edit

Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

Minutes of 02 June 2014

Seen
Ben Ko, Bert Bos, Bill Kasdorf, Brady Duga, Dave Cramer, David Stroup, Frederick Hirsch, Gerardo Capiel, Ivan Herman, Julie Morris, Karen Myers, Laura Fowler, Liza Daly, Luc Audrain, Madi Solomon, Michael Miller, Paul Belfanti, Peter Krautzberger, Phil Madans, Robert Sanderson, Shinyu Murakami, Timothy Cole, Unknown tim_cole, Vladimir Levantovsky
Regrets
Vladimir Levantovsky, Unknown Alan
Chair
Liza Daly
Scribe
Dave Cramer
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions

None.

Topics

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14:19:02 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/06/02-dpub-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/06/02-dpub-irc

14:19:04 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs public

14:19:06 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be dpub

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be dpub

14:19:06 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 41 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 41 minutes

14:19:07 <trackbot> Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
14:19:07 <trackbot> Date: 02 June 2014
14:19:17 <ivan> Chair: Liza Daly
14:55:37 <Zakim> DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has now started

(No events recorded for 36 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has now started

14:55:44 <Zakim> +AH_Miller

Zakim IRC Bot: +AH_Miller

14:57:56 <Zakim> + +1.212.364.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.212.364.aaaa

14:58:06 <philm> aaaa is philm

Phil Madans: aaaa is philm

14:58:07 <ivan> Regrets: Vladimir, Alan

Scribe problem: the name 'Alan' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Alan Tam Alan Stearns . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

14:58:25 <karen> zakim, code?

Karen Myers: zakim, code?

14:58:25 <Zakim> the conference code is 3782 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), karen

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 3782 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), karen

14:58:25 <AH_Miller> 240- is AH_Miller

Michael Miller: 240- is AH_Miller

14:58:28 <Zakim> + +1.646.336.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.646.336.aabb

14:58:40 <Zakim> +azaroth

Zakim IRC Bot: +azaroth

14:59:08 <Julie> aabb is Julie Morris

Julie Morris: aabb is Julie Morris

14:59:12 <Zakim> +Karen_Myers

Zakim IRC Bot: +Karen_Myers

14:59:25 <Zakim> + +33.1.41.23.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +33.1.41.23.aacc

14:59:25 <Zakim> + +1.617.439.aadd

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.617.439.aadd

14:59:26 <Zakim> +??P11

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P11

14:59:44 <gcapiel> Zakim, ??p11 is me

Gerardo Capiel: Zakim, ??p11 is me

14:59:44 <Zakim> +gcapiel; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +gcapiel; got it

14:59:52 <Luc> aacc is Luc

Luc Audrain: aacc is Luc

15:00:00 <Zakim> + +1.617.324.aaee

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.617.324.aaee

15:00:04 <Zakim> + +1.917.207.aaff

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.917.207.aaff

15:00:10 <dauwhe> Zakim, aaff is me

Dave Cramer: Zakim, aaff is me

15:00:10 <Zakim> +dauwhe; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +dauwhe; got it

15:00:12 <ivan> zakim, aaee is ivan

Ivan Herman: zakim, aaee is ivan

15:00:12 <Zakim> +ivan; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +ivan; got it

15:00:19 <Zakim> +duga

Zakim IRC Bot: +duga

15:00:32 <Zakim> +??P7

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P7

15:00:35 <ivan> zakim, aaaa is philm

Ivan Herman: zakim, aaaa is philm

15:00:35 <Zakim> +philm; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +philm; got it

15:00:39 <Zakim> +benjaminsko

Zakim IRC Bot: +benjaminsko

15:00:48 <ivan> zakim, aacc is Luc

Ivan Herman: zakim, aacc is Luc

15:00:48 <Zakim> +Luc; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Luc; got it

15:00:49 <Zakim> +julie

Zakim IRC Bot: +julie

15:00:56 <murakami> zakim, ??P7 is me

Shinyu Murakami: zakim, ??P7 is me

15:00:56 <Zakim> +murakami; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +murakami; got it

15:01:01 <ivan> zakim, who is here?

Ivan Herman: zakim, who is here?

15:01:01 <Zakim> On the phone I see AH_Miller, philm, +1.646.336.aabb, azaroth, Karen_Myers, Luc, +1.617.439.aadd, gcapiel, ivan, dauwhe, duga, murakami, benjaminsko, julie

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see AH_Miller, philm, +1.646.336.aabb, azaroth, Karen_Myers, Luc, +1.617.439.aadd, gcapiel, ivan, dauwhe, duga, murakami, benjaminsko, julie

15:01:04 <Zakim> On IRC I see liza, benjaminsko, brady_duga, dkaplan3, gcapiel, Luc, Julie, philm, murakami, azaroth, AH_Miller, karen, Zakim, RRSAgent, dauwhe, ivan, pkra1, liam, plinss, astearns,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see liza, benjaminsko, brady_duga, dkaplan3, gcapiel, Luc, Julie, philm, murakami, azaroth, AH_Miller, karen, Zakim, RRSAgent, dauwhe, ivan, pkra1, liam, plinss, astearns,

15:01:04 <Zakim> ... trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: ... trackbot

15:01:24 <ivan> zakim, aadd is liza

Ivan Herman: zakim, aadd is liza

15:01:25 <Zakim> +liza; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +liza; got it

15:01:49 <ivan> zakim, who is here?

Ivan Herman: zakim, who is here?

