edit

OWL Working Group

Minutes of 28 July 2008

Present
Evan Wallace, Michael Smith, Michael Schneider, Peter Haase, Zhe Wu, Sandro Hawke, Alan Ruttenberg, Ian Horrocks, Boris Motik, Peter Patel-Schneider, Unknown Miroslav, Achille Fokoue, Jonathan Rees, Jie Bao
Remote
Rob Shearer, Bijan Parsia, Uli Sattler, Unknown Carsten, Deborah McGuinness, Unknown Karen
Scribe
Peter Patel-Schneider, Michael Schneider, Boris Motik, Unknown ekw
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions
  1. The value space of xs:float will be a subset of the value space of owl:numberplus (real numbers plus +/- inf, +/- zero, NaN). It would be discrete points in that space, like xs:integer. link
  2. Close ISSUE-132 by replacing "constant" with "literal". link
  3. We'll have a time-on-timeline interpretation of times, with XS date times as literals uses for naming points on that timeline (where the XS time is unambiguous -- it must have a timezone). This is a minimum -- we may do more. link
Topics

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<sandro> Present: Evan, msmith, mschnei, haase, zhe, sandro, ruttenberg, ian, boris, pfps, Miroslav, Achille, JonathanRees, Jie

Scribe problem: the name 'Miroslav' does not match any of the 49 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman Jeff Pan Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Kendall Clark Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Michel Dumontier Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Rob Shearer Sandro Hawke Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu

<sandro> Remote: rob, bijan, uli, Carsten, Deborah, Karen

Scribe problem: the name 'Carsten' does not match any of the 49 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman Jeff Pan Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Kendall Clark Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Michel Dumontier Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Rob Shearer Sandro Hawke Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu

Scribe problem: the name 'Karen' does not match any of the 49 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman Jeff Pan Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Kendall Clark Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Michel Dumontier Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Rob Shearer Sandro Hawke Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu

12:49:29 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/28-owl-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/28-owl-irc

12:49:35 <pfps> zakim, this is owl

Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, this is owl

12:49:35 <Zakim> pfps, I see SW_OWL()8:00AM in the schedule but not yet started.  Perhaps you mean "this will be owl".

Zakim IRC Bot: pfps, I see SW_OWL()8:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be owl".

12:49:47 <pfps> zakim, this will be owl

Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, this will be owl

12:49:47 <Zakim> ok, pfps; I see SW_OWL()8:00AM scheduled to start 49 minutes ago

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, pfps; I see SW_OWL()8:00AM scheduled to start 49 minutes ago

12:55:08 <pfps> zakim, who is on the phone

(No events recorded for 5 minutes)

Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, who is on the phone

12:55:08 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', pfps

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'who is on the phone', pfps

12:56:29 <IanH> RRSAgent, make records public

Ian Horrocks: RRSAgent, make records public

12:58:35 <Zakim> SW_OWL()8:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_OWL()8:00AM has now started

12:58:37 <Zakim> + +1.617.253.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.617.253.aaaa

13:00:46 <Zakim> +??P7

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P7

13:00:50 <bparsia> zakim, ??p7 is me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, ??p7 is me

13:00:50 <Zakim> +bparsia; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +bparsia; got it

13:00:53 <bparsia> zakim, mute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me

13:00:53 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted

13:01:21 <bparsia> omit: I'm in
13:01:24 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me

13:01:24 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted

13:01:50 <bparsia> zakim, mute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me

13:01:50 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted

13:03:26 <pfps> ScribeNick: pfps

(Scribe set to Peter Patel-Schneider)

13:06:22 <pfps> Topic: Welcome, local arrangements, introductions (9-9:15)

1. Welcome, local arrangements, introductions (9-9:15)

13:11:10 <pfps> alanr: dinner possibilities - black sheep / elephant walk

Alan Ruttenberg: dinner possibilities - black sheep / elephant walk

13:12:08 <pfps> alanr: elephant by acclamation

Alan Ruttenberg: elephant by acclamation

13:12:45 <pfps> alanr: other local arrangements?

Alan Ruttenberg: other local arrangements?

13:12:57 <pfps> alanr: leaving times

Alan Ruttenberg: leaving times

13:13:21 <pfps> pfps: 5ish

Peter Patel-Schneider: 5ish

13:13:34 <sandro> peter -- taxi south station 5ish

Sandro Hawke: peter -- taxi south station 5ish

13:13:53 <sandro> evan, michael -- taxi to airport 5ish

Sandro Hawke: evan, michael -- taxi to airport 5ish

13:15:41 <pfps> alanr: scribing?

Alan Ruttenberg: scribing?

13:16:10 <pfps> datatype session - m_schneider

datatype session - m_schneider

13:16:17 <pfps> annotations - boris

annotations - boris

13:16:27 <pfps> profiles - evan

profiles - evan

13:17:42 <pfps> omit: introductions
13:18:07 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

13:20:49 <bijan> omit: Fine
13:21:19 <bijan> zakim, unmute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me

13:21:19 <Zakim> sorry, bijan, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, bijan, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you

13:21:26 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call?

13:21:26 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.617.253.aaaa, bparsia (muted)

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see +1.617.253.aaaa, bparsia (muted)

13:21:40 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me

13:21:40 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted

13:21:54 <bparsia> zakim, mute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me

13:21:54 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted

13:22:43 <pfps> alanr: schedule change - move datatypes earlier - no complaints voiced

Alan Ruttenberg: schedule change - move datatypes earlier - no complaints voiced

13:22:44 <sandro> Jie is missing

Sandro Hawke: Jie is missing

13:23:03 <pfps> alanr: we may start on datatypes early

Alan Ruttenberg: we may start on datatypes early

13:23:23 <pfps> alanr: karen meyers may come for discussion on profile names

Alan Ruttenberg: karen meyers may come for discussion on profile names

13:23:41 <pfps> alanr: tomorrow's schedule is on tomorrow

Alan Ruttenberg: tomorrow's schedule is on tomorrow

13:24:14 <pfps> Topic: Roadmap, Publication Schedule

2. Roadmap, Publication Schedule

13:24:25 <pfps> alanr presents some slides

alanr presents some slides

13:24:35 <pfps> alanr: where are we (in schedule)

Alan Ruttenberg: where are we (in schedule)

13:24:57 <pfps> alanr: 9.5 months in

Alan Ruttenberg: 9.5 months in

13:25:07 <pfps> alanr: when can we do last call (on what documents)

Alan Ruttenberg: when can we do last call (on what documents)

13:25:59 <pfps> alanr: try for last call decision on core documents at next F2F (late Oct)

Alan Ruttenberg: try for last call decision on core documents at next F2F (late Oct)

13:26:11 <pfps> alanr: last call documents published immediately after

Alan Ruttenberg: last call documents published immediately after

13:26:24 <bparsia> For the record, I've delayed working on the primer (a bit) in order to let the core documents to settle. I could synch or I could stagger its last call. (Requirement document will need some primer lovin' as well.)

Bijan Parsia: For the record, I've delayed working on the primer (a bit) in order to let the core documents to settle. I could synch or I could stagger its last call. (Requirement document will need some primer lovin' as well.)

13:26:51 <pfps> ianh: we want review before F2F so the F2F would be a vote on the documents as reviewed

Ian Horrocks: we want review before F2F so the F2F would be a vote on the documents as reviewed

13:27:16 <pfps> sandro: last call means that we have closed all relevant issues

Sandro Hawke: last call means that we have closed all relevant issues

13:27:47 <pfps> sandro: we could have multiple possibilities ready beforehand

Sandro Hawke: we could have multiple possibilities ready beforehand

13:28:14 <pfps> ianh: why not beforehand?

Ian Horrocks: why not beforehand?

13:28:26 <pfps> sandro: some issues may need a final F2F discussion

Sandro Hawke: some issues may need a final F2F discussion

13:28:41 <pfps> m_schneider: sounds realistic

Michael Schneider: sounds realistic

13:28:56 <bparsia> xml syntax too, would be nice

Bijan Parsia: xml syntax too, would be nice

13:29:11 <pfps> alanr: core documents = syntax, semantics, full semantics, RDF mapping, profiles

Alan Ruttenberg: core documents = syntax, semantics, full semantics, RDF mapping, profiles

13:29:36 <pfps> alanr: goal try to close issues on these by F2F4

Alan Ruttenberg: goal try to close issues on these by F2F4

13:29:49 <pfps> alanr: full semantics - try for WD in 3 weeks

Alan Ruttenberg: full semantics - try for WD in 3 weeks

13:30:50 <bparsia> q+

Bijan Parsia: q+

13:30:50 <pfps> alanr: requirements - try for first WD in 4 weeks

Alan Ruttenberg: requirements - try for first WD in 4 weeks

13:31:09 <pfps> alanr: quick guide - try for first WD in ? weeks

Alan Ruttenberg: quick guide - try for first WD in ? weeks

13:31:28 <bparsia> q-

Bijan Parsia: q-

13:31:37 <pfps> alanr: WD for other documents if there is significant change

Alan Ruttenberg: WD for other documents if there is significant change

13:31:51 <pfps> alanr: this means syntax (at least)

Alan Ruttenberg: this means syntax (at least)

13:32:10 <pfps> msmith: what about test document

Michael Smith: what about test document

13:32:38 <pfps> alanr: need to come up with estimate - need time in F2F (45min?)

Alan Ruttenberg: need to come up with estimate - need time in F2F (45min?)

13:32:44 <pfps> msmith: 45 min seems OK

Michael Smith: 45 min seems OK

13:33:20 <pfps> alanr: any comments?

Alan Ruttenberg: any comments?

13:33:30 <pfps> sandro: this requires rapid progress

Sandro Hawke: this requires rapid progress

13:33:48 <pfps> alanr: we may be "over the hump" on many thorny issues

Alan Ruttenberg: we may be "over the hump" on many thorny issues

13:34:13 <pfps> ianh: there are a few sticky issues that have been hanging around

Ian Horrocks: there are a few sticky issues that have been hanging around

13:34:32 <pfps> ianh: if we succeed on progressing in these then we should be OK

Ian Horrocks: if we succeed on progressing in these then we should be OK

13:34:50 <pfps> alanr: there is writing involved (e.g., in profile)

Alan Ruttenberg: there is writing involved (e.g., in profile)

13:35:19 <pfps> ianh: we need to have WG members who can do review step up and do it

Ian Horrocks: we need to have WG members who can do review step up and do it

13:35:52 <pfps> m_schneider: what does LC mean?

Michael Schneider: what does LC mean?

13:36:09 <pfps> ianh: LC documents mean that we think the document is done

Ian Horrocks: LC documents mean that we think the document is done

13:36:29 <bparsia> LC documents mean we think the *technical design* is done

Bijan Parsia: LC documents mean we think the *technical design* is done

13:36:34 <bparsia> Editorial changes post LC are fine

Bijan Parsia: Editorial changes post LC are fine

13:37:01 <pfps> sandro: polishing can be done after LC, particularly in response to comments

Sandro Hawke: polishing can be done after LC, particularly in response to comments

13:37:13 <bparsia> Example of kosher LC change: We change all the examples in the syntax document. Or we reorganize it

Bijan Parsia: Example of kosher LC change: We change all the examples in the syntax document. Or we reorganize it

13:37:36 <pfps> m_schneider: LC for profiles can be without polish

Michael Schneider: LC for profiles can be without polish

13:37:46 <bparsia> Example of nonkoser LC change: We change floats from being non-disjoint to disjoint with owl:number

Bijan Parsia: Example of nonkoser LC change: We change floats from being non-disjoint to disjoint with owl:number

13:38:01 <bparsia> (Where kosher means doesn't require another LC round.)

Bijan Parsia: (Where kosher means doesn't require another LC round.)

13:38:03 <pfps> alanr: this is possible, but not desirable, we should try for readable documents

Alan Ruttenberg: this is possible, but not desirable, we should try for readable documents

13:38:28 <pfps> msmith: some polish can be contentious

Michael Smith: some polish can be contentious

13:38:35 <bparsia> q+

Bijan Parsia: q+

13:39:02 <pfps> ianh: polishing after LC should be in response to comments - other polish is not desirable

Ian Horrocks: polishing after LC should be in response to comments - other polish is not desirable

13:39:35 <pfps> m_schneider: this means that feature freeze is end of September

Michael Schneider: this means that feature freeze is end of September

13:39:45 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

13:39:45 <pfps> ianh: yes, but we may be close

Ian Horrocks: yes, but we may be close

13:39:56 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me

13:39:56 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted

13:40:39 <pfps> bparsia: what triggers a return to LC - editorial change is generally not a problem

Bijan Parsia: what triggers a return to LC - editorial change is generally not a problem

13:41:02 <pfps> alanr: what is grounds for objection - let's try not to push the envelope

Alan Ruttenberg: what is grounds for objection - let's try not to push the envelope

13:41:26 <bparsia> zakim, mute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me

13:41:26 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted

13:41:27 <pfps> bparsia: let's do our best, but significant delay into LC for editorial work is not desirable

Bijan Parsia: let's do our best, but significant delay into LC for editorial work is not desirable

13:41:41 <pfps> m_schneider: what are the stages of recommendation

Michael Schneider: what are the stages of recommendation

13:41:55 <pfps> alanr: closer to the end, more people look at us

Alan Ruttenberg: closer to the end, more people look at us

13:42:05 <pfps> sandro: LC = we are done, everyone look at it

Sandro Hawke: LC = we are done, everyone look at it

13:42:10 <bparsia> Getting to CR will update the implementations. We want that sooner rather than later

Bijan Parsia: Getting to CR will update the implementations. We want that sooner rather than later

13:42:19 <pfps> sandro: CR = people should do implementations

Sandro Hawke: CR = people should do implementations

13:42:34 <pfps> sandro: PR = waiting for stamp of approval

Sandro Hawke: PR = waiting for stamp of approval

13:42:53 <pfps> sandro: R = stamped, signed, sealed, and DONE

Sandro Hawke: R = stamped, signed, sealed, and DONE

13:42:57 <bparsia> We can waste enormous amounts of time painting the bikeshed, i.e., debating but not interestingly improving things. I'd rather not burn people out, more :)

Bijan Parsia: We can waste enormous amounts of time painting the bikeshed, i.e., debating but not interestingly improving things. I'd rather not burn people out, more :)

13:43:41 <pfps> alanr: now switch to datatypes (early)

Alan Ruttenberg: now switch to datatypes (early)

13:44:02 <pfps> Topic: Datatypes

3. Datatypes

13:44:17 <pfps> alanr: what is the current status?

Alan Ruttenberg: what is the current status?

13:44:40 <pfps> alanr: last teleconference had quite a bit of consensus

Alan Ruttenberg: last teleconference had quite a bit of consensus

13:44:59 <bparsia> omit: Is there still talking?
13:45:04 <pfps> alanr: see http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/meeting/2008-07-16#Normative_datatypes

Alan Ruttenberg: see http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/meeting/2008-07-16#Normative_datatypes

13:45:08 <bparsia> omit: Ok, there we are
13:45:52 <pfps> see also http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0306.html

see also http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0306.html

13:46:01 <bparsia> This is number+ right?

Bijan Parsia: This is number+ right?

13:46:10 <bparsia> Floats not integer

Bijan Parsia: Floats not integer

13:46:38 <pfps> alanr: number+ is reals plus NaN, +inf, -inf, +0, -0

Alan Ruttenberg: number+ is reals plus NaN, +inf, -inf, +0, -0

13:47:19 <pfps> evan: the mapping from lexical to value appears to be missing

Evan Wallace: the mapping from lexical to value appears to be missing

13:47:55 <pfps> boris: value space is the thing, lexical space is how they are written

Boris Motik: value space is the thing, lexical space is how they are written

13:48:10 <pfps> evan: but what is the mapping?

Evan Wallace: but what is the mapping?

13:48:45 <pfps> alanr: see functions and relation documents - there are coercion functions there - just use these as appropriate

Alan Ruttenberg: see functions and relation documents - there are coercion functions there - just use these as appropriate

13:49:01 <pfps> alanr: thus we have a value space of the number line

Alan Ruttenberg: thus we have a value space of the number line

13:49:29 <pfps> evan: but how is the mapping defined

Evan Wallace: but how is the mapping defined

13:50:09 <pfps> alanr: we are mixing a bit, xsd:integer is both on the lexical and value sides

Alan Ruttenberg: we are mixing a bit, xsd:integer is both on the lexical and value sides

13:50:43 <pfps> boris: RDF literals are string (e.g., 123) and URI (e.g., xsd:integer)

Boris Motik: RDF literals are string (e.g., 123) and URI (e.g., xsd:integer)

13:51:02 <pfps> boris: but this URI is *not* the datatype!

Boris Motik: but this URI is *not* the datatype!

13:51:29 <pfps> alanr: can we have a better presentation?

Alan Ruttenberg: can we have a better presentation?

13:51:35 <Zakim> +??P3

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P3

13:51:37 <pfps> boris: be explicit

Boris Motik: be explicit

13:51:47 <pfps> ianh: we have to go this way because of RDF

Ian Horrocks: we have to go this way because of RDF

13:52:15 <IanH> zakim, who is here?

Ian Horrocks: zakim, who is here?

13:52:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.617.253.aaaa, bparsia (muted), ??P3

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see +1.617.253.aaaa, bparsia (muted), ??P3

13:52:16 <Zakim> On IRC I see rob, Rinke, Achille, alanr, Zhe, msmith, pha, bmotik, ekw, m_schnei, bparsia, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, pfps, ewallace, sandro, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see rob, Rinke, Achille, alanr, Zhe, msmith, pha, bmotik, ekw, m_schnei, bparsia, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, pfps, ewallace, sandro, trackbot

13:52:36 <pfps> alanr: can we have all value spaces in owl: and lexical spaces in xsd:

Alan Ruttenberg: can we have all value spaces in owl: and lexical spaces in xsd:

13:52:50 <IanH> Is it the case that ??P3 is you Rob?

Ian Horrocks: Is it the case that ??P3 is you Rob?

13:53:08 <IanH> yes

Ian Horrocks: yes

13:53:27 <IanH> Uli -- are you on the phone?

Ian Horrocks: Uli -- are you on the phone?

13:53:34 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

13:53:42 <bparsia> q-

Bijan Parsia: q-

13:54:02 <pfps> jonathan: worry about losing information from RDF to OWL

Jonathan Rees: worry about losing information from RDF to OWL

13:54:05 <Zakim> +??P4

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P4

13:54:17 <rob> zakim, =??P4 is me

Rob Shearer: zakim, =??P4 is me

13:54:17 <Zakim> sorry, rob, I do not recognize a party named '=??P4'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, rob, I do not recognize a party named '=??P4'

13:54:29 <rob> zakim, +??P4 is me

Rob Shearer: zakim, +??P4 is me

13:54:29 <Zakim> sorry, rob, I do not recognize a party named '+??P4'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, rob, I do not recognize a party named '+??P4'

13:54:35 <IanH> zakim, ??P4 is rob

Ian Horrocks: zakim, ??P4 is rob

13:54:35 <Zakim> +rob; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +rob; got it

13:54:38 <pfps> boris: just need to say how to interpret URI as a constant URI and URI as a value space

Boris Motik: just need to say how to interpret URI as a constant URI and URI as a value space

13:54:45 <rob> zakim, mute me

Rob Shearer: zakim, mute me

13:54:45 <Zakim> rob should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: rob should now be muted

13:54:48 <bparsia> What's the worry about losing information please?

Bijan Parsia: What's the worry about losing information please?

13:54:48 <IanH> zakim, who is here?

Ian Horrocks: zakim, who is here?

13:54:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.617.253.aaaa, bparsia (muted), ??P3, rob (muted)

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see +1.617.253.aaaa, bparsia (muted), ??P3, rob (muted)

13:54:49 <Zakim> On IRC I see uli, rob, Rinke, Achille, alanr, Zhe, msmith, pha, bmotik, ekw, m_schnei, bparsia, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, pfps, ewallace, sandro, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see uli, rob, Rinke, Achille, alanr, Zhe, msmith, pha, bmotik, ekw, m_schnei, bparsia, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, pfps, ewallace, sandro, trackbot

13:55:06 <pfps> sandro: datatype is a triple - we need to point to the explicit bit of this

Sandro Hawke: datatype is a triple - we need to point to the explicit bit of this

13:55:11 <uli> zakim, ??P3 is me

Uli Sattler: zakim, ??P3 is me

13:55:11 <Zakim> +uli; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +uli; got it

13:55:14 <uli> q-

Uli Sattler: q-

13:55:26 <IanH> ack ??P3

Ian Horrocks: ack ??P3

13:55:36 <pfps> boris: yes, the document can be structured in this way

Boris Motik: yes, the document can be structured in this way

13:55:39 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

13:56:09 <pfps> achille: what is relationship between owl: value spaces and xsd: value spaces

Achille Fokoue: what is relationship between owl: value spaces and xsd: value spaces

13:56:39 <pfps> achille: should we be clearer in comparison with xsd

Achille Fokoue: should we be clearer in comparison with xsd

13:56:54 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

13:57:00 <pfps> achille: if we diverge from xsd we need to be very clear where and how

Achille Fokoue: if we diverge from xsd we need to be very clear where and how

13:57:16 <bparsia> So this isn't too hard, right? xsd:decimal value space is a subset of OWL number's value space, so is xsd:float, etc.

Bijan Parsia: So this isn't too hard, right? xsd:decimal value space is a subset of OWL number's value space, so is xsd:float, etc.

13:57:17 <bparsia> ?

Bijan Parsia: ?

13:57:57 <sandro> pfps: We use the TERM "value space" the same as XSD does, but we have a DIFFERENT value space than XML Schema does, for some datatypes.

Peter Patel-Schneider: We use the TERM "value space" the same as XSD does, but we have a DIFFERENT value space than XML Schema does, for some datatypes. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

13:58:04 <pfps> alanr: we have a different set of value spaces

Alan Ruttenberg: we have a different set of value spaces

13:58:23 <sandro> s/Peter/pfps/

Sandro Hawke: s/Peter/pfps/ (warning: replacement failed)

13:58:35 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

13:58:37 <pfps> boris: we are very close to how they do it

Boris Motik: we are very close to how they do it

13:58:41 <rob> I'm having trouble hearing, but I don't see why OWL should use XSD at *all* for its "value spaces".

Rob Shearer: I'm having trouble hearing, but I don't see why OWL should use XSD at *all* for its "value spaces".

