Provenance Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 03 May 2012

Agenda
http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.05.03
Seen
Curt Tilmes, Daniel Garijo, Graham Klyne, James McCusker, James Cheney, Jun Zhao, Kai Eckert, Khalid Belhajjame, Luc Moreau, Paolo Missier, Paul Groth, Sandro Hawke, Satya Sahoo, Simon Miles, Stephan Zednik, Stephen Cresswell, Stian Soiland-Reyes, Ted Thibodeau, Timothy Lebo, Tom De Nies
Regrets
Khalid Belhajjame
Chair
Paul Groth
Scribe
Stian Soiland-Reyes, Daniel Garijo
IRC Log
Original and Editable Wiki Version
Resolutions
  1. Minutes of the April 26 2012 Telecon link
  2. Option 1 include proposed definitions in prov-dm document and close issue on alternate/specialization link
  3. adopt changes as put forth in http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/368 link
Topics
  1. Admin

  2. Release of Documents

    Congratulations to the group for publication of 5 working drafts. Blog posts were drafted to go together with the announcement. Actions were created to announce the publication of these drafts to various mailing lists as well as the connection task force's community.

  3. PAQ

    Presentation on editorial changes to e PAQ. The correct url for the proposed release could not be found so the vote was delayed until the next call so that the url could be distributed.

  4. Dublin Core Best Practice

    A summary and timetable for dublin core best practices were given. The collaborative document was being hosted on github so that the dublin core participants and W3C participants could work together. It was suggested to move this to the W3C for reasons around intellectual property and invite the dublin core participants to be invited experts. A quick release of the mapping to dublin core was encouraged, in particular, before the next face-to-face meeting.

  5. Definition of Alternate and Specialization

    the group voted on revised versions of definitions for entity, alternate and specialization. These definitions were accepted.

  6. Responsibility

    a proposal was put forward to make derivation independent of the agents/responsibility component of the data model. This proposal was accepted.

  7. PROV Notation Optional Identifiers Syntax

    A discussion was had around the notation for optional identifiers used in prov-n. It was felt that there were wider issues with respect to the prov-n notation that needed to be considered. The editors were given guidance to move forward with the use of ";" as a marker for optional identifiers and based on this address other outstanding issues with respect to the syntax. Group members were then encouraged to make comments on the entirety of the revised document.

14:46:16 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-prov-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-prov-irc

14:46:18 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

14:46:20 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be

14:46:20 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

14:46:21 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:46:21 <trackbot> Date: 03 May 2012
14:46:22 <pgroth> Zakim, this will be PROV

Paul Groth: Zakim, this will be PROV

14:46:22 <Zakim> ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 14 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 14 minutes

14:46:35 <pgroth> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.05.03
14:46:43 <pgroth> Scribe: Stian Soiland-Reyes

(Scribe set to Stian Soiland-Reyes)

14:46:49 <pgroth> Chair: Paul Groth
14:47:00 <pgroth> rrsagent, make logs public

Paul Groth: rrsagent, make logs public

14:47:08 <pgroth> Regrets: Khalid Belhajjame
14:53:05 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

(No events recorded for 6 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

14:53:13 <Zakim> + +49.674.180.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +49.674.180.aaaa

14:53:17 <Zakim> +TomDN

Zakim IRC Bot: +TomDN

14:53:28 <TomDN> Zakim, mute me

Tom De Nies: Zakim, mute me

14:53:28 <Zakim> TomDN should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: TomDN should now be muted

14:53:37 <pgroth> do you hear us?

Paul Groth: do you hear us?

14:54:09 <TomDN> I don't hear anyone atm

Tom De Nies: I don't hear anyone atm

14:54:39 <TomDN> problems with the system?

Tom De Nies: problems with the system?

14:54:44 <pgroth> i don't know

Paul Groth: i don't know

14:54:51 <pgroth> can you say something?

Paul Groth: can you say something?

14:54:55 <TomDN> Zakim, unmute me

Tom De Nies: Zakim, unmute me

14:54:55 <Zakim> TomDN should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: TomDN should no longer be muted

14:55:18 <pgroth> i can hear you

Paul Groth: i can hear you

14:58:44 <Zakim> +??P31

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P31

14:59:24 <Zakim> +Curt_Tilmes

Zakim IRC Bot: +Curt_Tilmes

15:00:08 <Zakim> +??P37

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P37

15:01:03 <stain> 1 sec

1 sec

15:01:31 <Zakim> +??P35

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P35

15:01:36 <Zakim> +??P38

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P38

15:01:39 <Zakim> +??P28

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P28

15:01:51 <stain> Zakim: one of those is me

Zakim IRC Bot: one of those is me

15:01:55 <Zakim> +tlebo

Zakim IRC Bot: +tlebo

15:02:01 <GK> zakim, one of those is me :)

Graham Klyne: zakim, one of those is me :)

15:02:01 <Zakim> I'm glad that smiley is there, GK

Zakim IRC Bot: I'm glad that smiley is there, GK

15:02:11 <Zakim> +??P44

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P44

15:02:13 <Zakim> -??P35

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P35

15:02:22 <Zakim> +??P39

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P39

15:02:25 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P44 is probably me

Daniel Garijo: Zakim, ??P44 is probably me

15:02:28 <stain> Zakim, who is being noisy?

Zakim, who is being noisy?

15:02:34 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo

Zakim IRC Bot: +Satya_Sahoo

15:02:38 <Zakim> -??P38

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P38

15:02:40 <Zakim> +dgarijo?; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +dgarijo?; got it

15:02:42 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, stain.

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand your question, stain.

15:02:52 <Zakim> +Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro

15:02:53 <dgarijo> Zakim, who is noisy

Daniel Garijo: Zakim, who is noisy

15:02:56 <Zakim> +??P10

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P10

15:02:59 <jun> zakim, ??P38 is me

Jun Zhao: zakim, ??P38 is me

15:03:09 <jun> zakim, ??P10 is me

Jun Zhao: zakim, ??P10 is me

15:03:13 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is noisy', dgarijo

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'who is noisy', dgarijo

15:03:14 <Zakim> +??P17

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P17

15:03:16 <Zakim> I already had ??P38 as ??P38, jun

Zakim IRC Bot: I already had ??P38 as ??P38, jun

15:03:18 <Zakim> +??P8

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P8

15:03:20 <Zakim> +jun; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jun; got it

15:03:24 <Zakim> +??P34

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P34

15:03:28 <stain> at some point z knew my number..

at some point z knew my number..

15:03:34 <GK> zakim, ??p17 is me (I think)

Graham Klyne: zakim, ??p17 is me (I think)

15:03:34 <Zakim> I don't understand '??p17 is me (I think)', GK

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand '??p17 is me (I think)', GK

15:03:38 <pgroth> Topic: Admin

1. Admin

15:03:42 <kai> zakim, ??P34 is probably me.

Kai Eckert: zakim, ??P34 is probably me.

15:03:42 <Zakim> +kai?; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +kai?; got it

15:03:42 <stain> pgroth: lots to talk about today

Paul Groth: lots to talk about today

15:03:45 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-04-26

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-04-26

15:03:54 <GK> zakim, who is on the call?

Graham Klyne: zakim, who is on the call?

15:03:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see +49.674.180.aaaa, TomDN, ??P31, Curt_Tilmes, ??P37, ??P28, tlebo, dgarijo?, ??P39, Satya_Sahoo, Sandro, jun, ??P17, ??P8, kai?

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see +49.674.180.aaaa, TomDN, ??P31, Curt_Tilmes, ??P37, ??P28, tlebo, dgarijo?, ??P39, Satya_Sahoo, Sandro, jun, ??P17, ??P8, kai?

15:04:01 <pgroth> Minutes of the April 26 2012 Telecon

Paul Groth: Minutes of the April 26 2012 Telecon

15:04:05 <dgarijo> +1

Daniel Garijo: +1

15:04:07 <TomDN> +1

Tom De Nies: +1

15:04:07 <stain> pgroth: Approve minutes?

Paul Groth: Approve minutes?

15:04:08 <GK> zakim, ??p17 is me

Graham Klyne: zakim, ??p17 is me

15:04:08 <Zakim> +GK; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +GK; got it

15:04:08 <stain> +1

+1

15:04:10 <tlebo> +1

Timothy Lebo: +1

15:04:12 <Paolo> +1

Paolo Missier: +1

15:04:15 <Curt> +1

Curt Tilmes: +1

15:04:20 <kai> +0 (wasn't there)

Kai Eckert: +0 (wasn't there)

15:04:27 <smiles> +1

Simon Miles: +1

15:04:31 <satya> 0 (didn't attend)

Satya Sahoo: 0 (didn't attend)

15:04:37 <GK> +1

Graham Klyne: +1

15:04:37 <Zakim> + +44.131.467.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +44.131.467.aabb

15:04:37 <zednik> +1

Stephan Zednik: +1

15:04:48 <pgroth> Accepted: Minutes of the April 26 2012 Telecon

RESOLVED: Minutes of the April 26 2012 Telecon

15:04:49 <Zakim> +[OpenLink]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[OpenLink]

15:04:54 <stain> APPROVED

APPROVED

15:05:01 <MacTed> Zakim, [OpenLink] is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, [OpenLink] is temporarily me

15:05:02 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

15:05:03 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:05:03 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

15:05:06 <stain> pgroth: not reviewing action items now, we'll look at those later

Paul Groth: not reviewing action items now, we'll look at those later

15:05:19 <stain> pgroth: would hope to get scribes before the day of the telcon!

Paul Groth: would hope to get scribes before the day of the telcon!

15:05:23 <pgroth> Topic: Release of Documents

2. Release of Documents

Summary: Congratulations to the group for publication of 5 working drafts. Blog posts were drafted to go together with the announcement. Actions were created to announce the publication of these drafts to various mailing lists as well as the connection task force's community.

