 'umute pgroth', pgroth
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'umute pgroth', pgroth ←
15:40:38 <stain> In the spirit of simplification, I would like to suggest that agents should not be mentioned in derivation relations.
In the spirit of simplification, I would like to suggest that agents should not be mentioned in derivation relations. ←
15:40:41 <stain> Instead of wasRevisionOf(id,e2,e1,ag,attrs)
Instead of wasRevisionOf(id,e2,e1,ag,attrs) ←
15:40:43 <stain> we should write wasRevisionOf(id,e2,e1,attrs) and wasAttributedTo(e2,ag)
we should write wasRevisionOf(id,e2,e1,attrs) and wasAttributedTo(e2,ag) ←
15:40:46 <stain> Instead of wasQuotedFrom(id,e2,e1,ag2,ag1,attrs)
Instead of wasQuotedFrom(id,e2,e1,ag2,ag1,attrs) ←
15:40:47 <stain> we should write: wasQuotedFrom(id,e2,e1,attrs) and wasAttributedTo(e1,ag1) and wasAttributedTo(e2,ag2)
we should write: wasQuotedFrom(id,e2,e1,attrs) and wasAttributedTo(e1,ag1) and wasAttributedTo(e2,ag2) ←
15:40:57 <stain> (from Luc's email on ISSUE-368)
(from Luc's email on ISSUE-368) ←
15:41:06 <pgroth> PROPOSED: drop the reference to agents in derivation relations.
PROPOSED: drop the reference to agents in derivation relations. ←
15:41:17 <Paolo> silence...
Paolo Missier: silence... ←
15:41:19 <MacTed> +1 as proposed on http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/368 (which is not the same as "drop the reference to agents in derivation relations.")
Ted Thibodeau: +1 as proposed on http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/368 (which is not the same as "drop the reference to agents in derivation relations.") ←
15:41:21 <stain> I've not got any sound.. are anyone talking? Last one was "I got the implications now"
I've not got any sound.. are anyone talking? Last one was "I got the implications now" ←
15:41:24 <TomDN> +1
Tom De Nies: +1 ←
15:41:33 <sandro> Luc ?
Sandro Hawke: Luc ? ←
15:41:33 <Luc> can you hear us?
Luc Moreau: can you hear us? ←
15:41:33 <GK> In the issue, I assume e1, e2 are entities?
Graham Klyne: In the issue, I assume e1, e2 are entities? ←
15:41:36 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
15:41:36 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted ←
15:41:37 <dgarijo> nope
Daniel Garijo: nope ←
15:41:39 <TomDN> Zakim, unmute pgroth
Tom De Nies: Zakim, unmute pgroth ←
15:41:39 <Zakim> pgroth should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should no longer be muted ←
15:41:41 <sandro> cant hear you luc
Sandro Hawke: cant hear you luc ←
15:41:45 <tlebo> +1 to proposal, since hadQuoter can be modeled with Attribution with role "quoter"
Timothy Lebo: +1 to proposal, since hadQuoter can be modeled with Attribution with role "quoter" ←
15:41:45 <dgarijo> yes
Daniel Garijo: yes ←
15:41:58 <stain> Luc and pgroth are on the same phone
Luc and pgroth are on the same phone ←
15:42:07 <jcheney> Speakerphone is causing everyone else to echo.
James Cheney: Speakerphone is causing everyone else to echo. ←
15:42:08 <stain> @tlebo agree
@tlebo agree ←
15:42:33 <stain> ?: Agree with text in ISSUE, but not on proposal
Ted Thibodeau: Agree with text in ISSUE, but not on proposal ←
15:42:40 <tlebo> @stian, MacTed
Timothy Lebo: @stian, MacTed ←
15:42:41 <Luc> PROPOSED: agents should not be mentioned in derivation relations.
PROPOSED: agents should not be mentioned in derivation relations. ←
15:42:46 <MacTed> s/?:/MacTed:/
15:43:00 <kai> @GK: same here
Kai Eckert: @GK: same here ←
15:43:01 <stain> can we not say 'as in ISSUE-368' ?
can we not say 'as in ISSUE-368' ? ←
15:43:18 <MacTed> PROPOSED: adopt changes as put forth in http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/368
PROPOSED: adopt changes as put forth in http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/368 ←
15:43:31 <stain> ISSUE-368 can be changed, so we need to state explicitly
ISSUE-368 can be changed, so we need to state explicitly ←
15:43:44 <stain> Vote now please
Vote now please ←
15:43:44 <MacTed> s/in drop/in/
Ted Thibodeau: s/in drop/in/ (warning: replacement failed) ←
15:43:44 <smiles> +1
Simon Miles: +1 ←
15:43:45 <TomDN> +1
Tom De Nies: +1 ←
15:43:45 <stain> +1
+1 ←
15:43:46 <MacTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
15:43:47 <satya> +1
Satya Sahoo: +1 ←
15:43:48 <jcheney> +1
James Cheney: +1 ←
15:43:49 <jun> +1
15:43:49 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
15:43:51 <GK> +1
Graham Klyne: +1 ←
15:43:53 <zednik> +1
Stephan Zednik: +1 ←
15:43:54 <dgarijo> +1
Daniel Garijo: +1 ←
15:43:56 <Paolo> +1
Paolo Missier: +1 ←
15:43:56 <tlebo> +1
Timothy Lebo: +1 ←
15:43:59 <kai> +1
Kai Eckert: +1 ←
15:44:08 <Curt> +1
Curt Tilmes: +1 ←
15:44:12 <sandro> quoting that issue page, for the record:
Sandro Hawke: quoting that issue page, for the record: ←
15:44:13 <pgroth> Accepted: adopt changes as put forth in http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/368
RESOLVED: adopt changes as put forth in http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/368 ←
15:44:14 <sandro> In the spirit of simplification, I would like to suggest that agents should not be mentioned in derivation relations.
