16:01:57 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/01-rdf-wg-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/01-rdf-wg-irc ←
16:01:59 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
16:02:01 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394 ←
16:02:01 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago ←
16:02:02 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
16:02:02 <trackbot> Date: 01 February 2012
16:02:11 <ivan> zakim, who is on the phone?
Ivan Herman: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
16:02:15 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, ivan ←
16:02:19 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, MacTed, AlexHall, gavinc, Arnaud, AZ, pfps, swh, AndyS, LeeF, mischat, ivan, SteveH, danbri, mdmdm, manu1, davidwood, yvesr, NickH, trackbot, manu, sandro,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see RRSAgent, MacTed, AlexHall, gavinc, Arnaud, AZ, pfps, swh, AndyS, LeeF, mischat, ivan, SteveH, danbri, mdmdm, manu1, davidwood, yvesr, NickH, trackbot, manu, sandro, ←
16:02:22 <Zakim> ... ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: ... ericP ←
16:02:23 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip ←
16:02:28 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made ←
16:02:57 <MacTed> Zakim, this is 73394
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, this is 73394 ←
16:02:58 <Zakim> ok, MacTed; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, MacTed; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM ←
16:02:59 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's here? ←
16:02:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, davidwood, AZ, OpenLink_Software, ??P11, AlexHall, Arnaud, gavinc, Ivan, sandro, ??P16, Souri
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, davidwood, AZ, OpenLink_Software, ??P11, AlexHall, Arnaud, gavinc, Ivan, sandro, ??P16, Souri ←
16:03:02 <Zakim> On IRC I see Souri, Zakim, RRSAgent, MacTed, AlexHall, gavinc, Arnaud, AZ, pfps, swh, AndyS, LeeF, mischat, ivan, SteveH, danbri, mdmdm, manu1, davidwood, yvesr, NickH, trackbot,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Souri, Zakim, RRSAgent, MacTed, AlexHall, gavinc, Arnaud, AZ, pfps, swh, AndyS, LeeF, mischat, ivan, SteveH, danbri, mdmdm, manu1, davidwood, yvesr, NickH, trackbot, ←
16:03:04 <Zakim> ... manu, sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: ... manu, sandro, ericP ←
16:03:11 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me ←
16:03:12 <AndyS> zakim, ??P11 is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P11 is me ←
16:03:12 <swh> Zakim, ??P16 is me
Steve Harris: Zakim, ??P16 is me ←
16:03:13 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
16:03:14 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it ←
16:03:18 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it ←
16:03:20 <Zakim> +swh; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +swh; got it ←
16:03:22 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
16:03:42 <AlexHall> scribe: alexhall
(Scribe set to Alex Hall)
16:03:47 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 25 Jan telecon:
David Wood: PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 25 Jan telecon: ←
16:03:47 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-01-25
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-01-25 ←
16:03:51 <AlexHall> topic: admin
16:04:02 <davidwood> Action item review:
David Wood: Action item review: ←
16:04:02 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - item
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - item ←
16:04:02 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview ←
16:04:02 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open ←
16:04:10 <AlexHall> davidwood: no objections, minutes accepted
David Wood: no objections, minutes accepted ←
16:04:21 <AlexHall> RESOLVED to accept the minutes of the 25 Jan telecon
RESOLVED: accept the minutes of the 25 Jan telecon ←
16:04:40 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
16:04:40 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted ←
16:04:44 <Zakim> +LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: +LeeF ←
16:04:53 <Zakim> +PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH ←
16:05:15 <AlexHall> davidwood: action item reviews
David Wood: action item reviews ←
16:05:18 <MacTed> s/RESOLVED to accept/RESOLVED: accept/
16:06:04 <AlexHall> davidwood: eric completed his review of XML Schema changes, andy commented, can mark it done
David Wood: eric completed his review of XML Schema changes, andy commented, can mark it done ←
16:06:28 <AlexHall> davidwood: past-due action items
David Wood: past-due action items ←
16:06:34 <zwu2> zakim, code?
16:06:34 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2 ←
16:06:52 <AlexHall> patH: will work on action 120
Patrick Hayes: will work on ACTION-120 ←
16:07:14 <Zakim> +zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2 ←
16:07:28 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
16:07:28 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: zwu2 should now be muted ←
16:07:37 <AlexHall> davidwood: let's talk about issue 79, what is the value of a datatyped literals whose datatype IRI is not a datatype?
David Wood: let's talk about ISSUE-79, what is the value of a datatyped literals whose datatype IRI is not a datatype? ←
16:07:41 <davidwood> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Nov/0167.html
David Wood: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Nov/0167.html ←
16:07:44 <Zakim> +EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP ←
16:08:20 <AlexHall> davidwood: cygri mentioned that he's satisfied with changes made to the wording of the spec to address this, per message on the mailing list
David Wood: cygri mentioned that he's satisfied with changes made to the wording of the spec to address this, per message on the mailing list ←
16:09:26 <AlexHall> patH: prefer the original wording, but this is OK
Patrick Hayes: prefer the original wording, but this is OK ←
16:09:48 <AlexHall> davidwood: objections to closing issue 79?
