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Chatlog 2012-10-18
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14:48:13 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov 14:48:13 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/18-prov-irc 14:48:15 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 14:48:15 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov 14:48:17 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 14:48:17 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot 14:48:18 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference 14:48:18 <trackbot> Date: 18 October 2012 14:49:11 <ivan> zakim, this will be prov 14:49:11 <Zakim> ok, ivan; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 11 minutes 14:49:43 <Luc> Luc has joined #prov 14:53:17 <pgroth> pgroth has joined #prov 14:53:50 <pgroth> trackbot, start telcon 14:53:52 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 14:53:54 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 14:53:54 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot 14:53:55 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference 14:53:55 <trackbot> Date: 18 October 2012 14:54:01 <pgroth> Zakim, this will be PROV 14:54:01 <Zakim> ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes 14:54:12 <pgroth> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.10.18 14:54:19 <pgroth> Chair: Paul Groth 14:54:26 <pgroth> rrsagent, make logs public 14:54:45 <pgroth> Regrets: James Cheney 14:55:16 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started 14:55:23 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 14:55:32 <pgroth> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me 14:55:32 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it 14:56:05 <ivan> zakim, code? 14:56:05 <Zakim> the conference code is 7768 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan 14:56:34 <Zakim> + +1.617.324.aaaa 14:56:40 <ivan> zakim, aaaa is Ivan 14:56:40 <Zakim> +Ivan; got it 14:58:21 <Paolo> Paolo has joined #prov 14:58:34 <Zakim> + +44.238.059.aabb 14:58:53 <Luc> zakim, aabb is me 14:58:53 <Zakim> +Luc; got it 14:59:40 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 14:59:45 <smiles> smiles has joined #prov 14:59:45 <Curt> Curt has joined #prov 14:59:57 <Zakim> +Curt_Tilmes 15:00:32 <pgroth> scribe? 15:00:43 <hook> hook has joined #prov 15:00:52 <CraigTrim> CraigTrim has joined #PROV 15:01:19 <Zakim> + +1.661.382.aacc 15:01:23 <pgroth> Scribe: Curt 15:01:34 <CraigTrim> zakim, +aacc is me 15:01:34 <Zakim> sorry, CraigTrim, I do not recognize a party named '+aacc' 15:01:41 <CraigTrim> Zakim, aacc is me 15:01:41 <Zakim> +CraigTrim; got it 15:01:47 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a] 15:02:31 <zednik> zednik has joined #prov 15:02:38 <Zakim> +Luc.a 15:02:45 <pgroth> Topic: Admin <pgroth> Summary: Minutes approved. Actions went through. Paul agreed to follow-up on actions with Stian. 15:02:50 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-10-11 15:02:51 <Zakim> +??P25 15:02:54 <satya> satya has joined #prov 15:02:57 <Zakim> + +1.818.731.aadd 15:02:58 <jun> jun has joined #prov 15:02:59 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.aa] 15:03:01 <pgroth> Proposed Minutes of the October 11, 2012 Telecon 15:03:06 <Curt> +1 15:03:09 <satya> +1 15:03:09 <smiles> +1 15:03:10 <ivan> +1 15:03:13 <khalidBelhajjame> khalidBelhajjame has joined #prov 15:03:14 <hook> +1 15:03:14 <jun> zakim, [IPcaller.aa] is me 15:03:15 <Zakim> +jun; got it 15:03:17 <zednik> +1 15:03:22 <Paolo> 0 (not there) 15:03:23 <Dong> Dong has joined #prov 15:03:33 <pgroth> accepted: Minutes of the October 11, 2012 Telecon 15:03:43 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo 15:03:56 <Curt> pgroth: review open action items 15:04:23 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.aa] 15:04:39 <Curt> pgroth: some action holders not present -- paul will follow up with email 15:04:47 <khalidBelhajjame> zakim, [IPcaller.aa] is me 15:04:47 <Zakim> +khalidBelhajjame; got it 15:04:56 <Curt> pgroth: scribes -- need them, please volunteer! 15:05:03 <pgroth> Topic: Reminder about the timetable <pgroth> Summary: The group was reminded about the timetable and the goal to get to CR around mid-november and as such it was important to stay on-top of responses. 