IRC log of dpub on 2015-06-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:57:09 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/06/22-dpub-irc
14:57:11 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:57:11 [Zakim]
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14:57:13 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be dpub
14:57:13 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
14:57:14 [trackbot]
Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
14:57:14 [trackbot]
Date: 22 June 2015
14:57:46 [ivan]
Chair: Markus
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14:59:58 [brady_duga]
present+ duga
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15:00:09 [ivan]
present+ ivan_herman
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15:00:18 [ivan]
present+ doug_schepers
15:00:30 [ivan]
present+ markus_gylling
15:00:40 [dauwhe]
present+ Dave_Cramer
15:00:45 [ivan]
present+shinyu_murakami
15:00:53 [ivan]
present+ tzviya_siegman
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15:00:55 [tzviya]
present+ tzviya_siegman
15:01:17 [ivan]
present dave_cramer
15:01:25 [dkaplan3]
present+ deborah_kaplan
15:01:41 [kwkbtr]
present+ Toru_Kawakubo
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15:01:45 [astearns]
present+ astearns
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15:01:51 [ivan]
present+ charles_lapierre
15:01:54 [mgylling]
present+ mgylling
15:02:00 [Julie]
+ julie morris
15:02:05 [Bill_Kasdorf]
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15:02:06 [ivan]
present+ michael_miller
15:02:07 [bjdmeest]
Present+ Ben_De_Meester
15:02:12 [ivan]
present+ julie_morris
15:02:18 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Present+ Bill_Kasdorf
15:02:36 [ivan]
scribenick: dauwhe
15:02:53 [ivan]
agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/5582D1E1.7030707@gmail.com
15:03:01 [dauwhe]
[general hilarity]
15:03:14 [TimCole]
Present+ Tim_Cole
15:03:18 [ivan]
present+ toru_kawakubo
15:03:37 [tzviya]
chair: tzviya
15:03:40 [tzviya]
agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Jun/0076.html
15:04:12 [dauwhe]
[unicode humor]
15:04:17 [dauwhe]
tzviya: let's get started
15:04:31 [ayla_stein]
present+ Ayla Stein
15:04:33 [pkra]
Present+ pkra
15:04:36 [tzviya]
http://www.w3.org/2015/06/15-dpub-minutes.html
15:04:37 [dauwhe]
... last week's minutes
15:04:40 [dauwhe]
... any comments?
15:04:49 [dauwhe]
... minutes approved
15:05:02 [tzviya]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jun/0091.html
15:05:12 [dauwhe]
... PF has asked the publishing community to look at aria-described-at
15:05:22 [dauwhe]
... it's at risk and might be removed
15:05:29 [dauwhe]
... Rich has asked us to send comments
15:05:40 [dauwhe]
... we discussed this on friday
15:05:52 [Karen]
Present+ Karen
15:06:02 [dauwhe]
dkaplan3: described-at is vvery valuable for digital publishing a11y
15:06:15 [dauwhe]
... some of the concerns about longdesc are addressed by this
15:06:17 [ivan]
s/vvery/very/
15:06:30 [dauwhe]
... some concerns are not addressed, but we still think it's valuable
15:06:42 [dauwhe]
... very powerful: any element can reference something further away
15:06:49 [dauwhe]
... we think it would be good for dpub
15:06:55 [Bill_Kasdorf]
q+
15:07:04 [dauwhe]
tzviya: right now publishing is embracing a11y, but it's in early stages
15:07:14 [dauwhe]
... took me 18mo to get my company to use alt text
15:07:25 [dauwhe]
... we're a slow moving industry
15:07:35 [Bill_Kasdorf]
+1 to Tzviya
15:07:35 [dauwhe]
... we like a11y and want to support it
15:07:50 [dauwhe]
... but it's tricky to say if we don't use this right away, it will be removed
15:08:08 [dauwhe]
dkaplan3: the publishers want us to tell them what to do
15:08:09 [tmichel]
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15:08:19 [dauwhe]
... they will adopt them at glacial speed, along with reading tools
15:08:30 [dauwhe]
... must be supported by user agents
15:08:45 [tzviya]
ack Bill
15:08:45 [dauwhe]
... they want us to say "here is what you can use"
15:08:54 [dauwhe]
Bill_Kasdorf: quick question
15:09:11 [dauwhe]
... is the key point that longdesc and described-at are not the same thing
15:09:27 [dauwhe]
... some folks who hate longdesc also hate described-at
15:09:34 [dauwhe]
... sometimes for the same reasons
15:09:37 [ivan]
q+
15:09:52 [tzviya]
ack ivan
15:09:55 [dauwhe]
dkaplan3: we want both
15:10:02 [dauwhe]
ivan: I was not part of this discussion
15:10:12 [dauwhe]
... what is the problem with the attribute? Why is it questioned?