David Wood: objections to closing ISSUE-79? ←
16:09:49 <sandro> issue-79?
16:09:49 <trackbot> ISSUE-79 -- What is the value of a literal whose datatype IRI is not a datatype? -- pending review
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-79 -- What is the value of a literal whose datatype IRI is not a datatype? -- pending review ←
16:09:49 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/79
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/79 ←
16:09:57 <AlexHall> patH: editorial, not substantive
Patrick Hayes: editorial, not substantive ←
16:10:05 <davidwood> RESOLVED: to close ISSUE-79 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/79
RESOLVED: to close ISSUE-79 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/79 ←
16:10:37 <davidwood> Topic: Revisit XML Schema Datatypes in RDF and OWL?
16:11:07 <davidwood> XML Schema Datatypes in RDF and OWL is a W3C Working Group Note dated 14 March 2006:
David Wood: XML Schema Datatypes in RDF and OWL is a W3C Working Group Note dated 14 March 2006: ←
16:11:07 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-xsch-datatypes/
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-xsch-datatypes/ ←
16:11:15 <AlexHall> davidwood: cygri brought up that we might need to revisit 2006 wg note on XSD datatypes in RDF and OWL
David Wood: cygri brought up that we might need to revisit 2006 wg note on XSD datatypes in RDF and OWL ←
16:11:18 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
16:11:23 <davidwood> ack ivan
David Wood: ack ivan ←
16:11:26 <Zakim> +??P34
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P34 ←
16:11:44 <AlexHall> ivan: don't consider that a very high-priority issue
Ivan Herman: don't consider that a very high-priority issue ←
16:12:01 <NickH> zakim, ??P34 is me
Nicholas Humfrey: zakim, ??P34 is me ←
16:12:01 <Zakim> +NickH; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +NickH; got it ←
16:12:04 <AlexHall> ... wonder if anybody out there actually used the mechanism for defining new XSD datatypes in RDF
... wonder if anybody out there actually used the mechanism for defining new XSD datatypes in RDF ←
16:12:07 <NickH> Zakim, mute me
Nicholas Humfrey: Zakim, mute me ←
16:12:07 <Zakim> NickH should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: NickH should now be muted ←
16:12:12 <gavinc> ivan, TQ uses it
Gavin Carothers: ivan, TQ uses it ←
16:12:15 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
16:12:15 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
16:12:26 <AlexHall> davidwood: think some XML-heads in large enterprise might have used it
David Wood: think some XML-heads in large enterprise might have used it ←
16:12:53 <swh> Some talis people use it, but arguably incorrectly
Steve Harris: Some talis people use it, but arguably incorrectly ←
16:12:54 <gavinc> ivan, used when importing XML schema into RDF
Gavin Carothers: ivan, used when importing XML schema into RDF ←
16:13:04 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
16:13:04 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted ←
16:14:15 <AlexHall> macted: can't think of any use off the top of my head, but gut is that yes it has been used
Ted Thibodeau: can't think of any use off the top of my head, but gut is that yes it has been used ←
16:14:56 <gavinc> q+ Section 4: http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-xsch-datatypes/#section-duration needs to change
Gavin Carothers: q+ Section 4: http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-xsch-datatypes/#section-duration needs to change ←
16:15:08 <gavinc> q+ to talk about Section 4: http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-xsch-datatypes/#section-duration needs to change
Gavin Carothers: q+ to talk about Section 4: http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-xsch-datatypes/#section-duration needs to change ←
16:15:32 <AlexHall> ericP: scenario where we need to update the note is that the mechanism for defining literals changed, most likely it's backwards compatible and doesn't need revision
Eric Prud'hommeaux: scenario where we need to update the note is that the mechanism for defining literals changed, most likely it's backwards compatible and doesn't need revision ←
16:15:44 <davidwood> ack gavinc
David Wood: ack gavinc ←
16:15:44 <Zakim> gavinc, you wanted to talk about Section 4: http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-xsch-datatypes/#section-duration needs to change
Zakim IRC Bot: gavinc, you wanted to talk about Section 4: http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-xsch-datatypes/#section-duration needs to change ←
16:15:55 <AlexHall> patH: willing to look at it from semantics perspective
Patrick Hayes: willing to look at it from semantics perspective ←
16:16:40 <AlexHall> gavinc: note mentions that duration doesn't have a well-defined value space, should at least revise that part
Gavin Carothers: note mentions that duration doesn't have a well-defined value space, should at least revise that part ←
16:17:05 <AlexHall> davidwood: think we have an obligation to keep docs up to date, will email jeremy
David Wood: think we have an obligation to keep docs up to date, will email jeremy ←
16:17:19 <AlexHall> action: davidwood to ask jeremey to review XSD in RDF and OWL note
ACTION: davidwood to ask jeremey to review XSD in RDF and OWL note ←
16:17:19 <trackbot> Created ACTION-139 - Ask jeremey to review XSD in RDF and OWL note [on David Wood - due 2012-02-08].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-139 - Ask jeremey to review XSD in RDF and OWL note [on David Wood - due 2012-02-08]. ←
16:17:27 <gavinc> Zakim, mute me
Gavin Carothers: Zakim, mute me ←
16:17:27 <Zakim> gavinc should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: gavinc should now be muted ←
16:17:36 <AlexHall> action: patH to review XSD in RDF and OWL from semantics perspective
