edit

Provenance Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 15 March 2012

Agenda
http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.03.15
Seen
Curt Tilmes, Daniel Garijo, Graham Klyne, James Cheney, Jun Zhao, Kai Eckert, Khalid Belhajjame, Luc Moreau, Olaf Hartig, Paolo Missier, Paul Groth, Sam Coppens, Simon Miles, Ted Thibodeau, Timothy Lebo
Regrets
Paul Groth
Chair
Luc Moreau
Scribe
Simon Miles
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions
  1. the minutes of 2012-03-08 teleconference link
  2. to rename wasStartedBy(activity,activity) in wasStartedByActivity(activity,activity) link
  3. to formulate start and end of activities independently of responsibility and agents. Hence, start and end of activity would no longer be a form of activity association. Instead of an agent, an optional entity trigger would be allowed. link
Topics
  1. Admin

    Minutes of last week's teleconference were approved.

  2. f2F3

    The third face to face meeting will take place on 22-23 June in Santa Barbara. James Frew will be the host of the meeting. Logistics details will be made available shortly.

  3. PROV-O

    Tim reported back on progress on the prov-o html document. The style, the automatically generated part, the manual generated part have been identified. The team will write up the various sections. Please respond to request to review changes and close issues you have raised.

  4. prov-primer

    Simon will aim to get a revised version of the primer by the end of the month. He is relying on Stian and Paolo, to ensure the primer is synchronized with prov-o and prov-dm, respectively.

  5. prov-dm

    The results of the votes that took place during the week were presented. There was support for two proposals. While there was no opposition for the first proposal, support was not strong enough. Editors will go back to the drawing board. Paolo explained all the edits that took place during the week, tackling issues related to presentation (component based approach rather than core/common distinction), quotation, original source, prov-n, collections, optional plan. They are about to be integrated in the Editor's Draft.

  6. Free form discussion on destruction/expiry

    We had a free discussion around proposal 1. Two salient points were made: the proposal lacks a compelling example of this notion of 'destruction', and it lacks an explanation of why it matters from a provenance viewpoint. Macted suggested an example of a painting burned in a fire (destruction event) and reappearing later at an auction. The editors will revisit the proposal in the light of these suggestions.

14:46:04 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/15-prov-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/15-prov-irc

14:46:06 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

14:46:08 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be

14:46:08 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

14:46:09 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:46:09 <trackbot> Date: 15 March 2012
14:46:09 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV

Luc Moreau: Zakim, this will be PROV

14:46:09 <Zakim> ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 14 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 14 minutes

14:46:27 <Luc> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.03.15
14:47:24 <Luc> Chair: Luc Moreau
14:47:29 <Luc> rrsagent, make logs public

Luc Moreau: rrsagent, make logs public

14:56:52 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

(No events recorded for 9 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

14:56:52 <Zakim> +Luc

Zakim IRC Bot: +Luc

14:57:09 <Luc> Regrets: Paul Groth
14:57:15 <Zakim> +??P15

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P15

14:57:17 <Zakim> -??P15

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P15

14:57:17 <Zakim> +??P15

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P15

14:57:19 <Luc> zakim, who is on the call?

Luc Moreau: zakim, who is on the call?

14:57:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see Luc, ??P15

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Luc, ??P15

14:57:32 <Paolo> zakim, ??P15 is me

Paolo Missier: zakim, ??P15 is me

14:57:32 <Zakim> +Paolo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Paolo; got it

14:58:16 <Zakim> +??P31

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P31

14:58:54 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

14:59:04 <Luc> zakim, who is on the call?

Luc Moreau: zakim, who is on the call?

14:59:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see Luc, Paolo, ??P31

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Luc, Paolo, ??P31

14:59:10 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

14:59:36 <Zakim> +??P42

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P42

14:59:36 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software

14:59:42 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

14:59:44 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

14:59:45 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

14:59:45 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvDMWorkingDraft5

Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvDMWorkingDraft5

14:59:50 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

15:00:04 <dgarijo> Zakim, [IPcaller] is probably me

Daniel Garijo: Zakim, [IPcaller] is probably me

15:00:15 <Zakim> +Curt_Tilmes

Zakim IRC Bot: +Curt_Tilmes

15:00:15 <Luc> zakim, who is on the call?

Luc Moreau: zakim, who is on the call?

15:00:22 <Zakim> +dgarijo?; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +dgarijo?; got it

15:00:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see Luc, Paolo, ??P31, dgarijo?, ??P42, MacTed (muted), Curt_Tilmes

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Luc, Paolo, ??P31, dgarijo?, ??P42, MacTed (muted), Curt_Tilmes

15:00:42 <smiles> I can scribe

Simon Miles: I can scribe

15:00:45 <dgarijo> I h ave to leave very early today, sorry :(

Daniel Garijo: I h ave to leave very early today, sorry :(

15:00:50 <smiles> Scribe: smiles

(Scribe set to Simon Miles)

15:01:00 <dgarijo> @smiles: thanks

Daniel Garijo: @smiles: thanks

15:01:04 <Luc> topic: Admin

1. Admin

Summary: Minutes of last week's teleconference were approved.

