Minutes of last week's teleconference were approved.
The third face to face meeting will take place on 22-23 June in Santa Barbara. James Frew will be the host of the meeting. Logistics details will be made available shortly.
Tim reported back on progress on the prov-o html document. The style, the automatically generated part, the manual generated part have been identified. The team will write up the various sections. Please respond to request to review changes and close issues you have raised.
Simon will aim to get a revised version of the primer by the end of the month. He is relying on Stian and Paolo, to ensure the primer is synchronized with prov-o and prov-dm, respectively.
The results of the votes that took place during the week were presented. There was support for two proposals. While there was no opposition for the first proposal, support was not strong enough. Editors will go back to the drawing board. Paolo explained all the edits that took place during the week, tackling issues related to presentation (component based approach rather than core/common distinction), quotation, original source, prov-n, collections, optional plan. They are about to be integrated in the Editor's Draft.
Free form discussion on destruction/expiry
We had a free discussion around proposal 1. Two salient points were made: the proposal lacks a compelling example of this notion of 'destruction', and it lacks an explanation of why it matters from a provenance viewpoint. Macted suggested an example of a painting burned in a fire (destruction event) and reappearing later at an auction. The editors will revisit the proposal in the light of these suggestions.
14:46:04 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/15-prov-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/15-prov-irc ←
14:46:06 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
14:46:08 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be ←
14:46:08 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot ←
14:46:09 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:46:09 <trackbot> Date: 15 March 2012
14:46:09 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV
Luc Moreau: Zakim, this will be PROV ←
14:46:09 <Zakim> ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 14 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 14 minutes ←
14:46:27 <Luc> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.03.15
14:47:24 <Luc> Chair: Luc Moreau
14:47:29 <Luc> rrsagent, make logs public
Luc Moreau: rrsagent, make logs public ←
14:56:52 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
(No events recorded for 9 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started ←
14:56:52 <Zakim> +Luc
Zakim IRC Bot: +Luc ←
14:57:09 <Luc> Regrets: Paul Groth
14:57:15 <Zakim> +??P15
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P15 ←
14:57:17 <Zakim> -??P15
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P15 ←
14:57:17 <Zakim> +??P15
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P15 ←
14:57:19 <Luc> zakim, who is on the call?
Luc Moreau: zakim, who is on the call? ←
14:57:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see Luc, ??P15
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Luc, ??P15 ←
14:57:32 <Paolo> zakim, ??P15 is me
Paolo Missier: zakim, ??P15 is me ←
14:57:32 <Zakim> +Paolo; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Paolo; got it ←
14:58:16 <Zakim> +??P31
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P31 ←
14:58:54 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
14:59:04 <Luc> zakim, who is on the call?
Luc Moreau: zakim, who is on the call? ←
14:59:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see Luc, Paolo, ??P31
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Luc, Paolo, ??P31 ←
14:59:10 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
14:59:36 <Zakim> +??P42
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P42 ←
14:59:36 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software ←
14:59:42 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me ←
14:59:44 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it ←
14:59:45 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
14:59:45 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvDMWorkingDraft5
Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvDMWorkingDraft5 ←
14:59:50 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
15:00:04 <dgarijo> Zakim, [IPcaller] is probably me
Daniel Garijo: Zakim, [IPcaller] is probably me ←
15:00:15 <Zakim> +Curt_Tilmes
Zakim IRC Bot: +Curt_Tilmes ←
15:00:15 <Luc> zakim, who is on the call?
Luc Moreau: zakim, who is on the call? ←
15:00:22 <Zakim> +dgarijo?; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +dgarijo?; got it ←
15:00:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see Luc, Paolo, ??P31, dgarijo?, ??P42, MacTed (muted), Curt_Tilmes
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Luc, Paolo, ??P31, dgarijo?, ??P42, MacTed (muted), Curt_Tilmes ←
15:00:42 <smiles> I can scribe
Simon Miles: I can scribe ←
15:00:45 <dgarijo> I h ave to leave very early today, sorry :(
Daniel Garijo: I h ave to leave very early today, sorry :( ←
15:00:50 <smiles> Scribe: smiles
(Scribe set to Simon Miles)
15:01:00 <dgarijo> @smiles: thanks
Daniel Garijo: @smiles: thanks ←
15:01:04 <Luc> topic: Admin
Summary: Minutes of last week's teleconference were approved.
<Luc>Summary: Minutes of last week's teleconference were approved.
15:01:33 <Zakim> + +1.315.723.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.315.723.aaaa ←
15:01:41 <tlebo> zakim, I am aaaa
Timothy Lebo: zakim, I am aaaa ←
15:01:41 <Zakim> +tlebo; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +tlebo; got it ←
15:01:50 <smiles> Luc: any other business?
