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14:57:09 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/06/22-dpub-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/06/22-dpub-irc ←
14:57:11 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs public ←
14:57:13 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be dpub
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be dpub ←
14:57:13 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot ←
14:57:14 <trackbot> Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
14:57:14 <trackbot> Date: 22 June 2015
14:57:46 <ivan> Chair: Markus
14:59:58 <brady_duga> present+ duga
Brady Duga: present+ duga ←
15:00:09 <ivan> present+ ivan_herman
Ivan Herman: present+ ivan_herman ←
15:00:18 <ivan> present+ doug_schepers
Ivan Herman: present+ doug_schepers ←
15:00:30 <ivan> present+ markus_gylling
Ivan Herman: present+ markus_gylling ←
15:00:40 <dauwhe> present+ Dave_Cramer
Dave Cramer: present+ Dave_Cramer ←
15:00:45 <ivan> present+shinyu_murakami
Ivan Herman: present+shinyu_murakami ←
15:00:53 <ivan> present+ tzviya_siegman
Ivan Herman: present+ tzviya_siegman ←
15:00:55 <tzviya> present+ tzviya_siegman
Tzviya Siegman: present+ tzviya_siegman ←
15:01:17 <ivan> present dave_cramer
Ivan Herman: present dave_cramer ←
15:01:25 <dkaplan3> present+ deborah_kaplan
Deborah Kaplan: present+ deborah_kaplan ←
15:01:41 <kwkbtr> present+ Toru_Kawakubo
Scribe problem: the name 'kwkbtr' does not match any of the 93 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Avneesh Singh Ayla Stein Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Bryan Croft Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Dean Jackson Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Flanagan Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jeff Xu Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Johannes Wilm Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Matt Garrish Michael Miller Michael Cooper Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nicholas Ruffilo Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Patrick Keating Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Richard Schwerdtfeger Richard Ishida Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Shane McCarron Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Susann Keohane Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Toru Kawakubo Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vladimir Levantovsky Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'kwkbtr' does not match any of the 93 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Avneesh Singh Ayla Stein Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Bryan Croft Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Dean Jackson Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Flanagan Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jeff Xu Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Johannes Wilm Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Matt Garrish Michael Miller Michael Cooper Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nicholas Ruffilo Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Patrick Keating Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Richard Schwerdtfeger Richard Ishida Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Shane McCarron Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Susann Keohane Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Toru Kawakubo Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vladimir Levantovsky Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown kwkbtr: present+ Toru_Kawakubo ←
15:01:45 <astearns> present+ astearns
Alan Stearns: present+ astearns ←
15:01:51 <ivan> present+ charles_lapierre
Ivan Herman: present+ charles_lapierre ←
15:01:54 <mgylling> present+ mgylling
Markus Gylling: present+ mgylling ←
15:02:00 <Julie> + julie morris
Julie Morris: + julie morris ←
15:02:06 <ivan> present+ michael_miller
Ivan Herman: present+ michael_miller ←
15:02:07 <bjdmeest> Present+ Ben_De_Meester
Ben De Meester: Present+ Ben_De_Meester ←
15:02:12 <ivan> present+ julie_morris
Ivan Herman: present+ julie_morris ←
15:02:18 <Bill_Kasdorf> Present+ Bill_Kasdorf
Bill Kasdorf: Present+ Bill_Kasdorf ←
15:02:36 <ivan> scribenick: dauwhe
(Scribe set to Dave Cramer)
15:02:53 <ivan> agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/5582D1E1.7030707@gmail.com
15:03:01 <dauwhe> [general hilarity]
[general hilarity] ←
15:03:14 <TimCole> Present+ Tim_Cole
Timothy Cole: Present+ Tim_Cole ←
15:03:18 <ivan> present+ toru_kawakubo
Ivan Herman: present+ toru_kawakubo ←
15:03:37 <tzviya> chair: tzviya
15:03:40 <tzviya> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Jun/0076.html
15:04:12 <dauwhe> [unicode humor]
[unicode humor] ←
15:04:17 <dauwhe> tzviya: let's get started
Tzviya Siegman: let's get started ←
15:04:31 <ayla_stein> present+ Ayla Stein
Ayla Stein: present+ Ayla Stein ←
15:04:33 <pkra> Present+ pkra
Peter Krautzberger: Present+ pkra ←
15:04:36 <tzviya> http://www.w3.org/2015/06/15-dpub-minutes.html
Tzviya Siegman: http://www.w3.org/2015/06/15-dpub-minutes.html ←
15:04:37 <dauwhe> ... last week's minutes
... last week's minutes ←
15:04:40 <dauwhe> ... any comments?
