IRC log of rdf-wg on 2011-04-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:58:13 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:13 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/04/06-rdf-wg-irc
14:58:14 [danbri_]: regrets from me, am also in a meeting
14:58:15 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs world
14:58:15 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:17 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be 73394
14:58:17 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
14:58:18 [trackbot]: Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:58:18 [trackbot]: Date: 06 April 2011
14:58:23 [danbri_]: (though within earshot of guus)
14:58:24 [LeeF]: trackbot, this will be rdfwg
14:58:24 [trackbot]: Sorry, LeeF, I don't understand 'trackbot, this will be rdfwg'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
14:58:29 [LeeF]: zakim, this will be rdfwg
14:58:29 [Zakim]: ok, LeeF, I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM already started
14:58:33 [Zakim]: +??P24
14:58:36 [mischat_]: mischat_ has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:41 [AndyS1]: zakim, ??P24 is me
14:58:41 [Zakim]: +AndyS1; got it
14:58:41 [FabGandon]: zakim, who's on the phone?
14:58:42 [Zakim]: On the phone I see FabGandon, +31.20.598.aaaa, Tony, AndyS1
14:58:45 [Zakim]: +Sandro
14:58:47 [SteveH_]: SteveH_ has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:58 [LeeF]: zakim, code?
14:58:58 [Zakim]: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), LeeF
14:59:00 [Zakim]: +gavinc
14:59:15 [Zakim]: +??P17
14:59:20 [Zakim]: +LeeF
14:59:42 [Zakim]: +Peter_Patel-Schneider
14:59:46 [Zakim]: +??P7
14:59:48 [Zakim]: -Tony
14:59:54 [pfps]: pfps has joined #rdf-wg
14:59:57 [Zakim]: +OlivierCorby
15:00:13 [mbrunati]: zakim, ??P17 is me
15:00:13 [Zakim]: +mbrunati; got it
15:00:16 [cygri]: cygri has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:22 [Zakim]: +Tony
15:00:54 [Zakim]: + +43.512.507.aabb
15:01:00 [SteveH_]: Zakim, ??P7 is [Garlik]
15:01:00 [Zakim]: +[Garlik]; got it
15:01:06 [AZ]: AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:01:09 [SteveH]: Zakim, [Garlik] has SteveH and mischat
15:01:09 [Zakim]: +SteveH, mischat; got it
15:01:28 [Zakim]: +??P21
15:01:47 [Zakim]: +Souri_
15:02:03 [AlexHall]: AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
15:02:11 [Souri]: Souri has joined #rdf-wg
15:02:43 [Zakim]: +AlexHall
15:02:57 [pchampin]: pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
15:03:08 [cygri]: zakim, ??P21 is me
15:03:08 [Zakim]: +cygri; got it
15:03:20 [Zakim]: +PatH
15:03:29 [sandro]: pchampin, you're scheduled to scribe today....
15:03:31 [hsbauer]: I don't seem to be recognized on the call again: Scott Bauer
15:03:36 [pchampin]: yes
15:03:44 [pchampin]: struggling with zakim to dial in
15:03:52 [pchampin]: shouldn't take too long :-/
15:04:12 [sandro]: zakim, who is on the call?
15:04:12 [Zakim]: On the phone I see FabGandon, +31.20.598.aaaa, AndyS1, Sandro, gavinc, mbrunati, LeeF, Peter_Patel-Schneider, [Garlik], OlivierCorby, Tony, +43.512.507.aabb, cygri, Souri_,
15:04:15 [PatHayes]: I had a few snags with zakim today.
15:04:15 [Zakim]: ... AlexHall, PatH
15:04:15 [Zakim]: [Garlik] has SteveH, mischat
15:04:47 [Guus]: zakim, who is here?
15:04:49 [Zakim]: On the phone I see FabGandon, +31.20.598.aaaa, AndyS1, Sandro, gavinc, mbrunati, LeeF, Peter_Patel-Schneider, [Garlik], OlivierCorby, Tony, +43.512.507.aabb, cygri, Souri_,
15:04:51 [Zakim]: ... AlexHall, PatH
15:04:51 [Zakim]: [Garlik] has SteveH, mischat
15:04:53 [SteveH]: q-
15:05:00 [SteveH]: queue=
15:05:06 [sandro]: zakim, Tony is hsbauer
15:05:06 [Zakim]: +hsbauer; got it
15:05:12 [pchampin]: can you remind me the conference code?
15:05:12 [Guus]: q?
15:05:17 [hsbauer]: thanks
15:05:19 [pchampin]: rdfwg?
15:05:20 [sandro]: zakim, what is the code?