<pgroth> Summary: Congratulations to the group for publication of 5 working drafts. Blog posts were drafted to go together with the announcement. Actions were created to announce the publication of these drafts to various mailing lists as well as the connection task force's community.
15:05:57 <stain> pgroth: all documents available and published now - thanks everyone

Paul Groth: all documents available and published now - thanks everyone

15:06:04 <stain> pgroth: see http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.05.03#Release_of_Documents

Paul Groth: see http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.05.03#Release_of_Documents

15:06:15 <stain> pgroth: http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-primer/

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-primer/

15:06:16 <stain> http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-o/

http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-o/

15:06:16 <stain> http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-dm/

http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-dm/

15:06:16 <stain> http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-n/

http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-n/

15:06:17 <stain> http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-constraints/

http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-constraints/

15:06:25 <stain> pgroth: now, how to announce this and promote this

Paul Groth: now, how to announce this and promote this

15:06:42 <stain> pgroth: action items on announcement of documents

Paul Groth: action items on announcement of documents

15:06:48 <Zakim> +??P33

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P33

15:06:54 <stain> pgroth: one action on pgroth was to make a general blog post - DONE

Paul Groth: one action on pgroth was to make a general blog post - DONE

15:07:08 <stain> pgroth: one on Jun to prepare a PROV-O blogpost, done with Stian

Paul Groth: one on Jun to prepare a PROV-O blogpost, done with Stian

15:07:09 <jun> done that with Stian

Jun Zhao: done that with Stian

15:07:23 <stain> pgroth: and last a post around DM

Paul Groth: and last a post around DM

15:07:30 <stain> Luc: Drafted - will finalize it tonight, finish tomorrow

Luc Moreau: Drafted - will finalize it tonight, finish tomorrow

15:07:41 <stain> pgroth: wanted to talk a little bit about when we want to publish this together

Paul Groth: wanted to talk a little bit about when we want to publish this together

15:07:53 <stain> pgroth: we want the overral view and things in order

Paul Groth: we want the overral view and things in order

15:08:03 <stain> Luc: would assume the other two blog posts were published! Need their URLs..

Luc Moreau: would assume the other two blog posts were published! Need their URLs..

15:08:16 <stain> pgroth: I will post PROv-O blog and update its links - share it with you

Paul Groth: I will post PROv-O blog and update its links - share it with you

15:08:20 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:08:32 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:08:38 <stain> pgroth: any questions on the announcements?

Paul Groth: any questions on the announcements?

15:08:47 <stain> pgroth: semantic activity news - will also be on w3c main site

Paul Groth: semantic activity news - will also be on w3c main site

15:09:03 <stain> q+ what about various mailing lists?

q+ what about various mailing lists?

15:09:10 <stain> +q what about various mailing lists?

+q what about various mailing lists?

15:09:13 <stain> whatever!

whatever!

15:09:26 <stain> Luc: to email various participants

Luc Moreau: to email various participants

15:09:35 <stain> pgroth: that's next on the agenda!

Paul Groth: that's next on the agenda!

15:09:38 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:10:25 <stain> Stian: What about various mailing lists like semweb- lifesciences etc

Stian Soiland-Reyes: What about various mailing lists like semweb- lifesciences etc

15:10:29 <satya> I can do W3C HCLS and ACM SIGHIT

Satya Sahoo: I can do W3C HCLS and ACM SIGHIT

15:10:34 <stain> pgroth: happy to announce on semantic web mailing list and dagstuhl

Paul Groth: happy to announce on semantic web mailing list and dagstuhl

15:10:44 <pgroth> action paul to send to semweb and dagstuhl mailing lists

Paul Groth: action paul to send to semweb and dagstuhl mailing lists

15:10:44 <trackbot> Created ACTION-83 - Send to semweb and dagstuhl mailing lists [on Paul Groth - due 2012-05-10].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-83 - Send to semweb and dagstuhl mailing lists [on Paul Groth - due 2012-05-10].

15:11:11 <stain> action satya announce PROV to W3C HCLS and ACM SIGHIT

action satya announce PROV to W3C HCLS and ACM SIGHIT

15:11:12 <trackbot> Created ACTION-84 - Announce PROV to W3C HCLS and ACM SIGHIT [on Satya Sahoo - due 2012-05-10].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-84 - Announce PROV to W3C HCLS and ACM SIGHIT [on Satya Sahoo - due 2012-05-10].

15:11:14 <pgroth> action satay w3c hcls arm and acm sighit

Paul Groth: action satay w3c hcls arm and acm sighit

15:11:14 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - satay

Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - satay

15:11:33 <stain> Satya to wait for pgroth's email and copy from there

Satya to wait for pgroth's email and copy from there

15:11:42 <pgroth> action satya w3c hcls and arm sigit

Paul Groth: action satya w3c hcls and arm sigit

15:11:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-85 - W3c hcls and arm sigit [on Satya Sahoo - due 2012-05-10].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-85 - W3c hcls and arm sigit [on Satya Sahoo - due 2012-05-10].

15:12:00 <jun> pub-lod?

Jun Zhao: pub-lod?

15:12:03 <Paolo> there are project lists -- Wf4Ever, DataONE

Paolo Missier: there are project lists -- Wf4Ever, DataONE

15:12:03 <stain> pgroth: other mailing lists?

Paul Groth: other mailing lists?

15:12:06 <Paolo> I can do both

Paolo Missier: I can do both

15:12:13 <stain> ((?) could not hear you properly )

((?) could not hear you properly )

15:12:18 <pgroth> action sandro to send to w3c mailing lists

Paul Groth: action sandro to send to w3c mailing lists

15:12:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-86 - Send to w3c mailing lists [on Sandro Hawke - due 2012-05-10].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-86 - Send to w3c mailing lists [on Sandro Hawke - due 2012-05-10].

15:12:35 <pgroth> action paolo mail to wf4ever and dataone

Paul Groth: action paolo mail to wf4ever and dataone

15:12:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-87 - Mail to wf4ever and dataone [on Paolo Missier - due 2012-05-10].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-87 - Mail to wf4ever and dataone [on Paolo Missier - due 2012-05-10].

15:12:44 <stain> I can post it in G+ ;)

I can post it in G+ ;)

15:12:45 <jun> why don't you do that?

Jun Zhao: why don't you do that?

15:12:54 <Paolo> there is still a provenance-challenge list, right?

Paolo Missier: there is still a provenance-challenge list, right?

15:12:55 <GK> Sandro said he'd notify other RDF WGs within W3C (RDF, SPARQL, etc)

Graham Klyne: Sandro said he'd notify other RDF WGs within W3C (RDF, SPARQL, etc)

15:13:02 <Paolo> or is it just us :-)

Paolo Missier: or is it just us :-)

15:13:03 <GK> (@stian^^)

Graham Klyne: (@stian^^)

15:13:06 <stain> @GK thnx

@GK thnx

15:13:46 <stain> pgroth: we've identified people who are interested in the spec, from Connecting taskforce - who is leading that now? Stephan?

Paul Groth: we've identified people who are interested in the spec, from Connecting taskforce - who is leading that now? Stephan?

15:13:59 <stain> stephenc: (?) tech list

Stephen Cresswell: (?) tech list

15:14:10 <stain> stephenc: a survey, did not think of it as a connection taskforce..

Stephen Cresswell: a survey, did not think of it as a connection taskforce..

15:14:19 <stain> pgroth: would they get this already through the mailing lists?

Paul Groth: would they get this already through the mailing lists?

15:14:27 <stain> stephenc: will send an email to people who said they were interested

Stephen Cresswell: will send an email to people who said they were interested

15:14:29 <GK> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Connection_Task_Force is not test case TF

Graham Klyne: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Connection_Task_Force is not test case TF

15:14:31 <pgroth> action stepenc to send email to stockholders

Paul Groth: action stepenc to send email to stockholders

15:14:31 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - stepenc

Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - zednik

15:14:38 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:14:55 <zednik> s/stepenc/zednik
15:14:55 <pgroth> Topic: PAQ

3. PAQ

Summary: Presentation on editorial changes to e PAQ. The correct url for the proposed release could not be found so the vote was delayed until the next call so that the url could be distributed.

<pgroth> Summary: Presentation on editorial changes to e PAQ. The correct url for the proposed release could not be found so the vote was delayed until the next call so that the url could be distributed.
15:15:00 <GK> ... which is http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Implementation_and_Test_Cases_Task_Force

Graham Klyne: ... which is http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Implementation_and_Test_Cases_Task_Force

15:15:13 <stephenc> @stain - that was zednik, not stephenc

Stephen Cresswell: @stain - that was zednik, not stephenc

15:15:15 <stain> is http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/paq/working/prov-aq.html the right URI?

is http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/paq/working/prov-aq.html the right URI?

15:15:23 <stain> GK: no changes since last meeting

Graham Klyne: no changes since last meeting

15:15:34 <stain> ... feedback from Olaf, happy with changes. No objections on mailing list

... feedback from Olaf, happy with changes. No objections on mailing list

15:15:55 <stain> ... lurking in the back are some other issues I've not tracked down, but don't think any blockers

... lurking in the back are some other issues I've not tracked down, but don't think any blockers

15:16:11 <stain> pgroth: I've received comments from Luc that needs to be done, but all minor

Paul Groth: I've received comments from Luc that needs to be done, but all minor

15:16:17 <stain> (not minor?)

(not minor?)

15:16:30 <stain> GK: addressed editorial stuff that came up on mailing lists, and a couple of issues mentioned there

Graham Klyne: addressed editorial stuff that came up on mailing lists, and a couple of issues mentioned there

15:16:41 <stain> pgroth: we are in a position that we can release a working draft

Paul Groth: we are in a position that we can release a working draft

15:16:46 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:16:53 <pgroth> Proposal: to release PAQ as a working draft

PROPOSED: to release PAQ as a working draft

15:16:56 <stain> q+

q+

15:17:16 <Zakim> -??P8

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P8

15:17:25 <stain> stain: which url?

Stian Soiland-Reyes: which url?

15:17:27 <stain> so that's http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/paq/prov-aq.html

so that's http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/paq/prov-aq.html

15:17:33 <pgroth> ack stain

Paul Groth: ack stain

15:17:39 <stain> it claims: "PROV-DM, the PROV data model for provenance (this document),"

it claims: "PROV-DM, the PROV data model for provenance (this document),"

15:17:40 <Zakim> +??P8

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P8

15:17:45 <stain> GK has last edited /working/prov-aq.html

GK has last edited /working/prov-aq.html

15:17:52 <GK> zakim, ??p8 is me

Graham Klyne: zakim, ??p8 is me

15:17:52 <Zakim> +GK; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +GK; got it

15:17:54 <pgroth> hello

Paul Groth: hello

15:18:04 <stain> SCRIBE DROPPED OUT - backup scribe please

SCRIBE DROPPED OUT - backup scribe please

15:18:21 <smiles> ok, I'll scribe

Simon Miles: ok, I'll scribe

15:18:23 <Zakim> +??P11

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P11

15:18:24 <pgroth> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/paq/prov-aq.html

Paul Groth: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/paq/prov-aq.html

15:18:25 <stain> I'm back

I'm back

15:18:30 <satya> pgroth: Which is the correct URL?

