14:58:13 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/04/06-rdf-wg-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/04/06-rdf-wg-irc ←
14:58:14 <danbri_> regrets from me, am also in a meeting
Dan Brickley: regrets from me, am also in a meeting ←
14:58:15 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
14:58:17 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394 ←
14:58:17 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes ←
14:58:18 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:58:18 <trackbot> Date: 06 April 2011
14:58:23 <danbri_> (though within earshot of guus)
Dan Brickley: (though within earshot of guus) ←
14:58:24 <LeeF> trackbot, this will be rdfwg
Lee Feigenbaum: trackbot, this will be rdfwg ←
14:58:24 <trackbot> Sorry, LeeF, I don't understand 'trackbot, this will be rdfwg'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, LeeF, I don't understand 'trackbot, this will be rdfwg'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help ←
14:58:29 <LeeF> zakim, this will be rdfwg
Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, this will be rdfwg ←
14:58:29 <Zakim> ok, LeeF, I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM already started
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, LeeF, I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM already started ←
14:58:33 <Zakim> +??P24
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P24 ←
14:58:41 <AndyS1> zakim, ??P24 is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P24 is me ←
14:58:41 <Zakim> +AndyS1; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS1; got it ←
14:58:41 <FabGandon> zakim, who's on the phone?
Fabien Gandon: zakim, who's on the phone? ←
14:58:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see FabGandon, +31.20.598.aaaa, Tony, AndyS1
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see FabGandon, +31.20.598.aaaa, Tony, AndyS1 ←
14:58:45 <Zakim> +Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro ←
14:58:58 <LeeF> zakim, code?
Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, code? ←
14:58:58 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), LeeF ←
14:59:00 <Zakim> +gavinc
Zakim IRC Bot: +gavinc ←
14:59:15 <Zakim> +??P17
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P17 ←
14:59:20 <Zakim> +LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: +LeeF ←
14:59:42 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider
Zakim IRC Bot: +Peter_Patel-Schneider ←
14:59:46 <Zakim> +??P7
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P7 ←
14:59:57 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby
Zakim IRC Bot: +OlivierCorby ←
15:00:13 <mbrunati> zakim, ??P17 is me
Matteo Brunati: zakim, ??P17 is me ←
15:00:13 <Zakim> +mbrunati; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +mbrunati; got it ←
15:00:22 <Zakim> +Tony
Zakim IRC Bot: +Tony ←
15:00:54 <Zakim> + +43.512.507.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: + +43.512.507.aabb ←
15:01:00 <SteveH_> Zakim, ??P7 is [Garlik]
Steve Harris: Zakim, ??P7 is [Garlik] ←
15:01:00 <Zakim> +[Garlik]; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +[Garlik]; got it ←
15:01:09 <SteveH> Zakim, [Garlik] has SteveH and mischat
Steve Harris: Zakim, [Garlik] has SteveH and mischat ←
15:01:09 <Zakim> +SteveH, mischat; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +SteveH, mischat; got it ←
15:01:28 <Zakim> +??P21
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P21 ←
15:01:47 <Zakim> +Souri_
Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri_ ←
15:02:43 <Zakim> +AlexHall
Zakim IRC Bot: +AlexHall ←
15:03:08 <cygri> zakim, ??P21 is me
Richard Cyganiak: zakim, ??P21 is me ←
15:03:08 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +cygri; got it ←
15:03:20 <Zakim> +PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH ←
15:03:29 <sandro> pchampin, you're scheduled to scribe today....
Sandro Hawke: pchampin, you're scheduled to scribe today.... ←
15:03:31 <hsbauer> I don't seem to be recognized on the call again: Scott Bauer
Scott Bauer: I don't seem to be recognized on the call again: Scott Bauer ←
15:03:36 <pchampin> yes
Pierre-Antoine Champin: yes ←
15:03:44 <pchampin> struggling with zakim to dial in
Pierre-Antoine Champin: struggling with zakim to dial in ←
15:03:52 <pchampin> shouldn't take too long :-/
Pierre-Antoine Champin: shouldn't take too long :-/ ←
15:04:12 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call? ←
15:04:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see FabGandon, +31.20.598.aaaa, AndyS1, Sandro, gavinc, mbrunati, LeeF, Peter_Patel-Schneider, [Garlik], OlivierCorby, Tony, +43.512.507.aabb, cygri, Souri_,
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see FabGandon, +31.20.598.aaaa, AndyS1, Sandro, gavinc, mbrunati, LeeF, Peter_Patel-Schneider, [Garlik], OlivierCorby, Tony, +43.512.507.aabb, cygri, Souri_, ←
15:04:15 <PatHayes> I had a few snags with zakim today.
Patrick Hayes: I had a few snags with zakim today. ←
15:04:15 <Zakim> ... AlexHall, PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: ... AlexHall, PatH ←
15:04:15 <Zakim> [Garlik] has SteveH, mischat
Zakim IRC Bot: [Garlik] has SteveH, mischat ←
15:04:47 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here? ←
15:04:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see FabGandon, +31.20.598.aaaa, AndyS1, Sandro, gavinc, mbrunati, LeeF, Peter_Patel-Schneider, [Garlik], OlivierCorby, Tony, +43.512.507.aabb, cygri, Souri_,
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see FabGandon, +31.20.598.aaaa, AndyS1, Sandro, gavinc, mbrunati, LeeF, Peter_Patel-Schneider, [Garlik], OlivierCorby, Tony, +43.512.507.aabb, cygri, Souri_, ←
15:04:51 <Zakim> ... AlexHall, PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: ... AlexHall, PatH ←
15:04:51 <Zakim> [Garlik] has SteveH, mischat
Zakim IRC Bot: [Garlik] has SteveH, mischat ←
15:04:53 <SteveH> q-
Steve Harris: q- ←
15:05:00 <SteveH> queue=
Steve Harris: queue= ←
15:05:06 <sandro> zakim, Tony is hsbauer
Sandro Hawke: zakim, Tony is hsbauer ←
15:05:06 <Zakim> +hsbauer; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +hsbauer; got it ←
15:05:12 <pchampin> can you remind me the conference code?
Pierre-Antoine Champin: can you remind me the conference code? ←
15:05:12 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
15:05:17 <hsbauer> thanks
Scott Bauer: thanks ←
15:05:19 <pchampin> rdfwg?
Pierre-Antoine Champin: rdfwg? ←
15:05:20 <sandro> zakim, what is the code?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, what is the code? ←
15:05:20 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), sandro ←
15:05:32 <Zakim> +Luca
Zakim IRC Bot: +Luca ←
15:05:33 <Guus> 73394
Guus Schreiber: 73394 ←
15:05:50 <pchampin> scribe: pchampin
(Scribe set to Pierre-Antoine Champin)
15:07:01 <JFB> Sorry I won't be able to be on the phone today: my phone's not working....
