Meeting Record

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Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 57 minutes ←

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 3782 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), mgylling ←

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see azaroth, clapierre1, dauwhe, Tzviya, pkra, murakami, mgylling, dkaplan3 ←

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see pkra, tzviya, murakami, mgylling, azaroth, dkaplan3, clapierre, dauwhe, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, Karen, ivan, liam, astearns, plinss, trackbot ←

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see azaroth, clapierre1, dauwhe, Tzviya, pkra, murakami, mgylling, dkaplan3, Stearns, ??P29, duga, pBelfanti, TimCole ←

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see pbelfanti, brady_duga, TimCole, pkra, tzviya, murakami, mgylling, azaroth, dkaplan3, clapierre, dauwhe, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, Karen, ivan, liam, astearns, plinss, ←

Peter Krautzberger: ... some task forces have not yet update the tracker for achievables ←

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see azaroth, clapierre1, dauwhe, Tzviya, pkra, murakami, mgylling, dkaplan3, Stearns, ??P29, duga, pBelfanti, TimCole, Ivan, Karen_Myers, Vlad, Julie, david_stroup, ←

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see SMc, david_stroup, Julie, Vlad, pbelfanti, brady_duga, TimCole, pkra, tzviya, murakami, mgylling, azaroth, dkaplan3, clapierre, dauwhe, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, Karen, ←

Peter Krautzberger: ... not necessarily a priority for DPUB since latinrec is the target for DPUB IG ←

Peter Krautzberger: ... would like to get more clarity, e.g., IDPF, CSS WG, where this should be going => DPUB IG might be able help ←

Peter Krautzberger: ... doesn't make sense until browsers have paginated view to display these templates ←

Peter Krautzberger: ... get browsers on board for touch/scrollable version and paginated version ←

Tzviya Siegman: it might be helpful to get started for DPUB IG to take a look at what dauwhe and astearns have added [ Scribe Assist by Peter Krautzberger ] ←

Dave Cramer: in the process of writing up something on regions and page templates, footnotes and running heads [ Scribe Assist by Peter Krautzberger ] ←

Peter Krautzberger: ... what we want to do with these tools, here are the properties that we need to achieve these goals ←

Markus Gylling: how do you see this IG and IDPF help out to get this to move forward? Concrete things, plz. [ Scribe Assist by Peter Krautzberger ] ←

Alan Stearns: 1) start threads or respond to threads on www-style mailing list, showing interest in page templates, footnotes, etc [ Scribe Assist by Peter Krautzberger ] ←

Peter Krautzberger: ... if you like paginated view and you have a use case for it then it would be very good to hear about it on the list ←

Peter Krautzberger: ... not clear if it should be done more fundamentally / higher up at W3 ←

Ivan Herman: little bit uncertain about having tag is more interested in low-level architecture issues. [ Scribe Assist by Peter Krautzberger ] ←

Peter Krautzberger: ... would imagine some sort of a document this group should produce on paginated views in general (good arguments etc) ←

Peter Krautzberger: ... some sweet&short document on the importance & challenge of paginated view ←

Peter Krautzberger: ... you have no way of telling which content lands on which page ←

Peter Krautzberger: ... not useful for our purposes when you don't know where e.g. footnotes landed. ←

Peter Krautzberger: ... currently fundamental belief: everything on the web should be done by scrollable view ←

Tzviya Siegman: what we came on with epub/edupub -- content that some people called "card" or "page" [ Scribe Assist by Peter Krautzberger ] ←

Peter Krautzberger: ... would probably have fit before <article> was designed [??? not sure if I caught that right] ←

Peter Krautzberger: ???: as a developer, I look at massive change of bringing in pagination to browsers ←

Peter Krautzberger: ... will take years, probably not to every browser on all devices ←

Peter Krautzberger: ... as a developer I don't know if I will be able to change to it ever. ←

Peter Krautzberger: ... publishers want to be able to say "put this at the top/bottom of the page" ←

Peter Krautzberger: ... so I'm not sure what small steps can get us to statements like that ←

