There are some format problems with the chatlog. Please correct them and reload this page. They are labeled on this page in a red box, like this message.
It may be helpful to
15:59:16 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/02/06-rdf-wg-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/02/06-rdf-wg-irc ←
15:59:26 <davidwood> Zakim, this will be RDF
David Wood: Zakim, this will be RDF ←
15:59:26 <Zakim> ok, davidwood, I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM already started
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, davidwood, I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM already started ←
15:59:34 <davidwood> Chair: David Wood
15:59:45 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
David Wood: Zakim, who is here? ←
15:59:46 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], GavinC, bhyland
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see [IPcaller], GavinC, bhyland ←
15:59:47 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, tbaker, Guus, gavinc, AndyS, TallTed, ivan, cygri, davidwood, gkellogg, trackbot, mischat, manu1, yvesr, manu, sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, tbaker, Guus, gavinc, AndyS, TallTed, ivan, cygri, davidwood, gkellogg, trackbot, mischat, manu1, yvesr, manu, sandro, ericP ←
15:59:54 <Zakim> +[OpenLink]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[OpenLink] ←
15:59:55 <tbaker> zakim, IPcaller is tbaker
Thomas Baker: zakim, IPcaller is tbaker ←
15:59:55 <davidwood> Zakim, bhyland is me
David Wood: Zakim, bhyland is me ←
15:59:55 <Zakim> +tbaker; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +tbaker; got it ←
15:59:55 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +davidwood; got it ←
16:00:12 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip ←
16:00:12 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made ←
16:00:12 <TallTed> TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF WG - http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/ - current agenda http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.02.06
Ted Thibodeau: TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF WG - http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/ - current agenda http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.02.06 ←
16:00:13 <Zakim> +Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan ←
16:00:14 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
16:00:21 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPCaller is me ←
16:00:21 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it ←
16:00:37 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
David Wood: Zakim, who is here? ←
16:00:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see tbaker, GavinC, davidwood, [OpenLink], AndyS, Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see tbaker, GavinC, davidwood, [OpenLink], AndyS, Ivan ←
16:00:38 <Zakim> On IRC I see gavinc, RRSAgent, Zakim, tbaker, Guus, AndyS, TallTed, ivan, cygri, davidwood, gkellogg, trackbot, mischat, manu1, yvesr, manu, sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see gavinc, RRSAgent, Zakim, tbaker, Guus, AndyS, TallTed, ivan, cygri, davidwood, gkellogg, trackbot, mischat, manu1, yvesr, manu, sandro, ericP ←
16:01:11 <TallTed> Zakim, [OpenLink] is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, [OpenLink] is temporarily me ←
16:01:11 <Zakim> +TallTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +TallTed; got it ←
16:01:32 <Zakim> +??P11
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P11 ←
16:01:46 <gkellogg> zakim, I am ??P11
Gregg Kellogg: zakim, I am ??P11 ←
16:01:46 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +gkellogg; got it ←
16:01:47 <Zakim> +Guus
Zakim IRC Bot: +Guus ←
16:02:07 <Guus> zakim, mute me
Guus Schreiber: zakim, mute me ←
16:02:08 <Zakim> Guus should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Guus should now be muted ←
16:02:13 <tbaker> Scribe: tbaker
(Scribe set to Thomas Baker)
16:02:17 <tbaker> scribenick: tbaker
16:02:29 <Zakim> + +1.603.438.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.603.438.aaaa ←
16:02:46 <Zakim> +Souri
Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri ←
16:02:49 <tbaker> Dave: Out of charter, but will discuss
Scribe problem: the name 'Dave' does not match any of the 48 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jean-François Baget Thomas Baker Adrien BASSE Scott Bauer Aidan Boran Dan Brickley Matteo Brunati Gaoussou CAMARA Gavin Carothers Pierre-Antoine Champin Kiu Ching Chieh Olivier Corby Richard Cyganiak Francois Daoust Souripriya Das Lee Feigenbaum Fabien Gandon Charles Greer Steve Harris Sandro Hawke Patrick Hayes Ivan Herman Kingsley Idehen Gregg Kellogg Markus Lanthaler Arnaud Le Hors Dickson Lukose Ivan Mikhailov Peter Patel-Schneider Eric Prud'hommeaux Yves Raimond Nathan Rixham Guus Schreiber Andy Seaborne Manu Sporny Thomas Steiner Mouhamadou THIAM Ted Thibodeau Thomas Visel William Waites Jan Wielemaker David Wood Zhe Wu Mohamed ZERGAOUI Antoine Zimmermann Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown Dave: Out of charter, but will discuss ←
16:02:52 <tbaker> topic: Admin
16:02:55 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 30 January telecon: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2013-01-30
David Wood: PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 30 January telecon: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2013-01-30 ←
16:03:09 <Zakim> +??P26
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P26 ←
16:03:13 <Zakim> +Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro ←
16:03:16 <markus> zakim, ??P26 is me
Markus Lanthaler: zakim, ??P26 is me ←
16:03:16 <Zakim> +markus; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +markus; got it ←
16:03:18 <Zakim> +??P32
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P32 ←
16:03:20 <Zakim> +Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud ←
16:03:21 <tbaker> RESOLVED to accept the minutes of the 30 January telecon: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2013-01-30
RESOLVED to accept the minutes of the 30 January telecon: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2013-01-30 ←
16:03:25 <TallTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
16:03:30 <pchampin> zakim, ??P32 is me
Pierre-Antoine Champin: zakim, ??P32 is me ←
16:03:31 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +pchampin; got it ←
16:03:35 <tbaker> Topic: Review of action items
16:03:39 <Zakim> +cygri
Zakim IRC Bot: +cygri ←
16:03:45 <Arnaud> zakim, mute me
Arnaud Le Hors: zakim, mute me ←
16:03:46 <Zakim> Arnaud should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Arnaud should now be muted ←
16:04:13 <tbaker> davidwood: Moving on...