Jean-François Baget: Sorry I won't be able to be on the phone today: my phone's not working.... ←
15:38:45 <pchampin> topic: Announcement: Provenance WG
(No events recorded for 31 minutes)
15:38:45 <pchampin> sandro: the provenance WG just started, interested participants should join it
Sandro Hawke: the provenance WG just started, interested participants should join it ←
15:07:09 <pchampin> topic: administrative
15:07:20 <pfps> minutes look good
Peter Patel-Schneider: minutes look good ←
15:07:22 <Zakim> +Luca.a
Zakim IRC Bot: +Luca.a ←
15:07:22 <pchampin> last week minutes
last week minutes ←
15:07:28 <Zakim> +zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2 ←
15:07:47 <pchampin> RESOLUTION: minutes accepted
RESOLVED: minutes accepted ←
15:07:53 <mischat> zakim, who is making noise?
Mischa Tuffield: zakim, who is making noise? ←
15:08:03 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
15:08:03 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: zwu2 should now be muted ←
15:08:04 <Zakim> mischat, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Luca.a (47%), +31.20.598.aaaa (76%), +43.512.507.aabb (4%)
Zakim IRC Bot: mischat, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Luca.a (47%), +31.20.598.aaaa (76%), +43.512.507.aabb (4%) ←
15:08:11 <gavin> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-03-30
Gavin Carothers: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-03-30 ←
15:08:15 <mischat> zakim, mute Luca.a
Mischa Tuffield: zakim, mute Luca.a ←
15:08:15 <Zakim> Luca.a should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Luca.a should now be muted ←
15:08:17 <mischat> sorry
Mischa Tuffield: sorry ←
15:08:34 <pchampin> subtopic: open action items
15:08:49 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TriplestoreRDFSupport
Mischa Tuffield: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TriplestoreRDFSupport ←
15:09:05 <pchampin> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open ←
15:09:11 <Zakim> +??P8
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P8 ←
15:09:21 <gavin> Most support SPARQL JSON results
Gavin Carothers: Most support SPARQL JSON results ←
15:09:40 <ww> zakim, who is on the phone?
William Waites: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
15:09:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see FabGandon, +31.20.598.aaaa, AndyS1, Sandro, gavinc, mbrunati, LeeF, Peter_Patel-Schneider, [Garlik], OlivierCorby, hsbauer, +43.512.507.aabb, cygri, Souri_,
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see FabGandon, +31.20.598.aaaa, AndyS1, Sandro, gavinc, mbrunati, LeeF, Peter_Patel-Schneider, [Garlik], OlivierCorby, hsbauer, +43.512.507.aabb, cygri, Souri_, ←
15:09:43 <Zakim> ... AlexHall, PatH, Luca, Luca.a (muted), zwu2 (muted), ??P8
Zakim IRC Bot: ... AlexHall, PatH, Luca, Luca.a (muted), zwu2 (muted), ??P8 ←
15:09:44 <Zakim> [Garlik] has SteveH, mischat
Zakim IRC Bot: [Garlik] has SteveH, mischat ←
15:09:45 <pchampin> drop action-6
15:09:49 <gavin> I'm unware of any that support anything else (other then Talis)
Gavin Carothers: I'm unware of any that support anything else (other then Talis) ←
15:09:53 <sandro> close action-6
Sandro Hawke: close ACTION-6 ←
15:09:53 <trackbot> ACTION-6 Provide use case for graphs closed
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-6 Provide use case for graphs closed ←
15:09:56 <ww> zakim, ??P8 is me
William Waites: zakim, ??P8 is me ←
15:09:56 <Zakim> +ww; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +ww; got it ←
15:09:58 <trackbot> ACTION-6 Provide use case for graphs notes added
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-6 Provide use case for graphs notes added ←
15:10:01 <pchampin> close action-6
15:10:01 <trackbot> ACTION-6 Provide use case for graphs closed
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-6 Provide use case for graphs closed ←
15:10:02 <ww> zakim, mute me
William Waites: zakim, mute me ←
15:10:02 <Zakim> ww should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: ww should now be muted ←
15:10:15 <mischat> gavin: i wasn't interested in SPARQL result formats. I was only interested in RDF imports and RDF serialisation outputted via the CONSTRUCT verb
Gavin Carothers: i wasn't interested in SPARQL result formats. I was only interested in RDF imports and RDF serialisation outputted via the CONSTRUCT verb [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ] ←
15:10:17 <trackbot> ACTION-19 Make a survey on what serializations triple stores use in the wild notes added
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-19 Make a survey on what serializations triple stores use in the wild notes added ←
15:10:33 <mischat> zwu2: can you have a look at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TriplestoreRDFSupport and could you update the Oracle support
Zhe Wu: can you have a look at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TriplestoreRDFSupport and could you update the Oracle support [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ] ←
15:10:33 <pchampin> close action-19
15:10:33 <trackbot> ACTION-19 Make a survey on what serializations triple stores use in the wild closed
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-19 Make a survey on what serializations triple stores use in the wild closed ←
15:10:37 <AndyS1> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/N-Triples-Format
Andy Seaborne: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/N-Triples-Format ←
15:10:50 <AZ> \me don't know who I am on the phone
Antoine Zimmermann: \me don't know who I am on the phone ←
15:10:52 <pchampin> guus: thomas is not here, so action-20 is left pending
Guus Schreiber: thomas is not here, so ACTION-20 is left pending ←
15:11:05 <pchampin> close action-24
15:11:05 <trackbot> ACTION-24 Collect issues and write a proposal standardizing N-Triples. closed
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-24 Collect issues and write a proposal standardizing N-Triples. closed ←
15:11:21 <pchampin> topic: F2F1
15:11:36 <pchampin> guus: an agenda has been posted on the mailing list
Guus Schreiber: an agenda has been posted on the mailing list ←
15:12:02 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1#Agenda
Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1#Agenda ←
15:12:04 <pfps> q+
15:12:18 <pchampin> ... it has been suggested to shift the schedule later
... it has been suggested to shift the schedule later ←
15:12:24 <pchampin> ... to make it easier for remote participants
... to make it easier for remote participants ←
15:12:38 <Zakim> +Luca.a
Zakim IRC Bot: +Luca.a ←
15:12:51 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is talking? ←
15:12:57 <AZ> Zakim, +Luca.a is me
Antoine Zimmermann: Zakim, +Luca.a is me ←
15:12:57 <Zakim> sorry, AZ, I do not recognize a party named '+Luca.a'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, AZ, I do not recognize a party named '+Luca.a' ←
15:13:01 <AZ> Zakim, Luca.a is me
Antoine Zimmermann: Zakim, Luca.a is me ←
15:13:01 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ; got it ←
15:13:04 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: +31.20.598.aaaa (3%), +43.512.507.aabb (4%)
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: +31.20.598.aaaa (3%), +43.512.507.aabb (4%) ←
15:13:08 <AZ> Zakim, mute me
Antoine Zimmermann: Zakim, mute me ←
15:13:08 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: AZ should now be muted ←
15:13:48 <pchampin> ... We could move it 30minutes later on the first day.