Sandro Hawke: In the spirit of simplification, I would like to suggest that agents should not be mentioned in derivation relations. ←
15:44:14 <sandro> Instead of
Sandro Hawke: Instead of ←
15:44:14 <sandro> wasRevisionOf(id,e2,e1,ag,attrs)
Sandro Hawke: wasRevisionOf(id,e2,e1,ag,attrs) ←
15:44:14 <sandro> we should write
Sandro Hawke: we should write ←
15:44:14 <sandro> wasRevisionOf(id,e2,e1,attrs)
Sandro Hawke: wasRevisionOf(id,e2,e1,attrs) ←
15:44:17 <sandro> and wasAttributedTo(e2,ag)
Sandro Hawke: and wasAttributedTo(e2,ag) ←
15:44:19 <sandro> Instead of
Sandro Hawke: Instead of ←
15:44:19 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
15:44:20 <sandro> wasQuotedFrom(id,e2,e1,ag2,ag1,attrs)
Sandro Hawke: wasQuotedFrom(id,e2,e1,ag2,ag1,attrs) ←
15:44:20 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
15:44:22 <sandro> we should write:
Sandro Hawke: we should write: ←
15:44:24 <sandro> wasQuotedFrom(id,e2,e1,attrs)
Sandro Hawke: wasQuotedFrom(id,e2,e1,attrs) ←
15:44:26 <sandro> and wasAttributedTo(e1,ag1)
Sandro Hawke: and wasAttributedTo(e1,ag1) ←
15:44:28 <sandro> and wasAttributedTo(e2,ag2)
Sandro Hawke: and wasAttributedTo(e2,ag2) ←
15:44:31 <pgroth> Topic: PROV Notation Optional Identifiers Syntax
Summary: A discussion was had around the notation for optional identifiers used in prov-n. It was felt that there were wider issues with respect to the prov-n notation that needed to be considered. The editors were given guidance to move forward with the use of ";" as a marker for optional identifiers and based on this address other outstanding issues with respect to the syntax. Group members were then encouraged to make comments on the entirety of the revised document.
<pgroth> Summary: A discussion was had around the notation for optional identifiers used in prov-n. It was felt that there were wider issues with respect to the prov-n notation that needed to be considered. The editors were given guidance to move forward with the use of ";" as a marker for optional identifiers and based on this address other outstanding issues with respect to the syntax. Group members were then encouraged to make comments on the entirety of the revised document.
15:44:32 <sandro> We are not losing in expressivity, I believe, instead, we decouple components 2 and 3 in the data model.
Sandro Hawke: We are not losing in expressivity, I believe, instead, we decouple components 2 and 3 in the data model. ←
15:44:48 <stain> pgroth: PROV-N editors to summarize for us..?
Paul Groth: PROV-N editors to summarize for us..? ←
15:44:58 <stain> jcheney raised the issue
jcheney raised the issue ←
15:45:01 <pgroth> Zakim, mute pgroth
Paul Groth: Zakim, mute pgroth ←
15:45:01 <Zakim> pgroth should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should now be muted ←
15:45:14 <jcheney> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/index.php?title=OptionalSyntax
James Cheney: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/index.php?title=OptionalSyntax ←
15:45:18 <stain> jcheney: alternative proposals on this page
James Cheney: alternative proposals on this page ←
15:45:35 <stain> jcheney: some relations in PROV-N are... (?)
James Cheney: some relations in PROV-N are... (?) ←
15:45:40 <stain> vox dead?
vox dead? ←
15:45:48 <Zakim> -??P11
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P11 ←
15:45:50 <stain> SCRIBE OFFLINE
SCRIBE OFFLINE ←
15:46:21 <Luc> jcheney: prov-n notation difficult to parse for humans who have not studied the grammar
James Cheney: prov-n notation difficult to parse for humans who have not studied the grammar [ Scribe Assist by Luc Moreau ] ←
15:46:37 <GK> jcheney: in some cases, exp[ressions are hard to parse when some optional arguments are missing
James Cheney: in some cases, exp[ressions are hard to parse when some optional arguments are missing [ Scribe Assist by Graham Klyne ] ←
15:46:53 <Luc> jcheney: in particular, for relations that takes an optional first identifier
James Cheney: in particular, for relations that takes an optional first identifier [ Scribe Assist by Luc Moreau ] ←
15:47:29 <GK> jcheney - prefer option 1 as its more similar to current syntax
Graham Klyne: jcheney - prefer option 1 as its more similar to current syntax ←
15:47:50 <stain> why does current syntax matter if we are proposing a solution for people who don't know syntax?