Luc Moreau: any other business? ←
15:01:58 <Zakim> + +49.302.093.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: + +49.302.093.aabb ←
15:02:00 <Zakim> + +1.443.708.aacc
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.443.708.aacc ←
15:02:17 <smiles> dgarijo: Pending reviews on ontology, please send
Daniel Garijo: Pending reviews on ontology, please send ←
15:02:22 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-03-08
Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-03-08 ←
15:02:34 <dgarijo> +1
Daniel Garijo: +1 ←
15:02:36 <smiles> Luc: Express support for minutes
Luc Moreau: Express support for minutes ←
15:02:43 <Curt> +1
Curt Tilmes: +1 ←
15:02:45 <Paolo> +1
Paolo Missier: +1 ←
15:02:46 <tlebo> +1
Timothy Lebo: +1 ←
15:02:53 <smiles> +1
+1 ←
15:02:54 <Zakim> +??P55
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P55 ←
15:03:05 <jun> zakim, ??P55 is me
Jun Zhao: zakim, ??P55 is me ←
15:03:06 <Zakim> +jun; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +jun; got it ←
15:03:20 <Luc> ACCEPTED: the minutes of 2012-03-08 teleconference
RESOLVED: the minutes of 2012-03-08 teleconference ←
15:03:28 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/open
Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/open ←
15:03:35 <Zakim> + +329331aadd
Zakim IRC Bot: + +329331aadd ←
15:03:46 <Zakim> +??P57
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P57 ←
15:03:52 <jcheney> zakim, ??P57 is me
James Cheney: zakim, ??P57 is me ←
15:03:52 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +jcheney; got it ←
15:03:54 <smiles> Luc: Action on Paul to produce revised version of PAQ, sends his regrets for today
Luc Moreau: Action on Paul to produce revised version of PAQ, sends his regrets for today ←
15:04:04 <smiles> Graham?
Graham? ←
15:04:12 <SamCoppens> zakim, +329331aadd is me
Sam Coppens: zakim, +329331aadd is me ←
15:04:12 <Zakim> +SamCoppens; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +SamCoppens; got it ←
15:04:22 <GK> I'm not dialled in yet. No progress on action AFAIK.
Graham Klyne: I'm not dialled in yet. No progress on action AFAIK. ←
15:04:41 <smiles> Action to Tim to ensure WD4 comments addressed
Action to Tim to ensure WD4 comments addressed ←
15:04:41 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - to
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - to ←
15:04:46 <smiles> Tim: Yes, completed
Timothy Lebo: Yes, completed ←
15:05:11 <Zakim> - +49.302.093.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: - +49.302.093.aabb ←
15:05:21 <smiles> Luc: Reminder, next week same as this, tc is one hour earlier
Luc Moreau: Reminder, next week same as this, tc is one hour earlier ←
15:05:30 <smiles> ... Also need scribes for future tcs
... Also need scribes for future tcs ←
15:05:37 <Luc> Topic: f2F3
Summary: The third face to face meeting will take place on 22-23 June in Santa Barbara. James Frew will be the host of the meeting. Logistics details will be made available shortly.
<Luc>Summary: The third face to face meeting will take place on 22-23 June in Santa Barbara. James Frew will be the host of the meeting. Logistics details will be made available shortly.
15:05:49 <Zakim> +??P60
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P60 ←
15:05:57 <GK> zakim, ??p60 is me
Graham Klyne: zakim, ??p60 is me ←
15:05:57 <Zakim> +GK; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +GK; got it ←
15:06:06 <smiles> Luc: Good support in poll, so will proceed with 22-23 June in Santa Barbara
Luc Moreau: Good support in poll, so will proceed with 22-23 June in Santa Barbara ←
15:06:21 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:06:27 <smiles> ... preceded by IPAW, James Frew will provide hotel suggestions soon
... preceded by IPAW, James Frew will provide hotel suggestions soon ←
15:06:51 <dgarijo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/products/3
Daniel Garijo: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/products/3 ←
15:06:52 <GK> (Unfortunately, the date clashes with an important family commitment)
Graham Klyne: (Unfortunately, the date clashes with an important family commitment) ←
15:06:41 <Luc> Topic: PROV-O
Summary: Tim reported back on progress on the prov-o html document. The style, the automatically generated part, the manual generated part have been identified. The team will write up the various sections. Please respond to request to review changes and close issues you have raised.
<Luc>Summary: Tim reported back on progress on the prov-o html document. The style, the automatically generated part, the manual generated part have been identified. The team will write up the various sections. Please respond to request to review changes and close issues you have raised.
15:06:56 <tlebo> http://aquarius.tw.rpi.edu/prov-wg/prov-o
Timothy Lebo: http://aquarius.tw.rpi.edu/prov-wg/prov-o ←
15:07:13 <smiles> tlebo: PROV-O completed iterating on HTML document
Timothy Lebo: PROV-O completed iterating on HTML document ←
15:07:24 <Zakim> + +49.302.093.aaee
Zakim IRC Bot: + +49.302.093.aaee ←
15:07:37 <smiles> ... now automatically generating cross-reference reflecting Jun/Khalid's proposed structure
... now automatically generating cross-reference reflecting Jun/Khalid's proposed structure ←
15:07:44 <olaf> zakim, aaee is me
Olaf Hartig: zakim, aaee is me ←
15:07:46 <Zakim> +olaf; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +olaf; got it ←
15:07:52 <SamCoppens> zakim, mute me
Sam Coppens: zakim, mute me ←
15:07:52 <Zakim> SamCoppens should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: SamCoppens should now be muted ←
15:07:55 <smiles> ... request any feedback from the WG, please raise issues directly using tracker
... request any feedback from the WG, please raise issues directly using tracker ←
15:08:18 <smiles> ... Now preparing to assign people to write narrative for individual sections
... Now preparing to assign people to write narrative for individual sections ←
15:08:55 <smiles> tlebo: Daniel done great reviewing of sections, please help bring issues to closure where replied to
Timothy Lebo: Daniel done great reviewing of sections, please help bring issues to closure where replied to ←
15:09:13 <smiles> Luc: Been tremendous work on ontology and document
Luc Moreau: Been tremendous work on ontology and document ←
15:09:22 <GK> It looks v good to me. Well done!