... any comments? ←
15:04:49 <dauwhe> ... minutes approved
... minutes approved ←
15:05:02 <tzviya> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jun/0091.html
Tzviya Siegman: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jun/0091.html ←
15:05:12 <dauwhe> ... PF has asked the publishing community to look at aria-described-at
... PF has asked the publishing community to look at aria-described-at ←
15:05:22 <dauwhe> ... it's at risk and might be removed
... it's at risk and might be removed ←
15:05:29 <dauwhe> ... Rich has asked us to send comments
... Rich has asked us to send comments ←
15:05:40 <dauwhe> ... we discussed this on friday
... we discussed this on friday ←
15:05:52 <Karen> Present+ Karen
Karen Myers: Present+ Karen ←
15:06:02 <dauwhe> dkaplan3: described-at is vvery valuable for digital publishing a11y
Deborah Kaplan: described-at is very valuable for digital publishing a11y ←
15:06:15 <dauwhe> ... some of the concerns about longdesc are addressed by this
... some of the concerns about longdesc are addressed by this ←
15:06:17 <ivan> s/vvery/very/
15:06:30 <dauwhe> ... some concerns are not addressed, but we still think it's valuable
... some concerns are not addressed, but we still think it's valuable ←
15:06:42 <dauwhe> ... very powerful: any element can reference something further away
... very powerful: any element can reference something further away ←
15:06:49 <dauwhe> ... we think it would be good for dpub
... we think it would be good for dpub ←
15:06:55 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
Bill Kasdorf: q+ ←
15:07:04 <dauwhe> tzviya: right now publishing is embracing a11y, but it's in early stages
Tzviya Siegman: right now publishing is embracing a11y, but it's in early stages ←
15:07:14 <dauwhe> ... took me 18mo to get my company to use alt text
... took me 18mo to get my company to use alt text ←
15:07:25 <dauwhe> ... we're a slow moving industry
... we're a slow moving industry ←
15:07:35 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to Tzviya
Bill Kasdorf: +1 to Tzviya ←
15:07:35 <dauwhe> ... we like a11y and want to support it
... we like a11y and want to support it ←
15:07:50 <dauwhe> ... but it's tricky to say if we don't use this right away, it will be removed
... but it's tricky to say if we don't use this right away, it will be removed ←
15:08:08 <dauwhe> dkaplan3: the publishers want us to tell them what to do
Deborah Kaplan: the publishers want us to tell them what to do ←
15:08:19 <dauwhe> ... they will adopt them at glacial speed, along with reading tools
... they will adopt them at glacial speed, along with reading tools ←
15:08:30 <dauwhe> ... must be supported by user agents
... must be supported by user agents ←
15:08:45 <tzviya> ack Bill
Tzviya Siegman: ack Bill ←
15:08:45 <dauwhe> ... they want us to say "here is what you can use"
... they want us to say "here is what you can use" ←
15:08:54 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: quick question
Bill Kasdorf: quick question ←
15:09:11 <dauwhe> ... is the key point that longdesc and described-at are not the same thing
... is the key point that longdesc and described-at are not the same thing ←
15:09:27 <dauwhe> ... some folks who hate longdesc also hate described-at
... some folks who hate longdesc also hate described-at ←
15:09:34 <dauwhe> ... sometimes for the same reasons
... sometimes for the same reasons ←
15:09:37 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
15:09:52 <tzviya> ack ivan
Tzviya Siegman: ack ivan ←
15:09:55 <dauwhe> dkaplan3: we want both
Deborah Kaplan: we want both ←
15:10:02 <dauwhe> ivan: I was not part of this discussion
Ivan Herman: I was not part of this discussion ←
15:10:12 <dauwhe> ... what is the problem with the attribute? Why is it questioned?
... what is the problem with the attribute? Why is it questioned? ←
15:10:13 <tmichel> present+ thierry
Thierry Michel: present+ thierry ←
15:11:08 <dauwhe> dkaplan3: when you are talking about offline reading, having an attribute referencing content that's not packaged is a concern
Deborah Kaplan: when you are talking about offline reading, having an attribute referencing content that's not packaged is a concern ←
15:11:15 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
15:11:20 <dauwhe> ... is it worth addressing? We think so.
