15:25:51 <stain> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/tip/ontology/Overview.html is current draft

15:26:42 <dgarijo> satya: update on the document. 2 directions: 1) to meet some of the syntatic requirements (most of it done)

15:26:42 <khalidbelhajjame> Items to report from the Formal model (or ontology) group

15:26:44 <khalidbelhajjame> - Working on validating and making the html document compliant with the requirements.

15:26:46 <khalidbelhajjame> Satya identified the tasks need to be done for that purpose, and we assigned the list of tasks among ourselves.

15:26:48 <khalidbelhajjame> I believe that most of the issues has already been dealt with.

15:26:49 <khalidbelhajjame> - The OWL ontology was modified to be in line with the PROV-DM.

15:26:51 <khalidbelhajjame> - Similarily, the HTML document was updated to include classes and properties and be in line with the PROV-DM.

15:26:53 <khalidbelhajjame> - The Diagram representing the ontology was also updated. The diagrams representing the examples (Crime-File and workflow provenance) may still need to be modified to relect the new changes.

15:26:54 <khalidbelhajjame> - Satya is working on the constraints.

15:26:56 <khalidbelhajjame> - Any other thing Tim, Stian?

15:27:20 <dgarijo> stian: added namespaces and fixed images (relative paths vs external links to the wiki).

15:27:34 <dgarijo> ... did xhtml vs html4. We can do either.

15:27:36 <satya> @Khalid: nice documentation!

15:27:58 <Luc> q?

15:28:09 <dgarijo> satya: the second direction: we are aligned with the data model as much as possible.

15:28:22 <pgroth_> +q

15:28:29 <Luc> q?

15:28:33 <dgarijo> Luc: estimated release date?

15:29:07 <dgarijo> satya: last week we released one. We are continuing the process.

15:29:36 <dgarijo> ... right now can be considered as a released document.

15:30:11 <dgarijo> pgroth: wondering on the status on putting all the concepts of the datamodel into the ontology model

15:30:42 <khalidbelhajjame> There is a section at the end of the document that identifies the concepts (relations) that are not considered in the ontology yet

15:30:43 <Luc> and vice-versa!

15:30:43 <dgarijo> ... you could give an idea of which concepts are NOT yet defined in the ontology.

15:31:00 <dgarijo> @khalid, did we add the shortcuts too?

15:31:14 <khalidbelhajjame> @Daniel, not yet

15:31:43 <dgarijo> @khalid, then we should :) I'll give it a try afterwards.

15:31:50 <Luc> q?

15:31:53 <Luc> ack pg

15:32:00 <dgarijo> satya: will do that later

15:32:08 <khalidbelhajjame> @Daniel, yeas please go ahead, and we can discuss it in the next (Monday) telecon

15:32:38 <dgarijo> Luc: very important  point.

15:32:40 <Luc> This document is part of a set of specifications aiming to define the various aspects that are necessary to achieve the visition on inter-operable interchange of provenance information in heterogeneous environments such as the Web. This document defines the PROV-DM data model for provenance, accompanied with a notation to express instances of that data model for human consumption. Two other documents, to be released shortly, are: 1) a normative serialization of PRO

15:33:12 <Paolo> visition  -> vision :-)

15:33:15 <stain> : 1) a normative serialization of PROV-DM in RDF, specified by means of a mapping to the OWL2 Web Ontology Language; 2) the mechanisms for accessing and querying provenance.

15:33:16 <Luc> , specified by means of a mapping to the OWL2 Web Ontology Language; 2) the mechanisms for accessing and querying provenance.

15:33:45 <stain> @Paolo, I like visitations :) Kind of invitation-visits

15:34:14 <Luc> q?

15:34:24 <dgarijo> Luc: it should be clear to readers that all the concept on the data model document are taken in consideration in the ontology. And viceversa: if something is not on the datamodel, then it should be clear too

15:34:49 <dgarijo> satya: the owl ontology is modelling of the data model, not necesarilly a mapping.

15:35:18 <dgarijo> satya: Agrees with Luc, but some of the concepts may not be "encodable" in owl.

15:36:01 <dgarijo> ... we may not be able to map the model directly

15:36:07 <dgarijo> ... in to owl.

15:36:42 <Luc> q?

15:36:47 <dgarijo> Luc: we are going to serialize the model in RDF, that is the message sent to the semantic community.

15:37:23 <dgarijo> ... Ivan was raising is that the kind of the ontology. Is owl-dl? is it simpler?