Graham Klyne: It looks v good to me. Well done! ←
15:09:27 <smiles> ... Is there a stable ontology?
... Is there a stable ontology? ←
15:09:54 <smiles> tlebo: Needs to be in sync with DM WD4, so may be couple of changes to ontology (and automatically HTML)
Timothy Lebo: Needs to be in sync with DM WD4, so may be couple of changes to ontology (and automatically HTML) ←
15:10:05 <Zakim> +??P69
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P69 ←
15:10:09 <smiles> ... currently using PROVRDF to track mapping to DM
... currently using PROVRDF to track mapping to DM ←
15:10:11 <dgarijo> @All: please check out http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/products/3. There are 8 or 9 issues pending review, so if you have raised them please see if they can be closed.
Daniel Garijo: @All: please check out http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/products/3. There are 8 or 9 issues pending review, so if you have raised them please see if they can be closed. ←
15:10:22 <smiles> Luc: HTML also looks great
Luc Moreau: HTML also looks great ←
15:10:24 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:10:28 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, ??P69 is me
Khalid Belhajjame: zakim, ??P69 is me ←
15:10:28 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +khalidbelhajjame; got it ←
15:10:44 <GK> Does anyone think we can get it to REC with the title unchanged?
Graham Klyne: Does anyone think we can get it to REC with the title unchanged? ←
15:10:56 <Luc> ;-)
Luc Moreau: ;-) ←
15:10:59 <tlebo> @GK ;-)
Timothy Lebo: @GK ;-) ←
15:11:13 <smiles> dgarijo: Link pasted above issues against ontology, so if you raised issues please check whether they can be closed
Daniel Garijo: Link pasted above issues against ontology, so if you raised issues please check whether they can be closed ←
15:11:27 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
15:11:37 <smiles> Luc: Suggest for next telecon, have summary of issues open and who raised them
Luc Moreau: Suggest for next telecon, have summary of issues open and who raised them ←
15:11:47 <smiles> dgarijo: Have already sent individual emails on issues
Daniel Garijo: Have already sent individual emails on issues ←
15:11:48 <jun> @tlebo, is there a link to check all issues related to provo.html?
Jun Zhao: @tlebo, is there a link to check all issues related to provo.html? ←
15:11:58 <smiles> Luc: Also mail list to add pressure
Luc Moreau: Also mail list to add pressure ←
15:12:16 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:12:16 <tlebo> @jun, yes. http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/products/10
Timothy Lebo: @jun, yes. http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/products/10 ←
15:12:23 <jun> @tlebo, thx! :)
15:12:33 <tlebo> "PROV-O HTML" in pull down on tracker.
Timothy Lebo: "PROV-O HTML" in pull down on tracker. ←
15:12:34 <smiles> dgarijo: Have also divided issues to those on ontology, those on HTML, those on mapping
Daniel Garijo: Have also divided issues to those on ontology, those on HTML, those on mapping ←
15:12:41 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:12:54 <Luc> topic: prov-primer
Summary: Simon will aim to get a revised version of the primer by the end of the month. He is relying on Stian and Paolo, to ensure the primer is synchronized with prov-o and prov-dm, respectively.
<luc>Summary: Simon will aim to get a revised version of the primer by the end of the month. He is relying on Stian and Paolo, to ensure the primer is synchronized with prov-o and prov-dm, respectively.
15:14:04 <Paolo> oops that may have fallen through, sorry about that
Paolo Missier: oops that may have fallen through, sorry about that ←
15:15:43 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:16:30 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:16:43 <smiles> Luc: aim to have drafts on all docs for end of month, including primer
Luc Moreau: aim to have drafts on all docs for end of month, including primer ←
15:16:53 <Luc> topic: prov-dm
Summary: The results of the votes that took place during the week were presented. There was support for two proposals. While there was no opposition for the first proposal, support was not strong enough. Editors will go back to the drawing board. Paolo explained all the edits that took place during the week, tackling issues related to presentation (component based approach rather than core/common distinction), quotation, original source, prov-n, collections, optional plan. They are about to be integrated in the Editor's Draft.
<Luc>Summary: The results of the votes that took place during the week were presented. There was support for two proposals. While there was no opposition for the first proposal, support was not strong enough. Editors will go back to the drawing board. Paolo explained all the edits that took place during the week, tackling issues related to presentation (component based approach rather than core/common distinction), quotation, original source, prov-n, collections, optional plan. They are about to be integrated in the Editor's Draft.
15:17:04 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
15:17:04 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted ←
15:17:10 <Luc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2012Mar/0230.html
Luc Moreau: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2012Mar/0230.html ←
15:17:13 <MacTed> q+
Ted Thibodeau: q+ ←
15:17:16 <smiles> smiles: Will prepare for end of the month, with input from Paolo on inconsistencies with DM, from Stian on inconsistencies with PROVO
Simon Miles: Will prepare for end of the month, with input from Paolo on inconsistencies with DM, from Stian on inconsistencies with PROVO ←
15:19:09 <tlebo> +1 @macted, we should stick to eggs and unchewed gum.