<Luc>Summary: Minutes of last week's teleconference were approved.
15:01:33 <Zakim> + +1.315.723.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.315.723.aaaa

15:01:41 <tlebo> zakim, I am aaaa

Timothy Lebo: zakim, I am aaaa

15:01:41 <Zakim> +tlebo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +tlebo; got it

15:01:50 <smiles> Luc: any other business?

Luc Moreau: any other business?

15:01:58 <Zakim> + +49.302.093.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +49.302.093.aabb

15:02:00 <Zakim> + +1.443.708.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.443.708.aacc

15:02:17 <smiles> dgarijo: Pending reviews on ontology, please send

Daniel Garijo: Pending reviews on ontology, please send

15:02:22 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-03-08

Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-03-08

15:02:34 <dgarijo> +1

Daniel Garijo: +1

15:02:36 <smiles> Luc: Express support for minutes

Luc Moreau: Express support for minutes

15:02:43 <Curt> +1

Curt Tilmes: +1

15:02:45 <Paolo> +1

Paolo Missier: +1

15:02:46 <tlebo> +1

Timothy Lebo: +1

15:02:53 <smiles> +1

+1

15:02:54 <Zakim> +??P55

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P55

15:03:05 <jun> zakim, ??P55 is me

Jun Zhao: zakim, ??P55 is me

15:03:06 <Zakim> +jun; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jun; got it

15:03:20 <Luc> ACCEPTED: the minutes of 2012-03-08 teleconference

RESOLVED: the minutes of 2012-03-08 teleconference

15:03:28 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/open

Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/open

15:03:35 <Zakim> + +329331aadd

Zakim IRC Bot: + +329331aadd

15:03:46 <Zakim> +??P57

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P57

15:03:52 <jcheney> zakim, ??P57 is me

James Cheney: zakim, ??P57 is me

15:03:52 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jcheney; got it

15:03:54 <smiles> Luc: Action on Paul to produce revised version of PAQ, sends his regrets for today

Luc Moreau: Action on Paul to produce revised version of PAQ, sends his regrets for today

15:04:04 <smiles> Graham?

Graham?

15:04:12 <SamCoppens> zakim, +329331aadd is me

Sam Coppens: zakim, +329331aadd is me

15:04:12 <Zakim> +SamCoppens; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +SamCoppens; got it

15:04:22 <GK> I'm not dialled in yet.  No progress on action AFAIK.

Graham Klyne: I'm not dialled in yet. No progress on action AFAIK.

15:04:41 <smiles> Action to Tim to ensure WD4 comments addressed

Action to Tim to ensure WD4 comments addressed

15:04:41 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - to

Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - to

15:04:46 <smiles> Tim: Yes, completed

Timothy Lebo: Yes, completed

15:05:11 <Zakim> - +49.302.093.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: - +49.302.093.aabb

15:05:21 <smiles> Luc: Reminder, next week same as this, tc is one hour earlier

Luc Moreau: Reminder, next week same as this, tc is one hour earlier

15:05:30 <smiles> ... Also need scribes for future tcs

... Also need scribes for future tcs

15:05:37 <Luc> Topic: f2F3

2. f2F3

Summary: The third face to face meeting will take place on 22-23 June in Santa Barbara. James Frew will be the host of the meeting. Logistics details will be made available shortly.

<Luc>Summary: The third face to face meeting will take place on 22-23 June in Santa Barbara. James Frew will be the host of the meeting. Logistics details will be made available shortly.
15:05:49 <Zakim> +??P60

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P60

15:05:57 <GK> zakim, ??p60 is me

Graham Klyne: zakim, ??p60 is me

15:05:57 <Zakim> +GK; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +GK; got it

15:06:06 <smiles> Luc: Good support in poll, so will proceed with 22-23 June in Santa Barbara

Luc Moreau: Good support in poll, so will proceed with 22-23 June in Santa Barbara

15:06:21 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:06:27 <smiles> ... preceded by IPAW, James Frew will provide hotel suggestions soon

... preceded by IPAW, James Frew will provide hotel suggestions soon

15:06:51 <dgarijo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/products/3

Daniel Garijo: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/products/3

15:06:52 <GK> (Unfortunately, the date clashes with an important family commitment)

Graham Klyne: (Unfortunately, the date clashes with an important family commitment)

15:06:41 <Luc> Topic: PROV-O

3. PROV-O

Summary: Tim reported back on progress on the prov-o html document. The style, the automatically generated part, the manual generated part have been identified. The team will write up the various sections. Please respond to request to review changes and close issues you have raised.

<Luc>Summary: Tim reported back on progress on the prov-o html document. The style, the automatically generated part, the manual generated part have been identified. The team will write up the various sections. Please respond to request to review changes and close issues you have raised.
15:06:56 <tlebo> http://aquarius.tw.rpi.edu/prov-wg/prov-o

Timothy Lebo: http://aquarius.tw.rpi.edu/prov-wg/prov-o

15:07:13 <smiles> tlebo: PROV-O completed iterating on HTML document

Timothy Lebo: PROV-O completed iterating on HTML document

15:07:24 <Zakim> + +49.302.093.aaee

Zakim IRC Bot: + +49.302.093.aaee

15:07:37 <smiles> ... now automatically generating cross-reference reflecting Jun/Khalid's proposed structure

... now automatically generating cross-reference reflecting Jun/Khalid's proposed structure