15:01:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see AH_Miller, philm, +1.646.336.aabb, azaroth, Karen_Myers, Luc, liza, gcapiel, ivan, dauwhe, duga, murakami, benjaminsko, julie

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see AH_Miller, philm, +1.646.336.aabb, azaroth, Karen_Myers, Luc, liza, gcapiel, ivan, dauwhe, duga, murakami, benjaminsko, julie

15:01:52 <Zakim> On IRC I see liza, benjaminsko, brady_duga, dkaplan3, gcapiel, Luc, Julie, philm, murakami, azaroth, AH_Miller, karen, Zakim, RRSAgent, dauwhe, ivan, pkra1, liam, plinss, astearns,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see liza, benjaminsko, brady_duga, dkaplan3, gcapiel, Luc, Julie, philm, murakami, azaroth, AH_Miller, karen, Zakim, RRSAgent, dauwhe, ivan, pkra1, liam, plinss, astearns,

15:01:52 <Zakim> ... trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: ... trackbot

15:02:18 <Zakim> + +1.217.244.aagg

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.217.244.aagg

15:02:20 <Zakim> + +1.201.783.aahh

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.201.783.aahh

15:02:21 <ivan> zakim, liza has dkaplan3

Ivan Herman: zakim, liza has dkaplan3

15:02:22 <Zakim> +dkaplan3; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +dkaplan3; got it

15:02:30 <dauwhe> Zakim, aabb is Julie

Dave Cramer: Zakim, aabb is Julie

15:02:30 <Zakim> +Julie; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Julie; got it

15:02:42 <ivan> zakim, aabb is Julie

Ivan Herman: zakim, aabb is Julie

15:02:44 <Zakim> sorry, ivan, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, ivan, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'

15:03:02 <ivan> zakim, aagg is tim_cole

Ivan Herman: zakim, aagg is tim_cole

15:03:03 <Zakim> +tim_cole; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +tim_cole; got it

15:03:31 <ivan> zakim, aahh is pbelfanti

Ivan Herman: zakim, aahh is pbelfanti

15:03:31 <Zakim> +pbelfanti; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pbelfanti; got it

15:03:41 <ivan> zakim, who is here?

Ivan Herman: zakim, who is here?

15:03:41 <Zakim> On the phone I see AH_Miller, philm, Julie, azaroth, Karen_Myers, Luc, liza, gcapiel, ivan, dauwhe, duga, murakami (muted), benjaminsko, julie, tim_cole, pbelfanti

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see AH_Miller, philm, Julie, azaroth, Karen_Myers, Luc, liza, gcapiel, ivan, dauwhe, duga, murakami (muted), benjaminsko, julie, tim_cole, pbelfanti

15:03:44 <Zakim> liza has dkaplan3

Zakim IRC Bot: liza has dkaplan3

15:03:44 <Zakim> On IRC I see TimCole, Laura_Fowler, liza, benjaminsko, brady_duga, dkaplan3, gcapiel, Luc, Julie, philm, murakami, azaroth, AH_Miller, karen, Zakim, RRSAgent, dauwhe, ivan, pkra1,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see TimCole, Laura_Fowler, liza, benjaminsko, brady_duga, dkaplan3, gcapiel, Luc, Julie, philm, murakami, azaroth, AH_Miller, karen, Zakim, RRSAgent, dauwhe, ivan, pkra1,

15:03:44 <Zakim> ... liam, plinss, astearns, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: ... liam, plinss, astearns, trackbot

15:03:50 <Zakim> +Bert

Zakim IRC Bot: +Bert

15:03:53 <dauwhe> Zakim, aaaa is philm

Dave Cramer: Zakim, aaaa is philm

15:03:53 <Zakim> sorry, dauwhe, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, dauwhe, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'

15:04:02 <Zakim> +Laura_Fowler

Zakim IRC Bot: +Laura_Fowler

15:04:03 <Zakim> +madi

Zakim IRC Bot: +madi

15:04:09 <Zakim> +pkra

Zakim IRC Bot: +pkra

15:04:14 <Zakim> + +1.585.217.aaii

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.585.217.aaii

15:04:20 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe

(Scribe set to Dave Cramer)

15:04:23 <Zakim> +Bill_Kasdorf

Zakim IRC Bot: +Bill_Kasdorf

15:04:53 <liza> http://www.w3.org/2014/05/19-dpub-minutes.html

Liza Daly: http://www.w3.org/2014/05/19-dpub-minutes.html

15:05:00 <dauwhe> Liza: OK to approve minutes?

Liza Daly: OK to approve minutes?

15:05:05 <dauwhe> ... Minutes approved.

... Minutes approved.

15:05:08 <ivan> zakim, aaii is david_stroup

Ivan Herman: zakim, aaii is david_stroup

15:05:09 <Zakim> +david_stroup; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +david_stroup; got it

15:05:16 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

15:05:22 <fjh> zakim, IPCaller is me

Frederick Hirsch: zakim, IPCaller is me

15:05:22 <Zakim> +fjh; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +fjh; got it

15:05:29 <ivan> zakim, who is here?

Ivan Herman: zakim, who is here?

15:05:29 <Zakim> On the phone I see AH_Miller, philm, Julie, azaroth, Karen_Myers, Luc, liza, gcapiel, ivan, dauwhe, duga, murakami (muted), benjaminsko, julie, tim_cole, pbelfanti, Bert,

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see AH_Miller, philm, Julie, azaroth, Karen_Myers, Luc, liza, gcapiel, ivan, dauwhe, duga, murakami (muted), benjaminsko, julie, tim_cole, pbelfanti, Bert,