Timothy Lebo: +1 @macted, we should stick to eggs and unchewed gum. ←
15:19:33 <smiles> MacTed: express examples in terms of real world things, as expiry and change over time unclear with current examples
Ted Thibodeau: express examples in terms of real world things, as expiry and change over time unclear with current examples ←
15:19:57 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
15:19:57 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
15:20:14 <smiles> Luc: three proposals circulated, second and third had support
Luc Moreau: three proposals circulated, second and third had support ←
15:20:56 <smiles> ... first did not have consensus, cannot be adopted, so will try to change and discuss
... first did not have consensus, cannot be adopted, so will try to change and discuss ←
15:21:11 <GK> q+ to say I think a concrete example for wanting prop 1 would help
Graham Klyne: q+ to say I think a concrete example for wanting prop 1 would help ←
15:21:21 <smiles> ... can incorporate second, third proposal in editors draft, can raise issues against in tracker in usual way
... can incorporate second, third proposal in editors draft, can raise issues against in tracker in usual way ←
15:21:27 <Luc> ack mac
Luc Moreau: ack mac ←
15:21:46 <smiles> GK: First proposal needs motivating example
Graham Klyne: First proposal needs motivating example ←
15:21:57 <GK> ack gk
Graham Klyne: ack gk ←
15:21:57 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to say I think a concrete example for wanting prop 1 would help
Zakim IRC Bot: GK, you wanted to say I think a concrete example for wanting prop 1 would help ←
15:22:21 <dgarijo> +q
Daniel Garijo: +q ←
15:22:21 <GK> I'm hearing, but see chat if you can't hear me
Graham Klyne: I'm hearing, but see chat if you can't hear me ←
15:22:32 <Luc> we can't hear you
Luc Moreau: we can't hear you ←
15:22:44 <smiles> GK: <some random sounds>
Graham Klyne: <some random sounds> ←
15:22:50 <GK> Yes
Graham Klyne: Yes ←
15:23:03 <GK> Well, that was it -- a concrete example that shows...
Graham Klyne: Well, that was it -- a concrete example that shows... ←
15:23:14 <GK> ... why it's useful to have entioty expiration.
Graham Klyne: ... why it's useful to have entioty expiration. ←
15:23:28 <smiles> Luc: Are examples in proposal not satisfactory?
Luc Moreau: Are examples in proposal not satisfactory? ←
15:23:31 <GK> I didn't find them compelling ... need to rechack.
Graham Klyne: I didn't find them compelling ... need to rechack. ←
15:23:51 <Luc> ACCEPTED: to rename wasStartedBy(activity,activity) in wasStartedByActivity(activity,activity)
RESOLVED: to rename wasStartedBy(activity,activity) in wasStartedByActivity(activity,activity) ←
15:23:54 <Zakim> -GK
Zakim IRC Bot: -GK ←
15:24:06 <Luc> AcceptED: to formulate start and end of activities independently of responsibility and agents. Hence, start and end of activity would no longer be a form of activity association. Instead of an agent, an optional entity trigger would be allowed.
RESOLVED: to formulate start and end of activities independently of responsibility and agents. Hence, start and end of activity would no longer be a form of activity association. Instead of an agent, an optional entity trigger would be allowed. ←
15:24:16 <Zakim> +??P28
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P28 ←
15:24:20 <dgarijo> I had a question about proposal 2 :(
Daniel Garijo: I had a question about proposal 2 :( ←
15:24:28 <GK> zakim, ??p28 is me
Graham Klyne: zakim, ??p28 is me ←
15:24:28 <Zakim> +GK; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +GK; got it ←
15:24:39 <Paolo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvDMWorkingDraft5
Paolo Missier: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvDMWorkingDraft5 ←
15:25:08 <dgarijo> well, the subject has changed..
Daniel Garijo: well, the subject has changed.. ←
15:25:11 <dgarijo> -q
Daniel Garijo: -q ←
15:25:17 <smiles> Paolo: Work in progress on WD5, some of to do list are being tracked
Paolo Missier: Work in progress on WD5, some of to do list are being tracked ←
15:25:18 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:25:39 <Paolo> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/wd5-prov-dm-components.html
Paolo Missier: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/wd5-prov-dm-components.html ←
15:26:12 <smiles> ... As seen on agenda, component structure now excludes core/component divide
... As seen on agenda, component structure now excludes core/component divide ←
15:26:41 <Paolo> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/wd5-prov-dm-quote.html
Paolo Missier: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/wd5-prov-dm-quote.html ←
15:26:47 <smiles> ... New structure reflects discussion on list, please look at it and raise objections
... New structure reflects discussion on list, please look at it and raise objections ←
15:26:59 <Zakim> +??P62
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P62 ←
15:27:10 <GK> To follow up my previous comment, the examples given explain what might trigger an expiration assertion, but do not explain why this is useful or needed for provenance (i.e. assertions about things that have happened - if the provenance is asserted, then presumably referenced entities existed at that time - if they disappeared later, is that really something we need to know?)