ACTION: patH to review XSD in RDF and OWL from semantics perspective ←
16:17:36 <trackbot> Created ACTION-140 - Review XSD in RDF and OWL from semantics perspective [on Patrick Hayes - due 2012-02-08].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-140 - Review XSD in RDF and OWL from semantics perspective [on Patrick Hayes - due 2012-02-08]. ←
16:17:20 <davidwood> Topic: RDF and Time
16:18:24 <AlexHall> davidwood: while pat is here, would like to talk about RDF and time to try and move forward with named graphs
David Wood: while pat is here, would like to talk about RDF and time to try and move forward with named graphs ←
16:18:43 <AlexHall> ... pat made point on mailing list that there is no notion of time sensitivity in RDF at all
... pat made point on mailing list that there is no notion of time sensitivity in RDF at all ←
16:19:10 <AlexHall> ... surprised me that named graphs are so closely related to time variability
... surprised me that named graphs are so closely related to time variability ←
16:19:26 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
16:19:50 <AlexHall> ... thought that RDF graphs always expressed a snapshot of the world at the time they were written
... thought that RDF graphs always expressed a snapshot of the world at the time they were written ←
16:20:16 <AlexHall> patH: if you think of RDF that way, it doesn't fit with the semantics
Patrick Hayes: if you think of RDF that way, it doesn't fit with the semantics ←
16:20:44 <Zakim> -Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud ←
16:20:45 <AlexHall> ... facts in RDF are not time-relative, 2 + 2 = 4 for all of eternity
... facts in RDF are not time-relative, 2 + 2 = 4 for all of eternity ←
16:21:04 <sandro> pat: RDF is a "timeless" framework, where facts are always true
Patrick Hayes: RDF is a "timeless" framework, where facts are always true [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:21:14 <AlexHall> ... if you want to talk about time, you have to explicitly put them in the ontology
... if you want to talk about time, you have to explicitly put them in the ontology ←
16:21:20 <Zakim> +Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud ←
16:21:37 <sandro> pat: from Aristotle forward, that's how mathematicians have liked to think of it.
Patrick Hayes: from Aristotle forward, that's how mathematicians have liked to think of it. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:21:55 <sandro> pat: or you have have a time-embedded framework, with an implicit "now".
Patrick Hayes: or you have have a time-embedded framework, with an implicit "now". [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:21:58 <ericP> pat: in time-embedded, if you say the same thing at different times, it means different things
Patrick Hayes: in time-embedded, if you say the same thing at different times, it means different things [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ] ←
16:22:02 <AlexHall> ... you can also think of facts as time-embedded, saying the same thing at two different times can mean two things
... you can also think of facts as time-embedded, saying the same thing at two different times can mean two things ←
16:22:15 <sandro> pat: in the second case, the inference rules change.
Patrick Hayes: in the second case, the inference rules change. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:22:15 <ericP> ... so you have to incorporate that context into the semantics
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... so you have to incorporate that context into the semantics ←
16:22:28 <AlexHall> ... it's natural to think that way, but it complicates the logic when time is implicit in the graph
... it's natural to think that way, but it complicates the logic when time is implicit in the graph ←
16:22:52 <sandro> pat: so the question is whether RDF is timeless or time-embedded. It's not possible to prevent people from using it in a time-embedded way because that's how people think of this.
Patrick Hayes: so the question is whether RDF is timeless or time-embedded. It's not possible to prevent people from using it in a time-embedded way because that's how people think of this. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:22:58 <AlexHall> ... impossible to prevent people from using RDF in a time-embedded way
... impossible to prevent people from using RDF in a time-embedded way ←
16:22:59 <sandro> q-
Sandro Hawke: q- ←
16:23:42 <sandro> eric: Do have to say, "as of this date, our understanding is, this protein has these properties..."
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Do have to say, "as of this date, our understanding is, this protein has these properties..." [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:24:35 <AlexHall> patH: scale is important; if data is expected to change over the course of the time that the data is used, then you need to account for time
Patrick Hayes: scale is important; if data is expected to change over the course of the time that the data is used, then you need to account for time ←
16:24:54 <sandro> eric: So they differ in degree -- time range of things changing -- not actually in kind.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: So they differ in degree -- time range of things changing -- not actually in kind. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:25:12 <AlexHall> patH: e.g. weather report for this week vs. geologic time scales
Patrick Hayes: e.g. weather report for this week vs. geologic time scales ←
16:25:38 <sandro> ted: One might expect that HTTP caching and expiration mechanism could be used to help with this.
Ted Thibodeau: One might expect that HTTP caching and expiration mechanism could be used to help with this. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:26:23 <Arnaud> given that time sensitivity is really dependent on the type of data you're dealing with isn't that better left to the application?