Paul Groth: Which is the correct URL? [ Scribe Assist by Satya Sahoo ]

15:18:31 <Zakim> -??P28

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P28

15:18:43 <stain> perhaps we need to sort out which document we are going to release.. ;)

perhaps we need to sort out which document we are going to release.. ;)

15:19:28 <stain> GK: need to check this for a couple of minutes, and come back in the chatlog with the right URI

Graham Klyne: need to check this for a couple of minutes, and come back in the chatlog with the right URI

15:19:41 <stain> @GK in Mercurial, pgroth last edited /paq/ and you edited /paq/working/

@GK in Mercurial, pgroth last edited /paq/ and you edited /paq/working/

15:19:56 <pgroth> Topic: Dublin Core Best Practice

4. Dublin Core Best Practice

Summary: A summary and timetable for dublin core best practices were given. The collaborative document was being hosted on github so that the dublin core participants and W3C participants could work together. It was suggested to move this to the W3C for reasons around intellectual property and invite the dublin core participants to be invited experts. A quick release of the mapping to dublin core was encouraged, in particular, before the next face-to-face meeting.

<pgroth> Summary: A summary and timetable for dublin core best practices were given. The collaborative document was being hosted on github so that the dublin core participants and W3C participants could work together. It was suggested to move this to the W3C for reasons around intellectual property and invite the dublin core participants to be invited experts. A quick release of the mapping to dublin core was encouraged, in particular, before the next face-to-face meeting.
15:20:04 <stain> Kai/Simon/Daniel?

Kai/Simon/Daniel?

15:20:19 <stain> Zakim, who is on the call

Zakim, who is on the call

15:20:19 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the call', stain

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'who is on the call', stain

15:20:19 <dgarijo> @Kai, do you give the update or shall i?

Daniel Garijo: @Kai, do you give the update or shall i?

15:20:31 <kai> Can you hear me?

Kai Eckert: Can you hear me?

15:20:33 <stain> no

no

15:20:34 <pgroth> no

Paul Groth: no

15:20:42 <MacTed> (action wasn't created above...  zednik to send email to stockholders [or is that stakeholders?])

Ted Thibodeau: (action wasn't created above... zednik to send email to stockholders [or is that stakeholders?])

15:20:45 <kai> Daniel, can you jump in?

Kai Eckert: Daniel, can you jump in?

15:20:51 <TomDN> Zakim, who is on the phone?

Tom De Nies: Zakim, who is on the phone?

15:20:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see +49.674.180.aaaa, TomDN, ??P31, Curt_Tilmes, ??P37, tlebo, dgarijo?, ??P39, Satya_Sahoo, Sandro, jun, GK, kai?, +44.131.467.aabb, MacTed (muted), ??P33, GK.a

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see +49.674.180.aaaa, TomDN, ??P31, Curt_Tilmes, ??P37, tlebo, dgarijo?, ??P39, Satya_Sahoo, Sandro, jun, GK, kai?, +44.131.467.aabb, MacTed (muted), ??P33, GK.a

15:20:55 <Zakim> ... ??P11

Zakim IRC Bot: ... ??P11

15:20:55 <GK> PAQ URI should be http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/ba89f8345d59/paq/working/prov-aq.html

Graham Klyne: PAQ URI should be http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/ba89f8345d59/paq/working/prov-aq.html

15:20:56 <dgarijo> sure

Daniel Garijo: sure

15:21:01 <zednik> @MacTed stakeholders

Stephan Zednik: @MacTed stakeholders

15:21:15 <stain> dgarijo: I've been away this week, but catched up with Kai

Daniel Garijo: I've been away this week, but catched up with Kai

15:21:15 <MacTed> action zednik to send email to stakeholders

Ted Thibodeau: action zednik to send email to stakeholders

15:21:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-88 - Send email to stakeholders [on Stephan Zednik - due 2012-05-10].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-88 - Send email to stakeholders [on Stephan Zednik - due 2012-05-10].

15:21:16 <kai> Thanks.

Kai Eckert: Thanks.

15:21:18 <stain> dgarijo: a small time table

Daniel Garijo: a small time table

15:21:26 <dgarijo> https://github.com/dcmi/DC-PROV-Mapping/wiki/Mapping-overview

Daniel Garijo: https://github.com/dcmi/DC-PROV-Mapping/wiki/Mapping-overview

15:21:37 <stain> dgarijo: first, write down mappings we did at dagstuhl (link above)

Daniel Garijo: first, write down mappings we did at dagstuhl (link above)

15:21:52 <stain> dgarijo: in github so everyone can update and check

Daniel Garijo: in github so everyone can update and check

15:22:20 <stain> dgarijo: plan to develop some (?) with mappings we have in wiki page, stage 1 of mapping - the simple statements, but not missing statements from many different dublin core terms

Daniel Garijo: plan to develop some (?) with mappings we have in wiki page, stage 1 of mapping - the simple statements, but not missing statements from many different dublin core terms

15:22:25 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's noisy?

15:22:35 <stain> dgarijo: SPARQL CONSTRUCT queries

Daniel Garijo: SPARQL CONSTRUCT queries

15:22:36 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +49.674.180.aaaa (37%), dgarijo? (61%)

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +49.674.180.aaaa (37%), dgarijo? (61%)

15:22:46 <stain> dgarijo: put examples in wiki that can be reviewed - to be done over the next 2 weeks

Daniel Garijo: put examples in wiki that can be reviewed - to be done over the next 2 weeks

15:22:56 <MacTed> Zakim, mute aaaa

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute aaaa

15:22:56 <Zakim> +49.674.180.aaaa should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: +49.674.180.aaaa should now be muted

15:23:02 <stain> dgarijo: after Kai has finished Masters' thesis we'll come up with an actual implementation to do it automatically

Daniel Garijo: after Kai has finished Masters' thesis we'll come up with an actual implementation to do it automatically

15:23:10 <MacTed> sorry -- the echoes are VERY hard to process thru

Ted Thibodeau: sorry -- the echoes are VERY hard to process thru

15:23:14 <stain> dgarijo: that's all

Daniel Garijo: that's all

15:23:20 <pgroth> Zakim, unmute aaaa

Paul Groth: Zakim, unmute aaaa

15:23:20 <Zakim> +49.674.180.aaaa should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: +49.674.180.aaaa should no longer be muted

15:23:30 <kai> My question is, do we need a text and until when?

Kai Eckert: My question is, do we need a text and until when?

15:23:32 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:23:43 <stain> pgroth: sounds reasonable plan, any comments?

Paul Groth: sounds reasonable plan, any comments?

15:23:49 <kai> q+ to ask for a deadline for some text.

Kai Eckert: q+ to ask for a deadline for some text.

15:24:01 <MacTed> Zakim, aaaa is pgroth

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, aaaa is pgroth

15:24:01 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pgroth; got it

15:24:03 <pgroth> Zakim, mute aaaa

Paul Groth: Zakim, mute aaaa

15:24:03 <Zakim> sorry, pgroth, I do not know which phone connection belongs to aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, pgroth, I do not know which phone connection belongs to aaaa

15:24:04 <kai> u can't hear me unfortunately

Kai Eckert: u can't hear me unfortunately

15:24:13 <MacTed> Zakim, mute pgroth

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute pgroth

15:24:13 <Zakim> pgroth should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should now be muted

15:24:15 <MacTed> :-)

Ted Thibodeau: :-)

15:24:18 <kai> For some report text!

Kai Eckert: For some report text!

15:24:21 <stain> dgarijo: will there be any deadline for this task?

Daniel Garijo: will there be any deadline for this task?

15:24:25 <pgroth> Zakim, unmute pgroth

Paul Groth: Zakim, unmute pgroth

15:24:25 <Zakim> pgroth should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should no longer be muted

15:24:27 <kai> Or is the technical mapping enough?

Kai Eckert: Or is the technical mapping enough?

15:24:43 <stain> pgroth: no hard deadlines, but really important part of specifications. Typical questions we get lot

Paul Groth: no hard deadlines, but really important part of specifications. Typical questions we get lot

15:24:46 <stain> relations to Dublin Core

relations to Dublin Core

15:24:59 <stain> pgroth: would be good to get an idea of how long it would take you to do something

Paul Groth: would be good to get an idea of how long it would take you to do something

15:25:10 <stain> pgroth: I don't know how much you want to spend on this..

Paul Groth: I don't know how much you want to spend on this..

15:25:18 <Luc> when would you like to release something internally, for us to review?

Luc Moreau: when would you like to release something internally, for us to review?

15:25:24 <GK> Audio is cutting in and out - is it just me?

Graham Klyne: Audio is cutting in and out - is it just me?

15:25:27 <stain> pgroth: we should be at a good state to talk about this for the F2F #3 in June

Paul Groth: we should be at a good state to talk about this for the F2F #3 in June

15:25:30 <pgroth> Zakim, mute pgroth

Paul Groth: Zakim, mute pgroth

15:25:30 <Zakim> pgroth should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should now be muted

15:25:33 <stain> but what is your time frame?

but what is your time frame?

15:25:36 <kai> Ok, then we focus on the technical mapping and I assume that we document it afterwards.

Kai Eckert: Ok, then we focus on the technical mapping and I assume that we document it afterwards.

15:25:43 <stain> dgarijo: will try to have something for review as soon as possible

Daniel Garijo: will try to have something for review as soon as possible

15:25:43 <pgroth> Zakim, unmute pgroth

Paul Groth: Zakim, unmute pgroth

15:25:43 <Zakim> pgroth should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should no longer be muted

15:25:51 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:25:52 <kai> Technical mapping should be available end of June.

Kai Eckert: Technical mapping should be available end of June.

15:25:53 <pgroth> ack kai

Paul Groth: ack kai

15:25:53 <Zakim> kai, you wanted to ask for a deadline for some text.

Zakim IRC Bot: kai, you wanted to ask for a deadline for some text.

15:26:22 <stain> pgroth: question: Do you think, github as a place to manage these drafts.. because of need to work with dublin core people?