15:05:32 <Zakim> ... Laura_Fowler, madi, pkra, david_stroup, Bill_Kasdorf, fjh

Zakim IRC Bot: ... Laura_Fowler, madi, pkra, david_stroup, Bill_Kasdorf, fjh

15:05:32 <Zakim> liza has dkaplan3

Zakim IRC Bot: liza has dkaplan3

15:05:32 <Zakim> On IRC I see gcapiel, david_stroup, Bill_Kasdorf, fjh, Bert, TimCole, Laura_Fowler, liza, benjaminsko, brady_duga, dkaplan3, Luc, Julie, philm, murakami, azaroth, AH_Miller, karen,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see gcapiel, david_stroup, Bill_Kasdorf, fjh, Bert, TimCole, Laura_Fowler, liza, benjaminsko, brady_duga, dkaplan3, Luc, Julie, philm, murakami, azaroth, AH_Miller, karen,

15:05:32 <Zakim> ... Zakim, RRSAgent, dauwhe, ivan, pkra1, liam, plinss, astearns, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: ... Zakim, RRSAgent, dauwhe, ivan, pkra1, liam, plinss, astearns, trackbot

15:06:21 <ivan> Present+ Madi

Ivan Herman: Present+ Madi

15:07:07 <dauwhe> Liza: Madi put together interviews at Pearson about Metadata

Liza Daly: Madi put together interviews at Pearson about Metadata

15:07:16 <dauwhe> ... complements Bill Kasdorf's interviews

... complements Bill Kasdorf's interviews

15:07:29 <dauwhe> ... then we can talk about renaming task forces

... then we can talk about renaming task forces

15:07:37 <dauwhe> ... making the names goal-oriented

... making the names goal-oriented

15:07:52 <dauwhe> ... so we don't have to solve every problem in publishing.

... so we don't have to solve every problem in publishing.

15:08:31 <dauwhe> madi: is BIll here?

Madi Solomon: is BIll here?

15:08:49 <dauwhe> ... I did some casual interviews across lots of context

... I did some casual interviews across lots of context

15:09:02 <dauwhe> ... what are your challenges and pain points as you move from print to digital

... what are your challenges and pain points as you move from print to digital

15:09:12 <dauwhe> ... Bill talked to lots of publishers

... Bill talked to lots of publishers

15:09:23 <dauwhe> ... I talked to lots of Pearson folks (educational publishing)

... I talked to lots of Pearson folks (educational publishing)

15:09:32 <dauwhe> ... I interviewed 12 people

... I interviewed 12 people

15:09:49 <dauwhe> ... across global schools/primary schools, vocational, higher ed, and english language teaching

... across global schools/primary schools, vocational, higher ed, and english language teaching

15:09:59 <dauwhe> ... they were very candid

... they were very candid

15:10:04 <dauwhe> ... about their pain points.

... about their pain points.

15:10:13 <dauwhe> ... the report is breezy and easy to read

... the report is breezy and easy to read

15:10:20 <dauwhe> ... even executives can read it!

... even executives can read it!

15:10:32 <dauwhe> ... the top priorities will be no surprise

... the top priorities will be no surprise

15:10:39 <dauwhe> ... when I combined my interviews with Bill's

... when I combined my interviews with Bill's

15:10:47 <dauwhe> ... the results were very different

... the results were very different

15:10:56 <dauwhe> ... lots of differences between edu and trade

... lots of differences between edu and trade

15:11:11 <dauwhe> ... trade books don't get atomized

... trade books don't get atomized

15:11:25 <dauwhe> ... trade talked about ONIX, BISAC, PRISM

... trade talked about ONIX, BISAC, PRISM

15:11:42 <dauwhe> ... Edu publisher want to offer modularized content around particular subjects

... Edu publisher want to offer modularized content around particular subjects

15:11:50 <dauwhe> ... so different components can be mashed up

... so different components can be mashed up

15:12:04 <dauwhe> ... they talk about learning objects

... they talk about learning objects

15:12:19 <dauwhe> ... this is true across all types of education

... this is true across all types of education

15:12:33 <dauwhe> ... students even using this material at home

... students even using this material at home

15:12:56 <dauwhe> ... publishers are focused on getting these resources into all sorts of devices

... publishers are focused on getting these resources into all sorts of devices

15:13:09 <dauwhe> ... top issue reported is (drum roll)

... top issue reported is (drum roll)

15:13:22 <dauwhe> ... governance

... governance

15:13:30 <dauwhe> ... there's enough industry standards

... there's enough industry standards

15:13:46 <dauwhe> ... but the right to refuse is still embedded in traditional publishing process

... but the right to refuse is still embedded in traditional publishing process

15:13:55 <dauwhe> ... so publishers will refuse to add metadata

... so publishers will refuse to add metadata

15:14:03 <dauwhe> ... there's no mechanism from that moment format

... there's no mechanism from that moment format

15:14:10 <dauwhe> ... in content creation and distribution

... in content creation and distribution

15:14:20 <dauwhe> ... there are rights to refuse along the entire workflow

... there are rights to refuse along the entire workflow

15:14:26 <dauwhe> ... and they all exercise that right

... and they all exercise that right

15:14:51 <dauwhe> ... they want some kind of mechanism that says you can't go any further until you complete A and B

... they want some kind of mechanism that says you can't go any further until you complete A and B

15:15:09 <dauwhe> ... it needs to be incorporated/integrated across entire workflow

... it needs to be incorporated/integrated across entire workflow

15:15:21 <dauwhe> ... the next two are ...

... the next two are ...

15:16:08 <dauwhe> ... true for trade, edu, stem

... true for trade, edu, stem

15:16:16 <dauwhe> ... free access is something they're dealing now

... free access is something they're dealing now

15:16:35 <dauwhe> ... so the question is about expressing rights

... so the question is about expressing rights

15:16:56 <dauwhe> ... to express rights for digital mobility, digital downloads, digital views

... to express rights for digital mobility, digital downloads, digital views

15:17:04 <dauwhe> ... which may come from many producers

... which may come from many producers

15:17:10 <dauwhe> ... royalties are a problem.

... royalties are a problem.