Arnaud Le Hors: given that time sensitivity is really dependent on the type of data you're dealing with isn't that better left to the application? ←
16:26:33 <AlexHall> patH: expect that this conversation is going to arrive at the point where we have to acknowledge that people use RDF in a time-embedded way
Patrick Hayes: expect that this conversation is going to arrive at the point where we have to acknowledge that people use RDF in a time-embedded way ←
16:27:01 <sandro> davidwood: Our charter gives us use cases that need this to be address to solve them....
David Wood: Our charter gives us use cases that need this to be address to solve them.... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:27:49 <AlexHall> david: Find this to be the heart of the problem, that named graphs are very closely tied to provenance which is how time sensitivity is addressed
David Wood: Find this to be the heart of the problem, that named graphs are very closely tied to provenance which is how time sensitivity is addressed ←
16:28:25 <AlexHall> patH: one approach is to say that the modelers are always going to have to account for time in their data
Patrick Hayes: one approach is to say that the modelers are always going to have to account for time in their data ←
16:28:49 <AlexHall> ... but modelers aren't going to do that because it's hard and unnatural
... but modelers aren't going to do that because it's hard and unnatural ←
16:28:54 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
16:29:01 <davidwood> ack sandro
David Wood: ack sandro ←
16:29:07 <AlexHall> david: also affects versioning and merging of graphs created at different times
David Wood: also affects versioning and merging of graphs created at different times ←
16:29:48 <AlexHall> patH: true, time information has to be captured to effectively merge datasets where time is implicit
Patrick Hayes: true, time information has to be captured to effectively merge datasets where time is implicit ←
16:29:57 <patH> peter, I never saw you as a tosser.
Patrick Hayes: peter, I never saw you as a tosser. ←
16:30:23 <AlexHall> sandro: can add a simple triple into the dataset, "the time right now is X"
Sandro Hawke: can add a simple triple into the dataset, "the time right now is X" ←
16:31:00 <AlexHall> ... use this triple to add extra checks to see that merged graphs were at the same time
... use this triple to add extra checks to see that merged graphs were at the same time ←
16:31:33 <AlexHall> patH: the point is, lots of applications aren't currently doing this check and would be broken
Patrick Hayes: the point is, lots of applications aren't currently doing this check and would be broken ←
16:31:36 <sandro> pat: context logics, sub-intervals
Patrick Hayes: context logics, sub-intervals [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:31:48 <gavinc> +q to ask Who is asking us to fix this?
Gavin Carothers: +q to ask Who is asking us to fix this? ←
16:32:01 <AlexHall> david: these rules would be very complicated. i might choose to believe data that's an hour old and not a week old.
David Wood: these rules would be very complicated. i might choose to believe data that's an hour old and not a week old. ←
16:32:04 <ericP> q+ to give a use case: should i prescribe drug X for disease Y given old evidence that it helped and newer (but less-reviewed) evidence that it hurts
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to give a use case: should i prescribe drug X for disease Y given old evidence that it helped and newer (but less-reviewed) evidence that it hurts ←
16:32:22 <davidwood> ack gavinc
David Wood: ack gavinc ←
16:32:23 <Zakim> gavinc, you wanted to ask Who is asking us to fix this?
Zakim IRC Bot: gavinc, you wanted to ask Who is asking us to fix this? ←
16:32:27 <AlexHall> patH: context logics have tried to account for this by adding time intervals, etc.
Patrick Hayes: context logics have tried to account for this by adding time intervals, etc. ←
16:32:32 <davidwood> ack ericp
David Wood: ack ericp ←
16:32:32 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to give a use case: should i prescribe drug X for disease Y given old evidence that it helped and newer (but less-reviewed) evidence that it hurts
Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to give a use case: should i prescribe drug X for disease Y given old evidence that it helped and newer (but less-reviewed) evidence that it hurts ←
16:33:16 <patH> eric, that is a different issue i think.
Patrick Hayes: eric, that is a different issue i think. ←
16:33:18 <AlexHall> ericP: the way we usually solve this is with SPARQL -- put thresholds in the query, get all information to make a human decision
Eric Prud'hommeaux: the way we usually solve this is with SPARQL -- put thresholds in the query, get all information to make a human decision ←
16:33:35 <Souri> Is it too naive to consider use of the fourth component (graph?) to define the context (time, space, ...): <ctxt1> { :John a :TeenAger } <ctxt2> { :John a :Octogenarian} <ctxt3>{ <ctxt1> :when 1937 . <ctxt2> :when 2007} <ctxt4> {<ctxt3> :creationYear 2012}
Souripriya Das: Is it too naive to consider use of the fourth component (graph?) to define the context (time, space, ...): <ctxt1> { :John a :TeenAger } <ctxt2> { :John a :Octogenarian} <ctxt3>{ <ctxt1> :when 1937 . <ctxt2> :when 2007} <ctxt4> {<ctxt3> :creationYear 2012} ←
16:34:19 <AlexHall> ... state of the art for this is to put relevant information in front of a human to make final decision
... state of the art for this is to put relevant information in front of a human to make final decision ←
16:34:19 <patH> souri, i think that is the only feasible ideas to standardize, but might be too restrictive.