... is it worth addressing? We think so. ←
15:11:21 <tzviya> ack ivan
Tzviya Siegman: ack ivan ←
15:11:49 <dauwhe> ivan: one thing we want to achieve is making offline/online distinction secondary
Ivan Herman: one thing we want to achieve is making offline/online distinction secondary ←
15:11:59 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
Bill Kasdorf: q+ ←
15:12:04 <dauwhe> ... content may be offline now, but may be online in two hours or two minutes
... content may be offline now, but may be online in two hours or two minutes ←
15:12:22 <dkaplan3> q+
Deborah Kaplan: q+ ←
15:12:24 <tzviya> ack bill
Tzviya Siegman: ack bill ←
15:12:41 <clapierre1> q+
Charles LaPierre: q+ ←
15:12:41 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: that reinforces argument that we need both
Bill Kasdorf: that reinforces argument that we need both ←
15:13:02 <dauwhe> tzviya: we have lots to do
Tzviya Siegman: we have lots to do ←
15:13:06 <tzviya> ack dkap
Tzviya Siegman: ack dkap ←
15:13:16 <dauwhe> dkaplan3: a good thing from dpub would be
Deborah Kaplan: a good thing from dpub would be ←
15:14:07 <dauwhe> ... use cases showing how these descriptions are really big or really frequent
... use cases showing how these descriptions are really big or really frequent ←
15:14:12 <tzviya> ack ch
Tzviya Siegman: ack ch ←
15:14:18 <tzviya> ack cl
Tzviya Siegman: ack cl ←
15:14:19 <dauwhe> ... and so they do need to be linked from somewhere else
... and so they do need to be linked from somewhere else ←
15:14:21 <tmichel> rrsagaent, draft minutes
Thierry Michel: rrsagaent, draft minutes ←
15:14:30 <dauwhe> clapierre1: longdesc is not an a11y attribute, aria is
Charles LaPierre: longdesc is not an a11y attribute, aria is ←
15:14:33 <tmichel> rrsagent, draft minutes
Thierry Michel: rrsagent, draft minutes ←
15:14:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/22-dpub-minutes.html tmichel
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/22-dpub-minutes.html tmichel ←
15:14:56 <dauwhe> ... because it's an a11y attribute, it should be something else, so it can be used for anything
... because it's an a11y attribute, it should be something else, so it can be used for anything ←
15:15:13 <dauwhe> tzviya: next steps for this group
Tzviya Siegman: next steps for this group ←
15:15:28 <dauwhe> ... dkapan3, could you write up a few sentences to send to Rich and friends
... dkapan3, could you write up a few sentences to send to Rich and friends ←
15:15:39 <dauwhe> ... it's important, we may not be able to embrace immediately, but we're coming
... it's important, we may not be able to embrace immediately, but we're coming ←
15:15:47 <dauwhe> ivan: I can read it
Ivan Herman: I can read it ←
15:16:01 <dauwhe> tzviya: this is where our role as liason to BISG would come in
Tzviya Siegman: this is where our role as liason to BISG would come in ←
15:16:14 <dauwhe> Julie: we can also mention that in a bulletin
Julie Morris: we can also mention that in a bulletin ←
15:16:28 <pkra> stem
Peter Krautzberger: stem ←
15:16:35 <dauwhe> tzviya: as soon as I find the agenda I'll talk about what's next
Tzviya Siegman: as soon as I find the agenda I'll talk about what's next ←
15:16:45 <ivan> Topic: STEM Survey
15:16:55 <dauwhe> pkra: update
Peter Krautzberger: update ←
15:17:00 <dauwhe> ... we're still working on survey
... we're still working on survey ←
15:17:03 <dauwhe> ... making progress
... making progress ←
15:17:12 <dauwhe> ... some tech difficulties which have been resolved
... some tech difficulties which have been resolved ←
15:17:19 <dauwhe> ... vacations have been resolved ;)
... vacations have been resolved ;) ←
15:17:39 <tzviya> q?
Tzviya Siegman: q? ←
15:17:45 <dauwhe> ... we had summary from w3c form system
... we had summary from w3c form system ←
15:17:54 <dauwhe> ... generated the source data
... generated the source data ←
15:18:03 <dauwhe> ... Nick pushed it into an SQL database so we could query
... Nick pushed it into an SQL database so we could query ←
15:18:20 <ayla_stein> fire alarm, have to leave
Ayla Stein: fire alarm, have to leave ←
15:18:26 <dauwhe> ... we have this database, and tim has explored
... we have this database, and tim has explored ←
15:18:40 <dauwhe> ... can get advanced slices of data
... can get advanced slices of data ←
15:18:57 <dauwhe> ... now we can slice up data based on background of respondents
... now we can slice up data based on background of respondents ←
15:19:01 <TimCole> I am on the call.
Timothy Cole: I am on the call. ←
15:19:37 <dauwhe> ... people who are publishers point to lack of w3c standards
... people who are publishers point to lack of w3c standards ←
15:19:43 <dauwhe> ... but authors didn't mention this
... but authors didn't mention this ←
15:19:48 <dauwhe> ... so we get useful information
... so we get useful information ←
15:19:51 <dauwhe> ... next steps?