David Wood: Moving on... ←
16:04:14 <gavinc> hey! yay I have no actions
Gavin Carothers: hey! yay I have no actions ←
16:04:21 <tbaker> Topic: Extension Request
16:04:28 <tbaker> davidwood: extension request?
David Wood: extension request? ←
16:04:35 <tbaker> ivan: no - sent to Thomas?
Ivan Herman: no - sent to Thomas? ←
16:04:42 <Zakim> +??P19
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P19 ←
16:04:44 <manu> zakim, I am ??P19
Manu Sporny: zakim, I am ??P19 ←
16:04:45 <Zakim> +manu; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +manu; got it ←
16:04:58 <tbaker> ... Whatever we put together has to be sent to Thomas - suggest we do that now.
... Whatever we put together has to be sent to Thomas - suggest we do that now. ←
16:05:11 <tbaker> ... Has to be in their hands a few days before meeting.
... Has to be in their hands a few days before meeting. ←
16:05:12 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[GVoice] ←
16:05:13 <Zakim> +Tony
Zakim IRC Bot: +Tony ←
16:05:17 <ericP> Zakim, [GVoice] is me
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, [GVoice] is me ←
16:05:17 <Zakim> +ericP; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +ericP; got it ←
16:05:20 <tbaker> davidwood: will sent now
David Wood: will sent now ←
16:05:28 <ScottB> Zakim, Tony is temporarily me
Scott Bauer: Zakim, Tony is temporarily me ←
16:05:28 <Zakim> +ScottB; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +ScottB; got it ←
16:05:29 <tbaker> ivan: will be on agenda next Wednesday.
Ivan Herman: will be on agenda next Wednesday. ←
16:06:38 <tbaker> ... only problem: I will not be able to join W3M meeting next week - maybe Sandro?
... only problem: I will not be able to join W3M meeting next week - maybe Sandro? ←
16:07:05 <zwu2> thanks Thomas for taking over scribe!
Zhe Wu: thanks Thomas for taking over scribe! ←
16:07:07 <tbaker> Sandro: Might be able to make call (on vacation).
Sandro Hawke: Might be able to make call (on vacation). ←
16:07:28 <tbaker> Ivan: As chair you could attend if you discuss with Thomas.
Ivan Herman: As chair you could attend if you discuss with Thomas. ←
16:07:46 <tbaker> Davidwood: Guus?
David Wood: Guus? ←
16:07:47 <Guus> zakim, unmute me
Guus Schreiber: zakim, unmute me ←
16:07:47 <Zakim> Guus should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Guus should no longer be muted ←
16:08:01 <ericP> gavinc, all, we have another Turtle issue
Eric Prud'hommeaux: gavinc, all, we have another Turtle issue ←
16:08:42 <ericP> -> http://www.w3.org/mid/E61A2BEE-ABB5-4273-959E-AC8E913D0E6B@ugent.be Are documents with uppercase language tags valid Turtle?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: -> http://www.w3.org/mid/E61A2BEE-ABB5-4273-959E-AC8E913D0E6B@ugent.be Are documents with uppercase language tags valid Turtle? ←
16:09:02 <ericP> i wonder if this is worth a mad scramble before we go to CR
Eric Prud'hommeaux: i wonder if this is worth a mad scramble before we go to CR ←
16:09:12 <ericP> (so we don't get sent back to LC)
Eric Prud'hommeaux: (so we don't get sent back to LC) ←
16:09:15 <tbaker> Davidwood or Guus could attend - writing to Thomas.
Davidwood or Guus could attend - writing to Thomas. ←
16:09:16 <gavinc> That's NOT new.
Gavin Carothers: That's NOT new. ←
16:09:45 <ericP> ok, so is it a listed issue?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ok, so is it a listed issue? ←
16:09:59 <tbaker> @zwu2 should I just continue to scribe today? Willing to do.
@zwu2 should I just continue to scribe today? Willing to do. ←
16:10:06 <gavinc> We talked about it before... let me see if there's an issue that covers it.
Gavin Carothers: We talked about it before... let me see if there's an issue that covers it. ←
16:10:15 <gavinc> There were comments about it that we responded to already
Gavin Carothers: There were comments about it that we responded to already ←
16:10:20 <tbaker> Topic: Concepts
16:10:47 <zwu2> tbaker, please do. I will switch with you next time you scribe
Zhe Wu: tbaker, please do. I will switch with you next time you scribe ←
16:10:50 <davidwood> ISSUE-105?