15:07:44 <olaf> zakim, aaee is me

Olaf Hartig: zakim, aaee is me

15:07:46 <Zakim> +olaf; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +olaf; got it

15:07:52 <SamCoppens> zakim, mute me

Sam Coppens: zakim, mute me

15:07:52 <Zakim> SamCoppens should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: SamCoppens should now be muted

15:07:55 <smiles> ... request any feedback from the WG, please raise issues directly using tracker

... request any feedback from the WG, please raise issues directly using tracker

15:08:18 <smiles> ... Now preparing to assign people to write narrative for individual sections

... Now preparing to assign people to write narrative for individual sections

15:08:55 <smiles> tlebo: Daniel done great reviewing of sections, please help bring issues to closure where replied to

Timothy Lebo: Daniel done great reviewing of sections, please help bring issues to closure where replied to

15:09:13 <smiles> Luc: Been tremendous work on ontology and document

Luc Moreau: Been tremendous work on ontology and document

15:09:22 <GK> It looks v good to me.  Well done!

Graham Klyne: It looks v good to me. Well done!

15:09:27 <smiles> ... Is there a stable ontology?

... Is there a stable ontology?

15:09:54 <smiles> tlebo: Needs to be in sync with DM WD4, so may be couple of changes to ontology (and automatically HTML)

Timothy Lebo: Needs to be in sync with DM WD4, so may be couple of changes to ontology (and automatically HTML)

15:10:05 <Zakim> +??P69

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P69

15:10:09 <smiles> ... currently using PROVRDF to track mapping to DM

... currently using PROVRDF to track mapping to DM

15:10:11 <dgarijo> @All: please check out  http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/products/3. There are 8 or 9 issues pending review, so if you have raised them please see if they can be closed.

Daniel Garijo: @All: please check out http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/products/3. There are 8 or 9 issues pending review, so if you have raised them please see if they can be closed.

15:10:22 <smiles> Luc: HTML also looks great

Luc Moreau: HTML also looks great

15:10:24 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:10:28 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, ??P69 is me

Khalid Belhajjame: zakim, ??P69 is me

15:10:28 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +khalidbelhajjame; got it

15:10:44 <GK> Does anyone think we can get it to REC with the title unchanged?

Graham Klyne: Does anyone think we can get it to REC with the title unchanged?

15:10:56 <Luc> ;-)

Luc Moreau: ;-)

15:10:59 <tlebo> @GK ;-)

Timothy Lebo: @GK ;-)

15:11:13 <smiles> dgarijo: Link pasted above issues against ontology, so if you raised issues please check whether they can be closed

Daniel Garijo: Link pasted above issues against ontology, so if you raised issues please check whether they can be closed

15:11:27 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

15:11:37 <smiles> Luc: Suggest for next telecon, have summary of issues open and who raised them

Luc Moreau: Suggest for next telecon, have summary of issues open and who raised them

15:11:47 <smiles> dgarijo: Have already sent individual emails on issues

Daniel Garijo: Have already sent individual emails on issues

15:11:48 <jun> @tlebo, is there a link to check all issues related to provo.html?

Jun Zhao: @tlebo, is there a link to check all issues related to provo.html?

15:11:58 <smiles> Luc: Also mail list to add pressure

Luc Moreau: Also mail list to add pressure

15:12:16 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:12:16 <tlebo> @jun, yes. http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/products/10

Timothy Lebo: @jun, yes. http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/products/10

15:12:23 <jun> @tlebo, thx! :)

Jun Zhao: @tlebo, thx! :)

15:12:33 <tlebo> "PROV-O HTML" in pull down on tracker.

Timothy Lebo: "PROV-O HTML" in pull down on tracker.

15:12:34 <smiles> dgarijo: Have also divided issues to those on ontology, those on HTML, those on mapping

Daniel Garijo: Have also divided issues to those on ontology, those on HTML, those on mapping

15:12:41 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:12:54 <Luc> topic: prov-primer

4. prov-primer

Summary: Simon will aim to get a revised version of the primer by the end of the month. He is relying on Stian and Paolo, to ensure the primer is synchronized with prov-o and prov-dm, respectively.

<luc>Summary: Simon will aim to get a revised version of the primer by the end of the month. He is relying on Stian and Paolo, to ensure the primer is synchronized with prov-o and prov-dm, respectively.
15:14:04 <Paolo> oops that may have fallen through, sorry about that

Paolo Missier: oops that may have fallen through, sorry about that

15:15:43 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:16:30 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:16:43 <smiles> Luc: aim to have drafts on all docs for end of month, including primer

Luc Moreau: aim to have drafts on all docs for end of month, including primer

15:16:53 <Luc> topic: prov-dm

5. prov-dm

Summary: The results of the votes that took place during the week were presented. There was support for two proposals. While there was no opposition for the first proposal, support was not strong enough. Editors will go back to the drawing board. Paolo explained all the edits that took place during the week, tackling issues related to presentation (component based approach rather than core/common distinction), quotation, original source, prov-n, collections, optional plan. They are about to be integrated in the Editor's Draft.