Paul Groth: question: Do you think, github as a place to manage these drafts.. because of need to work with dublin core people?

15:26:22 <kai> Yes

Kai Eckert: Yes

15:26:31 <stain> dgarijo: yes, a place where we can all edit the wiki

Daniel Garijo: yes, a place where we can all edit the wiki

15:26:45 <kai> But we will make sure to transfer everything to W3C

Kai Eckert: But we will make sure to transfer everything to W3C

15:26:52 <stain>  Michael X to edit it, he's not in the W3C

Michael X to edit it, he's not in the W3C

15:27:06 <stain> can we add him as an invited expert to the group?

can we add him as an invited expert to the group?

15:27:08 <pgroth> Zakim, mute pgroth

Paul Groth: Zakim, mute pgroth

15:27:08 <Zakim> pgroth should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should now be muted

15:27:10 <dgarijo> Michael Panzer (he was in the incubator)

Daniel Garijo: Michael Panzer (he was in the incubator)

15:27:11 <stain> agreements on copyright, etc

agreements on copyright, etc

15:27:14 <Zakim> -??P37

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P37

15:27:22 <pgroth> Zakim, unmute pgroth

Paul Groth: Zakim, unmute pgroth

15:27:22 <Zakim> pgroth should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should no longer be muted

15:27:26 <MacTed> +1 IE invitation -- IPR, editing version history is preserved, etc.

Ted Thibodeau: +1 IE invitation -- IPR, editing version history is preserved, etc.

15:27:28 <stain> would avoid any intellectual property issues

would avoid any intellectual property issues

15:27:34 <stain> who was last speaker?

who was last speaker?

15:27:37 <kai> Of course

Kai Eckert: Of course

15:27:40 <jun> test test

Jun Zhao: test test

15:27:49 <tlebo> @stian, sandro

Timothy Lebo: @stian, sandro

15:27:51 <pgroth> Zakim, mute pgroth

Paul Groth: Zakim, mute pgroth

15:27:51 <Zakim> pgroth should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should now be muted

15:28:00 <stain> sandro: not particularly unusual to join for such a reason

Sandro Hawke: not particularly unusual to join for such a reason

15:28:05 <Zakim> +??P3

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P3

15:28:06 <stain> ^^ ?2 is sandro

^^ ?2 is sandro

15:28:08 <pgroth> Zakim, unmute pgroth

Paul Groth: Zakim, unmute pgroth

15:28:08 <Zakim> pgroth should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should no longer be muted

15:28:31 <stain> pgroth: would be best to keep contributions on w3c site for Intellectual property reasons

Paul Groth: would be best to keep contributions on w3c site for Intellectual property reasons

15:28:32 <dgarijo> ok, thanks.

Daniel Garijo: ok, thanks.

15:28:40 <stain> (action on ? to invite?)

(action on ? to invite?)

15:28:45 <Zakim> +??P2

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2

15:28:51 <GK> I seem to be having problems with audio, chat and w3c wiki access... problems with MIT network?

Graham Klyne: I seem to be having problems with audio, chat and w3c wiki access... problems with MIT network?

15:28:53 <pgroth> Topic: Definition of Alternate and Specialization

5. Definition of Alternate and Specialization

Summary: the group voted on revised versions of definitions for entity, alternate and specialization. These definitions were accepted.

<pgroth> Summary: the group voted on revised versions of definitions for entity, alternate and specialization. These definitions were accepted.
15:29:05 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/SpecializationAlternateDefinitions#Definitions_13_.28refinement_of_12.29

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/SpecializationAlternateDefinitions#Definitions_13_.28refinement_of_12.29

15:29:16 <stain> AGREED to invite Michael Panzer as invited expert

AGREED to invite Michael Panzer as invited expert

15:29:23 <stain> pgroth: we wanted a vote on that

Paul Groth: we wanted a vote on that

15:29:40 <stain> pgroth: two options.. one is to include definitions as they stand in DM, and close issue

Paul Groth: two options.. one is to include definitions as they stand in DM, and close issue

15:29:46 <stain> pgroth: wrappijng it all up

Paul Groth: wrappijng it all up

15:29:52 <stain> pgroth: option 2 - drop the definitions

Paul Groth: option 2 - drop the definitions

15:30:03 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:30:06 <GK_> I'm not seeing chat on IRC ..

Graham Klyne: I'm not seeing chat on IRC ..

15:30:11 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:30:21 <GK_> .. only on web ... ah it's back aginb

Graham Klyne: .. only on web ... ah it's back aginb

15:30:25 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:30:27 <stain> any questions? No..

any questions? No..

15:30:41 <stain> pgroth: go to vote on option 1

Paul Groth: go to vote on option 1

15:30:47 <JimMcCusker> +1

James McCusker: +1

15:30:47 <pgroth> Option 1: Include proposed definitions in prov-dm document and close issue on alternate/specialization

Paul Groth: Option 1: Include proposed definitions in prov-dm document and close issue on alternate/specialization

15:30:54 <TomDN> +1

Tom De Nies: +1

15:30:54 <Curt> +1

Curt Tilmes: +1

15:30:55 <Paolo> +1

Paolo Missier: +1

15:30:56 <stain> PROPOSED

PROPOSED

15:30:57 <stephenc> +1

Stephen Cresswell: +1

15:30:57 <tlebo> +1

Timothy Lebo: +1

15:30:59 <stain> +1

+1

15:31:01 <smiles> +1

Simon Miles: +1

15:31:03 <zednik> +1

Stephan Zednik: +1

15:31:06 <jcheney> +1

James Cheney: +1

15:31:07 <MacTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

15:31:08 <jun> +1

Jun Zhao: +1

15:31:13 <Luc> PROPOSED: Option 1: Include proposed definitions in prov-dm document and close issue on alternate/specialization

PROPOSED: Option 1: Include proposed definitions in prov-dm document and close issue on alternate/specialization

15:31:15 <satya> +0.5

Satya Sahoo: +0.5

15:31:35 <GK> +0 (not wild about having to escape URIs)

Graham Klyne: +0 (not wild about having to escape URIs)

15:31:36 <Luc> graham?

Luc Moreau: graham?

15:31:42 <GK> .. (but not objecting)

Graham Klyne: .. (but not objecting)

15:31:43 <kai> +0

Kai Eckert: +0

15:31:55 <stain> for reference:

for reference:

15:31:55 <stain> * An entity is a physical, digital, conceptual, or other kind of thing with some fixed aspects. Entities may be real or imaginary

* An entity is a physical, digital, conceptual, or other kind of thing with some fixed aspects. Entities may be real or imaginary

15:31:58 <stain> * Two alternate entities present aspects of the same thing. These aspects may be the same or different, and the alternate entities may or may not overlap in time

* Two alternate entities present aspects of the same thing. These aspects may be the same or different, and the alternate entities may or may not overlap in time

15:32:01 <stain> * An entity that is a specialization of another entity shares all aspects of the latter, and additionally presents more specific aspects of the same thing as the latter. In particular, the lifetime of the specialized entity contains that of any specialization

* An entity that is a specialization of another entity shares all aspects of the latter, and additionally presents more specific aspects of the same thing as the latter. In particular, the lifetime of the specialized entity contains that of any specialization

15:32:21 <pgroth> Accepted: Option 1 include proposed definitions in prov-dm document and close issue on alternate/specialization

RESOLVED: Option 1 include proposed definitions in prov-dm document and close issue on alternate/specialization

15:32:31 <stain> pgroth: thanks, now we can consider option 2!

Paul Groth: thanks, now we can consider option 2!

15:32:34 <stain> ;)

;)

15:32:38 <pgroth> Topic: Responsibility

6. Responsibility

Summary: a proposal was put forward to make derivation independent of the agents/responsibility component of the data model. This proposal was accepted.

<pgroth> Summary: a proposal was put forward to make derivation independent of the agents/responsibility component of the data model. This proposal was accepted.
15:33:01 <stain> Luc to give an overview of what to do about responsibility

Luc to give an overview of what to do about responsibility

15:33:06 <stain> Luc: in DM we have a component on Derivation

Luc Moreau: in DM we have a component on Derivation

15:33:20 <stain> Luc: that has got wasDerivedFrom and 3 sub-types (more or less)

Luc Moreau: that has got wasDerivedFrom and 3 sub-types (more or less)

15:33:30 <stain> Luc: and separate component on Agent and Responsibility

Luc Moreau: and separate component on Agent and Responsibility

15:33:42 <stain> Luc: but they are not all orthagonal - some derivation relations that refer to agents

Luc Moreau: but they are not all orthagonal - some derivation relations that refer to agents

15:33:52 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:33:54 <stain> Luc: an agent that is responsible for making the revision

Luc Moreau: an agent that is responsible for making the revision

15:34:03 <stain> Luc: or an agent that is doing the quote, who produced the original entity

Luc Moreau: or an agent that is doing the quote, who produced the original entity

15:34:10 <stain> Luc: some discussion on mailing list

Luc Moreau: some discussion on mailing list

15:34:26 <stain> Luc: for simplicitation, it would be good to make derivation independent of agents/responsibility

Luc Moreau: for simplicitation, it would be good to make derivation independent of agents/responsibility

15:34:37 <Luc> PROPOSED: drop the reference to agents in derivation relations.

PROPOSED: drop the reference to agents in derivation relations.

15:34:50 <dgarijo> +1

Daniel Garijo: +1

15:35:09 <stain> Luc: but if you really want to express responsibility? Then you would use attribution in addition to say the wasrevisionof relation

Luc Moreau: but if you really want to express responsibility? Then you would use attribution in addition to say the wasrevisionof relation

15:35:15 <stain> Luc: would simplify both model and ontology

Luc Moreau: would simplify both model and ontology

15:35:23 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:35:23 <Curt> +1

Curt Tilmes: +1

15:35:31 <stain> q+

q+

15:35:51 <pgroth> ack stain

Paul Groth: ack stain

15:36:16 <dgarijo> Stian: so we no longer have hadQuoter and hadQuotee?