15:05:37 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/TimetableToRec 15:05:51 <Curt> pgroth: reviewing timetable ^ 15:06:09 <Curt> pgroth: need to get issues closed to go to CR 15:06:41 <Curt> pgroth: luc sending out a lot of responses, need group to try to stay on top of them 15:07:12 <pgroth> q? 15:07:32 <pgroth> Topic: Exit Criteria <pgroth> Summary: The revised exit criteria were gone through. There was a discussion around the current wording of interoperable independent implementations. The group agreed that the proposal by Luc around pairs of consuming and generating implementations was preferable. Paul agreed to revise the version for a vote next week on the mailing list. 15:07:38 <TomDN> TomDN has joined #prov 15:07:43 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvCRExitCriteria 15:07:47 <Zakim> + +329331aaee 15:07:55 <TomDN> Zakim, +329 is me 15:07:55 <Zakim> +TomDN; got it 15:08:01 <Curt> pgroth: incorporated some feedback, put on list for review 15:08:05 <TomDN> Zakim, mute me 15:08:05 <Zakim> TomDN should now be muted 15:08:30 <Curt> pgroth: added explicit exit criteria for PROV-DM per james, inherits from PROV-O and N 15:08:37 <Curt> pgroth: some wording updated 15:08:50 <smiles> Apart from the "independent" comment Luc made by email, they looked good to me 15:08:56 <pgroth> q? 15:10:07 <Curt> Luc: PROV-O - what is independent of what? it doesn't require independence between producer/consumer 15:10:56 <Curt> Luc: suggested - independence between producer and consumer 15:11:38 <Curt> Luc: similar to client/server, producer and consumer must be independent to demonstrate interoperability 15:11:50 <pgroth> An interoperability pair consists of an implementation generating a 15:11:50 <pgroth> feature and an independent implementation consuming the feature. For 15:11:50 <pgroth> each feature, at least two interoperability pairs will have been 15:11:51 <pgroth> demonstrated to exist 15:11:58 <Luc> "An interoperability pair consists of an implementation generating a feature and an independent implementation consuming the feature. For each feature, at least two interoperability pairs will have been demonstrated to exist." 15:12:32 <pgroth> q? 15:12:33 <Curt> pgroth: This is stronger -- SKOS wasn't quite this strong. If group wants it, ok.. 15:12:41 <smiles> q+ 15:13:15 <khalidBelhajjame> Yes, it looks stronge, but I think what Luc is suggesting is what one would exepect when talking about interoperability 15:13:20 <Curt> smiles: makes sense that they should be independent 15:13:47 <Paolo> it would be more convincing 15:13:51 <Curt> pgroth: worried about making it stronger than it really needs to be 15:14:01 <Luc> q+ 15:14:13 <pgroth> ack smiles 15:14:16 <pgroth> ack Luc 15:14:39 <Paolo> ... two pairs of independent producers and consumers... 15:14:44 <Curt> Luc: are there concerns we wouldn't meet the stronger criteria? 15:14:55 <Curt> pgroth: we could for PROV-O, not sure about PROV-N 15:15:29 <Curt> Luc: an implementation includes a dataset -- we do have some PROV-N datasets, this should be workable 15:15:39 <Curt> Luc: as long as we have two consumers of that 15:15:49 <Curt> pgroth: will update with the proposed new language 15:15:58 <pgroth> q? 15:16:32 <Curt> ivan: What Luc proposes is good, but Paul has the question -- "Can we make it?" 15:16:50 <Zakim> +[OpenLink] 15:16:56 <MacTed> Zakim, [OpenLink] is temporarily me 15:16:56 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it 15:16:58 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me 15:16:58 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted 15:17:09 <Curt> Luc: If we have two implmentations from the same organization, they may not be considered independent 15:17:41 <Curt> pgroth: we were trying to keep the threshold attainable 15:17:58 <Curt> pgroth: but your language is better, just want to make sure we can meet it 15:18:25 <ivan> q+ 15:18:30 <Curt> pgroth: trying to figure out the right language, and consider the ramifications of that language on the exit criteria 15:19:02 <Curt> ivan: the language may be a little vague, but should be ok with it the way it is 15:19:15 <Curt> Luc: want to make sure the language reflects our intent 15:19:33 <Curt> ivan: It's ok with me, it seems satisfactory 15:19:50 <Curt> ivan: (in my view, not official w3c position) 15:20:10 <Curt> pgroth: ok, going back to original language 15:20:19 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvCRExitCriteria 15:21:10 <Curt> pgroth: we could have prov-n documents and two different implementations that could read/process them 15:21:16 <pgroth> q? 15:21:20 <pgroth> ack ivan 15:21:22 <ivan> ack ivan 15:21:27 <Curt> Luc: will we have two independent consumers of prov-n? 15:22:25 <Paolo> sorry, what does it mean to "consume prov-n"? would this be an independently generated parser? 