15:05:20 [Zakim]: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), sandro
15:05:32 [Zakim]: +Luca
15:05:33 [Guus]: 73394
15:05:50 [pchampin]: scribe: pchampin
15:07:01 [JFB]: Sorry I won't be able to be on the phone today: my phone's not working....
15:07:09 [pchampin]: topic: administrative
15:07:20 [pfps]: minutes look good
15:07:22 [Zakim]: +Luca.a
15:07:22 [pchampin]: last week minutes
15:07:28 [Zakim]: +zwu2
15:07:35 [m029206__]: m029206__ has joined #rdf-wg
15:07:43 [zwu2]: zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
15:07:47 [pchampin]: RESOLUTION: minutes accepted
15:07:53 [mischat]: zakim, who is making noise?
15:08:03 [zwu2]: zakim, mute me
15:08:03 [Zakim]: zwu2 should now be muted
15:08:04 [Zakim]: mischat, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Luca.a (47%), +31.20.598.aaaa (76%), +43.512.507.aabb (4%)
15:08:11 [gavin]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-03-30
15:08:15 [mischat]: zakim, mute Luca.a
15:08:15 [Zakim]: Luca.a should now be muted
15:08:17 [mischat]: sorry
15:08:27 [AZ]: AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:08:34 [pchampin]: topic: open action items
15:08:49 [mischat]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TriplestoreRDFSupport
15:09:05 [pchampin]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open
15:09:11 [Zakim]: +??P8
15:09:21 [gavin]: Most support SPARQL JSON results
15:09:29 [ww]: ww has joined #rdf-wg
15:09:40 [ww]: zakim, who is on the phone?
15:09:40 [Zakim]: On the phone I see FabGandon, +31.20.598.aaaa, AndyS1, Sandro, gavinc, mbrunati, LeeF, Peter_Patel-Schneider, [Garlik], OlivierCorby, hsbauer, +43.512.507.aabb, cygri, Souri_,
15:09:43 [Zakim]: ... AlexHall, PatH, Luca, Luca.a (muted), zwu2 (muted), ??P8
15:09:44 [Zakim]: [Garlik] has SteveH, mischat
15:09:45 [pchampin]: drop action-6
15:09:49 [gavin]: I'm unware of any that support anything else (other then Talis)
15:09:53 [sandro]: close action-6
15:09:53 [trackbot]: ACTION-6 Provide use case for graphs closed
15:09:56 [ww]: zakim, ??P8 is me
15:09:56 [Zakim]: +ww; got it
15:09:58 [pchampin]: action-6: dropped
15:09:58 [trackbot]: ACTION-6 Provide use case for graphs notes added
15:10:01 [pchampin]: close action-6
15:10:01 [trackbot]: ACTION-6 Provide use case for graphs closed
15:10:02 [ww]: zakim, mute me
15:10:02 [Zakim]: ww should now be muted
15:10:15 [mischat]: gavin: i wasn't interested in SPARQL result formats. I was only interested in RDF imports and RDF serialisation outputted via the CONSTRUCT verb
15:10:17 [pchampin]: action-19: done
15:10:17 [trackbot]: ACTION-19 Make a survey on what serializations triple stores use in the wild notes added
15:10:33 [mischat]: zwu2: can you have a look at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TriplestoreRDFSupport and could you update the Oracle support
15:10:33 [pchampin]: close action-19
15:10:33 [trackbot]: ACTION-19 Make a survey on what serializations triple stores use in the wild closed
15:10:37 [AndyS1]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/N-Triples-Format
15:10:50 [AZ]: \me don't know who I am on the phone
15:10:52 [pchampin]: guus: thomas is not here, so action-20 is left pending
15:11:05 [pchampin]: close action-24
15:11:05 [trackbot]: ACTION-24 Collect issues and write a proposal standardizing N-Triples. closed
15:11:21 [pchampin]: topic: F2F
15:11:36 [pchampin]: guus: an agenda has been posted on the mailing list
15:12:02 [sandro]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1#Agenda
15:12:04 [pfps]: q+
15:12:06 [dfensel6_]: dfensel6_ has joined #rdf-wg
15:12:13 [Zakim]: -Luca.a
15:12:18 [pchampin]: ... it has been suggested to shift the schedule later
15:12:24 [pchampin]: ... to make it easier for remote participants
15:12:38 [Zakim]: +Luca.a
15:12:51 [sandro]: zakim, who is talking?
15:12:57 [AZ]: Zakim, +Luca.a is me
15:12:57 [Zakim]: sorry, AZ, I do not recognize a party named '+Luca.a'
15:13:01 [AZ]: Zakim, Luca.a is me
15:13:01 [Zakim]: +AZ; got it
15:13:04 [Zakim]: sandro, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: +31.20.598.aaaa (3%), +43.512.507.aabb (4%)
15:13:08 [AZ]: Zakim, mute me
15:13:08 [Zakim]: AZ should now be muted
15:13:48 [pchampin]: ... We could move it 30minutes later on the first day.
