Provenance Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 21 July 2011

Agenda
http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.07.21
Seen
Christine Runnegar, Curt Tilmes, Daniel Garijo, David Corsar, Edoardo (Edoardo, Edoardo_and_David) Pignotti, Eric Stephan, Graham Klyne, Helena Deus, James Cheney, Jörn Hees, Khalid Belhajjame, Luc Moreau, Olaf Hartig, Paolo Missier, Paul Groth, Reza B'Far, Ryan Golden, Sandro Hawke, Satya Sahoo, Stephan Zednik, Stian Soiland-Reyes, Ted Thibodeau, Timothy Lebo, Yogesh Simmhan
Regrets
Eric Stephan
Chair
Luc Moreau
Scribe
Yogesh Simmhan
IRC Log
Original and Editable Wiki Version
Resolutions
  1. minutes of F2F1 link
  2. last week's minutes approved link
Topics
  1. Admin

    Minutes of last week's teleconference and of F2F meeting were approved. It was agreed that outstanding F2F actions related to the model should be converted into issues against the model.

  2. Discuss Plans for Connection Task Force

    no significant progress on this front.

  3. Discuss Plans for Implementation Task Force

    Helena presented the summary of the survey. The issue of privacy was raised, and the coordinators are going to check with stakeholders whether information can be publicly released. It is proposed to gather further information, and identify requirements to inform the activities of the WG. A plan will be drafted and circulated for discussion.

  4. Towards first public working drafts

    Luc reiterated the approach the WG is going to follow to produce FPWDs. Documents are being released at this call for internal discussion. Issues have to be raised against these documents, and they will be tracked through the tracker.

  5. Discuss Plans for Provenance Access and Query Task Force

    Graham released a document for Provenance Access for internal discussion. This document is to be reviewed in the context of the ProvenanceAccessScenario agreed at the face to face meeting.

  6. Discuss Plans for Model Task Force

    1. Model progress review

      Paolo released a Provenance Model document for internal discussions, based on consensus reached so far by the working group, and presented in a coherent manner. WG members are invited to review the document and raise issues against it on the tracker.

    2. OWL Ontology progress review

      Satya indicated that an OWL ontology file will be committed in the mercurial repository by next week and that it will be followed by a document (the so-called formal model document) explaining the ontology.

    3. Formal Semantics

      JamesC explained why formal semantics could be appropriate and he illustrated several ways to go about it. This was followed by a discussion on the purpose of the semantics and what it brings over the OWL formalization. It was agreed this topic will be revisited once a first draft of the OWL ontology is available, trying to identify issues that would deserve a mathematical formalization and that are not covered by the OWL ontology.

14:51:25 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/21-prov-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/21-prov-irc

14:51:27 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

14:51:29 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be

14:51:29 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

14:51:30 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:51:30 <trackbot> Date: 21 July 2011
14:51:34 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV

Luc Moreau: Zakim, this will be PROV

14:51:36 <Zakim> ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes

14:51:44 <Luc> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.07.21
14:51:54 <Luc> Chair: Luc Moreau
14:52:22 <Luc> Scribe: Yogesh Simmhan

(Scribe set to Yogesh Simmhan)

14:52:31 <Luc> rrsagent, make logs public

Luc Moreau: rrsagent, make logs public

14:52:36 <Luc> Topic: Admin

1. Admin

Summary: Minutes of last week's teleconference and of F2F meeting were approved. It was agreed that outstanding F2F actions related to the model should be converted into issues against the model.

<luc>Summary: Minutes of last week's teleconference and of F2F meeting were approved. It was agreed that outstanding F2F actions related to the model should be converted into issues against the model.
14:52:45 <Luc> Regrets: Eric Stephan
14:53:16 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

14:53:23 <Zakim> +??P2

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2

14:53:25 <pgroth> Zakim, who is on the call?

Paul Groth: Zakim, who is on the call?

14:53:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P2

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see ??P2

14:53:35 <pgroth> Zakim, ??P2 is me

Paul Groth: Zakim, ??P2 is me

14:53:36 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pgroth; got it

14:54:01 <pgroth> Luc have you set up the call?

Paul Groth: Luc have you set up the call?

14:54:33 <Luc> yes

Luc Moreau: yes

14:55:38 <Zakim> + +44.238.059.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +44.238.059.aaaa

14:55:50 <Zakim> +??P8

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P8

14:55:56 <Luc> zakim, +44.238.059.aaaa is me

Luc Moreau: zakim, +44.238.059.aaaa is me

14:55:56 <Zakim> +Luc; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Luc; got it

14:56:01 <Zakim> +??P14

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P14

14:56:10 <Luc> yogesh, everything is set up for scribin

Luc Moreau: yogesh, everything is set up for scribin

14:56:29 <Paolo> zakim, ??P14 is me

Paolo Missier: zakim, ??P14 is me

14:56:29 <Zakim> +Paolo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Paolo; got it

14:56:45 <Paolo> zakim, mute me

Paolo Missier: zakim, mute me

14:56:45 <Zakim> Paolo should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Paolo should now be muted

14:57:12 <Zakim> + +1.443.987.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.443.987.aabb

14:57:32 <Zakim> +??P18

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P18

14:57:39 <stain> Zakim: ??P18 is me
14:57:47 <stain> Zakim, ??P18 is me

Stian Soiland-Reyes: Zakim, ??P18 is me

14:57:47 <Zakim> +stain; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +stain; got it

14:58:30 <stain> Zakim, who is noisy?

Stian Soiland-Reyes: Zakim, who is noisy?

14:58:41 <Zakim> stain, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Luc (38%)

Zakim IRC Bot: stain, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Luc (38%)

14:58:56 <stain> (I'm just never sure if I get my mute button the right way around!)

Stian Soiland-Reyes: (I'm just never sure if I get my mute button the right way around!)