Stian Soiland-Reyes: so we no longer have hadQuoter and hadQuotee? [ Scribe Assist by Daniel Garijo ]

15:36:24 <dgarijo> Luc: no

Luc Moreau: no [ Scribe Assist by Daniel Garijo ]

15:36:59 <stain> Luc: so you would attribution instead

Luc Moreau: so you would attribution instead

15:37:02 <dgarijo> Luc: Instead of having quoter you could use attribution

Luc Moreau: Instead of having quoter you could use attribution [ Scribe Assist by Daniel Garijo ]

15:37:09 <TomDN> +1 seems more elegant, and also fits better when asserting what we used to call "imprecise" provenance

Tom De Nies: +1 seems more elegant, and also fits better when asserting what we used to call "imprecise" provenance

15:37:38 <zednik> q+

Stephan Zednik: q+

15:37:50 <MacTed> is there a link to the segment being discussed?

Ted Thibodeau: is there a link to the segment being discussed?

15:38:01 <TomDN> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/368

Tom De Nies: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/368

15:38:04 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/368

Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/368

15:38:08 <MacTed> I'm having a TERRIBLE time parsing speakers who are not in the room with the speakerphone.

Ted Thibodeau: I'm having a TERRIBLE time parsing speakers who are not in the room with the speakerphone.

15:38:27 <pgroth> zakim, mute pgroth

Paul Groth: zakim, mute pgroth

15:38:27 <Zakim> pgroth should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should now be muted

15:38:32 <stain> people would then write  wasQuoteOf(theSentence, romeoAndJuliet)    wasAttributedTo(theSentence, Shakespeare)   as opposed to wasAttributedTo(theSentence, guyWhoMadeTheQuote)

people would then write wasQuoteOf(theSentence, romeoAndJuliet) wasAttributedTo(theSentence, Shakespeare) as opposed to wasAttributedTo(theSentence, guyWhoMadeTheQuote)

15:38:48 <stain> but we could add roles for quoter and quotee

but we could add roles for quoter and quotee

15:38:49 <stain> L()

L()

15:38:53 <pgroth> zakim, unmute pgroth

Paul Groth: zakim, unmute pgroth

15:38:53 <Zakim> pgroth should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should no longer be muted

15:38:58 <stain> pgroth: any other implications?

Paul Groth: any other implications?

15:39:26 <Curt> revision/quote are simply between entities instead of agents..  You can always figure out the agents from the attribution.

Curt Tilmes: revision/quote are simply between entities instead of agents.. You can always figure out the agents from the attribution.

15:39:33 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/368

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/368

15:39:36 <stain> Luc: on the examples.. they can all be expressed by the proposed changes

Luc Moreau: on the examples.. they can all be expressed by the proposed changes

15:39:38 <tlebo> +1 to proposal, hadQuoter can be modeled with Attribution with role "quoter"

Timothy Lebo: +1 to proposal, hadQuoter can be modeled with Attribution with role "quoter"

15:39:45 <stain> Luc: in issue 368

Luc Moreau: in ISSUE-368

15:39:52 <stain> (we can't resolve it as w3c is flaky)

(we can't resolve it as w3c is flaky)

15:40:09 <stain> Google Chrome could not connect to www.w3.org (!!)

Google Chrome could not connect to www.w3.org (!!)

15:40:20 <pgroth> zakim, mute pgroth

Paul Groth: zakim, mute pgroth

15:40:20 <Zakim> pgroth should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should now be muted

15:40:37 <pgroth> zakim, umute pgroth

Paul Groth: zakim, umute pgroth

15:40:37 <Zakim> I don't understand 'umute pgroth', pgroth

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'umute pgroth', pgroth

15:40:38 <stain> In the spirit of simplification, I would like to suggest that agents should not be mentioned in derivation relations.

In the spirit of simplification, I would like to suggest that agents should not be mentioned in derivation relations.

15:40:41 <stain> Instead of wasRevisionOf(id,e2,e1,ag,attrs)

Instead of wasRevisionOf(id,e2,e1,ag,attrs)

15:40:43 <stain> we should write wasRevisionOf(id,e2,e1,attrs) and  wasAttributedTo(e2,ag)

we should write wasRevisionOf(id,e2,e1,attrs) and wasAttributedTo(e2,ag)

15:40:46 <stain> Instead of wasQuotedFrom(id,e2,e1,ag2,ag1,attrs)

Instead of wasQuotedFrom(id,e2,e1,ag2,ag1,attrs)

15:40:47 <stain> we should write: wasQuotedFrom(id,e2,e1,attrs) and  wasAttributedTo(e1,ag1) and  wasAttributedTo(e2,ag2)

we should write: wasQuotedFrom(id,e2,e1,attrs) and wasAttributedTo(e1,ag1) and wasAttributedTo(e2,ag2)

15:40:57 <stain> (from Luc's email on ISSUE-368)

(from Luc's email on ISSUE-368)

15:41:06 <pgroth> PROPOSED: drop the reference to agents in derivation relations.

PROPOSED: drop the reference to agents in derivation relations.

15:41:17 <Paolo> silence...

Paolo Missier: silence...

15:41:19 <MacTed> +1 as proposed on http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/368  (which is not the same as "drop the reference to agents in derivation relations.")

Ted Thibodeau: +1 as proposed on http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/368 (which is not the same as "drop the reference to agents in derivation relations.")

15:41:21 <stain> I've not got any sound.. are anyone talking? Last one was "I got the implications now"

I've not got any sound.. are anyone talking? Last one was "I got the implications now"

15:41:24 <TomDN> +1

Tom De Nies: +1

15:41:33 <sandro> Luc ?

Sandro Hawke: Luc ?

15:41:33 <Luc> can you hear us?

Luc Moreau: can you hear us?

15:41:33 <GK> In the issue, I assume e1, e2 are entities?

Graham Klyne: In the issue, I assume e1, e2 are entities?

15:41:36 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

15:41:36 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted

15:41:37 <dgarijo> nope

Daniel Garijo: nope

15:41:39 <TomDN> Zakim, unmute pgroth

Tom De Nies: Zakim, unmute pgroth

15:41:39 <Zakim> pgroth should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should no longer be muted

15:41:41 <sandro> cant hear you luc

Sandro Hawke: cant hear you luc

15:41:45 <tlebo> +1 to proposal, since hadQuoter can be modeled with Attribution with role "quoter"

Timothy Lebo: +1 to proposal, since hadQuoter can be modeled with Attribution with role "quoter"

15:41:45 <dgarijo> yes

Daniel Garijo: yes

15:41:58 <stain> Luc and pgroth are on the same phone

Luc and pgroth are on the same phone

15:42:07 <jcheney> Speakerphone is causing everyone else to echo.

James Cheney: Speakerphone is causing everyone else to echo.

15:42:08 <stain> @tlebo agree

@tlebo agree

15:42:33 <stain> ?: Agree with text in ISSUE, but not on proposal

Ted Thibodeau: Agree with text in ISSUE, but not on proposal

15:42:40 <tlebo> @stian, MacTed

Timothy Lebo: @stian, MacTed

15:42:41 <Luc> PROPOSED: agents should not be mentioned in derivation relations.

PROPOSED: agents should not be mentioned in derivation relations.

15:42:46 <MacTed> s/?:/MacTed:/
15:43:00 <kai> @GK: same here

Kai Eckert: @GK: same here

15:43:01 <stain> can we not say 'as in ISSUE-368' ?

can we not say 'as in ISSUE-368' ?

15:43:18 <MacTed> PROPOSED: adopt changes as put forth in http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/368

PROPOSED: adopt changes as put forth in http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/368

15:43:31 <stain> ISSUE-368 can be changed, so we need to state explicitly

ISSUE-368 can be changed, so we need to state explicitly

15:43:44 <stain> Vote now please

Vote now please

15:43:44 <MacTed> s/in drop/in/

Ted Thibodeau: s/in drop/in/ (warning: replacement failed)

15:43:44 <smiles> +1

Simon Miles: +1

15:43:45 <TomDN> +1

Tom De Nies: +1

15:43:45 <stain> +1

+1

15:43:46 <MacTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

15:43:47 <satya> +1

Satya Sahoo: +1

15:43:48 <jcheney> +1

James Cheney: +1

15:43:49 <jun> +1

Jun Zhao: +1

15:43:49 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1

15:43:51 <GK> +1

Graham Klyne: +1

15:43:53 <zednik> +1

Stephan Zednik: +1

15:43:54 <dgarijo> +1

Daniel Garijo: +1

15:43:56 <Paolo> +1

Paolo Missier: +1

15:43:56 <tlebo> +1

Timothy Lebo: +1

15:43:59 <kai> +1

Kai Eckert: +1

15:44:08 <Curt> +1

Curt Tilmes: +1

15:44:12 <sandro> quoting  that issue page, for the record:

Sandro Hawke: quoting that issue page, for the record:

15:44:13 <pgroth> Accepted: adopt changes as put forth in http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/368

RESOLVED: adopt changes as put forth in http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/368

15:44:14 <sandro> In the spirit of simplification, I would like to suggest that agents should not be mentioned in derivation relations.

Sandro Hawke: In the spirit of simplification, I would like to suggest that agents should not be mentioned in derivation relations.

15:44:14 <sandro> Instead of

Sandro Hawke: Instead of

15:44:14 <sandro> wasRevisionOf(id,e2,e1,ag,attrs)

Sandro Hawke: wasRevisionOf(id,e2,e1,ag,attrs)

15:44:14 <sandro> we should write

Sandro Hawke: we should write

15:44:14 <sandro> wasRevisionOf(id,e2,e1,attrs)

Sandro Hawke: wasRevisionOf(id,e2,e1,attrs)

15:44:17 <sandro> and wasAttributedTo(e2,ag)

Sandro Hawke: and wasAttributedTo(e2,ag)

15:44:19 <sandro> Instead of

Sandro Hawke: Instead of

15:44:19 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:44:20 <sandro> wasQuotedFrom(id,e2,e1,ag2,ag1,attrs)

Sandro Hawke: wasQuotedFrom(id,e2,e1,ag2,ag1,attrs)

15:44:20 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

15:44:22 <sandro> we should write:

Sandro Hawke: we should write:

15:44:24 <sandro> wasQuotedFrom(id,e2,e1,attrs)

Sandro Hawke: wasQuotedFrom(id,e2,e1,attrs)

15:44:26 <sandro> and wasAttributedTo(e1,ag1)

Sandro Hawke: and wasAttributedTo(e1,ag1)

15:44:28 <sandro> and wasAttributedTo(e2,ag2)

Sandro Hawke: and wasAttributedTo(e2,ag2)

15:44:31 <pgroth> Topic: PROV Notation Optional Identifiers Syntax

7. PROV Notation Optional Identifiers Syntax

Summary: A discussion was had around the notation for optional identifiers used in prov-n. It was felt that there were wider issues with respect to the prov-n notation that needed to be considered. The editors were given guidance to move forward with the use of ";" as a marker for optional identifiers and based on this address other outstanding issues with respect to the syntax. Group members were then encouraged to make comments on the entirety of the revised document.