15:14:07 [pfps]: q+
15:14:14 [pchampin]: ... and 1h later on the second day.
15:14:17 [sandro]: PROPOSED: Move Day-1 agenda 30 minutes later, for people in other time zones, and Day-2 60 minutes later. So business starts at 10am.
15:14:42 [pchampin]: cygri: I have a plane, so 1h later is max for me
15:15:01 [pchampin]: peter: I also have a train on the evening
15:15:31 [pchampin]: ... As the schedule has been announced, I think we should not change the schedule, at least on the 2nd day.
15:15:32 [ww]: as remote participant, later is inconvenient for me, but i don't strongly object, defer to consensus
15:15:52 [sandro]: sandro: let's put the breakouts first, since remote participation probable wont work....
15:16:03 [mischat]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1#Agenda
15:16:07 [pfps]: q-
15:16:10 [pchampin]: guus: by moving the breakup, we can make it more convenient
15:16:21 [gavin]: UTC+2
15:16:26 [sandro]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1#Agenda
15:16:45 [gavin]: UTC+2, GMT changes with BST ;)
15:17:16 [gavin]: mmm... midnight telecon
15:17:20 [pchampin]: guus: any objections to switch breakout and cleaning sessions on the 2nd day?
15:17:33 [pchampin]: s/breakup/breakout/
15:18:05 [mbrunati]: .)
15:18:06 [pchampin]: ... or we still have the option of making the 2nd day only 30 minutes later
15:18:12 [sandro]: Guus: Day 2 goes until 5pm, and I'll delay the first day 30 mins.
15:18:15 [LeeF]: thank you, Guus.
15:18:25 [hsbauer]: q+
15:19:04 [pchampin]: guus: Ivan is not here, we have no further detail about the phone bridge
15:19:19 [mbrunati]: at cwi, any suggestion where to go exactly?
15:19:36 [pchampin]: sandro: I'll try to setup a video, so that remote participants can see the presents
15:19:40 [hsbauer]: q-
15:19:41 [pchampin]: ... bandwidth permitting
15:20:23 [pchampin]: guus: normally the breakout sessions wil have no remote participants
15:20:44 [pchampin]: ... but I will see if we can get a 2nd speaker phone
15:21:21 [sandro]: pathayes
15:21:36 [LeeF]: PatHayes +1000
15:21:42 [zwu2]: very considerate :)
15:21:52 [pchampin]: pathayes: it is difficult for remote participants to actually participate
15:22:19 [pchampin]: ... we would need some "phone scribe" to ensure that they can
15:22:43 [pchampin]: topic: graph task force
15:22:51 [pchampin]: guus: a number of issues have been raised
15:23:05 [AZ]: AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:23:18 [pchampin]: ... I propose we have a short discussion about each of them.
15:23:43 [sandro]: ( Pat, I like this idea of someone who is charged with representing the remote participants. I think their title should be "The Avatar." :-)
15:23:44 [pchampin]: ... Thanks to Richard for accepting to do a summary for the F2F.
15:23:52 [pchampin]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/raised
15:24:34 [pchampin]: issue-5 is about defining a datatype for graph literals
15:25:01 [pchampin]: sandro: N3 uses the {} to describe a g-snap
15:25:08 [ww]: q+
15:25:18 [cygri]: q+
15:25:23 [pchampin]: ... it could be seen as a special literal, with a special datatype
15:25:35 [pchampin]: ... and its own lexical/value spaces
15:25:45 [Guus]: q?
15:25:53 [pchampin]: ... The issue is: is this valuable? Do we want to keep that?
15:25:53 [ww]: zakim, unmute me
15:25:53 [Zakim]: ww should no longer be muted
15:26:26 [pchampin]: ww: if we make datatypes like that, how would that affect blank node scoping rules?
15:26:45 [pchampin]: ... (even if those rules are not completely explicit)
15:27:13 [pchampin]: ... if a quoted graph is a literal, what happens to the bnodes it shares with the enclosing graph
15:27:16 [ww]: zakim, mute me
15:27:16 [Zakim]: ww should now be muted
15:27:20 [pchampin]: sandto: if they are considered as literal,
15:27:23 [AndyS1]: q+ to ask about N3 graphs and variables (? log:semantics)
15:27:25 [pchampin]: ... there would be no sharing at all
15:27:38 [Guus]: ack ww
15:27:44 [pchampin]: cygri: I'm not sure it is particularly useful,
15:27:48 [ww]: zakim, mute me
15:27:48 [Zakim]: ww should now be muted
15:27:56 [Guus]: ack cygri
15:28:23 [pchampin]: ... maybe this could be part of a larger solution to a larger problem?