15:22:30 <Curt> Luc: with my version, A producing and B consuming is one pair, B producing and A consuming is another pair, as long as A and B are independent 15:22:48 <Curt> pgroth: thought consumption would be easier than production 15:23:09 <Curt> pgroth: still some concerns -- let's postpone final vote on this 15:23:20 <hook> q+ 15:23:36 <Paolo> q+ 15:23:46 <pgroth> ack hook 15:24:06 <Curt> hook: if all features don't have independent pairs. 15:24:29 <dgarijo> dgarijo has joined #prov 15:24:31 <Curt> pgroth: each feature must be coverened, but given implementations don't have to cover every feature 15:24:54 <Curt> ivan: it is considered to be an implemmentation for the features it covers 15:24:56 <pgroth> ack Paolo 15:25:09 <Zakim> +??P7 15:25:11 <ivan> s/implememmentation/implementation/ 15:25:18 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P7 is me 15:25:18 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it 15:25:26 <Curt> Paolo: what is a consumer? How about just a parser? 15:25:28 <ivan> s/implemmentation/implementation/ 15:25:46 <Curt> pgroth: yes, a parser would be 15:25:58 <pgroth> q? 15:26:26 <smiles> yes 15:26:31 <Curt> pgroth: interoperability pairs could be easier than the language we have now 15:26:33 <khalidBelhajjame> I think it makes more sense too 15:26:55 <Curt> pgroth: I will rephrase the language and send it around for review by Tuesday next week 15:27:07 <Curt> Luc: we can have an online vote 15:27:24 <pgroth> action: Paul to revise cr exit criteria, online vote next week 15:27:25 <trackbot> Created ACTION-120 - Revise cr exit criteria, online vote next week [on Paul Groth - due 2012-10-25]. 15:27:49 <pgroth> Topic: PROV-DM issues <pgroth> Summary: The responses to ISSUE-524 ISSUE-519 ISSUE-521 ISSUE-450 ISSUE-482 ISSUE-518 were approved as working group responses. 15:28:25 <hook> hook has joined #prov 15:28:50 <pgroth> proposed: accept ISSUE-529 ISSUE-524 ISSUE-519 ISSUE-521 ISSUE-450 ISSUE-482 ISSUE-499 ISSUE-518 as working group responses 15:28:58 <Dong> +1 15:28:59 <ivan> +1 15:29:00 <TomDN> +1 15:29:03 <khalidBelhajjame> +1 15:29:06 <dgarijo> +1 15:29:07 <zednik> +1 15:29:08 <satya> +1 15:29:38 <Curt> Luc: 529 and 499 still have some comments 15:30:08 <smiles> +1 15:30:11 <pgroth> accepted: accept ISSUE-524 ISSUE-519 ISSUE-521 ISSUE-450 ISSUE-482 ISSUE-518 as working group responses 15:31:00 <Curt> Luc: there is a question from robert, a question about entity, and several comments from ivan 15:31:08 <Curt> Luc: and the one on mention, still to address 15:31:19 <Curt> Luc: will tackle most of them on monday 15:31:37 <pgroth> q? 15:31:37 <Curt> pgroth: requested acknowledgement from Robert on responses 15:31:43 <Curt> pgroth: he is traveling 15:31:52 <pgroth> Topic: PROV-N issues <pgroth> Summary: public comment responses were accepted on all outstanding issues on PROV-N. PROV-N should now be complete. 15:32:50 <pgroth> proposed: ISSUE-541 ISSUE-542 ISSUE-543 ISSUE-545 ISSUE-537 ISSUE-535 ISSUE-534 ISSUE-536 ISSUE-538 ISSUE-533 ISSUE-546 ISSUE-540 ISSUE-539 ISSUE-544 as working group responses 15:32:55 <TomDN> +1 15:32:59 <ivan> +1 15:33:05 <Dong> +1 15:33:06 <dgarijo> +1 15:33:18 <zednik> +1 15:33:22 <stephenc> stephenc has joined #prov 15:33:29 <smiles> +1 15:33:30 <khalidBelhajjame> +1 15:33:49 <pgroth> accepted: ISSUE-541 ISSUE-542 ISSUE-543 ISSUE-545 ISSUE-537 ISSUE-535 ISSUE-534 ISSUE-536 ISSUE-538 ISSUE-533 ISSUE-546 ISSUE-540 ISSUE-539 ISSUE-544 as working group responses 15:34:09 <Curt> pgroth: anything more to address with PROV-N? 15:34:16 <Curt> Luc: should all be addressed now 15:34:43 <Curt> Luc: need to align bundle language with constraints 15:34:50 <Zakim> +??P18 15:34:53 <pgroth> Topic: PROV-O issues <pgroth> Summary: The group went