15:17:20 <dauwhe> ... if we're chunking content

... if we're chunking content

15:17:31 <dauwhe> ... how much do we charge for the download of a chapter

... how much do we charge for the download of a chapter

15:17:41 <dauwhe> ... tracking things at the low level is hard

... tracking things at the low level is hard

15:18:11 <dauwhe> ... the next thing is Flow. Workflow...

... the next thing is Flow. Workflow...

15:18:23 <dauwhe> ... content creation starts at the signing of an agreement.

... content creation starts at the signing of an agreement.

15:18:31 <dauwhe> ... there are some rights agreed with the author

... there are some rights agreed with the author

15:18:44 <dauwhe> ... but those rights are stuck in the contract, and don't flow with the content

... but those rights are stuck in the contract, and don't flow with the content

15:18:56 <dauwhe> ... we need to migrate metadata from one part of the work to the next

... we need to migrate metadata from one part of the work to the next

15:19:03 <dauwhe> ... at the end of the workflow

... at the end of the workflow

15:19:11 <dauwhe> ... you need to distribute the content

... you need to distribute the content

15:19:19 <dauwhe> ... but they don't know what the rights and metadata are

... but they don't know what the rights and metadata are

15:19:32 <dauwhe> ... so they have to research, translate, convert metadata

... so they have to research, translate, convert metadata

15:19:40 <dauwhe> ... and this is labor-intensive

... and this is labor-intensive

15:19:48 <dauwhe> ... they want a more holistic approach

... they want a more holistic approach

15:20:03 <dauwhe> ... so metadata doesn't just come in at the end

... so metadata doesn't just come in at the end

15:20:04 <Zakim> -pkra

Zakim IRC Bot: -pkra

15:20:16 <dauwhe> ... "metadata is a myth"

... "metadata is a myth"

15:20:32 <dauwhe> ... "there's no metadata, so there's no value, so there's no use case"

... "there's no metadata, so there's no value, so there's no use case"

15:20:42 <Zakim> +pkra

Zakim IRC Bot: +pkra

15:20:46 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: metadata schmetadata

Bill Kasdorf: metadata schmetadata

15:20:47 <Luc> Do they sell any book?

Luc Audrain: Do they sell any book?

15:21:04 <dauwhe> madi: half the respondents don't really know that much about metadata

Madi Solomon: half the respondents don't really know that much about metadata

15:21:28 <dauwhe> ... they don't understand it enough to put it into practice with their teams

... they don't understand it enough to put it into practice with their teams

15:21:33 <dauwhe> ... so it's back to governance

... so it's back to governance

15:21:42 <dauwhe> ... so there's no one saying "this is how it's gonna go"

... so there's no one saying "this is how it's gonna go"

15:21:53 <dauwhe> ... "I don't get a bonus for metadata, I won't do it"

... "I don't get a bonus for metadata, I won't do it"

15:22:08 <dauwhe> ... there needs to be authority to make metadata happen

... there needs to be authority to make metadata happen

15:22:28 <dauwhe> ... needs to happen from top down

... needs to happen from top down

15:22:34 <dauwhe> ... businesses are ready to change

... businesses are ready to change

15:22:44 <dauwhe> ... standards was another common issue

... standards was another common issue

15:22:50 <dauwhe> ... people can't make this up as we go

... people can't make this up as we go

15:23:00 <dauwhe> ... edu publishers must gather around industry standards

... edu publishers must gather around industry standards

15:23:27 <dauwhe> ... we want to offer an oasis to offer recommendations

... we want to offer an oasis to offer recommendations

15:23:37 <dauwhe> ... other answers that were'n't as popular

... other answers that were'n't as popular

15:23:49 <dauwhe> ... inconsistency

... inconsistency

15:24:02 <dauwhe> ... not just between metadata schemas, but between specific terms

... not just between metadata schemas, but between specific terms

15:24:06 <dauwhe> ... lack of incentives

... lack of incentives

15:24:13 <dauwhe> ... which relates to government

... which relates to government

15:24:21 <dauwhe> ... working for the greater good doesn't help THEM

... working for the greater good doesn't help THEM

15:24:28 <dauwhe> ... a need for learning objectives

... a need for learning objectives

15:24:32 <liza> We can offer them an OASIS

Liza Daly: We can offer them an OASIS

15:24:36 <dauwhe> ... from standard curriculum authorities

... from standard curriculum authorities

15:24:43 <liza> (metadata joke)

Liza Daly: (metadata joke)

15:24:54 <dauwhe> ... testing etc. are based on these curriculum authorities

... testing etc. are based on these curriculum authorities

15:25:05 <dauwhe> ... everyone wants someone else to do metadata

... everyone wants someone else to do metadata

15:25:21 <dauwhe> ... they want a 'metadata laundry service'

... they want a 'metadata laundry service'

15:25:42 <dauwhe> ... the conclusion is that everyone has a better understanding

... the conclusion is that everyone has a better understanding

15:25:48 <dauwhe> ... but no one is ready to do something

... but no one is ready to do something

15:25:58 <dauwhe> ... but they want someone else to do that something

... but they want someone else to do that something

15:26:18 <dauwhe> ... so let's synthesize my stuff with Bill Kasdorf's

... so let's synthesize my stuff with Bill Kasdorf's

15:26:36 <dauwhe> ... and there's the content and markup task force

... and there's the content and markup task force

15:26:47 <dauwhe> ... and avoid a piecemeal approach

... and avoid a piecemeal approach

15:26:50 <dauwhe> Liza: thanks!

Liza Daly: thanks!

15:26:58 <pkra1> +1

Peter Krautzberger: +1

15:27:01 <dauwhe> ... what do edu publishers grapple with?

... what do edu publishers grapple with?