15:28:25 [sandro]: ( cygri sounds like he's in an underwater cavern )
15:28:40 [Guus]: ack AndyS
15:28:40 [Zakim]: AndyS, you wanted to ask about N3 graphs and variables (? log:semantics)
15:28:56 [pchampin]: sandro: not a solution for the moment, just something we should keep in mind
15:29:04 [PatH]: PatH has joined #rdf-wg
15:29:06 [cygri]: (sandro, it's a hallway with really bad acoustics)
15:29:07 [AndyS1]: ack me
15:29:35 [pchampin]: andy: are you implying to also keep variables and more things from N3?
15:29:41 [sandro]: sandro: I was really just suggesting a quick and easy way to get SOME of what N3 gives us, using datatype for graph literals.
15:29:54 [cygri]: ISSUE-14?
15:29:54 [trackbot]: ISSUE-14 -- What is a named graph and what should we call it? -- raised
15:29:54 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/14
15:29:58 [PatH]: Call it "named graph" ?
15:30:03 [gavin]: +1 ;)
15:30:11 [AZ]: +1
15:30:12 [pchampin]: sandro: the idea is not to import those more complicated things
15:30:34 [sandro]: Call it a Name-Graph-Binding.
15:30:44 [cygri]: g-pair?
15:31:03 [PatH]: They have been called 'named graphs' for about a decade now. Why change anything?
15:31:07 [gavin]: SPARQL already refers to it as Named Graphs
15:31:33 [pchampin]: sandro: find the term 'named graph' confusing, as for me graph means g-snap
15:32:01 [PatH]: named numbers... Pi, root-2, ...
15:32:25 [Guus]: q?
15:32:36 [pchampin]: sandro: yes, mathematical graphs like numbers can have names
15:33:12 [cygri]: q+
15:33:16 [pchampin]: ... but it in the case of named graph, it seems to me that we want to name the binding
15:33:30 [pchampin]: ... i.e. the graph bound to the name can change
15:33:35 [ww]: i think i understand (named) graphs in a similar way to sandro
15:33:41 [sandro]: "Named G-Box"
15:33:43 [Guus]: ack cygri
15:33:53 [pchampin]: pathayes: in the original proposal, it was indeed graphs that were named
15:34:11 [PatH]: named <whatever we decide to call g-boxes>
15:34:13 [pchampin]: ... but you suggest that in practice, the *g-box* are named?
15:34:16 [pchampin]: sandro: yes
15:34:33 [pchampin]: cygri: you are assuming a particular proposal where the g-box are named
15:34:33 [PatH]: <which I really sincerely hope will not be "g-box">
15:34:43 [pchampin]: ... in that case, "named graph" does not make much sense
15:35:22 [pchampin]: ... In SPARL, there are two notions:
15:35:29 [pchampin]: ... dataset: a set of g-snaps
15:35:42 [cygri]: graph store
15:35:51 [pchampin]: graph store: a set of g-boxes
15:35:53 [cygri]: (sorry for poor acoustics)
15:36:12 [sandro]: guus: do we need a notion of named g-snaps ?
15:36:17 [gavin]: +q
15:36:43 [PatH]: I think we might need the idea of a named g-snap, yes. Need to think about this more.
15:36:48 [LeeF]: In Anzo, we use the term "named graph' for named g-box, despite the linguistic imprecision
15:36:48 [AndyS1]: dataset can (often, does) indirect -- query over the value (g-snap)
15:36:58 [pchampin]: sandro: I have never seen anyone with a good use case for named g-snap
15:37:04 [cygri]: q+
15:37:33 [mischat]: i hope that whatever happens here can we make sure that we align with SPARQL
15:37:33 [pchampin]: guus: most use cases are about provenance, which is about naming g-box
15:37:38 [PatH]: We can always think of a g-snap as a 'fixed' g-box. But then we would need to be able to clearly say that it is 'fixed' and what this means.
15:37:41 [pchampin]: ... or am I over-interpreting?
15:38:05 [AndyS1]: +1 to PatH
15:38:22 [ww]: i tend to think that provenance actually has more to do with g-snaps
15:38:35 [dfensel6__]: dfensel6__ has joined #rdf-wg
15:38:45 [pchampin]: sandro: off-topic announcement: the provenance WG just started, interested participants should keep an eye on it
15:39:27 [sandro]: s/keep an eye on it/join it
15:39:49 [sandro]: pat: Naming of g-snaps is just naming of read-only r-boxes
15:39:51 [sandro]: q+
15:39:51 [ww]: +1
15:40:11 [sandro]: q+ to talk about explicit metadata on gboxes & time
15:40:22 [AZ]: AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:40:46 [pchampin]: gavin: I don't think anybody ever needed to name g-snaps
15:40:55 [sandro]: gavin: People seem to keep naming mutable g-boxes, not immutable g-boxes.