14:59:04 <Zakim> + +1.315.330.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.315.330.aacc

14:59:37 <Zakim> + +1.540.449.aadd

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.540.449.aadd

15:00:06 <Zakim> +Kingsley_Idehen

Zakim IRC Bot: +Kingsley_Idehen

15:00:19 <MacTed> Zakim, Kingsley_Idehen is OpenLink_Software

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, Kingsley_Idehen is OpenLink_Software

15:00:19 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software; got it

15:00:25 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

15:00:25 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

15:00:30 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:00:30 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

15:00:34 <Yogesh> zakim, +1.540.449 is me

zakim, +1.540.449 is me

15:00:34 <Zakim> +Yogesh; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Yogesh; got it

15:00:41 <Zakim> +??P36

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P36

15:00:47 <Zakim> +??P28

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P28

15:00:51 <jcheney> Zakin, ??P36 is me

James Cheney: Zakin, ??P36 is me

15:00:56 <jcheney> Zakim, ??P36 is me

James Cheney: Zakim, ??P36 is me

15:00:56 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jcheney; got it

15:00:59 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's here?

15:01:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, Luc, ??P8, Paolo (muted), +1.443.987.aabb, stain, +1.315.330.aacc, Yogesh, MacTed (muted), jcheney, ??P28

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see pgroth, Luc, ??P8, Paolo (muted), +1.443.987.aabb, stain, +1.315.330.aacc, Yogesh, MacTed (muted), jcheney, ??P28

15:01:08 <Zakim> On IRC I see khalidbelhajjame, jcheney, tlebo, satya, Helena, Curt, Yogesh, Paolo, pgroth, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, MacTed, stain, edsu, sandro, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see khalidbelhajjame, jcheney, tlebo, satya, Helena, Curt, Yogesh, Paolo, pgroth, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, MacTed, stain, edsu, sandro, trackbot

15:01:11 <Zakim> + +1.512.524.aaee

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.512.524.aaee

15:01:23 <Helena> Zakim, ??P28 is Helena

Helena Deus: Zakim, ??P28 is Helena

15:01:23 <Zakim> +Helena; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Helena; got it

15:01:31 <Zakim> +??P55

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P55

15:01:50 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, ??P55 is me

Khalid Belhajjame: zakim, ??P55 is me

15:01:55 <Yogesh> zakim, i am scribe

zakim, i am scribe

15:01:59 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +khalidbelhajjame; got it

15:02:03 <Zakim> sorry, Yogesh, I do not see a party named 'scribe'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, Yogesh, I do not see a party named 'scribe'

15:02:27 <Yogesh> Luc: agenda for today

Luc Moreau: agenda for today

15:02:31 <Zakim> + +1.518.633.aaff

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.518.633.aaff

15:02:48 <Yogesh> Helena: Stephan is almost done with report. Discuss what is there is wiki.

Helena Deus: Stephan is almost done with report. Discuss what is there is wiki.

15:03:04 <Yogesh> Luc: will review future plans. its on agenda.

Luc Moreau: will review future plans. its on agenda.

15:03:15 <Zakim> + +49.302.093.aagg

Zakim IRC Bot: + +49.302.093.aagg

15:03:16 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/blog/SW/2011/07/16/results_of_the_provenance_wg_first_f2f_m

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/blog/SW/2011/07/16/results_of_the_provenance_wg_first_f2f_m

15:03:23 <Yogesh> scribe: yogesh
15:03:57 <Luc>  http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-07-06

Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-07-06

15:03:57 <Yogesh> Pgroth: please advertise activities of the group. URL is in irc

Paul Groth: please advertise activities of the group. URL is in irc

15:04:04 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-07-07

Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-07-07

15:04:21 <khalidbelhajjame> +1

Khalid Belhajjame: +1

15:04:23 <Paolo> +1

Paolo Missier: +1

15:04:25 <jcheney> +1

James Cheney: +1

15:04:28 <Helena> +1

Helena Deus: +1

15:04:30 <Yogesh> Luc: support for minutes

Luc Moreau: support for minutes

15:04:30 <satya> +1

Satya Sahoo: +1

15:04:30 <rgolden> +1

Ryan Golden: +1

15:04:38 <tlebo> zakim, I am aacc

Timothy Lebo: zakim, I am aacc

15:04:40 <Yogesh> +1

+1

15:04:42 <olaf> +1

Olaf Hartig: +1

15:04:45 <tlebo> +1

Timothy Lebo: +1

15:04:45 <stain> 0 \: Didn't attend day 2

Stian Soiland-Reyes: 0 \: Didn't attend day 2

15:05:02 <zednik> +1

Stephan Zednik: +1

15:05:10 <Zakim> +??P5

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P5

15:05:12 <Zakim> +tlebo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +tlebo; got it

15:05:14 <Zakim> +??P6

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P6

15:05:15 <tlebo> zakim, aacc is tlebo

Timothy Lebo: zakim, aacc is tlebo

15:05:16 <Edoardo> +1

Edoardo (Edoardo, Edoardo_and_David) Pignotti: +1

15:05:18 <GK> 0 (only there part time)

Graham Klyne: 0 (only there part time)

15:05:29 <dcorsar> +1

David Corsar: +1

15:05:34 <Luc> ACCEPTED: minutes of F2F1

RESOLVED: minutes of F2F1

15:05:45 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-07-14

Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-07-14

15:05:47 <Zakim> sorry, tlebo, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, tlebo, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc'

15:05:50 <tlebo> zakim, +1.315.330 is me

Timothy Lebo: zakim, +1.315.330 is me

15:05:56 <Zakim> -??P5

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P5

15:06:02 <Paolo> +1

Paolo Missier: +1

15:06:03 <satya> +1

Satya Sahoo: +1

15:06:03 <khalidbelhajjame> +1

Khalid Belhajjame: +1

15:06:04 <Zakim> sorry, tlebo, I do not recognize a party named '+1.315.330'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, tlebo, I do not recognize a party named '+1.315.330'