15:27:16 <dauwhe> ... trade has been behind on atomic content

... trade has been behind on atomic content

15:27:41 <dauwhe> ... how much is this around having to distribute pieces of content?

... how much is this around having to distribute pieces of content?

15:27:47 <dauwhe> ... and how much is around the basics

... and how much is around the basics

15:28:03 <dauwhe> madi: they're still grappling with where they are and where they're standing

Madi Solomon: they're still grappling with where they are and where they're standing

15:28:10 <dauwhe> ... but they now have a vision of where they need to go

... but they now have a vision of where they need to go

15:28:26 <dauwhe> ... and can articulate that.

... and can articulate that.

15:28:39 <dauwhe> ... some even said that the legacy stuff should be abandoned

... some even said that the legacy stuff should be abandoned

15:28:49 <dauwhe> Ivan: sigh

Ivan Herman: sigh

15:28:51 <Luc> sigh

Luc Audrain: sigh

15:28:55 <TimCole> q+

Timothy Cole: q+

15:29:04 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: Can I add some thoughts?

Bill Kasdorf: Can I add some thoughts?

15:29:12 <dauwhe> TimCole: Go ahead bill

Timothy Cole: Go ahead bill

15:29:42 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: First, fabulous report. It rings true to me, even though I focused on different slice of publishing

Bill Kasdorf: First, fabulous report. It rings true to me, even though I focused on different slice of publishing

15:30:07 <dauwhe> ... and trade and edu focus on different things

... and trade and edu focus on different things

15:30:18 <dauwhe> ... let's be careful not to lose that distinction

... let's be careful not to lose that distinction

15:30:32 <pbelfanti> Apologies, I need to drop

Paul Belfanti: Apologies, I need to drop

15:30:39 <dauwhe> ... a third axis: most were thinking about trade, a subset were from STEM

... a third axis: most were thinking about trade, a subset were from STEM

15:30:55 <dauwhe> ... so we need to think about STEM, as they are different from both trade and edu

... so we need to think about STEM, as they are different from both trade and edu

15:30:55 <Zakim> -pbelfanti

Zakim IRC Bot: -pbelfanti

15:31:20 <dauwhe> ... first, I finally posted my interview with Carol Myer from crossref

... first, I finally posted my interview with Carol Myer from crossref

15:31:28 <dauwhe> ... it's now in the wiki

... it's now in the wiki

15:31:41 <dauwhe> ... what resonated is something that came up in idpf board meeting

... what resonated is something that came up in idpf board meeting

15:31:54 <dauwhe> ... STEM is part of an ecosystem

... STEM is part of an ecosystem

15:32:06 <dauwhe> ... many of them feel that basic metadata is a solved problem

... many of them feel that basic metadata is a solved problem

15:32:20 <dauwhe> ... the xml models all have extensive metadata headers

... the xml models all have extensive metadata headers

15:32:31 <dauwhe> ... they have loads of metadata associated with their content

... they have loads of metadata associated with their content

15:32:44 <dauwhe> ... like the trade publishers, it tends to be product focused

... like the trade publishers, it tends to be product focused

15:32:57 <dauwhe> ... but it's an article rather than a subsection of something

... but it's an article rather than a subsection of something

15:33:04 <dauwhe> ... so not quite like edu

... so not quite like edu

15:33:16 <dauwhe> ... it works well because there's an ecosystem

... it works well because there's an ecosystem

15:33:23 <dauwhe> ... they have to use the metadata

... they have to use the metadata

15:33:34 <dauwhe> ... if they don't have crossref and DOIs they can't so anything

... if they don't have crossref and DOIs they can't so anything

15:33:40 <dauwhe> ... so it's not a waste of time

... so it's not a waste of time

15:33:55 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

15:34:01 <dauwhe> ... now we're in this hybrid of open access and subscription

... now we're in this hybrid of open access and subscription

15:34:09 <dauwhe> ... the content needs to carry rights info

... the content needs to carry rights info

15:34:22 <dauwhe> ... and crossref is building a system to do that, and NISO has a standard

... and crossref is building a system to do that, and NISO has a standard

15:34:34 <dauwhe> ... and crossref has set up fundref, a reference of funders

... and crossref has set up fundref, a reference of funders

15:34:47 <dauwhe> ... so authors can publicly ack. the funders of the research

... so authors can publicly ack. the funders of the research

15:34:59 <dauwhe> ... so the big difference with STEM Is this ecosystem

... so the big difference with STEM Is this ecosystem

15:35:03 <dauwhe> ... one other thing:

... one other thing:

15:35:11 <dauwhe> ... the rights thing is reallly interesting.

... the rights thing is reallly interesting.

15:35:26 <dauwhe> ... it's not just about discovery. You need to know the rights once you discover something.

... it's not just about discovery. You need to know the rights once you discover something.

15:35:41 <dauwhe> ... ??? has a rights working group. It focuses on agents and publishers and authors

... ??? has a rights working group. It focuses on agents and publishers and authors

15:35:54 <dauwhe> ... the news people from IPTC are also focusing on rights metadata.

... the news people from IPTC are also focusing on rights metadata.

15:36:07 <dauwhe> ... the magazine people... PRISM has a rights vocab

... the magazine people... PRISM has a rights vocab

15:36:15 <pkra1> ??? = BISG

Peter Krautzberger: BISG = BISG

15:36:17 <dauwhe> ... it's all siloed; they're not working together

... it's all siloed; they're not working together

15:36:24 <dauwhe> Liza: let's talk about discovery

Liza Daly: let's talk about discovery

15:36:32 <dauwhe> ... the word discovery is not suffiecient

... the word discovery is not suffiecient

15:36:36 <ivan> s/???/BISG/
15:36:48 <liza> ack TimCole

Liza Daly: ack TimCole

15:37:12 <dauwhe> TimCole: Scholarly publishers were meeting in Boston last week.