15:41:00 [cygri]: q-
15:41:06 [LeeF]: ack gavin
15:41:10 [cygri]: (too noisy here)
15:41:15 [PatH]: Point well taken. I agree. Maybe we should leave this matter to the wide world to sort out.
15:41:28 [zwu2]: +1
15:41:42 [pchampin]: gavin: it could be useful to truy to name g-snaps, but I don't think anybody ever tried to do that
15:42:10 [cygri]: i wanted to say: in sparql it's just g-snaps. sparql says nothing about what the named graph uri identifies. it's just a data structure for having multiple graphs. that's sufficient for many use cases
15:42:12 [PatH]: That was gavin's point about nobody having implemented this.
15:42:15 [pchampin]: sandro: I like the idea of naming a g-box that does not change
15:42:42 [pchampin]: ... but it is interesting also to talk about a g-box at a particulat instant in time
15:42:48 [PatH]: If we can say <box>is immutable in RDF< then a box can say that it itself is immutable.
15:43:21 [sandro]: <box> rdf:type eg:ImmutableGBox
15:43:27 [FabGandon]: +1
15:43:29 [pchampin]: issue-15?
15:43:29 [trackbot]: ISSUE-15 -- What is the relationship between the IRI and the triples in a dataset/quad-syntax/etc -- raised
15:43:29 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/15
15:43:58 [pchampin]: guus: this issue has no owner
15:44:04 [pchampin]: sandro: must be something I typed in the IRC
15:44:49 [pchampin]: ... In several previous proposal, there is no explicit relationship between the IRI and the triples
15:45:04 [pchampin]: ... In N3 there is a relationship, usually owl:sameAs
15:45:06 [PatH]: Isnt this the same issue we were just talking about?
15:45:19 [PatH]: OK
15:45:19 [pchampin]: pchampin: @PathH yes, it seems to me
15:45:33 [pchampin]: sandro: yes, they are related
15:45:38 [PatH]: OK to leave them separate issues.
15:45:42 [ww]: trig == n3 w/ implied owl:sameAs (and no nesting)
15:45:51 [cygri]: ACTION: richard to write up the different options re ISSUE-15
15:45:51 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-25 - Write up the different options re ISSUE-15 [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2011-04-13].
15:46:21 [pchampin]: guus: so we should open those issues, any one objecting?
15:46:40 [pchampin]: issue-17?
15:46:40 [trackbot]: ISSUE-17 -- How are RDF datasets to be merged? -- raised
15:46:40 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/17
15:46:52 [pchampin]: guus: david on the call?
15:48:07 [pchampin]: peter: we need to fix a problem with the SPARQL definition, sent some comment to the mailing list
15:49:12 [LeeF]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Apr/0077.html and peter's reply at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Apr/0078.html
15:49:25 [PatH]: Why is this our business? Surely the notion of RDF Store belongs to SPARQL , no?
15:49:39 [pchampin]: pchampin: +1 PatH
15:50:08 [pfps]: SPARQL has a definition of the merge of RDF datasets. This is closely related to named graphs, which we are supposed to be dealing with.
15:50:26 [PatH]: The notion of 'default' for example isnt in the RDF specs anywhere.
15:50:29 [Zakim]: - +43.512.507.aabb
15:50:45 [AndyS1]: I see comment, but no proposal for change. The editor will address the comment.
15:51:33 [pfps]: I was trying to not prejudice any solution (by not providing my own). I pointed out that the "defintion" allows multiple answers.
15:51:35 [PatH]: On the face of it, the definition in the emails does not make sense, since it presumes that one name can name two different graphs.
15:52:10 [cygri]: PatH: that's why i'd like to treat them as merely (URI, g-snap) pairs
15:52:10 [PatH]: Which if it happens should be an error condition, seems to me.
15:52:23 [PatH]: OK
15:52:45 [pchampin]: open issue-17
15:52:53 [AndyS1]: graphs are closed descriptions?
15:52:55 [pchampin]: issue-18?
15:52:55 [trackbot]: ISSUE-18 -- How do we parse "18." in Turtle? -- raised
15:52:55 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/18
15:53:17 [ww]: q+
15:53:32 [ww]: zakim, unmute me
15:53:32 [Zakim]: ww should no longer be muted
15:54:01 [cygri]: sandro, would you like to mention bnode skolemization here?