Graham Klyne: To follow up my previous comment, the examples given explain what might trigger an expiration assertion, but do not explain why this is useful or needed for provenance (i.e. assertions about things that have happened - if the provenance is asserted, then presumably referenced entities existed at that time - if they disappeared later, is that really something we need to know?) ←
15:27:15 <kai> zakim, ??P62 is me.
Kai Eckert: zakim, ??P62 is me. ←
15:27:15 <Zakim> +kai; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +kai; got it ←
15:27:23 <smiles> ... Quotation / orginal source controversy - could not see where distinction is
... Quotation / orginal source controversy - could not see where distinction is ←
15:27:31 <Paolo> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/wd5-prov-dm-components.html#term-value
Paolo Missier: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/wd5-prov-dm-components.html#term-value ←
15:27:32 <dgarijo> I really have to leave. Apologies...
Daniel Garijo: I really have to leave. Apologies... ←
15:27:36 <dgarijo> bye!
Daniel Garijo: bye! ←
15:27:45 <Zakim> -??P42
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P42 ←
15:27:46 <kai> @dgarijo: i take over :-)
Kai Eckert: @dgarijo: i take over :-) ←
15:28:18 <smiles> ... Literals are now expressed as syntactic construct, all we say about values is that they have a type: qualified name, XSD type
... Literals are now expressed as syntactic construct, all we say about values is that they have a type: qualified name, XSD type ←
15:28:45 <Paolo> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/wd5-prov-dm-collections.html
Paolo Missier: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/wd5-prov-dm-collections.html ←
15:29:34 <smiles> ... Collections is work in progress, tried to accommodate open issues and agreed with Stian what to include, final iterations with proposed version in above link
... Collections is work in progress, tried to accommodate open issues and agreed with Stian what to include, final iterations with proposed version in above link ←
15:30:13 <smiles> ... primitive relations regarding insertion, deletion; data types for collections; additional relations to simplify expressions with multiple key-value pairs
... primitive relations regarding insertion, deletion; data types for collections; additional relations to simplify expressions with multiple key-value pairs ←
15:30:37 <Paolo> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/wd5-prov-dm-plan.html
Paolo Missier: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/wd5-prov-dm-plan.html ←
15:31:05 <smiles> ... Agents in association: proposed new formulation for wasAssociatedWith; plan to open for discussion; if no controversy will be in next draft
... Agents in association: proposed new formulation for wasAssociatedWith; plan to open for discussion; if no controversy will be in next draft ←
15:31:13 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:31:53 <smiles> Luc: For all edits, discussed issues with people, will now include in WD and notify WG when done
Luc Moreau: For all edits, discussed issues with people, will now include in WD and notify WG when done ←
15:32:20 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:32:25 <smiles> ... still to address feedback on WD4 to incorporate in document, go through remaining issues; revision by end of the month
... still to address feedback on WD4 to incorporate in document, go through remaining issues; revision by end of the month ←
15:32:28 <smiles> q+
q+ ←
15:33:00 <smiles> smiles: What is controversial, under development?
Simon Miles: What is controversial, under development? ←
15:33:23 <smiles> Luc: Once collections issues addressed, only presentational issues remain, so stable model
Luc Moreau: Once collections issues addressed, only presentational issues remain, so stable model ←
15:33:40 <smiles> ... Proposal 1 above is still controversial: expiry
... Proposal 1 above is still controversial: expiry ←
15:33:45 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:33:50 <Luc> ack sm
Luc Moreau: ack sm ←
15:34:08 <smiles> Paolo: Agreed, everything before expiry proposal, everything settling down
Paolo Missier: Agreed, everything before expiry proposal, everything settling down ←
15:34:35 <smiles> ... Not everything in collections draft is uncontroversial but getting there
... Not everything in collections draft is uncontroversial but getting there ←
15:34:42 <khalidbelhajjame> @smiles, do you intend to speak about collections in the primer?
Khalid Belhajjame: @smiles, do you intend to speak about collections in the primer? ←
15:35:08 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:35:27 <smiles> ... New pieces in BNF for optional arguments, impact on PROVN examples
... New pieces in BNF for optional arguments, impact on PROVN examples ←
15:35:33 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:37:22 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:37:28 <smiles> Paolo: should be pedagogical text on collections in primer
Paolo Missier: should be pedagogical text on collections in primer ←
15:37:47 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
<Luc>Topic: Free form discussion on destruction/expiry
Summary: We had a free discussion around proposal 1. Two salient points were made: the proposal lacks a compelling example of this notion of 'destruction', and it lacks an explanation of why it matters from a provenance viewpoint. Macted suggested an example of a painting burned in a fire (destruction event) and reappearing later at an auction. The editors will revisit the proposal in the light of these suggestions.
<Luc>Summary: We had a free discussion around proposal 1. Two salient points were made: the proposal lacks a compelling example of this notion of 'destruction', and it lacks an explanation of why it matters from a provenance viewpoint. Macted suggested an example of a painting burned in a fire (destruction event) and reappearing later at an auction. The editors will revisit the proposal in the light of these suggestions.