13:59:17 <IanH> Uli -- we can hear you

Ian Horrocks: Uli -- we can hear you

13:59:29 <IanH> Or we could until someone muted you

Ian Horrocks: Or we could until someone muted you

13:59:41 <pfps> boris: we work differently from xsd - xsd is about transmission we are about use

Boris Motik: we work differently from xsd - xsd is about transmission we are about use

14:00:38 <rob> q+

Rob Shearer: q+

14:00:54 <pfps> achille: we need to be careful - we are changing value spaces

Achille Fokoue: we need to be careful - we are changing value spaces

14:01:18 <pfps> achille: we want to be able to use DB and XSD stuff

Achille Fokoue: we want to be able to use DB and XSD stuff

14:01:36 <pfps> ianh: we need to separate discussion of technical design and discussion of terminology

Ian Horrocks: we need to separate discussion of technical design and discussion of terminology

14:02:02 <rob> q-

Rob Shearer: q-

14:02:25 <pfps> ianh: any problems with underlying technical design

Ian Horrocks: any problems with underlying technical design

14:02:50 <rob> q+

Rob Shearer: q+

14:03:03 <pfps> msmith: not sure whether technical or terminology - we have value spaces that encompass xsd, right

Michael Smith: not sure whether technical or terminology - we have value spaces that encompass xsd, right

14:03:24 <rob> q-

Rob Shearer: q-

14:03:27 <pfps> ianh: this is a communication issue

Ian Horrocks: this is a communication issue

14:03:37 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

14:04:04 <pfps> m_schneider: what are the differences between xsd and owl?

Michael Schneider: what are the differences between xsd and owl?

14:04:18 <rob> zakim, unmute me

Rob Shearer: zakim, unmute me

14:04:18 <Zakim> rob should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: rob should no longer be muted

14:04:19 <pfps> sandro: is there an incompatibility?

Sandro Hawke: is there an incompatibility?

14:04:29 <rob> q+

Rob Shearer: q+

14:05:01 <sandro> sandro: I want to know what incompatibilities there are before deciding whether the design is okay.

Sandro Hawke: I want to know what incompatibilities there are before deciding whether the design is okay. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

14:05:25 <pfps> rob: xsd is just a serialization, we need something more conceptual

Rob Shearer: xsd is just a serialization, we need something more conceptual

14:06:07 <sandro> Alan: in xsd,  "2"^^int and "2"^^float are distinct.    But in OWL we want them to be the same.

Alan Ruttenberg: in xsd, "2"^^int and "2"^^float are distinct. But in OWL we want them to be the same. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

14:06:10 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

14:06:18 <pfps> alanr: xsd has disjoint value spaces (e.g., "2"^^xsd:integer and "2.0"^xsd:float)  we don't

Alan Ruttenberg: xsd has disjoint value spaces (e.g., "2"^^xsd:integer and "2.0"^xsd:float) we don't

14:06:36 <pfps> boris: differences - owl:number+ is a new value space

Boris Motik: differences - owl:number+ is a new value space

14:06:50 <sandro> boris: (1) We have owl:number as a super value space.   (2) XML schema has float disjoint from double disjount from number.

Boris Motik: (1) We have owl:number as a super value space. (2) XML schema has float disjoint from double disjount from number. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

14:07:11 <pfps> boris: differences - disjointness of integer, float, double (xsd yes, owl no)

Boris Motik: differences - disjointness of integer, float, double (xsd yes, owl no)

14:07:32 <pfps> boris: query in xml schema may diverge from us

Boris Motik: query in xml schema may diverge from us

14:07:38 <sandro> boris: So the same query in XML schema will give fewer answers -- since it wont know "5"^^float and "5"^^double are the same number.

Boris Motik: So the same query in XML schema will give fewer answers -- since it wont know "5"^^float and "5"^^double are the same number. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

14:07:39 <pfps> boris: that's it

Boris Motik: that's it

14:08:18 <pfps> rob: rationale for xsd is serialization thus disjointness

Rob Shearer: rationale for xsd is serialization thus disjointness

14:08:27 <bparsia> I believe that double and float is disjoint in order to type functions in xpath and xquery

Bijan Parsia: I believe that double and float is disjoint in order to type functions in xpath and xquery

14:08:41 <sandro> rob: XS needs this distinction.   If it has a 5, it has to know whether to serialize our "5"^^float or "5"^^double.       But this isn't to constrain other specs/apps.

Rob Shearer: XS needs this distinction. If it has a 5, it has to know whether to serialize our "5"^^float or "5"^^double. But this isn't to constrain other specs/apps. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

14:08:55 <pfps> rob: new spec says that use of xsd can do what is needed

Rob Shearer: new spec says that use of xsd can do what is needed

14:08:56 <rob> zakim, mute me

Rob Shearer: zakim, mute me

14:08:56 <Zakim> rob should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: rob should now be muted

14:09:10 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

14:09:12 <bparsia> q+

Bijan Parsia: q+

14:09:14 <sandro> ack rob

Sandro Hawke: ack rob

14:09:16 <rob> q-

Rob Shearer: q-

14:09:27 <rob> zakim, mute me

Rob Shearer: zakim, mute me

14:09:28 <Zakim> rob should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: rob should now be muted

14:09:47 <rob> zakim, who is on the phone

Rob Shearer: zakim, who is on the phone

14:09:47 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', rob

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'who is on the phone', rob

14:10:05 <IanH> zakim, who is on the phone?

Ian Horrocks: zakim, who is on the phone?

14:10:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.617.253.aaaa, bparsia (muted), uli (muted), rob (muted)

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see +1.617.253.aaaa, bparsia (muted), uli (muted), rob (muted)

14:10:05 <sandro> Achille: At IBM we'll need to be very clear about the story on these datatypes between OWL and XS

Achille Fokoue: At IBM we'll need to be very clear about the story on these datatypes between OWL and XS [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

14:10:06 <pfps> achille: my concern is how to sell this (within IBM) - divergences in querying, migration paths

Achille Fokoue: my concern is how to sell this (within IBM) - divergences in querying, migration paths

14:10:32 <m_schnei> Achille: IBM has big investments in XML

Achille Fokoue: IBM has big investments in XML [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ]

14:10:49 <bparsia> queue?

Bijan Parsia: queue?

14:11:30 <pfps> boris: xquery is a huge spec - type casting might be built in

Boris Motik: xquery is a huge spec - type casting might be built in

14:11:44 <bparsia> http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery/#id-type-promotion-and-operator-mapping

Bijan Parsia: http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery/#id-type-promotion-and-operator-mapping

14:11:49 <pfps> boris: xquery is syntactic - so it needs type coercion

Boris Motik: xquery is syntactic - so it needs type coercion

14:11:59 <pfps> boris: owl is semantic - things are either the same or different

Boris Motik: owl is semantic - things are either the same or different

14:12:06 <sandro> boris: there is no such thing as type coercion in OWL.  The model theory says the values are the same or are different.

Boris Motik: there is no such thing as type coercion in OWL. The model theory says the values are the same or are different. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

14:12:09 <bparsia> zakim, ack me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, ack me

14:12:09 <Zakim> unmuting bparsia

Zakim IRC Bot: unmuting bparsia

14:12:10 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue

Zakim IRC Bot: I see no one on the speaker queue

14:12:15 <sandro> ack bparsia

Sandro Hawke: ack bparsia

14:12:20 <pfps> achille: OK, communication is important, though

Achille Fokoue: OK, communication is important, though

14:12:50 <sandro> bparsia: look at MathML here.  It might be better to borrow from them -- more about Math than about Data.

Bijan Parsia: look at MathML here. It might be better to borrow from them -- more about Math than about Data. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

14:12:59 <pfps> bparsia: could we use a different terminology (e.g., MathML)?

Bijan Parsia: could we use a different terminology (e.g., MathML)?

14:13:27 <msmith> I think that I found the relevant bit from xquery http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery/#id-value-comparisons

Michael Smith: I think that I found the relevant bit from xquery http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery/#id-value-comparisons

14:13:30 <pfps> bparsia: maybe we could use mathml:real, for example

Bijan Parsia: maybe we could use mathml:real, for example

14:14:23 <pfps> achille: I can check the relationship between xquery and owl

Achille Fokoue: I can check the relationship between xquery and owl

14:14:30 <bparsia> I didn't understand the comment about "lack of type coercion" in owl

Bijan Parsia: I didn't understand the comment about "lack of type coercion" in owl

14:14:53 <bparsia> We can easily have operators that "coerce" (i.e., predicates with union types as arguments)

Bijan Parsia: We can easily have operators that "coerce" (i.e., predicates with union types as arguments)

14:15:10 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

14:15:22 <pfps> m_schneider: two differences - owl:number+ is a new value space, non-disjointness of integer, float, double

Michael Schneider: two differences - owl:number+ is a new value space, non-disjointness of integer, float, double

14:16:23 <rob> That sounds like a procedural description of our proposed semantics.

Rob Shearer: That sounds like a procedural description of our proposed semantics.

14:16:24 <pfps> boris: section 3.5.1 of xquery - type coercion - seems to be wrong for our purposes

Boris Motik: section 3.5.1 of xquery - type coercion - seems to be wrong for our purposes

14:16:25 <msmith> type promotion in xquery http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery/#dt-type-promotion

Michael Smith: type promotion in xquery http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery/#dt-type-promotion

14:16:44 <sandro> ACTION: Achille to develop list of possible conflicts between XML Schema datatypes and OWL datatypes with valuespace reasoning

ACTION: Achille to develop list of possible conflicts between XML Schema datatypes and OWL datatypes with valuespace reasoning

14:16:45 <trackbot> Created ACTION-172 - Develop list of possible conflicts between XML Schema datatypes and OWL datatypes with valuespace reasoning [on Achille Fokoue - due 2008-08-04].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-172 - Develop list of possible conflicts between XML Schema datatypes and OWL datatypes with valuespace reasoning [on Achille Fokoue - due 2008-08-04].

14:17:28 <pfps> boris: if owl has disjoint integer and float, then you can't have a float value for a property whose range is integer

Boris Motik: if owl has disjoint integer and float, then you can't have a float value for a property whose range is integer

14:17:32 <bparsia> zakim, mute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me

14:17:32 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted

14:17:42 <pfps> jonathan: what about union types?

Jonathan Rees: what about union types?

14:18:16 <sandro> jrees: I think you can make it work by having valuespace as pair, and semantics are in operator, like in many programming languages.  I'm not saying this would be a good way to do things.

Jonathan Rees: I think you can make it work by having valuespace as pair, and semantics are in operator, like in many programming languages. I'm not saying this would be a good way to do things. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

14:18:37 <pfps> boris: example - range of P is xsd:float - foo has a value for P that belongs to xsd:integer - this is a contradiction

Boris Motik: example - range of P is xsd:float - foo has a value for P that belongs to xsd:integer - this is a contradiction

14:19:03 <pfps> boris: if float and integer are disjoint

Boris Motik: if float and integer are disjoint

14:19:32 <sandro> jrees: Is it a requirement that this is consistent:  "range xsd:float" and a value which is "5"^^int  ?

Jonathan Rees: Is it a requirement that this is consistent: "range xsd:float" and a value which is "5"^^int ? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

14:19:41 <sandro> (general sense of yes.)

Sandro Hawke: (general sense of yes.)

14:19:44 <pfps> alanr: thus the integer 5 should be the same as "5.0"^^xsd:float

Alan Ruttenberg: thus the integer 5 should be the same as "5.0"^^xsd:float

14:20:05 <rob> I'd still very much prefer if users couldn't say "range xsd:float"

Rob Shearer: I'd still very much prefer if users couldn't say "range xsd:float"

14:20:31 <sandro> +1 rob

Sandro Hawke: +1 rob

14:20:31 <pfps> [considerable discussion]

[considerable discussion]

14:20:54 <pfps> alanr: xquery promotion is to float - this may not be the same as the owl proposal

Alan Ruttenberg: xquery promotion is to float - this may not be the same as the owl proposal

14:20:54 <jar> I heard: It is a requirement that "5"^^xsd:integer  has type  [not sure what the "has type" predicate is]  xsd:float

Jonathan Rees: I heard: It is a requirement that "5"^^xsd:integer has type [not sure what the "has type" predicate is] xsd:float

14:20:59 <rob> I don't understand the notion "equal as floats"

Rob Shearer: I don't understand the notion "equal as floats"

14:22:05 <pfps> boris: IEEE comparison of floats and doubles is done as if they were exact real numbers

Boris Motik: IEEE comparison of floats and doubles is done as if they were exact real numbers

14:22:16 <msmith> sandro, http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/TestCase:Datatype-Primitive-Disjointness-001

Michael Smith: sandro, http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/TestCase:Datatype-Primitive-Disjointness-001

14:22:28 <rob> from IEEE 7.5.4 section 5.7 : It shall be possible to compare floating-point numbers in all supported formats, even if the operands’ formats differ.

Rob Shearer: from IEEE 7.5.4 section 5.7 : It shall be possible to compare floating-point numbers in all supported formats, even if the operands’ formats differ.

14:22:28 <rob> Comparisons are exact and never overflow nor underflow.

Rob Shearer: Comparisons are exact and never overflow nor underflow.

14:22:45 <rob> </quote>

Rob Shearer: </quote>

14:22:56 <pfps> achille: run this through some code

Achille Fokoue: run this through some code

14:23:35 <pfps> achille: galax is a reference implementation

Achille Fokoue: galax is a reference implementation

14:23:39 <sandro> ACTION: Alan to investigate Boris' IEEE reference, re linking floating point to real numbers

ACTION: Alan to investigate Boris' IEEE reference, re linking floating point to real numbers

14:23:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-173 - Investigate Boris' IEEE reference, re linking floating point to real numbers [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2008-08-04].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-173 - Investigate Boris' IEEE reference, re linking floating point to real numbers [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2008-08-04].

14:23:49 <pfps> alanr: things to check - owl:number+ - we seem to be OK

Alan Ruttenberg: things to check - owl:number+ - we seem to be OK

14:24:12 <pfps> alanr: minimum conformance - 64 bit integer - decimal - something that looks OK

Alan Ruttenberg: minimum conformance - 64 bit integer - decimal - something that looks OK

14:24:19 <rob> q+

Rob Shearer: q+

14:24:37 <pfps> alanr: float and double are currently real ranges

Alan Ruttenberg: float and double are currently real ranges

14:24:46 <rob> zakim, unmute me

Rob Shearer: zakim, unmute me

14:24:46 <Zakim> rob should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: rob should no longer be muted

14:24:47 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

14:24:50 <pfps> alanr: internationalized strings

Alan Ruttenberg: internationalized strings

14:25:07 <rob> zakim, mute me

Rob Shearer: zakim, mute me

14:25:07 <Zakim> rob should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: rob should now be muted

14:25:09 <rob> q-

Rob Shearer: q-

14:25:18 <pfps> rob: the issue is whether xsd:float is a value space

Rob Shearer: the issue is whether xsd:float is a value space

14:25:25 <jar> My point was: There are two coherent designs, and maybe a choice has been made between then (I am coming into the middle of the conversation). In one design, the float/integer distinction is lost via the interpretation function - models don't distinguish them. The other coherent design would be to preserve the float/integer distinction in the interpretation function somehow, and then lose...

Jonathan Rees: My point was: There are two coherent designs, and maybe a choice has been made between then (I am coming into the middle of the conversation). In one design, the float/integer distinction is lost via the interpretation function - models don't distinguish them. The other coherent design would be to preserve the float/integer distinction in the interpretation function somehow, and then lose...

14:25:26 <jar> ...the distinction in the comparison predicates (etc.). I just want to make sure everyone understands the consequences of this choice.

Jonathan Rees: ...the distinction in the comparison predicates (etc.). I just want to make sure everyone understands the consequences of this choice.

14:25:45 <pfps> alanr: boolean and hexdecimal

Alan Ruttenberg: boolean and hexdecimal

14:25:50 <pfps> alanr: date/time

Alan Ruttenberg: date/time

14:26:38 <pfps> alanr: issues - Issue87, Issue71, Issue127, Issue132, floats

Alan Ruttenberg: issues - ISSUE-87, ISSUE-71, ISSUE-127, ISSUE-132, floats

14:26:52 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

14:27:14 <pfps> m_schneider: why the change from owl:real to owl:number?

Michael Schneider: why the change from owl:real to owl:number?

14:27:21 <pfps> boris: people liked it

Boris Motik: people liked it

14:27:29 <pfps> m_schneider: but what about complex numbers, then?

Michael Schneider: but what about complex numbers, then?

14:27:37 <sandro> m_schnei: The term "owl:number" misled me into thinking I could use it as a base for Complex Numbers

Michael Schneider: The term "owl:number" misled me into thinking I could use it as a base for Complex Numbers [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

14:28:03 <pfps> alanr: MEETING ISSUE - owl:number vs owl:real

Alan Ruttenberg: MEETING ISSUE - owl:number vs owl:real

14:28:21 <Zhe> maybe owl:realNumber?

Zhe Wu: maybe owl:realNumber?

14:28:47 <bparsia> what's going on?

Bijan Parsia: what's going on?

14:28:52 <pfps> alanr: use of xsd:float - as datatype name, as separate from other numbers

Alan Ruttenberg: use of xsd:float - as datatype name, as separate from other numbers

14:28:59 <sandro> Ian: Can we use xs:float is a class in restrictions, and if we use it what does it mean?

Ian Horrocks: Can we use xs:float is a class in restrictions, and if we use it what does it mean? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

14:29:04 <m_schnei> my point was, that implementors might want to decide to support reasoning with different kinds of numbers, such as complex numbers or quaternions, and owl:number(+) would make a good abstract base for all possible number classes

Michael Schneider: my point was, that implementors might want to decide to support reasoning with different kinds of numbers, such as complex numbers or quaternions, and owl:number(+) would make a good abstract base for all possible number classes

14:29:24 <pfps> msmith: if we use it, then it should mean the same as in xsd - i.e., discrete

Michael Smith: if we use it, then it should mean the same as in xsd - i.e., discrete

14:29:53 <rob> "using as a base" works the opposite the way in OWL it does in other languages: in other languages you build up, but in OWL you only trim down.

Rob Shearer: "using as a base" works the opposite the way in OWL it does in other languages: in other languages you build up, but in OWL you only trim down.

14:29:58 <pfps> alanr: thus not make xsd:float required

Alan Ruttenberg: thus not make xsd:float required

14:29:59 <sandro> msmith: If we use xs:float it should have the same semantics as in XS -- discrete reals, plus the extras.    But that's hard to implement, so don't require it.

Michael Smith: If we use xs:float it should have the same semantics as in XS -- discrete reals, plus the extras. But that's hard to implement, so don't require it. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

14:30:15 <pfps> boris: the documents have to be careful then

Boris Motik: the documents have to be careful then

14:30:20 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

14:30:42 <rob> +1 to not allowing "range xsd:float", for example.

Rob Shearer: +1 to not allowing "range xsd:float", for example.

14:30:45 <sandro> boris: That's fine.   We're supporing xs:float types for constants, but not for ranges.

Boris Motik: That's fine. We're supporing xs:float types for constants, but not for ranges. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

14:31:36 <sandro> msmith: I have an issue with wanting to be able to implement xs:float ranges -- is my implementation allowed to do that?

Michael Smith: I have an issue with wanting to be able to implement xs:float ranges -- is my implementation allowed to do that? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

14:31:37 <pfps> alanr: straw poll - is xsd:float an OWL datatype

Alan Ruttenberg: straw poll - is xsd:float an OWL datatype

14:31:39 <bparsia> +0 waiting to investigate how often it appears in practice

Bijan Parsia: +0 waiting to investigate how often it appears in practice

14:31:41 <sandro> Alan: let's come back to that.

Alan Ruttenberg: let's come back to that. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

14:31:44 <pfps> msmith: no

Michael Smith: no

14:31:52 <rob> horribly confusing, and non-conformant with XSchema...

Rob Shearer: horribly confusing, and non-conformant with XSchema...

14:31:54 <pfps> boris: but would anyone see a difference?

Boris Motik: but would anyone see a difference?

14:32:19 <bparsia> http://swoogle.umbc.edu/index.php?option=com_frontpage&service=search&queryType=search_swd_ontology&searchStart=1&searchString=float

Bijan Parsia: http://swoogle.umbc.edu/index.php?option=com_frontpage&service=search&queryType=search_swd_ontology&searchStart=1&searchString=float

14:32:24 <pfps> msmith: choosing xsd:float is a choice - why did someone do it

Michael Smith: choosing xsd:float is a choice - why did someone do it

14:32:35 <pfps> ianh: is there an example

Ian Horrocks: is there an example

14:33:08 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

14:33:16 <pfps> m_schneider: perhaps xsd:float was used to allow more values (due to implementation limitations)

Michael Schneider: perhaps xsd:float was used to allow more values (due to implementation limitations)

14:33:27 <pfps> boris: value space of xsd:integer is all integers

Boris Motik: value space of xsd:integer is all integers

14:33:46 <pfps> boris: some implementations might not support arbitrarily large constants

Boris Motik: some implementations might not support arbitrarily large constants

14:34:10 <bparsia> Another example: http://www.biopax.org/release/biopax-level2.owl

Bijan Parsia: Another example: http://www.biopax.org/release/biopax-level2.owl

14:34:12 <pfps> boris: xsd says that minimal conformance requires support for integers that fit into 64 bits

Boris Motik: xsd says that minimal conformance requires support for integers that fit into 64 bits

14:34:18 <bparsia> But floatiness doesn't seem interesting

Bijan Parsia: But floatiness doesn't seem interesting

14:34:20 <sandro> boris: yes, the value space for integer and decimal are infinite, but we only want to require folks to implement certain size constants.

Boris Motik: yes, the value space for integer and decimal are infinite, but we only want to require folks to implement certain size constants. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

14:34:52 <sandro> alan: XMLS and OWL may have different conformance clauses.

Alan Ruttenberg: XMLS and OWL may have different conformance clauses. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

14:35:04 <pfps> jonathan: in scientific computing float means "can be represented (exactly) as a float"

Jonathan Rees: in scientific computing float means "can be represented (exactly) as a float"

14:35:27 <sandro> jrees: No one in scientific computing would say sqrt(2) is float.