Patrick Hayes: souri, i think that is the only feasible ideas to standardize, but might be too restrictive. ←
16:34:39 <AlexHall> does this scale at all?
does this scale at all? ←
16:34:39 <patH> +q
Patrick Hayes: +q ←
16:35:40 <AlexHall> gavin: out of all of us, who is trying to work on a system that is approaching this from a time-implicit way?
Gavin Carothers: out of all of us, who is trying to work on a system that is approaching this from a time-implicit way? ←
16:36:15 <AlexHall> sandro: asked govt people about this, they use dc:temporal with a time range, required to be in any dataset
Sandro Hawke: asked govt people about this, they use dc:temporal with a time range, required to be in any dataset ←
16:36:16 <davidwood> ack patH
David Wood: ack patH ←
16:36:20 <zwu2> I know a use case that requires associate creation timestamp with every triple
Zhe Wu: I know a use case that requires associate creation timestamp with every triple ←
16:37:00 <gavinc> Zakim, mute me
Gavin Carothers: Zakim, mute me ←
16:37:00 <Zakim> gavinc should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: gavinc should now be muted ←
16:37:02 <AlexHall> patH: saw another use case where they had an OWL ontology, described for each property its likely time persistence (short/long/medium-lived)
Patrick Hayes: saw another use case where they had an OWL ontology, described for each property its likely time persistence (short/long/medium-lived) ←
16:37:25 <AlexHall> ... allows for pretty complicated modeling (about weather in this case)
... allows for pretty complicated modeling (about weather in this case) ←
16:38:14 <AlexHall> ... going back to eric's use case, you really do have to have a human for this, it's too complex. lots of use cases are simpler, e.g. weather forecasts
... going back to eric's use case, you really do have to have a human for this, it's too complex. lots of use cases are simpler, e.g. weather forecasts ←
16:38:43 <AlexHall> ... think we can at least give advice to implementers about how to handle these simpler use cases
... think we can at least give advice to implementers about how to handle these simpler use cases ←
16:38:45 <Zakim> -Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud ←
16:39:17 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?
Andy Seaborne: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
16:39:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, davidwood, AZ, MacTed, AndyS, AlexHall, gavinc (muted), Ivan, sandro, swh, Souri, LeeF, PatH, zwu2 (muted), EricP, NickH (muted)
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, davidwood, AZ, MacTed, AndyS, AlexHall, gavinc (muted), Ivan, sandro, swh, Souri, LeeF, PatH, zwu2 (muted), EricP, NickH (muted) ←
16:39:20 <AlexHall> david: think implementers would say it's too much cost for not much benefit
David Wood: think implementers would say it's too much cost for not much benefit ←
16:39:43 <AlexHall> sandro: would love to have steve's input, they harvest lots of time-sensitive data
Sandro Hawke: would love to have steve's input, they harvest lots of time-sensitive data ←
16:40:00 <LeeF> swh, are you here?
Lee Feigenbaum: swh, are you here? ←
16:40:05 <LeeF> SteveH, are you here?
Lee Feigenbaum: SteveH, are you here? ←
16:40:08 <AlexHall> eric: think they incorporate a timestamp into the graph tag
Eric Prud'hommeaux: think they incorporate a timestamp into the graph tag ←
16:40:33 <AlexHall> ... use metadata to track the graphs
... use metadata to track the graphs ←
16:40:58 <swh> LeeF, yeah, Im here, was AFK breifly
Steve Harris: LeeF, yeah, Im here, was AFK breifly ←
16:40:59 <AlexHall> pat: this is the 4th approach so far this call. lots of different possibilities
Patrick Hayes: this is the 4th approach so far this call. lots of different possibilities ←
16:42:41 <AlexHall> steveH: we do incorporate a timestamp into the graph IRI, add a statement inside the graph to record this timestamp
Steve Harris: we do incorporate a timestamp into the graph IRI, add a statement inside the graph to record this timestamp ←
16:43:23 <AlexHall> ... if something is true across time, then it will appear in multiple graphs for as long as it's true
... if something is true across time, then it will appear in multiple graphs for as long as it's true ←
16:43:41 <AlexHall> eric: is the triple predictable? could it already be in the graph?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: is the triple predictable? could it already be in the graph? ←
16:43:54 <gavinc> Ding ding! Graph IRI varies with date, same way that WARC solved this as well.
Gavin Carothers: Ding ding! Graph IRI varies with date, same way that WARC solved this as well. ←
16:44:09 <MacTed> self-description is important...
Ted Thibodeau: self-description is important... ←
16:44:13 <AlexHall> steve: we don't allow this, we would filter out that predicate
Steve Harris: we don't allow this, we would filter out that predicate ←
16:44:17 <MacTed> "follow your nose" falls down without it
Ted Thibodeau: "follow your nose" falls down without it ←
16:44:36 <AlexHall> patH: how do you distinguish things that are time-dependent vs. what isn't?
Patrick Hayes: how do you distinguish things that are time-dependent vs. what isn't? ←
16:45:06 <AlexHall> steve: we don't mix different approaches in one system. either a system is time-dependent or it isn't
Steve Harris: we don't mix different approaches in one system. either a system is time-dependent or it isn't ←
16:45:15 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
16:45:41 <AlexHall> david: eric mentioned grabbing data from a particular time range and present to the user for a choice. do you do this?