16:10:50 <trackbot> ISSUE-105 -- Graphs, datasets, authoritative representations, and content negotiation -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-105 -- Graphs, datasets, authoritative representations, and content negotiation -- open ←
16:10:50 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/105
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/105 ←
16:11:03 <davidwood> Topic: Concepts
16:11:11 <tbaker> cygri: Issue 105 re: relationships of graphs and datasets - web arch - content negotiation.
Richard Cyganiak: ISSUE-105 re: relationships of graphs and datasets - web arch - content negotiation. ←
16:11:42 <tbaker> ... X same as Trig file published with default graph?
... X same as Trig file published with default graph? ←
16:11:54 <tbaker> davidwood: Cross-over with issue 107 re: identity of graph.
David Wood: Cross-over with ISSUE-107 re: identity of graph. ←
16:12:17 <tbaker> cygri: haven't followed blank nodes discussion - unsure.
Richard Cyganiak: haven't followed blank nodes discussion - unsure. ←
16:12:44 <tbaker> davidwood: late in process to be introducing blank nodes as graph names
David Wood: late in process to be introducing blank nodes as graph names ←
16:13:01 <ericP> ISSUE-_:bnode ?
Scribe problem: the name 'ISSUE-_' does not match any of the 48 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jean-François Baget Thomas Baker Adrien BASSE Scott Bauer Aidan Boran Dan Brickley Matteo Brunati Gaoussou CAMARA Gavin Carothers Pierre-Antoine Champin Kiu Ching Chieh Olivier Corby Richard Cyganiak Francois Daoust Souripriya Das Lee Feigenbaum Fabien Gandon Charles Greer Steve Harris Sandro Hawke Patrick Hayes Ivan Herman Kingsley Idehen Gregg Kellogg Markus Lanthaler Arnaud Le Hors Dickson Lukose Ivan Mikhailov Peter Patel-Schneider Eric Prud'hommeaux Yves Raimond Nathan Rixham Guus Schreiber Andy Seaborne Manu Sporny Thomas Steiner Mouhamadou THIAM Ted Thibodeau Thomas Visel William Waites Jan Wielemaker David Wood Zhe Wu Mohamed ZERGAOUI Antoine Zimmermann Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ISSUE-_: bnode ? [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ] ←
16:13:09 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
David Wood: Zakim, who is here? ←
16:13:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see tbaker, GavinC, davidwood, TallTed, AndyS, Ivan, gkellogg, Guus, +1.603.438.aaaa, Souri, markus, Sandro, Arnaud (muted), pchampin, cygri, manu, ericP, ScottB
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see tbaker, GavinC, davidwood, TallTed, AndyS, Ivan, gkellogg, Guus, +1.603.438.aaaa, Souri, markus, Sandro, Arnaud (muted), pchampin, cygri, manu, ericP, ScottB ←
16:13:12 <tbaker> cygri: that issue is not related to 105 or 107, but new - reluctant to merge into an existing issue.
Richard Cyganiak: that issue is not related to 105 or 107, but new - reluctant to merge into an existing issue. ←
16:13:12 <Zakim> On IRC I see zwu2, ScottB, Souri, pchampin, markus, Arnaud, gavinc, RRSAgent, Zakim, tbaker, Guus, AndyS, TallTed, ivan, cygri, davidwood, gkellogg, trackbot, mischat, manu1,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see zwu2, ScottB, Souri, pchampin, markus, Arnaud, gavinc, RRSAgent, Zakim, tbaker, Guus, AndyS, TallTed, ivan, cygri, davidwood, gkellogg, trackbot, mischat, manu1, ←
16:13:12 <Zakim> ... yvesr, manu, sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: ... yvesr, manu, sandro, ericP ←
16:13:22 <zwu2> zakim, +1.603.438.aaaa is me
Zhe Wu: zakim, +1.603.438.aaaa is me ←
16:13:22 <Zakim> +zwu2; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2; got it ←
16:13:39 <Guus> zakim, mute me
Guus Schreiber: zakim, mute me ←
16:13:39 <Zakim> Guus should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Guus should now be muted ←
16:13:46 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
16:13:57 <manu> q+ to try to show a way forward.
Manu Sporny: q+ to try to show a way forward. ←
16:14:01 <davidwood> ack ivan
David Wood: ack ivan ←
16:14:03 <tbaker> davidwood: as I read it, if Manu's position becomes WG's position, would change our relation to 105 and 107, but reluctant to make such a radical change in our conception of datasets and graphs in Feb 2013
David Wood: as I read it, if Manu's position becomes WG's position, would change our relation to 105 and 107, but reluctant to make such a radical change in our conception of datasets and graphs in Feb 2013 ←
16:14:47 <gavinc> A TriG file served as a Turtle file won't parse as Turtle.
Gavin Carothers: A TriG file served as a Turtle file won't parse as Turtle. ←
16:14:48 <tbaker> ivan: do not think these two things are related. Issue initiated by JSON-LD - what happens if I have a Trig file with only default graph, served as Turtle
Ivan Herman: do not think these two things are related. Issue initiated by JSON-LD - what happens if I have a Trig file with only default graph, served as Turtle ←
16:14:50 <davidwood> ack manu
David Wood: ack manu ←
16:14:50 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to try to show a way forward.