Jonathan Rees: No one in scientific computing would say sqrt(2) is float. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

14:35:44 <pfps> ianh: we need to be careful to keep constants (and minimal conformance) and value spaces separate

Ian Horrocks: we need to be careful to keep constants (and minimal conformance) and value spaces separate

14:35:45 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

14:36:00 <rob> q+

Rob Shearer: q+

14:36:22 <pfps> boris: sqrt(2) is not a float - we can approximate it, though

Boris Motik: sqrt(2) is not a float - we can approximate it, though

14:37:06 <pfps> msmith: suppose I use small numbers and I store them as floats - I may want to know whether there is a float between two others (that are close)

Michael Smith: suppose I use small numbers and I store them as floats - I may want to know whether there is a float between two others (that are close)

14:37:20 <m_schnei> scribe assist - I talked about xsd:decimal, not xsd:float

Michael Schneider: scribe assist - I talked about xsd:decimal, not xsd:float

14:37:24 <rob> zakim, unmute me

Rob Shearer: zakim, unmute me

14:37:24 <Zakim> rob should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: rob should no longer be muted

14:37:29 <pfps> alanr: in the proposal sqrt(2) is in float

Alan Ruttenberg: in the proposal sqrt(2) is in float

14:38:07 <bparsia> q+

Bijan Parsia: q+

14:38:10 <pfps> rob: "can't tell the difference now" is a suspect argument - extensions may expose the differences

Rob Shearer: "can't tell the difference now" is a suspect argument - extensions may expose the differences

14:38:13 <bparsia> (to reply to owl)

Bijan Parsia: (to reply to owl)

14:38:15 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?

Sandro Hawke: RRSAgent, pointer?

14:38:15 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2008/07/28-owl-irc#T14-38-15

RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2008/07/28-owl-irc#T14-38-15

14:38:23 <rob> zakim, mute me

Rob Shearer: zakim, mute me

14:38:23 <Zakim> rob should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: rob should now be muted

14:38:30 <rob> q-

Rob Shearer: q-

14:39:02 <pfps> ianh: everyone seems to be OK with xsd:float as a datatype, so what is the point of this discussion

Ian Horrocks: everyone seems to be OK with xsd:float as a datatype, so what is the point of this discussion

14:39:51 <pfps> ianh: people who are interested in the edge conditions of float already understand the issues and that it is a bad idea to depend on them

Ian Horrocks: people who are interested in the edge conditions of float already understand the issues and that it is a bad idea to depend on them

14:40:16 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me

14:40:16 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted

14:40:18 <bparsia>   <owl:DatatypeProperty rdf:ID="Price">

Bijan Parsia: <owl:DatatypeProperty rdf:ID="Price">

14:40:18 <bparsia>     <rdfs:domain rdf:resource="#PurchasedItem"/>

Bijan Parsia: <rdfs:domain rdf:resource="#PurchasedItem"/>

14:40:18 <bparsia>     <rdfs:range rdf:resource="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#float"/>

Bijan Parsia: <rdfs:range rdf:resource="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#float"/>

14:40:18 <bparsia>   </owl:DatatypeProperty>

Bijan Parsia: </owl:DatatypeProperty>

14:40:23 <bparsia> http://www.dayf.de/2004/owl/order.owl

Bijan Parsia: http://www.dayf.de/2004/owl/order.owl

14:40:25 <pfps> jonathan: floats are reliably used in scientific computing

Jonathan Rees: floats are reliably used in scientific computing

14:40:38 <bparsia> can we use the queue, in general?

Bijan Parsia: can we use the queue, in general?

14:40:48 <bparsia> It's hard to know where I am on the queue

Bijan Parsia: It's hard to know where I am on the queue

14:40:53 <rob> yes, bijan---everybody uses floats in those things now because it's allowed.

Rob Shearer: yes, bijan---everybody uses floats in those things now because it's allowed.

14:41:13 <uli> \me guesses that Peter and Rob are close to the microphone and Alan is far away?

Uli Sattler: \me guesses that Peter and Rob are close to the microphone and Alan is far away?

14:41:13 <pfps> ianh: can we handle this under RDF repairs?

Ian Horrocks: can we handle this under RDF repairs?

14:41:15 <bparsia> rob, I'm just gathering examples. That's pretty clearly a silly one

Bijan Parsia: rob, I'm just gathering examples. That's pretty clearly a silly one

14:41:29 <bparsia> From the point of view of "OOO, IEEE float"

Bijan Parsia: From the point of view of "OOO, IEEE float"

14:41:41 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

14:41:43 <sandro> ack bparsia

Sandro Hawke: ack bparsia

14:41:48 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

14:42:45 <pfps> bparsia: examples of xsd:float in Swoogle in Tboxes - there is a fair bit, but no used for floatiness

Bijan Parsia: examples of xsd:float in Swoogle in Tboxes - there is a fair bit, but no used for floatiness

14:43:30 <pfps> bparsia: we could have owl:IEEEfloat for those who need floatiness

Bijan Parsia: we could have owl:IEEEfloat for those who need floatiness

14:43:32 <rob> But why include xsd:float as a value space which doesn't mean what its name implies?

Rob Shearer: But why include xsd:float as a value space which doesn't mean what its name implies?

14:44:00 <bparsia> I don't know what you mean "include as a value space". I mean it to be a sub thing of owl number

Bijan Parsia: I don't know what you mean "include as a value space". I mean it to be a sub thing of owl number

14:44:07 <pfps> boris: it is easier to say that float is on both sides

Boris Motik: it is easier to say that float is on both sides

14:44:09 <bparsia> I.e., as sugar for a bounded real

Bijan Parsia: I.e., as sugar for a bounded real

14:44:12 <bparsia> er. number

Bijan Parsia: er. number

14:44:17 <rob> zakim, unmute me

Rob Shearer: zakim, unmute me

14:44:17 <Zakim> rob should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: rob should no longer be muted

14:44:17 <pfps> msmith: why not use xsd:decimal

Michael Smith: why not use xsd:decimal

14:44:24 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

14:44:25 <pfps> boris: because people use xsd:float

Boris Motik: because people use xsd:float

14:44:33 <rob> zakim, mute me

Rob Shearer: zakim, mute me

14:44:33 <Zakim> rob should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: rob should now be muted

14:44:47 <uli> before the break: is there an updated agenda?

Uli Sattler: before the break: is there an updated agenda?

14:44:49 <pfps> msmith: but they might want the floatiness

Michael Smith: but they might want the floatiness

14:45:09 <bparsia> The people who "are using floatiness" are likely in a better position to be "screwed" than others :)

Bijan Parsia: The people who "are using floatiness" are likely in a better position to be "screwed" than others :)

14:45:46 <rob> But there's no evidence that anybody is using the floatiness...

Rob Shearer: But there's no evidence that anybody is using the floatiness...

14:46:05 <bparsia> rob, I agree, I'm just saying that it probably wouldn't matter

Bijan Parsia: rob, I agree, I'm just saying that it probably wouldn't matter

14:46:14 <pfps> ScribeNick: m_schneider

(Scribe set to Michael Schneider)

14:46:32 <uli> ...does anybody have an updated agenda?

Uli Sattler: ...does anybody have an updated agenda?

14:46:35 <uli> Alan, Ian?

Uli Sattler: Alan, Ian?

14:46:35 <bparsia> They hypothetical floaters would presumably be so sophisticated that they could handle a break ok

Bijan Parsia: They hypothetical floaters would presumably be so sophisticated that they could handle a break ok

14:46:43 <rob> Allowing some "owl value spaces" which are xsd names and mean the xsd value space, and some which are xsd names but don't mean the xsd value space, is terribl terrible design.

Rob Shearer: Allowing some "owl value spaces" which are xsd names and mean the xsd value space, and some which are xsd names but don't mean the xsd value space, is terribl terrible design.

14:47:15 <uli> zakim, unmute me

Uli Sattler: zakim, unmute me

14:47:15 <Zakim> uli should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: uli should no longer be muted

14:47:18 <rob> And it's the easiest thing to patch in legacy ontologies---it's entirely clear what needs to be fixed.

Rob Shearer: And it's the easiest thing to patch in legacy ontologies---it's entirely clear what needs to be fixed.

14:48:22 <uli> zakim, mute me

Uli Sattler: zakim, mute me

14:48:22 <Zakim> uli should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: uli should now be muted

14:48:29 <rob> should we have a phone pow-wow without the boston crowd?

Rob Shearer: should we have a phone pow-wow without the boston crowd?

14:48:30 <ekw> Agenda is http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/F2F3_Agenda

Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 23 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Jonathan Rees Jie Bao Rob Shearer Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown Carsten Deborah McGuinness Unknown Karen Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 23 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Jonathan Rees Jie Bao Rob Shearer Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown Carsten Deborah McGuinness Unknown Karen Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown ekw: Agenda is http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/F2F3_Agenda

14:49:02 <uli> thanks, evan. I was just wondering whether it was up to date

Uli Sattler: thanks, ?? who is ekw?. I was just wondering whether it was up to date

14:49:15 <uli> since the datatype discussion started much earlier than planned

Uli Sattler: since the datatype discussion started much earlier than planned

14:49:45 <uli> s/evan/?? who is ekw?
14:51:03 <Zakim> -rob

Zakim IRC Bot: -rob

14:51:20 <Zakim> -uli

Zakim IRC Bot: -uli

14:53:07 <sandro> rob, bparsia, uli are participating remotely

Sandro Hawke: rob, bparsia, uli are participating remotely

14:58:28 <pfps> rrsagent, pointer?

(No events recorded for 5 minutes)

Peter Patel-Schneider: rrsagent, pointer?

14:58:28 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2008/07/28-owl-irc#T14-58-28

RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2008/07/28-owl-irc#T14-58-28

14:58:44 <rob> are we re-starting?

Rob Shearer: are we re-starting?

14:58:59 <sandro> no, rob

Sandro Hawke: no, rob

15:14:22 <sandro> scribe: m_schnei
15:15:08 <Zakim> +??P18

(No events recorded for 16 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P18

15:15:16 <uli> zakim, ??P18 is me

Uli Sattler: zakim, ??P18 is me

15:15:16 <Zakim> +uli; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +uli; got it

15:15:20 <uli> zakim, mute me

Uli Sattler: zakim, mute me

15:15:20 <Zakim> uli should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: uli should now be muted

15:15:25 <alanr> http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath-functions/#casting-to-numerics

Alan Ruttenberg: http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath-functions/#casting-to-numerics

15:16:05 <m_schnei> alanr: 10 more minutes on floats, and afterwards other types

Alan Ruttenberg: 10 more minutes on floats, and afterwards other types

15:16:44 <m_schnei> alanr: option legacy: lots of people using floats

Alan Ruttenberg: option legacy: lots of people using floats

15:17:22 <m_schnei> boris: mike trys to convince me that discrete xsd:float  is not too difficult

Boris Motik: mike trys to convince me that discrete xsd:float is not too difficult

15:17:42 <m_schnei> boris: if it works well and efficient, I'll be happy with it

Boris Motik: if it works well and efficient, I'll be happy with it

15:17:55 <m_schnei> alanr: asks what implementors think

Alan Ruttenberg: asks what implementors think

15:18:06 <m_schnei> zhe: would like that

Zhe Wu: would like that

15:18:12 <sandro> rob, you there?

Sandro Hawke: rob, you there?

15:18:21 <m_schnei> achille: would like it too

Achille Fokoue: would like it too

15:18:46 <m_schnei> msmith: big problem is determining how many floats are between two given floats

Michael Smith: big problem is determining how many floats are between two given floats

15:19:03 <Zakim> +rob

Zakim IRC Bot: +rob

15:19:10 <rob> zakim, mute me

Rob Shearer: zakim, mute me

15:19:10 <Zakim> rob should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: rob should now be muted

15:19:38 <m_schnei> alanr: other option for floats is the "high road"

Alan Ruttenberg: other option for floats is the "high road"

15:19:39 <sandro> ack rob

Sandro Hawke: ack rob

15:19:43 <rob> zakim, unmute me

Rob Shearer: zakim, unmute me

15:19:43 <Zakim> rob was not muted, rob

Zakim IRC Bot: rob was not muted, rob

15:20:10 <m_schnei> alanr: (to rob) there are three implementors who are happy with floats as discrete set

Alan Ruttenberg: (to rob) there are three implementors who are happy with floats as discrete set

15:20:42 <m_schnei> ian: we are reinterpreting floats as a set of discrete points

Ian Horrocks: we are reinterpreting floats as a set of discrete points

15:21:00 <m_schnei> rob: that's still a crazy idea

Rob Shearer: that's still a crazy idea

15:21:11 <uli> +1 to Rob

Uli Sattler: +1 to Rob

15:21:24 <m_schnei> achille: because it is the same interpretation as in xsd

Achille Fokoue: because it is the same interpretation as in xsd

15:21:32 <sandro> alan: Rob, what do you think of the proposal: Floats are a value space which is discrete points in the owl:number value space (just like integers are), plus +/- inf, zero

Alan Ruttenberg: Rob, what do you think of the proposal: Floats are a value space which is discrete points in the owl:number value space (just like integers are), plus +/- inf, zero [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:21:44 <m_schnei> achille: possible to count number of floats between

Achille Fokoue: possible to count number of floats between

15:21:59 <m_schnei> achille: would be no big issue anymore from his pov

Achille Fokoue: would be no big issue anymore from his pov

15:22:17 <msmith> E.g., see http://www.cygnus-software.com/papers/comparingfloats/comparingfloats.htm and integer comparison section

Michael Smith: E.g., see http://www.cygnus-software.com/papers/comparingfloats/comparingfloats.htm and integer comparison section

15:22:33 <m_schnei> achille: still concern that owl:number is non-discrete

Achille Fokoue: still concern that owl:number is non-discrete

15:23:02 <m_schnei> rob: it's trivial for implementations to use it in discrete way

Rob Shearer: it's trivial for implementations to use it in discrete way

15:23:23 <m_schnei> zhe: has seen ontologies using float, should not be disallowed

Zhe Wu: has seen ontologies using float, should not be disallowed

15:23:40 <m_schnei> boris: big benefit would be that this would close the issue

Boris Motik: big benefit would be that this would close the issue

15:23:42 <bparsia> +1 boris

Bijan Parsia: +1 boris

15:23:53 <Zakim> +Carsten

Zakim IRC Bot: +Carsten

15:24:01 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

15:24:03 <Carsten> hi all

Unknown Carsten: hi all

15:24:06 <sandro> q+rob

Sandro Hawke: q+rob

15:24:11 <Carsten> zakim, mute me

Unknown Carsten: zakim, mute me

15:24:11 <Zakim> Carsten should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Carsten should now be muted

15:24:24 <bparsia> +1 again to boris

Bijan Parsia: +1 again to boris

15:24:29 <m_schnei> boris: want's to simply explicitly list the allowed datatypes

Boris Motik: want's to simply explicitly list the allowed datatypes

15:24:58 <sandro> boris: People might want to say range is float, so it's known it can be stored in 32 bits.

Boris Motik: People might want to say range is float, so it's known it can be stored in 32 bits. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:25:03 <m_schnei> boris: xsd:float would simply refer to ieee definition of float

Boris Motik: xsd:float would simply refer to ieee definition of float

15:25:04 <sandro> ack rob

Sandro Hawke: ack rob

15:26:02 <m_schnei> alanr: you are the last one against

Alan Ruttenberg: you are the last one against

15:26:08 <m_schnei> alanr: to rob

Alan Ruttenberg: to rob

15:26:14 <uli> q+

Uli Sattler: q+

15:27:15 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

15:27:54 <pfps> if we make the value space of xsd:float discrete, then we should make it disoint from owl:number

Peter Patel-Schneider: if we make the value space of xsd:float discrete, then we should make it disoint from owl:number

15:27:58 <uli> zakim, unmute me

Uli Sattler: zakim, unmute me

15:27:58 <Zakim> uli should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: uli should no longer be muted

15:28:08 <Carsten> same here

Unknown Carsten: same here

15:28:46 <m_schnei> uli: asks about performance problems with discrete floats

Uli Sattler: asks about performance problems with discrete floats

15:28:49 <bparsia> It's no worse than integers.

Bijan Parsia: It's no worse than integers.

15:29:05 <m_schnei> uli: additional problem, having all these numbers available

Uli Sattler: additional problem, having all these numbers available

15:29:32 <m_schnei> boris: if you know that your datarange is large, you don't have a problem [FIXME]

Boris Motik: if you know that your datarange is large, you don't have a problem [FIXME]

15:29:36 <bparsia> 1+

Bijan Parsia: 1+

15:29:37 <bparsia> er

Bijan Parsia: er

15:29:39 <bparsia> q+

Bijan Parsia: q+

15:29:48 <m_schnei> uli: concerns about unimplementable

Uli Sattler: concerns about unimplementable

15:30:03 <rob> q+ to repeat his very first arguments...

Rob Shearer: q+ to repeat his very first arguments...

15:30:11 <Carsten> though this may "typically" be true, you still need to check for it in a reasoner

Unknown Carsten: though this may "typically" be true, you still need to check for it in a reasoner

15:30:35 <uli> zakim, mute me

Uli Sattler: zakim, mute me

15:30:36 <Zakim> uli should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: uli should now be muted

15:31:05 <msmith> uli, the primary change, I believe is that Boris has been convinced the counting the number of floats between endpoints is easy

Michael Smith: uli, the primary change, I believe is that Boris has been convinced the counting the number of floats between endpoints is easy

15:31:08 <bparsia> (My point was that we can express discrete floats with our given integer facets)

Bijan Parsia: (My point was that we can express discrete floats with our given integer facets)

15:31:10 <alanr> q?

Alan Ruttenberg: q?

15:31:13 <alanr> ack uli

Alan Ruttenberg: ack uli

15:31:17 <Carsten> to me, that was never really the point

Unknown Carsten: to me, that was never really the point

15:31:21 <m_schnei> ian: uli, piece you are missing is that computing that number of numbers between two numbers is actually easy to compute

Ian Horrocks: uli, piece you are missing is that computing that number of numbers between two numbers is actually easy to compute

15:31:22 <uli> zakim, unmute me

Uli Sattler: zakim, unmute me

15:31:22 <Zakim> uli was not muted, uli

Zakim IRC Bot: uli was not muted, uli

15:31:26 <rob> never really the point to me, ether

Rob Shearer: never really the point to me, ether

15:31:32 <alanr> ack bparsia

Alan Ruttenberg: ack bparsia

15:31:34 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me

15:31:34 <Zakim> bparsia was not muted, bparsia

Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia was not muted, bparsia

15:31:36 <uli> zakim, mute me

Uli Sattler: zakim, mute me

15:31:36 <Zakim> uli should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: uli should now be muted

15:31:39 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

15:32:01 <alanr> ack rob

Alan Ruttenberg: ack rob

15:32:01 <Zakim> rob, you wanted to repeat his very first arguments...

Zakim IRC Bot: rob, you wanted to repeat his very first arguments...

15:32:07 <bparsia> zakim, mute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me

15:32:07 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted

15:32:08 <uli> but we had unbounded integers!

Uli Sattler: but we had unbounded integers!

15:32:09 <sandro> Ian: We thought it was hard to handle discrete floats, but now we think it's the same as handling ints.

Ian Horrocks: We thought it was hard to handle discrete floats, but now we think it's the same as handling ints. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:32:17 <Carsten> +10!

Unknown Carsten: +10!

15:32:26 <rob> zakim, mute me

Rob Shearer: zakim, mute me

15:32:26 <Zakim> rob should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: rob should now be muted

15:32:26 <sandro> Rob: using xs:float as a value space is not what any user wants.

Rob Shearer: using xs:float as a value space is not what any user wants. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:32:26 <m_schnei> rob: xsd:float as a value space is not what people want

Rob Shearer: xsd:float as a value space is not what people want

15:32:38 <msmith> bijan: you can mirror the discreteness of floating point numbers using a datarange on xsd:integer

Bijan Parsia: you can mirror the discreteness of floating point numbers using a datarange on xsd:integer [ Scribe Assist by Michael Smith ]

15:32:39 <m_schnei> alanr: going to vote now

Alan Ruttenberg: going to vote now

15:32:48 <uli> Ian, I don't think this is true: integers are unbounded?!

Uli Sattler: Ian, I don't think this is true: integers are unbounded?!

15:33:03 <bparsia> uli, you can create a derived type which is bounded

Bijan Parsia: uli, you can create a derived type which is bounded

15:33:14 <Carsten> uli,  but there are facets

Unknown Carsten: uli, but there are facets

15:33:16 <uli> sure - but then I have done it

Uli Sattler: sure - but then I have done it

15:33:26 <bparsia> I.e., 5 < & >1

Bijan Parsia: I.e., 5 < & >1

15:33:29 <rob> discrete floats completely breaks linear inequations...

Rob Shearer: discrete floats completely breaks linear inequations...

15:33:32 <uli> I understand

Uli Sattler: I understand

15:33:36 <msmith> but, also, you had to choose xsd:float

Michael Smith: but, also, you had to choose xsd:float

15:33:40 <uli> but then it's up to the user

Uli Sattler: but then it's up to the user

15:33:41 <m_schnei> baojie: can we compare each pair of numbers from two types?

Jie Bao: can we compare each pair of numbers from two types?

15:33:45 <rob> (because many many ontologies will use xsd:float when they just mean number)

Rob Shearer: (because many many ontologies will use xsd:float when they just mean number)

15:33:50 <bparsia> Right, so in terms of the underlying impelmentation it's no harder..

Bijan Parsia: Right, so in terms of the underlying impelmentation it's no harder..

15:33:51 <sandro> PROPOSED: The value space of xs:float will be a subset of the value space of owl:numberplus (real numbers plus +/- inf, +/- zero, NaN).   It would be discrete points in that space, like xs:integer.

PROPOSED: The value space of xs:float will be a subset of the value space of owl:numberplus (real numbers plus +/- inf, +/- zero, NaN). It would be discrete points in that space, like xs:integer.

15:33:52 <msmith> you wouldn't use floats for inequations, you'd use the reals

Michael Smith: you wouldn't use floats for inequations, you'd use the reals

15:33:53 <uli> whereas float comes with this *unexpectedly*

Uli Sattler: whereas float comes with this *unexpectedly*

15:33:57 <bmotik> +1 Oxford

Boris Motik: +1 Oxford

15:34:01 <baojie> +1 RPI

Jie Bao: +1 RPI

15:34:13 <msmith> +1 C&P

Michael Smith: +1 C&P

15:34:16 <m_schnei> +1 FZI

+1 FZI

15:34:20 <ekw> +1 NIST

Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 23 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Jonathan Rees Jie Bao Rob Shearer Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown Carsten Deborah McGuinness Unknown Karen Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 23 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Jonathan Rees Jie Bao Rob Shearer Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown Carsten Deborah McGuinness Unknown Karen Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown ekw: +1 NIST

15:34:22 <Achille> +1 IBM

Achille Fokoue: +1 IBM

15:34:23 <pfps> -0 Bell Labs

Peter Patel-Schneider: -0 Bell Labs

15:34:25 <Zhe> +1 ORACLE

Zhe Wu: +1 ORACLE

15:34:26 <sandro> +1 W3C

Sandro Hawke: +1 W3C

15:34:43 <Carsten> -1 (illegal vote)

Unknown Carsten: -1 (illegal vote)

15:34:52 <jar> +1 Science Commons

Jonathan Rees: +1 Science Commons

15:35:03 <sandro> (Carsten isn't currently a WG member)

Sandro Hawke: (Carsten isn't currently a WG member)

15:35:12 <bparsia> One sec

Bijan Parsia: One sec

15:35:17 <Carsten> but (still) working on it

Unknown Carsten: but (still) working on it

15:35:29 <uli> 0 manchester

Uli Sattler: 0 manchester

15:35:40 <sandro> RESOLVED: The value space of xs:float will be a subset of the value space of owl:numberplus (real numbers plus +/- inf, +/- zero, NaN).   It would be discrete points in that space, like xs:integer.