<Luc>Summary: The results of the votes that took place during the week were presented. There was support for two proposals. While there was no opposition for the first proposal, support was not strong enough. Editors will go back to the drawing board.  Paolo explained all the edits that took place during the week, tackling issues related to presentation (component based approach rather than core/common distinction), quotation, original source, prov-n, collections, optional plan. They are about to be integrated in the Editor's Draft.
15:17:04 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

15:17:04 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted

15:17:10 <Luc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2012Mar/0230.html

Luc Moreau: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2012Mar/0230.html

15:17:13 <MacTed> q+

Ted Thibodeau: q+

15:17:16 <smiles> smiles: Will prepare for end of the month, with input from Paolo on inconsistencies with DM, from Stian on inconsistencies with PROVO

Simon Miles: Will prepare for end of the month, with input from Paolo on inconsistencies with DM, from Stian on inconsistencies with PROVO

15:19:09 <tlebo> +1 @macted, we should stick to eggs and unchewed gum.

Timothy Lebo: +1 @macted, we should stick to eggs and unchewed gum.

15:19:33 <smiles> MacTed: express examples in terms of real world things, as expiry and change over time unclear with current examples

Ted Thibodeau: express examples in terms of real world things, as expiry and change over time unclear with current examples

15:19:57 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:19:57 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

15:20:14 <smiles> Luc: three proposals circulated, second and third had support

Luc Moreau: three proposals circulated, second and third had support

15:20:56 <smiles> ... first did not have consensus, cannot be adopted, so will try to change and discuss

... first did not have consensus, cannot be adopted, so will try to change and discuss

15:21:11 <GK> q+ to say I think a concrete example for wanting prop 1 would help

Graham Klyne: q+ to say I think a concrete example for wanting prop 1 would help

15:21:21 <smiles> ... can incorporate second, third proposal in editors draft, can raise issues against in tracker in usual way

... can incorporate second, third proposal in editors draft, can raise issues against in tracker in usual way

15:21:27 <Luc> ack mac

Luc Moreau: ack mac

15:21:46 <smiles> GK: First proposal needs motivating example

Graham Klyne: First proposal needs motivating example

15:21:57 <GK> ack gk

Graham Klyne: ack gk

15:21:57 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to say I think a concrete example for wanting prop 1 would help

Zakim IRC Bot: GK, you wanted to say I think a concrete example for wanting prop 1 would help

15:22:21 <dgarijo> +q

Daniel Garijo: +q

15:22:21 <GK> I'm hearing, but see chat if you can't hear me

Graham Klyne: I'm hearing, but see chat if you can't hear me

15:22:32 <Luc> we can't hear you

Luc Moreau: we can't hear you

15:22:44 <smiles> GK: <some random sounds>

Graham Klyne: <some random sounds>

15:22:50 <GK> Yes

Graham Klyne: Yes

15:23:03 <GK> Well, that was it -- a concrete example that shows...

Graham Klyne: Well, that was it -- a concrete example that shows...

15:23:14 <GK> ... why it's useful to have entioty expiration.

Graham Klyne: ... why it's useful to have entioty expiration.

15:23:28 <smiles> Luc: Are examples in proposal not satisfactory?

Luc Moreau: Are examples in proposal not satisfactory?

15:23:31 <GK> I didn't find them compelling ... need to rechack.

Graham Klyne: I didn't find them compelling ... need to rechack.

15:23:51 <Luc> ACCEPTED: to rename wasStartedBy(activity,activity) in wasStartedByActivity(activity,activity)

RESOLVED: to rename wasStartedBy(activity,activity) in wasStartedByActivity(activity,activity)

15:23:54 <Zakim> -GK

Zakim IRC Bot: -GK

15:24:06 <Luc> AcceptED: to formulate start and end of activities independently of responsibility and agents. Hence, start and end of activity would no longer be a form of activity association. Instead of an agent, an optional entity trigger would be allowed.

RESOLVED: to formulate start and end of activities independently of responsibility and agents. Hence, start and end of activity would no longer be a form of activity association. Instead of an agent, an optional entity trigger would be allowed.

15:24:16 <Zakim> +??P28

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P28

15:24:20 <dgarijo> I had a question about proposal 2 :(

Daniel Garijo: I had a question about proposal 2 :(

15:24:28 <GK> zakim, ??p28 is me

Graham Klyne: zakim, ??p28 is me

15:24:28 <Zakim> +GK; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +GK; got it

15:24:39 <Paolo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvDMWorkingDraft5

Paolo Missier: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvDMWorkingDraft5

15:25:08 <dgarijo> well, the subject has changed..

Daniel Garijo: well, the subject has changed..

15:25:11 <dgarijo> -q

Daniel Garijo: -q

15:25:17 <smiles> Paolo: Work in progress on WD5, some of to do list are being tracked

Paolo Missier: Work in progress on WD5, some of to do list are being tracked

15:25:18 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:25:39 <Paolo> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/wd5-prov-dm-components.html

Paolo Missier: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/wd5-prov-dm-components.html

15:26:12 <smiles> ... As seen on agenda, component structure now excludes core/component divide

... As seen on agenda, component structure now excludes core/component divide

15:26:41 <Paolo> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/wd5-prov-dm-quote.html

Paolo Missier: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/wd5-prov-dm-quote.html

15:26:47 <smiles> ... New structure reflects discussion on list, please look at it and raise objections

... New structure reflects discussion on list, please look at it and raise objections

15:26:59 <Zakim> +??P62

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P62

15:27:10 <GK> To follow up my previous comment, the examples given explain what might trigger an expiration assertion, but do not explain why this is useful or needed for provenance (i.e. assertions about things that have happened - if the provenance is asserted, then presumably referenced entities existed at that time - if they disappeared later, is that really something we need to know?)