<pgroth> Summary: A discussion was had around the notation for optional identifiers used in prov-n. It was felt that there were wider issues with respect to the prov-n notation that needed to be considered. The editors were given guidance to move forward with the use of ";" as a marker for optional identifiers and based on this address other outstanding issues with respect to the syntax. Group members were then encouraged to make comments on the entirety of the revised document.
15:44:32 <sandro> We are not losing in expressivity, I believe, instead, we decouple components 2 and 3 in the data model.

Sandro Hawke: We are not losing in expressivity, I believe, instead, we decouple components 2 and 3 in the data model.

15:44:48 <stain> pgroth: PROV-N editors to summarize for us..?

Paul Groth: PROV-N editors to summarize for us..?

15:44:58 <stain> jcheney raised the issue

jcheney raised the issue

15:45:01 <pgroth> Zakim, mute pgroth

Paul Groth: Zakim, mute pgroth

15:45:01 <Zakim> pgroth should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should now be muted

15:45:14 <jcheney> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/index.php?title=OptionalSyntax

James Cheney: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/index.php?title=OptionalSyntax

15:45:18 <stain> jcheney: alternative proposals on this page

James Cheney: alternative proposals on this page

15:45:35 <stain> jcheney: some relations in PROV-N are... (?)

James Cheney: some relations in PROV-N are... (?)

15:45:40 <stain> vox dead?

vox dead?

15:45:48 <Zakim> -??P11

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P11

15:45:50 <stain> SCRIBE OFFLINE

SCRIBE OFFLINE

15:46:21 <Luc> jcheney: prov-n notation difficult to parse for humans who have not studied the grammar

James Cheney: prov-n notation difficult to parse for humans who have not studied the grammar [ Scribe Assist by Luc Moreau ]

15:46:37 <GK> jcheney: in some cases, exp[ressions are hard to parse when some optional arguments are missing

James Cheney: in some cases, exp[ressions are hard to parse when some optional arguments are missing [ Scribe Assist by Graham Klyne ]

15:46:53 <Luc> jcheney: in particular, for relations that takes an optional first identifier

James Cheney: in particular, for relations that takes an optional first identifier [ Scribe Assist by Luc Moreau ]

15:47:29 <GK> jcheney - prefer option 1 as its more similar to current syntax

Graham Klyne: jcheney - prefer option 1 as its more similar to current syntax

15:47:50 <stain> why does current syntax matter if we are proposing a solution for people who don't know syntax?

why does current syntax matter if we are proposing a solution for people who don't know syntax?

15:48:02 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

15:48:02 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted

15:48:03 <MacTed> q+

Ted Thibodeau: q+

15:48:09 <zednik> q-

Stephan Zednik: q-

15:48:11 <Zakim> +??P5

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P5

15:48:17 <stain> I' can scribe again

I' can scribe again

15:48:18 <Paolo> yes

Paolo Missier: yes

15:48:21 <pgroth> Zakim, unmute pgroth

Paul Groth: Zakim, unmute pgroth

15:48:21 <Zakim> pgroth should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should no longer be muted

15:48:52 <stain> Luc: not to make a change on PROV-N too often as we need to go through all the documents!

Luc Moreau: not to make a change on PROV-N too often as we need to go through all the documents!

15:49:01 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:49:09 <stain> jcheney: At least if we make a simple change, then.. (?)

James Cheney: At least if we make a simple change, then.. (?)

15:49:18 <pgroth> Zakim, mute pgroth

Paul Groth: Zakim, mute pgroth

15:49:18 <Zakim> pgroth should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should now be muted

15:49:25 <stain> MacTed: made a comment on this in my review of PROV-O (?)

Ted Thibodeau: made a comment on this in my review of PROV-O (?)

15:49:51 <stain> MacTed: on optional values, when they are not easilbly determinable, you need to put blanks all the time - no matter if it's comma or semicolon

Ted Thibodeau: on optional values, when they are not easilbly determinable, you need to put blanks all the time - no matter if it's comma or semicolon

15:50:08 <stain> MacTed: I would stay with comma as it is, but suggest that every expression would have at least a comma or space and a comma

Ted Thibodeau: I would stay with comma as it is, but suggest that every expression would have at least a comma or space and a comma

15:50:10 <Luc> but we allow -

Luc Moreau: but we allow -

15:50:28 <pgroth> yes

Paul Groth: yes

15:50:28 <stain> MacTed: so you would need ,, to say which optional things are left out

Ted Thibodeau: so you would need ,, to say which optional things are left out

15:50:44 <stain> jcheney: other things that seem ambigious..  namely sometimes two-three other optional arguments

James Cheney: other things that seem ambigious.. namely sometimes two-three other optional arguments

15:50:53 <stain> jcheney: this proposal is only adressing identifer being optional

James Cheney: this proposal is only adressing identifer being optional

15:50:58 <Paolo> q+

Paolo Missier: q+

15:51:13 <stain> MacTed: just adressing identifiers is not going far enough, it should be for all optionals

Ted Thibodeau: just adressing identifiers is not going far enough, it should be for all optionals

15:51:21 <stain> jcheney: other proposals would give more owkr

James Cheney: other proposals would give more owkr

15:51:22 <stain> work

work

15:51:23 <pgroth> ack MacTed

Paul Groth: ack MacTed

15:51:40 <pgroth> paolo go ahead

Paul Groth: paolo go ahead

15:51:49 <stain> jcheney: question now is to decrease the ambigioutity, and then think about further ambigiuoty

James Cheney: question now is to decrease the ambigioutity, and then think about further ambigiuoty

15:51:58 <stain> jcheney: if there's a ; - then first argument before ; is the identifier

James Cheney: if there's a ; - then first argument before ; is the identifier

15:52:22 <stain> jcheney: other ways have been discussed - not saying it's the only way, but it's the smallest change

James Cheney: other ways have been discussed - not saying it's the only way, but it's the smallest change

15:52:35 <stain> MacTed: as it's not the only problem, w hy not address the whole problem?

Ted Thibodeau: as it's not the only problem, w hy not address the whole problem?

15:52:45 <pgroth> Zakim, unmute pgroth

Paul Groth: Zakim, unmute pgroth

15:52:45 <Zakim> pgroth should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should no longer be muted

15:52:51 <stain> jcheney: not deciding on how to put these as proposals

James Cheney: not deciding on how to put these as proposals

15:52:52 <pgroth> Zakim, mute pgroth

Paul Groth: Zakim, mute pgroth

15:52:52 <Zakim> pgroth should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should now be muted

15:53:11 <stain> Paolo: the main reason why this was brought up is that several people spotted it was difficult to parse arguments with multiple optionals

Paolo Missier: the main reason why this was brought up is that several people spotted it was difficult to parse arguments with multiple optionals

15:53:21 <Luc> I believe all james suggestions are already implemented or become implementable, if we have a syntactic marker for optional identifier (such as ;)

Luc Moreau: I believe all james suggestions are already implemented or become implementable, if we have a syntactic marker for optional identifier (such as ;)

15:53:35 <stain> Paolo: identifier is odd in taht it can be optional and left out totally, while the others hate placeholder -, except the attributes that are last

Paolo Missier: identifier is odd in taht it can be optional and left out totally, while the others hate placeholder -, except the attributes that are last

15:53:47 <Luc> I believe all james suggestions are already implemented or become implementable, if we have a syntactic marker for optional identifier (such as ';' )

Luc Moreau: I believe all james suggestions are already implemented or become implementable, if we have a syntactic marker for optional identifier (such as ';' )

15:53:55 <stain> Paolo: rational was that because identifers are expected to be used barely - so a placeholder fo rthem all the time is too verbose

Paolo Missier: rational was that because identifers are expected to be used barely - so a placeholder fo rthem all the time is too verbose

15:54:02 <jcheney> @MacTed: here is the full proposal I suggested:  http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Optional_arguments

James Cheney: @MacTed: here is the full proposal I suggested: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Optional_arguments

15:54:10 <jcheney> ... the three parts are orthogonal

James Cheney: ... the three parts are orthogonal

15:54:32 <stain> Paolo: trying to retain readability - like if there's not a semicolon then there's no identifier, and other missing optionals expressed using -

Paolo Missier: trying to retain readability - like if there's not a semicolon then there's no identifier, and other missing optionals expressed using -

15:54:40 <pgroth> Zakim, unmute pgroth

Paul Groth: Zakim, unmute pgroth

15:54:40 <Zakim> pgroth should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should no longer be muted

15:54:40 <GK> Based on what Paolo says, no other changes would be needed ... or am I missing something?

Graham Klyne: Based on what Paolo says, no other changes would be needed ... or am I missing something?

15:54:52 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

15:54:55 <Paolo> @GK yes that's my implication, too

Paolo Missier: @GK yes that's my implication, too

15:55:00 <satya> @GK, agree

Satya Sahoo: @GK, agree

15:55:09 <stain> @GK that's right, I think Luc has checked that everything else uses - for intermediate optionals in examples

@GK that's right, I think Luc has checked that everything else uses - for intermediate optionals in examples

15:55:22 <pgroth> ack Paolo

Paul Groth: ack Paolo

15:55:37 <stain> ?: will we comprehend the full implications if we do it one by one

?: will we comprehend the full implications if we do it one by one

15:55:40 <stain> (MacTed?)

(MacTed?)

15:55:43 <pgroth> ack pgroth

Paul Groth: ack pgroth

15:55:47 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

15:56:06 <stain> Luc: jcheney listed another suggestion.. one was .. to see if there was an optional identifier or not

Luc Moreau: jcheney listed another suggestion.. one was .. to see if there was an optional identifier or not

15:56:18 <stain> Luc: once that is in place, there are a few tweaks that can be implemented

Luc Moreau: once that is in place, there are a few tweaks that can be implemented

15:56:31 <stain> Luc: all suggestions by jcheney will be supported (??)

Luc Moreau: all suggestions by jcheney will be supported (??)