... next steps? ←
15:19:57 <dauwhe> ... planning a meeting of task force soon
... planning a meeting of task force soon ←
15:20:12 <dauwhe> ... jump right in to writing the note
... jump right in to writing the note ←
15:20:19 <dauwhe> ... based on survey structure
... based on survey structure ←
15:20:29 <dauwhe> ... and we can create better queries
... and we can create better queries ←
15:20:52 <dauwhe> ... the more you look at survey the more it becomes clear it's limited in it's usefulness
... the more you look at survey the more it becomes clear it's limited in it's usefulness ←
15:21:00 <dauwhe> ... not a representative sample
... not a representative sample ←
15:21:21 <dauwhe> ... 2nd problem is responses have limited quality
... 2nd problem is responses have limited quality ←
15:21:28 <dauwhe> ... which is the fault of the survey
... which is the fault of the survey ←
15:21:50 <dauwhe> ... there aren't actually many obvious patterns
... there aren't actually many obvious patterns ←
15:21:58 <dauwhe> ... which could further the work of task force
... which could further the work of task force ←
15:22:10 <dauwhe> ... people are unhappy with lack of MathML support in browsers
... people are unhappy with lack of MathML support in browsers ←
15:22:14 <dauwhe> ... but this is not a surprise
... but this is not a surprise ←
15:22:15 <tzviya> q+
Tzviya Siegman: q+ ←
15:22:26 <dauwhe> ... we will see some interesting snippets
... we will see some interesting snippets ←
15:22:34 <dauwhe> ... we're working on it, we're making progress
... we're working on it, we're making progress ←
15:22:42 <dauwhe> ... the bigger question is what we can do next
... the bigger question is what we can do next ←
15:23:02 <dauwhe> ... the survey has not been super-helpful
... the survey has not been super-helpful ←
15:23:20 <dauwhe> ... I now have more ideas on MathML
... I now have more ideas on MathML ←
15:23:35 <Karen> q+
Karen Myers: q+ ←
15:24:01 <tzviya> ack kar
Tzviya Siegman: ack kar ←
15:24:44 <dauwhe> Karen: what kind of people do we want on this task force, and what deliverables are short and long term possibilities?
Karen Myers: what kind of people do we want on this task force, and what deliverables are short and long term possibilities? ←
15:24:50 <dauwhe> ... what are we inviting them to work on?
... what are we inviting them to work on? ←
15:24:51 <TimCole> q+
Timothy Cole: q+ ←
15:25:04 <dauwhe> ... that's a q for peter and wider group
... that's a q for peter and wider group ←
15:25:10 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
15:25:13 <dauwhe> pkra: work on whatever they work on, which may sound ridiculous
Peter Krautzberger: work on whatever they work on, which may sound ridiculous ←
15:25:27 <dauwhe> ... we have the example of chemistry where there's a strong xml standard
... we have the example of chemistry where there's a strong xml standard ←
15:25:35 <dauwhe> ... but there's nothting that ties into w3c work
... but there's nothting that ties into w3c work ←
15:25:46 <dauwhe> ... we need to find people to bring the right kind of abilities
... we need to find people to bring the right kind of abilities ←
15:25:52 <dauwhe> ... and here I'm not the expert
... and here I'm not the expert ←
15:26:03 <dauwhe> tzviya: we've had more feedback on workflow than tech issues
Tzviya Siegman: we've had more feedback on workflow than tech issues ←
15:26:10 <dauwhe> ... people hack it
... people hack it ←
15:26:26 <dauwhe> ... chemistry, physics, any sciences
... chemistry, physics, any sciences ←
15:26:40 <tzviya> ack tzv
Tzviya Siegman: ack tzv ←
15:26:42 <pkra> q+
Peter Krautzberger: q+ ←
15:26:48 <dauwhe> ... we don't want to create work for ourselves
... we don't want to create work for ourselves ←
15:26:54 <tzviya> ack Tim
Tzviya Siegman: ack Tim ←
15:26:59 <dauwhe> ... if it's not immediate we have enough to do
... if it's not immediate we have enough to do ←
15:27:49 <dauwhe> TimCole: we need to do human reading of data
Timothy Cole: we need to do human reading of data ←
15:28:03 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to Tim
Bill Kasdorf: +1 to Tim ←
15:28:03 <dauwhe> ... and come up with more succinct survey, that could be filled out by larger group
... and come up with more succinct survey, that could be filled out by larger group ←
15:28:19 <Karen> +1 focused quantitative survey built on top of qualitative work Peter did
Karen Myers: +1 focused quantitative survey built on top of qualitative work Peter did ←
15:28:24 <dauwhe> ... many answers said, "we should have asked this"
... many answers said, "we should have asked this" ←
15:28:52 <dauwhe> ... interesting dicotomies
... interesting dicotomies ←
15:29:13 <dauwhe> ... particular content types could benefit from standardization, but list was divergent
... particular content types could benefit from standardization, but list was divergent ←
15:29:33 <tzviya> ack ivan
Tzviya Siegman: ack ivan ←
15:29:50 <dauwhe> ivan: putting on my w3c hat
Ivan Herman: putting on my w3c hat ←
15:29:56 <dauwhe> ... an interesting question would be
... an interesting question would be ←
15:30:18 <dauwhe> ... are there formats like mathml that need standardization
... are there formats like mathml that need standardization ←
15:30:23 <dauwhe> ... and can be done at w3c
... and can be done at w3c ←
15:30:34 <dauwhe> ... this kind of input would be useful
... this kind of input would be useful ←
15:30:50 <dauwhe> ... there are a number of formats out there that are created for different purposes
... there are a number of formats out there that are created for different purposes ←
15:31:02 <Bill_Kasdorf> Re Ivan's question, I'd suggest chemistry and 3D
Bill Kasdorf: Re Ivan's question, I'd suggest chemistry and 3D ←
15:31:03 <dauwhe> ... do we know what they are, how mature, do they need a home?