15:10:13 [tmichel]
present+ thierry
15:11:08 [dauwhe]
dkaplan3: when you are talking about offline reading, having an attribute referencing content that's not packaged is a concern
15:11:15 [ivan]
q+
15:11:20 [dauwhe]
... is it worth addressing? We think so.
15:11:21 [tzviya]
ack ivan
15:11:49 [dauwhe]
ivan: one thing we want to achieve is making offline/online distinction secondary
15:11:59 [Bill_Kasdorf]
q+
15:12:04 [dauwhe]
... content may be offline now, but may be online in two hours or two minutes
15:12:22 [dkaplan3]
q+
15:12:24 [tzviya]
ack bill
15:12:41 [clapierre1]
q+
15:12:41 [dauwhe]
Bill_Kasdorf: that reinforces argument that we need both
15:13:02 [dauwhe]
tzviya: we have lots to do
15:13:06 [tzviya]
ack dkap
15:13:16 [dauwhe]
dkaplan3: a good thing from dpub would be
15:14:07 [dauwhe]
... use cases showing how these descriptions are really big or really frequent
15:14:12 [tzviya]
ack ch
15:14:18 [tzviya]
ack cl
15:14:19 [dauwhe]
... and so they do need to be linked from somewhere else
15:14:21 [tmichel]
rrsagaent, draft minutes
15:14:30 [dauwhe]
clapierre1: longdesc is not an a11y attribute, aria is
15:14:33 [tmichel]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:14:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/22-dpub-minutes.html tmichel
15:14:56 [dauwhe]
... because it's an a11y attribute, it should be something else, so it can be used for anything
15:15:13 [dauwhe]
tzviya: next steps for this group
15:15:28 [dauwhe]
... dkapan3, could you write up a few sentences to send to Rich and friends
15:15:39 [dauwhe]
... it's important, we may not be able to embrace immediately, but we're coming
15:15:47 [dauwhe]
ivan: I can read it
15:16:01 [dauwhe]
tzviya: this is where our role as liason to BISG would come in
15:16:14 [dauwhe]
Julie: we can also mention that in a bulletin
15:16:28 [pkra]
stem
15:16:35 [dauwhe]
tzviya: as soon as I find the agenda I'll talk about what's next
15:16:45 [ivan]
Topic: STEM Survey
15:16:55 [dauwhe]
pkra: update
15:17:00 [dauwhe]
... we're still working on survey
15:17:03 [dauwhe]
... making progress
15:17:12 [dauwhe]
... some tech difficulties which have been resolved
15:17:19 [dauwhe]
... vacations have been resolved ;)
15:17:39 [tzviya]
q?
15:17:45 [dauwhe]
... we had summary from w3c form system
15:17:54 [dauwhe]
... generated the source data
15:18:03 [dauwhe]
... Nick pushed it into an SQL database so we could query
15:18:20 [ayla_stein]
fire alarm, have to leave
15:18:26 [dauwhe]
... we have this database, and tim has explored
15:18:40 [dauwhe]
... can get advanced slices of data
15:18:57 [dauwhe]
... now we can slice up data based on background of respondents
15:19:01 [TimCole]
I am on the call.
15:19:37 [dauwhe]
... people who are publishers point to lack of w3c standards
15:19:43 [dauwhe]
... but authors didn't mention this
15:19:48 [dauwhe]
... so we get useful information
15:19:51 [dauwhe]
... next steps?
15:19:57 [dauwhe]
... planning a meeting of task force soon
15:20:12 [dauwhe]
... jump right in to writing the note
15:20:19 [dauwhe]
... based on survey structure
15:20:29 [dauwhe]
... and we can create better queries
15:20:52 [dauwhe]
... the more you look at survey the more it becomes clear it's limited in it's usefulness
15:21:00 [dauwhe]
... not a representative sample
15:21:21 [dauwhe]
... 2nd problem is responses have limited quality
15:21:28 [dauwhe]
... which is the fault of the survey
15:21:50 [dauwhe]
... there aren't actually many obvious patterns
15:21:58 [dauwhe]
... which could further the work of task force
15:22:10 [dauwhe]
... people are unhappy with lack of MathML support in browsers
15:22:14 [dauwhe]
... but this is not a surprise
15:22:15 [tzviya]
q+
15:22:26 [dauwhe]
... we will see some interesting snippets
15:22:34 [dauwhe]
... we're working on it, we're making progress
15:22:42 [dauwhe]
... the bigger question is what we can do next
15:23:02 [dauwhe]
... the survey has not been super-helpful
15:23:20 [dauwhe]
... I now have more ideas on MathML
15:23:35 [Karen]
q+
15:24:01 [tzviya]
ack kar
15:24:44 [dauwhe]
Karen: what kind of people do we want on this task force, and what deliverables are short and long term possibilities?