15:06:04 <tlebo> +1

Timothy Lebo: +1

15:06:08 <olaf> +1

Olaf Hartig: +1

15:06:08 <Yogesh> +1

+1

15:06:09 <stain> 0 (away)

Stian Soiland-Reyes: 0 (away)

15:06:11 <jcheney> +1

James Cheney: +1

15:06:16 <Zakim> +??P5

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P5

15:06:19 <Helena> +1

Helena Deus: +1

15:06:19 <GK> Zakim is being very slow/temperamental today

Graham Klyne: Zakim is being very slow/temperamental today

15:06:25 <zednik> 0 (Did not attend last week)

Stephan Zednik: 0 (Did not attend last week)

15:06:28 <GK> Zakim, ??P5 is me

Graham Klyne: Zakim, ??P5 is me

15:06:30 <rgolden> +1

Ryan Golden: +1

15:06:37 <Zakim> +GK; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +GK; got it

15:06:38 <dcorsar> +1

David Corsar: +1

15:06:38 <Zakim> + +1.518.276.aahh

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.518.276.aahh

15:06:38 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's here?

15:06:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, Luc, ??P8, Paolo (muted), +1.443.987.aabb, stain, tlebo, Yogesh, MacTed (muted), jcheney, Helena, +1.512.524.aaee, khalidbelhajjame

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see pgroth, Luc, ??P8, Paolo (muted), +1.443.987.aabb, stain, tlebo, Yogesh, MacTed (muted), jcheney, Helena, +1.512.524.aaee, khalidbelhajjame

15:06:48 <Zakim> ... +1.518.633.aaff, +49.302.093.aagg, ??P6, GK, +1.518.276.aahh

Zakim IRC Bot: ... +1.518.633.aaff, +49.302.093.aagg, ??P6, GK, +1.518.276.aahh

15:06:49 <Zakim> +??P12

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P12

15:06:53 <Zakim> On IRC I see dgarijo, olaf, zednik, Edoardo, dcorsar, GK, rgolden, GK1, khalidbelhajjame, jcheney, tlebo, satya, Helena, Curt, Yogesh, Paolo, pgroth, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, MacTed,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see dgarijo, olaf, zednik, Edoardo, dcorsar, GK, rgolden, GK1, khalidbelhajjame, jcheney, tlebo, satya, Helena, Curt, Yogesh, Paolo, pgroth, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, MacTed,

15:06:54 <Yogesh> RESOLVED: last week's minutes approved

RESOLVED: last week's minutes approved

15:06:58 <Zakim> ... stain, edsu, sandro, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: ... stain, edsu, sandro, trackbot

15:07:08 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P12 is me

Daniel Garijo: Zakim, ??P12 is me

15:07:08 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +dgarijo; got it

15:07:10 <GK> I'm not seeing an agenda for today in the wiki

Graham Klyne: I'm not seeing an agenda for today in the wiki

15:07:10 <Yogesh> Luc: need scribes for future. please volunteer

Luc Moreau: need scribes for future. please volunteer

15:07:22 <pgroth> agenda is at: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.07.21

Paul Groth: agenda is at: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.07.21

15:07:22 <Luc> Topic: Discuss Plans for Connection Task Force

2. Discuss Plans for Connection Task Force

Summary: no significant progress on this front.

<luc>Summary: no significant progress on this front.
15:07:34 <Zakim> +??P9

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P9

15:07:48 <Curt> Zakim, +1.443.987.aabb is me

Curt Tilmes: Zakim, +1.443.987.aabb is me

15:07:51 <Yogesh> Pgroth: Eric left note that eric, yolanda and kai are away

Paul Groth: Eric left note that eric, yolanda and kai are away

15:07:55 <Zakim> +Curt; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Curt; got it

15:08:11 <Zakim> +Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro

15:08:14 <GK> The date in the agenda is incorrect

Graham Klyne: The date in the agenda is incorrect

15:08:27 <Yogesh> Luc: Eric asked if we could identify who can work on the conection task force report for Sep

Luc Moreau: Eric asked if we could identify who can work on the conection task force report for Sep

15:08:47 <pgroth> q+

Paul Groth: q+

15:09:24 <Luc> ack pgroth

Luc Moreau: ack pgroth

15:09:29 <Yogesh> Pgroth: we did this last week. several has said yes. Those who signed up last week should put their names on the wiki

Paul Groth: we did this last week. several has said yes. Those who signed up last week should put their names on the wiki

15:09:34 <pgroth> q-

Paul Groth: q-

15:09:38 <jcheney> We had volunteers for model and impl task forces only...

James Cheney: We had volunteers for model and impl task forces only...

15:09:42 <MacTed> GK - I fixed the agenda date

Ted Thibodeau: GK - I fixed the agenda date

15:10:02 <Luc> Topic: Discuss Plans for Implementation Task Force

3. Discuss Plans for Implementation Task Force

Summary: Helena presented the summary of the survey. The issue of privacy was raised, and the coordinators are going to check with stakeholders whether information can be publicly released. It is proposed to gather further information, and identify requirements to inform the activities of the WG. A plan will be drafted and circulated for discussion.