... do we know what they are, how mature, do they need a home? ←
15:31:14 <dauwhe> ... chemistry, 3d, probably others
... chemistry, 3d, probably others ←
15:31:39 <dauwhe> ... I told you about doug and I brining in musicML
... I told you about doug and I bringing in musicML ←
15:31:52 <dauwhe> s/brining/bringing/
15:32:01 <tzviya> ack pk
Tzviya Siegman: ack pk ←
15:32:07 <dauwhe> ... knowing about the needs would be valuable for w3c management
... knowing about the needs would be valuable for w3c management ←
15:32:27 <dauwhe> pkra: another example
Peter Krautzberger: another example ←
15:32:49 <dauwhe> ... the jupiter notebook format, a computational document format
... the jupiter notebook format, a computational document format ←
15:33:00 <dauwhe> ... there's an opportunity, but it's very early on
... there's an opportunity, but it's very early on ←
15:33:14 <dauwhe> ... both the iPython people and publishers see that this could be standardized
... both the iPython people and publishers see that this could be standardized ←
15:33:17 <dauwhe> ... but it's too soon
... but it's too soon ←
15:33:31 <dauwhe> ... i don't know which of these things fit well with mission of w3c
... i don't know which of these things fit well with mission of w3c ←
15:33:38 <dauwhe> ... it's very application specific right now
... it's very application specific right now ←
15:33:48 <dauwhe> ... but could be more general purpose in 3 or 5 or ten years
... but could be more general purpose in 3 or 5 or ten years ←
15:33:54 <Bill_Kasdorf> One way to pose the question to publishers would be "what formats would it be useful for browsers to natively understand?"
Bill Kasdorf: One way to pose the question to publishers would be "what formats would it be useful for browsers to natively understand?" ←
15:33:54 <dauwhe> tzviya: we have full agenda
Tzviya Siegman: we have full agenda ←
15:34:13 <dauwhe> ... it's a work in progress, we'll know more in a few weeks, and task force will be drafting a note
... it's a work in progress, we'll know more in a few weeks, and task force will be drafting a note ←
15:34:21 <dauwhe> ... sounds like you need more human-power
... sounds like you need more human-power ←
15:34:43 <dauwhe> pkra: we have enough people but not enough time
Peter Krautzberger: we have enough people but not enough time ←
15:35:02 <dauwhe> tzviya: we'll takl about timelines. when do you expect draft will get started
Tzviya Siegman: we'll takl about timelines. when do you expect draft will get started ←
15:35:14 <dauwhe> pkra: will be started at next TF meeting, this week or next week
Peter Krautzberger: will be started at next TF meeting, this week or next week ←
15:35:21 <dauwhe> tzviya: we have timeline in our charter
Tzviya Siegman: we have timeline in our charter ←
15:35:27 <dauwhe> ... let's talk about timelines offline
... let's talk about timelines offline ←
15:35:35 <tzviya> http://www.w3.org/2015/06/mathmlpas.html
Tzviya Siegman: http://www.w3.org/2015/06/mathmlpas.html ←
15:35:46 <dauwhe> tzviya: Karen emailed about ISO standardization of MathML and how they need support statements
Tzviya Siegman: Karen emailed about ISO standardization of MathML and how they need support statements ←
15:35:55 <pkra> +1
Peter Krautzberger: +1 ←
15:35:59 <dauwhe> Karen: send them to me. Quote, org name, attribution, title
Karen Myers: send them to me. Quote, org name, attribution, title ←
15:36:06 <tzviya> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/dpub.html
Tzviya Siegman: https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/dpub.html ←
15:36:11 <ivan> Topic: DPUB-ARIA
15:36:12 <dauwhe> tzviya: the digital publishing module of ARIA
Tzviya Siegman: the digital publishing module of ARIA ←
15:36:37 <dauwhe> ... biggest change is a note
... biggest change is a note ←
15:37:10 <dauwhe> ... mentioning that we're formally requesting feedback from publishing, and specifically IDPF
... mentioning that we're formally requesting feedback from publishing, and specifically IDPF ←
15:37:31 <dauwhe> ... "don't use this until we resolve confusion w/ EPUB structural semantics vocab"
... "don't use this until we resolve confusion w/ EPUB structural semantics vocab" ←
15:37:38 <dauwhe> mgylling: you got it all
Markus Gylling: you got it all ←
15:37:50 <tzviya> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Jun/0075.html
Tzviya Siegman: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Jun/0075.html ←
15:37:52 <ivan> Topic: CSS Priority Use case
15:37:56 <dauwhe> tzviya: some additions to css priorities use cases on cjk
Tzviya Siegman: some additions to css priorities use cases on cjk ←
15:38:27 <dauwhe> murakami: I received a comment from chinese layout task force
Shinyu Murakami: I received a comment from chinese layout task force ←
15:39:03 <dauwhe> ... bopomofo is listed ???