... We could move it 30minutes later on the first day. ←
15:14:07 <pfps> q+
15:14:14 <pchampin> ... and 1h later on the second day.
... and 1h later on the second day. ←
15:14:17 <sandro> PROPOSED: Move Day-1 agenda 30 minutes later, for people in other time zones, and Day-2 60 minutes later. So business starts at 10am.
PROPOSED: Move Day-1 agenda 30 minutes later, for people in other time zones, and Day-2 60 minutes later. So business starts at 10am. ←
15:14:42 <pchampin> cygri: I have a plane, so 1h later is max for me
Richard Cyganiak: I have a plane, so 1h later is max for me ←
15:15:01 <pchampin> pfps: I also have a train on the evening
Peter Patel-Schneider: I also have a train on the evening ←
15:15:31 <pchampin> ... As the schedule has been announced, I think we should not change the schedule, at least on the 2nd day.
... As the schedule has been announced, I think we should not change the schedule, at least on the 2nd day. ←
15:15:32 <ww> as remote participant, later is inconvenient for me, but i don't strongly object, defer to consensus
William Waites: as remote participant, later is inconvenient for me, but i don't strongly object, defer to consensus ←
15:15:52 <sandro> sandro: let's put the breakouts first, since remote participation probable wont work....
Sandro Hawke: let's put the breakouts first, since remote participation probable wont work.... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:16:03 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1#Agenda
Mischa Tuffield: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1#Agenda ←
15:16:07 <pfps> q-
15:16:10 <pchampin> guus: by moving the breakup, we can make it more convenient
Guus Schreiber: by moving the breakout, we can make it more convenient ←
15:16:21 <gavin> UTC+2
Gavin Carothers: UTC+2 ←
15:16:26 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1#Agenda
Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1#Agenda ←
15:16:45 <gavin> UTC+2, GMT changes with BST ;)
Gavin Carothers: UTC+2, GMT changes with BST ;) ←
15:17:16 <gavin> mmm... midnight telecon
Gavin Carothers: mmm... midnight telecon ←
15:17:20 <pchampin> guus: any objections to switch breakout and cleaning sessions on the 2nd day?
Guus Schreiber: any objections to switch breakout and cleaning sessions on the 2nd day? ←
15:17:33 <pchampin> s/breakup/breakout/
15:18:05 <mbrunati> .)
Matteo Brunati: .) ←
15:18:06 <pchampin> ... or we still have the option of making the 2nd day only 30 minutes later
... or we still have the option of making the 2nd day only 30 minutes later ←
15:18:12 <sandro> Guus: Day 2 goes until 5pm, and I'll delay the first day 30 mins.
Guus Schreiber: Day 2 goes until 5pm, and I'll delay the first day 30 mins. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:18:15 <LeeF> thank you, Guus.
Lee Feigenbaum: thank you, Guus. ←
15:18:25 <hsbauer> q+
Scott Bauer: q+ ←
15:19:04 <pchampin> guus: Ivan is not here, we have no further detail about the phone bridge
Guus Schreiber: Ivan is not here, we have no further detail about the phone bridge ←
15:19:19 <mbrunati> at cwi, any suggestion where to go exactly?
Matteo Brunati: at cwi, any suggestion where to go exactly? ←
15:19:36 <pchampin> sandro: I'll try to setup a video, so that remote participants can see the presents
Sandro Hawke: I'll try to setup a video, so that remote participants can see the presents ←
15:19:40 <hsbauer> q-
Scott Bauer: q- ←
15:19:41 <pchampin> ... bandwidth permitting
... bandwidth permitting ←
15:20:23 <pchampin> guus: normally the breakout sessions wil have no remote participants
Guus Schreiber: normally the breakout sessions wil have no remote participants ←
15:20:44 <pchampin> ... but I will see if we can get a 2nd speaker phone
... but I will see if we can get a 2nd speaker phone ←
15:21:21 <sandro> pathayes
Sandro Hawke: pathayes ←
15:21:36 <LeeF> PatHayes +1000
Lee Feigenbaum: PatHayes +1000 ←
15:21:42 <zwu2> very considerate :)
15:21:52 <pchampin> pathayes: it is difficult for remote participants to actually participate
Patrick Hayes: it is difficult for remote participants to actually participate ←
15:22:19 <pchampin> ... we would need some "phone scribe" to ensure that they can
... we would need some "phone scribe" to ensure that they can ←
15:22:43 <pchampin> topic: graph task force
15:22:51 <pchampin> guus: a number of issues have been raised
Guus Schreiber: a number of issues have been raised ←
15:23:18 <pchampin> ... I propose we have a short discussion about each of them.
... I propose we have a short discussion about each of them. ←
15:23:43 <sandro> ( Pat, I like this idea of someone who is charged with representing the remote participants. I think their title should be "The Avatar." :-)
Sandro Hawke: ( Pat, I like this idea of someone who is charged with representing the remote participants. I think their title should be "The Avatar." :-) ←
15:23:44 <pchampin> ... Thanks to Richard for accepting to do a summary for the F2F.
... Thanks to Richard for accepting to do a summary for the F2F. ←
15:23:52 <pchampin> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/raised
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/raised ←
15:24:34 <pchampin> issue-5 is about defining a datatype for graph literals
ISSUE-5 is about defining a datatype for graph literals ←
15:25:01 <pchampin> sandro: N3 uses the {} to describe a g-snap
Sandro Hawke: N3 uses the {} to describe a g-snap ←
15:25:08 <ww> q+
William Waites: q+ ←
15:25:18 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
15:25:23 <pchampin> ... it could be seen as a special literal, with a special datatype
... it could be seen as a special literal, with a special datatype ←
15:25:35 <pchampin> ... and its own lexical/value spaces
... and its own lexical/value spaces ←
15:25:45 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
15:25:53 <pchampin> ... The issue is: is this valuable? Do we want to keep that?
... The issue is: is this valuable? Do we want to keep that? ←
15:25:53 <ww> zakim, unmute me
William Waites: zakim, unmute me ←
15:25:53 <Zakim> ww should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: ww should no longer be muted ←
15:26:26 <pchampin> ww: if we make datatypes like that, how would that affect blank node scoping rules?