15:54:03 [AlexHall]: PatH, perhaps the same graph is named in both those datasets with competing assertions as to the contents of that graph?
15:54:36 [AZ]: issue 21
15:54:43 [cygri]: ISSUE-21?
15:54:43 [trackbot]: ISSUE-21 -- Can Node-IDs be shared between parts of a quad/multigraph format? -- raised
15:54:43 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/21
15:55:26 [Souri]: q+
15:55:33 [cygri]: i think i'm +1 with ww
15:55:38 [PatH]: +1 sandro
15:55:40 [gavin]: +q
15:55:43 [gavin]: -q
15:55:47 [ww]: zakim, mute me
15:55:47 [Zakim]: ww should now be muted
15:55:51 [Guus]: ack sandro
15:55:51 [Zakim]: sandro, you wanted to talk about explicit metadata on gboxes & time
15:55:51 [pchampin]: ww: what happens if we take two files containing triples, and merge them in a format supporting quads?
15:56:00 [sandro]: sandro: Since you have to do bnode renaming in merging turtle, why not for quads?
15:56:00 [AndyS1]: merge is on g-snaps, not g-texts?
15:56:02 [Guus]: ack ww
15:56:11 [ww]: zakim, mute me
15:56:11 [Zakim]: ww should now be muted
15:56:13 [Guus]: ack Souri
15:56:15 [pchampin]: sandro: you should not be able to simply merge 2 ttl files. You should rename bnodes before.
15:56:41 [pchampin]: souri: the notion of having the same bnode in two different graphs seems odd to me
15:56:55 [AndyS1]: q+
15:56:55 [pchampin]: sandro: I think bnodes are scoped to the document, not to the graph
15:56:59 [PatH]: Blank node *identifiers* are scoped according to conventions defined by the particular format.
15:57:11 [pchampin]: ... which is convenient for the moment as our documents contain only one graph
15:57:16 [PatH]: Blank nodes should be unique to a 'grpah' (= g-box)
15:57:23 [Souri]: q+
15:57:27 [pchampin]: ... but if a document was to contain several graphs, it would happen.
15:57:52 [pchampin]: ... Consider a subgraph of a given graph; they can obviously share bnodes.
15:58:00 [ww]: blank node scope comes up in several places...
15:58:00 [LeeF]: It's not clear to me if we're discussing the scope of blank nodes, the mathematical objects, or the scope of blank node identifiers, the way of writing down the things in g-texts, or both
15:58:12 [pchampin]: guus: isn't that another issue?
15:58:31 [AndyS1]: q-
15:58:32 [ww]: +1 sandro's correction of loose language - bnode identifiers are what have scope
15:58:53 [PatH]: +1 sandro.
15:59:12 [pchampin]: souri: we are talking from a storing point of view
15:59:24 [AndyS1]: Both - bnodes as variables have a scope but != bnode labels in a serialization
15:59:43 [pchampin]: ... _:x boild down to prefixing x with the name of the graph
16:00:30 [PatH]: Lee; blank nodes dont have scope. They are gloablly unique. Bnode IDs have scope.
16:00:42 [gavin]: ... the blank node would -have- to be unique to a graph. Two graphs may exist on diffrent systems on the web, if you want their identity to be the same same USE A URI.
16:00:59 [AndyS1]: +1 to PatH's description
16:01:22 [pchampin]: sandro: some SPARQL endpoints, like 4store, have the default graph to be the union of all other stores
16:01:27 [PatH]: I will try to add some text to clarify all this.
16:01:36 [Guus]: propose to add Pat's description to Issue 21 description
16:01:53 [Guus]: thx Pat
16:01:56 [Souri]: q+
16:02:05 [SteveH]: q+
16:02:17 [pchampin]: ... so how do we serialize this?
16:02:17 [Guus]: ack Souri
16:02:27 [PatH]: Souri, sandro, please CC me on any offline emails.
16:02:45 [SteveH]: q-
16:03:05 [Guus]: pls no offline emails
16:03:17 [Guus]: q?
16:03:22 [pchampin]: souri: we have to distinguish between _:x used in two different files
16:03:40 [pchampin]: ... bnodes are scoped to the graph
16:04:15 [pfps]: It is possible for two RDF graphs to contain the "same" bnode, but the RDF semantics doesn't let you see any effects of this.
16:04:16 [pchampin]: action PatH to write an description of action-21
16:04:16 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-26 - Write an description of action-21 [on Patrick Hayes - due 2011-04-13].
16:04:41 [pchampin]: issue-22?
16:04:41 [trackbot]: ISSUE-22 -- Does multigraph syntax need to support empty graphs? -- raised
16:04:41 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/22
16:05:22 [pchampin]: LeeF: a quad store can be naively seens as a big table with 4 columns
16:05:43 [Guus]: q?