Zakim IRC Bot: manu, you wanted to try to show a way forward. ←
16:15:17 <tbaker> Manu: did not want to destabilize group with B-Node identifiers issue
Manu Sporny: did not want to destabilize group with B-Node identifiers issue ←
16:15:33 <tbaker> Ivan: cygri says 105 has nothing to do with that, and I agree
Ivan Herman: cygri says 105 has nothing to do with that, and I agree ←
16:15:48 <tbaker> ???: Issue is which graph do you use.
Gregg Kellogg: Issue is which graph do you use. ←
16:16:19 <tbaker> cygri: Say nothing? Apples and oranges?
Richard Cyganiak: Say nothing? Apples and oranges? ←
16:16:43 <gkellogg> s/???/gkellogg/
16:16:45 <tbaker> davidwood: If we say nothing, door is open for all groups to solve in different ways.
David Wood: If we say nothing, door is open for all groups to solve in different ways. ←
16:17:07 <tbaker> cygri: so we should say something, not necessarily strong and normative. Concepts is logical place to look for guidance.
Richard Cyganiak: so we should say something, not necessarily strong and normative. Concepts is logical place to look for guidance. ←
16:17:23 <manu> Yes, that's the risk I'm trying to outline... JSON-LD is having to deal with it now, RDFa will in the future... so will NQuads (due to RDF Dataset Normalization Algorithm spec)
Manu Sporny: Yes, that's the risk I'm trying to outline... JSON-LD is having to deal with it now, RDFa will in the future... so will NQuads (due to RDF Dataset Normalization Algorithm spec) ←
16:17:30 <tbaker> ... If Concepts says something, pressure for future WGs to stay coherent.
... If Concepts says something, pressure for future WGs to stay coherent. ←
16:17:43 <tbaker> davidwood: Agree Concepts is logical place.
David Wood: Agree Concepts is logical place. ←
16:18:22 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
16:18:24 <tbaker> cygri: Impression that we have not heard really sound technical arguments for possible choices. Preferences, but not discussion of technical consequences.
Richard Cyganiak: Impression that we have not heard really sound technical arguments for possible choices. Preferences, but not discussion of technical consequences. ←
16:18:25 <Zakim> +Sandro.a
Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro.a ←
16:18:30 <Zakim> -Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro ←
16:18:42 <Guus> zakim, [IPcaller] is GuusS
Guus Schreiber: zakim, [IPcaller] is GuusS ←
16:18:42 <AndyS> Sorry
Andy Seaborne: Sorry ←
16:18:42 <Zakim> +GuusS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +GuusS; got it ←
16:18:50 <Zakim> +AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ ←
16:18:52 <manu> We say the following in the JSON-LD specification: Even though JSON-LD serializes RDF datasets, it can also be used as a RDF graph source. In that case, a consumer must only use the default graph and ignore all named graphs. This allows servers to expose data in, e.g., both Turtle and JSON-LD using content negotiation.
Manu Sporny: We say the following in the JSON-LD specification: Even though JSON-LD serializes RDF datasets, it can also be used as a RDF graph source. In that case, a consumer must only use the default graph and ignore all named graphs. This allows servers to expose data in, e.g., both Turtle and JSON-LD using content negotiation. ←
16:18:56 <AndyS> was workign a moment a got -- wil redial
Andy Seaborne: was workign a moment a got -- wil redial ←
16:19:12 <Zakim> -AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS ←
16:19:31 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
16:19:32 <sandro> +1 (manu's quoted json-ld text)
Sandro Hawke: +1 (manu's quoted json-ld text) ←
16:19:41 <tbaker> cygri: Re: manu's text in irc: agree this is good as strawman proposal for what to say in Concepts.
Richard Cyganiak: Re: manu's text in irc: agree this is good as strawman proposal for what to say in Concepts. ←
16:19:47 <manu> We also have this (which is sorta redundant): NOTE: Publishers supporting both dataset and graph syntaxes have to ensure that the primary data is stored in the default graph to enable consumers that do not support datasets to process the information.
Manu Sporny: We also have this (which is sorta redundant): NOTE: Publishers supporting both dataset and graph syntaxes have to ensure that the primary data is stored in the default graph to enable consumers that do not support datasets to process the information. ←
16:19:50 <davidwood> ack ivan
David Wood: ack ivan ←
16:20:04 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
16:20:05 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPCaller is me ←
16:20:05 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it ←
16:20:18 <manu> zakim, Mute AndyS
Manu Sporny: zakim, Mute AndyS ←
16:20:18 <Zakim> AndyS should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS should now be muted ←
16:20:30 <AndyS> zakim, unmute me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, unmute me ←
16:20:30 <Zakim> AndyS should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS should no longer be muted ←
16:20:51 <Zakim> -AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS ←
16:20:59 <tbaker> Ivan: We had some problems. Andy? But could perhaps put in not as a normative text - various serializations could follow this advice.