William Waites: if we make datatypes like that, how would that affect blank node scoping rules? ←
15:26:45 <pchampin> ... (even if those rules are not completely explicit)
... (even if those rules are not completely explicit) ←
15:27:13 <pchampin> ... if a quoted graph is a literal, what happens to the bnodes it shares with the enclosing graph
... if a quoted graph is a literal, what happens to the bnodes it shares with the enclosing graph ←
15:27:16 <ww> zakim, mute me
William Waites: zakim, mute me ←
15:27:16 <Zakim> ww should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: ww should now be muted ←
15:27:20 <pchampin> sandro: if they are considered as literal,
Sandro Hawke: if they are considered as literal, ←
15:27:23 <AndyS1> q+ to ask about N3 graphs and variables (? log:semantics)
Andy Seaborne: q+ to ask about N3 graphs and variables (? log:semantics) ←
15:27:25 <pchampin> ... there would be no sharing at all
... there would be no sharing at all ←
15:27:38 <Guus> ack ww
Guus Schreiber: ack ww ←
15:27:44 <pchampin> cygri: I'm not sure it is particularly useful,
Richard Cyganiak: I'm not sure it is particularly useful, ←
15:27:48 <ww> zakim, mute me
William Waites: zakim, mute me ←
15:27:48 <Zakim> ww should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: ww should now be muted ←
15:27:56 <Guus> ack cygri
Guus Schreiber: ack cygri ←
15:28:23 <pchampin> ... maybe this could be part of a larger solution to a larger problem?
... maybe this could be part of a larger solution to a larger problem? ←
15:28:25 <sandro> ( cygri sounds like he's in an underwater cavern )
Sandro Hawke: ( cygri sounds like he's in an underwater cavern ) ←
15:28:40 <Guus> ack AndyS
Guus Schreiber: ack AndyS ←
15:28:40 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask about N3 graphs and variables (? log:semantics)
Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to ask about N3 graphs and variables (? log:semantics) ←
15:28:56 <pchampin> sandro: not a solution for the moment, just something we should keep in mind
Sandro Hawke: not a solution for the moment, just something we should keep in mind ←
15:29:06 <cygri> (sandro, it's a hallway with really bad acoustics)
Richard Cyganiak: (sandro, it's a hallway with really bad acoustics) ←
15:29:07 <AndyS1> ack me
Andy Seaborne: ack me ←
15:29:35 <pchampin> andy: are you implying to also keep variables and more things from N3?
Andy Seaborne: are you implying to also keep variables and more things from N3? ←
15:29:41 <sandro> sandro: I was really just suggesting a quick and easy way to get SOME of what N3 gives us, using datatype for graph literals.
Sandro Hawke: I was really just suggesting a quick and easy way to get SOME of what N3 gives us, using datatype for graph literals. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:29:54 <cygri> ISSUE-14?
15:29:54 <trackbot> ISSUE-14 -- What is a named graph and what should we call it? -- raised
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-14 -- What is a named graph and what should we call it? -- raised ←
15:29:54 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/14
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/14 ←
15:29:58 <PatH> Call it "named graph" ?
Patrick Hayes: Call it "named graph" ? ←
15:30:03 <gavin> +1 ;)
Gavin Carothers: +1 ;) ←
15:30:11 <AZ> +1
Antoine Zimmermann: +1 ←
15:30:12 <pchampin> sandro: the idea is not to import those more complicated things
Sandro Hawke: the idea is not to import those more complicated things ←
15:30:34 <sandro> Call it a Name-Graph-Binding.
Sandro Hawke: Call it a Name-Graph-Binding. ←
15:30:44 <cygri> g-pair?
Richard Cyganiak: g-pair? ←
15:31:03 <PatH> They have been called 'named graphs' for about a decade now. Why change anything?
Patrick Hayes: They have been called 'named graphs' for about a decade now. Why change anything? ←
15:31:07 <gavin> SPARQL already refers to it as Named Graphs
Gavin Carothers: SPARQL already refers to it as Named Graphs ←
15:31:33 <pchampin> sandro: find the term 'named graph' confusing, as for me graph means g-snap
Sandro Hawke: find the term 'named graph' confusing, as for me graph means g-snap ←
15:32:01 <PatH> named numbers... Pi, root-2, ...
Patrick Hayes: named numbers... Pi, root-2, ... ←
15:32:25 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
15:32:36 <pchampin> sandro: yes, mathematical graphs like numbers can have names
Sandro Hawke: yes, mathematical graphs like numbers can have names ←
15:33:12 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
15:33:16 <pchampin> ... but it in the case of named graph, it seems to me that we want to name the binding
... but it in the case of named graph, it seems to me that we want to name the binding ←
15:33:30 <pchampin> ... i.e. the graph bound to the name can change
... i.e. the graph bound to the name can change ←
15:33:35 <ww> i think i understand (named) graphs in a similar way to sandro
William Waites: i think i understand (named) graphs in a similar way to sandro ←
15:33:41 <sandro> "Named G-Box"
Sandro Hawke: "Named G-Box" ←
15:33:43 <Guus> ack cygri
Guus Schreiber: ack cygri ←
15:33:53 <pchampin> PatH: in the original proposal, it was indeed graphs that were named
Patrick Hayes: in the original proposal, it was indeed graphs that were named ←
15:34:11 <PatH> named <whatever we decide to call g-boxes>
Patrick Hayes: named <whatever we decide to call g-boxes> ←
15:34:13 <pchampin> ... but you suggest that in practice, the *g-box* are named?
... but you suggest that in practice, the *g-box* are named? ←
15:34:16 <pchampin> sandro: yes
Sandro Hawke: yes ←
15:34:33 <pchampin> cygri: you are assuming a particular proposal where the g-box are named
Richard Cyganiak: you are assuming a particular proposal where the g-box are named ←
15:34:33 <PatH> <which I really sincerely hope will not be "g-box">
Patrick Hayes: <which I really sincerely hope will not be "g-box"> ←
15:34:43 <pchampin> ... in that case, "named graph" does not make much sense
... in that case, "named graph" does not make much sense ←
15:35:22 <pchampin> ... In SPARL, there are two notions:
... In SPARL, there are two notions: ←
15:35:29 <pchampin> ... dataset: a set of g-snaps
... dataset: a set of g-snaps ←
15:35:42 <cygri> graph store
Richard Cyganiak: graph store ←
15:35:51 <pchampin> graph store: a set of g-boxes
graph store: a set of g-boxes ←
15:35:53 <cygri> (sorry for poor acoustics)
Richard Cyganiak: (sorry for poor acoustics) ←
15:36:12 <pchampin> guus: do we need a notion of named g-snaps ?
Guus Schreiber: do we need a notion of named g-snaps ? ←
15:36:17 <gavin> +q
Gavin Carothers: +q ←
15:36:43 <PatH> I think we might need the idea of a named g-snap, yes. Need to think about this more.