Graham Klyne: To follow up my previous comment, the examples given explain what might trigger an expiration assertion, but do not explain why this is useful or needed for provenance (i.e. assertions about things that have happened - if the provenance is asserted, then presumably referenced entities existed at that time - if they disappeared later, is that really something we need to know?)

15:27:15 <kai> zakim, ??P62 is me.

Kai Eckert: zakim, ??P62 is me.

15:27:15 <Zakim> +kai; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +kai; got it

15:27:23 <smiles> ... Quotation / orginal source controversy - could not see where distinction is

... Quotation / orginal source controversy - could not see where distinction is

15:27:31 <Paolo> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/wd5-prov-dm-components.html#term-value

Paolo Missier: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/wd5-prov-dm-components.html#term-value

15:27:32 <dgarijo> I really have to leave. Apologies...

Daniel Garijo: I really have to leave. Apologies...

15:27:36 <dgarijo> bye!

Daniel Garijo: bye!

15:27:45 <Zakim> -??P42

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P42

15:27:46 <kai> @dgarijo: i take over :-)

Kai Eckert: @dgarijo: i take over :-)

15:28:18 <smiles> ... Literals are now expressed as syntactic construct, all we say about values is that they have a type: qualified name, XSD type

... Literals are now expressed as syntactic construct, all we say about values is that they have a type: qualified name, XSD type

15:28:45 <Paolo> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/wd5-prov-dm-collections.html

Paolo Missier: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/wd5-prov-dm-collections.html

15:29:34 <smiles> ... Collections is work in progress, tried to accommodate open issues and agreed with Stian what to include, final iterations with proposed version in above link

... Collections is work in progress, tried to accommodate open issues and agreed with Stian what to include, final iterations with proposed version in above link

15:30:13 <smiles> ... primitive relations regarding insertion, deletion; data types for collections; additional relations to simplify expressions with multiple key-value pairs

... primitive relations regarding insertion, deletion; data types for collections; additional relations to simplify expressions with multiple key-value pairs

15:30:37 <Paolo> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/wd5-prov-dm-plan.html

Paolo Missier: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/wd5-prov-dm-plan.html

15:31:05 <smiles> ... Agents in association: proposed new formulation for wasAssociatedWith; plan to open for discussion; if no controversy will be in next draft

... Agents in association: proposed new formulation for wasAssociatedWith; plan to open for discussion; if no controversy will be in next draft

15:31:13 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:31:53 <smiles> Luc: For all edits, discussed issues with people, will now include in WD and notify WG when done

Luc Moreau: For all edits, discussed issues with people, will now include in WD and notify WG when done

15:32:20 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:32:25 <smiles> ... still to address feedback on WD4 to incorporate in document, go through remaining issues; revision by end of the month

... still to address feedback on WD4 to incorporate in document, go through remaining issues; revision by end of the month

15:32:28 <smiles> q+

q+

15:33:00 <smiles> smiles: What is controversial, under development?

Simon Miles: What is controversial, under development?

15:33:23 <smiles> Luc: Once collections issues addressed, only presentational issues remain, so stable model

Luc Moreau: Once collections issues addressed, only presentational issues remain, so stable model

15:33:40 <smiles> ... Proposal 1 above is still controversial: expiry

... Proposal 1 above is still controversial: expiry

15:33:45 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:33:50 <Luc> ack sm

Luc Moreau: ack sm

15:34:08 <smiles> Paolo: Agreed, everything before expiry proposal, everything settling down

Paolo Missier: Agreed, everything before expiry proposal, everything settling down

15:34:35 <smiles> ... Not everything in collections draft is uncontroversial but getting there

... Not everything in collections draft is uncontroversial but getting there

15:34:42 <khalidbelhajjame> @smiles,  do you intend to speak about collections in the primer?

Khalid Belhajjame: @smiles, do you intend to speak about collections in the primer?

15:35:08 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:35:27 <smiles> ... New pieces in BNF for optional arguments, impact on PROVN examples

... New pieces in BNF for optional arguments, impact on PROVN examples

15:35:33 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:37:22 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:37:28 <smiles> Paolo: should be pedagogical text on collections in primer

Paolo Missier: should be pedagogical text on collections in primer

15:37:47 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

<Luc>Topic: Free form discussion on destruction/expiry

6. Free form discussion on destruction/expiry

Summary: We had a free discussion around proposal 1. Two salient points were made: the proposal lacks a compelling example of this notion of 'destruction', and it lacks an explanation of why it matters from a provenance viewpoint. Macted suggested an example of a painting burned in a fire (destruction event) and reappearing later at an auction. The editors will revisit the proposal in the light of these suggestions.