15:37:31 <stain> I think it's OWL-Lite at the moment

15:37:50 <pgroth_> could you talk about that in the document

15:37:50 <stain> but depending on how much of the constraints we need to describe it might increase to DL

15:37:59 <dgarijo> satya: it should not be owl-full, since it is not decidable.

15:38:00 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]

15:38:23 <Luc> is it OWL2-RL?

15:38:26 <dgarijo> we haven't found anything that constraint us to anything more that owl dl

15:39:02 <dgarijo> we haven't specified any specific constraints yet

15:39:09 <Zakim> +??P4

15:39:29 <stain> it's closer to RDFS, plus owl:IrreflexiveProperty, etc

15:39:34 <satya> PROV-O has DL expressivity of ALR+

15:39:37 <Luc> q?

15:39:38 <dgarijo> Luc: share the documents to get feedback from Sandro, Ivan and others.

15:39:42 <pgroth_> q+

15:40:20 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

15:40:30 <Luc> action on satya to ensure all terms of DM appear in prov-o document

15:40:30 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - on

15:41:08 <dgarijo> pgroth: sum up of what has been decided in the telecon

15:41:16 <satya> @Pgroth: lightweight?

15:41:41 <satya> q+

15:41:48 <Luc> action satya to ensure all terms of DM appear in prov-o document, to justify why other terms are introduced, and to explain lightweight nature of owl ontology

15:41:48 <trackbot> Created ACTION-40 - Ensure all terms of DM appear in prov-o document, to justify why other terms are introduced, and to explain lightweight nature of owl ontology [on Satya Sahoo - due 2011-10-20].

15:41:50 <pgroth_> q-

15:42:00 <dgarijo> @Luc, thanks for recording it.

15:42:07 <pgroth_> q+

15:42:13 <Luc> ack sat

15:42:16 <dgarijo> satya: what do we mean by lightweight?

15:42:21 <satya> q-

15:42:45 <satya> @Pgroth :)

15:42:50 <Luc> ack pg

15:42:58 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]

15:43:23 <dgarijo> pgroth: (too much noise) when we say it's the rdf community means that not doing any crazy modelling of the ontology.

15:43:35 <Zakim> +??P8

15:43:57 <dgarijo> satya: stian has already demonstrated that we can use the ontology for some examples in different scenarios

15:44:03 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, ??P8 is me

15:44:03 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it

15:44:08 <stain> agree

15:44:22 <Luc> topic: Interoperability

<luc>Summary: A position document  on inter-operability was presented.  It is meant as a starting point for a discussion on inter-operability. The WG will have to decide what it means for implementations to inter-operate to reach the level of recommendation.  Suggestions were made about test-suites and validator services. The WG is invited to contribute to the Wiki page and/or initiate email discussions on this topic. The co-chairs will engage with the leads of  the Implementation and Test Cases Task Force to see how we can proceed forward.

15:44:24 <stain> to not scare away people who have been bitten by the massive-owl-full-ontologies

Stian Soiland-Reyes: to not scare away people who have been bitten by the massive-owl-full-ontologies ←

15:44:37 <pgroth_> @stain - exactly

Paul Groth: @stain - exactly ←

15:44:50 <dgarijo> Luc: we will have to decide what we mean by interoperability

Luc Moreau: we will have to decide what we mean by interoperability ←

15:44:54 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Interoperability

Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Interoperability ←

15:45:00 <dgarijo> ... no answers yet

... no answers yet ←

15:45:23 <dgarijo> ... document with some ideas to see if it makes sense.

... document with some ideas to see if it makes sense. ←

15:46:10 <dgarijo> ... the document sumarizes the charter and certain aspects: define the data model independant of any toechnology and mapping to certain technologies.

... the document sumarizes the charter and certain aspects: define the data model independant of any toechnology and mapping to certain technologies. ←

15:46:30 <dgarijo> ... given this, what do we mean by interoperability? Ennumerated 3 types.

... given this, what do we mean by interoperability? Ennumerated 3 types. ←

15:46:58 <dgarijo> ... it is not a complete set of types of interoperability. It is just to start the discussion.

... it is not a complete set of types of interoperability. It is just to start the discussion. ←

15:47:31 <dgarijo> ... the first one: not loose any information when changing the representation.

... the first one: not loose any information when changing the representation. ←

15:47:56 <satya> q+

Satya Sahoo: q+ ←

15:48:18 <dgarijo> second one: different representation with different forms of inference. What you inferr in one representation is desireable to be inferred in the other one.

second one: different representation with different forms of inference. What you inferr in one representation is desireable to be inferred in the other one. ←

15:49:05 <dgarijo> ... thir one: similar to the provenance challenge objective: different provenance systems recording provenance in different formats:  end to end interoperability through systems.