Patrick Hayes: I think we might need the idea of a named g-snap, yes. Need to think about this more. ←
15:36:48 <LeeF> In Anzo, we use the term "named graph' for named g-box, despite the linguistic imprecision
Lee Feigenbaum: In Anzo, we use the term "named graph' for named g-box, despite the linguistic imprecision ←
15:36:48 <AndyS1> dataset can (often, does) indirect -- query over the value (g-snap)
Andy Seaborne: dataset can (often, does) indirect -- query over the value (g-snap) ←
15:36:58 <pchampin> sandro: I have never seen anyone with a good use case for named g-snap
Sandro Hawke: I have never seen anyone with a good use case for named g-snap ←
15:37:04 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
15:37:33 <mischat> i hope that whatever happens here can we make sure that we align with SPARQL
Mischa Tuffield: i hope that whatever happens here can we make sure that we align with SPARQL ←
15:37:33 <pchampin> guus: most use cases are about provenance, which is about naming g-box
Guus Schreiber: most use cases are about provenance, which is about naming g-box ←
15:37:38 <PatH> We can always think of a g-snap as a 'fixed' g-box. But then we would need to be able to clearly say that it is 'fixed' and what this means.
Patrick Hayes: We can always think of a g-snap as a 'fixed' g-box. But then we would need to be able to clearly say that it is 'fixed' and what this means. ←
15:37:41 <pchampin> ... or am I over-interpreting?
... or am I over-interpreting? ←
15:38:05 <AndyS1> +1 to PatH
Andy Seaborne: +1 to PatH ←
15:38:22 <ww> i tend to think that provenance actually has more to do with g-snaps
William Waites: i tend to think that provenance actually has more to do with g-snaps ←
15:39:49 <pchampin> PatH: Naming of g-snaps is just naming of read-only r-boxes
Patrick Hayes: Naming of g-snaps is just naming of read-only r-boxes ←
15:39:51 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
15:39:51 <ww> +1
William Waites: +1 ←
15:40:11 <sandro> q+ to talk about explicit metadata on gboxes & time
Sandro Hawke: q+ to talk about explicit metadata on gboxes & time ←
15:40:55 <pchampin> gavin: People seem to keep naming mutable g-boxes, not immutable g-boxes.
Gavin Carothers: People seem to keep naming mutable g-boxes, not immutable g-boxes. ←
15:41:00 <cygri> q-
Richard Cyganiak: q- ←
15:41:06 <LeeF> ack gavin
Lee Feigenbaum: ack gavin ←
15:41:10 <cygri> (too noisy here)
Richard Cyganiak: (too noisy here) ←
15:41:15 <PatH> Point well taken. I agree. Maybe we should leave this matter to the wide world to sort out.
Patrick Hayes: Point well taken. I agree. Maybe we should leave this matter to the wide world to sort out. ←
15:41:28 <zwu2> +1
15:41:42 <pchampin> gavin: it could be useful to truy to name g-snaps, but I don't think anybody ever tried to do that
Gavin Carothers: it could be useful to truy to name g-snaps, but I don't think anybody ever tried to do that ←
15:42:10 <cygri> i wanted to say: in sparql it's just g-snaps. sparql says nothing about what the named graph uri identifies. it's just a data structure for having multiple graphs. that's sufficient for many use cases
Richard Cyganiak: i wanted to say: in sparql it's just g-snaps. sparql says nothing about what the named graph uri identifies. it's just a data structure for having multiple graphs. that's sufficient for many use cases ←
15:42:12 <PatH> That was gavin's point about nobody having implemented this.
Patrick Hayes: That was gavin's point about nobody having implemented this. ←
15:42:15 <pchampin> sandro: I like the idea of naming a g-box that does not change
Sandro Hawke: I like the idea of naming a g-box that does not change ←
15:42:42 <pchampin> ... but it is interesting also to talk about a g-box at a particulat instant in time
... but it is interesting also to talk about a g-box at a particulat instant in time ←
15:42:48 <PatH> If we can say <box>is immutable in RDF< then a box can say that it itself is immutable.
Patrick Hayes: If we can say <box>is immutable in RDF< then a box can say that it itself is immutable. ←
15:43:21 <sandro> <box> rdf:type eg:ImmutableGBox
Sandro Hawke: <box> rdf:type eg:ImmutableGBox ←
15:43:27 <FabGandon> +1
Fabien Gandon: +1 ←
15:43:29 <pchampin> issue-15?
15:43:29 <trackbot> ISSUE-15 -- What is the relationship between the IRI and the triples in a dataset/quad-syntax/etc -- raised
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-15 -- What is the relationship between the IRI and the triples in a dataset/quad-syntax/etc -- raised ←
15:43:29 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/15
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/15 ←
15:43:58 <pchampin> guus: this issue has no owner
Guus Schreiber: this issue has no owner ←
15:44:04 <pchampin> sandro: must be something I typed in the IRC
Sandro Hawke: must be something I typed in the IRC ←
15:44:49 <pchampin> ... In several previous proposal, there is no explicit relationship between the IRI and the triples
... In several previous proposal, there is no explicit relationship between the IRI and the triples ←
15:45:04 <pchampin> ... In N3 there is a relationship, usually owl:sameAs
... In N3 there is a relationship, usually owl:sameAs ←
15:45:06 <PatH> Isnt this the same issue we were just talking about?
Patrick Hayes: Isnt this the same issue we were just talking about? ←
15:45:19 <PatH> OK
Patrick Hayes: OK ←
15:45:19 <pchampin> pchampin: @PathH yes, it seems to me
Pierre-Antoine Champin: @PathH yes, it seems to me ←
15:45:33 <pchampin> sandro: yes, they are related
Sandro Hawke: yes, they are related ←
15:45:38 <PatH> OK to leave them separate issues.
Patrick Hayes: OK to leave them separate issues. ←
15:45:42 <ww> trig == n3 w/ implied owl:sameAs (and no nesting)
William Waites: trig == n3 w/ implied owl:sameAs (and no nesting) ←
15:45:51 <cygri> ACTION: richard to write up the different options re ISSUE-15
ACTION: richard to write up the different options re ISSUE-15 ←
15:45:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-25 - Write up the different options re ISSUE-15 [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2011-04-13].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-25 - Write up the different options re ISSUE-15 [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2011-04-13]. ←
15:46:21 <pchampin> guus: so we should open those issues, any one objecting?
Guus Schreiber: so we should open those issues, any one objecting? ←
15:46:40 <pchampin> issue-17?
15:46:40 <trackbot> ISSUE-17 -- How are RDF datasets to be merged? -- raised
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-17 -- How are RDF datasets to be merged? -- raised ←
15:46:40 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/17
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/17 ←
15:46:52 <pchampin> guus: david on the call?