David Wood: eric mentioned grabbing data from a particular time range and present to the user for a choice. do you do this? ←
16:45:44 <MacTed> "the graph IRI", "inside the graph" refer to Gsnap? Gtext? Gbox? hurrah for overloaded terms!
Ted Thibodeau: "the graph IRI", "inside the graph" refer to Gsnap? Gtext? Gbox? hurrah for overloaded terms! ←
16:46:00 <AlexHall> steve: we just grab the most recent value, maybe show the most recent time it was true.
Steve Harris: we just grab the most recent value, maybe show the most recent time it was true. ←
16:46:05 <gavinc> well, time
Gavin Carothers: well, time ←
16:46:54 <AlexHall> david: would like to talk about gavin's point that time is encoded in the data with graph IRIs.
David Wood: would like to talk about gavin's point that time is encoded in the data with graph IRIs. ←
16:47:02 <Zakim> +Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud ←
16:47:14 <AlexHall> sandro: would UUID's also work? you don't actually get time from the timestamp?
Sandro Hawke: would UUID's also work? you don't actually get time from the timestamped IRI? ←
16:47:50 <AlexHall> s/from the timestamp/from the timestamped IRI/
16:48:14 <AlexHall> steve: we mostly use the timestamp for human readability, UUID would be OK
Steve Harris: we mostly use the timestamp for human readability, UUID would be OK ←
16:49:05 <Souri> time-delimited truth
Souripriya Das: time-delimited truth ←
16:49:16 <AlexHall> david: think this discussion has been valuable. we know that people are encoding time data in RDF for stuff that's true for a time. we know people are using this in the field. we know not every fact expressed in RDF is eternally true
David Wood: think this discussion has been valuable. we know that people are encoding time data in RDF for stuff that's true for a time. we know people are using this in the field. we know not every fact expressed in RDF is eternally true ←
16:49:43 <patH> the real issue is, is the time-stamp part of the rdf data or not?
Patrick Hayes: the real issue is, is the time-stamp part of the rdf data or not? ←
16:49:53 <AlexHall> ... where does that leave us in relation to e.g. time-varying IRIs?
... where does that leave us in relation to e.g. time-varying IRIs? ←
16:50:39 <AlexHall> sandro: sounds like steve's approach is what i labeled as TRIG/equality, think that's a reasonable straw-man starting point
Sandro Hawke: sounds like steve's approach is what i labeled as TRIG/equality, think that's a reasonable straw-man starting point ←
16:50:47 <patH> and is it in each triple or just in an entire graph?
Patrick Hayes: and is it in each triple or just in an entire graph? ←
16:50:51 <ericP> q+ to point out that we can let people migrate from eternal to snapped
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to point out that we can let people migrate from eternal to snapped ←
16:50:55 <gavinc> Not really no ;)
Gavin Carothers: Not really no ;) ←
16:51:09 <patH> :-)
Patrick Hayes: :-) ←
16:51:34 <AlexHall> ... vs TRIG/REST which would put the time-varying nature of the retrieval more into the core
... vs TRIG/REST which would put the time-varying nature of the retrieval more into the core ←
16:51:38 <patH> q+
Patrick Hayes: q+ ←
16:52:17 <AlexHall> ... TRIG/equality makes the relation between a graph IRI and its triples time-invarying, think this is a safer approach
... TRIG/equality makes the relation between a graph IRI and its triples time-invarying, think this is a safer approach ←
16:52:46 <AlexHall> ... steve, after you read in a graph and associate an IRI with it, do you ever modify it?
... steve, after you read in a graph and associate an IRI with it, do you ever modify it? ←
16:53:01 <gavinc> "Assign an IRI that is globally unique for its period of intended use."
Gavin Carothers: "Assign an IRI that is globally unique for its period of intended use." ←
16:53:09 <AlexHall> steve: no, it stays constant
Steve Harris: no, it stays constant ←
16:53:34 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
16:54:07 <AlexHall> ted: that's the danger of putting timestamps into IRIs, blurs the line between opaque IRIs and the urge for humans to ascribe meaning to the IRIs
Ted Thibodeau: that's the danger of putting timestamps into IRIs, blurs the line between opaque IRIs and the urge for humans to ascribe meaning to the IRIs ←
16:54:15 <davidwood> ack ericP
David Wood: ack ericP ←
16:54:15 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to point out that we can let people migrate from eternal to snapped
Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to point out that we can let people migrate from eternal to snapped ←
16:54:44 <AlexHall> (universal agreement that you shouldn't be parsing a timestamp from an IRI, it should be explicit in triples)
(universal agreement that you shouldn't be parsing a timestamp from an IRI, it should be explicit in triples) ←
16:55:23 <AlexHall> eric: could get pushback from people who just want to do simple time-invariant modeling if we make it more complicated to account for time variance.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: could get pushback from people who just want to do simple time-invariant modeling if we make it more complicated to account for time variance. ←
16:56:17 <AlexHall> ... we should make it easy for people to start with the easy case (invariant) and optionally adding in time variance
... we should make it easy for people to start with the easy case (invariant) and optionally adding in time variance ←
16:57:35 <AlexHall> david: this tells me that all graphs are potentially time-variant
David Wood: this tells me that all graphs are potentially time-variant ←
16:57:45 <davidwood> ack PatH
David Wood: ack PatH ←
16:58:20 <AndyS> The graph (value) does not vary in RDF's ideal view of the world.. The value in the g-box changes.