15:38:14 <smiles> Luc: Finished agenda, but useful to discuss expiry
Luc Moreau: Finished agenda, but useful to discuss expiry ←
15:38:33 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
15:38:33 <Zakim> MacTed was not muted, MacTed
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed was not muted, MacTed ←
15:39:23 <GK> I can hear OK, but not speak
Graham Klyne: I can hear OK, but not speak ←
15:39:34 <GK> To follow up my previous comment, the examples given explain what might trigger an expiration assertion, but do not explain why this is useful or needed for provenance (i.e. assertions about things that have happened - if the provenance is asserted, then presumably referenced entities existed at that time - if they disappeared later, is that really something we need to know?)
Graham Klyne: To follow up my previous comment, the examples given explain what might trigger an expiration assertion, but do not explain why this is useful or needed for provenance (i.e. assertions about things that have happened - if the provenance is asserted, then presumably referenced entities existed at that time - if they disappeared later, is that really something we need to know?) ←
15:40:01 <khalidbelhajjame> Is the objection against the example or the notion of expiration?
Khalid Belhajjame: Is the objection against the example or the notion of expiration? ←
15:40:18 <smiles> MacTed: An entity may be referred to after being destroyed
Ted Thibodeau: An entity may be referred to after being destroyed ←
15:40:36 <Paolo> q?
Paolo Missier: q? ←
15:40:41 <smiles> ... what do we mean here?
... what do we mean here? ←
15:40:43 <tlebo> unbroken eggs and unchewed gum!
Timothy Lebo: unbroken eggs and unchewed gum! ←
15:40:45 <Curt> "invalid" = no longer can be 'used' by an activity
Curt Tilmes: "invalid" = no longer can be 'used' by an activity ←
15:40:47 <GK> The notion. In my case, I'm not seeing why it's useful for provenance. Use-case?
Graham Klyne: The notion. In my case, I'm not seeing why it's useful for provenance. Use-case? ←
15:41:04 <GK> I'm not opposing it, just not supporting it.
Graham Klyne: I'm not opposing it, just not supporting it. ←
15:41:09 <GK> Why do we care?
Graham Klyne: Why do we care? ←
15:41:09 <Paolo> q+
Paolo Missier: q+ ←
15:41:35 <jcheney> q+
James Cheney: q+ ←
15:42:22 <smiles> ... Table example (logs to table, table broken up and burnt); in contrast, resolution on web gets latest revision, so not really identifying one entity
... Table example (logs to table, table broken up and burnt); in contrast, resolution on web gets latest revision, so not really identifying one entity ←
15:42:50 <tlebo> Let the web people deal with the web problems, not the provenance people. "not able to be used again" is a useful notion (eggs and gum)
Timothy Lebo: Let the web people deal with the web problems, not the provenance people. "not able to be used again" is a useful notion (eggs and gum) ←
15:43:01 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:43:03 <Luc> ack pao
Luc Moreau: ack pao ←
15:43:28 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's noisy? ←
15:43:38 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [IPcaller] (55%), Paolo (85%), MacTed (24%)
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [IPcaller] (55%), Paolo (85%), MacTed (24%) ←
15:43:47 <MacTed> Zakim, mute [IPcaller]
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute [IPcaller] ←
15:43:47 <Zakim> [IPcaller] should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: [IPcaller] should now be muted ←
15:44:13 <MacTed> I don't know who [IPcaller] is ... but hopefully they can unmute themselves when they figure it out
Ted Thibodeau: I don't know who [IPcaller] is ... but hopefully they can unmute themselves when they figure it out ←
15:45:17 <smiles> Paolo: Want to demarcate lifetime of entity, existence to non-existence (becomes another entity), but can refer to forever
Paolo Missier: Want to demarcate lifetime of entity, existence to non-existence (becomes another entity), but can refer to forever ←
15:45:17 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:45:20 <Curt> The examples *don't* discuss things that are 'destroyed', just things that are no longer accessible/available.
Curt Tilmes: The examples *don't* discuss things that are 'destroyed', just things that are no longer accessible/available. ←
15:45:27 <tlebo> having the symmetric to "Generated" seems to be rather nice.
Timothy Lebo: having the symmetric to "Generated" seems to be rather nice. ←
15:45:29 <GK> So what does the entity URI identify when the entity ceases to exist?
Graham Klyne: So what does the entity URI identify when the entity ceases to exist? ←
15:45:29 <smiles> ... Nothing to do with real thing getting destroyed
... Nothing to do with real thing getting destroyed ←
15:46:25 <smiles> jcheney: Important to distinguish entity which is information valid during a time interval from thing described by that information which can be created, destroyed
James Cheney: Important to distinguish entity which is information valid during a time interval from thing described by that information which can be created, destroyed ←
15:47:02 <smiles> ... start and end of both are valid to talk about
... start and end of both are valid to talk about ←
15:47:22 <khalidbelhajjame> The entity is invalidated not when the thing is distroyed, but when it the entity is no longer reflect the thing it represents.
Khalid Belhajjame: The entity is invalidated not when the thing is distroyed, but when it the entity is no longer reflect the thing it represents. ←
15:47:29 <smiles> MacTed: An entity is a thing which is described, not the description
Ted Thibodeau: An entity is a thing which is described, not the description ←
15:47:29 <Paolo> +
Paolo Missier: + ←
15:47:39 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:47:40 <Paolo> q+
Paolo Missier: q+ ←
15:47:53 <smiles> Luc: Description holds or not
Luc Moreau: Description holds or not ←
15:47:58 <GK> If there's any meaning here, I think its to do with validity of statements *about* the entity.