RESOLVED: The value space of xs:float will be a subset of the value space of owl:numberplus (real numbers plus +/- inf, +/- zero, NaN). It would be discrete points in that space, like xs:integer.

15:36:00 <m_schnei> Topic: Rationals

4. Rationals

15:36:38 <m_schnei> alanr: as i understand, the proposal is about rational *constants*

Alan Ruttenberg: as i understand, the proposal is about rational *constants*

15:37:37 <m_schnei> boris: from a presentability pov, better to look at a type from its value space

Boris Motik: from a presentability pov, better to look at a type from its value space

15:37:45 <alanr> q?

Alan Ruttenberg: q?

15:38:21 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

15:38:29 <m_schnei> ian: more relaxed point of view, may exist types with overlapping value spaces

Ian Horrocks: more relaxed point of view, may exist types with overlapping value spaces

15:38:45 <alanr> q?

Alan Ruttenberg: q?

15:39:08 <rob> it's far easier than having a float value space

Rob Shearer: it's far easier than having a float value space

15:39:12 <msmith> msmith: rational constants are useful, I don't believe value space is

Michael Smith: rational constants are useful, I don't believe value space is [ Scribe Assist by Michael Smith ]

15:39:22 <m_schnei> alanr: adding rational numbers would bring problems in comparing with other types

Alan Ruttenberg: adding rational numbers would bring problems in comparing with other types

15:39:35 <m_schnei> alanr: that's an implementors problem

Alan Ruttenberg: that's an implementors problem

15:39:52 <m_schnei> alanr: in particular if the other type is float

Alan Ruttenberg: in particular if the other type is float

15:40:20 <m_schnei> alanr: how do you say that the rational and the float is exactly the same number

Alan Ruttenberg: how do you say that the rational and the float is exactly the same number

15:41:12 <m_schnei> msmith: ready to do this

Michael Smith: ready to do this

15:42:03 <m_schnei> boris: rational seems to have a natural place in the hierarchy starting with owl:number

Boris Motik: rational seems to have a natural place in the hierarchy starting with owl:number

15:42:18 <m_schnei> boris: bigger issue is supporting rational constants

Boris Motik: bigger issue is supporting rational constants

15:42:42 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

15:43:17 <uli> Boris, is this "I know it's difficult" or "I don't know yet how to do it fast"?

Uli Sattler: Boris, is this "I know it's difficult" or "I don't know yet how to do it fast"?

15:43:21 <bparsia> To express all the rationals using decimal notation requires infinite expansion

Bijan Parsia: To express all the rationals using decimal notation requires infinite expansion

15:43:34 <m_schnei> m_schnei: rational coresponds to decimals

Michael Schneider: rational coresponds to decimals

15:43:40 <m_schnei> boris: wrong

Boris Motik: wrong

15:43:45 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

15:44:00 <m_schnei> boris: not every rational can be represented as decimal, eg. 1/3

Boris Motik: not every rational can be represented as decimal, eg. 1/3

15:45:19 <m_schnei> boris: thought that rational were easily implementable, but after yesterday's (?) discussion he is not sure anymore

Boris Motik: thought that rational were easily implementable, but after yesterday's (?) discussion he is not sure anymore

15:46:11 <rob> how is implementability the issue?

Rob Shearer: how is implementability the issue?

15:46:14 <IanH> Achille: need restriction; even then not sure if we would implement

Achille Fokoue: need restriction; even then not sure if we would implement [ Scribe Assist by Ian Horrocks ]

15:46:18 <alanr> q?

Alan Ruttenberg: q?

15:46:22 <bparsia> We like rationals

Bijan Parsia: We like rationals

15:46:28 <m_schnei> zhe: not sure if implementable by oracle, which uses a number type, perhaps not compatible with owl:rational

Zhe Wu: not sure if implementable by oracle, which uses a number type, perhaps not compatible with owl:rational

15:46:28 <uli> yes, we really do

Uli Sattler: yes, we really do

15:46:31 <bparsia> Uli has a burning desire to write 1/3 in ontologies

Bijan Parsia: Uli has a burning desire to write 1/3 in ontologies

15:46:42 <bparsia> constants,I think

Bijan Parsia: constants,I think

15:46:56 <bparsia> But we wouldn't mind datatypes

Bijan Parsia: But we wouldn't mind datatypes

15:47:04 <Zhe> it is a bit hard for relational DB to implement rational

Zhe Wu: it is a bit hard for relational DB to implement rational

15:47:13 <Zhe> may not worth the effort

Zhe Wu: may not worth the effort

15:47:28 <uli> Zhe, your DB wouldn't need to implement it?

Uli Sattler: Zhe, your DB wouldn't need to implement it?

15:47:42 <Zhe> uli. we might skip this one

Zhe Wu: uli. we might skip this one

15:47:58 <m_schnei> alanr: couple of implementors say rational may be problematic, but there is also desire

Alan Ruttenberg: couple of implementors say rational may be problematic, but there is also desire

15:48:03 <m_schnei> ian: straw poll

Ian Horrocks: straw poll

15:48:11 <rob> q+

Rob Shearer: q+

15:48:18 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

15:48:56 <rob> zakim, unmute me

Rob Shearer: zakim, unmute me

15:48:56 <Zakim> rob should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: rob should no longer be muted

15:49:02 <m_schnei> baojie: no use cases found for rational in wiki

Jie Bao: no use cases found for rational in wiki

15:49:25 <rob> zakim, mute me

Rob Shearer: zakim, mute me

15:49:25 <Zakim> rob should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: rob should now be muted

15:49:28 <rob> q-

Rob Shearer: q-

15:49:33 <Carsten> not strange at all: they had a completely different application in mind

Unknown Carsten: not strange at all: they had a completely different application in mind

15:49:36 <m_schnei> rob: strange that owl group sais that xsd group did bad job [FIXME]

Rob Shearer: strange that owl group sais that xsd group did bad job [FIXME]

15:49:53 <bparsia> That's a weird thing for rob to say given all his pangyrics about how xml schema numbers/value spaces are not what owl wants ;)

Bijan Parsia: That's a weird thing for rob to say given all his pangyrics about how xml schema numbers/value spaces are not what owl wants ;)

15:50:14 <rob> XSD isn't a spec about value spaces---it's about writing down numbers.

Rob Shearer: XSD isn't a spec about value spaces---it's about writing down numbers.

15:50:32 <sandro> alan: let's postpone Rationals to be part of n-ary.

Alan Ruttenberg: let's postpone Rationals to be part of n-ary. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:50:34 <m_schnei> msmith: owl being an ontology langugage, it makes sense to have exact, not approx definitions

Michael Smith: owl being an ontology langugage, it makes sense to have exact, not approx definitions

15:51:01 <m_schnei> alanr: what is most important topic?

Alan Ruttenberg: what is most important topic?

15:51:08 <m_schnei> alanr: nary? noone

Alan Ruttenberg: nary? noone

15:51:17 <m_schnei> alanr: datetime? few

Alan Ruttenberg: datetime? few

15:51:24 <m_schnei> alanr: communication: several

Alan Ruttenberg: communication: several

15:51:28 <sandro> Topic: Communication

5. Communication

15:51:31 <alanr> q?

Alan Ruttenberg: q?

15:51:45 <bparsia> XSD is not about writing down numbers in a mathematical sense; that's seems mathml. OWL, as you argued, is much more about value space, ergo, it's not *weird* to argue that the xsd way of writing numbers down may be insufficient. You may disagree, but its' not weird

Bijan Parsia: XSD is not about writing down numbers in a mathematical sense; that's seems mathml. OWL, as you argued, is much more about value space, ergo, it's not *weird* to argue that the xsd way of writing numbers down may be insufficient. You may disagree, but its' not weird

15:51:54 <IanH> Boris on presentation. Interesting.

Ian Horrocks: Boris on presentation. Interesting.

15:52:13 <m_schnei> boris: in datatype section 4.2 we say for each datatype what its lexical space, its value space is

Boris Motik: in datatype section 4.2 we say for each datatype what its lexical space, its value space is

15:53:02 <m_schnei> boris: when two constants are structurally the same

Boris Motik: when two constants are structurally the same

15:53:30 <m_schnei> boris: whether implementations are allowed to simplify lexical reps

Boris Motik: whether implementations are allowed to simplify lexical reps

15:53:50 <IanH> Achille: constant = lexical representation

Achille Fokoue: constant = lexical representation [ Scribe Assist by Ian Horrocks ]

15:53:55 <sandro> Achille: Boris, when you say "constant" you mean "lexical representation" right?   Boris: Yes,.

Achille Fokoue: Boris, when you say "constant" you mean "lexical representation" right? Boris: Yes,. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:54:39 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

15:54:52 <m_schnei> msmith: main question about structural sameness

Michael Smith: main question about structural sameness

15:55:12 <m_schnei> boris: we have structural equivalence on virtually everything

Boris Motik: we have structural equivalence on virtually everything

15:56:02 <m_schnei> boris: always saying something like these two expressions are structurally different, but they are equivalent

Boris Motik: always saying something like these two expressions are structurally different, but they are equivalent

15:56:12 <m_schnei> boris: e.g. 2.0 to 2

Boris Motik: e.g. 2.0 to 2

15:56:32 <m_schnei> boris: we should at least say something about this

Boris Motik: we should at least say something about this

15:57:06 <m_schnei> alanr: what about rounded floats?

Alan Ruttenberg: what about rounded floats?

15:57:22 <m_schnei> boris: one can have the same float after it gets rounded

Boris Motik: one can have the same float after it gets rounded

15:58:03 <m_schnei> boris: should be clear that if you do this than you change the ontology

Boris Motik: should be clear that if you do this than you change the ontology

15:58:30 <m_schnei> boris: if this is really critical to an implementation, this should not be done

Boris Motik: if this is really critical to an implementation, this should not be done

15:59:12 <m_schnei> alanr: we should always distinguish between "xsd value space" and "owl value space"

Alan Ruttenberg: we should always distinguish between "xsd value space" and "owl value space"

16:00:23 <m_schnei> ian: we should better talk about "interpretations of types"

Ian Horrocks: we should better talk about "interpretations of types"

16:00:31 <alanr> q?

Alan Ruttenberg: q?

16:00:52 <m_schnei> boris: first, let's rename "constant" to "literal"

Boris Motik: first, let's rename "constant" to "literal"

16:01:03 <sandro> boris: Let's go ahead and rename "constant" to "literal".

Boris Motik: Let's go ahead and rename "constant" to "literal". [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:01:09 <m_schnei> boris: constant always refers to the lexical part

Boris Motik: constant always refers to the lexical part

16:01:42 <m_schnei> boris: distinguish between "constant and its interpretation" and "data type and its interpretatoin"

Boris Motik: distinguish between "constant and its interpretation" and "data type and its interpretatoin"

16:02:04 <sandro> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-132 by replacing "constant" with "literal".

PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-132 by replacing "constant" with "literal".

16:02:09 <bmotik> +1 Oxford

Boris Motik: +1 Oxford

16:02:12 <Achille> +1 IBM

Achille Fokoue: +1 IBM

16:02:14 <sandro> +1 W3C

Sandro Hawke: +1 W3C

16:02:17 <pfps> +1 Bell Labs

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 Bell Labs

16:02:19 <Zhe> +1 ORACLE

Zhe Wu: +1 ORACLE

16:02:20 <m_schnei> +1 FZI

+1 FZI

16:02:26 <jar> +1 Science Commons

Jonathan Rees: +1 Science Commons

16:02:29 <uli> +1 Manchester

Uli Sattler: +1 Manchester

16:02:46 <ekw> +1 NIST

Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 23 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Jonathan Rees Jie Bao Rob Shearer Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown Carsten Deborah McGuinness Unknown Karen Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 23 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Jonathan Rees Jie Bao Rob Shearer Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown Carsten Deborah McGuinness Unknown Karen Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown ekw: +1 NIST

16:03:04 <sandro> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-132 by replacing "constant" with "literal".

RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-132 by replacing "constant" with "literal".

16:03:57 <m_schnei> Boris: let's say instead of "data value" better "interpretation of a literal"

Boris Motik: let's say instead of "data value" better "interpretation of a literal"

16:04:18 <bmotik> PROPOSED: Rename data value -> constant intermretation and value space -> Datatype interpretation

PROPOSED: Rename data value -> constant intermretation and value space -> Datatype interpretation

16:04:44 <bmotik> PROPOSED: Rename data value -> literal interpretation and value space -> Datatype interpretation

PROPOSED: Rename data value -> literal interpretation and value space -> Datatype interpretation

16:05:00 <uli> q+

Uli Sattler: q+

16:05:48 <uli> zakim, unmute me

Uli Sattler: zakim, unmute me

16:05:48 <Zakim> uli should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: uli should no longer be muted

16:05:54 <IanH> q?

Ian Horrocks: q?

16:06:06 <alanr> ack uli

Alan Ruttenberg: ack uli

16:06:18 <uli> zakim, mute me

Uli Sattler: zakim, mute me

16:06:18 <Zakim> uli should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: uli should now be muted

16:06:26 <bmotik> something like: Rename data value -> literal interpretation and value space -> Datatype interpretation

Boris Motik: something like: Rename data value -> literal interpretation and value space -> Datatype interpretation

16:07:40 <sandro> But the basic idea is "data value" -> "interpretation of literal"

Sandro Hawke: But the basic idea is "data value" -> "interpretation of literal"

16:07:50 <sandro> (silent agreement by meeting)

Sandro Hawke: (silent agreement by meeting)

16:08:05 <sandro> And instead of "value space" -> "interpretation of a datatype"

Sandro Hawke: And instead of "value space" -> "interpretation of a datatype"

16:08:23 <m_schnei> Topic: datetime

6. datetime

16:09:17 <m_schnei> alanr: problem with different time types is that they are not always comparable

Alan Ruttenberg: problem with different time types is that they are not always comparable

16:09:34 <m_schnei> alanr: for example when different timezones are involved

Alan Ruttenberg: for example when different timezones are involved

16:09:56 <m_schnei> alanr: other problem is the ordering

Alan Ruttenberg: other problem is the ordering

16:10:32 <m_schnei> baojie: in many cases, users do not completely specify all components of a time

Jie Bao: in many cases, users do not completely specify all components of a time

16:11:23 <alanr> q?

Alan Ruttenberg: q?

16:11:26 <m_schnei> baojie: we should allow users to specify less information

Jie Bao: we should allow users to specify less information

16:11:43 <m_schnei> baojie: not a good idea to have utc as a default timezone

Jie Bao: not a good idea to have utc as a default timezone

16:11:55 <m_schnei> baojie: we should allow time periods

Jie Bao: we should allow time periods

16:12:42 <m_schnei> alanr: what does "monday" denote?

Alan Ruttenberg: what does "monday" denote?

16:13:17 <m_schnei> boris: the way xsd deals with this is horrible, means all mondays

Boris Motik: the way xsd deals with this is horrible, means all mondays

16:14:06 <bmotik> bmotik: If we go away from XML Schema, we can have a simpler way of referring to Monday

Boris Motik: If we go away from XML Schema, we can have a simpler way of referring to Monday [ Scribe Assist by Boris Motik ]

16:14:33 <bmotik> bmotik: We could have daysOfTheWeek datatype whose interpretation contains exactly seven values

Boris Motik: We could have daysOfTheWeek datatype whose interpretation contains exactly seven values [ Scribe Assist by Boris Motik ]

16:14:52 <bmotik> bmotik: Then, Monday really refers just to one value in the interpretation

Boris Motik: Then, Monday really refers just to one value in the interpretation [ Scribe Assist by Boris Motik ]

16:15:01 <m_schnei> ian: don't let's invent our own datatype

Ian Horrocks: don't let's invent our own datatype

16:15:14 <bparsia> http://www.hydracen.com/dx/iso8601.htm

Bijan Parsia: http://www.hydracen.com/dx/iso8601.htm

16:15:15 <m_schnei> pfps: what's with the 15th of a month

Peter Patel-Schneider: what's with the 15th of a month

16:15:27 <bparsia> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601

Bijan Parsia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601

16:15:51 <m_schnei> alanr: proposes to regard time as a timeline

Alan Ruttenberg: proposes to regard time as a timeline

16:16:46 <m_schnei> alanr: problem with non-timezoned: any default timezone might be wrong

Alan Ruttenberg: problem with non-timezoned: any default timezone might be wrong

16:17:23 <m_schnei> alanr: 6 o'clock might be right in your timezone, but is different elsewhere

Alan Ruttenberg: 6 o'clock might be right in your timezone, but is different elsewhere

16:18:30 <m_schnei> boris: supporting recurring finite types is not a problem

Boris Motik: supporting recurring finite types is not a problem

16:18:46 <bparsia> q+

Bijan Parsia: q+

16:18:52 <m_schnei> boris: what operations do we want on time dates

Boris Motik: what operations do we want on time dates

16:19:48 <sandro> Boris: Is midnight Jan 1 in the UK the same thing as 1am Jan 1 in Berlin ?

Boris Motik: Is midnight Jan 1 in the UK the same thing as 1am Jan 1 in Berlin ? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:19:56 <sandro> Alan: surveys room, 9 people say yes....

Alan Ruttenberg: surveys room, 9 people say yes.... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:20:08 <uli> Alan, what was the question?

Uli Sattler: Alan, what was the question?

16:20:18 <uli> ...I couldn't understand it

Uli Sattler: ...I couldn't understand it

16:20:27 <sandro> uli, Boris' question.

Sandro Hawke: uli, Boris' question.

16:20:34 <uli> thanks, Sandro

Uli Sattler: thanks, Sandro

16:20:45 <m_schnei> boris: identity problem is key

Boris Motik: identity problem is key

16:21:51 <m_schnei> boris: assumption is that one can map every time to a point on the same time line

Boris Motik: assumption is that one can map every time to a point on the same time line

16:22:23 <m_schnei> pfps: xsd timeline is not compact

Peter Patel-Schneider: xsd timeline is not compact

16:22:38 <sandro> boris: Even if those two things are different, there could still be operators which operate on them.

Boris Motik: Even if those two things are different, there could still be operators which operate on them. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:22:45 <m_schnei> boris: if you tick one sec on the xsd timeline, it may be two secs

Boris Motik: if you tick one sec on the xsd timeline, it may be two secs

16:22:57 <alanr> q+

Alan Ruttenberg: q+

16:23:00 <sandro> (leap seconds representation mess.)

Sandro Hawke: (leap seconds representation mess.)

16:23:14 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me

16:23:14 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted

16:23:31 <m_schnei> bijan: are we on the tuple model?

Bijan Parsia: are we on the tuple model?

16:23:35 <bparsia> zakim, mute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me

16:23:35 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted

16:24:08 <sandro> septuplets?

Sandro Hawke: septuplets?

16:24:10 <m_schnei> alanr: what about the leap seconds?

Alan Ruttenberg: what about the leap seconds?

16:24:43 <m_schnei> alanr: if we handle leaps, than the time ordering might change, problem for reasoning

Alan Ruttenberg: if we handle leaps, than the time ordering might change, problem for reasoning

16:24:43 <sandro> alan: If we handle leap-seconds, then some of our inferences will have to change when more leap-seconds are defined.

Alan Ruttenberg: If we handle leap-seconds, then some of our inferences will have to change when more leap-seconds are defined. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:26:07 <alanr> ack alanr

Alan Ruttenberg: ack alanr

16:26:10 <m_schnei> evan: talks "this monday" as a time, not about "every monday"

Evan Wallace: talks "this monday" as a time, not about "every monday"

16:26:13 <bparsia> q-

Bijan Parsia: q-

16:26:37 <m_schnei> boris: what would be the interpretation of xsd:datetime?

Boris Motik: what would be the interpretation of xsd:datetime?

16:27:02 <sandro> boris: timeline needs to be seconds since some famous point in time.

Boris Motik: timeline needs to be seconds since some famous point in time. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:27:18 <m_schnei> baojie: what about non-christian time (russia, etc)

Jie Bao: what about non-christian time (russia, etc)

16:28:36 <m_schnei> pfps: what about daylight savings?

Peter Patel-Schneider: what about daylight savings?

16:29:34 <m_schnei> ian: was under the impression that there was already a semi-aggreement

Ian Horrocks: was under the impression that there was already a semi-aggreement

16:29:48 <sandro> ian: Time on timeline as our interpretation space, and then simple time constants.

Ian Horrocks: Time on timeline as our interpretation space, and then simple time constants. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:29:53 <m_schnei> ian: that we here only have to talk about what constants, etc

Ian Horrocks: that we here only have to talk about what constants, etc

16:30:10 <uli> +1 to Ian

Uli Sattler: +1 to Ian

16:30:22 <m_schnei> ian: things seem now just to complicated

Ian Horrocks: things seem now just to complicated

16:30:45 <bparsia> Origin -- "As a point of interest, ISO 8601 fixes a reference calendar date to the Gregorian calendar of 1875-05-20 as the date the Convention du Mètre was signed in Paris."

Bijan Parsia: Origin -- "As a point of interest, ISO 8601 fixes a reference calendar date to the Gregorian calendar of 1875-05-20 as the date the Convention du Mètre was signed in Paris."

16:30:50 <m_schnei> ian: let's just talk about constants, and what point on the timeline they denote [FIXME]

Ian Horrocks: let's just talk about constants, and what point on the timeline they denote [FIXME]

16:30:50 <bparsia> +10 to ian

Bijan Parsia: +10 to ian

16:31:00 <pfps> +1 to ian

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 to ian

16:31:24 <sandro> Cute, Bijan

Sandro Hawke: Cute, Bijan

16:31:48 <m_schnei> alan: first thing is question, do we have time points or intervals

Alan Ruttenberg: first thing is question, do we have time points or intervals

16:32:20 <m_schnei> ian: time is still point, represented by eg decimal

Ian Horrocks: time is still point, represented by eg decimal

16:32:44 <m_schnei> pfps: we have continuous timeline, and specify time points on it

Peter Patel-Schneider: we have continuous timeline, and specify time points on it

16:33:30 <sandro> pfps: the timezone and year have to be present, and then the succeeding parts in the tuple ....