Andy Seaborne: The graph (value) does not vary in RDF's ideal view of the world.. The value in the g-box changes. ←
16:58:25 <AlexHall> patH: no -- if we're talking about geologic time spans, we don't expect to RDF data to survive this
Patrick Hayes: no -- if we're talking about geologic time spans, we don't expect to RDF data to survive this ←
16:58:35 <MacTed> q+
Ted Thibodeau: q+ ←
16:58:57 <sandro> Yeah. How the heck are people supposed to publish the weather in RDF? It's the first example in AWWW.
Sandro Hawke: Yeah. How the heck are people supposed to publish the weather in RDF? It's the first example in AWWW. ←
16:59:27 <AlexHall> ... if the publisher of the data expects the data to be time-varying, that has to be accounted for
... if the publisher of the data expects the data to be time-varying, that has to be accounted for ←
16:59:42 <sandro> ted: Until the moment things change, you may think what you're saying is going to be true for all time.
Ted Thibodeau: Until the moment things change, you may think what you're saying is going to be true for all time. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
17:00:14 <AlexHall> ... macted: time variance can't necessarily be predicted, unexpected change happens all the time in science, e.g.
... macted: time variance can't necessarily be predicted, unexpected change happens all the time in science, e.g. ←
17:00:21 <sandro> pat: All data is subject to being wrong, yes. But that's not the same as tomorrow's weather is going to be different from today's.
Patrick Hayes: All data is subject to being wrong, yes. But that's not the same as tomorrow's weather is going to be different from today's. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
17:00:35 <swh> database people have been dealing with this for decades - it's fine
Steve Harris: database people have been dealing with this for decades - it's fine ←
17:00:49 <pfps> I agree with swh - strongly - there is nothing new here
Peter Patel-Schneider: I agree with swh - strongly - there is nothing new here ←
17:00:55 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
17:01:02 <Zakim> -Souri
Zakim IRC Bot: -Souri ←
17:01:04 <ivan> ack MacTed
Ivan Herman: ack MacTed ←
17:01:59 <AlexHall> macted: if data that was thought to be immutable suddenly becomes mutable, that is a bigger problem than data that was thought to be mutable actually being immutable
Ted Thibodeau: if data that was thought to be immutable suddenly becomes mutable, that is a bigger problem than data that was thought to be mutable actually being immutable ←
17:02:05 <sandro> q+ to say there seems to be confusion about what's mutable. (1) what's true changes, (2) the state of resources MIGHT change or be frozen, (3) g-snaps never change.
Sandro Hawke: q+ to say there seems to be confusion about what's mutable. (1) what's true changes, (2) the state of resources MIGHT change or be frozen, (3) g-snaps never change. ←
17:02:49 <AlexHall> patH: that's true, but we shouldn't force all data to be mutable in the data model
Patrick Hayes: that's true, but we shouldn't force all data to be mutable in the data model ←
17:02:56 <davidwood> ack sandro
David Wood: ack sandro ←
17:03:17 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to say there seems to be confusion about what's mutable. (1) what's true changes, (2) the state of resources MIGHT change or be frozen, (3) g-snaps never
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to say there seems to be confusion about what's mutable. (1) what's true changes, (2) the state of resources MIGHT change or be frozen, (3) g-snaps never ←
17:03:20 <Zakim> ... change.
Zakim IRC Bot: ... change. ←
17:03:34 <swh> publishing weather, dc:date… next?
Steve Harris: publishing weather, dc:date… next? ←
17:03:38 <swh> q+
Steve Harris: q+ ←
17:04:11 <davidwood> ack swh
David Wood: ack swh ←
17:04:30 <AlexHall> sandro: think we should focus on how do you publish the weather in RDF. it's the prototypical example, have no idea right now of how to do that, if we can do that then maybe it can be extended to other problems.
Sandro Hawke: think we should focus on how do you publish the weather in RDF. it's the prototypical example, have no idea right now of how to do that, if we can do that then maybe it can be extended to other problems. ←
17:04:34 <patH> q+
Patrick Hayes: q+ ←
17:04:57 <davidwood> ack patH
David Wood: ack patH ←
17:05:03 <NickH> +1 to swh
Nicholas Humfrey: +1 to swh ←
17:05:16 <AlexHall> steveH: i think we're overthinking this. database people have been handling this problem just fine for decades, using timestamp fields in tables
Steve Harris: i think we're overthinking this. database people have been handling this problem just fine for decades, using timestamp fields in tables ←
17:05:34 <sandro> swh, any idea why data.gov.uk chose to use dc:temporal instead of dc:date ?
Sandro Hawke: swh, any idea why data.gov.uk chose to use dc:temporal instead of dc:date ? ←
17:05:51 <AlexHall> patH: i agree, don't think it's hard, it's a question of how to do it?
