See also: IRC log
Evaluation of E2R
<Carol_Ido> How can I, as a web developer, evaluate my website for E2R? Are there published guidelines to follow?
<birgit_p> European Guidelines for e2r you can get here: http://inclusion-europe.org/en/projects/past-projects/pathways-i
<Carol_Ido> Thanks birgit_p, great information on the inclusion-europe site.
<Michael_Schaten> thx birgit, really valuable information from inclusion-europe
<Carol_Ido> Is there a resource that presents side-by-side illustrations of an original source document and one interpreted through an e2r tool?
Different complexity levels, language adaptation issues and their implementation in standards like WCAG 2.0
<Chris>Is it not a bit like visual impairment and blindness? Plain language for the ones with some (diffrerent) reading problems and easy to read for those with more profound reading and understanding challenges? However, WCAG deals with both visual and blindness.
<MatsL> Must not the guidlines refer to the intended readers and consumers of the web content and services?
<Patrick> Could the standards section about language-specific specifications be grouped by language families?
<Leealaura_Leskela> Patrick, that is a good starting point, I think
@Patrick: The "Information for all" standards have a kind of a core of criteria and additional criteria for different language families
<MatsL> Vincent: We should get together after this to discuss possible cooperation in relation between your work and our CCF (Concept Coding Framework) based work, OK?
<Roberto_Tedesco> a "concept lexicon" is basically an ontology
<klaus_miesenberger> could Mats point us to ressources for the concept coding framework
<Chris> Klaus, I agree. But it (on where to allocate plain language / easy to read) could be also be taken up under different level A, AA, AAA.
<klaus> ... good argument - yes, I agree
<Andrew> if e2r gets incorporated into level A it might seem strange to leave sign-language at level AAA
<Chris> Klaus. the process is one important element; a functional description of the kind of outcome of the process could also be an element of a standard.
<klaus> Chris, this is part of any ISO 9000 approach... it pushes towards formulating goals, following standards, including users, ...
Concerning the transfer to different cultural and topical areas
<Chris> Concerning transferability, it looks like putting a framework in WCAG and allow for cultural - language dependent adaptations?
Concerning pictographs, sign languages and graphical representation
<Patrick> @vincent_vandeghinste: About transferability of icons to translated concepts, could we inspire our practice on the approach used in signed language? And is the use of icons a guarantee people with reading issues will attach the appropriate concept (annotation + connotation) to the pictographs?
<Vincent_Vandeghinste> Patrick: Sign languages differ and are considered real 'natural languages', so I think it is not that strong the case with pictographs. Nevertheless they are being developed in specific situations, but they can be transfered
<Vincent_Vandeghinste> Patrick: Children learn to use the pictographs at school, so that helps, of course
<kmataus_>pictographs help to understand the text content.
<Chris> Ported to other languages means newly parameterised at least!?
in parts pictographs / symbols also help to understand written information beyound a language. But please remind that cultures have a big impact on comprehension (i.e. perception how a person understand something.)
<apetz> Also pictorgraphs must be out of the known representations - e.g. senior citizens don´t recognise a pictograph sowing a flat screen as "TV" - came up at a study with domotic controls...
<Vincent_Vandeghinste> Patrick: The use of icons does of course not guarantee that the users will attach the appropriate concept, but the pictographs are rather clear, in my opinion. Of course, this is also not guaranteed with normal language and non-disabled users
<apetz> So it is necessary to test this - even within the same national population...
<Chris> A German study
<Chris> on signs came up with the recommendation to use photos for clarity, at least in some contexts.
Concerning legal regulations for E2R or simplified content and information
<Chris> Did Finland not ratify the UN convention?
<klaus> might not be in the national law ... same in Austria
<klaus> not yet
<Leealaura_Leskela> No not yet ratified in Finland
<Sami_Alli> Yes, it has not been ratified in Finland
<Chris> oops, I did not recignise that. Hope, it will come for Finland.
<Sami_Alli> Chris: we are "a bit" slow on that matter...
<Cordula_Edler> thank you very much for this intersting diskussion. Iwas very surprised who, where and what is in the CHANNEL easy to read. three remarks. 1) e-inclusion and UN-Convention asked for information in easy to read 2) easy to read information in the Web are not only understandable texts 3) we need more information about the target groups (qualitative research)
<birgit_p> thank you Cordula
Concerning the contribution of V. Topac and V. Stoicu
<klaus> We have used text4all Terminology Interpreter (available at www.text4all.net/interpreter.jsp). It’s a tool that can recognize terminology (based on glossaries) that is not in the canonical form, using fuzzy matching. This tool adapts web pages by recognizing and labeling terminology. The definitions of the recognized terms are then being added into the adapted web page.
<klaus> The tool presented here, like many other tools addressing terminology do support transferability to other languages and domains, having direct dependencies on the glossaries and training data or corpora. However, tools that are rule based and care about the grammar of a language, are usually language dependent. Also, based on the nature, the scope of the text <informative (technology news), empowering people (medical recommendations) or others> and with [CUT]
<klaus>The tool evaluated in this test can present term definitions in several ways. The majority of the participants preferred having the definitions ...