<luc>Summary: Helena presented the summary of the survey. The issue of privacy was raised, and the coordinators are going to check with stakeholders whether information can be publicly released.  It is proposed to gather further information, and identify requirements to inform the activities of the WG. A plan will be drafted and circulated for discussion.
15:10:04 <Yogesh> Pgroth: will extract those who signed up last week from the minutes and send to Eric

Paul Groth: will extract those who signed up last week from the minutes and send to Eric

15:10:09 <GK> @MacTed thanks - was confusing me :)

Graham Klyne: @MacTed thanks - was confusing me :)

15:10:38 <Helena> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Implementation_Stakeholder_Questionnaire_Response_Report

Helena Deus: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Implementation_Stakeholder_Questionnaire_Response_Report

15:11:10 <Zakim> + +1.714.454.aaii

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.714.454.aaii

15:11:26 <Yogesh> Helena: We may not be gowing as detailed in the report. Should add more details. What are the expectations. Hope the survey will help.

Helena Deus: We may not be going as detailed in the report. Should add more details. What are the expectations. Hope the survey will help.

15:11:32 <Zakim> + +1.860.673.aajj

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.860.673.aajj

15:11:46 <Yogesh> s/gowing/going/
15:12:25 <Yogesh> Helena: list of orgs that answered survey and the role/field of people

Helena Deus: list of orgs that answered survey and the role/field of people

15:12:27 <pgroth> q+

Paul Groth: q+

15:12:47 <Yogesh> Helen: sah people who are willing to implement and the language

Helena Deus: sah people who are willing to implement and the language

15:12:57 <zednik> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Implementation_Stakeholder_Questionnaire_Response_Report

Stephan Zednik: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Implementation_Stakeholder_Questionnaire_Response_Report

15:13:41 <Yogesh> Helena: members to add/edit the wiki table to address their concerns

Helena Deus: members to add/edit the wiki table to address their concerns

15:13:50 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:13:56 <Yogesh> ...Excel spreadsheet with freetext responses is available

...Excel spreadsheet with freetext responses is available

15:14:28 <Luc> ack pgroth

Luc Moreau: ack pgroth

15:14:31 <rgolden> Have a concern about privacy also

Ryan Golden: Have a concern about privacy also

15:14:35 <Yogesh> Pgroth: did questionaire say the responses will be made public?

Paul Groth: did questionaire say the responses will be made public?

15:14:48 <Yogesh> Helena: We assumed people will not mind.

Helena Deus: We assumed people will not mind.

15:14:58 <rgolden> It is easy to identify the person from the organization and organization field

Ryan Golden: It is easy to identify the person from the organization and organization field

15:15:00 <dgarijo> +q

Daniel Garijo: +q

15:15:34 <Christine> My concern would be that at least some of the information may be personal data

Christine Runnegar: My concern would be that at least some of the information may be personal data

15:15:44 <Yogesh> Pgroth: best thing may be to contact stakeholders to ask if they mind, esp. the freetext response. We can try to make this report members-only in the meanwhile.

Paul Groth: best thing may be to contact stakeholders to ask if they mind, esp. the freetext response. We can try to make this report members-only in the meanwhile.

15:15:44 <MacTed> q+

Ted Thibodeau: q+

15:15:55 <Yogesh> Helena: will contact the stakeholders

Helena Deus: will contact the stakeholders

15:16:05 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

15:16:05 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted

15:16:09 <Yogesh> Luc: can we make a wiki document members-only?

Luc Moreau: can we make a wiki document members-only?

15:16:48 <Yogesh> Sandro: not on the wiki. is possible in w3c site. may not be a way to remove wiki page from history even if deleted.

Sandro Hawke: not on the wiki. is possible in w3c site. may not be a way to remove wiki page from history even if deleted.

15:17:08 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:17:08 <MacTed> was there any assurance of privacy *given* in the questionnaire?

Ted Thibodeau: was there any assurance of privacy *given* in the questionnaire?

15:17:20 <Helena> no

Helena Deus: no

15:17:37 <Yogesh> Sandro: we can delete wiki page in good faith while we get responses, and figure out other options.

Sandro Hawke: we can delete wiki page in good faith while we get responses, and figure out other options.

15:17:57 <pgroth> and the organization information

Paul Groth: and the organization information

15:17:57 <pgroth> !

Paul Groth: !

15:18:01 <jcheney> the page will still be recoverable in the wiki history...

James Cheney: the page will still be recoverable in the wiki history...

15:18:06 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:18:10 <MacTed> q-

Ted Thibodeau: q-

15:18:11 <Luc> ack dgarijo

Luc Moreau: ack dgarijo

15:18:16 <jcheney> but if we delete now it won't get indexed by search engines

James Cheney: but if we delete now it won't get indexed by search engines

15:18:29 <GK> Copy+keep the wiki-markup content deleted!

Graham Klyne: Copy+keep the wiki-markup content deleted!

15:18:51 <Yogesh> Helena: gathered info from outsiders to help modeling group see if we address requirements

Helena Deus: gathered info from outsiders to help modeling group see if we address requirements

15:18:52 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:19:02 <rgolden> q+

Ryan Golden: q+

15:19:11 <Luc> ack rgolden

Luc Moreau: ack rgolden

15:19:36 <Yogesh> Ryan: should ensure that there is no personally identifiable info.

Ryan Golden: should ensure that there is no personally identifiable info.

15:19:38 <Christine> +1 to ryan's comment

Christine Runnegar: +1 to ryan's comment

15:20:00 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

15:20:13 <pgroth> q+

Paul Groth: q+

15:20:14 <Yogesh> ...also add disclaimer on how we use personally id info

...also add disclaimer on how we use personally id info

15:20:31 <Luc> ack pg

Luc Moreau: ack pg

15:20:44 <pgroth> ack pgroth

Paul Groth: ack pgroth

15:20:45 <Yogesh> Pgroth: be clear about how we use it.

Paul Groth: be clear about how we use it.

15:20:59 <pgroth> but very cool

Paul Groth: but very cool

15:21:03 <Yogesh> Helena: can delete current page and put back info once we have ack from stakeholders

Helena Deus: can delete current page and put back info once we have ack from stakeholders

15:21:10 <pgroth> very cool report

Paul Groth: very cool report

15:21:23 <Yogesh> Luc: is there a clear plan for the task force?