Guus Schreiber: david on the call? ←
15:48:07 <pchampin> pfps: we need to fix a problem with the SPARQL definition, sent some comment to the mailing list
Peter Patel-Schneider: we need to fix a problem with the SPARQL definition, sent some comment to the mailing list ←
15:49:12 <LeeF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Apr/0077.html and peter's reply at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Apr/0078.html
Lee Feigenbaum: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Apr/0077.html and peter's reply at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Apr/0078.html ←
15:49:25 <PatH> Why is this our business? Surely the notion of RDF Store belongs to SPARQL , no?
Patrick Hayes: Why is this our business? Surely the notion of RDF Store belongs to SPARQL , no? ←
15:49:39 <pchampin> pchampin: +1 PatH
Pierre-Antoine Champin: +1 PatH ←
15:50:08 <pfps> SPARQL has a definition of the merge of RDF datasets. This is closely related to named graphs, which we are supposed to be dealing with.
Peter Patel-Schneider: SPARQL has a definition of the merge of RDF datasets. This is closely related to named graphs, which we are supposed to be dealing with. ←
15:50:26 <PatH> The notion of 'default' for example isnt in the RDF specs anywhere.
Patrick Hayes: The notion of 'default' for example isnt in the RDF specs anywhere. ←
15:50:29 <Zakim> - +43.512.507.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: - +43.512.507.aabb ←
15:50:45 <AndyS1> I see comment, but no proposal for change. The editor will address the comment.
Andy Seaborne: I see comment, but no proposal for change. The editor will address the comment. ←
15:51:33 <pfps> I was trying to not prejudice any solution (by not providing my own). I pointed out that the "defintion" allows multiple answers.
Peter Patel-Schneider: I was trying to not prejudice any solution (by not providing my own). I pointed out that the "defintion" allows multiple answers. ←
15:51:35 <PatH> On the face of it, the definition in the emails does not make sense, since it presumes that one name can name two different graphs.
Patrick Hayes: On the face of it, the definition in the emails does not make sense, since it presumes that one name can name two different graphs. ←
15:52:10 <cygri> PatH: that's why i'd like to treat them as merely (URI, g-snap) pairs
Patrick Hayes: that's why i'd like to treat them as merely (URI, g-snap) pairs [ Scribe Assist by Richard Cyganiak ] ←
15:52:10 <PatH> Which if it happens should be an error condition, seems to me.
Patrick Hayes: Which if it happens should be an error condition, seems to me. ←
15:52:23 <PatH> OK
Patrick Hayes: OK ←
15:52:45 <pchampin> open issue-17
15:52:53 <AndyS1> graphs are closed descriptions?
Andy Seaborne: graphs are closed descriptions? ←
15:52:55 <pchampin> issue-18?
15:52:55 <trackbot> ISSUE-18 -- How do we parse "18." in Turtle? -- raised
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-18 -- How do we parse "18." in Turtle? -- raised ←
15:52:55 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/18
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/18 ←
15:53:17 <ww> q+
William Waites: q+ ←
15:53:32 <ww> zakim, unmute me
William Waites: zakim, unmute me ←
15:53:32 <Zakim> ww should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: ww should no longer be muted ←
15:54:01 <cygri> sandro, would you like to mention bnode skolemization here?�
Richard Cyganiak: sandro, would you like to mention bnode skolemization here?� ←
15:54:03 <AlexHall> PatH, perhaps the same graph is named in both those datasets with competing assertions as to the contents of that graph?
Alex Hall: PatH, perhaps the same graph is named in both those datasets with competing assertions as to the contents of that graph? ←
15:54:36 <AZ> issue 21
Antoine Zimmermann: ISSUE-21 ←
15:54:43 <cygri> ISSUE-21?
15:54:43 <trackbot> ISSUE-21 -- Can Node-IDs be shared between parts of a quad/multigraph format? -- raised
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-21 -- Can Node-IDs be shared between parts of a quad/multigraph format? -- raised ←
15:54:43 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/21
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/21 ←
15:55:26 <Souri> q+
Souripriya Das: q+ ←
15:55:33 <cygri> i think i'm +1 with ww
Richard Cyganiak: i think i'm +1 with ww ←
15:55:38 <PatH> +1 sandro
Patrick Hayes: +1 sandro ←
15:55:40 <gavin> +q
Gavin Carothers: +q ←
15:55:43 <gavin> -q
Gavin Carothers: -q ←
15:55:47 <ww> zakim, mute me
William Waites: zakim, mute me ←
15:55:47 <Zakim> ww should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: ww should now be muted ←
15:55:51 <Guus> ack sandro
Guus Schreiber: ack sandro ←
15:55:51 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to talk about explicit metadata on gboxes & time
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to talk about explicit metadata on gboxes & time ←
15:55:51 <pchampin> ww: what happens if we take two files containing triples, and merge them in a format supporting quads?
William Waites: what happens if we take two files containing triples, and merge them in a format supporting quads? ←
15:56:00 <pchampin> sandro: Since you have to do bnode renaming in merging turtle, why not for quads?
Sandro Hawke: Since you have to do bnode renaming in merging turtle, why not for quads? ←
15:56:00 <AndyS1> merge is on g-snaps, not g-texts?
Andy Seaborne: merge is on g-snaps, not g-texts? ←
15:56:02 <Guus> ack ww
Guus Schreiber: ack ww ←
15:56:11 <ww> zakim, mute me
William Waites: zakim, mute me ←
15:56:11 <Zakim> ww should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: ww should now be muted ←
15:56:13 <Guus> ack Souri
Guus Schreiber: ack Souri ←
15:56:15 <pchampin> sandro: you should not be able to simply merge 2 ttl files. You should rename bnodes before.
Sandro Hawke: you should not be able to simply merge 2 ttl files. You should rename bnodes before. ←
15:56:41 <pchampin> souri: the notion of having the same bnode in two different graphs seems odd to me
Souripriya Das: the notion of having the same bnode in two different graphs seems odd to me ←
15:56:55 <AndyS1> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
15:56:55 <pchampin> sandro: I think bnodes are scoped to the document, not to the graph
Sandro Hawke: I think bnodes are scoped to the document, not to the graph ←
15:56:59 <PatH> Blank node *identifiers* are scoped according to conventions defined by the particular format.
Patrick Hayes: Blank node *identifiers* are scoped according to conventions defined by the particular format. ←
15:57:11 <pchampin> ... which is convenient for the moment as our documents contain only one graph
... which is convenient for the moment as our documents contain only one graph ←
15:57:16 <PatH> Blank nodes should be unique to a 'grpah' (= g-box)
Patrick Hayes: Blank nodes should be unique to a 'grpah' (= g-box) ←
15:57:23 <Souri> q+
Souripriya Das: q+ ←
15:57:27 <pchampin> ... but if a document was to contain several graphs, it would happen.
... but if a document was to contain several graphs, it would happen. ←
15:57:52 <pchampin> ... Consider a subgraph of a given graph; they can obviously share bnodes.
... Consider a subgraph of a given graph; they can obviously share bnodes. ←
15:58:00 <ww> blank node scope comes up in several places...