Peter Patel-Schneider: the timezone and year have to be present, and then the succeeding parts in the tuple .... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:33:46 <m_schnei> pfps: xsd says "1999" is *end* of "1999", which seems wrong to him

Peter Patel-Schneider: xsd says "1999" is *end* of "1999", which seems wrong to him

16:33:51 <bparsia> Didn't hear all of level 0

Bijan Parsia: Didn't hear all of level 0

16:34:21 <m_schnei> pfps: pointer is XSD LC document

Peter Patel-Schneider: pointer is XSD LC document

16:34:30 <sandro> PROPOSED: We're have a time-on-timeline interpretation of times, with XS date times as literals uses for naming points on that timeline.

PROPOSED: We're have a time-on-timeline interpretation of times, with XS date times as literals uses for naming points on that timeline.

16:34:54 <sandro> PROPOSED: We'll have a time-on-timeline interpretation of times, with XS date times as literals uses for naming points on that timeline.

PROPOSED: We'll have a time-on-timeline interpretation of times, with XS date times as literals uses for naming points on that timeline.

16:35:03 <pfps> XML Schema datatypes current WD http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/

Peter Patel-Schneider: XML Schema datatypes current WD http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/

16:35:04 <m_schnei> ewallace: the way peter cited interpretation of a year would be a bad idea

Evan Wallace: the way peter cited interpretation of a year would be a bad idea

16:35:31 <sandro> PROPOSED: We'll have a time-on-timeline interpretation of times, with XS date times as literals uses for naming points on that timeline (where the XS time is unambiguous -- it must have a timezone).

PROPOSED: We'll have a time-on-timeline interpretation of times, with XS date times as literals uses for naming points on that timeline (where the XS time is unambiguous -- it must have a timezone).

16:35:31 <ekw> +1

Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 23 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Jonathan Rees Jie Bao Rob Shearer Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown Carsten Deborah McGuinness Unknown Karen Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 23 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Jonathan Rees Jie Bao Rob Shearer Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown Carsten Deborah McGuinness Unknown Karen Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown ekw: +1

16:35:33 <msmith> +1

Michael Smith: +1

16:35:46 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me

16:35:46 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted

16:35:46 <baojie> +1

Jie Bao: +1

16:36:06 <IanH> +1

Ian Horrocks: +1

16:36:07 <msmith> not all parts, just top down

Michael Smith: not all parts, just top down

16:36:08 <Zhe> +1

Zhe Wu: +1

16:36:21 <sandro> PROPOSED: We'll have a time-on-timeline interpretation of times, with XS date times as literals uses for naming points on that timeline (where the XS time is unambiguous -- it must have a timezone).     This is a minimum -- we may do more.

PROPOSED: We'll have a time-on-timeline interpretation of times, with XS date times as literals uses for naming points on that timeline (where the XS time is unambiguous -- it must have a timezone). This is a minimum -- we may do more.

16:36:24 <baojie> redraw my vote

Jie Bao: redraw my vote

16:36:26 <baojie> 0

Jie Bao: 0

16:36:46 <Deborah> dlm has joined #owl

Deborah McGuinness: dlm has joined #owl

16:36:47 <uli> +1

Uli Sattler: +1

16:36:52 <bparsia> +1

Bijan Parsia: +1

16:37:13 <sandro> Alan: next we can discuss what to do if there isn't a timezone, etc.

Alan Ruttenberg: next we can discuss what to do if there isn't a timezone, etc. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:37:29 <sandro> Ian: This is sugar for a clone of reals.

Ian Horrocks: This is sugar for a clone of reals. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:37:30 <bparsia> zakim, mute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me

16:37:30 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted

16:38:14 <sandro> pfps: so  tz=ET,year=2008  ===> the time that 2008 starts in Eastern Time.

Peter Patel-Schneider: so tz=ET,year=2008 ===> the time that 2008 starts in Eastern Time. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:39:25 <sandro> msmith: It's gotta be from the top down -- that's been worked out.    gyear stuff.   We just need to say timezone.

Michael Smith: It's gotta be from the top down -- that's been worked out. gyear stuff. We just need to say timezone. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:40:15 <sandro> PROPOSED: We'll have a time-on-timeline interpretation of times, with XS date times as literals uses for naming points on that timeline (where the XS time is unambiguous -- it must have a timezone).     This is a minimum -- we may do more.

PROPOSED: We'll have a time-on-timeline interpretation of times, with XS date times as literals uses for naming points on that timeline (where the XS time is unambiguous -- it must have a timezone). This is a minimum -- we may do more.

16:40:29 <pfps> +1 Bell Labs

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 Bell Labs

16:40:31 <bmotik> +1 Oxford

Boris Motik: +1 Oxford

16:40:33 <sandro> +1 W3C

Sandro Hawke: +1 W3C

16:40:38 <baojie> +1 RPI

Jie Bao: +1 RPI

16:40:40 <Zhe> +1 ORACLE

Zhe Wu: +1 ORACLE

16:40:41 <Achille> +1 IBM

Achille Fokoue: +1 IBM

16:40:42 <m_schnei> +1 FZI

+1 FZI

16:40:43 <ekw> +1 NIST

Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 23 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Jonathan Rees Jie Bao Rob Shearer Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown Carsten Deborah McGuinness Unknown Karen Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 23 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Jonathan Rees Jie Bao Rob Shearer Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown Carsten Deborah McGuinness Unknown Karen Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown ekw: +1 NIST

16:40:46 <jar> +1 Science Commons

Jonathan Rees: +1 Science Commons

16:40:51 <bparsia> one sec

Bijan Parsia: one sec

16:40:56 <msmith> +1 C&P

Michael Smith: +1 C&P

16:41:10 <uli> +1 Manchester

Uli Sattler: +1 Manchester

16:41:28 <sandro> RESOLVED: We'll have a time-on-timeline interpretation of times, with XS date times as literals uses for naming points on that timeline (where the XS time is unambiguous -- it must have a timezone).     This is a minimum -- we may do more.

RESOLVED: We'll have a time-on-timeline interpretation of times, with XS date times as literals uses for naming points on that timeline (where the XS time is unambiguous -- it must have a timezone). This is a minimum -- we may do more.

16:41:46 <m_schnei> alanr: next question is what todo with timezones

Alan Ruttenberg: next question is what todo with timezones

16:42:53 <m_schnei> msmith: would like to interprete a year as an interval, not a point

Michael Smith: would like to interprete a year as an interval, not a point

16:44:00 <bparsia> What's the proposal under discussion?

Bijan Parsia: What's the proposal under discussion?

16:44:17 <m_schnei> boris: xsd interprets a year as a set of timepoints

Boris Motik: xsd interprets a year as a set of timepoints

16:44:42 <sandro> Alan: The proposal is to use a lexical gYear as a way to specific a faceted value of owl:time

Alan Ruttenberg: The proposal is to use a lexical gYear as a way to specific a faceted value of owl:time [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:44:45 <m_schnei> pha: gyear is a set of years

Peter Haase: gyear is a set of years

16:44:50 <m_schnei> boris: and what is a year?

Boris Motik: and what is a year?

16:45:14 <m_schnei> ian: getting too complicated, we should think to not support it

Ian Horrocks: getting too complicated, we should think to not support it

16:45:15 <uli> +1 to Ian

Uli Sattler: +1 to Ian

16:45:46 <msmith> I am basing this view on http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#gYear

Michael Smith: I am basing this view on http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#gYear

16:45:47 <m_schnei> alanr: let's take this out of the discussion

Alan Ruttenberg: let's take this out of the discussion

16:45:56 <sandro> Subtopic: how to handle times without timezones

6.1. how to handle times without timezones

16:46:05 <m_schnei> alanr: next not-timezoned types

Alan Ruttenberg: next not-timezoned types

16:46:12 <bparsia> q+

Bijan Parsia: q+

16:46:24 <m_schnei> alanr: what does a not-timezoned value mean

Alan Ruttenberg: what does a not-timezoned value mean

16:46:46 <m_schnei> baojie: you can not compare two values without timezone

Jie Bao: you can not compare two values without timezone

16:47:14 <sandro> I think non-zoned-times should be erroneous.....

Sandro Hawke: I think non-zoned-times should be erroneous.....

16:47:27 <uli> +1 to sandro

Uli Sattler: +1 to sandro

16:47:34 <bparsia> +1 to sandro

Bijan Parsia: +1 to sandro

16:47:35 <bparsia> zakim, ack me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, ack me

16:47:35 <Zakim> unmuting bparsia

Zakim IRC Bot: unmuting bparsia

16:47:36 <sandro> ack bparsia

Sandro Hawke: ack bparsia

16:47:37 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue

Zakim IRC Bot: I see no one on the speaker queue

16:48:19 <bparsia> zakim, mute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me

16:48:19 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted

16:48:22 <m_schnei> bijan: whatever we decide is wrong for some people, so let's ever have a time zone

Bijan Parsia: whatever we decide is wrong for some people, so let's ever have a time zone

16:48:28 <Deborah> for my applications, if i can say this time point is within a time range (and i am willing to put a time zone on it), i can make things work

Deborah McGuinness: for my applications, if i can say this time point is within a time range (and i am willing to put a time zone on it), i can make things work

16:49:08 <bparsia> There are some uses of gyear on swoogle:

Bijan Parsia: There are some uses of gyear on swoogle:

16:49:08 <bparsia> http://swoogle.umbc.edu/index.php?option=com_swoogle_service&service=cache&view=raw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fspire.umbc.edu%2Fontologies%2FSpireEcoConcepts.owl

Bijan Parsia: http://swoogle.umbc.edu/index.php?option=com_swoogle_service&service=cache&view=raw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fspire.umbc.edu%2Fontologies%2FSpireEcoConcepts.owl

16:49:13 <bparsia>   <owl:DatatypeProperty rdf:ID="publicationYear">

Bijan Parsia: <owl:DatatypeProperty rdf:ID="publicationYear">

16:49:13 <bparsia>     <rdfs:domain rdf:resource="#Study"/>

Bijan Parsia: <rdfs:domain rdf:resource="#Study"/>

16:49:13 <bparsia>     <rdfs:range rdf:resource="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#gYear"/>

Bijan Parsia: <rdfs:range rdf:resource="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#gYear"/>

16:49:14 <bparsia>     <rdf:type rdf:resource="http://www.w3.org/2002/07/owl#FunctionalProperty"/>

Bijan Parsia: <rdf:type rdf:resource="http://www.w3.org/2002/07/owl#FunctionalProperty"/>

16:49:14 <bparsia>   </owl:DatatypeProperty>

Bijan Parsia: </owl:DatatypeProperty>

16:49:42 <baojie> my proposal: treat not-timezoned time as an interval of 24 hours

Jie Bao: my proposal: treat not-timezoned time as an interval of 24 hours

16:50:03 <sandro> jar: think about what you're going to tell people to do with publication dates like "2003".    Is that 2003-01-01 00:00:01 UTC  ... or what?

Jonathan Rees: think about what you're going to tell people to do with publication dates like "2003". Is that 2003-01-01 00:00:01 UTC ... or what? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:50:12 <Deborah> uli - that is what my applications do - but i think that is up to the application layer

Deborah McGuinness: uli - that is what my applications do - but i think that is up to the application layer

16:50:46 <uli> dlm, this is ok as well: either defaulting or adding upon load...

Uli Sattler: dlm, this is ok as well: either defaulting or adding upon load...

16:50:51 <m_schnei> boris: problem, if something is a FunctionalProperty, and one of the values does not have a timezone, then we have a problem

Boris Motik: problem, if something is a FunctionalProperty, and one of the values does not have a timezone, then we have a problem

16:51:48 <m_schnei> pha: question, is it already decided if owl 2 will have to be compatible with xsd

Peter Haase: question, is it already decided if owl 2 will have to be compatible with xsd

16:52:17 <IanH> pha: compatible with xsd 1 or 1.1?

Peter Haase: compatible with xsd 1 or 1.1? [ Scribe Assist by Ian Horrocks ]

16:52:32 <sandro> alan: proposals -- (1) "put them on UTC",  (2) "put them on a different time line",  (3) "reject as error"

Alan Ruttenberg: proposals -- (1) "put them on UTC", (2) "put them on a different time line", (3) "reject as error" [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:53:07 <Deborah> vote no for (3)

Deborah McGuinness: vote no for (3)

16:53:14 <m_schnei> sandro: we cannot say "compatible with 1.1", since it's not a rec yet

Sandro Hawke: we cannot say "compatible with 1.1", since it's not a rec yet

16:53:28 <jar> you could cite a particular draft of 1.1

Jonathan Rees: you could cite a particular draft of 1.1

16:53:39 <sandro> sandro: we shouldn't decide to rely on 1.1 yet, since they might stall and we don't want to wait for them.

Sandro Hawke: we shouldn't decide to rely on 1.1 yet, since they might stall and we don't want to wait for them. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:53:55 <sandro> no, jar, you can't cite a working draft in a normative reference.

Sandro Hawke: no, jar, you can't cite a working draft in a normative reference.

16:54:29 <jar> oh well.

Jonathan Rees: oh well.

16:54:31 <m_schnei> boris: discussion about UTC [scribe didn't get it]

Boris Motik: discussion about UTC [scribe didn't get it]

16:54:33 <Carsten> goodbye from this timezone. Have to leave.

Unknown Carsten: goodbye from this timezone. Have to leave.

16:54:35 <sandro> dlm, what's your problem with reject-as-error?

Sandro Hawke: dlm, what's your problem with reject-as-error?

16:54:46 <Zakim> -Carsten

Zakim IRC Bot: -Carsten

16:55:16 <sandro> msmith: leave it to tools to convert to UTC or local time zone.

Michael Smith: leave it to tools to convert to UTC or local time zone. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:55:23 <m_schnei> msmith: not reject-as-error, but implementations may clean it up

Michael Smith: not reject-as-error, but implementations may clean it up

16:55:31 <Deborah> was just thinking of bijan's point - i retract my objection.  what i do not want is for people not to be able to use owl if they are working with relative readings and they do not know the time zone.

Deborah McGuinness: was just thinking of bijan's point - i retract my objection. what i do not want is for people not to be able to use owl if they are working with relative readings and they do not know the time zone.

16:55:48 <m_schnei> msmith: automatic-UTC would be against XSD

Michael Smith: automatic-UTC would be against XSD

16:55:50 <sandro> sandro: I'd object to "no-time-zone" == "UTC".

Sandro Hawke: I'd object to "no-time-zone" == "UTC". [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:55:54 <Deborah> i suppose they could work with an application layer putting in a place holder utc for this and then updat later if required.

Deborah McGuinness: i suppose they could work with an application layer putting in a place holder utc for this and then updat later if required.

16:56:02 <uli> 1 or 3 are equally fine with me

Uli Sattler: 1 or 3 are equally fine with me

16:56:10 <uli> Sandro, why?

Uli Sattler: Sandro, why?

16:56:17 <sandro> pfps: "Tools MAY do sometihng reasonable, adding a time zone, with a warning"

Peter Patel-Schneider: "Tools MAY do sometihng reasonable, adding a time zone, with a warning" [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:56:29 <bparsia> I like 3

Bijan Parsia: I like 3

16:56:39 <uli> I like 1 and 3

Uli Sattler: I like 1 and 3

16:56:51 <uli> ...and I like Peter's suggestion

Uli Sattler: ...and I like Peter's suggestion

16:57:14 <pfps> PROPOSAL: datetime literals with missing timezones are not in the syntax; tools MAY insert a timezone, but SHOULD produce a warning if they do so

PROPOSED: datetime literals with missing timezones are not in the syntax; tools MAY insert a timezone, but SHOULD produce a warning if they do so

16:57:18 <bmotik> +1 Oxford

Boris Motik: +1 Oxford

16:57:20 <Achille> +1 IBM

Achille Fokoue: +1 IBM

16:57:26 <pfps> +1 Bell Labs

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 Bell Labs

16:57:28 <baojie> -1

Jie Bao: -1

16:57:33 <ekw> +1

Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 23 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Jonathan Rees Jie Bao Rob Shearer Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown Carsten Deborah McGuinness Unknown Karen Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 23 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Jonathan Rees Jie Bao Rob Shearer Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown Carsten Deborah McGuinness Unknown Karen Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown ekw: +1

16:57:37 <sandro> +1 W3C

Sandro Hawke: +1 W3C

16:57:41 <msmith> +1 C&P

Michael Smith: +1 C&P

16:57:42 <uli> +1 Manchester

Uli Sattler: +1 Manchester

16:57:58 <m_schnei> 0 FZI

0 FZI

16:58:15 <Zhe> +0.5 ORACLE

Zhe Wu: +0.5 ORACLE

16:58:40 <jar> +0.5 Science Commons to make the total integral

Jonathan Rees: +0.5 Science Commons to make the total integral

16:59:23 <Zakim> -uli

Zakim IRC Bot: -uli

16:59:30 <Zakim> -bparsia

Zakim IRC Bot: -bparsia

16:59:38 <bparsia> zakim, bijan

Bijan Parsia: zakim, bijan

16:59:38 <Zakim> I don't understand 'bijan', bparsia

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'bijan', bparsia

16:59:40 <bparsia> er

Bijan Parsia: er

16:59:41 <Zakim> -rob

Zakim IRC Bot: -rob

16:59:54 <Deborah> note sure what a half vote exactly means but that seems to capture it for me

Deborah McGuinness: note sure what a half vote exactly means but that seems to capture it for me

17:04:10 <uli> anybody still there?

Uli Sattler: anybody still there?

17:04:26 <uli> will we do n-ary after lunch or annotations?

Uli Sattler: will we do n-ary after lunch or annotations?

17:04:56 <uli> alan, are you still there?

Uli Sattler: alan, are you still there?

17:31:57 <uli> thanks, Peter ;)

(No events recorded for 27 minutes)

Uli Sattler: thanks, Peter ;)

18:02:53 <m_schnei> ian: we have to decide whether to proceed on datatypes

(No events recorded for 30 minutes)

Ian Horrocks: we have to decide whether to proceed on datatypes

18:03:08 <m_schnei> alanr: n-aries

Alan Ruttenberg: n-aries

18:04:10 <Zakim> +??P3

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P3

18:04:12 <Zakim> -??P3

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P3

18:04:12 <Zakim> +??P3

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P3

18:04:15 <m_schnei> ian: jie, what is the reason why you said "no" in the straw poll

Ian Horrocks: jie, what is the reason why you said "no" in the straw poll

18:04:17 <bijan> zakim, ??p3 is me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, ??p3 is me

18:04:17 <Zakim> +bijan; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +bijan; got it

18:04:22 <bijan> zakim, mute me

Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me

18:04:22 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should now be muted

18:04:36 <Zakim> +??P9

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P9

18:04:40 <m_schnei> jie: my proposal is to support partial time types

Jie Bao: my proposal is to support partial time types

18:04:42 <pfps> ScribeNick: bmotik

(Scribe set to Boris Motik)

18:05:01 <bmotik> Topic: Handling of time zones in xsd:dateTime

7. Handling of time zones in xsd:dateTime

18:05:02 <bmotik> baojie: A constant wihtout a time zone is a range, not a value

Jie Bao: A constant wihtout a time zone is a range, not a value

18:05:16 <m_schnei> baojie: missing time zone is syntactic sugar for continuous interval

Jie Bao: missing time zone is syntactic sugar for continuous interval [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ]

18:05:34 <bijan> What continuous interval?

Bijan Parsia: What continuous interval?

18:05:48 <baojie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0421.html

Jie Bao: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0421.html

18:06:04 <uli> ? same question as bijan

Uli Sattler: ? same question as bijan

18:06:42 <bijan> I'm against this

Bijan Parsia: I'm against this

18:06:52 <bijan> I think

Bijan Parsia: I think

18:06:57 <uli> me to - we have an intervall being a default for a time point?

Uli Sattler: me to - we have an intervall being a default for a time point?

18:07:07 <bijan> We have to *introduce* intervals?

Bijan Parsia: We have to *introduce* intervals?

18:07:38 <bmotik> Achille: This seems confusing

Achille Fokoue: This seems confusing

18:07:49 <bmotik> Achille: This makes the value space of xsd:dateTime confusing

Achille Fokoue: This makes the value space of xsd:dateTime confusing

18:07:55 <bijan> This, again, can be handled by preprocessors

Bijan Parsia: This, again, can be handled by preprocessors

18:08:08 <bmotik> Achille: The value space of xsd:dateTime would contain both points and sets of points

Achille Fokoue: The value space of xsd:dateTime would contain both points and sets of points

18:08:15 <pfps> so two values from the same file like <today,1pm> <today,2pm> are non-comparable?

Peter Patel-Schneider: so two values from the same file like <today,1pm> <today,2pm> are non-comparable?

18:08:37 <uli> sure, if they come from different files?

Uli Sattler: sure, if they come from different files?

18:08:52 <bmotik> msmith: Saying hasValue("some time without a time zone") would give you a range of values rather than a single value

Michael Smith: Saying hasValue("some time without a time zone") would give you a range of values rather than a single value

18:09:39 <bmotik> bijan: This is not an imporvement over the existing proposal

Bijan Parsia: This is not an imporvement over the existing proposal

18:09:43 <bmotik> The analogy to integer intervals is broken because for integer intervals, you are using them for data ranges, not data values

The analogy to integer intervals is broken because for integer intervals, you are using them for data ranges, not data values

18:10:01 <bmotik> bijan: The existing proposal already allows you to do some reasonable stuff with missing time zones

Bijan Parsia: The existing proposal already allows you to do some reasonable stuff with missing time zones

18:10:24 <bmotik> baojie: Fully specified values should be specified as values

Jie Bao: Fully specified values should be specified as values

18:10:41 <bmotik> baojie: Partially specified values should be interpreted as a range

Jie Bao: Partially specified values should be interpreted as a range

18:10:51 <bijan> For example, on throwing a syntax error, a tool can say, "You've not given a time zone. Either supply on or insert the following expression which covays that you don't know."

Bijan Parsia: For example, on throwing a syntax error, a tool can say, "You've not given a time zone. Either supply on or insert the following expression which covays that you don't know."

18:11:02 <bmotik> IanH: But then you get into the "every Monday" case

Ian Horrocks: But then you get into the "every Monday" case

18:11:11 <bmotik> baojie: Interval is the most important

Jie Bao: Interval is the most important

18:11:34 <bmotik> m_schnei: Test case: we have the time 20:11; what does it mean?