... thir one: similar to the provenance challenge objective: different provenance systems recording provenance in different formats: end to end interoperability through systems. ←

15:49:32 <dgarijo> ... terms in different vocaubaries: ns for the datamodel, ns for the ontology. Is it possible to reuse common urls?

... terms in different vocaubaries: ns for the datamodel, ns for the ontology. Is it possible to reuse common urls? ←

15:49:58 <khalidbelhajjame> +q

Khalid Belhajjame: +q ←

15:49:59 <dgarijo> ... this might not be complete yet, but enough to initiate the debate.

... this might not be complete yet, but enough to initiate the debate. ←

15:50:05 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q? ←

15:50:08 <stain> what is declared in http://www.w3.org/ns/prov/ ? "role" and "type" only?

Stian Soiland-Reyes: what is declared in http://www.w3.org/ns/prov-dm/ ? "role" and "type" only? ←

15:50:10 <dgarijo> ... opinions?

... opinions? ←

15:50:25 <dgarijo> satya: on what context are we discussing this?

Satya Sahoo: on what context are we discussing this? ←

15:50:37 <stain> s/prov/prov-dm/

15:51:23 <dgarijo> Luc: to reach the level of recommendation, we should have at least 2 different approaches that are interoperable

Luc Moreau: to reach the level of recommendation, we should have at least 2 different approaches that are interoperable ←

15:52:32 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q? ←

15:52:36 <Luc> ack sat

Luc Moreau: ack sat ←

15:52:43 <dgarijo> satya: data integration. If we are using RDF for the formato of data integration, are we saying that we are going to define a new set of technologies, or reuse the existant ones?

Satya Sahoo: data integration. If we are using RDF for the formato of data integration, are we saying that we are going to define a new set of technologies, or reuse the existant ones? ←

15:52:46 <satya> q-

Satya Sahoo: q- ←

15:53:06 <dgarijo> khalid: prov language as an interchange format

Khalid Belhajjame: prov language as an interchange format ←

15:53:32 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q? ←

15:53:35 <dgarijo> ... what is expresable with our language that is not with other languages

... what is expresable with our language that is not with other languages ←

15:53:37 <Luc> ack kha

Luc Moreau: ack kha ←

15:53:46 <dgarijo> ... and what are our limitations?

... and what are our limitations? ←

15:53:55 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q? ←

15:54:05 <dgarijo> +q

+q ←

15:54:17 <Luc> ack dg

Luc Moreau: ack dg ←

15:54:30 <satya> sorry I have to leave now, will try to follow up on this discussion over mails

Satya Sahoo: sorry I have to leave now, will try to follow up on this discussion over mails ←

15:55:10 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q? ←

15:55:32 <Zakim> -satya

Zakim IRC Bot: -satya ←

15:55:51 <pgroth_> echo

Paul Groth: echo ←

15:55:53 <Paolo> q+

Paolo Missier: q+ ←

15:55:53 <stain> Zakim, who is making noise?

Stian Soiland-Reyes: Zakim, who is making noise? ←

15:56:00 <pgroth_> no

Paul Groth: no ←

15:56:01 <stain> mute please

Stian Soiland-Reyes: mute please ←

15:56:04 <Zakim> stain, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Luc (46%), dgarijo (45%), ??P38 (49%)

Zakim IRC Bot: stain, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Luc (46%), dgarijo (45%), ??P38 (49%) ←

15:56:20 <stain> dgarijo: could you put it on IRC as well what you said?

Daniel Garijo: could you put it on IRC as well what you said? [ Scribe Assist by Stian Soiland-Reyes ] ←

15:56:50 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q? ←

15:56:54 <Luc> ack pao

Luc Moreau: ack pao ←

15:57:02 <pgroth_> q+

Paul Groth: q+ ←

15:58:00 <dgarijo> dgarijo: we should not restrict ourselves to the vocabularies that model provenance , but also show examples with some tools (Taverna, wings, etc). We should look for potential clients that can adopt our model.

Daniel Garijo: we should not restrict ourselves to the vocabularies that model provenance , but also show examples with some tools (Taverna, wings, etc). We should look for potential clients that can adopt our model. ←

15:58:05 <Luc> ack pgro

Luc Moreau: ack pgro ←

15:58:34 <dgarijo> pgroth: what do we mean by interoperable between 2 serializations?

