Normal admin issues and reminded the working group of the time change for Europe for the next two weeks.
The chairs proposed to colocate the next F2F meeting with IPAW. A poll was set-up to agree on times. The working group was encouraged to provide a response by next early next week.
Update on the prov-o ontology. Progress has been made on the html structure and automating the creating of it from the ontology. Much work has been done on revising the ontology and preparing for easier mapping between prov-o and prov-dm.
Editors addressed most comments from the review of WD4 all remaining comments are noted in the document. It was agreed to include a revised version of derivation in WD4. The group also agreed to change the name of PROV-ASN to PROV-N. With these changes included, it was agreed to freeze WD4 as an internal release. A discussion around the new version of derivation was held.
15:56:47 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/08-prov-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/08-prov-irc ←
15:56:49 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
15:56:51 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be ←
15:56:52 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
15:56:52 <trackbot> Date: 08 March 2012
15:56:53 <pgroth> Zakim, this will be PROV
Paul Groth: Zakim, this will be PROV ←
15:56:53 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot ←
15:56:56 <Zakim> ok, pgroth, I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM already started
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, pgroth, I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM already started ←
15:57:05 <pgroth> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.03.08
15:57:11 <pgroth> Chair: Paul Groth
15:57:27 <pgroth> Scribe: Paolo Missier
(Scribe set to Paolo Missier)
15:57:33 <pgroth> rrsagent, make logs public
Paul Groth: rrsagent, make logs public ←
15:57:51 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.443.212.aaaa ←
16:00:13 <Zakim> +??P9
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P9 ←
16:00:40 <Zakim> +Curt_Tilmes
Zakim IRC Bot: +Curt_Tilmes ←
16:00:52 <Zakim> +??P26
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P26 ←
16:01:07 <GK> Zakim, ??p26 is me
Graham Klyne: Zakim, ??p26 is me ←
16:01:07 <Zakim> +GK; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +GK; got it ←
16:01:22 <Zakim> + +1.315.330.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.315.330.aabb ←
16:01:31 <tlebo> zakim, I am aabb
Timothy Lebo: zakim, I am aabb ←
16:01:31 <Zakim> +tlebo; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +tlebo; got it ←
16:01:41 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller.a] ←
16:02:07 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me
Khalid Belhajjame: zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me ←
16:02:20 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +khalidbelhajjame; got it ←
16:02:26 <Zakim> +sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: +sandro ←
16:03:19 <pgroth> topic: Admin
Summary: Normal admin issues and reminded the working group of the time change for Europe for the next two weeks.
<pgroth> Summary: Normal admin issues and reminded the working group of the time change for Europe for the next two weeks.
16:03:29 <pgroth> Minutes of the Feb 23 2012 Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-03-01
Paul Groth: Minutes of the Feb 23 2012 Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-03-01 ←
16:03:42 <Curt> +1
Curt Tilmes: +1 ←
16:03:43 <paolo> +1
+1 ←
16:03:44 <khalidbelhajjame> +1
Khalid Belhajjame: +1 ←
16:03:48 <Mike> +1
Michael Lang: +1 ←
16:03:49 <tlebo> +1
Timothy Lebo: +1 ←
16:03:50 <GK> +1
Graham Klyne: +1 ←
16:03:55 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo
Zakim IRC Bot: +Satya_Sahoo ←
16:04:10 <Zakim> +??P27
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P27 ←
16:04:17 <satya> +1
Satya Sahoo: +1 ←
16:04:22 <jun> zakim, ??P27 is me
Jun Zhao: zakim, ??P27 is me ←
16:04:22 <Zakim> +jun; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +jun; got it ←
16:04:39 <pgroth> Accepted Minutes of the Feb 23 2012 Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-03-01
Paul Groth: Accepted Minutes of the Feb 23 2012 Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-03-01 ←
16:04:46 <pgroth> Zakim, who is on the call?
Paul Groth: Zakim, who is on the call? ←
16:04:46 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P21, [IPcaller], Luc, +1.443.212.aaaa, ??P9, Curt_Tilmes, GK, tlebo, khalidbelhajjame, sandro, Satya_Sahoo, jun
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see ??P21, [IPcaller], Luc, +1.443.212.aaaa, ??P9, Curt_Tilmes, GK, tlebo, khalidbelhajjame, sandro, Satya_Sahoo, jun ←
16:04:56 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/open
Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/open ←
16:05:27 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller.a] ←
16:05:42 <Zakim> +??P34
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P34 ←
16:05:50 <jcheney> zakim, ??p34 is me
James Cheney: zakim, ??p34 is me ←
16:05:50 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +jcheney; got it ←
16:05:53 <paolo> k action can be closed
k action can be closed ←
16:06:06 <GK> @paul I guess we'll talk about updating PROV-AQ - I've been focusing my limited efforts this week on reviewing DM updates
Graham Klyne: @paul I guess we'll talk about updating PROV-AQ - I've been focusing my limited efforts this week on reviewing DM updates ←
16:06:13 <paolo> daniel's action can be closed
daniel's action can be closed ←
16:06:28 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.aa]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller.aa] ←
16:07:28 <pgroth> topic: F2F3
Summary: The chairs proposed to colocate the next F2F meeting with IPAW. A poll was set-up to agree on times. The working group was encouraged to provide a response by next early next week.