Michael Schneider: Test case: we have the time 20:11; what does it mean?

18:12:25 <bmotik> baojie: I am not clear about this either

Jie Bao: I am not clear about this either

18:13:17 <bmotik> baojie: My proposal doesn't address this case

Jie Bao: My proposal doesn't address this case

18:13:42 <bmotik> baojie: It addresses only top-down partially specified time dates and the interpretation is the interval

Jie Bao: It addresses only top-down partially specified time dates and the interpretation is the interval

18:14:07 <bmotik> baojie: So just "July" is not allowed; you could say something like "July 2007"

Jie Bao: So just "July" is not allowed; you could say something like "July 2007"

18:14:48 <bmotik> Achille: For that kind of duration we already have in XML Schema gYearMonth.

Achille Fokoue: For that kind of duration we already have in XML Schema gYearMonth.

18:14:59 <bmotik> Achille: These are completely different datatypes

Achille Fokoue: These are completely different datatypes

18:15:21 <bmotik> Achille: These specify durations, not time points (which is the main thing that we describe using xsd:dateTime)

Achille Fokoue: These specify durations, not time points (which is the main thing that we describe using xsd:dateTime)

18:16:28 <bmotik> Achille: We would be thus inventing a new datatype

Achille Fokoue: We would be thus inventing a new datatype

18:16:50 <bmotik> IanH: This is not a legal xsd:dateTime value in XML Schema

Ian Horrocks: This is not a legal xsd:dateTime value in XML Schema

18:17:09 <bmotik> IanH: If we want to do that, we should use the appropriate datatypes from XML Schema

Ian Horrocks: If we want to do that, we should use the appropriate datatypes from XML Schema

18:18:10 <bmotik> alanr: It seems that we are confusing the problem of partially specified date-times from the problem of interpreting missing time zones

Alan Ruttenberg: It seems that we are confusing the problem of partially specified date-times from the problem of interpreting missing time zones

18:18:58 <bmotik> alanr: We might interpret missing time zones as being existentially quantified

Alan Ruttenberg: We might interpret missing time zones as being existentially quantified

18:19:12 <bmotik> IanH: My feeling is that all this sounds pretty horrible and messy

Ian Horrocks: My feeling is that all this sounds pretty horrible and messy

18:19:20 <bmotik> IanH: Implementors feedback?

Ian Horrocks: Implementors feedback?

18:19:59 <bmotik> sandro: From a user's perspective, if I don't put time zone in, I'm being lazy and I shouldn't be surprised if I am getting a wrong answer

Sandro Hawke: From a user's perspective, if I don't put time zone in, I'm being lazy and I shouldn't be surprised if I am getting a wrong answer

18:20:17 <bmotik> baojie: What if the time zone information is lost?

Jie Bao: What if the time zone information is lost?

18:20:31 <bmotik> sandro: Then the computer has to ask me and fill in the missing time zone

Sandro Hawke: Then the computer has to ask me and fill in the missing time zone

18:20:42 <bijan> If time zone inforamtion is lost, someone has to make a choice and that's application dependent

Bijan Parsia: If time zone inforamtion is lost, someone has to make a choice and that's application dependent

18:20:46 <bijan> Perahps I'm happy defaulting to UTC

Bijan Parsia: Perahps I'm happy defaulting to UTC

18:20:52 <bmotik> baojie: The tool should be responsible for checking for a missing time zone

Jie Bao: The tool should be responsible for checking for a missing time zone

18:20:52 <bijan> perhaps I'm happy defaulting to my time zone

Bijan Parsia: perhaps I'm happy defaulting to my time zone

18:21:01 <bijan> Perhaps I'm happy adding an interval

Bijan Parsia: Perhaps I'm happy adding an interval

18:21:35 <bmotik> baojie: I need to rethink this

Jie Bao: I need to rethink this

18:21:51 <bmotik> IanH: We can try to have a new vote by the end of the F2F

Ian Horrocks: We can try to have a new vote by the end of the F2F

18:22:42 <bmotik> Zhe: Oracle will always attach the session time zone to date-time literals that miss the time zone

Zhe Wu: Oracle will always attach the session time zone to date-time literals that miss the time zone

18:23:01 <bmotik> Zhe: You can always set the session time zone programmatically

Zhe Wu: You can always set the session time zone programmatically

18:23:28 <bmotik> m_schnei: Oracle never compares date-times with time zone with date-times without time zones, right?

Michael Schneider: Oracle never compares date-times with time zone with date-times without time zones, right?

18:23:33 <bmotik> Zhe: Right

Zhe Wu: Right

18:24:00 <bmotik> Topic: Annotations

8. Annotations

18:24:01 <bmotik> IanH: We will come back to nary later (as time permits)

Ian Horrocks: We will come back to nary later (as time permits)

18:24:35 <bmotik> IanH: There is a basic proposal for annotations on the table plus an extension

Ian Horrocks: There is a basic proposal for annotations on the table plus an extension

18:25:00 <bmotik> alanr: The idea of the added proposal was to allow for separate reasoning with annotations

Alan Ruttenberg: The idea of the added proposal was to allow for separate reasoning with annotations

18:25:36 <bmotik> IanH: So this is an extension of Bijan's proposal allowing for serialization of Bijan's proposal plus annotations on annotations

Ian Horrocks: So this is an extension of Bijan's proposal allowing for serialization of Bijan's proposal plus annotations on annotations

18:25:47 <bmotik> pfps: But this is missing BLOBs

Peter Patel-Schneider: But this is missing BLOBs

18:27:37 <bijan> Blobs exists to avoid having to name axioms

Bijan Parsia: Blobs exists to avoid having to name axioms

18:30:47 <bmotik> alanr: The essential idea is that there is two separate reasoning spaces for reasoning

Alan Ruttenberg: The essential idea is that there is two separate reasoning spaces for reasoning

18:30:57 <bmotik> alanr: The domain space and the annotation space

Alan Ruttenberg: The domain space and the annotation space

18:31:04 <bmotik> alanr: No interaction without it

Alan Ruttenberg: No interaction without it

18:31:18 <bmotik> alanr: Bijan supported an abstract syntax for it

Alan Ruttenberg: Bijan supported an abstract syntax for it

18:32:01 <bmotik> IanH: Before we go through the proposal, I'd like to see what we think of annotations in general

Ian Horrocks: Before we go through the proposal, I'd like to see what we think of annotations in general

18:32:22 <bmotik> IanH: Do we think that the basic idea of rich annotation spaces is a good idea and do we want to have it in OWL?

Ian Horrocks: Do we think that the basic idea of rich annotation spaces is a good idea and do we want to have it in OWL?

18:32:46 <bmotik> m_schnei: The idea that we want to have some processing on annotations is a good idea, but seems out of scope of this WG

Michael Schneider: The idea that we want to have some processing on annotations is a good idea, but seems out of scope of this WG

18:32:51 <uli> I have heard Alan Rector and others require richer annotations a lot (annotation axioms, annotating annotations)

Uli Sattler: I have heard Alan Rector and others require richer annotations a lot (annotation axioms, annotating annotations)

18:33:08 <bijan> Why and how is it out of the scope of OWL? What was the reasoning for that?

Bijan Parsia: Why and how is it out of the scope of OWL? What was the reasoning for that?

18:33:25 <bmotik> msmith: I disagree. There are lots of ontologies that contain annotation property hierarchies and this proposal would allow us to accept more of those.

Michael Smith: I disagree. There are lots of ontologies that contain annotation property hierarchies and this proposal would allow us to accept more of those.

18:33:36 <Zhe> Mike, could you give an example or a pointer?

Zhe Wu: Mike, could you give an example or a pointer?

18:33:37 <bijan> Dublin Core is the most common, zhe

Bijan Parsia: Dublin Core is the most common, zhe

18:33:38 <bijan> And just recently: http://www.w3.org/mid/D98C2F92-76A0-441F-BF8B-D901DF12A73B@cyganiak.deD901DF12A73B@cyganiak.de

Bijan Parsia: And just recently: http://www.w3.org/mid/D98C2F92-76A0-441F-BF8B-D901DF12A73B@cyganiak.deD901DF12A73B@cyganiak.de

18:33:39 <bmotik> bijan: I didn't understand the scope argument

Bijan Parsia: I didn't understand the scope argument

18:33:58 <bmotik> bijan: People building large ontologies often want to have complex annotations

Bijan Parsia: People building large ontologies often want to have complex annotations

18:34:37 <bmotik> Zhe: Can you give an example of annotation property hierarchies?

Zhe Wu: Can you give an example of annotation property hierarchies?

18:34:41 <bmotik> alanr: SKOS, FOAF

Alan Ruttenberg: SKOS, FOAF

18:36:13 <msmith> skos at http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/vocabs creates subproperties of rdfs:label

Michael Smith: skos at http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/vocabs creates subproperties of rdfs:label

18:36:55 <bijan> subproperties of rdfs:label are common for reasons given: http://www.w3.org/mid/3394C7CF-B080-45AD-AE7C-B498FC6C8B3E@cs.man.ac.ukB498FC6C8B3E@cs.man.ac.uk

Bijan Parsia: subproperties of rdfs:label are common for reasons given: http://www.w3.org/mid/3394C7CF-B080-45AD-AE7C-B498FC6C8B3E@cs.man.ac.ukB498FC6C8B3E@cs.man.ac.uk

18:34:50 <bmotik> alanr: In OWL we can't handle such things

Alan Ruttenberg: In OWL we can't handle such things

18:35:48 <bmotik> bmotik: If this turns out to be something simple, than OK; if this turns to be complex, than this may be out of scope

Boris Motik: If this turns out to be something simple, than OK; if this turns to be complex, than this may be out of scope

18:36:08 <bmotik> alanr: I tried to define what is the bare minimum of the functionality

Alan Ruttenberg: I tried to define what is the bare minimum of the functionality

18:36:26 <bmotik> alanr: My proposal is somewhat simpler than Bijan's

Alan Ruttenberg: My proposal is somewhat simpler than Bijan's

18:36:58 <bmotik> alanr: I tried to reduce the complexity of the proposal

Alan Ruttenberg: I tried to reduce the complexity of the proposal

18:37:30 <bmotik> bijan: The complexity is all in the RDF serialization.

Bijan Parsia: The complexity is all in the RDF serialization.

18:37:53 <bmotik> bijan: All of these things are rather easy in all other linear syntaxes

Bijan Parsia: All of these things are rather easy in all other linear syntaxes

18:38:06 <bmotik> bijan: The multiple file proposal adds a complication

Bijan Parsia: The multiple file proposal adds a complication

18:38:58 <bmotik> IanH: Alan's proposal is based on your proposal, but simplified.

Ian Horrocks: Alan's proposal is based on your proposal, but simplified.

18:39:13 <bmotik> IanH: Is that a simplification too far from your point of view?

Ian Horrocks: Is that a simplification too far from your point of view?

18:39:23 <bmotik> IanH: Do you think that Alan's simplification might be enough?

Ian Horrocks: Do you think that Alan's simplification might be enough?

18:39:36 <bmotik> bijan: I didn't solve the nesting of annotations in my proposal

Bijan Parsia: I didn't solve the nesting of annotations in my proposal

18:40:44 <bmotik> alanr: It might be possible to take the second blob from the other file and put it into the first file

Alan Ruttenberg: It might be possible to take the second blob from the other file and put it into the first file

18:40:51 <bmotik> alanr: as a literal.

Alan Ruttenberg: as a literal.

18:41:16 <Deborah> i would use the ability to be able to annotate annotations - I need that in my explanation / inference web work

Deborah McGuinness: i would use the ability to be able to annotate annotations - I need that in my explanation / inference web work

18:41:25 <bmotik> alanr: If we don't go to rich annotations, I'd like to go back and put certain things into the spec so that we have some of that functionality

Alan Ruttenberg: If we don't go to rich annotations, I'd like to go back and put certain things into the spec so that we have some of that functionality

18:41:58 <bmotik> bijan: Putting things into one big literal is much worse than having lots of small literals

Bijan Parsia: Putting things into one big literal is much worse than having lots of small literals

18:42:22 <bijan> It's on the proposal page

Bijan Parsia: It's on the proposal page

18:42:39 <bmotik> bmotik: Could someone specify the use cases and present an overview of the two proposals?

Boris Motik: Could someone specify the use cases and present an overview of the two proposals?

18:43:47 <bmotik> alanr: I'm taking inspiration from Boris's et al. paper and from Bijan's proposal

Alan Ruttenberg: I'm taking inspiration from Boris's et al. paper and from Bijan's proposal

18:44:16 <bmotik> alanr: I didn't include from Boris's proposal the reified versions of axioms

Alan Ruttenberg: I didn't include from Boris's proposal the reified versions of axioms

18:44:32 <bmotik> alanr: From Bijan's, I used the idea of multiple annotation spaces

Alan Ruttenberg: From Bijan's, I used the idea of multiple annotation spaces

18:45:38 <bmotik> alanr: presents http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Annotation_system_2

Alan Ruttenberg: presents http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Annotation_system_2

18:45:49 <bmotik> boris: alan, can you give an example

Boris Motik: alan, can you give an example

18:46:25 <bmotik> alanr: we have a single document

Alan Ruttenberg: we have a single document

18:47:22 <bmotik> alanr: we have all the axioms, and a few more things

Alan Ruttenberg: we have all the axioms, and a few more things

18:48:11 <bmotik> alanr: ... the annotation stuff goes then in the second document

Alan Ruttenberg: ... the annotation stuff goes then in the second document

18:48:37 <bmotik> boris: what should be put in the structural spec

Boris Motik: what should be put in the structural spec

18:49:34 <bmotik> alanr: reasoning about the second document's content doesn't affect / isn't affected by the content of the first

Alan Ruttenberg: reasoning about the second document's content doesn't affect / isn't affected by the content of the first

18:50:46 <bmotik> alanr: also, we can have types/parts of e.g. properties, which do not have any affect on the first document

Alan Ruttenberg: also, we can have types/parts of e.g. properties, which do not have any affect on the first document

18:51:12 <bmotik> alanr: ... e.g. we want data properties

Alan Ruttenberg: ... e.g. we want data properties

18:52:06 <bmotik> alanr: we also need to make clear which ontology is annotated by the annotation space, so we need refer the name of the first document [FIXME]

Alan Ruttenberg: we also need to make clear which ontology is annotated by the annotation space, so we need refer the name of the first document [FIXME]

18:52:13 <bmotik> IanH: This is starting to sound scary

Ian Horrocks: This is starting to sound scary

18:52:16 <bijan> I get scared at the naming bit; this makes hand authoring nearly impossible

Bijan Parsia: I get scared at the naming bit; this makes hand authoring nearly impossible

18:53:08 <bmotik> m_schnei: In the second document, you actually have assertions such as "This proporty is a data property"

Michael Schneider: In the second document, you actually have assertions such as "This proporty is a data property"

18:53:29 <bmotik> m_schnei: So there actually is some OWL semantics in the second document; however, this doesn't affect the first document

Michael Schneider: So there actually is some OWL semantics in the second document; however, this doesn't affect the first document

18:56:54 <bmotik> m_schnei: This might have problems in OWL Full

Michael Schneider: This might have problems in OWL Full

19:01:52 <bmotik> alanr: (completes his description of the proposal)

Alan Ruttenberg: (completes his description of the proposal)

19:02:25 <bmotik> bijan: If we simplify the proposal to the degree that Alan talked about, we then can use multiple literas inside one XML file

Bijan Parsia: If we simplify the proposal to the degree that Alan talked about, we then can use multiple literas inside one XML file

19:02:33 <bmotik> bijan: This significantly simplifies serialization

Bijan Parsia: This significantly simplifies serialization

19:03:01 <bmotik> bijan: If we're going to simplify, we can simplify it like that

Bijan Parsia: If we're going to simplify, we can simplify it like that

19:03:33 <bmotik> bijan: We don't have the right kind of stuff in RDF

Bijan Parsia: We don't have the right kind of stuff in RDF

19:03:53 <bmotik> bijan: We might specify things for other syntaxes and wait for RDF until they extend the language

Bijan Parsia: We might specify things for other syntaxes and wait for RDF until they extend the language

19:04:20 <bmotik> bijan: such as named graphs

Bijan Parsia: such as named graphs

19:04:52 <bmotik> bijan: We might provide a decent target for RDF people as to what they might want to taget

Bijan Parsia: We might provide a decent target for RDF people as to what they might want to taget

19:06:26 <bmotik> bmotik: What is the use case?

Boris Motik: What is the use case?

19:06:52 <bmotik> bmotik: If we want to say sub-annotation-property-of, why don't we do just that?

Boris Motik: If we want to say sub-annotation-property-of, why don't we do just that?

19:07:06 <bmotik> pfps: Bijan's proposal is concrete but there is no serialization yet

Peter Patel-Schneider: Bijan's proposal is concrete but there is no serialization yet

19:07:45 <bmotik> alanr: My proposal says how things get fed into reasoners

Alan Ruttenberg: My proposal says how things get fed into reasoners

19:08:04 <bmotik> pfps: Bijan's proposal says that you can use any reasoner to interpret the ontology

Peter Patel-Schneider: Bijan's proposal says that you can use any reasoner to interpret the ontology

19:08:24 <bmotik> pfps: Bijan's proposal conceptually creates a new document and reasons only over that

Peter Patel-Schneider: Bijan's proposal conceptually creates a new document and reasons only over that

19:08:55 <bmotik> IanH: Bijan seems to agree that his proposal is difficult to serialize

Ian Horrocks: Bijan seems to agree that his proposal is difficult to serialize

19:09:03 <bmotik> pfps: Multiple annotation spaces make this tricky

Peter Patel-Schneider: Multiple annotation spaces make this tricky

19:09:18 <bmotik> Bijan: In some sense you can do it.

Bijan Parsia: In some sense you can do it.

19:09:27 <bmotik> Bijan: I don't think it is uglier than this proposal.

Bijan Parsia: I don't think it is uglier than this proposal.

19:10:05 <bmotik> Bijan: I don't understand the advantage of Alan's proposal other than it says that he has two files which makes it clear that they are interpreted separately

Bijan Parsia: I don't understand the advantage of Alan's proposal other than it says that he has two files which makes it clear that they are interpreted separately

19:10:25 <bmotik> Bijan: Whatever we do with RDF, it'll be unpleasant.

Bijan Parsia: Whatever we do with RDF, it'll be unpleasant.

19:11:10 <bmotik> m_schnei: We might allow for some syntax (subannotation property) without saying what the semantics is

Michael Schneider: We might allow for some syntax (subannotation property) without saying what the semantics is

19:11:12 <bijan> And would we have trouble with punning?

Bijan Parsia: And would we have trouble with punning?

19:11:16 <bmotik> alanr: We care about semantics

Alan Ruttenberg: We care about semantics

19:11:50 <bmotik> IanH: If we factor in the time line, all of this sounds completely infeasible to me

Ian Horrocks: If we factor in the time line, all of this sounds completely infeasible to me

19:11:54 <bijan> I'm happy to propose an rdf serialization

Bijan Parsia: I'm happy to propose an rdf serialization

19:12:08 <bmotik> IanH: It sounds compleicated, we don't understand it precisely, the serialization is complex...

Ian Horrocks: It sounds compleicated, we don't understand it precisely, the serialization is complex...

19:12:35 <bmotik> sandro: Bijan suggested that we might go with the proposal and forget about the serialization for the moment

Sandro Hawke: Bijan suggested that we might go with the proposal and forget about the serialization for the moment

19:13:18 <bmotik> sandro: How much of this would be simpler if we didn't try to fit things into the same document?

Sandro Hawke: How much of this would be simpler if we didn't try to fit things into the same document?

19:13:24 <bmotik> alanr: It seems much simpler to it

Alan Ruttenberg: It seems much simpler to it

19:13:57 <bmotik> IanH: I heard during the presentation that people were really confused

Ian Horrocks: I heard during the presentation that people were really confused

19:14:24 <bmotik> sandro: Maybe we should try for you to explain this to one or two people first...

Sandro Hawke: Maybe we should try for you to explain this to one or two people first...

19:14:41 <uli> perhaps we could see whether people want rich annotations with semantics at all?

Uli Sattler: perhaps we could see whether people want rich annotations with semantics at all?

19:15:07 <bmotik> pfps: I pointed out some things that I didn't understand

Peter Patel-Schneider: I pointed out some things that I didn't understand

19:15:08 <uli> and how much not having a pretty rdf serialization would matter

Uli Sattler: and how much not having a pretty rdf serialization would matter

19:15:42 <uli> Boris, we pointed to skos and foaf. More concrete than this?

Uli Sattler: Boris, we pointed to skos and foaf. More concrete than this?

19:16:00 <uli> plus annotation on annotations?

Uli Sattler: plus annotation on annotations?

19:16:08 <uli> simple would be beautiful, Boris!

Uli Sattler: simple would be beautiful, Boris!

19:16:28 <bmotik> alanr: I came up with a mixed proposal

Alan Ruttenberg: I came up with a mixed proposal

19:16:39 <bmotik> alanr: There are use cases, that's clear

Alan Ruttenberg: There are use cases, that's clear

19:16:46 <bmotik> bijan: I have a proposal

Bijan Parsia: I have a proposal

19:17:06 <bmotik> bijan: I would try to capture as much as possible of Alan's proposal in one file

Bijan Parsia: I would try to capture as much as possible of Alan's proposal in one file

19:17:46 <uli> plus some transitivity

Uli Sattler: plus some transitivity

19:18:03 <bmotik> bmotik: I'd like to understand what reasoning we need to do

Boris Motik: I'd like to understand what reasoning we need to do

19:18:28 <bmotik> alanr: I want not to aggravate users by leaving out the annotations

Alan Ruttenberg: I want not to aggravate users by leaving out the annotations

19:18:31 <uli> +1 to alanr that richer annotations are really important

Uli Sattler: +1 to alanr that richer annotations are really important

19:18:58 <IanH> getting finished is also important!

Ian Horrocks: getting finished is also important!

19:19:17 <uli> yes, Ian

Uli Sattler: yes, Ian

19:19:11 <bmotik> m_schnei: In SKOS, it has been said 50 times that it is an OWL Full language

Michael Schneider: In SKOS, it has been said 50 times that it is an OWL Full language

19:19:30 <bmotik> m_schnei: If we can change OWL such that SKOS falls into OWL-DL, that'd be a success

Michael Schneider: If we can change OWL such that SKOS falls into OWL-DL, that'd be a success

19:20:35 <bmotik> IanH: I see that annotations are importat, but this is supposed to be a part of the core spec

Ian Horrocks: I see that annotations are importat, but this is supposed to be a part of the core spec

19:20:47 <bmotik> IanH: We didn't get very far with this in 9 months

Ian Horrocks: We didn't get very far with this in 9 months

19:21:09 <bmotik> alanr: We didn't make sure that there is a concrete proposal for this in due time

Alan Ruttenberg: We didn't make sure that there is a concrete proposal for this in due time

19:21:22 <pha> from http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-skos-reference-20080609/ : "skos:prefLabel, skos:altLabel and skos:hiddenLabel are each instances of owl:DatatypeProperty."