why does current syntax matter if we are proposing a solution for people who don't know syntax? ←
15:48:02 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
15:48:02 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted ←
15:48:03 <MacTed> q+
Ted Thibodeau: q+ ←
15:48:09 <zednik> q-
Stephan Zednik: q- ←
15:48:11 <Zakim> +??P5
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P5 ←
15:48:17 <stain> I' can scribe again
I' can scribe again ←
15:48:18 <Paolo> yes
Paolo Missier: yes ←
15:48:21 <pgroth> Zakim, unmute pgroth
Paul Groth: Zakim, unmute pgroth ←
15:48:21 <Zakim> pgroth should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should no longer be muted ←
15:48:52 <stain> Luc: not to make a change on PROV-N too often as we need to go through all the documents!
Luc Moreau: not to make a change on PROV-N too often as we need to go through all the documents! ←
15:49:01 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:49:09 <stain> jcheney: At least if we make a simple change, then.. (?)
James Cheney: At least if we make a simple change, then.. (?) ←
15:49:18 <pgroth> Zakim, mute pgroth
Paul Groth: Zakim, mute pgroth ←
15:49:18 <Zakim> pgroth should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should now be muted ←
15:49:25 <stain> MacTed: made a comment on this in my review of PROV-O (?)
Ted Thibodeau: made a comment on this in my review of PROV-O (?) ←
15:49:51 <stain> MacTed: on optional values, when they are not easilbly determinable, you need to put blanks all the time - no matter if it's comma or semicolon
Ted Thibodeau: on optional values, when they are not easilbly determinable, you need to put blanks all the time - no matter if it's comma or semicolon ←
15:50:08 <stain> MacTed: I would stay with comma as it is, but suggest that every expression would have at least a comma or space and a comma
Ted Thibodeau: I would stay with comma as it is, but suggest that every expression would have at least a comma or space and a comma ←
15:50:10 <Luc> but we allow -
Luc Moreau: but we allow - ←
15:50:28 <pgroth> yes
Paul Groth: yes ←
15:50:28 <stain> MacTed: so you would need ,, to say which optional things are left out
Ted Thibodeau: so you would need ,, to say which optional things are left out ←
15:50:44 <stain> jcheney: other things that seem ambigious.. namely sometimes two-three other optional arguments
James Cheney: other things that seem ambigious.. namely sometimes two-three other optional arguments ←
15:50:53 <stain> jcheney: this proposal is only adressing identifer being optional
James Cheney: this proposal is only adressing identifer being optional ←
15:50:58 <Paolo> q+
Paolo Missier: q+ ←
15:51:13 <stain> MacTed: just adressing identifiers is not going far enough, it should be for all optionals
Ted Thibodeau: just adressing identifiers is not going far enough, it should be for all optionals ←
15:51:21 <stain> jcheney: other proposals would give more owkr
James Cheney: other proposals would give more owkr ←
15:51:22 <stain> work
work ←
15:51:23 <pgroth> ack MacTed
Paul Groth: ack MacTed ←
15:51:40 <pgroth> paolo go ahead
Paul Groth: paolo go ahead ←
15:51:49 <stain> jcheney: question now is to decrease the ambigioutity, and then think about further ambigiuoty
James Cheney: question now is to decrease the ambigioutity, and then think about further ambigiuoty ←
15:51:58 <stain> jcheney: if there's a ; - then first argument before ; is the identifier
James Cheney: if there's a ; - then first argument before ; is the identifier ←
15:52:22 <stain> jcheney: other ways have been discussed - not saying it's the only way, but it's the smallest change
James Cheney: other ways have been discussed - not saying it's the only way, but it's the smallest change ←
15:52:35 <stain> MacTed: as it's not the only problem, w hy not address the whole problem?