16:05:44 [pchampin]: ... but this naive view does not allow to represent an empty graph
16:06:09 [pchampin]: ... so should serialization support that? Some serialization can (e.g. Trig)
16:06:14 [gavin]: +q
16:06:16 [PatH]: Nah, its NIL is LISP. Yes, lets allow this.
16:06:32 [PatH]: +q
16:06:55 [AndyS1]: When "named X" considered, becomes more relevant
16:07:12 [pchampin]: peter: are we going to allow necessarily empty g-*?
16:07:15 [PatH]: BTW, in the RDF semantics, the empty graph is (a) unique and (b) always false.
16:07:15 [sandro]: q+ to answer peter
16:07:33 [cygri]: guus, I just created ISSUE-23 to capture discussion i had with dave on the mailing list
16:07:41 [Guus]: ack gavin
16:07:48 [AZ]: AZ has joined #rdf-wg
16:08:10 [pfps]: suppose you have a set of quads - how to you know that you have all the triples in a particular graph?
16:08:10 [pchampin]: gave: most document databases (e.g. mongodb) explicitly do not allow empty documents
16:08:17 [sandro]: gavin: XML and MongoDB don't allow empty documents.
16:08:24 [pchampin]: ... an XML doc has to contain at least an element
16:08:27 [Guus]: ack PatH
16:08:37 [LeeF]: i'm not sure that's the same issue? i'll never know that, whether i'm writing down 0 triples or 100 triples
16:08:41 [LeeF]: right?
16:08:42 [pfps]: to follow this on ... all the possible empty named graphs already exist in RDF
16:09:04 [pchampin]: PatH: I was going to vote for empty graph, mathematically more elegant
16:09:11 [ww]: intuitively +1 to PatH
16:09:12 [pchampin]: ... they are useful limit cases
16:09:22 [mischat]: zakim, who is making noise?
16:09:24 [pchampin]: pchampin: +1
16:09:27 [LeeF]: FWIW, I was trying to lay out the issue as I understand it neutrally, I do have a strong opinion on how the issue should be resolved :)
16:09:33 [Zakim]: mischat, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (5%), Luca (66%)
16:09:40 [PatH]: I think the morse code is agreeing with us.
16:09:43 [pchampin]: sandro: most (all?) RDF syntax allow to convey the empty graph
16:09:53 [pchampin]: ... forbidding that would be a problem
16:09:59 [Zakim]: -ww
16:10:19 [pchampin]: guus: position for the moment: allow empty graph unless there is a very good reason not too
16:10:25 [sandro]: zakim, mute luca
16:10:25 [Zakim]: Luca should now be muted
16:10:28 [Souri]: the flip side is that managing graphs as first class entity creates additional complexity (like tables in an RDBMS)
16:10:32 [pchampin]: ... but let's keep the issue open for the moment
16:10:38 [cygri]: ISSUE-23?
16:10:38 [trackbot]: ISSUE-23 -- Does going from single-graph to multi-graph require new format and new media types? -- raised
16:10:38 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/23
16:11:36 [LeeF]: Souri, SPARQL Update acknowledged that by trying to allow both sorts of stores likely behavior
16:11:57 [cygri]: LeeF, and I think that makes the SPARQL Update spec quite awkward
16:12:10 [pchampin]: sandro: I will open issue-23
16:12:12 [LeeF]: cygri, I don't necessarily disagree with that
16:12:25 [pchampin]: topic: cleanup issues
16:12:37 [pchampin]: guus: we have a face at the F2F to discuss them
16:12:37 [cygri]: LeeF, as a matter of principle, I think “let's allow both” is rarely the right answer in a spec
16:12:50 [LeeF]: cygri, I also don't disagree with that
16:12:54 [cygri]: :-)
16:13:13 [pchampin]: ... we need to make some progress on the issue about the "RDF Recommendation Set"
16:13:24 [Guus]: q?
16:13:34 [pchampin]: ... and start thinking about editors for those documents
16:13:37 [sandro]: sandro has changed the topic to: Agenda: q-
16:14:05 [Zakim]: -Peter_Patel-Schneider
16:14:07 [zwu2]: bye
16:14:10 [Zakim]: -AlexHall
16:14:10 [cygri]: thank you! bye!