Brady Duga: I'm not sure either but I'm sure that if we only describe giant steps, it is doomed. [ Scribe Assist by Peter Krautzberger ] ←

Peter Krautzberger: ... if a few platforms support, then it would take too much effort away from platforms that don't have such features ←

Peter Krautzberger: ... if you can suggest features that would help move in small steps, I'd love to hear them, I just don't know them ←

Luc Audrain: to add, even in a scrollable window, if we consider the web display is always scrollable, as a publisher we need some information. [ Scribe Assist by Peter Krautzberger ] ←

Peter Krautzberger: ... we need that information in scrollable,e.g, footnotes/notes ←

Peter Krautzberger: ... in long HTML documents, we need to display more information in the context of the reader, even in scrollable ←

Peter Krautzberger: ... if I say the web is scrollable only, what do I need to make contextual information available to the reader? ←

Dave Cramer: to some degree, you'd have the viewport. But then it might end up as a fixed position in the viewport. [ Scribe Assist by Peter Krautzberger ] ←

Ivan Herman: we should be careful not to run ahead. I fully understand Brady's warning. We've had browser devs fighting over this before -- feature coming to one browser but not the other. [ Scribe Assist by Peter Krautzberger ] ←

Peter Krautzberger: ... we still need a document what we would need in an ideal world. ←

Peter Krautzberger: ... then we can discuss where to make compromises to get it rolling ←

Peter Krautzberger: ... I currently don't know where to go to get information on this. ←

Markus Gylling: should we gather common resources to try to collect this document and make this a target for fall? [ Scribe Assist by Peter Krautzberger ] ←

Ivan Herman: dauwhe, re task force update; other languages. We have interest from Chinese specialist. [ Scribe Assist by Peter Krautzberger ] ←

Peter Krautzberger: ... more generally, let's have some coordination call before tpac with Cindy from China [???] [Cindy from China] , i18n group. ←

Peter Krautzberger: ... 1) via Deborah: talk about how a11y task force would work with them. Not 100% sure they can cover everything. ←

Peter Krautzberger: ... 2) structural semantics, whether aria-role can be used for what we have in mind in DPUB IG. ←

Peter Krautzberger: ... personally, 2) is more important since PF is the precise fit ←

Peter Krautzberger: ... to summarize, PF open to idea. They have a plan, will be described later. ←

Peter Krautzberger: ... to develop and maintain extended vocabularies to the role attribute. ←

Peter Krautzberger: ... however: main blocking has been HTML5 with its lock-down of roles. ←

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were azaroth, clapierre1, dauwhe, Tzviya, pkra, murakami, mgylling, dkaplan3, Stearns, duga, TimCole, pBelfanti, Ivan, Karen_Myers, Vlad, Julie, david_stroup, fjh, ←

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see janina, Ivan, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, dkaplan3, Luc, George_Kerscher, Tzviya, Matt_Haas, pBelfanti, Suzann_Keohane, david_stroup ←

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see pbelfanti, Susann_Keohane, richardschwerdtfeger, Luc, tzviya, dkaplan3, janina, ivan, RRSAgent, pkra, murakami, dauwhe, Zakim, fjh, Karen, liam, astearns, plinss, ←

Zakim IRC Bot: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Rich_Schwerdtfeger ←

Zakim IRC Bot: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose TimCole ←

Unknown issues: working on building vocabulary we would like to see added in Open Web Platform ←

Tzviya Siegman: some of these structural elements have associated behaviors. ←

a key reason is because of the way some of these elements interact with assistative technologies ←

Rich -- reluctance to open values up because you might not be able to provide fall back if browser didn't know about values... ←

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, bgaraventa1979, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa' ←

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, bgaraventa1979, I do not see a party named 'Bryan_Garaventa' ←

markus? - may be a non-starter for publishers; hard enough to get them to include basic semantics ←

tzviya - may not be too hard for larger publishers; but for smaller publishers a decision tree might be too much. ←

Rich - but not an issue based on current definitions; even if browser doesn't know about it today, assistive technologies have something to work with... ←

Unknown clown: I'm still getting: This conference is full. Any way to expand the size? ←