Luc Moreau: is there a clear plan for the task force?

15:21:49 <Yogesh> Luc: is there a clear plan for the task force?

Luc Moreau: is there a clear plan for the task force?

15:21:54 <Yogesh> Helena: no lined up plan yet. need to identify who understands the model and can help us go over the list to see what is being addressed.

Helena Deus: no lined up plan yet. need to identify who understands the model and can help us go over the list to see what is being addressed.

15:22:03 <Yogesh> Luc: can we put that as an agenda for next week?

Luc Moreau: can we put that as an agenda for next week?

15:22:18 <Luc> action: helena to produce plan for implementation task force

ACTION: helena to produce plan for implementation task force

15:22:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-33 - Produce plan for implementation task force [on Helena Deus - due 2011-07-28].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-33 - Produce plan for implementation task force [on Helena Deus - due 2011-07-28].

15:22:20 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:22:50 <Zakim> +??P35

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P35

15:22:51 <Yogesh> Luc: intent was to identify gaps in model, act as requirements. What is mechanism?

Luc Moreau: intent was to identify gaps in model, act as requirements. What is mechanism?

15:23:06 <jorn> zakim, ??p35 is me

Jörn Hees: zakim, ??p35 is me

15:23:06 <Zakim> +jorn; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jorn; got it

15:23:14 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:23:36 <Yogesh> Helena: use them to improve use cases. See whats in the model that can be used by stakeholders. Test cases

Helena Deus: use them to improve use cases. See whats in the model that can be used by stakeholders. Test cases

15:23:54 <Yogesh> Luc: is this after the first working draft, when we go back to stakeholders?

Luc Moreau: is this after the first working draft, when we go back to stakeholders?

15:23:58 <Yogesh> Helena: yes

Helena Deus: yes

15:24:16 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:24:17 <Yogesh> ...will put this in the plan, even if this is done after Sep

...will put this in the plan, even if this is done after Sep

15:24:25 <pgroth> Fantastic work Helena and Stephan

Paul Groth: Fantastic work Helena and Stephan

15:24:38 <Yogesh> Luc: +1

Luc Moreau: +1

15:24:38 <Luc> topic: Towards first public working drafts

4. Towards first public working drafts

Summary: Luc reiterated the approach the WG is going to follow to produce FPWDs. Documents are being released at this call for internal discussion. Issues have to be raised against these documents, and they will be tracked through the tracker.

<luc>Summary: Luc reiterated the approach the WG is going to follow to produce FPWDs. Documents are being released at this call for internal discussion. Issues have to be raised against these documents, and they will be tracked through the tracker.
15:25:10 <MacTed> is there a closing date on response submissions?  should perhaps note that on the questionnaire, if nowhere else

Ted Thibodeau: is there a closing date on response submissions? should perhaps note that on the questionnaire, if nowhere else

15:25:33 <Yogesh> Luc: 2 public working drafts: prov models and formalization/ontology

Luc Moreau: 2 public working drafts: prov models and formalization/ontology

15:26:01 <Yogesh> Luc: agreed at F2F1 that accessing provenance will also be available in Sep

Luc Moreau: agreed at F2F1 that accessing provenance will also be available in Sep

15:26:32 <Yogesh> Luc: GK has produced first draft for PAQ, Luc and Paolo done same for model

Luc Moreau: GK has produced first draft for PAQ, Luc and Paolo done same for model

15:26:49 <Yogesh> Luc: please identify concern with the draft and ideally make counter proposal

Luc Moreau: please identify concern with the draft and ideally make counter proposal

15:27:09 <Yogesh> Luc: document will evolve as issues come up in email and discuss over phone call

Luc Moreau: document will evolve as issues come up in email and discuss over phone call

15:27:16 <pgroth> also please mention the issue number in your emails

Paul Groth: also please mention the issue number in your emails

15:27:21 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:27:28 <pgroth> q+

Paul Groth: q+

15:27:29 <GK> q+ to note that we can make agreements in email too

Graham Klyne: q+ to note that we can make agreements in email too

15:27:39 <stain> +1 - specially due to holidays

Stian Soiland-Reyes: +1 - specially due to holidays

15:27:43 <Yogesh> Luc: any process question?

Luc Moreau: any process question?

15:27:52 <pgroth> q-

Paul Groth: q-

15:27:58 <rgolden> q+

Ryan Golden: q+

15:28:09 <Luc> ack pgroth

Luc Moreau: ack pgroth

15:28:11 <Yogesh> Luc: please raise issue using tracker that will generate issue number

Luc Moreau: please raise issue using tracker that will generate issue number

15:28:41 <Yogesh> GK: preference for resolving things by emails rather than telecon

Graham Klyne: preference for resolving things by emails rather than telecon

15:29:02 <Luc> ack GK

Luc Moreau: ack GK

15:29:02 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to note that we can make agreements in email too

Zakim IRC Bot: GK, you wanted to note that we can make agreements in email too

15:29:03 <Yogesh> Luc: will have to reach consensus as group. if it emerges from email, we should try and get approval on email.

Luc Moreau: will have to reach consensus as group. if it emerges from email, we should try and get approval on email.

15:29:29 <Yogesh> Luc: chairs and editors will curate issues as they are raised

Luc Moreau: chairs and editors will curate issues as they are raised

15:29:31 <satya> q+

Satya Sahoo: q+

15:29:36 <Luc> ack rgo

Luc Moreau: ack rgo

15:29:53 <Yogesh> rgolden: was graphical language in the specification?

Ryan Golden: was graphical language in the specification?