... bopomofo is listed ??? ←
15:39:09 <murakami> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-ruby-1/#valdef-ruby-position-inter-character
Shinyu Murakami: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-ruby-1/#valdef-ruby-position-inter-character ←
15:40:04 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
15:40:09 <dauwhe> murakami: bopomofo should be listed in CSS priority list
Shinyu Murakami: bopomofo should be listed in CSS priority list ←
15:40:23 <tzviya> marakami: chinese layout TF said bopofomo should be listed in these requirements
Scribe problem: the name 'marakami' does not match any of the 93 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: ASOK BANDYOPADHYAY Akshat Joshi Alan Tam Alan Stearns Anton Leskovets Avneesh Singh Ayla Stein Ben De Meester Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Bryan Croft Casey Dougherty Charles LaPierre Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Dean Jackson Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Don Brutzman Doug Schepers Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu George Kerscher George Walkley Graham Bell Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Heather Flanagan Heather Reid Ivan Herman Jeff Xu Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Johannes Wilm Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Mahesh Kulkarni Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Matt Garrish Michael Miller Michael Cooper Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Nicholas Ruffilo Nishit Jain Paolo Ciccarese Patrick Keating Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Richard Schwerdtfeger Richard Ishida Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Shane McCarron Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Susann Keohane Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Toru Kawakubo Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vincent Gros Vladimir Levantovsky Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown marakami: chinese layout TF said bopofomo should be listed in these requirements [ Scribe Assist by Tzviya Siegman ] ←
15:40:32 <dauwhe> ... Chinese needs this
... Chinese needs this ←
15:40:37 <tzviya> ack ivan
Tzviya Siegman: ack ivan ←
15:40:42 <dauwhe> ivan: two things
Ivan Herman: two things ←
15:40:57 <dauwhe> ... Bobby told us about this before, it's important for traditional chinese
... Bobby told us about this before, it's important for traditional chinese ←
15:41:13 <dauwhe> ... my problem is not with what murakami added
... my problem is not with what murakami added ←
15:41:21 <dauwhe> ... we know that css modules do deal with ruby
... we know that css modules do deal with ruby ←
15:41:30 <dauwhe> ... also try to take care of bopomofo
... also try to take care of bopomofo ←
15:41:34 <dauwhe> ... we know that's happening
... we know that's happening ←
15:41:45 <dauwhe> ... but what are things that are needed but are not happening in CSS
... but what are things that are needed but are not happening in CSS ←
15:42:18 <dauwhe> ... how to distinguish between what's important but being taken care of
... how to distinguish between what's important but being taken care of ←
15:42:25 <dauwhe> ... and what isn't being taken care of
... and what isn't being taken care of ←
15:42:27 <tzviya> q?
Tzviya Siegman: q? ←
15:42:32 <dauwhe> ... we need priorities here
... we need priorities here ←
15:42:49 <dauwhe> tzviya: murakami, can you take care of that?
Tzviya Siegman: murakami, can you take care of that? ←
15:42:56 <dauwhe> murakami: yes
Shinyu Murakami: yes ←
15:43:02 <dauwhe> ... i have to find the priority
... i have to find the priority ←
15:44:01 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/CSS_Priorities_for_the_Digital_Publishing_Community#CJK
Tzviya Siegman: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/CSS_Priorities_for_the_Digital_Publishing_Community#CJK ←
15:44:24 <tzviya> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Jun/0001.html
Tzviya Siegman: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Jun/0001.html ←
15:44:30 <dauwhe> tzviya: with fifteen minutes left, we get to today's discussion topic
Tzviya Siegman: with fifteen minutes left, we get to today's discussion topic ←
15:44:41 <dauwhe> ... talking about packages and how to identify them
... talking about packages and how to identify them ←
15:44:58 <dauwhe> ... at F2F we talked about packages, fragment identifiers, and primary identifiers
... at F2F we talked about packages, fragment identifiers, and primary identifiers ←
15:45:04 <dauwhe> ... and whether we need a package
... and whether we need a package ←
15:45:13 <dauwhe> ... I'll turn it over to markus and ivan
... I'll turn it over to markus and ivan ←
15:45:32 <dauwhe> mgylling: ivan, can you give us a summary?