Ted Thibodeau: as it's not the only problem, w hy not address the whole problem? ←
15:52:45 <pgroth> Zakim, unmute pgroth
Paul Groth: Zakim, unmute pgroth ←
15:52:45 <Zakim> pgroth should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should no longer be muted ←
15:52:51 <stain> jcheney: not deciding on how to put these as proposals
James Cheney: not deciding on how to put these as proposals ←
15:52:52 <pgroth> Zakim, mute pgroth
Paul Groth: Zakim, mute pgroth ←
15:52:52 <Zakim> pgroth should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should now be muted ←
15:53:11 <stain> Paolo: the main reason why this was brought up is that several people spotted it was difficult to parse arguments with multiple optionals
Paolo Missier: the main reason why this was brought up is that several people spotted it was difficult to parse arguments with multiple optionals ←
15:53:21 <Luc> I believe all james suggestions are already implemented or become implementable, if we have a syntactic marker for optional identifier (such as ;)
Luc Moreau: I believe all james suggestions are already implemented or become implementable, if we have a syntactic marker for optional identifier (such as ;) ←
15:53:35 <stain> Paolo: identifier is odd in taht it can be optional and left out totally, while the others hate placeholder -, except the attributes that are last
Paolo Missier: identifier is odd in taht it can be optional and left out totally, while the others hate placeholder -, except the attributes that are last ←
15:53:47 <Luc> I believe all james suggestions are already implemented or become implementable, if we have a syntactic marker for optional identifier (such as ';' )
Luc Moreau: I believe all james suggestions are already implemented or become implementable, if we have a syntactic marker for optional identifier (such as ';' ) ←
15:53:55 <stain> Paolo: rational was that because identifers are expected to be used barely - so a placeholder fo rthem all the time is too verbose
Paolo Missier: rational was that because identifers are expected to be used barely - so a placeholder fo rthem all the time is too verbose ←
15:54:02 <jcheney> @MacTed: here is the full proposal I suggested: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Optional_arguments
James Cheney: @MacTed: here is the full proposal I suggested: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Optional_arguments ←
15:54:10 <jcheney> ... the three parts are orthogonal
James Cheney: ... the three parts are orthogonal ←
15:54:32 <stain> Paolo: trying to retain readability - like if there's not a semicolon then there's no identifier, and other missing optionals expressed using -
Paolo Missier: trying to retain readability - like if there's not a semicolon then there's no identifier, and other missing optionals expressed using - ←
15:54:40 <pgroth> Zakim, unmute pgroth
Paul Groth: Zakim, unmute pgroth ←
15:54:40 <Zakim> pgroth should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should no longer be muted ←
15:54:40 <GK> Based on what Paolo says, no other changes would be needed ... or am I missing something?
Graham Klyne: Based on what Paolo says, no other changes would be needed ... or am I missing something? ←
15:54:52 <Luc> q+
Luc Moreau: q+ ←
15:54:55 <Paolo> @GK yes that's my implication, too
Paolo Missier: @GK yes that's my implication, too ←
15:55:00 <satya> @GK, agree
Satya Sahoo: @GK, agree ←
15:55:09 <stain> @GK that's right, I think Luc has checked that everything else uses - for intermediate optionals in examples
@GK that's right, I think Luc has checked that everything else uses - for intermediate optionals in examples ←
15:55:22 <pgroth> ack Paolo
Paul Groth: ack Paolo ←
15:55:37 <stain> ?: will we comprehend the full implications if we do it one by one
?: will we comprehend the full implications if we do it one by one ←
15:55:40 <stain> (MacTed?)
(MacTed?) ←
15:55:43 <pgroth> ack pgroth
Paul Groth: ack pgroth ←
15:55:47 <pgroth> ack Luc
Paul Groth: ack Luc ←
15:56:06 <stain> Luc: jcheney listed another suggestion.. one was .. to see if there was an optional identifier or not
Luc Moreau: jcheney listed another suggestion.. one was .. to see if there was an optional identifier or not ←
15:56:18 <stain> Luc: once that is in place, there are a few tweaks that can be implemented
Luc Moreau: once that is in place, there are a few tweaks that can be implemented ←
15:56:31 <stain> Luc: all suggestions by jcheney will be supported (??)
Luc Moreau: all suggestions by jcheney will be supported (??) ←
15:56:53 <stain> Luc: a lot of work to.. want to have guidance if it's the right step
Luc Moreau: a lot of work to.. want to have guidance if it's the right step ←
15:57:08 <Zakim> -??P33
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P33 ←
15:57:10 <stain> Luc: to take the optional id with semicolon - parsers that check this.. time consuming
Luc Moreau: to take the optional id with semicolon - parsers that check this.. time consuming ←
15:57:15 <tlebo> isn't prov-n for human readability?
Timothy Lebo: isn't prov-n for human readability? ←
15:57:16 <stain> Luc: if we know we don't want a certain notation
Luc Moreau: if we know we don't want a certain notation ←
15:57:31 <Paolo> @Luc +1
Paolo Missier: @Luc +1 ←
15:57:34 <jcheney> q+
James Cheney: q+ ←
15:57:45 <pgroth> Zakim, mute pgroth
Paul Groth: Zakim, mute pgroth ←
15:57:45 <Zakim> pgroth should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should now be muted ←
15:57:50 <pgroth> ack jcheney
Paul Groth: ack jcheney ←
15:57:51 <stain> I'm not sure what Luc is proposing - implement ALL of the proposals??
I'm not sure what Luc is proposing - implement ALL of the proposals?? ←
15:58:13 <tlebo> +1 for that semicolon, acknowledging that it's not a "complete solution", as @macted points out.
Timothy Lebo: +1 for that semicolon, acknowledging that it's not a "complete solution", as @macted points out. ←
15:58:14 <stain> jcheney: is the idea now to propose one of these, or see if it's something we want to do in principle
James Cheney: is the idea now to propose one of these, or see if it's something we want to do in principle ←
15:58:37 <stain> jcheney: would you be happier if the proposal was not binding, but just start with this design decission, then a few others, and form a complete proposal?