15:30:12 <Yogesh> Luc: (yes) will talk about it in model task force plans when paolo reports

Luc Moreau: (yes) will talk about it in model task force plans when paolo reports

15:30:17 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:30:22 <Luc> ack saty

Luc Moreau: ack saty

15:30:52 <Yogesh> satya: there was a vote on some definitions over email, but we seem to revisit them

Satya Sahoo: there was a vote on some definitions over email, but we seem to revisit them

15:31:17 <GK> I think the repeating definition threads will get easier once we focus on the actual draft documents

Graham Klyne: I think the repeating definition threads will get easier once we focus on the actual draft documents

15:31:20 <Zakim> +??P39

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P39

15:31:41 <stain> Zakim: ??P39 is me
15:31:44 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:31:47 <stain> Zakim, ??P39 is me

Stian Soiland-Reyes: Zakim, ??P39 is me

15:31:47 <Zakim> +stain; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +stain; got it

15:31:49 <satya> ok

Satya Sahoo: ok

15:31:51 <Yogesh> Luc: nature of standardization WG. new people or those who were not present. Unvoidable. Will potentially have people from outside group raise issues once we publish the drafts

Luc Moreau: nature of standardization WG. new people or those who were not present. Unvoidable. Will potentially have people from outside group raise issues once we publish the drafts

15:31:54 <satya> yes thanks!

Satya Sahoo: yes thanks!

15:32:06 <Luc> topic: Discuss Plans for Provenance Access and Query Task Force

5. Discuss Plans for Provenance Access and Query Task Force

Summary: Graham released a document for Provenance Access for internal discussion. This document is to be reviewed in the context of the ProvenanceAccessScenario agreed at the face to face meeting.

<luc>Summary: Graham released a document for Provenance Access for internal discussion. This document is to be reviewed in the context of the ProvenanceAccessScenario agreed at the face to face meeting.
15:32:24 <GK> PAQ document on W3C site: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/tip/paq/provenance-access.html

Graham Klyne: PAQ document on W3C site: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/tip/paq/provenance-access.html

15:32:24 <GK> Announcement http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Jul/0162.html

Graham Klyne: Announcement http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Jul/0162.html

15:32:39 <Yogesh> GK: has put draft at W3C mercurial wiki

Graham Klyne: has put draft at W3C mercurial wiki

15:32:58 <Luc> Pointers to working drafts from WG page: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/WorkingDrafts

Luc Moreau: Pointers to working drafts from WG page: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/WorkingDrafts

15:33:19 <Yogesh> GK: changes status to editors draft and tidied up things since the last version

Graham Klyne: changes status to editors draft and tidied up things since the last version

15:33:46 <Paolo> zakim, unmute me

Paolo Missier: zakim, unmute me

15:33:46 <Zakim> Paolo should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Paolo should no longer be muted

15:34:05 <Yogesh> Luc: members should identify aspects of doc that do not support scenario or is out of scope

Luc Moreau: members should identify aspects of doc that do not support scenario or is out of scope

15:34:06 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:34:24 <Yogesh> q+

q+

15:34:37 <Yogesh> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceAccessScenario

http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceAccessScenario

15:34:59 <pgroth> ack Yogesh

Paul Groth: ack Yogesh

15:35:25 <Yogesh> want to make sure there are no concerns with the scenario itself

want to make sure there are no concerns with the scenario itself

15:35:26 <pgroth> q+

Paul Groth: q+

15:35:53 <Yogesh> Pgroth: we agreed line by line

Paul Groth: we agreed line by line

15:36:03 <Yogesh> q+

q+

15:36:04 <GK> q+ to note that not every part of the functionality in the scenario is necessarily addressed directly by PAQ (e.g. "Oh yeah" button)

Graham Klyne: q+ to note that not every part of the functionality in the scenario is necessarily addressed directly by PAQ (e.g. "Oh yeah" button)

15:36:16 <pgroth> ack pgroth

Paul Groth: ack pgroth

15:36:39 <pgroth> ah ok

Paul Groth: ah ok

15:36:52 <Yogesh> was only refering to concrete scenario

was only refering to concrete scenario

15:36:59 <Luc> ack yo

Luc Moreau: ack yo

15:37:03 <Yogesh> not to the abstract that was agreed upon

not to the abstract that was agreed upon

15:37:32 <Yogesh> GK: draft may not have exact solutions for all parts of the scenario

Graham Klyne: draft may not have exact solutions for all parts of the scenario

15:38:05 <Yogesh> Helena: we should consider feedback from survey

Helena Deus: we should consider feedback from survey

15:38:17 <Zakim> -jorn

Zakim IRC Bot: -jorn

15:38:20 <pgroth> everything?

Paul Groth: everything?

15:38:25 <Yogesh> Luc: not refering to model, but to PAQ

Luc Moreau: not refering to model, but to PAQ

15:38:42 <Yogesh> GK: model and scenario are connected

Graham Klyne: model and scenario are connected

15:38:43 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:38:47 <sandro> q+ to talk about previous topic for a moment (deleting wiki page)

Sandro Hawke: q+ to talk about previous topic for a moment (deleting wiki page)

15:38:49 <GK> q-

Graham Klyne: q-

15:39:00 <Zakim> +??P35

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P35

15:39:01 <Luc> ack sand

Luc Moreau: ack sand

15:39:01 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to talk about previous topic for a moment (deleting wiki page)

Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to talk about previous topic for a moment (deleting wiki page)

15:39:42 <Yogesh> sandro: has made backup copy of wiki and deleted entry. was easier than expected.

Sandro Hawke: has made backup copy of wiki and deleted entry. was easier than expected.

15:39:50 <Zakim> +??P48

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P48

15:39:53 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:39:59 <satya> q+

Satya Sahoo: q+

15:39:59 <Yogesh> Helena: spreadsheet with raw text should also be access controlled. will send to sandro.