Markus Gylling: ivan, can you give us a summary? ←
15:45:43 <dauwhe> ivan: i can try
Ivan Herman: i can try ←
15:45:56 <dauwhe> ... we discussed at F2F and later
... we discussed at F2F and later ←
15:46:04 <dauwhe> ... whether we need packaging, what format, etc
... whether we need packaging, what format, etc ←
15:46:13 <dauwhe> ... and we talked about identification of package
... and we talked about identification of package ←
15:46:21 <dauwhe> ... on the mailing list we had vague conclusion
... on the mailing list we had vague conclusion ←
15:46:32 <dauwhe> ... what we need is an abstract concept
... what we need is an abstract concept ←
15:46:41 <dauwhe> ... i don't want to use the word package
... i don't want to use the word package ←
15:47:03 <dauwhe> ... a web document which is not the same as a web page
... a web document which is not the same as a web page ←
15:47:17 <dauwhe> ... which contains all the dependencies in one place
... which contains all the dependencies in one place ←
15:47:27 <dauwhe> ... along with pages that are logically included
... along with pages that are logically included ←
15:47:37 <dauwhe> ... if it's offline it's in a package
... if it's offline it's in a package ←
15:47:46 <dauwhe> ... if it's online there's no real term
... if it's online there's no real term ←
15:47:56 <dauwhe> ... bill was pushing for word publication
... bill was pushing for word publication ←
15:48:05 <dauwhe> ... more a conceptual thing than technical thing
... more a conceptual thing than technical thing ←
15:48:12 <dauwhe> ... helps keep our mind focused
... helps keep our mind focused ←
15:48:20 <dauwhe> ... can be tightly bound to web manifest
... can be tightly bound to web manifest ←
15:48:25 <Bill_Kasdorf> A publication can contain many documents, and it can be packaged or not packaged.
Bill Kasdorf: A publication can contain many documents, and it can be packaged or not packaged. ←
15:48:27 <tzviya> +1
Tzviya Siegman: +1 ←
15:48:31 <dauwhe> ... which is equiv of package file in epub
... which is equiv of package file in epub ←
15:48:45 <tzviya> +1 to web manifest. that is
Tzviya Siegman: +1 to web manifest. that is ←
15:48:49 <dauwhe> ... epubweb talks about these web publications which have offline and online maniftestation
... epubweb talks about these web publications which have offline and online maniftestation ←
15:48:57 <dauwhe> ... the whole addressing may become much easier
... the whole addressing may become much easier ←
15:49:06 <dauwhe> ... because it's closely bound to what happens online
... because it's closely bound to what happens online ←
15:49:14 <dauwhe> ... maybe we don't need anything special
... maybe we don't need anything special ←
15:49:24 <dauwhe> ... but we need to address all media and fragments in media
... but we need to address all media and fragments in media ←
15:49:32 <mgylling> q+
Markus Gylling: q+ ←
15:49:33 <dauwhe> ... bill and markus?
... bill and markus? ←
15:49:39 <tzviya> ack mg
Tzviya Siegman: ack mg ←
15:49:47 <dauwhe> mgylling: I'm happy to take over the mumbling
Markus Gylling: I'm happy to take over the mumbling ←
15:50:13 <dauwhe> ... the core issue is that addressing a publication with a primary identifier should be transparent to online/offline status
... the core issue is that addressing a publication with a primary identifier should be transparent to online/offline status ←
15:50:20 <dauwhe> ... the mechanism has to be the same
... the mechanism has to be the same ←
15:50:39 <dauwhe> ... you touched upon it, it might not be that difficult
... you touched upon it, it might not be that difficult ←
15:50:48 <dauwhe> ... let the online version be canonical
... let the online version be canonical ←
15:50:55 <dauwhe> ... so when a publiscation goes offline
... so when a publication goes offline ←
15:51:05 <dauwhe> ... all it needs to do is carry with it that original url
... all it needs to do is carry with it that original url ←
15:51:12 <tzviya> s/publiscation/publication
15:51:14 <dauwhe> ... so incoming references can be dealt with
... so incoming references can be dealt with ←
15:51:20 <dauwhe> ... in short, one can say
... in short, one can say ←
15:51:36 <dauwhe> ... either pub lives at url or it doesn't, but it has that URL as it's most basic identifier
... either pub lives at url or it doesn't, but it has that URL as it's most basic identifier ←
15:51:54 <dauwhe> ... this wouldn't prevent at all the more luxurious things like DOI
... this wouldn't prevent at all the more luxurious things like DOI ←
15:52:01 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
Bill Kasdorf: q+ ←
15:52:06 <tzviya> ack bill
Tzviya Siegman: ack bill ←
15:52:22 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: speaking as one who is participating in a sickening number of groups on identifiers
Bill Kasdorf: speaking as one who is participating in a sickening number of groups on identifiers ←
15:52:26 <dauwhe> ... i like this approach
... i like this approach ←
15:52:32 <dauwhe> ... becasue it's identifier-agnostic
... becasue it's identifier-agnostic ←
15:52:42 <dauwhe> ... if we try to mandate something, it won't fly