over two outstanding issues. There was a question about subclassing in PROV-O (ISSUE-552). The group discussed this and felt it might be a bug, however, those on the call were unsure. Tim was actioned to look at this issue. Daniel agreed to look at the second issue around the domain of the hadRole relation and its compatibility with prov-dm. 15:35:14 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here? 15:35:14 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, Ivan, Luc, [IPcaller], Curt_Tilmes, CraigTrim, [IPcaller.a], Luc.a, ??P25, jun, +1.818.731.aadd, Satya_Sahoo, khalidBelhajjame, TomDN (muted), MacTed 15:35:18 <Zakim> ... (muted), dgarijo, ??P18 15:35:18 <Zakim> On IRC I see stephenc, hook, dgarijo, TomDN, Dong, khalidBelhajjame, jun, satya, zednik, CraigTrim, Curt, smiles, Paolo, pgroth, Luc, Zakim, RRSAgent, MacTed, ivan, stain, trackbot 15:35:23 <stephenc> I just joined 15:35:34 <ivan> zakim, ??P18 is stephenc 15:35:35 <Zakim> +stephenc; got it 15:35:54 <ivan> issue-552? 15:35:54 <trackbot> ISSUE-552 -- Check subclass definitions in prov-o -- raised 15:35:54 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/552 15:35:58 <Curt> pgroth: Tim not present, need to address issues 15:36:01 <pgroth> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-comments/2012Sep/0000.html 15:36:29 <Curt> pgroth: can someone address 552? 15:36:39 <Curt> pgroth: is this a PROV-DM or PROV-O problem? 15:36:45 <MacTed> both... 15:37:00 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me 15:37:00 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted 15:37:02 <Luc> q+ 15:37:18 <Curt> ivan: Can it be turned into subclasses? 15:37:25 <pgroth> ack Luc 15:37:26 <Curt> ivan: does PROV-DM support that? 15:37:47 <satya> I believe that is DM 15:37:54 <Curt> Luc: Is this need from PROV-DM or PROV-O? 15:38:18 <Curt> pgroth: DM definitions repeated into PROV-O, there aren't new definitions 15:38:22 <hook> hook has joined #prov 15:38:28 <dgarijo> I can find it in the overview: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/tip/ontology/Overview.html#Quotation 15:38:37 <Curt> Luc: suggestion is to make quotation a type of derivation 15:38:45 <Curt> MacTed: That still equates to a subclass 15:39:09 <Curt> Luc: how is quotation expressed in PROV-O? 15:39:14 <MacTed> `The definition of Quotation includes "Quotation is a particular case of derivation.". However Quotation is not a subclass of Derivation, which is what the english would imply. A better wording, assuming I understand the current english would be: "Quotation is a kind of derivation".` 15:39:26 <Curt> pgroth: there is a property and a class prov:quotation 15:39:47 <Curt> MacTed: concern is that the english says it is a subclass, but isn't explicit where it should be 15:40:10 <Curt> MacTed: it isn't consistent whether quotation is a subclass of derivation 15:40:40 <satya> Atleast that is not in the OWL file of PROV-O 15:40:54 <Curt> MacTed: it sounds like the missing language is in PROV-O 15:41:55 <Curt> pgroth: can one of the PROV-O editors address this? 15:42:03 <Curt> Luc: should action to Tim ask if this is a bug 15:42:39 <pgroth> action: Tim check whether it is a bug or feature the lack of subclassing for Quotation and Derivation see ISSUE 552 15:42:39 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find Tim. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/users>. 15:43:04 <Curt> MacTed: This is an example -- there may be other places where similar subclassing is missing 15:43:30 <MacTed> "lack of subclassing for, e.g., Quotation and Derivation" 15:44:20 <Curt> pgroth: I'll revise the action and email Tim 15:44:40 <ivan> issue-568? 15:44:40 <trackbot> ISSUE-568 -- domain of prov:hadRole -- raised 15:44:40 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/568 15:45:15 <Zakim> -CraigTrim 15:46:22 <Curt> Luc: domain includes influence, which would allow expression of some relationships that DM does not allow 15:46:53 <dgarijo> I'll check it out 15:47:30 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/446 15:47:31 <Curt> pgroth: dgarijo has open issue 15:47:52 <Curt> dgarijo: I will check it out 15:48:04 <pgroth> q? 15:48:24 <Curt> Luc: what are the implications of changing the domain of hadrole? 