<pgroth> Summary: The chairs proposed to colocate the next F2F meeting with IPAW. A poll was set-up to agree on times. The working group was encouraged to provide a response by next early next week.
16:07:29 <GK> Mar !!???? I have Mar 15 and 22
Graham Klyne: Mar !!???? I have Mar 15 and 22 ←
16:08:09 <pgroth> Please fill poll https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/46974/f2f3/
Paul Groth: Please fill poll https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/46974/f2f3/ ←
16:08:14 <pgroth> June 22 - 23
Paul Groth: June 22 - 23 ←
16:08:16 <paolo> pgroth: co-locate with IPAW. should be in US anyways
Paul Groth: co-locate with IPAW. should be in US anyways ←
16:08:26 <Zakim> +??P14
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P14 ←
16:08:53 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
16:09:03 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P14 is me
Daniel Garijo: Zakim, ??P14 is me ←
16:09:03 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +dgarijo; got it ←
16:09:08 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
16:09:16 <pgroth> topic: Prov-o
Summary: Update on the prov-o ontology. Progress has been made on the html structure and automating the creating of it from the ontology. Much work has been done on revising the ontology and preparing for easier mapping between prov-o and prov-dm.
<pgroth> Summary: Update on the prov-o ontology. Progress has been made on the html structure and automating the creating of it from the ontology. Much work has been done on revising the ontology and preparing for easier mapping between prov-o and prov-dm.
16:09:20 <GK> That meeting date is Friday and saturday, right?
Graham Klyne: That meeting date is Friday and saturday, right? ←
16:09:24 <pgroth> yes
Paul Groth: yes ←
16:09:24 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.03.08#PROV-O
Timothy Lebo: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.03.08#PROV-O ←
16:09:44 <pgroth> Zakim, who is on the call?
Paul Groth: Zakim, who is on the call? ←
16:09:44 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P21, [IPcaller], Luc, +1.443.212.aaaa, ??P9, Curt_Tilmes, GK, tlebo, khalidbelhajjame, sandro, Satya_Sahoo, jun, [IPcaller.a], jcheney, [IPcaller.aa], dgarijo
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see ??P21, [IPcaller], Luc, +1.443.212.aaaa, ??P9, Curt_Tilmes, GK, tlebo, khalidbelhajjame, sandro, Satya_Sahoo, jun, [IPcaller.a], jcheney, [IPcaller.aa], dgarijo ←
16:09:48 <dgarijo> Sorry to be late. Yes, I've finished my aciton, along with Tim and Mike.
Daniel Garijo: Sorry to be late. Yes, I've finished my aciton, along with Tim and Mike. ←
16:09:51 <pgroth> Zakim, ??P21 is me
Paul Groth: Zakim, ??P21 is me ←
16:09:51 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +pgroth; got it ←
16:09:59 <paolo> tlebo: owl: processing issues, created new product just for HTML in the tracker
Timothy Lebo: owl: processing issues, created new product just for HTML in the tracker ←
16:10:28 <paolo> tlebo: changes occurred to OWL onto over the week. free to review
Timothy Lebo: changes occurred to OWL onto over the week. free to review ←
16:10:43 <paolo> tlebo: changes to OWL have corresp. changes to the RDF pages
Timothy Lebo: changes to OWL have corresp. changes to the RDF pages ←
16:10:59 <paolo> tlebo: new comparisons to the coverage overview page available
Timothy Lebo: new comparisons to the coverage overview page available ←
16:11:23 <paolo> tlebo: HTML side: new product in tracker. Jun + Khalid presented a proposal for new doc structure
Timothy Lebo: HTML side: new product in tracker. Jun + Khalid presented a proposal for new doc structure ←
16:11:35 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
16:11:38 <paolo> tlebo: well received during the monday call.
Timothy Lebo: well received during the monday call. ←
16:11:54 <paolo> tlebo: journalism example shown, sketch of diagram
Timothy Lebo: journalism example shown, sketch of diagram ←
16:12:15 <paolo> tlebo: onto visualization tool to help Khalid and Jun (Daniel?)
Timothy Lebo: onto visualization tool to help Khalid and Jun (Daniel?) ←
16:12:28 <paolo> tlebo: new page creation mechanism available
Timothy Lebo: new page creation mechanism available ←
16:12:39 <paolo> tlebo: getting ready to review next iteration
Timothy Lebo: getting ready to review next iteration ←
16:12:53 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
16:12:55 <paolo> tlebo: will then assign specific sections of the doc
Timothy Lebo: will then assign specific sections of the doc ←
16:13:11 <Luc> q+ to ask about html generation tool
Luc Moreau: q+ to ask about html generation tool ←
16:13:17 <paolo> pgroth: plan for deciding which automated gen tool to use?