Patrick Hayes: i agree, don't think it's hard, it's a question of how to do it? ←
17:06:28 <swh> sandro, no idea, dc:date is possibly not the right choice, was just a strawman
Steve Harris: sandro, no idea, dc:date is possibly not the right choice, was just a strawman ←
17:06:31 <davidwood> "every triple is sacred"
David Wood: "every triple is sacred" ←
17:06:43 <AlexHall> ... don't want to have to timestamp every triple that can possibly be time-varying
... don't want to have to timestamp every triple that can possibly be time-varying ←
17:07:04 <AndyS> different domain of discourse
Andy Seaborne: different domain of discourse ←
17:07:32 <AlexHall> ... could modify the semantics if we decided a standard way of timestamping a graph. then people could understand one another.
... could modify the semantics if we decided a standard way of timestamping a graph. then people could understand one another. ←
17:08:13 <AlexHall> ivan: essentially defining a timestamp vocabulary
Ivan Herman: essentially defining a timestamp vocabulary ←
17:08:33 <AlexHall> patH: yes, and a convention for adding a timestamp triple to a graph
Patrick Hayes: yes, and a convention for adding a timestamp triple to a graph ←
17:09:21 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
17:09:34 <sandro> ted: lack of this triple has to be taken as there-with-a-bnode --- all the RDF data out there is implicitely time dependent.
Ted Thibodeau: lack of this triple has to be taken as there-with-a-bnode --- all the RDF data out there is implicitely time dependent. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
17:09:45 <AlexHall> ???: what to do with all the existing data out there?
Ted Thibodeau: what to do with all the existing data out there? ←
17:10:00 <AlexHall> ... it won't have this triple, but might be time dependent
... it won't have this triple, but might be time dependent ←
17:10:00 <sandro> s/???/ted/
17:10:26 <AlexHall> patH: think we can work out the details of this over email
Patrick Hayes: think we can work out the details of this over email ←
17:11:15 <AlexHall> david: if we were to do this and modify the semantics in a way with minimal impact to deployed data, would this buy us anything in the named graph discussion?
David Wood: if we were to do this and modify the semantics in a way with minimal impact to deployed data, would this buy us anything in the named graph discussion? ←
17:11:24 <AlexHall> patH: i think it would, yes
Patrick Hayes: i think it would, yes ←
17:11:49 <AlexHall> davidwood: can you formulate a proposal for a strawpoll?
David Wood: can you formulate a proposal for a strawpoll? ←
17:12:08 <AlexHall> patH: yes, maybe in the next week or so
Patrick Hayes: yes, maybe in the next week or so ←
17:12:31 <davidwood> Alex, please assign an action to Pat
David Wood: Alex, please assign an action to Pat ←
17:12:42 <AlexHall> ivan: not sure what you mean by this. are all triples quads where the fourth entry is a timestamp?
Ivan Herman: not sure what you mean by this. are all triples quads where the fourth entry is a timestamp? ←
17:13:53 <AlexHall> ... what does it mean that the timestamp vocabulary has a semantics? does it extend the model theory semantics? or is it just described in plain english?
... what does it mean that the timestamp vocabulary has a semantics? does it extend the model theory semantics? or is it just described in plain english? ←
17:13:54 <sandro> ivan: We have the word semantics used in the semantic web with many different semantics. :-)
Ivan Herman: We have the word semantics used in the semantic web with many different semantics. :-) [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
17:14:14 <AlexHall> pat: model theory
Patrick Hayes: model theory ←
17:14:46 <AlexHall> ivan: this worries me. afraid that adding this to the model theory would make it too complicated.
Ivan Herman: this worries me. afraid that adding this to the model theory would make it too complicated. ←
17:15:03 <AlexHall> pat: don't think that describing it in english makes it any easier
Patrick Hayes: don't think that describing it in english makes it any easier ←
17:16:49 <AlexHall> action: patH to propose a vocabulary and semantics for adding timestamps to RDF graphs
ACTION: patH to propose a vocabulary and semantics for adding timestamps to RDF graphs ←
17:16:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-141 - Propose a vocabulary and semantics for adding timestamps to RDF graphs [on Patrick Hayes - due 2012-02-08].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-141 - Propose a vocabulary and semantics for adding timestamps to RDF graphs [on Patrick Hayes - due 2012-02-08]. ←
17:17:53 <Zakim> -gavinc
Zakim IRC Bot: -gavinc ←
17:18:04 <AlexHall> davidwood: out of time. i think if pat can make a proposal, and if it has minimal impact on existing data, then i think we have a good way forward
David Wood: out of time. i think if pat can make a proposal, and if it has minimal impact on existing data, then i think we have a good way forward ←
17:18:13 <sandro> we don't have a named graphs deadlock -- we have no cogent proposals on which to deadlock.
Sandro Hawke: we don't have a named graphs deadlock -- we have no cogent proposals on which to deadlock. ←
17:18:19 <AlexHall> ... adjourned.
... adjourned. ←
Formatted by CommonScribe
This revision (#1) generated 2012-02-01 18:10:34 UTC by 'alexhall', comments: None