15:24:50 [dauwhe]
... what are we inviting them to work on?
15:24:51 [TimCole]
q+
15:25:04 [dauwhe]
... that's a q for peter and wider group
15:25:10 [ivan]
q+
15:25:13 [dauwhe]
pkra: work on whatever they work on, which may sound ridiculous
15:25:27 [dauwhe]
... we have the example of chemistry where there's a strong xml standard
15:25:35 [dauwhe]
... but there's nothting that ties into w3c work
15:25:46 [dauwhe]
... we need to find people to bring the right kind of abilities
15:25:52 [dauwhe]
... and here I'm not the expert
15:26:03 [dauwhe]
tzviya: we've had more feedback on workflow than tech issues
15:26:10 [dauwhe]
... people hack it
15:26:26 [dauwhe]
... chemistry, physics, any sciences
15:26:40 [tzviya]
ack tzv
15:26:42 [pkra]
q+
15:26:48 [dauwhe]
... we don't want to create work for ourselves
15:26:54 [tzviya]
ack Tim
15:26:59 [dauwhe]
... if it's not immediate we have enough to do
15:27:49 [dauwhe]
TimCole: we need to do human reading of data
15:28:03 [Bill_Kasdorf]
+1 to Tim
15:28:03 [dauwhe]
... and come up with more succinct survey, that could be filled out by larger group
15:28:19 [Karen]
+1 focused quantitative survey built on top of qualitative work Peter did
15:28:24 [dauwhe]
... many answers said, "we should have asked this"
15:28:52 [dauwhe]
... interesting dicotomies
15:29:13 [dauwhe]
... particular content types could benefit from standardization, but list was divergent
15:29:33 [tzviya]
ack ivan
15:29:50 [dauwhe]
ivan: putting on my w3c hat
15:29:56 [dauwhe]
... an interesting question would be
15:30:18 [dauwhe]
... are there formats like mathml that need standardization
15:30:23 [dauwhe]
... and can be done at w3c
15:30:34 [dauwhe]
... this kind of input would be useful
15:30:50 [dauwhe]
... there are a number of formats out there that are created for different purposes
15:31:02 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Re Ivan's question, I'd suggest chemistry and 3D
15:31:03 [dauwhe]
... do we know what they are, how mature, do they need a home?
15:31:14 [dauwhe]
... chemistry, 3d, probably others
15:31:39 [dauwhe]
... I told you about doug and I brining in musicML
15:31:52 [dauwhe]
s/brining/bringing/
15:32:01 [tzviya]
ack pk
15:32:07 [dauwhe]
... knowing about the needs would be valuable for w3c management
15:32:27 [dauwhe]
pkra: another example
15:32:49 [dauwhe]
... the jupiter notebook format, a computational document format
15:33:00 [dauwhe]
... there's an opportunity, but it's very early on
15:33:14 [dauwhe]
... both the iPython people and publishers see that this could be standardized
15:33:17 [dauwhe]
... but it's too soon
15:33:31 [dauwhe]
... i don't know which of these things fit well with mission of w3c
15:33:38 [dauwhe]
... it's very application specific right now
15:33:48 [dauwhe]
... but could be more general purpose in 3 or 5 or ten years
15:33:54 [Bill_Kasdorf]
One way to pose the question to publishers would be "what formats would it be useful for browsers to natively understand?"