Paul Groth: plan for deciding which automated gen tool to use? ←
16:13:23 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
16:13:26 <Zakim> + +329331aacc
Zakim IRC Bot: + +329331aacc ←
16:13:29 <paolo> tlebo: will emerge from discussion of next iteration
Timothy Lebo: will emerge from discussion of next iteration ←
16:13:38 <pgroth> ack Luc
Paul Groth: ack Luc ←
16:13:39 <Zakim> Luc, you wanted to ask about html generation tool
Zakim IRC Bot: Luc, you wanted to ask about html generation tool ←
16:13:45 <dgarijo> I think that LODE was the most successful
Daniel Garijo: I think that LODE was the most successful ←
16:14:19 <paolo> Luc: how about printing requirement
Luc Moreau: how about printing requirement ←
16:14:20 <pgroth> q+ to say that we need to ensure that we follow the w3c rec format
Paul Groth: q+ to say that we need to ensure that we follow the w3c rec format ←
16:14:28 <paolo> tlebo: will be taken into account
Timothy Lebo: will be taken into account ←
16:14:38 <GK> (Doesn't mean one can't also have a browsable form :)
Graham Klyne: (Doesn't mean one can't also have a browsable form :) ←
16:15:00 <pgroth> ack pgroth
Paul Groth: ack pgroth ←
16:15:00 <Zakim> pgroth, you wanted to say that we need to ensure that we follow the w3c rec format
Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth, you wanted to say that we need to ensure that we follow the w3c rec format ←
16:15:10 <dgarijo> You can browse the different tools at: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Generating_HTML_documentation_of_OWL#PROV-O_Views_in_the_previous_tools
Daniel Garijo: You can browse the different tools at: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Generating_HTML_documentation_of_OWL#PROV-O_Views_in_the_previous_tools ←
16:15:15 <paolo> pgroth: SW coord meeting says any format we use must be compatible with the W3C prescribed style guide
Paul Groth: SW coord meeting says any format we use must be compatible with the W3C prescribed style guide ←
16:15:26 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
16:15:33 <paolo> tlebo: ok so far, on the todo list for the future
Timothy Lebo: ok so far, on the todo list for the future ←
16:16:15 <paolo> tlebo: simplification & alignment: propose to flatten part of the Involvement hierarchy
Timothy Lebo: simplification & alignment: propose to flatten part of the Involvement hierarchy ←
16:16:45 <paolo> tlebo: proposal sent out on Tue. Khalid responded. Will be implemented shortly
Timothy Lebo: proposal sent out on Tue. Khalid responded. Will be implemented shortly ←
16:16:50 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
16:16:58 <dgarijo> I don't object as long as we have the hierarchy on the properties.
Daniel Garijo: I don't object as long as we have the hierarchy on the properties. ←
16:17:26 <paolo> pgroth: date for automated version?
Paul Groth: date for automated version? ←
16:17:43 <paolo> tlebo: aggregation of all threads under review by Monday
Timothy Lebo: aggregation of all threads under review by Monday ←
16:17:44 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
16:17:58 <dgarijo> @tlebo: if you need some additional help, please tell me.
Daniel Garijo: @tlebo: if you need some additional help, please tell me. ←
16:18:11 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
16:18:17 <paolo> tlebo: results on next iteration to be available by Tue or Wed
Timothy Lebo: results on next iteration to be available by Tue or Wed ←
16:18:22 <pgroth> topic: prov-dm
Summary: Editors addressed most comments from the review of WD4 all remaining comments are noted in the document. It was agreed to include a revised version of derivation in WD4. The group also agreed to change the name of PROV-ASN to PROV-N. With these changes included, it was agreed to freeze WD4 as an internal release. A discussion around the new version of derivation was held.
<pgroth> Summary: Editors addressed most comments from the review of WD4 all remaining comments are noted in the document. It was agreed to include a revised version of derivation in WD4. The group also agreed to change the name of PROV-ASN to PROV-N. With these changes included, it was agreed to freeze WD4 as an internal release. A discussion around the new version of derivation was held.
16:18:33 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/274
Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/274 ←
16:19:10 <paolo> Luc: all comments grouped last week (Luc and Paolo) as ISSUE-274
Luc Moreau: all comments grouped last week (Luc and Paolo) as ISSUE-274 ←
16:19:23 <paolo> Luc: most resolved, rest noted in the current doc
Luc Moreau: most resolved, rest noted in the current doc ←
16:19:50 <paolo> Luc: WD4 work to be frozen so that next set of tech issues can be tackled
Luc Moreau: WD4 work to be frozen so that next set of tech issues can be tackled ←
16:19:55 <Zakim> +??P64
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P64 ←
16:20:16 <paolo> Luc: important for PROV-o and other "serialisers" to have a frozen PROV-DM
Luc Moreau: important for PROV-o and other "serialisers" to have a frozen PROV-DM ←
16:20:25 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
16:20:25 <paolo> Luc: feedback solicited
Luc Moreau: feedback solicited ←
16:21:05 <GK> I reviewed DM4 today (up to about middle of section 4); much improved over previous but still some issues - happy to see these considered for DM5.