Helena Deus: spreadsheet with raw text should also be access controlled. will send to sandro.

15:40:22 <Yogesh> topic: Discuss Plans for Model Task Force

6. Discuss Plans for Model Task Force

15:40:35 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:41:24 <pgroth> what you just said

Paul Groth: what you just said

15:41:24 <Yogesh> satya: we have prov example scenario for model concepts. understanding was PAQ example was to be a subset of journalism. how are they related?

Satya Sahoo: we have prov example scenario for model concepts. understanding was PAQ example was to be a subset of journalism. how are they related?

15:41:36 <GK> Provenance model draft at: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/tip/model/ProvenanceModel.html

Graham Klyne: Provenance model draft at: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/tip/model/ProvenanceModel.html

15:42:06 <Luc> Subtopic: Model progress review

6.1. Model progress review

Summary: Paolo released a Provenance Model document for internal discussions, based on consensus reached so far by the working group, and presented in a coherent manner. WG members are invited to review the document and raise issues against it on the tracker.

15:42:21 <Yogesh> Pgroth: it is considered as a subset of journalism example. Concrete scenario should show this relationship.

Paul Groth: it is considered as a subset of journalism example. Concrete scenario should show this relationship.

15:42:45 <Yogesh> Satya: should constrain ourselves to the scenario for first draft.

Satya Sahoo: should constrain ourselves to the scenario for first draft.

<luc>Summary: Paolo released a Provenance Model document for internal discussions, based on consensus reached so far by the working group, and presented in a coherent manner.  WG members are invited to review the document and raise issues against it on the tracker.
15:42:49 <Paolo> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/ProvenanceModel.html

Paolo Missier: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/ProvenanceModel.html

15:43:14 <Yogesh> Paolo: link to latest version of draft. Link should stay current.

Paolo Missier: link to latext version of draft. Link should stay current.

15:43:34 <Yogesh> ...Have worked with Luc to consolidate discussion.

...Have worked with Luc to consolidate discussion.

15:43:37 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:43:41 <Luc> ack satya

Luc Moreau: ack satya

15:43:53 <Yogesh> ...Baseline wiki page from F2F1 and additional discussion from emails since then.

...Baseline wiki page from F2F1 and additional discussion from emails since then.

15:44:07 <GK> +1 not the union of all proposals!

Graham Klyne: +1 not the union of all proposals!

15:44:19 <Yogesh> ...Spirit has been to not disrupt agreements but ensure coherent document for discussion.

...Spirit has been to not disrupt agreements but ensure coherent document for discussion.

15:44:49 <Luc> A few comments are available from: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/note.txt

Luc Moreau: A few comments are available from: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/note.txt

15:45:14 <Yogesh> ...Process: open to entire group for contributions to discussion.

...Process: open to entire group for contributions to discussion.

15:45:31 <Yogesh> ...List of constructs that should be part of language.

...List of constructs that should be part of language.

15:45:47 <Yogesh> ...Intro e.g. is a simplified version of journalism

...Intro e.g. is a simplified version of journalism

15:46:08 <Yogesh> ...No official syntax proposal, anything else is ok too.

...No official syntax proposal, anything else is ok too.

15:46:39 <Luc> currently, graphical notation is not explained ... but hopefully it is understandable

Luc Moreau: currently, graphical notation is not explained ... but hopefully it is understandable

15:46:41 <Yogesh> ...Sec 3.3 graphical proposal comes out naturally. Made iup, no pretense of being eventual graphical lang.

...Sec 3.3 graphical proposal comes out naturally. Made iup, no pretense of being eventual graphical lang.

15:47:23 <GK> I would like to eliminate "bob"s from the specification... I'll try and formulate a proposal.

Graham Klyne: I would like to eliminate "bob"s from the specification... I'll try and formulate a proposal.

15:47:24 <Yogesh> ...each construct has definition and e.g.

...each construct has definition and e.g.

15:47:27 <satya> @Paolo: like the graphical notation since it seems to be compatible with OWL/RDFS syntax

Satya Sahoo: @Paolo: like the graphical notation since it seems to be compatible with OWL/RDFS syntax

15:47:49 <Yogesh> ...There was discussion of IVP Of

...There was discussion of IVP Of

15:47:54 <pgroth> q+

Paul Groth: q+

15:47:54 <Luc> @GK, we have noted that too

Luc Moreau: @GK, we have noted that too

15:48:23 <Yogesh> Luc: bob

Luc Moreau: bob

15:48:25 <pgroth> I like it :-)

Paul Groth: I like it :-)

15:48:29 <Yogesh> ...looks bad

...looks bad

15:48:52 <Yogesh> Paolo: do not want to arbitrarilly choose terms till we have consensus

Paolo Missier: do not want to arbitrarilly choose terms till we have consensus

15:48:54 <GK> @Luc:  fine... having a document to talk about makes it easier to make constructive suggestions.  I'd like to *eliminate* bob, not rename.

Graham Klyne: @Luc: fine... having a document to talk about makes it easier to make constructive suggestions. I'd like to *eliminate* bob, not rename.

15:49:08 <Yogesh> Luc: it would be useful to have readable text by replacing "bob"

Luc Moreau: it would be useful to have readable text by replacing "bob"

15:49:14 <GK> Bits and bobs?

Graham Klyne: Bits and bobs?

15:49:14 <Yogesh> s/test/text/
15:49:16 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:49:54 <Luc> ack pgr

Luc Moreau: ack pgr

15:49:55 <Yogesh> Paolo: has been discussed in length, need to come up with something dignified.

Paolo Missier: has been discussed in length, need to come up with something dignified.

15:50:28 <Yogesh> pgroth: question on process. Had number of model "actions". Should we eliminate them and redo them?

Paul Groth: question on process. Had number of model "actions". Should we eliminate them and redo them?