Paul Groth: what do we mean by interoperable between 2 serializations? ←

15:59:05 <dgarijo> pgroth: how do we check that one serialization has used correctly the other one?

Paul Groth: how do we check that one serialization has used correctly the other one? ←

15:59:09 <ericstephan> q+

Eric Stephan: q+ ←

15:59:12 <dgarijo> ... build test cases

... build test cases ←

15:59:23 <Luc> ack eri

Luc Moreau: ack eri ←

16:00:16 <dgarijo> eric: how introperable are you?

Eric Stephan: how introperable are you? ←

16:00:36 <stain> convert testcase format a1->b1->a2->b2->a3  - compare a2 and a1 manually, automatically compare b2==b1 and a2==a3

Stian Soiland-Reyes: convert testcase format a1->b1->a2->b2->a3 - compare a2 and a1 manually, automatically compare b2==b1 and a2==a3 ←

16:01:04 <Paolo> the design of compliance test cases should be central to the interop effort

Paolo Missier: the design of compliance test cases should be central to the interop effort ←

16:01:41 <dgarijo> eric: seeing R model in owl.

Eric Stephan: seeing R model in owl. ←

16:01:52 <dgarijo> eric: explain how we did the connections

Eric Stephan: explain how we did the connections ←

16:02:00 <dgarijo> ... between 2 serializations.

... between 2 serializations. ←

16:02:22 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q? ←

16:02:29 <dgarijo> Luc:  the integration aspect is crucial, and potentially can be linked to some docs.

Luc Moreau: the integration aspect is crucial, and potentially can be linked to some docs. ←

16:02:50 <pgroth_> we have a task force for this?

Paul Groth: we have a task force for this? ←

16:02:51 <pgroth_> no?

Paul Groth: no? ←

16:02:56 <dgarijo> Luc: paolo, do you have an idea of how the compliance test cases should look like?

Luc Moreau: paolo, do you have an idea of how the compliance test cases should look like? ←

16:02:58 <khalidbelhajjame> Is it just me who think that talking about interoperability between different serializations of the same model is unusual?

Khalid Belhajjame: Is it just me who think that talking about interoperability between different serializations of the same model is unusual? ←

16:03:10 <pgroth_> so maybe we should we start to engage this task force

Paul Groth: so maybe we should we start to engage this task force ←

16:03:31 <stain> I don't think interoperabable X would need to express anything we have in PROV?

Stian Soiland-Reyes: I don't think interoperabable X would need to express anything we have in PROV? ←

16:03:40 <dgarijo> paolo: how do you know that your serialization is compliant with the good one?

Paolo Missier: how do you know that your serialization is compliant with the good one? ←

16:03:43 <Zakim> -JimMcCusker

Zakim IRC Bot: -JimMcCusker ←

16:03:51 <JimMcCusker> gotta run to another call, TTYL

James McCusker: gotta run to another call, TTYL ←

16:03:56 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q? ←

16:04:11 <pgroth_> q+

Paul Groth: q+ ←

16:04:19 <khalidbelhajjame> +q

Khalid Belhajjame: +q ←

16:04:25 <dgarijo> pgroth: task force on this?

Paul Groth: task force on this? ←

16:05:06 <khalidbelhajjame> -q

Khalid Belhajjame: -q ←

16:05:09 <dgarijo> Luc: engage the user task force in this.

Luc Moreau: engage the user task force in this. ←

16:05:13 <Luc> ack pg

Luc Moreau: ack pg ←

16:05:40 <dgarijo> paolo: is it realistic that we develop something to check compliance to the prov model?

Paolo Missier: is it realistic that we develop something to check compliance to the prov model? ←

16:05:41 <khalidbelhajjame> +q

Khalid Belhajjame: +q ←

16:05:54 <khalidbelhajjame> -q

Khalid Belhajjame: -q ←

16:05:56 <stain> could we have something similar to a validator?

Stian Soiland-Reyes: could we have something similar to a validator? ←

16:05:57 <dgarijo> Luc: not our job to give certification of compliance.

Luc Moreau: not our job to give certification of compliance. ←

16:06:00 <stain> it could check the constraints etc

Stian Soiland-Reyes: it could check the constraints etc ←

16:06:08 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes

Zakim IRC Bot: -Curt_Tilmes ←

16:07:06 <dgarijo> khalid: (too much noise) some ideas to check if a model is compliant?

Khalid Belhajjame: (too much noise) some ideas to check if a model is compliant? ←

16:07:28 <dgarijo> @khalid: can you summarize, please? I coulnd't hear you well.