Graham Klyne: I reviewed DM4 today (up to about middle of section 4); much improved over previous but still some issues - happy to see these considered for DM5. ←
16:21:19 <GK> (Just sent comments to list)
Graham Klyne: (Just sent comments to list) ←
16:21:21 <paolo> Luc: no response from Tim, but know he's been looking into WD4 for PROV-O. ok to move on?
Luc Moreau: no response from Tim, but know he's been looking into WD4 for PROV-O. ok to move on? ←
16:21:41 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
16:21:45 <paolo> tlebo: sec. II and III missed so far, but will go with group's decision to Freeze
Timothy Lebo: sec. II and III missed so far, but will go with group's decision to Freeze ←
16:22:32 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
16:22:33 <paolo> GK: current comments sent to list supersede previous ones
Graham Klyne: current comments sent to list supersede previous ones ←
16:22:35 <pgroth> q+
Paul Groth: q+ ←
16:23:19 <pgroth> ack pgroth
Paul Groth: ack pgroth ←
16:23:28 <paolo> pgroth: happy to freeze, but does that entail updating the RDF if any signatures have changed?
Paul Groth: happy to freeze, but does that entail updating the RDF if any signatures have changed? ←
16:24:37 <paolo> tlebo: discrepancies are automatically detected -- thanks to changes in the PROV-DM markup
Timothy Lebo: discrepancies are automatically detected -- thanks to changes in the PROV-DM markup ←
16:25:04 <Luc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/wd5-prov-dm-derivation.html
Luc Moreau: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/wd5-prov-dm-derivation.html ←
16:25:39 <paolo> Luc: WD4 text on derivation is still the same as WD3. but needs simplification. Link above is a proposal
Luc Moreau: WD4 text on derivation is still the same as WD3. but needs simplification. Link above is a proposal ←
16:25:43 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.aaa]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller.aaa] ←
16:26:16 <paolo> Luc: reviewed by Simon and others. Recent comments from GK and Curt taken into account
Luc Moreau: reviewed by Simon and others. Recent comments from GK and Curt taken into account ←
16:26:19 <GK> New text is big improvement. I still have some issues with content but happy to see new text as basis of ongoing comments.
Graham Klyne: New text is big improvement. I still have some issues with content but happy to see new text as basis of ongoing comments. ←
16:26:50 <paolo> Luc: seeking WG approval to incorporate into the editor's draft. and should it go into WD4 or WD5
Luc Moreau: seeking WG approval to incorporate into the editor's draft. and should it go into WD4 or WD5 ←
16:26:51 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
16:27:22 <paolo> GK: still some issues, but big improvement. can go forward for discussion
Graham Klyne: still some issues, but big improvement. can go forward for discussion ←
16:28:20 <paolo> Curt: agree that changes look good. some workflows may have requirements that match the current proposal
Curt Tilmes: agree that changes look good. some workflows may have requirements that match the current proposal ←
16:28:42 <paolo> Luc: where is this explained? DM part I or primer? seeking advice
Luc Moreau: where is this explained? DM part I or primer? seeking advice ←
16:28:46 <GK> q+ to say I think there's scope for simplifying here
Graham Klyne: q+ to say I think there's scope for simplifying here ←
16:29:17 <pgroth> ack GK
Paul Groth: ack GK ←
16:29:17 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to say I think there's scope for simplifying here
Zakim IRC Bot: GK, you wanted to say I think there's scope for simplifying here ←
16:29:25 <paolo> Curt: suggest to use derivation simply, not tied into the roles and not tied back to gen/usage. These details may not go in part I
Curt Tilmes: suggest to use derivation simply, not tied into the roles and not tied back to gen/usage. These details may not go in part I ←
16:29:49 <Luc> q+
Luc Moreau: q+ ←
16:30:01 <pgroth> ack Luc
Paul Groth: ack Luc ←
16:30:11 <paolo> GK: the entity-entity derivation can be accomplished by introducing an activity.
Graham Klyne: the entity-entity derivation can be accomplished by introducing an activity. ←
16:30:45 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
16:30:56 <pgroth> we have time :-)
Paul Groth: we have time :-) ←
16:31:00 <paolo> Luc: but activities may be unknown, and also may not be known how "source" entities contributed, so a link into the derivation record is needed
Luc Moreau: but activities may be unknown, and also may not be known how "source" entities contributed, so a link into the derivation record is needed ←
16:31:01 <Curt> q+ could attributes be used to tie that?