Ivan Herman: We had some problems. Andy? But could perhaps put in not as a normative text - various serializations could follow this advice. ←
16:21:01 <Zakim> -Guus
Zakim IRC Bot: -Guus ←
16:21:17 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
16:21:20 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPCaller is me ←
16:21:20 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it ←
16:21:22 <Zakim> -GuusS
Zakim IRC Bot: -GuusS ←
16:21:42 <tbaker> davidwood: JSON-LD tries to be both graph and data format - [scribe needs help]
David Wood: JSON-LD tries to be both graph and data format - [scribe needs help] ←
16:22:24 <Zakim> +Guus
Zakim IRC Bot: +Guus ←
16:22:31 <manu> ivan: JSON-LD is both a graph and dataset format, this problem will be an issue in RDFa in the future if it supports named graphs.
Ivan Herman: JSON-LD is both a graph and dataset format, this problem will be an issue in RDFa in the future if it supports named graphs. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
16:22:53 <tbaker> AndyS: Haven't heard anyone address concerns re: provenance
Andy Seaborne: Haven't heard anyone address concerns re: provenance ←
16:23:09 <tbaker> davidwood: Haven't heard what concern is, only that there is one.
David Wood: Haven't heard what concern is, only that there is one. ←
16:23:11 <manu> ivan: Perhaps we can put the JSON-LD text in as non-normative text into the RDF Concepts document
Ivan Herman: Perhaps we can put the JSON-LD text in as non-normative text into the RDF Concepts document [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
16:23:28 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
16:24:08 <tbaker> AndyS: Concern of having a format that can confuse where data has come from - then claiming that data to be true.
Andy Seaborne: Concern of having a format that can confuse where data has come from - then claiming that data to be true. ←
16:24:16 <tbaker> davidwood: same issue in Turtle?
David Wood: same issue in Turtle? ←
16:24:53 <markus> isn't that exactly the reason why we choose the default graph?
Markus Lanthaler: isn't that exactly the reason why we choose the default graph? ←
16:24:54 <tbaker> AndyS: No because then you have a graph. Can talk about Provenance. If you pick one and treat as graph, you have changed the mechanism of keeping them apart.
Andy Seaborne: No because then you have a graph. Can talk about Provenance. If you pick one and treat as graph, you have changed the mechanism of keeping them apart. ←
16:25:12 <Guus> zakim, mute me
Guus Schreiber: zakim, mute me ←
16:25:12 <Zakim> Guus should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Guus should now be muted ←
16:25:34 <tbaker> cygri: but we take the default graph - ignore named graph and take default.
Richard Cyganiak: but we take the default graph - ignore named graph and take default. ←
16:25:46 <manu> -1 to merge all the graphs into one.
Manu Sporny: -1 to merge all the graphs into one. ←
16:25:52 <manu> -1 to take a specific named graph.
Manu Sporny: -1 to take a specific named graph. ←
16:26:03 <tbaker> AndyS: I'm happy taking default, merging graphs, etc - not sure where Steve stands.
Andy Seaborne: I'm happy taking default, merging graphs, etc - not sure where Steve stands. ←
16:26:16 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-mobile
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, please dial ericP-mobile ←
16:26:16 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ericP; the call is being made ←
16:26:18 <Zakim> -ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP ←
16:26:18 <Zakim> +EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP ←
16:26:49 <Arnaud> merging all the graphs would seem really wrong
Arnaud Le Hors: merging all the graphs would seem really wrong ←
16:27:10 <sandro> davidwood, I hear consensus of the people here. can steve come next week to make his case?
Sandro Hawke: davidwood, I hear consensus of the people here. can steve come next week to make his case? ←
16:27:44 <tbaker> cygri: I don't think anyone is arguing for merging. Name as location of trig document - less preferable than taking default graph - but not unreasonable. We should probably get Steve to clarify his concerns about default graph approach.
Richard Cyganiak: I don't think anyone is arguing for merging. Name as location of trig document - less preferable than taking default graph - but not unreasonable. We should probably get Steve to clarify his concerns about default graph approach. ←
16:27:44 <davidwood> Sandro, can you send Steve a mail?
David Wood: Sandro, can you send Steve a mail? ←
16:28:28 <tbaker> AndyS: Potential problems. We do not have definition of dataset where you are naming a graph.
Andy Seaborne: Potential problems. We do not have definition of dataset where you are naming a graph. ←
16:28:42 <sandro> davidwood, sure, but I'd rather we have a resolution pending steve objecting, so he has something specific to react to.
Sandro Hawke: davidwood, sure, but I'd rather we have a resolution pending steve objecting, so he has something specific to react to. ←
16:28:52 <davidwood> sandro, sure
David Wood: sandro, sure ←
16:29:11 <tbaker> cygri: Prefer to use default graph. In implementations, may not know what doc is loaded from, so problem of picking particular graph and may not know which one to pick.
Richard Cyganiak: Prefer to use default graph. In implementations, may not know what doc is loaded from, so problem of picking particular graph and may not know which one to pick. ←
16:29:20 <ivan> q?
Ivan Herman: q? ←
16:29:30 <davidwood> ack ivan
David Wood: ack ivan ←
16:29:31 <tbaker> AndyS: At back-end, you may not know what [].
Andy Seaborne: At back-end, you may not know what []. ←
16:29:57 <tbaker> Ivan: Afraid of rat hole. In past, we decided that Trig and turtle are radically different.
Ivan Herman: Afraid of rat hole. In past, we decided that Trig and turtle are radically different. ←
16:30:05 <AndyS> AndyS: At back-end, you may not know what host name was used to GET the data.