@khalid: can you summarize, please? I coulnd't hear you well. ←

16:08:13 <dgarijo> stian: check that something complies with a set of provenance assertions. It could be syntatic&semantic validation.

Stian Soiland-Reyes: check that something complies with a set of provenance assertions. It could be syntatic&semantic validation. ←

16:08:14 <khalidbelhajjame> I think it is not difficult to check the conformance to the model, but it is harder to check that the system use and use correctly the provenance

Khalid Belhajjame: I think it is not difficult to check the conformance to the model, but it is harder to check that the system use and use correctly the provenance ←

16:08:19 <Paolo> def need to go further than syntax validation

Paolo Missier: def need to go further than syntax validation ←

16:08:32 <dgarijo> @khalid: thanks!

@khalid: thanks! ←

16:08:40 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q? ←

16:08:52 <pgroth_> q+

Paul Groth: q+ ←

16:09:35 <dgarijo> pgroth: those who have proposals of what interoperability should be, raise discussions on the mailing list

Paul Groth: those who have proposals of what interoperability should be, raise discussions on the mailing list ←

16:09:46 <Luc> or keep on editing the wiki page ...

Luc Moreau: or keep on editing the wiki page ... ←

16:10:05 <pgroth_> q-

Paul Groth: q- ←

16:10:27 <dgarijo> Luc: action on Pgroth and Luc to engage the user task force.

Luc Moreau: action on Pgroth and Luc to engage the user task force. ←

16:10:47 <khalidbelhajjame> Ok

Khalid Belhajjame: Ok ←

16:10:50 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q? ←

16:10:55 <dgarijo> Luc: please edit the wiki page if you have further proposals.

Luc Moreau: please edit the wiki page if you have further proposals. ←

16:11:04 <Zakim> -pgroth_

Zakim IRC Bot: -pgroth_ ←

16:11:06 <Zakim> -??P38

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P38 ←

16:11:07 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame

Zakim IRC Bot: -khalidbelhajjame ←

16:11:07 <Luc> exit

Luc Moreau: exit ←

16:11:09 <Zakim> -SamCoppens

Zakim IRC Bot: -SamCoppens ←

16:11:09 <Luc> quit

Luc Moreau: quit ←

16:11:10 <Zakim> -dgarijo

Zakim IRC Bot: -dgarijo ←

16:11:12 <Zakim> -stain

Zakim IRC Bot: -stain ←

16:11:58 <Zakim> -??P4

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P4 ←

16:12:54 <dgarijo> Hi luc

Hi luc ←

16:13:10 <Luc> hi daniel, thanks for scribing, i'll deal with it from now

Luc Moreau: hi daniel, thanks for scribing, i'll deal with it from now ←

16:13:10 <dgarijo> are you going to save the log?

are you going to save the log? ←

16:13:18 <dgarijo> thanks

thanks ←

16:13:25 <dgarijo> see you !

see you ! ←

16:13:29 <Luc> rrsagent, set log public

Luc Moreau: rrsagent, set log public ←

16:13:41 <Luc> rrsagent, draft minutes

Luc Moreau: rrsagent, draft minutes ←

16:13:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/13-prov-minutes.html Luc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/13-prov-minutes.html Luc ←

16:13:42 <Luc> trackbot, end telcon

Luc Moreau: trackbot, end telcon ←

16:13:42 <trackbot> Sorry, Luc, I don't understand 'trackbot, end telcon '. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help

Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, Luc, I don't understand 'trackbot, end telcon '. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help ←

16:25:27 <stain> trackbot, end telcon

(No events recorded for 11 minutes)

Stian Soiland-Reyes: trackbot, end telcon ←

16:25:27 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees ←

16:25:27 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Luc, khalidbelhajjame, dgarijo, pgroth_, stain, Curt_Tilmes,  +1.509.375.aabb, SamCoppens, satya, JimMcCusker, [IPcaller],

Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been Luc, khalidbelhajjame, dgarijo, pgroth_, stain, Curt_Tilmes, +1.509.375.aabb, SamCoppens, satya, JimMcCusker, [IPcaller], ←

16:25:28 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes ←

16:25:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/13-prov-minutes.html trackbot

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/13-prov-minutes.html trackbot ←

16:25:29 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye ←

16:25:29 <RRSAgent> I see no action items

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see no action items ←

16:25:31 <Zakim> ... Yogesh_Simmhan

Zakim IRC Bot: ... Yogesh_Simmhan ←

Formatted by CommonScribe Show Interleaved IRC Text

---