Curt Tilmes: q+ could attributes be used to tie that? ←
16:31:02 <tlebo> q+
Timothy Lebo: q+ ←
16:31:12 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
16:31:15 <paolo> GK: not sure -- to be discussed further
Graham Klyne: not sure -- to be discussed further ←
16:31:26 <tlebo> q-
Timothy Lebo: q- ←
16:31:41 <tlebo> q+ to ask if WD4 vs WD5 is on the table for derivation's definition
Timothy Lebo: q+ to ask if WD4 vs WD5 is on the table for derivation's definition ←
16:31:53 <pgroth> q+
Paul Groth: q+ ←
16:31:55 <paolo> Curt: can't role be used
Curt Tilmes: can't role be used ←
16:32:13 <pgroth> ack tlebo
Paul Groth: ack tlebo ←
16:32:13 <Zakim> tlebo, you wanted to ask if WD4 vs WD5 is on the table for derivation's definition
Zakim IRC Bot: tlebo, you wanted to ask if WD4 vs WD5 is on the table for derivation's definition ←
16:32:20 <paolo> Luc: roles in this case superseded by instances of usage/gen -- so need to be able to refer to those
Luc Moreau: roles in this case superseded by instances of usage/gen -- so need to be able to refer to those ←
16:32:39 <paolo> tlebo: should new defs go in WD4 or WD5
Timothy Lebo: should new defs go in WD4 or WD5 ←
16:32:54 <GK> q+ to ask if "usage" and "generation" are events? (happy to discuss in email if we're moving on)
Graham Klyne: q+ to ask if "usage" and "generation" are events? (happy to discuss in email if we're moving on) ←
16:33:06 <paolo> pgroth: suggest WD4 as it simplifies work on PROV-O, gives it only one derivation to work with
Paul Groth: suggest WD4 as it simplifies work on PROV-O, gives it only one derivation to work with ←
16:33:19 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
16:33:23 <paolo> tlebo: agree
Timothy Lebo: agree ←
16:33:29 <tlebo> q-
Timothy Lebo: q- ←
16:33:33 <pgroth> ack pgroth
Paul Groth: ack pgroth ←
16:33:50 <stainPhone> @tlebo +1
Stian Soiland-Reyes: @tlebo +1 ←
16:34:02 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
16:34:10 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
16:34:24 <pgroth> ack GK
Paul Groth: ack GK ←
16:34:24 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to ask if "usage" and "generation" are events? (happy to discuss in email if we're moving on)
Zakim IRC Bot: GK, you wanted to ask if "usage" and "generation" are events? (happy to discuss in email if we're moving on) ←
16:34:25 <paolo> GK: please continue discussion on the list. still some confusion
Graham Klyne: please continue discussion on the list. still some confusion ←
16:34:27 <Luc> To incorporate the proposal on derivation in the current editor's draft (WD4)
Luc Moreau: To incorporate the proposal on derivation in the current editor's draft (WD4) ←
16:34:36 <Luc> PROPOSED: To incorporate the proposal on derivation in the current editor's draft (WD4)
PROPOSED: To incorporate the proposal on derivation in the current editor's draft (WD4) ←
16:34:36 <stainPhone> yes, how cam tou talk anput usage without the using activity?
Stian Soiland-Reyes: yes, how cam tou talk anput usage without the using activity? ←
16:34:51 <stainPhone> +1
Stian Soiland-Reyes: +1 ←
16:34:52 <Curt> +1
Curt Tilmes: +1 ←
16:34:53 <GK> +1
Graham Klyne: +1 ←
16:34:53 <paolo> +1
+1 ←
16:34:55 <tlebo> +1
Timothy Lebo: +1 ←
16:34:57 <satya> +1
Satya Sahoo: +1 ←
16:34:57 <Mike> +1
Michael Lang: +1 ←
16:34:57 <dgarijo> +1
Daniel Garijo: +1 ←
16:34:58 <khalidbelhajjame> +1
Khalid Belhajjame: +1 ←
16:34:58 <SamCoppens> +1
Sam Coppens: +1 ←
16:34:58 <smiles> +1
Simon Miles: +1 ←
16:35:03 <jcheney> +1
James Cheney: +1 ←
16:35:11 <pgroth> Accepted: To incorporate the proposal on derivation in the current editor's draft (WD4)
RESOLVED: To incorporate the proposal on derivation in the current editor's draft (WD4) ←
16:35:39 <GK> I think freezing an editors draft is editor's call
Graham Klyne: I think freezing an editors draft is editor's call ←
16:36:03 <paolo> Luc: incorporate proposal for derivation in WD4, then freeze WD4. fixed URL for internal use only
Luc Moreau: incorporate proposal for derivation in WD4, then freeze WD4. fixed URL for internal use only ←
16:36:06 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
16:36:36 <Luc> q+
Luc Moreau: q+ ←
16:36:37 <paolo> q+
q+ ←
16:36:49 <stainPhone> so wd4 will not be published? or later w/provo wd2 etc?
Stian Soiland-Reyes: so wd4 will not be published? or later w/provo wd2 etc? ←
16:36:53 <Curt> PROV-N
Curt Tilmes: PROV-N ←
16:36:55 <paolo> Luc: can we find a name for the ASN?