Peter Haase: from http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-skos-reference-20080609/ : "skos:prefLabel, skos:altLabel and skos:hiddenLabel are each instances of owl:DatatypeProperty."

19:21:49 <uli> Boris, does this give us annotations of annotations?

Uli Sattler: Boris, does this give us annotations of annotations?

19:22:08 <bmotik> bmotik: I have a simple proposal

Boris Motik: I have a simple proposal

19:22:35 <bmotik> bmotik: Just extend OWL DL with simple types of axioms about annotation properties

Boris Motik: Just extend OWL DL with simple types of axioms about annotation properties

19:22:46 <bmotik> msmith: Bijan's proposal is much more elaborate

Michael Smith: Bijan's proposal is much more elaborate

19:23:12 <bmotik> pfps: I have a proposal for serializing annotations on annotations

Peter Patel-Schneider: I have a proposal for serializing annotations on annotations

19:23:33 <bmotik> alanr: Do we have a semantics for annotations?

Alan Ruttenberg: Do we have a semantics for annotations?

19:23:41 <bmotik> pfps: No semantics

Peter Patel-Schneider: No semantics

19:24:22 <bmotik> pfps: Two things are missing in Bijan's proposal

Peter Patel-Schneider: Two things are missing in Bijan's proposal

19:24:43 <bmotik> pfps: 1) Multiple annotation spaces --> Use reification

Peter Patel-Schneider: 1) Multiple annotation spaces --> Use reification

19:26:03 <bmotik> pfps: 2) cut down rich annotations:  single annotation space, syntax for annotations is OWL, semantics of annotations is OWL, pragmatics of annotations is mayIgnore

Peter Patel-Schneider: 2) cut down rich annotations: single annotation space, syntax for annotations is OWL, semantics of annotations is OWL, pragmatics of annotations is mayIgnore

19:26:04 <bmotik> jar: It seems to me that it is not clear what the requirements are

Jonathan Rees: It seems to me that it is not clear what the requirements are

19:26:18 <bmotik> IanH: There is some document that describes use cases

Ian Horrocks: There is some document that describes use cases

19:26:53 <bmotik> alanr: Many use cases were floating around

Alan Ruttenberg: Many use cases were floating around

19:27:10 <bmotik> alanr: Manchester people then came up with a proposal

Alan Ruttenberg: Manchester people then came up with a proposal

19:27:25 <bmotik> alanr: This gives you all of OWL

Alan Ruttenberg: This gives you all of OWL

19:28:38 <bmotik> bmotik: We always meant this to be something that tools would do

Boris Motik: We always meant this to be something that tools would do

19:28:58 <bmotik> IanH: There are four people who have proposals

Ian Horrocks: There are four people who have proposals

19:29:09 <bmotik> IanH: Bijan is offering an XML serializaion

Ian Horrocks: Bijan is offering an XML serializaion

19:29:16 <bmotik> Bijan: No

Bijan Parsia: No

19:29:26 <bmotik> Bijan: I would offer an RDF serialization as well

Bijan Parsia: I would offer an RDF serialization as well

19:29:43 <bmotik> IanH: When?

Ian Horrocks: When?

19:29:47 <bmotik> Bijan: Next week

Bijan Parsia: Next week

19:29:51 <bmotik> IanH: If not?

Ian Horrocks: If not?

19:30:00 <bmotik> Bijan: I'll burn in the 4th circle of hell

Bijan Parsia: I'll burn in the 4th circle of hell

19:30:24 <bmotik> alanr: If Bijan and Peter have a way of fixing my proposal, I'm fine with it

Alan Ruttenberg: If Bijan and Peter have a way of fixing my proposal, I'm fine with it

19:30:41 <bmotik> IanH: Is Peter's proposal the same as Bijan's?

Ian Horrocks: Is Peter's proposal the same as Bijan's?

19:30:48 <msmith> action bijan to provide an rdf serialization for his rich annotation proposal

Michael Smith: action bijan to provide an rdf serialization for his rich annotation proposal

19:30:48 <trackbot> Created ACTION-174 - Provide an rdf serialization for his rich annotation proposal [on Bijan Parsia - due 2008-08-04].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-174 - Provide an rdf serialization for his rich annotation proposal [on Bijan Parsia - due 2008-08-04].

19:30:50 <bmotik> pfps: I believe that it is

Peter Patel-Schneider: I believe that it is

19:31:21 <jar> Alanr, you want something that meet "the" goals, but what if they meet someone else's goals, and then don't meet yours? That's why I ask where the goals are written down.

Jonathan Rees: Alanr, you want something that meet "the" goals, but what if they meet someone else's goals, and then don't meet yours? That's why I ask where the goals are written down.

19:31:50 <bmotik> pfps: The UUIDs in Alan's proposal have nonstandard semantics

Peter Patel-Schneider: The UUIDs in Alan's proposal have nonstandard semantics

19:32:12 <bmotik> alanr: This is meant to be just an abbreviation

Alan Ruttenberg: This is meant to be just an abbreviation

19:32:25 <bmotik> pfps: We haven't seen a hint of how this interacts with the rest of the world

Peter Patel-Schneider: We haven't seen a hint of how this interacts with the rest of the world

19:32:57 <bmotik> alanr: In m(O) they are interpreted as ... (missed the end, sorry!)

Alan Ruttenberg: In m(O) they are interpreted as ... (missed the end, sorry!)

19:34:37 <bmotik> Bijan: I am not sure what is the nonstandardness Peter is referring to

Bijan Parsia: I am not sure what is the nonstandardness Peter is referring to

19:34:53 <bmotik> Bijan: Are we constructing and deconstructing a URI?

Bijan Parsia: Are we constructing and deconstructing a URI?

19:35:07 <bmotik> alanr: We are just giving a name to blank nodes

Alan Ruttenberg: We are just giving a name to blank nodes

19:35:18 <bmotik> alanr: THere is no deconstruction

Alan Ruttenberg: THere is no deconstruction

19:35:47 <bmotik> Bijan: How do I round-trip an ontology? What happens to these URIs?

Bijan Parsia: How do I round-trip an ontology? What happens to these URIs?

19:35:57 <bmotik> alanr: I haven't looked at how this gets serialized to XML

Alan Ruttenberg: I haven't looked at how this gets serialized to XML

19:36:26 <bmotik> Bijan: If I load an ontology into a triple store and I delet the axiom from a domain, what happens to an annotation?

Bijan Parsia: If I load an ontology into a triple store and I delet the axiom from a domain, what happens to an annotation?

19:36:46 <bmotik> alanr: Without extra tooling, you can destroy things

Alan Ruttenberg: Without extra tooling, you can destroy things

19:37:41 <bmotik> bmotik: I don't understand Bijan's proposal

Boris Motik: I don't understand Bijan's proposal

19:38:59 <bmotik> bijan: Each annotation space is a separate domain

Bijan Parsia: Each annotation space is a separate domain

19:39:31 <uli> 'projection' is the magic word?

Uli Sattler: 'projection' is the magic word?

19:39:58 <uli> query different projections separately

Uli Sattler: query different projections separately

19:41:15 <bmotik> msmith: You might want to name the annotation spaces for extensions

Michael Smith: You might want to name the annotation spaces for extensions

19:41:47 <bmotik> IanH: How do we go forward?

Ian Horrocks: How do we go forward?

19:42:11 <bmotik> alanr: Bijan and Peter might work towards a proposal, and I might document my proposal more clearly

Alan Ruttenberg: Bijan and Peter might work towards a proposal, and I might document my proposal more clearly

19:43:09 <bmotik> alanr: If there is no proposal for rich annotations, then I'd like to start working on alternatives immediately

Alan Ruttenberg: If there is no proposal for rich annotations, then I'd like to start working on alternatives immediately

19:43:40 <bijan> Sure

Bijan Parsia: Sure

19:43:54 <bijan> Me too

Bijan Parsia: Me too

19:44:03 <bijan> Peter speaks words of wisdom

Bijan Parsia: Peter speaks words of wisdom

19:44:17 <bmotik> IanH: If Bijan and Peter don't produce something in two week, we ditch the proposal?

Ian Horrocks: If Bijan and Peter don't produce something in two week, we ditch the proposal?

19:45:01 <bmotik> pfps: OK

Peter Patel-Schneider: OK

19:45:11 <bmotik> IanH: Alan's going to work on a simplified proposal?

Ian Horrocks: Alan's going to work on a simplified proposal?

19:45:35 <bmotik> IanH: Who thinks that rich annotations are really needed and doable and that we should decide now to do something?

Ian Horrocks: Who thinks that rich annotations are really needed and doable and that we should decide now to do something?

19:46:15 <bmotik> alanr: Mike, what do you think?

Alan Ruttenberg: Mike, what do you think?

19:46:17 <sandro> Ian: Should we direct Alan to rich annotation, or push him to do some less-general but not "rich annotations" direction?

Ian Horrocks: Should we direct Alan to rich annotation, or push him to do some less-general but not "rich annotations" direction? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

19:46:33 <bmotik> msmith: I'm confident in Bijan and Peter

Michael Smith: I'm confident in Bijan and Peter

19:46:47 <bmotik> IanH: It seems futile to be working on two propsals

Ian Horrocks: It seems futile to be working on two propsals

19:47:19 <bmotik> IanH: It seems more useful for Alan to scope out what would be an alternative

Ian Horrocks: It seems more useful for Alan to scope out what would be an alternative

19:48:00 <bmotik> IanH: Action on us to scope out a proposal in two and a half weeks? Two wednesdays from next wednesday?

Ian Horrocks: Action on us to scope out a proposal in two and a half weeks? Two wednesdays from next wednesday?

19:48:16 <bmotik> IanH: In a fortnight we'll have a discussion at a teleconf.

Ian Horrocks: In a fortnight we'll have a discussion at a teleconf.

19:50:24 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Chatlog_2008-07-28

Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Chatlog_2008-07-28

19:50:43 <Zakim> -dlm

Zakim IRC Bot: -dlm

19:51:06 <bijan> Is there a break?

Bijan Parsia: Is there a break?

19:51:11 <bijan> OR just garbledness

Bijan Parsia: OR just garbledness

19:51:56 <sandro> Topic: Afternoon Break

9. Afternoon Break

19:52:25 <Zakim> -bijan

Zakim IRC Bot: -bijan

20:10:50 <ekw> scribenick:ekw

Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 23 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Jonathan Rees Jie Bao Rob Shearer Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown Carsten Deborah McGuinness Unknown Karen Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

(No events recorded for 18 minutes)

(Scribe set to Unknown ekw)

20:12:19 <ekw> topic: Profiles

10. Profiles

20:20:16 <IanH> We are *really* about to restart

(No events recorded for 7 minutes)

Ian Horrocks: We are *really* about to restart

20:21:45 <ekw> subtopic: Marketing viewpoint on profile names

10.1. Marketing viewpoint on profile names

Summary: Discussion with Karen Myers from W3C

20:21:46 <ekw> summary:Discussion with Karen Myers from W3C
20:21:50 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call

20:21:50 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the call', sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'who is on the call', sandro

20:21:53 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call?

20:21:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.617.253.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see +1.617.253.aaaa

20:22:06 <sandro> zakim, aaaa is Meeting_Room

Sandro Hawke: zakim, aaaa is Meeting_Room

20:22:06 <Zakim> +Meeting_Room; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Meeting_Room; got it

20:22:51 <Zakim> +Karen

Zakim IRC Bot: +Karen

20:22:53 <Zakim> -Karen

Zakim IRC Bot: -Karen

20:22:53 <Zakim> +Karen

Zakim IRC Bot: +Karen

20:23:38 <ekw> alan: we have several profiles of OWL but we haven't reached agreement on names

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Alan Ruttenberg: we have several profiles of OWL but we haven't reached agreement on names

20:23:55 <ekw> alan: we thought we bounce them off you and get your take

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Alan Ruttenberg: we thought we bounce them off you and get your take

20:24:13 <ekw> karen: there are many different types of names and many architectures for names

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Unknown Karen: there are many different types of names and many architectures for names

20:24:52 <ekw> ... concept names, descriptive names, monagrams, alphanumeric, acronym, geographic

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Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 23 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Jonathan Rees Jie Bao Rob Shearer Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown Carsten Deborah McGuinness Unknown Karen Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

... concept names, descriptive names, monagrams, alphanumeric, acronym, geographic

20:25:06 <sandro> concept names, "apple"

Sandro Hawke: concept names, "apple"

20:25:06 <sandro> monograms "bwm"

Sandro Hawke: monograms "bwm"

20:25:06 <sandro> descriptive "autozone"

Sandro Hawke: descriptive "autozone"

20:25:06 <sandro> made-up-words, xerox

Sandro Hawke: made-up-words, xerox

20:25:06 <sandro> alphanumeric, "c4"

Sandro Hawke: alphanumeric, "c4"

20:25:27 <ekw> ... to think in terms of an architecture:

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Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 23 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Jonathan Rees Jie Bao Rob Shearer Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown Carsten Deborah McGuinness Unknown Karen Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

... to think in terms of an architecture:

20:25:28 <ekw> ... Do you always want a primary reference like OWL2?

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Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 23 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Jonathan Rees Jie Bao Rob Shearer Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown Carsten Deborah McGuinness Unknown Karen Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

... Do you always want a primary reference like OWL2?

20:25:54 <ekw> karen: but you are adding other terms like fragments

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Unknown Karen: but you are adding other terms like fragments

20:26:11 <ekw> alan: we settled on "profile"

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Alan Ruttenberg: we settled on "profile"

20:26:20 <ekw> alan: so this is resolved

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Alan Ruttenberg: so this is resolved

20:26:47 <sandro> (speaker is Ian Horrocks, co-chair)

Sandro Hawke: (speaker is Ian Horrocks, co-chair)

20:26:56 <ekw> ian: we have a language called owl DL

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Ian Horrocks: we have a language called owl DL

20:27:17 <ekw> ... the name OWL DL comes from DL standing for description logic

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... the name OWL DL comes from DL standing for description logic

20:27:32 <ekw> ... and several of these profiles are subsets of OWL DL

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... and several of these profiles are subsets of OWL DL

20:27:57 <ekw> ... but the language as a whole can be used in different ways

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... but the language as a whole can be used in different ways

20:28:30 <ekw> ... we wanted some subsets that are easier to reason with

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... we wanted some subsets that are easier to reason with

20:29:11 <ekw> ian: another fragment is meant to address data in databases

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Ian Horrocks: another fragment is meant to address data in databases

20:29:28 <ekw> ... and another called OWL R for rules

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Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 23 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Jonathan Rees Jie Bao Rob Shearer Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown Carsten Deborah McGuinness Unknown Karen Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

... and another called OWL R for rules

20:29:59 <ekw> alan: we tried some single letter names

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Alan Ruttenberg: we tried some single letter names

20:30:22 <ekw> ... but there was a desire to keep more of the names we had before

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Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 23 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Jonathan Rees Jie Bao Rob Shearer Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown Carsten Deborah McGuinness Unknown Karen Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

... but there was a desire to keep more of the names we had before

20:30:45 <ekw> alan: partially we are doing with legacy names and the desire to keep them

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Alan Ruttenberg: partially we are doing with legacy names and the desire to keep them

20:31:27 <ekw> karen: before we go to a solution, acronyms aren't the best route when putting multiple such names together

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Unknown Karen: before we go to a solution, acronyms aren't the best route when putting multiple such names together

20:31:51 <ekw> ... if you think about your descriptive structure, why not use a short descriptive name

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... if you think about your descriptive structure, why not use a short descriptive name

20:32:26 <ekw> msmith: when we try to do that we run into problems with DL Lite

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Michael Smith: when we try to do that we run into problems with DL Lite

20:32:59 <ekw> ian: there is a contention between OWL rules people and OWL Lite as to which is the database profile

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Ian Horrocks: there is a contention between OWL rules people and OWL Lite as to which is the database profile

20:33:15 <ekw> ian: so talking about DBs is kind of ruled out

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Ian Horrocks: so talking about DBs is kind of ruled out

20:33:52 <ekw> msmith: it may not have been clear that we expect users to choose among profiles

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Michael Smith: it may not have been clear that we expect users to choose among profiles

20:34:39 <ekw> karen: we can't use the more generic categories, are there other dimensions we could follow?

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Unknown Karen: we can't use the more generic categories, are there other dimensions we could follow?

20:35:02 <ekw> alan: EL++ lets you say less but lets you reason with lots of classes

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Alan Ruttenberg: EL++ lets you say less but lets you reason with lots of classes

20:35:12 <ekw> ... and has polynomial complexity

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... and has polynomial complexity

20:35:27 <ekw> ... OWL R is not particularly controversial

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... OWL R is not particularly controversial

20:35:58 <ekw> sandro: looking at the competitive advantages they are all defensive about what they can't do

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Sandro Hawke: looking at the competitive advantages they are all defensive about what they can't do

20:36:18 <ekw> ... there must be somethings that you really wouldn't want to use each profile for

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... there must be somethings that you really wouldn't want to use each profile for

20:36:46 <ekw> karen: you want to choose something memorable; people want to get it and remember it

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Unknown Karen: you want to choose something memorable; people want to get it and remember it

20:37:13 <ekw> alan: the closest contenders are the single letter names

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Alan Ruttenberg: the closest contenders are the single letter names

20:37:21 <ekw> karen: are you open to being creative?

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Unknown Karen: are you open to being creative?

20:37:40 <ekw> karen: are you open to doing barn owl, snowy owl, etc

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Unknown Karen: are you open to doing barn owl, snowy owl, etc

20:37:52 <ekw> sandro: too whimsical

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Sandro Hawke: too whimsical

20:38:07 <ekw> ian: what about OWL SQL?

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Ian Horrocks: what about OWL SQL?

20:38:47 <ekw> karen: could you add another qualifier?

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Unknown Karen: could you add another qualifier?

20:39:49 <ekw> sandro: how about talking about guaranteed response time?

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Sandro Hawke: how about talking about guaranteed response time?

20:40:11 <ekw> sandro: the problem is the differences are so subtle

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Sandro Hawke: the problem is the differences are so subtle

20:40:33 <ekw> ian: each group doesn't want to lose a competitive advantage

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Ian Horrocks: each group doesn't want to lose a competitive advantage

20:41:09 <ekw> msmith: we could make up a word, like car makers often do for model names

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Michael Smith: we could make up a word, like car makers often do for model names

20:41:37 <ekw> karen: going back over the notes, seeing things like polynomial complexity

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Unknown Karen: going back over the notes, seeing things like polynomial complexity

20:42:11 <ekw> mschnei: OWL T, OWL D and OWL R

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Michael Schneider: OWL T, OWL D and OWL R

20:42:32 <ekw> alan: could we just give them numbers?

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Alan Ruttenberg: could we just give them numbers?

20:43:07 <ekw> ian: if we really went with single letter names would it be so bad?

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Ian Horrocks: if we really went with single letter names would it be so bad?

20:43:27 <m_schnei> However, OWL-D is similar to OWL-DL :(

Michael Schneider: However, OWL-D is similar to OWL-DL :(

20:43:39 <ekw> karen: the challenge is that it would be hard for people to remember the differences among single letter names

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Unknown Karen: the challenge is that it would be hard for people to remember the differences among single letter names

20:43:58 <ekw> sandro: we are leaving out OWL Full and OWL DL names from this discussion

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Sandro Hawke: we are leaving out OWL Full and OWL DL names from this discussion

20:44:26 <ekw> ian: OWL RDF would have been a better name for OWL Full

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Ian Horrocks: OWL RDF would have been a better name for OWL Full

20:44:55 <m_schnei> "OWL RDF" instead of "OWL Full" would get my vote

Michael Schneider: "OWL RDF" instead of "OWL Full" would get my vote

20:45:00 <Karen> KM: likes looking for words like "reference"

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Unknown KM: likes looking for words like "reference" [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Karen ]

20:45:06 <ekw> alan: we've been discussing this a long time, not sensing a lot of energy on this

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Alan Ruttenberg: we've been discussing this a long time, not sensing a lot of energy on this

20:45:26 <ekw> alan: another name for DL Lite would be OWL Table

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Alan Ruttenberg: another name for DL Lite would be OWL Table

20:46:11 <ekw> ian: I always end up going for the single letter designations at the end of these discussions

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Ian Horrocks: I always end up going for the single letter designations at the end of these discussions

20:46:36 <m_schnei> "DB", "RL", "EL"

Michael Schneider: "DB", "RL", "EL"

20:46:38 <ekw> alan: there was some push back to a previous suggestion to have some names 2 letters

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Alan Ruttenberg: there was some push back to a previous suggestion to have some names 2 letters

20:47:05 <ekw> alan: who would find 1 letter names objectionable?

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Alan Ruttenberg: who would find 1 letter names objectionable?

20:47:18 <Karen> +1 establish the guidelines you want

Unknown Karen: +1 establish the guidelines you want

20:47:30 <ekw> sandro: I don't like that, I would like it to work well with OWL DL

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Sandro Hawke: I don't like that, I would like it to work well with OWL DL

20:48:18 <ekw> sandro: where the profiles are subsets, we could exploit that for ordering

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Sandro Hawke: where the profiles are subsets, we could exploit that for ordering

20:48:39 <ekw> karen: one of the things about naming is that it comes to you in the middle of the night

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Unknown Karen: one of the things about naming is that it comes to you in the middle of the night

20:48:56 <ekw> karen: let people think about it

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Unknown Karen: let people think about it

20:48:57 <Zakim> -Karen

Zakim IRC Bot: -Karen

20:50:16 <sandro> ACTION: Sandro report back on names frameworks, naming options

ACTION: Sandro report back on names frameworks, naming options

20:50:16 <trackbot> Created ACTION-175 - Report back on names frameworks, naming options [on Sandro Hawke - due 2008-08-04].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-175 - Report back on names frameworks, naming options [on Sandro Hawke - due 2008-08-04].

20:50:17 <ekw> See http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Profile_Names for the result of that action.

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See http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Profile_Names for the result of that action.

20:50:41 <sandro> Ian: EL and DL sounds very similar

Ian Horrocks: EL and DL sounds very similar [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

20:50:42 <sandro> Zhe: DL-E, DL-R, ...?