15:48:41 <pgroth> q 15:48:42 <pgroth> q? 15:48:43 <Curt> Luc: for PROV-O last call, and on other documents 15:48:55 <Curt> ivan: This is a bug, not a change in fundamental design, correct? 15:49:11 <Curt> pgroth: need to confirm bug, but yes, not changing the design 15:49:25 <Luc_> Luc_ has joined #prov 15:49:27 <Curt> ivan: If it is a real bug, there isn't a problem with the last call 15:49:46 <Curt> ivan: last call asks if there questions about design, not bugs 15:49:56 <Curt> ivan: If there are design changes, then we have to look at it again 15:50:04 <Curt> ivan: not sure how this will affect other documents 15:50:46 <Curt> Luc: If we have a second last call for PROV-O, do we have to do that with the others too? 15:50:48 <Curt> ivan: no 15:50:55 <Curt> Luc: would that delay CR? 15:51:04 <Curt> ivan: we want them to go together, so yes 15:51:17 <Curt> ivan: it would incur a minimum delay of three weeks 15:51:19 <pgroth> q? 15:51:22 <pgroth> Topic: Reminder on Notes <pgroth> Summary: The status of several notes was gone through. Work on prov-aq will begin again in november. Daniel will begin to respond to all issues on PROV-DC beginning next week. Paolo said he would check into the status of PROV-Dictionary. 15:51:24 <Curt> ivan: but we aren't there yet.. 15:51:53 <Curt> pgroth: dgarijo sent email update on PROV-DC 15:52:14 <Curt> dgarijo: we still need to write formal responses for issues 15:52:36 <Curt> pgroth: PROV-AQ, graham will work on that towards Novembers 15:52:43 <Curt> ^Novembers^November 15:52:59 <pgroth> q? 15:53:10 <Curt> pgroth: other priorities, will delay PROV-AQ until November, thoughts about that? 15:53:28 <pgroth> q? 15:53:37 <Curt> pgroth: Needs a push to clean up final note, more important to work on implementations for now 15:53:49 <Curt> ivan: the note, or a draft at that point? 15:54:00 <Curt> pgroth: publish draft then, then the note later 15:54:30 <Curt> ivan: suggest publishing the note with the rest of the rec, publishing together would be better 15:55:16 <Curt> pgroth: PROV-Dictionary, make that into a note 15:55:29 <Curt> pgroth: stain working on that 15:55:34 <Paolo> q+ 15:55:46 <pgroth> ack Paolo 15:56:08 <Curt> Paolo: we talked about this, we made a plan, haven't heard updates since 15:56:34 <Curt> Paolo: I will remind stain 15:56:46 <Dong> Sorry, I need to go 15:57:15 <Luc_> q+ 15:57:16 <pgroth> q? 15:57:16 <Curt> pgroth: I'll discuss with Luc how to address this 15:57:21 <Curt> (I have to go) 15:57:32 <Paolo> have to run... 15:57:36 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a] 15:57:41 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes 15:57:59 <khalidBelhajjame> bye 15:58:03 <Zakim> -dgarijo 15:58:04 <Zakim> -[IPcaller] 15:58:04 <TomDN> bye 15:58:06 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo 15:58:07 <Zakim> -khalidBelhajjame 15:58:16 <Zakim> -stephenc 15:58:17 <Zakim> -??P25 15:58:23 <Zakim> -MacTed 15:58:39 <Zakim> -TomDN 15:58:45 <pgroth> rrsagent, set log public 15:58:47 <Zakim> -jun 15:58:49 <pgroth> rrsagent, draft minutes 15:58:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/18-prov-minutes.html pgroth 15:58:54 <pgroth> trackbot, end telcon 15:58:54 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees 15:58:54 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been pgroth, +1.617.324.aaaa, Ivan, +44.238.059.aabb, Luc, [IPcaller], Curt_Tilmes, +1.661.382.aacc, CraigTrim, +1.818.731.aadd, jun, 15:58:57 <Zakim> ... Satya_Sahoo, khalidBelhajjame, +329331aaee, TomDN, MacTed, dgarijo, stephenc 15:59:02 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes 15:59:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/18-prov-minutes.html trackbot 15:59:03 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye 15:59:03 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/18-prov-actions.rdf : 15:59:03 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Paul to revise cr exit criteria, online vote next week [1] 15:59:03 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/18-prov-irc#T15-27-24 15:59:03 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Tim check whether it is a bug or feature the lack of subclassing for Quotation and Derivation see ISSUE 552 [2] 15:59:03 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/18-prov-irc#T15-42-39 # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000331