Luc Moreau: can we find a name for the ASN? ←
16:36:56 <Curt> ISSUE 273
16:37:13 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
16:37:14 <stainPhone> something non-abstract! ;)
Stian Soiland-Reyes: something non-abstract! ;) ←
16:37:20 <pgroth> ack Luc
Paul Groth: ack Luc ←
16:37:43 <paolo> q-
q- ←
16:37:57 <stainPhone> PROV-N +1
Stian Soiland-Reyes: PROV-N +1 ←
16:37:58 <Curt> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/273
Curt Tilmes: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/273 ←
16:38:03 <tlebo> PROV-N +1
Timothy Lebo: PROV-N +1 ←
16:38:04 <paolo> proposals so far: PROV-N and "functional notation"
proposals so far: PROV-N and "functional notation" ←
16:38:11 <zednik> PROV-N +1
Stephan Zednik: PROV-N +1 ←
16:38:13 <GK> I'm OK with PROV-N. "functional notation" by analogy with OWL
Graham Klyne: I'm OK with PROV-N. "functional notation" by analogy with OWL ←
16:38:21 <pgroth> PROV-0, PROV-DM, PROV-AQ, PROV-Primer
Paul Groth: PROV-0, PROV-DM, PROV-AQ, PROV-Primer ←
16:38:25 <paolo> PROV-N +1
PROV-N +1 ←
16:38:43 <pgroth> PROV-N
Paul Groth: PROV-N ←
16:38:43 <GK> (But I'd prefer it as an appendix in part 1)
Graham Klyne: (But I'd prefer it as an appendix in part 1) ←
16:38:50 <dgarijo> PROV-N +1
Daniel Garijo: PROV-N +1 ←
16:39:08 <SamCoppens> PROV-N +1
Sam Coppens: PROV-N +1 ←
16:39:12 <GK> +0.5 (don't care too much)
Graham Klyne: +0.5 (don't care too much) ←
16:39:13 <paolo> yep I just voted :-)
yep I just voted :-) ←
16:39:14 <Curt> PROV-N +1
Curt Tilmes: PROV-N +1 ←
16:39:20 <satya> +1
Satya Sahoo: +1 ←
16:39:33 <pgroth> Consensus, to change PROV-ASN to PROV-N in WD4
Paul Groth: Consensus, to change PROV-ASN to PROV-N in WD4 ←
16:39:47 <GK> I think most important thing is to update references in the text
Graham Klyne: I think most important thing is to update references in the text ←
16:39:48 <pgroth> Accepted: to change PROV-ASN to PROV-N in WD4
RESOLVED: to change PROV-ASN to PROV-N in WD4 ←
16:39:57 <paolo> q+
q+ ←
16:40:07 <pgroth> ace paolo
Paul Groth: ace paolo ←
16:40:10 <pgroth> ack paolo
Paul Groth: ack paolo ←
16:40:11 <GK> q+
Graham Klyne: q+ ←
16:40:14 <pgroth> ack GK
Paul Groth: ack GK ←
16:40:49 <jun> I'll have to leave
Jun Zhao: I'll have to leave ←
16:41:20 <GK> Agree discuss for understanding
Graham Klyne: Agree discuss for understanding ←
16:41:29 <Zakim> -jun
Zakim IRC Bot: -jun ←
16:41:32 <Zakim> +??P5
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P5 ←
16:41:46 <Zakim> - +1.443.212.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.443.212.aaaa ←
16:41:52 <Paolo_> (back)
(back) ←
16:42:18 <GK> GK: why is not being able to infer activity an issue in derivation?
Graham Klyne: why is not being able to infer activity an issue in derivation? [ Scribe Assist by Graham Klyne ] ←
16:42:27 <GK> Luc: (a) reproducibility
Luc Moreau: (a) reproducibility [ Scribe Assist by Graham Klyne ] ←
16:42:33 <GK> (b) analysis of traces
Graham Klyne: (b) analysis of traces ←
16:42:37 <Paolo_> Luc: issue with analysis with provenance traces
Luc Moreau: issue with analysis with provenance traces ←
16:42:43 <Paolo_> (I can resume GK, thanks)
(I can resume GK, thanks) ←
16:43:02 <pgroth> Zakim, who's load?
Paul Groth: Zakim, who's load? ←
16:43:02 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, pgroth.
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand your question, pgroth. ←
16:43:05 <Paolo_> Luc: type of activity important for reproducibility and analysis
Luc Moreau: type of activity important for reproducibility and analysis ←
16:43:07 <Zakim> -sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -sandro ←
16:43:09 <pgroth> Zakim, who's loud?
Paul Groth: Zakim, who's loud? ←
16:43:09 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, pgroth.
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand your question, pgroth. ←
16:43:20 <tlebo> zakim, who is making noise?
Timothy Lebo: zakim, who is making noise? ←
16:43:31 <Zakim> tlebo, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
Zakim IRC Bot: tlebo, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds ←
16:43:58 <Paolo_> Luc: details about input bindings into a procedure are only known from the usage records associated with the derivation
Luc Moreau: details about input bindings into a procedure are only known from the usage records associated with the derivation ←
16:44:15 <stainPhone> but it is OK for a to be derived from b, generated by x, without x using b, right?