Timothy Cole: Scholarly publishers were meeting in Boston last week.

15:37:17 <liza> "Discovery and Attribution"? "Discovery and Access"? "Discovery and Rights"?

Liza Daly: "Discovery and Attribution"? "Discovery and Access"? "Discovery and Rights"?

15:37:27 <dauwhe> ... the ecosystem comment is interesting

... the ecosystem comment is interesting

15:37:41 <dauwhe> ... there is an ecosystem in trade, but it's seen as a one time event

... there is an ecosystem in trade, but it's seen as a one time event

15:37:51 <dauwhe> ... Librarians do use ONIX

... Librarians do use ONIX

15:38:05 <dauwhe> ... Librarians add holding info, access info...

... Librarians add holding info, access info...

15:38:14 <dauwhe> ... so metadata gets completed from several sources

... so metadata gets completed from several sources

15:38:19 <liza> "Discovery and Authority"?

Liza Daly: "Discovery and Authority"?

15:38:23 <dauwhe> ... so there's a governance challeng

... so there's a governance challeng

15:38:41 <dauwhe> ... we need to make sure that metadata is augmented/enriched over time

... we need to make sure that metadata is augmented/enriched over time

15:38:49 <dauwhe> ... need to do that in a way that's managed

... need to do that in a way that's managed

15:39:04 <dauwhe> ... first step is that the metadata record at pub time is not the final metadata

... first step is that the metadata record at pub time is not the final metadata

15:39:12 <dauwhe> ... it will update and change over time

... it will update and change over time

15:39:19 <dauwhe> ... we need more organized way to do that

... we need more organized way to do that

15:39:36 <dauwhe> ... part of it is mind-set in different parts of the workflow; what they're responsible for

... part of it is mind-set in different parts of the workflow; what they're responsible for

15:39:47 <liza> ack Ivan

Liza Daly: ack Ivan

15:39:53 <dauwhe> Ivan: one remakr

Ivan Herman: one remakr

15:40:04 <liza> s/rmakr/remark/

Liza Daly: s/rmakr/remark/ (warning: replacement failed)

15:40:05 <dauwhe> wihtout minimizing importance of crossref

wihtout minimizing importance of crossref

15:40:20 <dauwhe> Ivan: the tradition of the scholarly world

Ivan Herman: the tradition of the scholarly world

15:40:27 <dauwhe> ... they already used metadata extensively

... they already used metadata extensively

15:40:32 <dauwhe> ... I was in research

... I was in research

15:40:43 <dauwhe> ... having an exact citiation to another pub is very important

... having an exact citiation to another pub is very important

15:40:49 <dauwhe> ... this is how scholars are judged.

... this is how scholars are judged.

15:40:55 <dauwhe> ... a precise citation is metadata.

... a precise citation is metadata.

15:41:15 <dauwhe> ... crossref is important, but they came into a community that was already ripe for doing it on computers

... crossref is important, but they came into a community that was already ripe for doing it on computers

15:41:20 <dauwhe> ... and that's a big difference

... and that's a big difference

15:41:30 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: publishers demanded crossref be created

Bill Kasdorf: publishers demanded crossref be created

15:41:48 <dauwhe> ... that could be done because metadata was already fundamental in that group

... that could be done because metadata was already fundamental in that group

15:42:08 <dauwhe> ... the header metadata is a required element, the body is optional in these XML vocabs

... the header metadata is a required element, the body is optional in these XML vocabs

15:42:20 <dauwhe> Liza: discovery is optional but important

Liza Daly: discovery is optional but important

15:42:43 <dauwhe> ... there is a 2nd set of metadata is absolutely required for process

... there is a 2nd set of metadata is absolutely required for process

15:42:49 <dauwhe> ... like rights information

... like rights information

15:43:00 <TimCole> q+

Timothy Cole: q+

15:43:06 <liza> ack TimCole

Liza Daly: ack TimCole

15:43:07 <dauwhe> ... maybe that's a useful split: what MUST be there, and what just helps it be discovered

... maybe that's a useful split: what MUST be there, and what just helps it be discovered

15:43:21 <dauwhe> TimCole: There were ??? experiments done before crossref

Timothy Cole: There were ??? experiments done before crossref

15:43:35 <dauwhe> ... when we first submitted records, we typed those records

... when we first submitted records, we typed those records

15:43:45 <dauwhe> ... we were told we included too much metadata

... we were told we included too much metadata

15:44:43 <dauwhe> ... we didn't want to include too much metadata for a particular function. Do the right thing in your system, but don't step on other toes

... we didn't want to include too much metadata for a particular function. Do the right thing in your system, but don't step on other toes

15:44:58 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: crossref is the minimal possible metadata do do the xref function

Bill Kasdorf: crossref is the minimal possible metadata do do the xref function

15:45:12 <dauwhe> ... because they exist, they assume it has ALL metadata

... because they exist, they assume it has ALL metadata

15:45:27 <dauwhe> ... there's an assumption it's a global repo, it's not.

... there's an assumption it's a global repo, it's not.

15:45:34 <dauwhe> ... getting back to Madi's report

... getting back to Madi's report

15:45:37 <dauwhe> ... from edu side

... from edu side

15:45:46 <dauwhe> ... first, the granularity of content is fundamentally important

... first, the granularity of content is fundamentally important

15:45:55 <dauwhe> ... and the other worlds don't want to think that way

... and the other worlds don't want to think that way

15:46:11 <dauwhe> ... but edu has to use that.

... but edu has to use that.