Rich - dpub IG wants to use role attribute, but if browser doesn't know about value, then a second value is needed for fall back ←

Rich -- that may be a non-starter, but if you have a single value, falling back to native language may be good enough ←

jon gunderson -- dom may eventually have a computed role. How would fall back option affect computed role? ←

Unknown ShaneM: q+ to ask about the feasibility of using a private vocabulary for some of the epub-unique roles ←

Rich - if we had computed role, could compare it to computed role and if they don't match generate a warning ←

jon 2nd question -- would developers take EPUB3 roles and try to use in HTML 5; would validators distinguish between EPUB3 and HTML5 for validation ←

Ivan - what is the way a separate group can define new roles while HTML 5 group is doing their thing? ←

Shane - roles accepted by Validator are defined by a document that both PF and HTML 5 can edit ←

Ivan - then EPUB could get values added by working with either group, but how big is EPUB list ←

Shane role attribute spec allows for independent role vocabularies to be added by rdfa mechanism ←

markus - some of the EPUB roles will be common, some are more niched (albeit still important) ←

markus - it could be that the niche roles could be separated out in a prefixed way. ←

??? if might be a tough call to say which are the most generic, most crucial ←

Luc Audrain: It would preferable to have a general mechanism for adding vocabulary for EPUB ←

shaneM - validator was rejecting namespaced role values, but they are not opposed to it, just need to close the loop ←

Rich - you don't want to namespace everything that is commonly used -- is this a fair assumption ←

Zakim IRC Bot: Shane_McCarron, you wanted to ask about the feasibility of using a private vocabulary for some of the epub-unique roles ←

tzviya - and if you do namespace more obscure roles, they are less likely to get used. ←

lisa - needs to be successful not just for EPUB authors but also for others with cognitive disabilities ←

Unknown janina: q+ to ask whether we intend these roles only for a11y? Or also for general use? ←

Zakim IRC Bot: janina, you wanted to ask whether we intend these roles only for a11y? Or also for general use? ←

Unknown ShaneM: "Accessibility is for both meat and machine" is something I get to say all the time. ←

janina - overarching question: you don't need a disability to appreciate roles; do we anticipate that this will have a general applicability? ←

Rich - we would do harm if we didn't have a vehicle for opening this up to broader community. ←

ivan - need to see what is next step. We need to document where we want to go and how. ←

markus - that makes sense. one of the things people in idpf want to know is the size of the effort. ←

Rich - need to provide that to dp ig but also other stakeholders within idpf ←

ivan - both groups will be meeting f2f at TPAC. we should try to find time to have a session together ←

janina - we could write a statement with deliverable as well as with a general statement about liaison ←

rich - 1. role attribute value module, 2. a guide for browsers, 3. guidelines for authors ←

we learned in the ARIA 1.1 effort that we had to write specification for implementation ←

ivan - still a little in the dark, what would a guide for browser / user agent guidelines mean? what could dp ig contribute? ←

rich - for a book reader, how do we specify that we want to navigate by book chapter? ←

rich - if you put EPUB semantics in your document, who defines how the browser uses this structure? ←

markus - that seems like something that could stay (for now at least) with dp ig / IDPF ←

ivan - dp ig should look at core accessibility guidelines and see how complete they are for dp ←

tzviya - a lot of what deborah is getting at seems overlaps. can deborah work with tzviya and janina ←

to be clear pf wg wants to help identify gaps, though other groups may work on these issues ←

ivan - tzviya, janina and deborah will try to have a document by about mid-September. follow-up with call or during TPAC ←

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were janina, Ivan, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, dkaplan3, George_Kerscher, Tzviya, Luc, +1.717.635.aaaa, pBelfanti, Suzann_Keohane, david_stroup, Matt_Haas, dauwhe, ←

Zakim IRC Bot: ... Shane_McCarron, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Cynthia_Shelly, [Microsoft], TimCole, mgylling, +1.541.678.aabb, Jon_Gunderson, Matt_King, [IPcaller] ←

Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

Minutes of 25 August 2014