William Waites: blank node scope comes up in several places... ←
15:58:00 <LeeF> It's not clear to me if we're discussing the scope of blank nodes, the mathematical objects, or the scope of blank node identifiers, the way of writing down the things in g-texts, or both
Lee Feigenbaum: It's not clear to me if we're discussing the scope of blank nodes, the mathematical objects, or the scope of blank node identifiers, the way of writing down the things in g-texts, or both ←
15:58:12 <pchampin> guus: isn't that another issue?
Guus Schreiber: isn't that another issue? ←
15:58:31 <AndyS1> q-
Andy Seaborne: q- ←
15:58:32 <ww> +1 sandro's correction of loose language - bnode identifiers are what have scope
William Waites: +1 sandro's correction of loose language - bnode identifiers are what have scope ←
15:58:53 <PatH> +1 sandro.
Patrick Hayes: +1 sandro. ←
15:59:12 <pchampin> souri: we are talking from a storing point of view
Souripriya Das: we are talking from a storing point of view ←
15:59:24 <AndyS1> Both - bnodes as variables have a scope but != bnode labels in a serialization
Andy Seaborne: Both - bnodes as variables have a scope but != bnode labels in a serialization ←
15:59:43 <pchampin> ... _:x boild down to prefixing x with the name of the graph
... _:x boild down to prefixing x with the name of the graph ←
16:00:30 <PatH> Lee; blank nodes dont have scope. They are gloablly unique. Bnode IDs have scope.
Patrick Hayes: Lee; blank nodes dont have scope. They are gloablly unique. Bnode IDs have scope. ←
16:00:42 <gavin> ... the blank node would -have- to be unique to a graph. Two graphs may exist on diffrent systems on the web, if you want their identity to be the same same USE A URI.
Gavin Carothers: ... the blank node would -have- to be unique to a graph. Two graphs may exist on diffrent systems on the web, if you want their identity to be the same same USE A URI. ←
16:00:59 <AndyS1> +1 to PatH's description
Andy Seaborne: +1 to PatH's description ←
16:01:22 <pchampin> sandro: some SPARQL endpoints, like 4store, have the default graph to be the union of all other stores
Sandro Hawke: some SPARQL endpoints, like 4store, have the default graph to be the union of all other stores ←
16:01:27 <PatH> I will try to add some text to clarify all this.
Patrick Hayes: I will try to add some text to clarify all this. ←
16:01:36 <Guus> propose to add Pat's description to Issue 21 description
Guus Schreiber: propose to add Pat's description to ISSUE-21 description ←
16:01:53 <Guus> thx Pat
Guus Schreiber: thx Pat ←
16:01:56 <Souri> q+
Souripriya Das: q+ ←
16:02:05 <SteveH> q+
Steve Harris: q+ ←
16:02:17 <pchampin> ... so how do we serialize this?
... so how do we serialize this? ←
16:02:17 <Guus> ack Souri
Guus Schreiber: ack Souri ←
16:02:27 <PatH> Souri, sandro, please CC me on any offline emails.
Patrick Hayes: Souri, sandro, please CC me on any offline emails. ←
16:02:45 <SteveH> q-
Steve Harris: q- ←
16:03:05 <Guus> pls no offline emails
Guus Schreiber: pls no offline emails ←
16:03:17 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
16:03:22 <pchampin> souri: we have to distinguish between _:x used in two different files
Souripriya Das: we have to distinguish between _:x used in two different files ←
16:03:40 <pchampin> ... bnodes are scoped to the graph
... bnodes are scoped to the graph ←
16:04:15 <pfps> It is possible for two RDF graphs to contain the "same" bnode, but the RDF semantics doesn't let you see any effects of this.
Peter Patel-Schneider: It is possible for two RDF graphs to contain the "same" bnode, but the RDF semantics doesn't let you see any effects of this. ←
16:04:16 <pchampin> action PatH to write an description of action-21
action PatH to write an description of ACTION-21 ←
16:04:16 <trackbot> Created ACTION-26 - Write an description of action-21 [on Patrick Hayes - due 2011-04-13].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-26 - Write an description of ACTION-21 [on Patrick Hayes - due 2011-04-13]. ←
16:04:41 <pchampin> issue-22?
16:04:41 <trackbot> ISSUE-22 -- Does multigraph syntax need to support empty graphs? -- raised
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-22 -- Does multigraph syntax need to support empty graphs? -- raised ←
16:04:41 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/22
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/22 ←
16:05:22 <pchampin> LeeF: a quad store can be naively seens as a big table with 4 columns
Lee Feigenbaum: a quad store can be naively seens as a big table with 4 columns ←
16:05:43 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
16:05:44 <pchampin> ... but this naive view does not allow to represent an empty graph
... but this naive view does not allow to represent an empty graph ←
16:06:09 <pchampin> ... so should serialization support that? Some serialization can (e.g. Trig)
... so should serialization support that? Some serialization can (e.g. Trig) ←
16:06:14 <gavin> +q
Gavin Carothers: +q ←
16:06:16 <PatH> Nah, its NIL is LISP. Yes, lets allow this.
Patrick Hayes: Nah, its NIL is LISP. Yes, lets allow this. ←
16:06:32 <PatH> +q
Patrick Hayes: +q ←
16:06:55 <AndyS1> When "named X" considered, becomes more relevant
Andy Seaborne: When "named X" considered, becomes more relevant ←
16:07:12 <pchampin> pfps: are we going to allow necessarily empty g-*?
Peter Patel-Schneider: are we going to allow necessarily empty g-*? ←
16:07:15 <PatH> BTW, in the RDF semantics, the empty graph is (a) unique and (b) always false.
Patrick Hayes: BTW, in the RDF semantics, the empty graph is (a) unique and (b) always false. ←
16:07:15 <sandro> q+ to answer peter
Sandro Hawke: q+ to answer peter ←
16:07:33 <cygri> guus, I just created ISSUE-23 to capture discussion i had with dave on the mailing list
Richard Cyganiak: guus, I just created ISSUE-23 to capture discussion i had with dave on the mailing list ←
16:07:41 <Guus> ack gavin
Guus Schreiber: ack gavin ←
16:08:10 <pfps> suppose you have a set of quads - how to you know that you have all the triples in a particular graph?
Peter Patel-Schneider: suppose you have a set of quads - how to you know that you have all the triples in a particular graph? ←
16:08:10 <pchampin> gavin: most document databases (e.g. mongodb) explicitly do not allow empty documents
Gavin Carothers: most document databases (e.g. mongodb) explicitly do not allow empty documents ←
16:08:24 <pchampin> ... an XML doc has to contain at least an element
... an XML doc has to contain at least an element ←
16:08:27 <Guus> ack PatH
Guus Schreiber: ack PatH ←
16:08:37 <LeeF> i'm not sure that's the same issue? i'll never know that, whether i'm writing down 0 triples or 100 triples
Lee Feigenbaum: i'm not sure that's the same issue? i'll never know that, whether i'm writing down 0 triples or 100 triples ←
16:08:41 <LeeF> right?