Zhe Wu: DL-E, DL-R, ...? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

20:50:46 <ekw> subtopic: OWL-R proposals

10.2. OWL-R proposals

20:51:14 <ekw> alan: issue 131 about unifying OWL R DL and OWL R Full profiles

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Alan Ruttenberg: ISSUE-131 about unifying OWL R DL and OWL R Full profiles

20:51:31 <baojie> q+

Jie Bao: q+

20:53:30 <ekw> zhe: Ivan wants the set of rules to be part of RDF

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Zhe Wu: Ivan wants the set of rules to be part of RDF

20:53:52 <ekw> ian: I thought we came to some reasonable agreement in email about this

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Ian Horrocks: I thought we came to some reasonable agreement in email about this

20:54:43 <ekw> achille: ian said that the only compliance is acheived if you can handle owl full

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Achille Fokoue: ian said that the only compliance is acheived if you can handle owl full

20:55:02 <sandro> q+

Sandro Hawke: q+

20:56:12 <sandro> q+ to double check that this means I can't use my OWL-R reasoner to find out what your OWL-R reasoner will produce.    It producing or not-producing a trouble says nothing about if yours will.

Sandro Hawke: q+ to double check that this means I can't use my OWL-R reasoner to find out what your OWL-R reasoner will produce. It producing or not-producing a trouble says nothing about if yours will.

20:56:54 <ekw> jie: my concern is OWL R or OWL R DL will be compatible with RDF

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Jie Bao: my concern is OWL R or OWL R DL will be compatible with RDF

20:57:01 <ekw> ian: it will be

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Ian Horrocks: it will be

20:58:17 <sandro> Ian: I am not sure if OWL-R is a superset of RDFS.

Ian Horrocks: I am not sure if OWL-R is a superset of RDFS. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

20:58:23 <sandro> Boris: I think it is.

Boris Motik: I think it is. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

20:58:34 <ekw> ian: the rule set came from the OWL Prime implementation

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Ian Horrocks: the rule set came from the OWL Prime implementation

20:58:53 <sandro> Zhe: some of the trivial stuff like  S P O |=  P type Property  is not in there, on purpose.

Zhe Wu: some of the trivial stuff like S P O |= P type Property is not in there, on purpose. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

20:58:57 <ekw> bmotik: for what we really care about, we are compliant

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Boris Motik: for what we really care about, we are compliant

20:59:55 <ekw> sandro: this is about us not having an upper limit on the entailments from the semantics

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Sandro Hawke: this is about us not having an upper limit on the entailments from the semantics

21:00:27 <ekw> sandro: the fact that a particular triple comes back on my query gives me no idea if it should come back on your query

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Sandro Hawke: the fact that a particular triple comes back on my query gives me no idea if it should come back on your query

21:01:01 <ekw> ian: the idea is not to create to big a burden on implementations

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Ian Horrocks: the idea is not to create to big a burden on implementations

21:01:16 <ekw> ian: to be honest unification doesn't affect this

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Ian Horrocks: to be honest unification doesn't affect this

21:01:33 <sandro> Ian: it's a tradeoff -- we could do it either way, but to detect (and prohibit) the extra stuff could be very expensive.

Ian Horrocks: it's a tradeoff -- we could do it either way, but to detect (and prohibit) the extra stuff could be very expensive. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

21:02:33 <sandro> sandro: I want cross-platform portability between different OWL-R systems.

Sandro Hawke: I want cross-platform portability between different OWL-R systems. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

21:02:36 <ekw> mschnei: there is an upper bound on possible entailments

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Michael Schneider: there is an upper bound on possible entailments

21:02:52 <ekw> ... I can't just produce everything, there was this restriction

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... I can't just produce everything, there was this restriction

21:03:01 <ekw> ... for me this doesn't help much

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... for me this doesn't help much

21:03:13 <ekw> ... I ask for an RDFS conformant reasoner

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... I ask for an RDFS conformant reasoner

21:03:22 <ekw> ... I get more than just the base,

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... I get more than just the base,

21:03:57 <ekw> ... if I ask if this is really RDFS conformant, then I get what is really a PD* reasoner

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... if I ask if this is really RDFS conformant, then I get what is really a PD* reasoner

21:04:31 <ekw> mschnei: I might get more than what I ask for

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Michael Schneider: I might get more than what I ask for

21:04:59 <ekw> msmith: in terms of interop, the best we can expect is the same response for the same inputs

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Michael Smith: in terms of interop, the best we can expect is the same response for the same inputs

21:05:07 <ekw> ... not arbitrary inputs

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... not arbitrary inputs

21:07:50 <ekw> mschnei: I am completely indifferent in how my reasoner behaves wrt to the syntactic spec

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Michael Schneider: I am completely indifferent in how my reasoner behaves wrt to the syntactic spec

21:08:06 <ekw> mschnei: I just care about the rules

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Michael Schneider: I just care about the rules

21:08:34 <ekw> bmotik: you are approaching this from a testing point of view

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Boris Motik: you are approaching this from a testing point of view

21:09:45 <ekw> bmotik: from a POV of users i think it is good if we can get syntactic guarantees

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Boris Motik: from a POV of users i think it is good if we can get syntactic guarantees

21:10:11 <ekw> bmotik: in OWL Full you can't completely do this, but we should get as close to that as possible

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Boris Motik: in OWL Full you can't completely do this, but we should get as close to that as possible

21:10:28 <ekw> ... you can handle more of OWL full by extending your set of rules

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... you can handle more of OWL full by extending your set of rules

21:10:38 <ekw> ian: it is not a restriction

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Ian Horrocks: it is not a restriction

21:10:58 <ekw> alan: I am trying to get what criteria michael is looking for

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Alan Ruttenberg: I am trying to get what criteria michael is looking for

21:11:36 <ekw> alan: are you uncomfortable because this does something that an OWL Full reasoner does?

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Alan Ruttenberg: are you uncomfortable because this does something that an OWL Full reasoner does?

21:12:05 <ekw> mschnei: I want OWL R to be a monotonic extension to RDFS

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Michael Schneider: I want OWL R to be a monotonic extension to RDFS

21:12:32 <ekw> ... I don't want only a part of it, why are the axiomatic triples left out?

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... I don't want only a part of it, why are the axiomatic triples left out?

21:12:51 <ekw> ... the second thing is ... what is compliant or not

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... the second thing is ... what is compliant or not

21:13:04 <ekw> ... for me this is in terms of this rule set

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... for me this is in terms of this rule set

21:13:30 <ekw> ... when you have a black box and implement these rules, the inferences should always be the same

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... when you have a black box and implement these rules, the inferences should always be the same

21:14:02 <ekw> alan: there should be a compliance rule that says exactly the RDF triples that should be produced

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Alan Ruttenberg: there should be a compliance rule that says exactly the RDF triples that should be produced

21:14:20 <ekw> alan: sandro - was this your discomfort too?

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Alan Ruttenberg: sandro - was this your discomfort too?

21:14:46 <ekw> zhe: we are always going to provide an API for users.

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Zhe Wu: we are always going to provide an API for users.

21:15:08 <ekw> ... presumably this API will just run this ruleset, we can always do more.

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... presumably this API will just run this ruleset, we can always do more.

21:15:40 <ekw> ... an option can reject RDF graphs that don't match the fragment.

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... an option can reject RDF graphs that don't match the fragment.

21:16:00 <ekw> alan: wrt the axiomatic triple issue is there a problem

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Alan Ruttenberg: wrt the axiomatic triple issue is there a problem

21:16:25 <ekw> ian: the infinite triple issue is a problem with this, Alt and Bag

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Ian Horrocks: the infinite triple issue is a problem with this, Alt and Bag

21:16:39 <ekw> mschnei: this is just an annoyance

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Michael Schneider: this is just an annoyance

21:16:54 <ekw> boris: axiomatic triples no problem

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Boris Motik: axiomatic triples no problem

21:17:24 <ekw> boris: we are ready have an infinite set of rules and we will have an infinite set of triples

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Boris Motik: we are ready have an infinite set of rules and we will have an infinite set of triples

21:17:48 <ekw> boris: so the implementation has already to look into the ontology and handle it

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Boris Motik: so the implementation has already to look into the ontology and handle it

21:18:13 <ekw> alan: now the second issue

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Alan Ruttenberg: now the second issue

21:19:02 <ekw> boris: this is not what the users want

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Boris Motik: this is not what the users want

21:19:20 <ekw> boris: you find an ontology on the web, the question is how to interpret this

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Boris Motik: you find an ontology on the web, the question is how to interpret this

21:19:38 <ekw> alan: multiple conformance levels

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Alan Ruttenberg: multiple conformance levels

21:19:48 <ekw> alan: strict mode means this for testing

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Alan Ruttenberg: strict mode means this for testing

21:20:08 <ekw> boris: I think the difference is what happens in the case you have an RDF graph

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Boris Motik: I think the difference is what happens in the case you have an RDF graph

21:20:23 <ekw> ... that falls outside of this syntactic fragment

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... that falls outside of this syntactic fragment

21:20:41 <ekw> ... you are trying to explain what these ontologies on the web mean

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... you are trying to explain what these ontologies on the web mean

21:21:11 <ekw> sandro: owl intended profile is a band aid, if we can avoid it great

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Sandro Hawke: owl intended profile is a band aid, if we can avoid it great

21:22:04 <ekw> boris: suppose you have an ont that claim it is intended OWL R but it has components outside of its fragment

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Boris Motik: suppose you have an ont that claim it is intended OWL R but it has components outside of its fragment

21:22:24 <ekw> ian: this will cause the OWL R Full reason to produce unsound results

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Ian Horrocks: this will cause the OWL R Full reason to produce unsound results

21:23:15 <ekw> msmith: why isn't this a burden on the tool vendor, if he is going to extend its behavior outside the fragment?

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Michael Smith: why isn't this a burden on the tool vendor, if he is going to extend its behavior outside the fragment?

21:23:54 <ekw> ian: apart from these wrinkles, owl DL and OWL full are aligned with respect to these entailments

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Ian Horrocks: apart from these wrinkles, owl DL and OWL full are aligned with respect to these entailments

21:24:25 <ekw> sandro: I am hearing the tools are going to do best effort

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Sandro Hawke: I am hearing the tools are going to do best effort

21:25:28 <ekw> achille: to try to understand

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Achille Fokoue: to try to understand

21:25:58 <ekw> ... my confusion comes from two normative features: syntactic restriction and owl rules

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... my confusion comes from two normative features: syntactic restriction and owl rules

21:26:35 <ekw> ... in owl full, if you go beyond it that is the end of the story

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... in owl full, if you go beyond it that is the end of the story

21:26:52 <ekw> alan: there are some who are very focused on the rules

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Alan Ruttenberg: there are some who are very focused on the rules

21:27:10 <ekw> ... and other who think of the rules as that's just how you do it

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... and other who think of the rules as that's just how you do it

21:27:38 <ekw> ian: what boris said before, this rules thing, isn't it coming from the perspective of the implementers?

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Ian Horrocks: what boris said before, this rules thing, isn't it coming from the perspective of the implementers?

21:28:14 <ekw> ian: do they really expect the users to look at this complicated rule set and understand the language?

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Ian Horrocks: do they really expect the users to look at this complicated rule set and understand the language?

21:28:52 <ekw> zhe: the user wants you to produce something they expect, they don't care if you produce more

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Zhe Wu: the user wants you to produce something they expect, they don't care if you produce more

21:29:28 <ekw> zhe: they only care about the completeness of the results that they are interested in

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Zhe Wu: they only care about the completeness of the results that they are interested in

21:29:52 <ekw> zhe: for instances in info integration, they only care that an individual is sameAs another

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Zhe Wu: for instances in info integration, they only care that an individual is sameAs another

21:32:14 <ekw> boris: there is a certain set of graphs for which you can get entailments from the OWL R rules

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Boris Motik: there is a certain set of graphs for which you can get entailments from the OWL R rules

21:32:42 <ekw> alan: but really users want to use graphs outside of your fragment

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Alan Ruttenberg: but really users want to use graphs outside of your fragment

21:33:08 <ekw> ian: they are outside the fragement where you can say its guaranteed that everything will work OK

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Ian Horrocks: they are outside the fragement where you can say its guaranteed that everything will work OK

21:33:29 <ekw> achille: why impose this constraint only on this fragment

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Achille Fokoue: why impose this constraint only on this fragment

21:34:00 <ekw> boris: because the other fragments are simply syntactic fragments

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Boris Motik: because the other fragments are simply syntactic fragments

21:35:22 <ekw> boris: what we wanted to do was to say if you get more than OWL R, go with OWL Full semantics

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Boris Motik: what we wanted to do was to say if you get more than OWL R, go with OWL Full semantics

21:38:08 <ekw> mschnei: what I think I have heard several times is the rules are an implmentation

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Michael Schneider: what I think I have heard several times is the rules are an implmentation

21:38:42 <ekw> ... for me rules are the perfect specification,

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... for me rules are the perfect specification,

21:39:10 <ekw> ... I think its true that people on care about things they expect,

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... I think its true that people on care about things they expect,

21:39:27 <ekw> ... but you don't want to get everything.

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... but you don't want to get everything.

21:40:00 <ekw> mschnei: for me what OWL R from the beginning was to be an extension to RDFS that does more

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Michael Schneider: for me what OWL R from the beginning was to be an extension to RDFS that does more

21:40:17 <ekw> alan: is there such a thing as strict mode?

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Alan Ruttenberg: is there such a thing as strict mode?

21:40:45 <ekw> alan: if an OWL DL ontology itself is outside OWL R

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Alan Ruttenberg: if an OWL DL ontology itself is outside OWL R

21:41:16 <ekw> ... if you give this to an OWL R reasoner built on the rule set it will do one thing

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... if you give this to an OWL R reasoner built on the rule set it will do one thing

21:41:35 <ekw> ... if you give it to an OWL DL reasoner it would do something else

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... if you give it to an OWL DL reasoner it would do something else

21:41:55 <ekw> mschnei: what's the problem?

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Michael Schneider: what's the problem?

21:42:23 <ekw> boris: to the point about ruleset being a good spec, I agree

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Boris Motik: to the point about ruleset being a good spec, I agree

21:43:34 <ekw> boris: if you now use this form of semantics after we have created the others, it just defines a 3rd different semantics

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Boris Motik: if you now use this form of semantics after we have created the others, it just defines a 3rd different semantics

21:43:42 <ekw> ... and this is not good

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... and this is not good

21:43:50 <sandro> Alan: Is it a good idea to say that there is an OWL-R strict mode?    I want to survey the room

Alan Ruttenberg: Is it a good idea to say that there is an OWL-R strict mode? I want to survey the room [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

21:44:14 <sandro> Ian: Is it a good idea to introduce a third semantics?      That's how I'd phrase it!     You're really saying we'd have a third semantics.

Ian Horrocks: Is it a good idea to introduce a third semantics? That's how I'd phrase it! You're really saying we'd have a third semantics. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

21:44:30 <ekw> ian: w/strict mode you are really saying we are creating a 3rd semantics

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Ian Horrocks: w/strict mode you are really saying we are creating a 3rd semantics

21:45:32 <sandro> sandro: from the user community perspective, it's a seventh semantics  (because there is also RDFS, etc, RDF semantics)

Sandro Hawke: from the user community perspective, it's a seventh semantics (because there is also RDFS, etc, RDF semantics) [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

21:45:41 <sandro> Ian: Same syntax, different semantics.

Ian Horrocks: Same syntax, different semantics. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

21:46:04 <ekw> achille: I want to go back to whether we are or not going with a strict mode

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Achille Fokoue: I want to go back to whether we are or not going with a strict mode

21:46:32 <ekw> ... if we go back to two sublanguages, the strict mode for OWL R DL would work pretty well

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... if we go back to two sublanguages, the strict mode for OWL R DL would work pretty well

21:46:59 <ekw> ... now it seems to me that merging OWL Rs creates more confusion

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... now it seems to me that merging OWL Rs creates more confusion

21:47:19 <m_schnei> I first thought, when hearing "third semantics" that a third *system* of semantics is meant, but it's only a, well third semantics, ok

Michael Schneider: I first thought, when hearing "third semantics" that a third *system* of semantics is meant, but it's only a, well third semantics, ok

21:47:35 <bijan> If OWL-R isn't a syntactic subset, then some RDF graphs will have 3 semantics!

Bijan Parsia: If OWL-R isn't a syntactic subset, then some RDF graphs will have 3 semantics!

21:47:38 <bijan> (Or 4!)

Bijan Parsia: (Or 4!)

21:47:41 <ekw> alan: I think that we understand the question in both forms

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Alan Ruttenberg: I think that we understand the question in both forms

21:48:06 <ekw> ... can we get a sense from people what the room thinks?

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... can we get a sense from people what the room thinks?

21:48:29 <m_schnei> bijan, we can have a complete stack of RDFS extensions :)

Michael Schneider: bijan, we can have a complete stack of RDFS extensions :)

21:48:30 <bmotik> subsubtopic: Strawpoll on having new OWL semantics defined by a rule set
10.2.1. Strawpoll on having new OWL semantics defined by a rule set
21:48:43 <bmotik> STRAWPOLL: Do we think it is a good idea to introduce a new semantics for OWL defined by a rule set / have an OWL-R strict mode?

STRAWPOLL: Do we think it is a good idea to introduce a new semantics for OWL defined by a rule set / have an OWL-R strict mode?

21:48:46 <bmotik> -1000

Boris Motik: -1000

21:48:50 <pfps> -1000

Peter Patel-Schneider: -1000

21:48:51 <Achille> -1

Achille Fokoue: -1

21:48:53 <m_schnei> +1

Michael Schneider: +1

21:48:57 <IanH> -1

Ian Horrocks: -1

21:48:57 <msmith> -1

Michael Smith: -1

21:48:58 <pha> -1

Peter Haase: -1

21:48:58 <baojie> -1

Jie Bao: -1

21:49:00 <bijan> -bmotik*pfps

Bijan Parsia: -bmotik*pfps

21:49:06 <sandro> +0.2

Sandro Hawke: +0.2

21:49:12 <Zhe> +0

Zhe Wu: +0

21:49:15 <ekw> +0

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+0

21:49:27 <alanr> 0

Alan Ruttenberg: 0

21:50:51 <ekw> mschnei: I need to check with

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Michael Schneider: I need to check with

21:51:05 <ekw> ... FZI about what they think

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... FZI about what they think

21:51:48 <ekw> alan: Michael - can you go back to your organization and find out where you stand?

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Alan Ruttenberg: Michael - can you go back to your organization and find out where you stand?

21:53:11 <ekw> subtopic: signalling semantics

10.3. signalling semantics

21:53:46 <sandro> Ian: Tell Users: If you intend OWL Full semantics, then include some specific bit (which we'll provide) of vacuous OWL full.

Ian Horrocks: Tell Users: If you intend OWL Full semantics, then include some specific bit (which we'll provide) of vacuous OWL full. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

21:53:49 <ekw> ian: instead of specifying intended semantics, we advise people in the spec

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Ian Horrocks: instead of specifying intended semantics, we advise people in the spec

21:54:10 <sandro> alan: eg: owl:Thing owl:sameAs owl:Thing

Alan Ruttenberg: eg: owl:Thing owl:sameAs owl:Thing [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

21:54:11 <ekw> ian: if they intend the OWL Full semantics always include these triples

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Ian Horrocks: if they intend the OWL Full semantics always include these triples

21:54:52 <sandro> sandro: owl:sameAs owl:sameAs owl:sameAs

Sandro Hawke: owl:sameAs owl:sameAs owl:sameAs [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

21:48:30 <pfps> subsubtopic: Strawpoll on signaling semantics
10.3.1. Strawpoll on signaling semantics
21:56:49 <pfps> STRAWPOLL:  The way to signal that an OWL ontology should be interpreted as OWL Full is to include a triple that takes the ontology out of OWL DL, namely owl:sameAs owl:sameAs owl:sameAs

(No events recorded for 8 minutes)

STRAWPOLL: The way to signal that an OWL ontology should be interpreted as OWL Full is to include a triple that takes the ontology out of OWL DL, namely owl:sameAs owl:sameAs owl:sameAs

21:56:51 <bmotik> +1

Boris Motik: +1

21:56:57 <pfps> +1.1

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1.1

21:56:58 <Achille> +1

Achille Fokoue: +1

21:57:01 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1

21:57:03 <Zhe> +1 (sounds hacky though)

Zhe Wu: +1 (sounds hacky though)

21:57:04 <pha> +1

Peter Haase: +1

21:57:05 <m_schnei> +1 (why not?)

Michael Schneider: +1 (why not?)

21:57:07 <bijan> +1

Bijan Parsia: +1

21:57:08 <ekw> +1

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Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 23 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Jonathan Rees Jie Bao Rob Shearer Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown Carsten Deborah McGuinness Unknown Karen Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

+1

21:57:15 <msmith> +1

Michael Smith: +1

21:57:58 <IanH> +1

Ian Horrocks: +1

21:58:17 <baojie> +1

Jie Bao: +1

21:58:29 <ekw> We are done for the day!

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Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 23 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Jonathan Rees Jie Bao Rob Shearer Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown Carsten Deborah McGuinness Unknown Karen Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

We are done for the day!

22:01:16 <sandro> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&hl=en&geocode=&saddr=32+vassar+st,+cambridge,+ma&daddr=900+Beacon+Street,+Boston,+MA+02215&sll=42.35368,-71.101215&sspn=0.019441,0.042315&doflg=ptm&ie=UTF8&ll=42.354136,-71.097636&spn=0.019441,0.042315&z=15

Sandro Hawke: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&hl=en&geocode=&saddr=32+vassar+st,+cambridge,+ma&daddr=900+Beacon+Street,+Boston,+MA+02215&sll=42.35368,-71.101215&sspn=0.019441,0.042315&doflg=ptm&ie=UTF8&ll=42.354136,-71.097636&spn=0.019441,0.042315&z=15

22:01:32 <sandro> 900 Beacon Street, Boston, MA 02215

Sandro Hawke: 900 Beacon Street, Boston, MA 02215

22:05:01 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, Meeting_Room, in SW_OWL()8:00AM

Zakim IRC Bot: disconnecting the lone participant, Meeting_Room, in SW_OWL()8:00AM

22:05:03 <Zakim> SW_OWL()8:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_OWL()8:00AM has ended

22:05:04 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.617.253.aaaa, bparsia, rob, uli, Carsten, bijan, dlm, Meeting_Room, Karen

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were +1.617.253.aaaa, bparsia, rob, uli, Carsten, bijan, dlm, Meeting_Room, Karen



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