Andy Seaborne: At back-end, you may not know what host name was used to GET the data. [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
16:30:06 <tbaker> ... THerefore we should keep them different.
... THerefore we should keep them different. ←
16:30:40 <manu> proposed proposal: Add a non-normative statement RDF Concepts explaining that if a RDF serialization format supports expressing both datasets and graphs, that a consumer should use the default graph if it is expecting a graph. Publishers should publish information intended for graph-only clients in the default graph.
Manu Sporny: proposed proposal: Add a non-normative statement RDF Concepts explaining that if a RDF serialization format supports expressing both datasets and graphs, that a consumer should use the default graph if it is expecting a graph. Publishers should publish information intended for graph-only clients in the default graph. ←
16:31:28 <davidwood> We *can* resolve today, but should be careful to advise the rest of the WG and be responsive to objections.
David Wood: We *can* resolve today, but should be careful to advise the rest of the WG and be responsive to objections. ←
16:31:30 <tbaker> ... JSON-LD is different. Also RDFa. Only one JSON-LD that can express single graph or dataset. Concept draft shoudl simply say that if the syntax supports this distiinction, should do.
... JSON-LD is different. Also RDFa. Only one JSON-LD that can express single graph or dataset. Concept draft shoudl simply say that if the syntax supports this distiinction, should do. ←
16:31:47 <tbaker> ... This was raised because of JSON-LD.
... This was raised because of JSON-LD. ←
16:31:50 <davidwood> Many WGs continue work after a charter expiration.
David Wood: Many WGs continue work after a charter expiration. ←
16:32:57 <tbaker> cygri: would be an issue anywhere. Strongest with JSON-LD. Technically not correct that JSON-LD can serialize graph or dataset. Cannot distinguish. No way to indicate you are just serializing a graph. Same with Trig.
Richard Cyganiak: would be an issue anywhere. Strongest with JSON-LD. Technically not correct that JSON-LD can serialize graph or dataset. Cannot distinguish. No way to indicate you are just serializing a graph. Same with Trig. ←
16:33:10 <manu> q+ to state that you can specify a graph-only, kinda.
Manu Sporny: q+ to state that you can specify a graph-only, kinda. ←
16:33:24 <tbaker> Ivan: Trig and Turtle have different media types.
Ivan Herman: Trig and Turtle have different media types. ←
16:33:39 <Zakim> -AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ ←
16:33:54 <tbaker> ... JSON-LD does not have the equivalent of turtle.
... JSON-LD does not have the equivalent of turtle. ←
16:34:00 <manu> q-
Manu Sporny: q- ←
16:34:09 <tbaker> Ivan: No way in JSON-LD to say "I am only a graph, not a dataset"
Ivan Herman: No way in JSON-LD to say "I am only a graph, not a dataset" ←
16:34:12 <markus> I think the question is whether a dataset can be interpreted as graph or not... the serialization doesn't really matter
Markus Lanthaler: I think the question is whether a dataset can be interpreted as graph or not... the serialization doesn't really matter ←
16:34:16 <Zakim> +AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ ←
16:34:32 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
16:34:36 <tbaker> ... Trig is only a dataset. Trig has a little brother: Turtle. The big difference.
... Trig is only a dataset. Trig has a little brother: Turtle. The big difference. ←
16:34:38 <sandro> q+ to move the previous question
Sandro Hawke: q+ to move the previous question ←
16:34:59 <tbaker> cygri: Are you saying that having a Trig document that only has default graph is illegal?
Richard Cyganiak: Are you saying that having a Trig document that only has default graph is illegal? ←
16:35:07 <markus> q+
Markus Lanthaler: q+ ←
16:35:13 <tbaker> Ivan: It's legal: dataset consisting of one default graph.
Ivan Herman: It's legal: dataset consisting of one default graph. ←
16:35:42 <davidwood> ack sandro
David Wood: ack sandro ←
16:35:42 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to move the previous question
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to move the previous question ←
16:35:43 <tbaker> cygri: Same in JSON-LD.
Richard Cyganiak: Same in JSON-LD. ←
16:36:22 <tbaker> Sandro: I hear consensus - would like to resolve for now.
Sandro Hawke: I hear consensus - would like to resolve for now. ←
16:36:24 <AndyS> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
16:36:30 <davidwood> ack markus
David Wood: ack markus ←
16:36:33 <tbaker> ... Manu's text.
... Manu's text. ←
16:37:04 <tbaker> Markus: Not about serialzn format, but can you can treat as graph.
Markus Lanthaler: Not about serialzn format, but can you can treat as graph. ←
16:37:19 <davidwood> ack AndyS
David Wood: ack AndyS ←
16:37:28 <tbaker> davidwood: Using out-of-band info to determine process.
David Wood: Using out-of-band info to determine provenance. ←
16:37:41 <davidwood> s/process/provenance/
16:37:42 <tbaker> s/process/provenance/
16:38:17 <tbaker> AndyS: "JSON-LD is a dataset format"?
Andy Seaborne: "JSON-LD is a dataset format"? ←
16:38:35 <tbaker> Sandro: It's ssuppoed to be an RDF serialization.