Lee Feigenbaum: right? ←
16:08:42 <pfps> to follow this on ... all the possible empty named graphs already exist in RDF
Peter Patel-Schneider: to follow this on ... all the possible empty named graphs already exist in RDF ←
16:09:04 <pchampin> PatH: I was going to vote for empty graph, mathematically more elegant
Patrick Hayes: I was going to vote for empty graph, mathematically more elegant ←
16:09:11 <ww> intuitively +1 to PatH
William Waites: intuitively +1 to PatH ←
16:09:12 <pchampin> ... they are useful limit cases
... they are useful limit cases ←
16:09:22 <mischat> zakim, who is making noise?
Mischa Tuffield: zakim, who is making noise? ←
16:09:24 <pchampin> pchampin: +1
16:09:27 <LeeF> FWIW, I was trying to lay out the issue as I understand it neutrally, I do have a strong opinion on how the issue should be resolved :)
Lee Feigenbaum: FWIW, I was trying to lay out the issue as I understand it neutrally, I do have a strong opinion on how the issue should be resolved :) ←
16:09:33 <Zakim> mischat, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (5%), Luca (66%)
Zakim IRC Bot: mischat, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (5%), Luca (66%) ←
16:09:40 <PatH> I think the morse code is agreeing with us.
Patrick Hayes: I think the morse code is agreeing with us. ←
16:09:43 <pchampin> sandro: most (all?) RDF syntax allow to convey the empty graph
Sandro Hawke: most (all?) RDF syntax allow to convey the empty graph ←
16:09:53 <pchampin> ... forbidding that would be a problem
... forbidding that would be a problem ←
16:09:59 <Zakim> -ww
Zakim IRC Bot: -ww ←
16:10:19 <pchampin> guus: position for the moment: allow empty graph unless there is a very good reason not too
Guus Schreiber: position for the moment: allow empty graph unless there is a very good reason not too ←
16:10:25 <sandro> zakim, mute luca
Sandro Hawke: zakim, mute luca ←
16:10:25 <Zakim> Luca should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Luca should now be muted ←
16:10:28 <Souri> the flip side is that managing graphs as first class entity creates additional complexity (like tables in an RDBMS)
Souripriya Das: the flip side is that managing graphs as first class entity creates additional complexity (like tables in an RDBMS) ←
16:10:32 <pchampin> ... but let's keep the issue open for the moment
... but let's keep the issue open for the moment ←
16:10:38 <cygri> ISSUE-23?
16:10:38 <trackbot> ISSUE-23 -- Does going from single-graph to multi-graph require new format and new media types? -- raised
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-23 -- Does going from single-graph to multi-graph require new format and new media types? -- raised ←
16:10:38 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/23
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/23 ←
16:11:36 <LeeF> Souri, SPARQL Update acknowledged that by trying to allow both sorts of stores likely behavior
Lee Feigenbaum: Souri, SPARQL Update acknowledged that by trying to allow both sorts of stores likely behavior ←
16:11:57 <cygri> LeeF, and I think that makes the SPARQL Update spec quite awkward
Richard Cyganiak: LeeF, and I think that makes the SPARQL Update spec quite awkward ←
16:12:10 <pchampin> sandro: I will open issue-23
Sandro Hawke: I will open ISSUE-23 ←
16:12:12 <LeeF> cygri, I don't necessarily disagree with that
Lee Feigenbaum: cygri, I don't necessarily disagree with that ←
16:12:25 <pchampin> topic: cleanup issues
16:12:37 <pchampin> guus: we have a face at the F2F to discuss them
Guus Schreiber: we have a face at the F2F to discuss them ←
16:12:37 <cygri> LeeF, as a matter of principle, I think “let's allow both” is rarely the right answer in a spec
Richard Cyganiak: LeeF, as a matter of principle, I think “let's allow both” is rarely the right answer in a spec ←
16:12:50 <LeeF> cygri, I also don't disagree with that
Lee Feigenbaum: cygri, I also don't disagree with that ←
16:12:54 <cygri> :-)
Richard Cyganiak: :-) ←
16:13:13 <pchampin> ... we need to make some progress on the issue about the "RDF Recommendation Set"
... we need to make some progress on the issue about the "RDF Recommendation Set" ←
16:13:24 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
16:13:34 <pchampin> ... and start thinking about editors for those documents
... and start thinking about editors for those documents ←
16:13:37 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: Agenda: q-
Sandro Hawke: sandro has changed the topic to: Agenda: q- ←
16:14:05 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider
Zakim IRC Bot: -Peter_Patel-Schneider ←
16:14:07 <zwu2> bye
16:14:10 <Zakim> -AlexHall
Zakim IRC Bot: -AlexHall ←
16:14:10 <cygri> thank you! bye!
Richard Cyganiak: thank you! bye! ←
16:14:13 <Zakim> -cygri
Zakim IRC Bot: -cygri ←
16:14:14 <Zakim> -PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: -PatH ←
16:14:14 <Zakim> -zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2 ←
16:14:16 <Zakim> -Souri_
Zakim IRC Bot: -Souri_ ←
16:14:17 <Zakim> -OlivierCorby
Zakim IRC Bot: -OlivierCorby ←
16:14:18 <Zakim> -[Garlik]
Zakim IRC Bot: -[Garlik] ←
16:14:19 <Zakim> -AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ ←
16:14:20 <Zakim> -Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro ←
16:14:22 <pchampin> RRSagent, draft minutes
RRSagent, draft minutes ←
16:14:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/06-rdf-wg-minutes.html pchampin
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/06-rdf-wg-minutes.html pchampin ←
16:14:24 <Zakim> -FabGandon
Zakim IRC Bot: -FabGandon ←
16:14:28 <Zakim> -gavinc
Zakim IRC Bot: -gavinc ←
16:14:35 <mbrunati> ok, bye
Matteo Brunati: ok, bye ←
16:14:40 <Zakim> -LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: -LeeF ←
16:14:43 <Zakim> -mbrunati
Zakim IRC Bot: -mbrunati ←
16:14:49 <Zakim> -AndyS1
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS1 ←
16:14:50 <Zakim> - +31.20.598.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: - +31.20.598.aaaa ←
16:15:29 <Zakim> -hsbauer
Zakim IRC Bot: -hsbauer ←
16:17:30 <sandro> I'm on irc, but not th ephone.
Sandro Hawke: I'm on irc, but not th ephone. ←
Formatted by CommonScribe
This revision (#1) generated 2011-04-06 17:03:53 UTC by 'sandro', comments: None