16:14:13 [Zakim]: -cygri
16:14:14 [Zakim]: -PatH
16:14:14 [Zakim]: -zwu2
16:14:16 [Zakim]: -Souri_
16:14:17 [Zakim]: -OlivierCorby
16:14:18 [Zakim]: -[Garlik]
16:14:19 [Zakim]: -AZ
16:14:20 [Zakim]: -Sandro
16:14:22 [pchampin]: RRSagent, draft minutes
16:14:23 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/06-rdf-wg-minutes.html pchampin
16:14:24 [Zakim]: -FabGandon
16:14:28 [Zakim]: -gavinc
16:14:32 [AlexHall]: AlexHall has left #rdf-wg
16:14:35 [mbrunati]: ok, bye
16:14:37 [FabGandon]: FabGandon has left #rdf-wg
16:14:40 [Zakim]: -LeeF
16:14:43 [Zakim]: -mbrunati
16:14:49 [Zakim]: -AndyS1
16:14:50 [Zakim]: - +31.20.598.aaaa
16:14:59 [AndyS1]: AndyS1 has left #rdf-wg
16:15:29 [Zakim]: -hsbauer
16:15:47 [gavin]: gavin has left #rdf-wg
16:17:22 [AndyS]: AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
16:17:30 [sandro]: I'm on irc, but not th ephone.
16:18:27 [mbrunati]: mbrunati has left #rdf-wg
16:18:38 [sandro]: sure, how far did you get?
16:18:47 [pchampin]: I basically know how to publish the minutes with RRSAgent
16:18:53 [sandro]: Ah.
16:18:54 [pchampin]: which are there
16:18:55 [pchampin]: http://www.w3.org/2011/04/06-rdf-wg-minutes.html
16:18:59 [pchampin]: but not public
16:19:12 [pchampin]: but I know nothing about the wiki thing
16:19:38 [sandro]: Take a look at this, and let me know if it's not clear: http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/manual.html
16:19:49 [sandro]: (you'
16:19:52 [pchampin]: ok, thanks
16:19:56 [sandro]: (you're on step 3 now)
16:20:09 [SteveH]: SteveH has joined #rdf-wg
16:21:08 [pchampin]: yep, figured that out
16:21:12 [pchampin]: however, I have no access to http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/panel/
16:21:14 [pchampin]: :-(
16:21:34 [pchampin]: I'm *only* an invited expert, that must be why...
16:21:37 [sandro]: really? Can you see http://www.w3.org/Member/
16:22:26 [pchampin]: no
16:22:34 [pchampin]: keeps prompting me for a login/pw
16:22:45 [pchampin]: and would not accept my W3C credential
16:22:54 [pchampin]: which work well on other pages
16:23:13 [sandro]: I see. You're a "public invited expert" not a "member invited expert". I wonder how that happened..... :-(
16:23:34 [pchampin]: me too
16:23:45 [pchampin]: I didn't even know about that subtle distinction...
16:23:53 [pchampin]: where can you see that?
16:23:58 [sandro]: Well, for now I did step 3, so it's copied to the wiki.
16:24:02 [pchampin]: (on a page not accesible to me, maybe ;-)
16:24:08 [sandro]: I see it in http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=46168&public=1
16:24:14 [sandro]: just under your name,
16:24:40 [pchampin]: thks
16:24:42 [sandro]: I'm trying to remember why you're an IE. What's your affiliation? Is it an org that is in process of joining W3C?
16:25:23 [sandro]: I think you'll be able to do the editing-the-wiki and preview part of the minutes, but not the final "save", so just email me when you're ready, and I'll do that part.
16:26:59 [pchampin]: well, I can't "preview" either :-(
16:27:08 [sandro]: blah..... :-( :-(
16:27:22 [sandro]: (thinking)
16:27:24 [pchampin]: my university is not a member yet
16:27:35 [pchampin]: but yes, they are in the process of joining
16:27:46 [sandro]: so, this is a short term problem, good.
16:28:09 [pchampin]: :-)
16:28:14 [pchampin]: ok, I'll do some cleaning
16:28:44 [pchampin]: blind cleaning, that is :)
16:29:02 [pchampin]: thanks for your help
16:30:54 [sandro]: The permissions for the script seem to be set to allow everyone, and I don't have time to debug it now, so yeah, thanks for cleaning-blind, sorry!
16:31:19 [mischat]: mischat has joined #rdf-wg
16:35:00 [Zakim]: disconnecting the lone participant, Luca, in SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
16:35:01 [Zakim]: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
16:35:05 [Zakim]: Attendees were FabGandon, +31.20.598.aaaa, AndyS1, Sandro, gavinc, LeeF, Peter_Patel-Schneider, OlivierCorby, mbrunati, +43.512.507.aabb, SteveH, mischat, Souri_, AlexHall, cygri,
16:35:08 [Zakim]: ... PatH, hsbauer, Luca, zwu2, ww, AZ
17:07:20 [AndyS]: AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
18:10:45 [mischat]: mischat has joined #rdf-wg
18:19:38 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #rdf-wg
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