15:46:26 <dauwhe> Liza: don't want to get hung up on what the publishers think of this

Liza Daly: don't want to get hung up on what the publishers think of this

15:46:41 <dauwhe> ... in Safari we need to integrate things from all those different worlds

... in Safari we need to integrate things from all those different worlds

15:46:50 <dauwhe> ... the common ground is more important

... the common ground is more important

15:46:56 <dauwhe> ... and what users get from it

... and what users get from it

15:47:04 <dauwhe> ... what does metadata deliver to the reader?

... what does metadata deliver to the reader?

15:47:20 <dauwhe> ... that's more important that what the traditional publishing silos think.

... that's more important that what the traditional publishing silos think.

15:47:21 <Zakim> -duga

Zakim IRC Bot: -duga

15:47:35 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: Who does the work? That's important

Bill Kasdorf: Who does the work? That's important

15:47:46 <dauwhe> ... where does it come from? Who does it?

... where does it come from? Who does it?

15:47:52 <dauwhe> ... it's someone elses problem

... it's someone elses problem

15:47:56 <TimCole> DOI-X experiments -- http://www.librarytechnology.org/ltg-displaytext.pl?RC=7867

Timothy Cole: DOI-X experiments -- http://www.librarytechnology.org/ltg-displaytext.pl?RC=7867

15:48:10 <dauwhe> ... address at granular level

... address at granular level

15:48:36 <dauwhe> ... different folks might be the authority for different sorts of metadata

... different folks might be the authority for different sorts of metadata

15:48:42 <dauwhe> ... but that doesn't exist right now

... but that doesn't exist right now

15:49:00 <dauwhe> Liza: what do you think are most relevant to OWP?

Liza Daly: what do you think are most relevant to OWP?

15:49:07 <pkra1> 42

Peter Krautzberger: 42

15:50:03 <dauwhe> Ivan: We can say these things are really relevant for OWP

Ivan Herman: We can say these things are really relevant for OWP

15:50:21 <dauwhe> ... or things that we can only draw attention to

... or things that we can only draw attention to

15:50:40 <dauwhe> ... I don't know how much energy it would require to go through docs to identify what OWP could do

... I don't know how much energy it would require to go through docs to identify what OWP could do

15:50:48 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: We need to do this

Bill Kasdorf: We need to do this

15:51:07 <dauwhe> ... Having this report is great

... Having this report is great

15:51:23 <dauwhe> ... can we look at this over the next few weeks?

... can we look at this over the next few weeks?

15:51:26 <dauwhe> Madi: yes

Madi Solomon: yes

15:51:27 <Luc> +q

Luc Audrain: +q

15:51:37 <dauwhe> ... I do believe we're circling the horses

... I do believe we're circling the horses

15:51:48 <dauwhe> ... once we put it together and share with the group

... once we put it together and share with the group

15:51:58 <liza> ack Luc

Liza Daly: ack Luc

15:52:02 <dauwhe> ... I think recommendations will emerge

... I think recommendations will emerge

15:52:23 <dauwhe> Luc: I'm wondering shows that questions of organization and governance

Luc Audrain: I'm wondering shows that questions of organization and governance

15:52:30 <dauwhe> ... but can we do anything about that?

... but can we do anything about that?

15:52:39 <dauwhe> Madi: Can you repeat question?

Madi Solomon: Can you repeat question?

15:53:10 <dauwhe> Luc: the questions are questions of governance. Can this group address such questions? It doesn't seem a natural activity for W3C.

Luc Audrain: the questions are questions of governance. Can this group address such questions? It doesn't seem a natural activity for W3C.

15:53:27 <dauwhe> Madi: Governance within standards is still an issue

Madi Solomon: Governance within standards is still an issue

15:53:41 <gcapiel> q+

Gerardo Capiel: q+

15:53:54 <dauwhe> ... if we can build a coalition among different standards groups

... if we can build a coalition among different standards groups

15:54:05 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: There's a deer-in-headlights reaction

Bill Kasdorf: There's a deer-in-headlights reaction

15:54:14 <dauwhe> ... it's so mind-boggling they can't process it.

... it's so mind-boggling they can't process it.

15:54:14 <liza> ack gcapiel

Liza Daly: ack gcapiel

15:54:23 <dauwhe> ... providing a clearer path forward would be helpful

... providing a clearer path forward would be helpful

15:54:40 <dauwhe> gcapiel: adding metadata at different points in lifecycle

Gerardo Capiel: adding metadata at different points in lifecycle

15:54:50 <dauwhe> ... there's a project called the learning registry

... there's a project called the learning registry

15:54:59 <dauwhe> ... AAP is doing a pilot with it

... AAP is doing a pilot with it

15:55:00 <liza> http://learningregistry.org/ ?

Liza Daly: http://learningregistry.org/ ?

15:55:26 <dauwhe> ... It's a technology platform from Dept of Ed that allows metadata about a resource to be submitted by anyone

... It's a technology platform from Dept of Ed that allows metadata about a resource to be submitted by anyone

15:55:37 <dauwhe> ... we worked on it from a11y perspective

... we worked on it from a11y perspective

15:55:47 <dauwhe> ... someone aligned videos with common core

... someone aligned videos with common core

15:55:57 <dauwhe> ... we came in and described them with schema.org

... we came in and described them with schema.org

15:56:08 <dauwhe> ... multiple people added different types of metadata

... multiple people added different types of metadata

15:56:17 <dauwhe> ... it's a project worth looking at

... it's a project worth looking at

15:56:30 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: that's a good example of the ecosystem thing

Bill Kasdorf: that's a good example of the ecosystem thing

15:56:38 <gcapiel> http://learningregistry.org

Gerardo Capiel: http://learningregistry.org

15:56:40 <dauwhe> ... the existence of a service is good

... the existence of a service is good

15:56:47 <dauwhe> Ivan: that's true for schema.org, too.