Stian Soiland-Reyes: but it is OK for a to be derived from b, generated by x, without x using b, right? ←
16:44:52 <Paolo_> Luc: practical POV: a given activity may use same entity multiple times, with different roles
Luc Moreau: practical POV: a given activity may use same entity multiple times, with different roles ←
16:45:24 <stainPhone> or is (equivalent of) inprecise-n out now?
Stian Soiland-Reyes: or is (equivalent of) inprecise-n out now? ←
16:45:33 <Paolo_> Luc: formal POV: in the context of OPM there is a need to kow which activity is associated with each derivation, roles allow for some completeness results
Luc Moreau: formal POV: in the context of OPM there is a need to kow which activity is associated with each derivation, roles allow for some completeness results ←
16:46:05 <satya> @GK, agree - derivation is not for incorporating activity information
Satya Sahoo: @GK, agree - derivation is not for incorporating activity information ←
16:46:06 <satya> q+
Satya Sahoo: q+ ←
16:46:10 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
16:46:22 <Paolo_> GK: explicit activity expression already allowed this. This E-E derivation useful when that's not available?
Graham Klyne: explicit activity expression already allowed this. This E-E derivation useful when that's not available? ←
16:46:23 <GK> I understand there;'s a need to express this information, but I thought it was possible through explicit activity/event expressions; entity-entity is for when less info is available?
Graham Klyne: I understand there;'s a need to express this information, but I thought it was possible through explicit activity/event expressions; entity-entity is for when less info is available? ←
16:46:58 <khalidbelhajjame> Usage + Generation does not always allow inferring Derivation
Khalid Belhajjame: Usage + Generation does not always allow inferring Derivation ←
16:47:07 <Paolo_> Luc: activities are not just function calls, entities can be consumed at any time -- usage does not imply derivation
Luc Moreau: activities are not just function calls, entities can be consumed at any time -- usage does not imply derivation ←
16:47:09 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
16:47:14 <pgroth> ack satya
Paul Groth: ack satya ←
16:47:16 <stainPhone> q+
Stian Soiland-Reyes: q+ ←
16:47:28 <GK> Ah usage + generation !=> derivation - forgot that.
Graham Klyne: Ah usage + generation !=> derivation - forgot that. ←
16:47:51 <Paolo_> satya: why should usage/generation/roles be brought into a derivation record?
Satya Sahoo: why should usage/generation/roles be brought into a derivation record? ←
16:48:04 <Paolo_> satya: we are not trying to make inferences using derivation
Satya Sahoo: we are not trying to make inferences using derivation ←
16:48:26 <GK> Stian not hearing you
Graham Klyne: Stian not hearing you ←
16:48:29 <khalidbelhajjame> We didn't hear you Stian
Khalid Belhajjame: We didn't hear you Stian ←
16:48:51 <Paolo_> stian: (hard to hear)
Stian Soiland-Reyes: (hard to hear) ←
16:48:53 <stainPhone> ok
Stian Soiland-Reyes: ok ←
16:48:57 <khalidbelhajjame> Still breaking Stian
Khalid Belhajjame: Still breaking Stian ←
16:48:59 <tlebo> is it this: but it is OK for a to be derived from b, generated by x, without x using b, right?
Timothy Lebo: is it this: but it is OK for a to be derived from b, generated by x, without x using b, right? ←
16:49:01 <stainPhone> ill type, go ahead
Stian Soiland-Reyes: ill type, go ahead ←
16:49:11 <Paolo_> (I missed it)
(I missed it) ←
16:49:11 <stainPhone> tlebo, right
Stian Soiland-Reyes: tlebo, right ←
16:50:14 <Paolo_> Luc: @stian example is correct
Luc Moreau: @stian example is correct ←
16:50:30 <Curt> You could even have e2 derived from e1 in two different ways (two usage roles, if you will) within the same activity
Curt Tilmes: You could even have e2 derived from e1 in two different ways (two usage roles, if you will) within the same activity ←
16:50:32 <Paolo_> Khalid: essentially used imprecise_n derivation
Khalid Belhajjame: essentially used imprecise_n derivation ←
16:50:45 <stainPhone> that makes srnse. but then you cant refer to those usages and generations?
Stian Soiland-Reyes: that makes srnse. but then you cant refer to those usages and generations? ←
16:50:59 <pgroth> q+
Paul Groth: q+ ←
16:51:05 <pgroth> ack stainPhone
Paul Groth: ack stainPhone ←
16:51:06 <Paolo_> GK: is there a use case that requires this form of derivation? possibly can be rephrased in terms of the simpler use
Graham Klyne: is there a use case that requires this form of derivation? possibly can be rephrased in terms of the simpler use ←
16:51:25 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.aaa]
Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller.aaa] ←
16:51:38 <Paolo_> Luc: proposal does not involve embedding a generation / usage record into the derivation. just a reference to those records
Luc Moreau: proposal does not involve embedding a generation / usage record into the derivation. just a reference to those records ←
16:51:40 <tlebo> @gk, I share your "orthogonalizatiaon" interest, but I view the current definition as a nice way of unifying the (otherwise isoloated) constructs.