<klaus>presented in the page by request (click or right click on the term) or as tooltip over the term. ...
Only few participants preferred inline definitions. So the user preferences do not fully match the recommendation from "Sufficient Techniques for 3.1.3 ... Unusual Words" in WCAG 2.0, where the recommendations for presenting definitions of terms are definition lists, inline or by link. We would suggest adding tooltips too.
Concerning the contribution of T. van der Gheest and Jana Becker
<Chris> Can MIA automatically operate on all forms? Or do you adapt form by form?
<Chris> It provides a different presentation, but not changing the complexity of the explaining texts? Or where do the texts come from?
<Jana_Becker> @Chris: One of the advantages of MIA is that this avatar can be used for every kind of form. It is an overlay tool, which can be individually be adjusted and this regarding text and speech and pointing. So it won’t make a difference on which form MIA operates. In contrast to “normal” avatars, MIA is a tool that can be used by every interested organization/ company, etc. when MIA will be introduced to the market. But of course MIA’s ins[CUT]
<Jana_Becker> be adjusted for the first time for a specific form.
<Chris> thanks Jana; I wait to see it coming on the market! It has a good potential as alternative presentation for many people.
Concerning the contribution of V. Vandeghinste
<clayton_lewis> re task support: i v ramakrishnan at stony brook u in usa has done some work on this, in the context of screen reader use
<Patrick> Vincent_Vandeghinste: I asked as in the example, the house pictograph is attached to a "home", which has a different connotation to me (maybe in Dutch, there is no differentiation), but to me, the connotation side of any concept has to be considered. Thank you for your input though.
<Vincent_Vandeghinste> Patrick: That's just me giving an inappropriate translation. In Dutch we make the distinction between 'thuis' which is 'home' and 'huis' which is 'house', but in the case of I am coming home, we say 'I am coming to house'
<Vincent_Vandeghinste> Patrick: But I agree. Nevertheless, the same holds, as is clear from the example, in the difference between natural languages
<Vincent_Vandeghinste> I am sorry people, but I have to go. You can email me for further discussion. Cheers.
Concerning the contribution of Timo Overmark
<jennyd> IDD? can somebody tell me what this is?
apetz>IDD = intellectual developmental disabilities
Concerning the contribution of Michael Schaten
<Michael_Schaten> for those who would like to grab a first impression of the actual prototype of my glossary service: www.knoffit.de (german version) or www.nl.knoffit.de (dutch version)
<Michael_Schaten> Input and comments are greatly appreciated
Concerning the used conferencing system
<mike> it would be nice if you could go for an better conference software
<Vincent_Vandeghinste> mike: I agree
<MatsL> Vincent: For this issue http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20120103/G153
Remarks on further steps and goodbye
<shawn> Please send additional short contributions, questions, and comments to the publicly-archived mailing list RDWG Comments, with subject starting "[E2R Symposium]" <public-wai-rd-comments@w3.org>
<Michael_Schaten> I am sorry, but I need to leave. Thanks to everyone for this great and informative symposium. See you next time!
<Patrick> Thank you very much everyone for your answers.
<apetz> Thank you all for attending and input / answers
<Ginny_Redish> Thank you to all the organizers.
<sharper> Thanks Everyone! Really Nice Session!
<Leealaura_Leskela> Thank you for this interesting session!
<Lisa_Caid> Thank you!
<Chris> Thanks to everybody and see you next time!
<Sami_Alli> Thank you for you all, bye!
<timo_overmark> Thank you!
<Annika_Nietzio> Thanks to the organisers and all participants.
<clayton_lewis> thanks to the organizers!
<jennyd> thanks to everyone, a really interesting symposium!
<Jana_Becker> Thanks to the organizers!
Messages for correction of captioning transcript
<Vincent_Vandeghinste> American measurement -> automatic measurement
<Vincent_Vandeghinste> such other based -> such avatar based
<Vincent_Vandeghinste> Resource languages. (audio breaking up). In English. -> less resources languages than English
<shawn> For captioning transcript: "There should be more than just a grammatical or sentence length analysis to really see what text,..." is Thea_van_der_Geest
<shawn> For captioning transcript: "As I was just about to dial the number, what I would like to say is that I agree with what Clayton said and Ginny said, that about this perspective. I'm not sure whether this gives any new light to the discussion. But we have a service in the center here that is..." is Leealaura_Leskelä speaking
<shawn> for transcript: "Well, as a content strategist and Web writer I'm not a standards person like a lot of people here.... " is Patrick_Lévesque
<shawn> For transcript: "Same question came up at the Dutch, we will call tech demonstration or Internal Revenue Service, and they decided to create like two..." is Thea_van_der_Geest
<shawn> For transcript: "I wanted to make the point that plain language works for everyone..." is Ginny_Redish
<shawn> For captioning transcript: "That is great. I wanted to support what Clayton had said about the difference between correlation and actual comprehension..." is Ginny Redish speaking