... if we try to mandate something, it won't fly ←
15:52:57 <dauwhe> ... book industry has a problem 'cause of no work identifier
... book industry has a problem 'cause of no work identifier ←
15:53:04 <dauwhe> ... it simplifies whole thing
... it simplifies whole thing ←
15:53:15 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
15:53:21 <dauwhe> ... express the url however you want, here's how you handle it when publication goes offline
... express the url however you want, here's how you handle it when publication goes offline ←
15:53:30 <dauwhe> ... but use whatever identifier you want in the url
... but use whatever identifier you want in the url ←
15:53:39 <tzviya> ack iv
Tzviya Siegman: ack iv ←
15:53:41 <dauwhe> ... the simplicity is powerful and practical
... the simplicity is powerful and practical ←
15:53:50 <dauwhe> ivan: continuing what you said
Ivan Herman: continuing what you said ←
15:54:01 <dauwhe> ... what you have here is an operational description
... what you have here is an operational description ←
15:54:10 <dauwhe> ... an identifier points to something on the web
... an identifier points to something on the web ←
15:54:27 <dauwhe> ... if I make a GET request what I get is either a package or a specialized web manifest
... if I make a GET request what I get is either a package or a specialized web manifest ←
15:54:46 <dauwhe> ... in a future architecture, when I get a package it will be handled by service workers
... in a future architecture, when I get a package it will be handled by service workers ←
15:54:54 <dauwhe> ... so what's important is the manifest
... so what's important is the manifest ←
15:55:14 <Bill_Kasdorf> Also +1 to web manifest
Bill Kasdorf: Also +1 to web manifest ←
15:55:17 <dauwhe> ... the internals of the package falls back to what is usual ...
... the internals of the package falls back to what is usual ... ←
15:55:29 <tzviya> q?
Tzviya Siegman: q? ←
15:55:56 <dauwhe> ivan: I don't know if the fragments per se need to be dealt with for publications
Ivan Herman: I don't know if the fragments per se need to be dealt with for publications ←
15:56:19 <dauwhe> ... we just need to deal with the various media types
... we just need to deal with the various media types ←
15:56:27 <dauwhe> ... we should NOT define our own fragment identifiers
... we should NOT define our own fragment identifiers ←
15:56:30 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
Bill Kasdorf: +1 ←
15:56:46 <shepazu> q+
Doug Schepers: q+ ←
15:56:48 <dauwhe> ... what we should do is work out some examples of what happens in various situations
... what we should do is work out some examples of what happens in various situations ←
15:57:02 <dauwhe> ... and how the procedures, the http protocols work, when a publication is here or there
... and how the procedures, the http protocols work, when a publication is here or there ←
15:57:14 <dauwhe> ... and how it's done in internal vs external reference
... and how it's done in internal vs external reference ←
15:57:18 <tzviya> ack sh
Tzviya Siegman: ack sh ←
15:57:22 <dauwhe> ... we should go through these exercises
... we should go through these exercises ←
15:57:37 <dauwhe> shepazu: the notion of anchoring is taken up by web annotations WG
Doug Schepers: the notion of anchoring is taken up by web annotations WG ←
15:57:59 <dauwhe> ... with notion of rangefinder API; a fpwd will be published in next few weeks
... with notion of rangefinder API; a fpwd will be published in next few weeks ←
15:58:01 <dauwhe> tzviya: cool
Tzviya Siegman: cool ←
15:58:28 <dauwhe> ... the idea of using any fragment id is nice and flexible, it loses some of the things we're striving for
... the idea of using any fragment id is nice and flexible, it loses some of the things we're striving for ←
15:58:34 <dauwhe> ... the degradation of URLs with citations
... the degradation of URLs with citations ←
15:58:42 <dauwhe> ... if annotations support that we're good
... if annotations support that we're good ←
15:58:56 <dauwhe> ... we want to make sure all the things we talked about in epubweb are supported
... we want to make sure all the things we talked about in epubweb are supported ←
15:59:05 <dauwhe> ivan: we need to work out some scenarios
Ivan Herman: we need to work out some scenarios ←
15:59:09 <tzviya> q?
Tzviya Siegman: q? ←
15:59:18 <dauwhe> ... how would these things works, where are those devils who are in the details
... how would these things works, where are those devils who are in the details ←
15:59:33 <dauwhe> ... but we have a whole new charter to tell us how to do this :)
... but we have a whole new charter to tell us how to do this :) ←
15:59:39 <dauwhe> tzviya: any more comments?
Tzviya Siegman: any more comments? ←
15:59:43 <dauwhe> tzviya: thanks everyone
Tzviya Siegman: thanks everyone ←
16:01:35 <tmichel> rrsagent, draft minutes
Thierry Michel: rrsagent, draft minutes ←
16:01:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/22-dpub-minutes.html tmichel
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/22-dpub-minutes.html tmichel ←
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