15:56:53 <stain> Luc: a lot of work to.. want to have guidance if it's the right step

Luc Moreau: a lot of work to.. want to have guidance if it's the right step

15:57:08 <Zakim> -??P33

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P33

15:57:10 <stain> Luc: to take the optional id with semicolon - parsers that check this.. time consuming

Luc Moreau: to take the optional id with semicolon - parsers that check this.. time consuming

15:57:15 <tlebo> isn't prov-n for human readability?

Timothy Lebo: isn't prov-n for human readability?

15:57:16 <stain> Luc: if we know we don't want a certain notation

Luc Moreau: if we know we don't want a certain notation

15:57:31 <Paolo> @Luc +1

Paolo Missier: @Luc +1

15:57:34 <jcheney> q+

James Cheney: q+

15:57:45 <pgroth> Zakim, mute pgroth

Paul Groth: Zakim, mute pgroth

15:57:45 <Zakim> pgroth should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should now be muted

15:57:50 <pgroth> ack jcheney

Paul Groth: ack jcheney

15:57:51 <stain> I'm not sure what Luc is proposing - implement ALL of the proposals??

I'm not sure what Luc is proposing - implement ALL of the proposals??

15:58:13 <tlebo> +1 for that semicolon, acknowledging that it's not a "complete solution", as @macted points out.

Timothy Lebo: +1 for that semicolon, acknowledging that it's not a "complete solution", as @macted points out.

15:58:14 <stain> jcheney: is the idea now to propose one of these, or see if it's something we want to do in principle

James Cheney: is the idea now to propose one of these, or see if it's something we want to do in principle

15:58:37 <stain> jcheney: would you be happier if the proposal was not binding, but just start with this design decission, then a few others, and form a complete proposal?

James Cheney: would you be happier if the proposal was not binding, but just start with this design decission, then a few others, and form a complete proposal?

15:58:44 <stain> MacTed: not able to see what the real question is

Ted Thibodeau: not able to see what the real question is

15:59:04 <stain> MacTed: if question is - do we need to deal specifally with optional identifiers - then if ; is OK is a second question

Ted Thibodeau: if question is - do we need to deal specifally with optional identifiers - then if ; is OK is a second question

15:59:13 <Paolo> q+

Paolo Missier: q+

15:59:13 <stain> MacTed: how do we deal with optionals anywhere is a different question

Ted Thibodeau: how do we deal with optionals anywhere is a different question

15:59:18 <pgroth> Zakim, unmute pgroth

Paul Groth: Zakim, unmute pgroth

15:59:18 <Zakim> pgroth should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should no longer be muted

15:59:19 <stain> MacTed: not just for identifier

Ted Thibodeau: not just for identifier

15:59:25 <pgroth> ack Paolo

Paul Groth: ack Paolo

15:59:28 <stain> jcheney: this is strictly for optional identifier

James Cheney: this is strictly for optional identifier

15:59:32 <pgroth> Zakim, mute pgroth

Paul Groth: Zakim, mute pgroth

15:59:32 <Zakim> pgroth should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should now be muted

15:59:49 <stain> Paolo: my understanding is that the issue of identifiers separately, then everything else falls in place and no more need to do anything

Paolo Missier: my understanding is that the issue of identifiers separately, then everything else falls in place and no more need to do anything

15:59:52 <Curt> The optional identifier is special.  Almost everything allows them, but they are quite frequently not required.

Curt Tilmes: The optional identifier is special. Almost everything allows them, but they are quite frequently not required.

15:59:59 <stain> Paolo: the sooner we get a stable syntax, the better, tools are being made

Paolo Missier: the sooner we get a stable syntax, the better, tools are being made

16:00:11 <stain> Paolo: as far as I see there is no more work

Paolo Missier: as far as I see there is no more work

16:00:14 <Curt> Quite frequently not needed by a particular application/use case I mean.

Curt Tilmes: Quite frequently not needed by a particular application/use case I mean.

16:00:25 <stain> MacTed: then the other notations I would try to make sense of in PROV-O (?) would not..(?)

Ted Thibodeau: then the other notations I would try to make sense of in PROV-O (?) would not..(?)

16:00:45 <tlebo> @macted, prov-n is used in prov-o ?

Timothy Lebo: @macted, prov-n is used in prov-o ?

16:00:50 <stain> MacTed: no, Prov-N is used to understand PROv-O (??)

Ted Thibodeau: no, Prov-N is used to understand PROv-O (??)

16:00:51 <pgroth> Zakim, unmute pgroth

Paul Groth: Zakim, unmute pgroth

16:00:51 <Zakim> pgroth should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should no longer be muted

16:00:55 <stain> MacTed: there are too many optional things

Ted Thibodeau: there are too many optional things

16:00:57 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:01:03 <stain> MacTed: doing something about identifiers does not solve anything

Ted Thibodeau: doing something about identifiers does not solve anything

16:01:05 <Luc> @macted, i don't understand what you said

Luc Moreau: @macted, i don't understand what you said

16:01:10 <tlebo> q+ to ask Macted for a URL to this prov-o that uses prov-n

Timothy Lebo: q+ to ask Macted for a URL to this prov-o that uses prov-n

16:01:16 <stain> @MacTed how is PROV-O using PROV-N?

@MacTed how is PROV-O using PROV-N?

16:01:23 <Luc> @macted, i don't understand how prov-n impacts prov-o

Luc Moreau: @macted, i don't understand how prov-n impacts prov-o

16:01:23 <jcheney> @MacTed: Please read this: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Optional_arguments

James Cheney: @MacTed: Please read this: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Optional_arguments

16:01:27 <stain> MacTed: adressing all optional things would also address identifiers

Ted Thibodeau: adressing all optional things would also address identifiers

16:01:27 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

16:01:46 <stain> tlebo: confused by MacTed claiming PROV-N is used by PROV-O

Timothy Lebo: confused by MacTed claiming PROV-N is used by PROV-O

16:02:06 <pgroth> ack tlebo

Paul Groth: ack tlebo

16:02:06 <tlebo> *PROV-N is used to describe PROV-O

Timothy Lebo: *PROV-N is used to describe PROV-O

16:02:07 <Zakim> tlebo, you wanted to ask Macted for a URL to this prov-o that uses prov-n

Zakim IRC Bot: tlebo, you wanted to ask Macted for a URL to this prov-o that uses prov-n

16:02:16 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvRDF

Timothy Lebo: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvRDF

16:02:17 <satya> peraps referring to our dm to RDF mapping wiki page?

Satya Sahoo: peraps referring to our dm to RDF mapping wiki page?

16:02:28 <Paolo> well I guess it's the DM which specifies the optionals, and that is what impacts PROV-O?

Paolo Missier: well I guess it's the DM which specifies the optionals, and that is what impacts PROV-O?

16:02:41 <satya> per/h/aps

Satya Sahoo: per/h/aps

16:02:41 <stain> @Paolo yes

@Paolo yes

16:02:51 <stain> @Paolo but syntax and order, not

@Paolo but syntax and order, not

16:02:54 <Paolo> so I understand that the issue is not PROV-N after all

Paolo Missier: so I understand that the issue is not PROV-N after all

16:03:11 <Paolo> I mean MacTed's issue

Paolo Missier: I mean MacTed's issue

16:03:36 <Paolo> is about PROV-DM, not PROV-N

Paolo Missier: is about PROV-DM, not PROV-N

16:03:46 <stain> I think MacTed should raise a separate issue if he has a problem relating PROV-O/PROV-N

I think MacTed should raise a separate issue if he has a problem relating PROV-O/PROV-N

16:04:15 <stain> MacTed: tere are other optionals, not just identifier. If every optional has placeholder, I don't see need for the special thing on identifier

Ted Thibodeau: tere are other optionals, not just identifier. If every optional has placeholder, I don't see need for the special thing on identifier

16:04:23 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

16:04:34 <stain> MacTed: easiest solution is to make identifier the last argument

Ted Thibodeau: easiest solution is to make identifier the last argument

16:04:35 <stain> +1

+1

16:04:40 <Luc> wasDerivedFrom(e1,e2)

Luc Moreau: wasDerivedFrom(e1,e2)

16:04:47 <satya> @mac, agree, I think that will work better

Satya Sahoo: @mac, agree, I think that will work better

16:04:50 <stain> Luc: we want to express simple things easily

Luc Moreau: we want to express simple things easily

16:04:54 <Luc> wasDerivedFrom(id;e1,e2)

Luc Moreau: wasDerivedFrom(id;e1,e2)

16:05:06 <Luc> wasDerivedFrom(id;e1,e2,a,g,u)

Luc Moreau: wasDerivedFrom(id;e1,e2,a,g,u)

16:05:08 <stain> and because of {attrs} it's easy to parse the argument after

and because of {attrs} it's easy to parse the argument after

16:05:19 <Luc> wasDerivedFrom(id;e1,e2,a,-,u)

Luc Moreau: wasDerivedFrom(id;e1,e2,a,-,u)

16:05:22 <stain> Luc: .. or we may just keep identifier on some of them

Luc Moreau: .. or we may just keep identifier on some of them

16:05:26 <Paolo> @MacTed we are actually using the the "last argument omitted" rule for optional attributes already...

Paolo Missier: @MacTed we are actually using the the "last argument omitted" rule for optional attributes already...

16:05:30 <tlebo> @mac, I disagree, the intent for prov-n is for Humans to read, the identifier (if there) is the SUBJECT of the assertion (and thus belongs in the beginning).

Timothy Lebo: @mac, I disagree, the intent for prov-n is for Humans to read, the identifier (if there) is the SUBJECT of the assertion (and thus belongs in the beginning).

16:05:41 <jcheney> i.e. don't want to say wasDerivedFrom(-,e1,e2) when id is missing.

James Cheney: i.e. don't want to say wasDerivedFrom(-,e1,e2) when id is missing.

16:05:46 <stain> Luc: Rule is we got some mandatory arguments, like e1, e2, the others are optional.

Luc Moreau: Rule is we got some mandatory arguments, like e1, e2, the others are optional.

16:05:57 <Luc> wasDerivedFrom(e1,e2)

Luc Moreau: wasDerivedFrom(e1,e2)

16:06:00 <stain> Luc: if the remaining optional arguments are not expressed, nothing needs to be written, like above

Luc Moreau: if the remaining optional arguments are not expressed, nothing needs to be written, like above

16:06:15 <stain> Luc: otherwise, we do like suggested, with a placeholder for optional argument not there.