Graham Klyne: If there's any meaning here, I think its to do with validity of statements *about* the entity. ←
15:49:22 <smiles> jcheney: Lack of entity expiry in semantics not difficult in itself, but awkward if want to say "table stopped being in room on Wednesday"
James Cheney: Lack of entity expiry in semantics not difficult in itself, but awkward if want to say "table stopped being in room on Wednesday" ←
15:49:28 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:49:28 <Curt> If the characterization of an entity includes the attribute that it be available through a URL, then when that URL no longer refers to that content, then entity is 'destroyed'.
Curt Tilmes: If the characterization of an entity includes the attribute that it be available through a URL, then when that URL no longer refers to that content, then entity is 'destroyed'. ←
15:49:41 <Paolo> q?
Paolo Missier: q? ←
15:49:51 <jcheney> q-
James Cheney: q- ←
15:49:59 <smiles> MacTed: Entity is the thing not the desciption of the thing
Ted Thibodeau: Entity is the thing not the desciption of the thing ←
15:50:03 <GK> I suppose it might be seen as implying a contextual constraint on statements like "entity dc:creator Foo"?
Graham Klyne: I suppose it might be seen as implying a contextual constraint on statements like "entity dc:creator Foo"? ←
15:50:33 <smiles> Luc: Agree with GK that it is about validity of statements about the entity
Luc Moreau: Agree with GK that it is about validity of statements about the entity ←
15:50:39 <Curt> an entity is a set of attributes that characterize something When one of those attributes changes (any of them), you are talking about a different entity.
Curt Tilmes: an entity is a set of attributes that characterize something When one of those attributes changes (any of them), you are talking about a different entity. ←
15:51:02 <Paolo> I am going by this definition: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/FormalSemanticsStrawman#Entities
Paolo Missier: I am going by this definition: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/FormalSemanticsStrawman#Entities ←
15:51:13 <tlebo> @macted, yes.
Timothy Lebo: @macted, yes. ←
15:51:13 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:51:50 <Luc> ack paol
Luc Moreau: ack paol ←
15:51:51 <GK> If we think of provenance in terms of entities interacting with processes, then the points at which provenance applies are exactly when those interactions occur?
Graham Klyne: If we think of provenance in terms of entities interacting with processes, then the points at which provenance applies are exactly when those interactions occur? ←
15:52:06 <smiles> Paolo: Should follow definitions in strawman formal semantics
Paolo Missier: Should follow definitions in strawman formal semantics ←
15:52:46 <smiles> ... If no compelling reason to have concept, then more trouble than its worth
... If no compelling reason to have concept, then more trouble than its worth ←
15:53:31 <GK> ... or in spans delimited by those interactions?
Graham Klyne: ... or in spans delimited by those interactions? ←
15:53:38 <jcheney> Current version is at http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/FormalSemanticsWD3#Entities
James Cheney: Current version is at http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/FormalSemanticsWD3#Entities ←
15:54:04 <smiles> MacTed: An entity has internal integrity solidified by attributes which are immutable, depending on timeslice
Ted Thibodeau: An entity has internal integrity solidified by attributes which are immutable, depending on timeslice ←
15:54:37 <smiles> ... e.g. a table is an entity which is a timeslice of the wood comprising it
... e.g. a table is an entity which is a timeslice of the wood comprising it ←
15:55:01 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:55:04 <GK> I *would* see some point if there were an action that "expired" an entity.
Graham Klyne: I *would* see some point if there were an action that "expired" an entity. ←
15:55:05 <khalidbelhajjame> q+
Khalid Belhajjame: q+ ←
15:55:09 <jcheney> @MacTed, please raise issues against semantics if what is there is unclear or could be improved
James Cheney: @MacTed, please raise issues against semantics if what is there is unclear or could be improved ←
15:55:20 <smiles> Luc: Do not want unbounded discussion, so need prepration, proposals
Luc Moreau: Do not want unbounded discussion, so need prepration, proposals ←
15:55:35 <GK> The problem is I don't oppose this idea, just don't support it :)
Graham Klyne: The problem is I don't oppose this idea, just don't support it :) ←
15:55:43 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:56:13 <smiles> Luc: Can MacTed, others formulate notion of end of lifetime in your terms?
Luc Moreau: Can MacTed, others formulate notion of end of lifetime in your terms? ←
15:56:26 <khalidbelhajjame> -q
Khalid Belhajjame: -q ←
15:56:32 <Paolo> q+
Paolo Missier: q+ ←
15:57:00 <GK> I think the onus is on those who think the concept is useful to come up with compelling examples.
Graham Klyne: I think the onus is on those who think the concept is useful to come up with compelling examples. ←
15:57:20 <GK> They didn't compel me.
Graham Klyne: They didn't compel me. ←
15:57:29 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:57:29 <khalidbelhajjame> +q
Khalid Belhajjame: +q ←
15:57:30 <Curt> I agree - they are not compelling
Curt Tilmes: I agree - they are not compelling ←
15:57:41 <Luc> ack kh
Luc Moreau: ack kh ←
15:57:54 <GK> ... the examples given explain what might trigger an expiration assertion, but do not explain why this is useful or needed for provenance (i.e. assertions about things that have happened - if the provenance is asserted, then presumably referenced entities existed at that time - if they disappeared later, is that really something we need to know?)