15:33:54 [dauwhe]
tzviya: we have full agenda
15:34:13 [dauwhe]
... it's a work in progress, we'll know more in a few weeks, and task force will be drafting a note
15:34:21 [dauwhe]
... sounds like you need more human-power
15:34:43 [dauwhe]
pkra: we have enough people but not enough time
15:35:02 [dauwhe]
tzviya: we'll takl about timelines. when do you expect draft will get started
15:35:14 [dauwhe]
pkra: will be started at next TF meeting, this week or next week
15:35:21 [dauwhe]
tzviya: we have timeline in our charter
15:35:27 [dauwhe]
... let's talk about timelines offline
15:35:35 [tzviya]
http://www.w3.org/2015/06/mathmlpas.html
15:35:46 [dauwhe]
tzviya: Karen emailed about ISO standardization of MathML and how they need support statements
15:35:55 [pkra]
+1
15:35:59 [dauwhe]
Karen: send them to me. Quote, org name, attribution, title
15:36:06 [tzviya]
https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/dpub.html
15:36:11 [ivan]
Topic: DPUB-ARIA
15:36:12 [dauwhe]
tzviya: the digital publishing module of ARIA
15:36:37 [dauwhe]
... biggest change is a note
15:37:10 [dauwhe]
... mentioning that we're formally requesting feedback from publishing, and specifically IDPF
15:37:31 [dauwhe]
... "don't use this until we resolve confusion w/ EPUB structural semantics vocab"
15:37:38 [dauwhe]
mgylling: you got it all
15:37:50 [tzviya]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Jun/0075.html
15:37:52 [ivan]
Topic: CSS Priority Use case
15:37:56 [dauwhe]
tzviya: some additions to css priorities use cases on cjk
15:38:27 [dauwhe]
murakami: I received a comment from chinese layout task force
15:39:03 [dauwhe]
... bopomofo is listed ???
15:39:09 [murakami]
http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-ruby-1/#valdef-ruby-position-inter-character
15:40:04 [ivan]
q+
15:40:09 [dauwhe]
murakami: bopomofo should be listed in CSS priority list
15:40:23 [tzviya]
marakami: chinese layout TF said bopofomo should be listed in these requirements
15:40:32 [dauwhe]
... Chinese needs this
15:40:37 [tzviya]
ack ivan
15:40:42 [dauwhe]
ivan: two things
15:40:57 [dauwhe]
... Bobby told us about this before, it's important for traditional chinese
15:41:13 [dauwhe]
... my problem is not with what murakami added
15:41:21 [dauwhe]
... we know that css modules do deal with ruby
15:41:30 [dauwhe]
... also try to take care of bopomofo
15:41:34 [dauwhe]
... we know that's happening
15:41:45 [dauwhe]
... but what are things that are needed but are not happening in CSS
15:42:18 [dauwhe]
... how to distinguish between what's important but being taken care of
15:42:25 [dauwhe]
... and what isn't being taken care of
15:42:27 [tzviya]
q?
15:42:32 [dauwhe]
... we need priorities here
15:42:49 [dauwhe]
tzviya: murakami, can you take care of that?
15:42:56 [dauwhe]
murakami: yes
15:43:02 [dauwhe]
... i have to find the priority
15:44:01 [tzviya]
https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/CSS_Priorities_for_the_Digital_Publishing_Community#CJK
15:44:24 [tzviya]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Jun/0001.html
15:44:30 [dauwhe]
tzviya: with fifteen minutes left, we get to today's discussion topic
15:44:41 [dauwhe]
... talking about packages and how to identify them
15:44:58 [dauwhe]
... at F2F we talked about packages, fragment identifiers, and primary identifiers
15:45:04 [dauwhe]
... and whether we need a package
15:45:13 [dauwhe]
... I'll turn it over to markus and ivan
15:45:32 [dauwhe]
mgylling: ivan, can you give us a summary?
15:45:43 [dauwhe]
ivan: i can try
15:45:56 [dauwhe]
... we discussed at F2F and later
15:46:04 [dauwhe]
... whether we need packaging, what format, etc
15:46:13 [dauwhe]
... and we talked about identification of package
15:46:21 [dauwhe]
... on the mailing list we had vague conclusion
15:46:32 [dauwhe]
... what we need is an abstract concept
15:46:41 [dauwhe]
... i don't want to use the word package
15:47:03 [dauwhe]
... a web document which is not the same as a web page
15:47:17 [dauwhe]
... which contains all the dependencies in one place
15:47:27 [dauwhe]
... along with pages that are logically included
15:47:37 [dauwhe]
... if it's offline it's in a package
15:47:46 [dauwhe]
... if it's online there's no real term
15:47:56 [dauwhe]
... bill was pushing for word publication
15:48:05 [dauwhe]
... more a conceptual thing than technical thing
15:48:12 [dauwhe]
... helps keep our mind focused
15:48:20 [dauwhe]
... can be tightly bound to web manifest
15:48:25 [Bill_Kasdorf]
A publication can contain many documents, and it can be packaged or not packaged.
15:48:27 [tzviya]
+1
15:48:31 [dauwhe]
... which is equiv of package file in epub
15:48:45 [tzviya]
+1 to web manifest. that is
15:48:49 [dauwhe]
... epubweb talks about these web publications which have offline and online maniftestation
15:48:57 [dauwhe]
... the whole addressing may become much easier
15:49:06 [dauwhe]
... because it's closely bound to what happens online
15:49:14 [dauwhe]
... maybe we don't need anything special
15:49:24 [dauwhe]
... but we need to address all media and fragments in media
15:49:32 [mgylling]
q+
15:49:33 [dauwhe]
... bill and markus?