James Cheney: would you be happier if the proposal was not binding, but just start with this design decission, then a few others, and form a complete proposal? ←
15:58:44 <stain> MacTed: not able to see what the real question is
Ted Thibodeau: not able to see what the real question is ←
15:59:04 <stain> MacTed: if question is - do we need to deal specifally with optional identifiers - then if ; is OK is a second question
Ted Thibodeau: if question is - do we need to deal specifally with optional identifiers - then if ; is OK is a second question ←
15:59:13 <Paolo> q+
Paolo Missier: q+ ←
15:59:13 <stain> MacTed: how do we deal with optionals anywhere is a different question
Ted Thibodeau: how do we deal with optionals anywhere is a different question ←
15:59:18 <pgroth> Zakim, unmute pgroth
Paul Groth: Zakim, unmute pgroth ←
15:59:18 <Zakim> pgroth should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should no longer be muted ←
15:59:19 <stain> MacTed: not just for identifier
Ted Thibodeau: not just for identifier ←
15:59:25 <pgroth> ack Paolo
Paul Groth: ack Paolo ←
15:59:28 <stain> jcheney: this is strictly for optional identifier
James Cheney: this is strictly for optional identifier ←
15:59:32 <pgroth> Zakim, mute pgroth
Paul Groth: Zakim, mute pgroth ←
15:59:32 <Zakim> pgroth should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should now be muted ←
15:59:49 <stain> Paolo: my understanding is that the issue of identifiers separately, then everything else falls in place and no more need to do anything
Paolo Missier: my understanding is that the issue of identifiers separately, then everything else falls in place and no more need to do anything ←
15:59:52 <Curt> The optional identifier is special. Almost everything allows them, but they are quite frequently not required.
Curt Tilmes: The optional identifier is special. Almost everything allows them, but they are quite frequently not required. ←
15:59:59 <stain> Paolo: the sooner we get a stable syntax, the better, tools are being made
Paolo Missier: the sooner we get a stable syntax, the better, tools are being made ←
16:00:11 <stain> Paolo: as far as I see there is no more work
Paolo Missier: as far as I see there is no more work ←
16:00:14 <Curt> Quite frequently not needed by a particular application/use case I mean.
Curt Tilmes: Quite frequently not needed by a particular application/use case I mean. ←
16:00:25 <stain> MacTed: then the other notations I would try to make sense of in PROV-O (?) would not..(?)
Ted Thibodeau: then the other notations I would try to make sense of in PROV-O (?) would not..(?) ←
16:00:45 <tlebo> @macted, prov-n is used in prov-o ?
Timothy Lebo: @macted, prov-n is used in prov-o ? ←
16:00:50 <stain> MacTed: no, Prov-N is used to understand PROv-O (??)
Ted Thibodeau: no, Prov-N is used to understand PROv-O (??) ←
16:00:51 <pgroth> Zakim, unmute pgroth
Paul Groth: Zakim, unmute pgroth ←
16:00:51 <Zakim> pgroth should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should no longer be muted ←
16:00:55 <stain> MacTed: there are too many optional things
Ted Thibodeau: there are too many optional things ←
16:00:57 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
16:01:03 <stain> MacTed: doing something about identifiers does not solve anything
Ted Thibodeau: doing something about identifiers does not solve anything ←
16:01:05 <Luc> @macted, i don't understand what you said
Luc Moreau: @macted, i don't understand what you said ←
16:01:10 <tlebo> q+ to ask Macted for a URL to this prov-o that uses prov-n
Timothy Lebo: q+ to ask Macted for a URL to this prov-o that uses prov-n ←
16:01:16 <stain> @MacTed how is PROV-O using PROV-N?
@MacTed how is PROV-O using PROV-N? ←
16:01:23 <Luc> @macted, i don't understand how prov-n impacts prov-o
Luc Moreau: @macted, i don't understand how prov-n impacts prov-o ←
16:01:23 <jcheney> @MacTed: Please read this: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Optional_arguments
James Cheney: @MacTed: Please read this: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Optional_arguments ←
16:01:27 <stain> MacTed: adressing all optional things would also address identifiers
Ted Thibodeau: adressing all optional things would also address identifiers ←
16:01:27 <Luc> q+
Luc Moreau: q+ ←
16:01:46 <stain> tlebo: confused by MacTed claiming PROV-N is used by PROV-O
Timothy Lebo: confused by MacTed claiming PROV-N is used by PROV-O ←
16:02:06 <pgroth> ack tlebo
Paul Groth: ack tlebo ←
16:02:06 <tlebo> *PROV-N is used to describe PROV-O
Timothy Lebo: *PROV-N is used to describe PROV-O ←
16:02:07 <Zakim> tlebo, you wanted to ask Macted for a URL to this prov-o that uses prov-n
Zakim IRC Bot: tlebo, you wanted to ask Macted for a URL to this prov-o that uses prov-n ←
16:02:16 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvRDF
Timothy Lebo: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvRDF ←
16:02:17 <satya> peraps referring to our dm to RDF mapping wiki page?