Sandro Hawke: It's ssuppoed to be an RDF serialization. ←
16:38:48 <pchampin> q+
16:38:56 <tbaker> cygri: Agree with Andy - charter talks about named graphs in JSON format - not out of scope.
Richard Cyganiak: Agree with Andy - charter talks about named graphs in JSON format - not out of scope. ←
16:39:24 <tbaker> AndyS: Problem with using JSON-LD as primary example.
Andy Seaborne: Problem with using JSON-LD as primary example. ←
16:39:34 <tbaker> Sandro: Confident we can resolve this.
Sandro Hawke: Confident we can resolve this. ←
16:39:36 <gavinc> Strawpoll at least?
Gavin Carothers: Strawpoll at least? ←
16:39:43 <davidwood> ack pchampin
David Wood: ack pchampin ←
16:40:19 <sandro> yes, please strawpoll.
Sandro Hawke: yes, please strawpoll. ←
16:40:31 <davidwood> ok
David Wood: ok ←
16:40:35 <cygri> STRAWPOLL: Add a non-normative statement RDF Concepts explaining that if a RDF serialization format supports expressing both datasets and graphs, that a consumer should use the default graph if it is expecting a graph.
STRAWPOLL: Add a non-normative statement RDF Concepts explaining that if a RDF serialization format supports expressing both datasets and graphs, that a consumer should use the default graph if it is expecting a graph. ←
16:40:43 <AndyS> AndyS: Prefer to document the two concrete alternatives -- ask for graph, its a dataset format => (1) default graph or (2) conneg error.
Andy Seaborne: Prefer to document the two concrete alternatives -- ask for graph, its a dataset format => (1) default graph or (2) conneg error. [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
16:40:48 <tbaker> Antoine: Elephant in room. Special case of JSON-LD - we expect to attract people who would not use Turtle. [Scribe missed - audio]
pchampin Elephant in room. Special case of JSON-LD - we expect to attract people who would not use Turtle. [Scribe missed - audio] ←
16:40:49 <manu> +1
Manu Sporny: +1 ←
16:40:51 <markus> +1
Markus Lanthaler: +1 ←
16:40:59 <AZ> s/Antoine:/pchampin/
16:41:01 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
16:41:04 <pchampin> s/Antoine:/Pierre-Antoine:/
16:41:04 <tbaker> +1
+1 ←
16:41:06 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
16:41:10 <AndyS> 0
Andy Seaborne: 0 ←
16:41:10 <gkellogg> +1
Gregg Kellogg: +1 ←
16:41:17 <zwu2> +1
16:41:19 <cygri> AndyS, I don't know what a "conneg error" is
Richard Cyganiak: AndyS, I don't know what a "conneg error" is ←
16:41:22 <AZ> 0
16:41:23 <gavinc> 0
Gavin Carothers: 0 ←
16:41:23 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
16:41:24 <pchampin> +1
16:41:24 <markus> (would prefer a normative statement though)
Markus Lanthaler: (would prefer a normative statement though) ←
16:41:29 <ericP> +1
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 ←
16:41:31 <Souri> +1
Souripriya Das: +1 ←
16:41:37 <TallTed> +1 (minor reword for clarity coming in a moment)
Ted Thibodeau: +1 (minor reword for clarity coming in a moment) ←
16:41:43 <Arnaud> 0
Arnaud Le Hors: 0 ←
16:41:44 <sandro> (would also strongly prefer normative stmt)
Sandro Hawke: (would also strongly prefer normative stmt) ←
16:41:53 <Guus> +1
Guus Schreiber: +1 ←
16:42:02 <gavinc> Yes.
Gavin Carothers: Yes. ←
16:42:09 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
16:42:15 <AndyS> cygri - 406 Not Acceptable
Andy Seaborne: cygri - 406 Not Acceptable ←
16:42:16 <tbaker> davidwood: Would anyone change their position if the proposal were for a normative statement?
David Wood: Would anyone change their position if the proposal were for a normative statement? ←
16:42:19 <ericP> there are a myriad of ways where i've coded an equivalence between the trig default graph and a turtle graph
Eric Prud'hommeaux: there are a myriad of ways where i've coded an equivalence between the trig default graph and a turtle graph ←
16:42:30 <gavinc> +q -1 for lack of implementation experience
Gavin Carothers: +q -1 for lack of implementation experience ←
16:42:36 <AndyS> .... "content characteristics not acceptable according to the accept headers sent in the request. "
Andy Seaborne: .... "content characteristics not acceptable according to the accept headers sent in the request. " ←
16:42:37 <gavinc> -q -1
Gavin Carothers: -q -1 ←
16:42:58 <ericP> e.g. -d foo.ttl and -d { foo.ttl's contents }.trig are the same
Eric Prud'hommeaux: e.g. -d foo.ttl and -d { foo.ttl's contents }.trig are the same ←
16:43:03 <sandro> (I can certainly live without normative statement. informative is good enough, indeed.)
Sandro Hawke: (I can certainly live without normative statement. informative is good enough, indeed.) ←
16:43:07 <davidwood> ack ivan
David Wood: ack ivan ←
16:43:09 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
16:43:11 <tbaker> cygri: Concerns. More clarity required for normative. We don't want to get to point of explaining what this means in terms of semantics. Need to reflect in semantics? Informative is good enough if we can avoid that discussion.