Graham Klyne: ... the examples given explain what might trigger an expiration assertion, but do not explain why this is useful or needed for provenance (i.e. assertions about things that have happened - if the provenance is asserted, then presumably referenced entities existed at that time - if they disappeared later, is that really something we need to know?) ←
15:58:21 <smiles> khalid: Do we need notion of destroy/expire in any application?
Khalid Belhajjame: Do we need notion of destroy/expire in any application? ←
15:58:40 <MacTed> if a Great Master's painting (original canvas) is burned in a museum fire, this is important knowledge when it apparently surfaces later at auction...
Ted Thibodeau: if a Great Master's painting (original canvas) is burned in a museum fire, this is important knowledge when it apparently surfaces later at auction... ←
15:58:48 <Curt> I've got to go, but I'll think about this some more...
Curt Tilmes: I've got to go, but I'll think about this some more... ←
15:58:52 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:58:54 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes
Zakim IRC Bot: -Curt_Tilmes ←
15:58:56 <GK> I see here there's a weak consensus for leaving expiration as proposed. Nobody opposed it, just lots of people didn't care.
Graham Klyne: I see here there's a weak consensus for leaving expiration as proposed. Nobody opposed it, just lots of people didn't care. ←
15:58:58 <Zakim> -olaf
Zakim IRC Bot: -olaf ←
15:59:01 <MacTed> (concrete, real world, not rotten eggs...)
Ted Thibodeau: (concrete, real world, not rotten eggs...) ←
15:59:40 <smiles> Paolo: Will come up with a couple more examples, seems odd to express only one end of timeslice
Paolo Missier: Will come up with a couple more examples, seems odd to express only one end of timeslice ←
16:00:03 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
16:00:11 <Luc> ack paolo
Luc Moreau: ack paolo ←
16:01:00 <GK> @paolo I mentioned earlier that if there were a specific activity-related event that causes an entity toi be invalidated, that would make sense.
Graham Klyne: @paolo I mentioned earlier that if there were a specific activity-related event that causes an entity toi be invalidated, that would make sense. ←
16:01:08 <smiles> Luc: MacTed please share definition by email
Luc Moreau: MacTed please share definition by email ←
16:01:32 <GK> @Luc - burned poainting - se eprevious comment :)
Graham Klyne: @Luc - burned poainting - se eprevious comment :) ←
16:01:36 <smiles> ... GK, MacTed's example is interesting one to motivate
... GK, MacTed's example is interesting one to motivate ←
16:01:43 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
16:01:52 <GK> Bye.
Graham Klyne: Bye. ←
16:01:53 <Zakim> -tlebo
Zakim IRC Bot: -tlebo ←
16:01:54 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame
Zakim IRC Bot: -khalidbelhajjame ←
16:01:55 <Zakim> -jun
Zakim IRC Bot: -jun ←
16:01:56 <Zakim> -SamCoppens
Zakim IRC Bot: -SamCoppens ←
16:01:56 <Zakim> -kai
Zakim IRC Bot: -kai ←
16:01:59 <Zakim> - +1.443.708.aacc
Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.443.708.aacc ←
16:02:00 <Zakim> -MacTed
Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed ←
16:02:01 <Zakim> -jcheney
Zakim IRC Bot: -jcheney ←
16:02:02 <Zakim> -GK
Zakim IRC Bot: -GK ←
16:02:08 <Zakim> -Luc
Zakim IRC Bot: -Luc ←
16:02:10 <Zakim> -Paolo
Zakim IRC Bot: -Paolo ←
16:02:25 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller] ←
16:02:34 <Luc> rrsagent, set log public
Luc Moreau: rrsagent, set log public ←
16:02:37 <Luc> rrsagent, draft minutes
Luc Moreau: rrsagent, draft minutes ←
16:02:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/15-prov-minutes.html Luc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/15-prov-minutes.html Luc ←
16:02:42 <Luc> trackbot, end telcon
Luc Moreau: trackbot, end telcon ←
16:02:42 <trackbot> Sorry, Luc, I don't understand 'trackbot, end telcon '. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, Luc, I don't understand 'trackbot, end telcon '. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help ←
16:03:15 <smiles> trackbot, end telecon
trackbot, end telecon ←
16:03:15 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees ←
16:03:15 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Luc, Paolo, MacTed, Curt_Tilmes, dgarijo?, +1.315.723.aaaa, tlebo, +49.302.093.aabb, +1.443.708.aacc, jun, jcheney, SamCoppens, GK,
Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been Luc, Paolo, MacTed, Curt_Tilmes, dgarijo?, +1.315.723.aaaa, tlebo, +49.302.093.aabb, +1.443.708.aacc, jun, jcheney, SamCoppens, GK, ←
16:03:19 <Zakim> ... +49.302.093.aaee, olaf, khalidbelhajjame, [IPcaller], kai
Zakim IRC Bot: ... +49.302.093.aaee, olaf, khalidbelhajjame, [IPcaller], kai ←
16:03:23 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes ←
16:03:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/15-prov-minutes.html trackbot
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/15-prov-minutes.html trackbot ←
16:03:24 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye ←
16:03:24 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see no action items ←
Formatted by CommonScribe