Satya Sahoo: peraps referring to our dm to RDF mapping wiki page? ←
16:02:28 <Paolo> well I guess it's the DM which specifies the optionals, and that is what impacts PROV-O?
Paolo Missier: well I guess it's the DM which specifies the optionals, and that is what impacts PROV-O? ←
16:02:41 <satya> per/h/aps
Satya Sahoo: per/h/aps ←
16:02:41 <stain> @Paolo yes
@Paolo yes ←
16:02:51 <stain> @Paolo but syntax and order, not
@Paolo but syntax and order, not ←
16:02:54 <Paolo> so I understand that the issue is not PROV-N after all
Paolo Missier: so I understand that the issue is not PROV-N after all ←
16:03:11 <Paolo> I mean MacTed's issue
Paolo Missier: I mean MacTed's issue ←
16:03:36 <Paolo> is about PROV-DM, not PROV-N
Paolo Missier: is about PROV-DM, not PROV-N ←
16:03:46 <stain> I think MacTed should raise a separate issue if he has a problem relating PROV-O/PROV-N
I think MacTed should raise a separate issue if he has a problem relating PROV-O/PROV-N ←
16:04:15 <stain> MacTed: tere are other optionals, not just identifier. If every optional has placeholder, I don't see need for the special thing on identifier
Ted Thibodeau: tere are other optionals, not just identifier. If every optional has placeholder, I don't see need for the special thing on identifier ←
16:04:23 <Luc> q+
Luc Moreau: q+ ←
16:04:34 <stain> MacTed: easiest solution is to make identifier the last argument
Ted Thibodeau: easiest solution is to make identifier the last argument ←
16:04:35 <stain> +1
+1 ←
16:04:40 <Luc> wasDerivedFrom(e1,e2)
Luc Moreau: wasDerivedFrom(e1,e2) ←
16:04:47 <satya> @mac, agree, I think that will work better
Satya Sahoo: @mac, agree, I think that will work better ←
16:04:50 <stain> Luc: we want to express simple things easily
Luc Moreau: we want to express simple things easily ←
16:04:54 <Luc> wasDerivedFrom(id;e1,e2)
Luc Moreau: wasDerivedFrom(id;e1,e2) ←
16:05:06 <Luc> wasDerivedFrom(id;e1,e2,a,g,u)
Luc Moreau: wasDerivedFrom(id;e1,e2,a,g,u) ←
16:05:08 <stain> and because of {attrs} it's easy to parse the argument after
and because of {attrs} it's easy to parse the argument after ←
16:05:19 <Luc> wasDerivedFrom(id;e1,e2,a,-,u)
Luc Moreau: wasDerivedFrom(id;e1,e2,a,-,u) ←
16:05:22 <stain> Luc: .. or we may just keep identifier on some of them
Luc Moreau: .. or we may just keep identifier on some of them ←
16:05:26 <Paolo> @MacTed we are actually using the the "last argument omitted" rule for optional attributes already...
Paolo Missier: @MacTed we are actually using the the "last argument omitted" rule for optional attributes already... ←
16:05:30 <tlebo> @mac, I disagree, the intent for prov-n is for Humans to read, the identifier (if there) is the SUBJECT of the assertion (and thus belongs in the beginning).
Timothy Lebo: @mac, I disagree, the intent for prov-n is for Humans to read, the identifier (if there) is the SUBJECT of the assertion (and thus belongs in the beginning). ←
16:05:41 <jcheney> i.e. don't want to say wasDerivedFrom(-,e1,e2) when id is missing.
James Cheney: i.e. don't want to say wasDerivedFrom(-,e1,e2) when id is missing. ←
16:05:46 <stain> Luc: Rule is we got some mandatory arguments, like e1, e2, the others are optional.
Luc Moreau: Rule is we got some mandatory arguments, like e1, e2, the others are optional. ←
16:05:57 <Luc> wasDerivedFrom(e1,e2)
Luc Moreau: wasDerivedFrom(e1,e2) ←
16:06:00 <stain> Luc: if the remaining optional arguments are not expressed, nothing needs to be written, like above
Luc Moreau: if the remaining optional arguments are not expressed, nothing needs to be written, like above ←
16:06:15 <stain> Luc: otherwise, we do like suggested, with a placeholder for optional argument not there.
Luc Moreau: otherwise, we do like suggested, with a placeholder for optional argument not there. ←
16:06:26 <stain> Luc: but to handle the first optional (the identifier) differently
Luc Moreau: but to handle the first optional (the identifier) differently ←
16:06:28 <Zakim> -??P3
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P3 ←
16:06:30 <kai> Have to leave soon, too. FWIW, I prefer to externalize the ID, seems most intuitive to me for all people but LISPians.
Kai Eckert: Have to leave soon, too. FWIW, I prefer to externalize the ID, seems most intuitive to me for all people but LISPians. ←
16:06:39 <satya> the id is for "wasDerivedFrom(e1, e2)" so it should be "id(wasDerivedFrom(e1, e2))"
Satya Sahoo: the id is for "wasDerivedFrom(e1, e2)" so it should be "id(wasDerivedFrom(e1, e2))" ←
16:07:07 <stain> not just inside..
not just inside.. ←
16:07:16 <Luc> @satya, we don't identify a description but a derivation!