Timothy Lebo: @gk, I share your "orthogonalizatiaon" interest, but I view the current definition as a nice way of unifying the (otherwise isoloated) constructs. ←
16:51:58 <Zakim> -??P5
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P5 ←
16:52:14 <Zakim> +??P3
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P3 ←
16:52:18 <pgroth> divison
Paul Groth: divison ←
16:52:30 <Paolo_> zakim, ??P3 is me
zakim, ??P3 is me ←
16:52:30 <Zakim> +Paolo_; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Paolo_; got it ←
16:52:43 <Paolo_> Luc: will put an example in the repo for discussion
Luc Moreau: will put an example in the repo for discussion ←
16:52:44 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
16:52:46 <GK> (I would like to see a use-case that *requires* the complex form of derivation.)
Graham Klyne: (I would like to see a use-case that *requires* the complex form of derivation.) ←
16:53:32 <stainPhone> if wasDerivedFrom(a,b) wasGenBy(a,x) used(b,x) then you are not guarantee that a was derived through that usage of b
Stian Soiland-Reyes: if wasDerivedFrom(a,b) wasGenBy(a,x) used(b,x) then you are not guarantee that a was derived through that usage of b ←
16:53:52 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
16:53:55 <pgroth> ack pgroth
Paul Groth: ack pgroth ←
16:53:59 <GK> OK, if it's useful, then maybe it can be descrtibed as a syntactic sugaring?
Graham Klyne: OK, if it's useful, then maybe it can be descrtibed as a syntactic sugaring? ←
16:54:32 <Paolo_> pgroth: possibly more than syntactic sugar?
Paul Groth: possibly more than syntactic sugar? ←
16:54:36 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
16:54:39 <satya> @Stian: yes agree
Satya Sahoo: @Stian: yes agree ←
16:54:40 <GK> Thanks for letting us air the topic.
Graham Klyne: Thanks for letting us air the topic. ←
16:54:41 <Paolo_> GK: hopefully the example will reveal that
Graham Klyne: hopefully the example will reveal that ←
16:54:52 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo
Zakim IRC Bot: -Satya_Sahoo ←
16:54:53 <Zakim> -tlebo
Zakim IRC Bot: -tlebo ←
16:54:54 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller.a] ←
16:54:55 <Zakim> -Luc
Zakim IRC Bot: -Luc ←
16:54:56 <Zakim> -dgarijo
Zakim IRC Bot: -dgarijo ←
16:54:56 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame
Zakim IRC Bot: -khalidbelhajjame ←
16:54:57 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes
Zakim IRC Bot: -Curt_Tilmes ←
16:54:58 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.aa]
Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller.aa] ←
16:54:59 <Zakim> -jcheney
Zakim IRC Bot: -jcheney ←
16:55:01 <Zakim> -GK
Zakim IRC Bot: -GK ←
16:55:04 <Zakim> -??P64
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P64 ←
16:55:10 <Zakim> - +329331aacc
Zakim IRC Bot: - +329331aacc ←
16:55:11 <stainPhone> imagine used(bZip,x) wasGenBy(bZip, y) used(b,y)
Stian Soiland-Reyes: imagine used(bZip,x) wasGenBy(bZip, y) used(b,y) ←
16:55:16 <Zakim> -Paolo_
Zakim IRC Bot: -Paolo_ ←
16:55:17 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller] ←
16:55:17 <Zakim> -??P9
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P9 ←
16:55:33 <pgroth> rrsagent, set log public
Paul Groth: rrsagent, set log public ←
16:55:38 <pgroth> rrsagent, draft minutes
Paul Groth: rrsagent, draft minutes ←
16:55:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/08-prov-minutes.html pgroth
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/08-prov-minutes.html pgroth ←
16:55:43 <pgroth> trackbot, end telecon
Paul Groth: trackbot, end telecon ←
16:55:43 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees ←
16:55:43 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been [IPcaller], Luc, +1.443.212.aaaa, Curt_Tilmes, GK, +1.315.330.aabb, tlebo, khalidbelhajjame, sandro, Satya_Sahoo, jun, jcheney, dgarijo,
Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been [IPcaller], Luc, +1.443.212.aaaa, Curt_Tilmes, GK, +1.315.330.aabb, tlebo, khalidbelhajjame, sandro, Satya_Sahoo, jun, jcheney, dgarijo, ←
16:55:46 <Zakim> ... pgroth, +329331aacc, Paolo_
Zakim IRC Bot: ... pgroth, +329331aacc, Paolo_ ←
16:55:51 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes ←
16:55:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/08-prov-minutes.html trackbot
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/08-prov-minutes.html trackbot ←
16:55:52 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye ←
16:55:52 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see no action items ←
Formatted by CommonScribe
This revision (#2) generated 2012-03-08 20:30:33 UTC by 'pgroth', comments: 'minor typo'