<Luc>Summary: We had a free discussion around proposal 1. Two salient points were made: the proposal lacks a compelling example of this notion of 'destruction', and it lacks an explanation of why it matters from a provenance viewpoint. Macted suggested an example of a painting burned in a fire (destruction event) and reappearing later at an auction.  The editors will revisit the proposal in the light of these suggestions.
15:38:14 <smiles> Luc: Finished agenda, but useful to discuss expiry

Luc Moreau: Finished agenda, but useful to discuss expiry

15:38:33 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

15:38:33 <Zakim> MacTed was not muted, MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed was not muted, MacTed

15:39:23 <GK> I can hear OK, but not speak

Graham Klyne: I can hear OK, but not speak

15:39:34 <GK> To follow up my previous comment, the examples given explain what might trigger an expiration assertion, but do not explain why this is useful or needed for provenance (i.e. assertions about things that have happened - if the provenance is asserted, then presumably referenced entities existed at that time - if they disappeared later, is that really something we need to know?)

Graham Klyne: To follow up my previous comment, the examples given explain what might trigger an expiration assertion, but do not explain why this is useful or needed for provenance (i.e. assertions about things that have happened - if the provenance is asserted, then presumably referenced entities existed at that time - if they disappeared later, is that really something we need to know?)

15:40:01 <khalidbelhajjame> Is the objection against the example or the notion of expiration?

Khalid Belhajjame: Is the objection against the example or the notion of expiration?

15:40:18 <smiles> MacTed: An entity may be referred to after being destroyed

Ted Thibodeau: An entity may be referred to after being destroyed

15:40:36 <Paolo> q?

Paolo Missier: q?

15:40:41 <smiles> ... what do we mean here?

... what do we mean here?

15:40:43 <tlebo> unbroken eggs and unchewed gum!

Timothy Lebo: unbroken eggs and unchewed gum!

15:40:45 <Curt> "invalid" = no longer can be 'used' by an activity

Curt Tilmes: "invalid" = no longer can be 'used' by an activity

15:40:47 <GK> The notion.  In my case, I'm not seeing why it's useful for provenance.  Use-case?

Graham Klyne: The notion. In my case, I'm not seeing why it's useful for provenance. Use-case?

15:41:04 <GK> I'm not opposing it, just not supporting it.

Graham Klyne: I'm not opposing it, just not supporting it.

15:41:09 <GK> Why do we care?

Graham Klyne: Why do we care?

15:41:09 <Paolo> q+

Paolo Missier: q+

15:41:35 <jcheney> q+

James Cheney: q+

15:42:22 <smiles> ... Table example (logs to table, table broken up and burnt); in contrast, resolution on web gets latest revision, so not really identifying one entity

... Table example (logs to table, table broken up and burnt); in contrast, resolution on web gets latest revision, so not really identifying one entity

15:42:50 <tlebo> Let the web people deal with the web problems, not the provenance people. "not able to be used again" is a useful notion (eggs and gum)

Timothy Lebo: Let the web people deal with the web problems, not the provenance people. "not able to be used again" is a useful notion (eggs and gum)

15:43:01 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:43:03 <Luc> ack pao

Luc Moreau: ack pao

15:43:28 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's noisy?

15:43:38 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [IPcaller] (55%), Paolo (85%), MacTed (24%)

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [IPcaller] (55%), Paolo (85%), MacTed (24%)

15:43:47 <MacTed> Zakim, mute [IPcaller]

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute [IPcaller]

15:43:47 <Zakim> [IPcaller] should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: [IPcaller] should now be muted

15:44:13 <MacTed> I don't know who [IPcaller] is ... but hopefully they can unmute themselves when they figure it out

Ted Thibodeau: I don't know who [IPcaller] is ... but hopefully they can unmute themselves when they figure it out

15:45:17 <smiles> Paolo: Want to demarcate lifetime of entity, existence to non-existence (becomes another entity), but can refer to forever

Paolo Missier: Want to demarcate lifetime of entity, existence to non-existence (becomes another entity), but can refer to forever

15:45:17 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:45:20 <Curt> The examples *don't* discuss things that are 'destroyed', just things that are no longer accessible/available.

Curt Tilmes: The examples *don't* discuss things that are 'destroyed', just things that are no longer accessible/available.

15:45:27 <tlebo> having the symmetric to "Generated" seems to be rather nice.

Timothy Lebo: having the symmetric to "Generated" seems to be rather nice.

15:45:29 <GK> So what does the entity URI identify when the entity ceases to exist?

Graham Klyne: So what does the entity URI identify when the entity ceases to exist?

15:45:29 <smiles> ... Nothing to do with real thing getting destroyed

... Nothing to do with real thing getting destroyed

15:46:25 <smiles> jcheney: Important to distinguish entity which is information valid during a time interval from thing described by that information which can be created, destroyed

James Cheney: Important to distinguish entity which is information valid during a time interval from thing described by that information which can be created, destroyed

15:47:02 <smiles> ... start and end of both are valid to talk about

... start and end of both are valid to talk about

15:47:22 <khalidbelhajjame> The entity is invalidated not when the thing is distroyed, but when it the entity is no longer reflect the thing it represents.

Khalid Belhajjame: The entity is invalidated not when the thing is distroyed, but when it the entity is no longer reflect the thing it represents.