Luc Moreau: @satya, we don't identify a description but a derivation! ←
16:07:17 <Paolo> @kai and but logic programmers as well :-)
Paolo Missier: @kai and but logic programmers as well :-) ←
16:07:24 <stain> so something like wasDerivedFrom(e1, e2) : id or id: wasDerivedFrom(e1, e2)
so something like wasDerivedFrom(e1, e2) : id or id: wasDerivedFrom(e1, e2) ←
16:07:36 <satya> @stain, exactly
Satya Sahoo: @stain, exactly ←
16:07:46 <stain> pgroth: suggest for now to send around page again and gather more suggestions
Paul Groth: suggest for now to send around page again and gather more suggestions ←
16:07:50 <stain> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/OptionalSyntax
http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/OptionalSyntax ←
16:07:55 <kai> @paolo: right. And indeed I don't like it for the entity statement, as there an ID is needed, IMHO.
Kai Eckert: @paolo: right. And indeed I don't like it for the entity statement, as there an ID is needed, IMHO. ←
16:07:56 <stain> vote next week
vote next week ←
16:07:57 <satya> @luc, yes the id for the assertion about the derivation
Satya Sahoo: @luc, yes the id for the assertion about the derivation ←
16:08:04 <stain> it seems like there won't be progress on PROV-N until this is sorted
it seems like there won't be progress on PROV-N until this is sorted ←
16:08:09 <Paolo> @satya, stian: please go through the wiki page, similar proposals to yours are there
Paolo Missier: @satya, stian: please go through the wiki page, similar proposals to yours are there ←
16:08:10 <Luc> q+
Luc Moreau: q+ ←
16:08:17 <pgroth> ack Luc
Paul Groth: ack Luc ←
16:08:20 <kai> @paolo: maybe a compromise, externalize it only if it is optional?
Kai Eckert: @paolo: maybe a compromise, externalize it only if it is optional? ←
16:08:32 <stain> Luc: would not want to delay this, we want to do a revised draft in 4 weeks time
Luc Moreau: would not want to delay this, we want to do a revised draft in 4 weeks time ←
16:08:40 <stain> Luc: delay by 1 week is..
Luc Moreau: delay by 1 week is.. ←
16:08:45 <satya> @paolo, yes I agree with the proposals - I was just trying to clarify the issues from Mac's statement
Satya Sahoo: @paolo, yes I agree with the proposals - I was just trying to clarify the issues from Mac's statement ←
16:08:48 <Paolo> @kai ID /is/ optional!
Paolo Missier: @kai ID /is/ optional! ←
16:08:48 <stain> Luc: putting those drafts in danger
Luc Moreau: putting those drafts in danger ←
16:09:03 <kai> @paolo: also for entity?
Kai Eckert: @paolo: also for entity? ←
16:09:14 <stain> is there an id for the entity record? (bomb shell!)
is there an id for the entity record? (bomb shell!) ←
16:09:25 <tlebo> @stian, no.
Timothy Lebo: @stian, no. ←
16:09:36 <stain> jcheney: sounds like we can say go ahead with this, without having to decide.. (?)
Sandro Hawke: sounds like we can say go ahead with this, without having to decide.. (?) ←
16:09:40 <stain> MacTed agrees
MacTed agrees ←
16:09:49 <jcheney> that wasn't me! (sandrio, I think)
James Cheney: that wasn't me! (sandrio, I think) ←
16:09:55 <stain> hihi
hihi ←
16:10:00 <kai> @paolo: From the wiki: e AS entity(attrs). Makes entity(attrs) sense without e, i.e., the ID?
Kai Eckert: @paolo: From the wiki: e AS entity(attrs). Makes entity(attrs) sense without e, i.e., the ID? ←
16:10:17 <Paolo> @kai yes it's the ID /of the relation/ we are talking about
Paolo Missier: @kai yes it's the ID /of the relation/ we are talking about ←
16:10:26 <Paolo> not of the entity
Paolo Missier: not of the entity ←
16:10:34 <jcheney> q+
James Cheney: q+ ←
16:10:34 <stain> pgroth: what about just using the semicolon as suggested, about making other things optional is about readability
Paul Groth: what about just using the semicolon as suggested, about making other things optional is about readability ←
16:10:37 <MacTed> s/jcheney/sandro/
16:10:39 <pgroth> ack jcheney
Paul Groth: ack jcheney ←
16:10:43 <jcheney> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Optional_arguments
James Cheney: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Optional_arguments ←
16:10:49 <tlebo> +1 semicolon
Timothy Lebo: +1 semicolon ←
16:10:49 <pgroth> Zakim, mute pgroth
Paul Groth: Zakim, mute pgroth ←
16:10:49 <Zakim> pgroth should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should now be muted ←
16:10:53 <kai> @paolo. ok. then I prefer externalization even more, to avoid that confusion
Kai Eckert: @paolo. ok. then I prefer externalization even more, to avoid that confusion ←
16:11:05 <Paolo> @kai that seems wrong! I'll check the wiki
Paolo Missier: @kai that seems wrong! I'll check the wiki ←
16:11:08 <stain> jcheney: as pointed out there are other ambiguoities, listed on wiki page above
James Cheney: as pointed out there are other ambiguoities, listed on wiki page above ←
16:11:12 <kai> @paolo: not the first time that I confused that, sorry. But maybe this also is a point.