Luc Moreau: otherwise, we do like suggested, with a placeholder for optional argument not there.

16:06:26 <stain> Luc: but to handle the first optional (the identifier) differently

Luc Moreau: but to handle the first optional (the identifier) differently

16:06:28 <Zakim> -??P3

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P3

16:06:30 <kai> Have to leave soon, too. FWIW, I prefer to externalize the ID, seems most intuitive to me for all people but LISPians.

Kai Eckert: Have to leave soon, too. FWIW, I prefer to externalize the ID, seems most intuitive to me for all people but LISPians.

16:06:39 <satya> the id is for "wasDerivedFrom(e1, e2)" so it should be "id(wasDerivedFrom(e1, e2))"

Satya Sahoo: the id is for "wasDerivedFrom(e1, e2)" so it should be "id(wasDerivedFrom(e1, e2))"

16:07:07 <stain> not just inside..

not just inside..

16:07:16 <Luc> @satya, we don't identify a description but a derivation!

Luc Moreau: @satya, we don't identify a description but a derivation!

16:07:17 <Paolo> @kai and but logic programmers as well :-)

Paolo Missier: @kai and but logic programmers as well :-)

16:07:24 <stain> so something like  wasDerivedFrom(e1, e2) : id     or id: wasDerivedFrom(e1, e2)

so something like wasDerivedFrom(e1, e2) : id or id: wasDerivedFrom(e1, e2)

16:07:36 <satya> @stain, exactly

Satya Sahoo: @stain, exactly

16:07:46 <stain> pgroth: suggest for now to send around page again and gather more suggestions

Paul Groth: suggest for now to send around page again and gather more suggestions

16:07:50 <stain> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/OptionalSyntax

http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/OptionalSyntax

16:07:55 <kai> @paolo: right. And indeed I don't like it for the entity statement, as there an ID is needed, IMHO.

Kai Eckert: @paolo: right. And indeed I don't like it for the entity statement, as there an ID is needed, IMHO.

16:07:56 <stain> vote next week

vote next week

16:07:57 <satya> @luc, yes the id for the assertion about the derivation

Satya Sahoo: @luc, yes the id for the assertion about the derivation

16:08:04 <stain> it seems like there won't be progress on PROV-N until this is sorted

it seems like there won't be progress on PROV-N until this is sorted

16:08:09 <Paolo> @satya, stian: please go through the wiki page, similar proposals to yours are there

Paolo Missier: @satya, stian: please go through the wiki page, similar proposals to yours are there

16:08:10 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

16:08:17 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

16:08:20 <kai> @paolo: maybe a compromise, externalize it only if it is optional?

Kai Eckert: @paolo: maybe a compromise, externalize it only if it is optional?

16:08:32 <stain> Luc: would not want to delay this, we want to do a revised draft in 4 weeks time

Luc Moreau: would not want to delay this, we want to do a revised draft in 4 weeks time

16:08:40 <stain> Luc: delay by 1 week is..

Luc Moreau: delay by 1 week is..

16:08:45 <satya> @paolo, yes I agree with the proposals - I was just trying to clarify the issues from Mac's statement

Satya Sahoo: @paolo, yes I agree with the proposals - I was just trying to clarify the issues from Mac's statement

16:08:48 <Paolo> @kai ID /is/ optional!

Paolo Missier: @kai ID /is/ optional!

16:08:48 <stain> Luc: putting those drafts in danger

Luc Moreau: putting those drafts in danger

16:09:03 <kai> @paolo: also for entity?

Kai Eckert: @paolo: also for entity?

16:09:14 <stain> is there an id for the entity record? (bomb shell!)

is there an id for the entity record? (bomb shell!)

16:09:25 <tlebo> @stian, no.

Timothy Lebo: @stian, no.

16:09:36 <stain> jcheney: sounds like we can say go ahead with this, without having to decide.. (?)

Sandro Hawke: sounds like we can say go ahead with this, without having to decide.. (?)

16:09:40 <stain> MacTed agrees

MacTed agrees

16:09:49 <jcheney> that wasn't me! (sandrio, I think)

James Cheney: that wasn't me! (sandrio, I think)

16:09:55 <stain> hihi

hihi

16:10:00 <kai> @paolo: From the wiki: e AS entity(attrs). Makes entity(attrs) sense without e, i.e., the ID?

Kai Eckert: @paolo: From the wiki: e AS entity(attrs). Makes entity(attrs) sense without e, i.e., the ID?

16:10:17 <Paolo> @kai yes it's the ID /of the relation/ we are talking about

Paolo Missier: @kai yes it's the ID /of the relation/ we are talking about

16:10:26 <Paolo> not of the entity

Paolo Missier: not of the entity

16:10:34 <jcheney> q+

James Cheney: q+

16:10:34 <stain> pgroth: what about just using the semicolon as suggested, about making other things optional is about readability

Paul Groth: what about just using the semicolon as suggested, about making other things optional is about readability

16:10:37 <MacTed> s/jcheney/sandro/
16:10:39 <pgroth> ack jcheney

Paul Groth: ack jcheney

16:10:43 <jcheney> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Optional_arguments

James Cheney: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Optional_arguments

16:10:49 <tlebo> +1 semicolon

Timothy Lebo: +1 semicolon

16:10:49 <pgroth> Zakim, mute pgroth

Paul Groth: Zakim, mute pgroth

16:10:49 <Zakim> pgroth should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should now be muted

16:10:53 <kai> @paolo. ok. then I prefer externalization even more, to avoid that confusion

Kai Eckert: @paolo. ok. then I prefer externalization even more, to avoid that confusion

16:11:05 <Paolo> @kai that seems wrong! I'll check the wiki

Paolo Missier: @kai that seems wrong! I'll check the wiki

16:11:08 <stain> jcheney: as pointed out there are other ambiguoities, listed on wiki page above

James Cheney: as pointed out there are other ambiguoities, listed on wiki page above

16:11:12 <kai> @paolo: not the first time that I confused that, sorry. But maybe this also is a point.

Kai Eckert: @paolo: not the first time that I confused that, sorry. But maybe this also is a point.

16:11:14 <stain> ... believe not many have looked at it

... believe not many have looked at it

16:11:36 <tlebo> externalization is a scary slope - it looks like an identifier for the record itself (and it's not)

Timothy Lebo: externalization is a scary slope - it looks like an identifier for the record itself (and it's not)

16:11:43 <stain> jcheney: will look at the other comments and revise this proposal

James Cheney: will look at the other comments and revise this proposal

16:11:45 <Paolo> @kai agreed -- simple rule is, if we are confused, everyone else will be

Paolo Missier: @kai agreed -- simple rule is, if we are confused, everyone else will be

16:12:09 <stain> @tlebo yeah

@tlebo yeah

16:12:18 <stain> Page is difficult to understand

Page is difficult to understand

16:12:36 <stain> the optional syntax page

the optional syntax page

16:12:38 <MacTed> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/OptionalSyntax  would be easier to comprehend as a table

Ted Thibodeau: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/OptionalSyntax would be easier to comprehend as a table

16:12:48 <kai> Have to leave, sorry. Bye

Kai Eckert: Have to leave, sorry. Bye

16:12:56 <pgroth> Zakim, unmute pgroth

Paul Groth: Zakim, unmute pgroth

16:12:56 <Zakim> pgroth should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth should no longer be muted

16:13:04 <stain> (I'll reallyt have to go soon too.. any backup scribes?)

(I'll reallyt have to go soon too.. any backup scribes?)

16:13:22 <dgarijo> @Stian I can continue

Daniel Garijo: @Stian I can continue

16:13:30 <stain> thanks, take over

thanks, take over

16:13:35 <Zakim> -??P5

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P5

16:13:52 <tlebo> scribe: dgarijo

(Scribe set to Daniel Garijo)

16:14:09 <satya> @pgroth, +1

Satya Sahoo: @pgroth, +1

16:14:10 <dgarijo> pgroth: that would be a good finish product that we can look as a whole

Paul Groth: that would be a good finish product that we can look as a whole

16:14:27 <dgarijo> .... which is what we are aiming for.

.... which is what we are aiming for.

16:14:29 <tlebo> bye!

Timothy Lebo: bye!

16:14:31 <dgarijo> ... goodbye!

... goodbye!

16:14:34 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo

Zakim IRC Bot: -Satya_Sahoo

16:14:36 <Zakim> -??P2

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P2

16:14:36 <Zakim> -??P31

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P31

16:14:36 <Zakim> -pgroth

Zakim IRC Bot: -pgroth

16:14:36 <Zakim> - +44.131.467.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: - +44.131.467.aabb

16:14:39 <Zakim> -Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro

16:14:41 <Zakim> -tlebo

Zakim IRC Bot: -tlebo

16:14:42 <Zakim> -MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed

16:14:44 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes

Zakim IRC Bot: -Curt_Tilmes

16:14:46 <Zakim> -jun

Zakim IRC Bot: -jun

16:14:48 <Zakim> -TomDN

Zakim IRC Bot: -TomDN

16:14:51 <Zakim> -GK

Zakim IRC Bot: -GK

16:14:55 <Zakim> -dgarijo

Zakim IRC Bot: -dgarijo

16:15:00 <pgroth> rrsagent, set log public

Paul Groth: rrsagent, set log public

16:15:10 <pgroth> rrsagent, draft minutes

Paul Groth: rrsagent, draft minutes

16:15:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-prov-minutes.html pgroth

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-prov-minutes.html pgroth

16:15:14 <pgroth> trackbot, end telcon

Paul Groth: trackbot, end telcon

16:17:21 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees

16:17:21 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +49.674.180.aaaa, TomDN, Curt_Tilmes, tlebo, Satya_Sahoo, dgarijo?, Sandro, jun, kai?, GK, +44.131.467.aabb, MacTed, pgroth

Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been +49.674.180.aaaa, TomDN, Curt_Tilmes, tlebo, Satya_Sahoo, dgarijo?, Sandro, jun, kai?, GK, +44.131.467.aabb, MacTed, pgroth

16:17:24 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes

16:17:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-prov-minutes.html trackbot

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-prov-minutes.html trackbot

16:17:25 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye

16:17:25 <RRSAgent> I see no action items

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see no action items



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This revision (#2) generated 2012-05-08 09:30:21 UTC by 'pgroth', comments: 'changed patents to more broadly intellectual property'