15:47:29 <smiles> MacTed: An entity is a thing which is described, not the description

Ted Thibodeau: An entity is a thing which is described, not the description

15:47:29 <Paolo> +

Paolo Missier: +

15:47:39 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:47:40 <Paolo> q+

Paolo Missier: q+

15:47:53 <smiles> Luc: Description holds or not

Luc Moreau: Description holds or not

15:47:58 <GK> If there's any meaning here, I think its to do with validity of statements *about* the entity.

Graham Klyne: If there's any meaning here, I think its to do with validity of statements *about* the entity.

15:49:22 <smiles> jcheney: Lack of entity expiry in semantics not difficult in itself, but awkward if want to say "table stopped being in room on Wednesday"

James Cheney: Lack of entity expiry in semantics not difficult in itself, but awkward if want to say "table stopped being in room on Wednesday"

15:49:28 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:49:28 <Curt> If the characterization of an entity includes the attribute that it be available through a URL, then when that URL no longer refers to that content, then entity is 'destroyed'.

Curt Tilmes: If the characterization of an entity includes the attribute that it be available through a URL, then when that URL no longer refers to that content, then entity is 'destroyed'.

15:49:41 <Paolo> q?

Paolo Missier: q?

15:49:51 <jcheney> q-

James Cheney: q-

15:49:59 <smiles> MacTed: Entity is the thing not the desciption of the thing

Ted Thibodeau: Entity is the thing not the desciption of the thing

15:50:03 <GK> I suppose it might be seen as implying a contextual constraint on statements like "entity dc:creator Foo"?

Graham Klyne: I suppose it might be seen as implying a contextual constraint on statements like "entity dc:creator Foo"?

15:50:33 <smiles> Luc: Agree with GK that it is about validity of statements about the entity

Luc Moreau: Agree with GK that it is about validity of statements about the entity

15:50:39 <Curt> an entity is a set of attributes that characterize something  When one of those attributes changes (any of them), you are talking about a different entity.

Curt Tilmes: an entity is a set of attributes that characterize something When one of those attributes changes (any of them), you are talking about a different entity.

15:51:02 <Paolo> I am going by this definition: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/FormalSemanticsStrawman#Entities

Paolo Missier: I am going by this definition: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/FormalSemanticsStrawman#Entities

15:51:13 <tlebo> @macted, yes.

Timothy Lebo: @macted, yes.

15:51:13 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:51:50 <Luc> ack paol

Luc Moreau: ack paol

15:51:51 <GK> If we think of provenance in terms of entities interacting with processes, then the points at which provenance applies are exactly when those interactions occur?

Graham Klyne: If we think of provenance in terms of entities interacting with processes, then the points at which provenance applies are exactly when those interactions occur?

15:52:06 <smiles> Paolo: Should follow definitions in strawman formal semantics

Paolo Missier: Should follow definitions in strawman formal semantics

15:52:46 <smiles> ... If no compelling reason to have concept, then more trouble than its worth

... If no compelling reason to have concept, then more trouble than its worth

15:53:31 <GK> ... or in spans delimited by those interactions?

Graham Klyne: ... or in spans delimited by those interactions?

15:53:38 <jcheney> Current version is at http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/FormalSemanticsWD3#Entities

James Cheney: Current version is at http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/FormalSemanticsWD3#Entities

15:54:04 <smiles> MacTed: An entity has internal integrity solidified by attributes which are immutable, depending on timeslice

Ted Thibodeau: An entity has internal integrity solidified by attributes which are immutable, depending on timeslice

15:54:37 <smiles> ... e.g. a table is an entity which is a timeslice of the wood comprising it

... e.g. a table is an entity which is a timeslice of the wood comprising it

15:55:01 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:55:04 <GK> I *would* see some point if there were an action that "expired" an entity.

Graham Klyne: I *would* see some point if there were an action that "expired" an entity.

15:55:05 <khalidbelhajjame> q+

Khalid Belhajjame: q+

15:55:09 <jcheney> @MacTed, please raise issues against semantics if what is there is unclear or could be improved

James Cheney: @MacTed, please raise issues against semantics if what is there is unclear or could be improved

15:55:20 <smiles> Luc: Do not want unbounded discussion, so need prepration, proposals

Luc Moreau: Do not want unbounded discussion, so need prepration, proposals

15:55:35 <GK> The problem is I don't oppose this idea, just don't support it :)

Graham Klyne: The problem is I don't oppose this idea, just don't support it :)

15:55:43 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:56:13 <smiles> Luc: Can MacTed, others formulate notion of end of lifetime in your terms?

Luc Moreau: Can MacTed, others formulate notion of end of lifetime in your terms?

15:56:26 <khalidbelhajjame> -q

Khalid Belhajjame: -q

15:56:32 <Paolo> q+

Paolo Missier: q+

15:57:00 <GK> I think the onus is on those who think the concept is useful to come up with compelling examples.

Graham Klyne: I think the onus is on those who think the concept is useful to come up with compelling examples.

15:57:20 <GK> They didn't compel me.

Graham Klyne: They didn't compel me.

15:57:29 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:57:29 <khalidbelhajjame> +q

Khalid Belhajjame: +q

15:57:30 <Curt> I agree - they are not compelling

Curt Tilmes: I agree - they are not compelling

15:57:41 <Luc> ack kh

Luc Moreau: ack kh

15:57:54 <GK> ... the examples given explain what might trigger an expiration assertion, but do not explain why this is useful or needed for provenance (i.e. assertions about things that have happened - if the provenance is asserted, then presumably referenced entities existed at that time - if they disappeared later, is that really something we need to know?)