Kai Eckert: @paolo: not the first time that I confused that, sorry. But maybe this also is a point. ←
16:11:14 <stain> ... believe not many have looked at it
... believe not many have looked at it ←
16:11:36 <tlebo> externalization is a scary slope - it looks like an identifier for the record itself (and it's not)
Timothy Lebo: externalization is a scary slope - it looks like an identifier for the record itself (and it's not) ←
16:11:43 <stain> jcheney: will look at the other comments and revise this proposal
James Cheney: will look at the other comments and revise this proposal ←
16:11:45 <Paolo> @kai agreed -- simple rule is, if we are confused, everyone else will be
Paolo Missier: @kai agreed -- simple rule is, if we are confused, everyone else will be ←
16:12:09 <stain> @tlebo yeah
@tlebo yeah ←
16:12:18 <stain> Page is difficult to understand
Page is difficult to understand ←
16:12:36 <stain> the optional syntax page
the optional syntax page ←
16:12:38 <MacTed> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/OptionalSyntax would be easier to comprehend as a table
Ted Thibodeau: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/OptionalSyntax would be easier to comprehend as a table ←
16:12:48 <kai> Have to leave, sorry. Bye
Kai Eckert: Have to leave, sorry. Bye ←
16:12:56 <pgroth> Zakim, unmute pgroth
Paul Groth: Zakim, unmute pgroth ←
16:12:56 <Zakim> pgroth should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should no longer be muted ←
16:13:04 <stain> (I'll reallyt have to go soon too.. any backup scribes?)
(I'll reallyt have to go soon too.. any backup scribes?) ←
16:13:22 <dgarijo> @Stian I can continue
Daniel Garijo: @Stian I can continue ←
16:13:30 <stain> thanks, take over
thanks, take over ←
16:13:35 <Zakim> -??P5
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P5 ←
16:13:52 <tlebo> scribe: dgarijo
(Scribe set to Daniel Garijo)
16:14:09 <satya> @pgroth, +1
Satya Sahoo: @pgroth, +1 ←
16:14:10 <dgarijo> pgroth: that would be a good finish product that we can look as a whole
Paul Groth: that would be a good finish product that we can look as a whole ←
16:14:27 <dgarijo> .... which is what we are aiming for.
.... which is what we are aiming for. ←
16:14:29 <tlebo> bye!
Timothy Lebo: bye! ←
16:14:31 <dgarijo> ... goodbye!
... goodbye! ←
16:14:34 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo
Zakim IRC Bot: -Satya_Sahoo ←
16:14:36 <Zakim> -??P2
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P2 ←
16:14:36 <Zakim> -??P31
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P31 ←
16:14:36 <Zakim> -pgroth
Zakim IRC Bot: -pgroth ←
16:14:36 <Zakim> - +44.131.467.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: - +44.131.467.aabb ←
16:14:39 <Zakim> -Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro ←
16:14:41 <Zakim> -tlebo
Zakim IRC Bot: -tlebo ←
16:14:42 <Zakim> -MacTed
Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed ←
16:14:44 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes
Zakim IRC Bot: -Curt_Tilmes ←
16:14:46 <Zakim> -jun
Zakim IRC Bot: -jun ←
16:14:48 <Zakim> -TomDN
Zakim IRC Bot: -TomDN ←
16:14:51 <Zakim> -GK
Zakim IRC Bot: -GK ←
16:14:55 <Zakim> -dgarijo
Zakim IRC Bot: -dgarijo ←
16:15:00 <pgroth> rrsagent, set log public
Paul Groth: rrsagent, set log public ←
16:15:10 <pgroth> rrsagent, draft minutes
Paul Groth: rrsagent, draft minutes ←
16:15:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-prov-minutes.html pgroth
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-prov-minutes.html pgroth ←
16:15:14 <pgroth> trackbot, end telcon
Paul Groth: trackbot, end telcon ←
16:17:21 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees ←
16:17:21 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +49.674.180.aaaa, TomDN, Curt_Tilmes, tlebo, Satya_Sahoo, dgarijo?, Sandro, jun, kai?, GK, +44.131.467.aabb, MacTed, pgroth
Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been +49.674.180.aaaa, TomDN, Curt_Tilmes, tlebo, Satya_Sahoo, dgarijo?, Sandro, jun, kai?, GK, +44.131.467.aabb, MacTed, pgroth ←
16:17:24 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes ←
16:17:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-prov-minutes.html trackbot
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-prov-minutes.html trackbot ←
16:17:25 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye ←
16:17:25 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see no action items ←
Formatted by CommonScribe