Ivan Herman: that's true for schema.org, too.

15:57:11 <dauwhe> Liza: next step is tying it togehter with Bill's work, and then deciding which group at W3C could help with which parts

Liza Daly: next step is tying it together with Bill's work, and then deciding which group at W3C could help with which parts

15:57:21 <dauwhe> Ivan: done by next week :)

Ivan Herman: done by next week :)

15:57:27 <dauwhe> Liza: sure :)

Liza Daly: sure :)

15:57:35 <ivan> s/togehter/together/
15:57:42 <dauwhe> ... let's talk about renaming for metadata on mailing list

... let's talk about renaming for metadata on mailing list

15:57:50 <dauwhe> ... we can also bring that up on next call

... we can also bring that up on next call

15:58:00 <dauwhe> Ivan: I think an email discussion would be useful.

Ivan Herman: I think an email discussion would be useful.

15:58:09 <dauwhe> Liza: I'll start an email thread about it.

Liza Daly: I'll start an email thread about it.

15:58:11 <pkra1> +1

Peter Krautzberger: +1

15:58:15 <Zakim> -gcapiel

Zakim IRC Bot: -gcapiel

15:58:18 <Zakim> -madi

Zakim IRC Bot: -madi

15:58:19 <dauwhe> Liza: I think that's it. We're adjourned.

Liza Daly: I think that's it. We're adjourned.

15:58:19 <Zakim> -philm

Zakim IRC Bot: -philm

15:58:19 <Zakim> -Julie

Zakim IRC Bot: -Julie

15:58:21 <Zakim> -benjaminsko

Zakim IRC Bot: -benjaminsko

15:58:22 <Zakim> -Bill_Kasdorf

Zakim IRC Bot: -Bill_Kasdorf

15:58:22 <Zakim> -azaroth

Zakim IRC Bot: -azaroth

15:58:23 <Zakim> -fjh

Zakim IRC Bot: -fjh

15:58:23 <Zakim> -Karen_Myers

Zakim IRC Bot: -Karen_Myers

15:58:24 <Zakim> -Luc

Zakim IRC Bot: -Luc

15:58:25 <Zakim> -pkra

Zakim IRC Bot: -pkra

15:58:26 <Zakim> -Bert

Zakim IRC Bot: -Bert

15:58:27 <Zakim> -julie

Zakim IRC Bot: -julie

15:58:27 <Zakim> -tim_cole

Scribe problem: the name 'tim_cole' does not match any of the 72 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alan Tam Alan Stearns Ben Ko Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Casey Dougherty Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer David Stroup David Singer Deborah Kaplan Dmitry Shkolnik Edward O'Connor Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Gerardo Capiel Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Ivan Herman Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Julie Morris Jun Fujisawa Karen Myers Kenny Zhang Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Liza Daly Luc Audrain Madi Solomon Manuel Rego Casasnovas Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Michael Miller Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Paolo Ciccarese Paul Belfanti Peter Linss Peter Krautzberger Phil Madans Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Shinyu Murakami Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Timothy Cole Tom Burns Tom Habing Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Vincent Gros Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky akiyoshi ibuki Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Zakim IRC Bot: -tim_cole

15:58:28 <Zakim> -AH_Miller

Zakim IRC Bot: -AH_Miller

15:58:30 <Zakim> -liza

Zakim IRC Bot: -liza

15:58:30 <Zakim> -david_stroup

Zakim IRC Bot: -david_stroup

15:58:30 <Zakim> -Laura_Fowler

Zakim IRC Bot: -Laura_Fowler

15:58:30 <Zakim> -ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: -ivan

15:58:31 <Zakim> -murakami

Zakim IRC Bot: -murakami

16:05:01 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, dauwhe, in DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM

(No events recorded for 6 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: disconnecting the lone participant, dauwhe, in DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM

16:05:02 <Zakim> DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has ended

16:05:02 <Zakim> Attendees were AH_Miller, +1.212.364.aaaa, +1.646.336.aabb, azaroth, Karen_Myers, +33.1.41.23.aacc, +1.617.439.aadd, gcapiel, +1.617.324.aaee, +1.917.207.aaff, dauwhe, ivan, duga,

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were AH_Miller, +1.212.364.aaaa, +1.646.336.aabb, azaroth, Karen_Myers, +33.1.41.23.aacc, +1.617.439.aadd, gcapiel, +1.617.324.aaee, +1.917.207.aaff, dauwhe, ivan, duga,

16:05:02 <Zakim> ... philm, benjaminsko, Luc, julie, murakami, +1.217.244.aagg, +1.201.783.aahh, dkaplan3, tim_cole, pbelfanti, Bert, Laura_Fowler, madi, pkra, +1.585.217.aaii, Bill_Kasdorf,

Zakim IRC Bot: ... philm, benjaminsko, Luc, julie, murakami, +1.217.244.aagg, +1.201.783.aahh, dkaplan3, tim_cole, pbelfanti, Bert, Laura_Fowler, madi, pkra, +1.585.217.aaii, Bill_Kasdorf,

16:05:02 <Zakim> ... david_stroup, fjh

Zakim IRC Bot: ... david_stroup, fjh

16:12:16 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes

(No events recorded for 7 minutes)

Ivan Herman: rrsagent, draft minutes

16:12:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/02-dpub-minutes.html ivan

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/02-dpub-minutes.html ivan

16:12:28 <ivan> trackbot, end telcon

Ivan Herman: trackbot, end telcon

16:12:28 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees

16:12:28 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is

16:12:36 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes

16:12:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/02-dpub-minutes.html trackbot

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/02-dpub-minutes.html trackbot

16:12:37 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye

16:12:37 <RRSAgent> I see no action items

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see no action items



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