Richard Cyganiak: Concerns. More clarity required for normative. We don't want to get to point of explaining what this means in terms of semantics. Need to reflect in semantics? Informative is good enough if we can avoid that discussion. ←
16:43:43 <tbaker> Davidwood: If Steve wants to object, he can.
David Wood: If Steve wants to object, he can. ←
16:44:24 <tbaker> Gavin: would change vote to -1 if normative.
Gavin Carothers: would change vote to -1 if normative. ←
16:44:27 <TallTed> "Add a non-normative statement RDF Concepts explaining that if a consumer requesting/expecting a graph receives an RDF serialization format which may express both datasets and graphs, the default graph of that serialization should be treated as the graph response."
Ted Thibodeau: "Add a non-normative statement RDF Concepts explaining that if a consumer requesting/expecting a graph receives an RDF serialization format which may express both datasets and graphs, the default graph of that serialization should be treated as the graph response." ←
16:45:34 <tbaker> Davidwood: I propose to use wording of straw poll in proposal.
David Wood: I propose to use wording of straw poll in proposal. ←
16:45:49 <sandro> PROPOSED: Add a non-normative statement RDF Concepts explaining that if a RDF serialization format supports expressing both datasets and graphs, that a consumer should use the default graph if it is expecting a graph. (Actual wording to be handled by editor)
PROPOSED: Add a non-normative statement RDF Concepts explaining that if a RDF serialization format supports expressing both datasets and graphs, that a consumer should use the default graph if it is expecting a graph. (Actual wording to be handled by editor) ←
16:45:53 <gkellogg> +1
Gregg Kellogg: +1 ←
16:45:55 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
16:45:56 <cygri> +1
Richard Cyganiak: +1 ←
16:46:01 <zwu2> +1
16:46:02 <tbaker> ... Vote?
... Vote? ←
16:46:02 <TallTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
16:46:06 <markus> +1
Markus Lanthaler: +1 ←
16:46:06 <manu> +1
Manu Sporny: +1 ←
16:46:07 <tbaker> +1
+1 ←
16:46:09 <gavinc> 0
Gavin Carothers: 0 ←
16:46:10 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
16:46:12 <Arnaud> 0
Arnaud Le Hors: 0 ←
16:46:13 <Souri> +1
Souripriya Das: +1 ←
16:46:13 <sandro> (Note that Steve, etc, might object and re-open this, in the coming days)
Sandro Hawke: (Note that Steve, etc, might object and re-open this, in the coming days) ←
16:46:14 <pchampin> +1
16:46:17 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
16:46:19 <Guus> +1
Guus Schreiber: +1 ←
16:46:20 <AndyS> 0
Andy Seaborne: 0 ←
16:46:47 <tbaker> Davidwood: Andy, how do you design software to deduce this?
David Wood: Andy, how do you design software to deduce this? ←
16:46:48 <Souri> *to* RDF Concepts
Souripriya Das: *to* RDF Concepts ←
16:46:55 <AZ> 0
16:47:11 <Zakim> -EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: -EricP ←
16:47:13 <Zakim> +EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP ←
16:47:13 <sandro> RESOLVED: Add a non-normative statement to RDF Concepts explaining that if a RDF serialization format supports expressing both datasets and graphs, that a consumer should use the default graph if it is expecting a graph. (Actual wording to be handled by editor)
RESOLVED: Add a non-normative statement to RDF Concepts explaining that if a RDF serialization format supports expressing both datasets and graphs, that a consumer should use the default graph if it is expecting a graph. (Actual wording to be handled by editor) ←
16:47:17 <tbaker> AndyS: [Something about] not hard wired.
Andy Seaborne: [Something about] not hard wired. ←
16:47:22 <sandro> closes issue-105
Sandro Hawke: closes ISSUE-105 ←
16:47:48 <gavinc> ISSUE-107?
16:47:48 <trackbot> ISSUE-107 -- Revised definition of blank nodes -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-107 -- Revised definition of blank nodes -- open ←
16:47:48 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/107
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/107 ←
16:47:50 <ivan> issue-107?
16:47:50 <trackbot> ISSUE-107 -- Revised definition of blank nodes -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-107 -- Revised definition of blank nodes -- open ←
16:47:50 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/107
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/107 ←
16:47:56 <tbaker> Davidwood: when minutes are posted, will point [Steve] to it.
David Wood: when minutes are posted, will point [Steve] to it. ←
16:48:31 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
Sandro Hawke: RRSAgent, pointer? ←
16:48:31 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2013/02/06-rdf-wg-irc#T16-48-31
RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2013/02/06-rdf-wg-irc#T16-48-31 ←
16:49:22 <tbaker> cygri: Re: 107, discussion on list. Would be good to have Antoine explain concern. Issue of clarity of definitions.
Richard Cyganiak: Re: 107, discussion on list. Would be good to have Antoine explain concern. Issue of clarity of definitions. ←
16:49:34 <sandro> RRSAgent, make logs public
Sandro Hawke: RRSAgent, make logs public ←
Formatted by CommonScribe
This revision (#1) generated 2013-02-06 16:50:39 UTC by 'sandro', comments: None