Graham Klyne: ... the examples given explain what might trigger an expiration assertion, but do not explain why this is useful or needed for provenance (i.e. assertions about things that have happened - if the provenance is asserted, then presumably referenced entities existed at that time - if they disappeared later, is that really something we need to know?)

15:58:21 <smiles> khalid: Do we need notion of destroy/expire in any application?

Khalid Belhajjame: Do we need notion of destroy/expire in any application?

15:58:40 <MacTed> if a Great Master's painting (original canvas) is burned in a museum fire, this is important knowledge when it apparently surfaces later at auction...

Ted Thibodeau: if a Great Master's painting (original canvas) is burned in a museum fire, this is important knowledge when it apparently surfaces later at auction...

15:58:48 <Curt> I've got to go, but I'll think about this some more...

Curt Tilmes: I've got to go, but I'll think about this some more...

15:58:52 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:58:54 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes

Zakim IRC Bot: -Curt_Tilmes

15:58:56 <GK> I see here there's a weak consensus for leaving expiration as proposed.  Nobody opposed it, just lots of people didn't care.

Graham Klyne: I see here there's a weak consensus for leaving expiration as proposed. Nobody opposed it, just lots of people didn't care.

15:58:58 <Zakim> -olaf

Zakim IRC Bot: -olaf

15:59:01 <MacTed> (concrete, real world, not rotten eggs...)

Ted Thibodeau: (concrete, real world, not rotten eggs...)

15:59:40 <smiles> Paolo: Will come up with a couple more examples, seems odd to express only one end of timeslice

Paolo Missier: Will come up with a couple more examples, seems odd to express only one end of timeslice

16:00:03 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:00:11 <Luc> ack paolo

Luc Moreau: ack paolo

16:01:00 <GK> @paolo I mentioned earlier that if there were a specific activity-related event that causes an entity toi be invalidated, that would make sense.

Graham Klyne: @paolo I mentioned earlier that if there were a specific activity-related event that causes an entity toi be invalidated, that would make sense.

16:01:08 <smiles> Luc: MacTed please share definition by email

Luc Moreau: MacTed please share definition by email

16:01:32 <GK> @Luc - burned poainting - se eprevious comment :)

Graham Klyne: @Luc - burned poainting - se eprevious comment :)

16:01:36 <smiles> ... GK, MacTed's example is interesting one to motivate

... GK, MacTed's example is interesting one to motivate

16:01:43 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:01:52 <GK> Bye.

Graham Klyne: Bye.

16:01:53 <Zakim> -tlebo

Zakim IRC Bot: -tlebo

16:01:54 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame

Zakim IRC Bot: -khalidbelhajjame

16:01:55 <Zakim> -jun

Zakim IRC Bot: -jun

16:01:56 <Zakim> -SamCoppens

Zakim IRC Bot: -SamCoppens

16:01:56 <Zakim> -kai

Zakim IRC Bot: -kai

16:01:59 <Zakim> - +1.443.708.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.443.708.aacc

16:02:00 <Zakim> -MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed

16:02:01 <Zakim> -jcheney

Zakim IRC Bot: -jcheney

16:02:02 <Zakim> -GK

Zakim IRC Bot: -GK

16:02:08 <Zakim> -Luc

Zakim IRC Bot: -Luc

16:02:10 <Zakim> -Paolo

Zakim IRC Bot: -Paolo

16:02:25 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller]

16:02:34 <Luc> rrsagent, set log public

Luc Moreau: rrsagent, set log public

16:02:37 <Luc> rrsagent, draft minutes

Luc Moreau: rrsagent, draft minutes

16:02:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/15-prov-minutes.html Luc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/15-prov-minutes.html Luc

16:02:42 <Luc> trackbot, end telcon

Luc Moreau: trackbot, end telcon

16:02:42 <trackbot> Sorry, Luc, I don't understand 'trackbot, end telcon '. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help

Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, Luc, I don't understand 'trackbot, end telcon '. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help

16:03:15 <smiles> trackbot, end telecon

trackbot, end telecon

16:03:15 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees

16:03:15 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Luc, Paolo, MacTed, Curt_Tilmes, dgarijo?, +1.315.723.aaaa, tlebo, +49.302.093.aabb, +1.443.708.aacc, jun, jcheney, SamCoppens, GK,

Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been Luc, Paolo, MacTed, Curt_Tilmes, dgarijo?, +1.315.723.aaaa, tlebo, +49.302.093.aabb, +1.443.708.aacc, jun, jcheney, SamCoppens, GK,

16:03:19 <Zakim> ... +49.302.093.aaee, olaf, khalidbelhajjame, [IPcaller], kai

Zakim IRC Bot: ... +49.302.093.aaee, olaf, khalidbelhajjame, [IPcaller], kai

16:03:23 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes

16:03:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/15-prov-minutes.html trackbot

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/15-prov-minutes.html trackbot

16:03:24 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye

16:03:24 <RRSAgent> I see no action items

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see no action items



Formatted by CommonScribe