15:49:39 [tzviya]
ack mg
15:49:47 [dauwhe]
mgylling: I'm happy to take over the mumbling
15:50:13 [dauwhe]
... the core issue is that addressing a publication with a primary identifier should be transparent to online/offline status
15:50:20 [dauwhe]
... the mechanism has to be the same
15:50:39 [dauwhe]
... you touched upon it, it might not be that difficult
15:50:48 [dauwhe]
... let the online version be canonical
15:50:55 [dauwhe]
... so when a publiscation goes offline
15:51:05 [dauwhe]
... all it needs to do is carry with it that original url
15:51:12 [tzviya]
s/publiscation/publication
15:51:14 [dauwhe]
... so incoming references can be dealt with
15:51:20 [dauwhe]
... in short, one can say
15:51:36 [dauwhe]
... either pub lives at url or it doesn't, but it has that URL as it's most basic identifier
15:51:54 [dauwhe]
... this wouldn't prevent at all the more luxurious things like DOI
15:52:01 [Bill_Kasdorf]
q+
15:52:06 [tzviya]
ack bill
15:52:22 [dauwhe]
Bill_Kasdorf: speaking as one who is participating in a sickening number of groups on identifiers
15:52:26 [dauwhe]
... i like this approach
15:52:32 [dauwhe]
... becasue it's identifier-agnostic
15:52:42 [dauwhe]
... if we try to mandate something, it won't fly
15:52:57 [dauwhe]
... book industry has a problem 'cause of no work identifier
15:53:04 [dauwhe]
... it simplifies whole thing
15:53:15 [ivan]
q+
15:53:21 [dauwhe]
... express the url however you want, here's how you handle it when publication goes offline
15:53:30 [dauwhe]
... but use whatever identifier you want in the url
15:53:39 [tzviya]
ack iv
15:53:41 [dauwhe]
... the simplicity is powerful and practical
15:53:50 [dauwhe]
ivan: continuing what you said
15:54:01 [dauwhe]
... what you have here is an operational description
15:54:10 [dauwhe]
... an identifier points to something on the web
15:54:27 [dauwhe]
... if I make a GET request what I get is either a package or a specialized web manifest
15:54:46 [dauwhe]
... in a future architecture, when I get a package it will be handled by service workers
15:54:54 [dauwhe]
... so what's important is the manifest
15:55:14 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Also +1 to web manifest
15:55:17 [dauwhe]
... the internals of the package falls back to what is usual ...
15:55:29 [tzviya]
q?
15:55:56 [dauwhe]
ivan: I don't know if the fragments per se need to be dealt with for publications
15:56:19 [dauwhe]
... we just need to deal with the various media types
15:56:27 [dauwhe]
... we should NOT define our own fragment identifiers
15:56:30 [Bill_Kasdorf]
+1
15:56:46 [shepazu]
q+
15:56:48 [dauwhe]
... what we should do is work out some examples of what happens in various situations
15:57:02 [dauwhe]
... and how the procedures, the http protocols work, when a publication is here or there
15:57:14 [dauwhe]
... and how it's done in internal vs external reference
15:57:18 [tzviya]
ack sh
15:57:22 [dauwhe]
... we should go through these exercises
15:57:37 [dauwhe]
shepazu: the notion of anchoring is taken up by web annotations WG
15:57:59 [dauwhe]
... with notion of rangefinder API; a fpwd will be published in next few weeks
15:58:01 [dauwhe]
tzviya: cool
15:58:28 [dauwhe]
... the idea of using any fragment id is nice and flexible, it loses some of the things we're striving for
15:58:34 [dauwhe]
... the degradation of URLs with citations
15:58:42 [dauwhe]
... if annotations support that we're good
15:58:56 [dauwhe]
... we want to make sure all the things we talked about in epubweb are supported
15:59:05 [dauwhe]
ivan: we need to work out some scenarios
15:59:09 [tzviya]
q?
15:59:18 [dauwhe]
... how would these things works, where are those devils who are in the details
15:59:33 [dauwhe]
... but we have a whole new charter to tell us how to do this :)
15:59:39 [dauwhe]
tzviya: any more comments?
15:59:43 [dauwhe]
tzviya: thanks everyone
16:01:35 [tmichel]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:01:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/22-dpub-minutes.html tmichel
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