15:51:06 <GK> +1 replace actions with issues against documents, as appropriate

Graham Klyne: +1 replace actions with issues against documents, as appropriate

15:51:07 <Yogesh> Luc: should review actions and contact relevant people

Luc Moreau: should review actions and contact relevant people

15:51:20 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:51:55 <Yogesh> GK: action 30 should be marked complete

Graham Klyne: ACTION-30 should be marked complete

15:51:57 <pgroth> will go through the actions

Paul Groth: will go through the actions

15:52:01 <Yogesh> Luc: will do.

Luc Moreau: will do.

15:52:05 <GK> :)

Graham Klyne: :)

15:52:27 <khalidbelhajjame> +q

Khalid Belhajjame: +q

15:52:31 <Yogesh> Luc: read document and raise issues. will discuss over email.

Luc Moreau: read document and raise issues. will discuss over email.

15:52:58 <Yogesh> khalidbelhajjame: raise issue for even minor things? Typo?

Khalid Belhajjame: raise issue for even minor things? Typo?

15:53:11 <Paolo> q+

Paolo Missier: q+

15:53:20 <Luc> ack ka

Luc Moreau: ack ka

15:53:21 <Yogesh> Luc: can be done thru mailing list so we get an archive

Luc Moreau: can be done thru mailing list so we get an archive

15:53:22 <khalidbelhajjame> -q

Khalid Belhajjame: -q

15:53:23 <Luc> ack kh

Luc Moreau: ack kh

15:53:23 <GK> Khalid: +1 don't necessarily raise issue for non-substantive changes if note in archoce without objection.

Khalid Belhajjame: +1 don't necessarily raise issue for non-substantive changes if note in archive without objection. [ Scribe Assist by Graham Klyne ]

15:53:29 <pgroth> also it's a mecurial repository

Paul Groth: also it's a mecurial repository

15:53:29 <Luc> ack pa

Luc Moreau: ack pa

15:53:36 <GK> s/archoce/archive/
15:53:49 <pgroth> q+ to respond

Paul Groth: q+ to respond

15:53:54 <Yogesh> Paolo: what is relationship between task force members and other WG members on commenting on doc?

Paolo Missier: what is relationship between task force members and other WG members on commenting on doc?

15:54:04 <Paolo> ack

Paolo Missier: ack

15:54:11 <Luc> we identified contributors/authors last week

Luc Moreau: we identified contributors/authors last week

15:54:26 <Zakim> -??P35

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P35

15:54:26 <GK> I expect any WG member can raise an issue against any document.

Graham Klyne: I expect any WG member can raise an issue against any document.

15:54:40 <pgroth> q-

Paul Groth: q-

15:54:41 <Yogesh> Pgroth: draft editors can ask for significant contributions from TF members.

Paul Groth: draft editors can ask for significant contributions from TF members.

15:54:42 <Zakim> +??P35

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P35

15:54:55 <Luc> subtopic: OWL Ontology progress review

6.2. OWL Ontology progress review

Summary: Satya indicated that an OWL ontology file will be committed in the mercurial repository by next week and that it will be followed by a document (the so-called formal model document) explaining the ontology.

<luc>Summary: Satya indicated that an OWL ontology file will be committed in the mercurial repository by next week and that it will be followed by a document (the so-called formal model document) explaining the ontology.
15:55:43 <Yogesh> Satya: there are two ontology doc. not sure how to merge. Description of ontology and actual owl file.

Satya Sahoo: there are two ontology doc. not sure how to merge. Description of ontology and actual owl file.

15:55:55 <Paolo> q+

Paolo Missier: q+

15:56:21 <Yogesh> Luc: it can just be owl file in repos and check it out thru web/mercurial

Luc Moreau: it can just be owl file in repos and check it out thru web/mercurial

15:56:42 <Yogesh> ...do we have an estimate on when we it will be ready?

...do we have an estimate on when we it will be ready?

15:56:44 <Paolo> @Satya: why did you do a branch rather than a module? if that makes sense

Paolo Missier: @Satya: why did you do a branch rather than a module? if that makes sense

15:56:50 <GK> q+

Graham Klyne: q+

15:56:51 <Yogesh> Satya: by next Thu

Satya Sahoo: by next Thu

15:57:04 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:57:09 <tlebo> is the owl file on http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov ?

Timothy Lebo: is the owl file on http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov ?

15:57:10 <Luc> ack paolo

Luc Moreau: ack paolo

15:57:12 <GK> q+ to ask about use of branch in repo for ontol

Graham Klyne: q+ to ask about use of branch in repo for ontol

15:57:16 <GK> q-

Graham Klyne: q-

15:57:27 <tlebo> +1 paolo's no branch request

Timothy Lebo: +1 paolo's no branch request

15:57:28 <Yogesh> Paolo: why do a repos branch than a module under model?

Paolo Missier: why do a repos branch than a module under model?

15:57:58 <Yogesh> satya: interpreted Luc's email as need to create branch.

Satya Sahoo: interpreted Luc's email as need to create branch.

15:58:08 <tlebo> +1 having a module for ontology without a new branch.

Timothy Lebo: +1 having a module for ontology without a new branch.

15:58:16 <Yogesh> paolo: branch is hard to merge.

Paolo Missier: branch is hard to merge.

15:58:25 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:58:26 <Yogesh> satya: will craete module instead of new branch

Satya Sahoo: will create module instead of new branch

15:58:40 <Yogesh> s/craete/create/
15:58:42 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:58:48 <Paolo> @Yogesh:  paOOOOOOOOlo :-)

Paolo Missier: @Yogesh: paOOOOOOOOlo :-)

15:58:50 <khalidbelhajjame> +q

Khalid Belhajjame: +q

15:58:54 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:58:57 <Luc> ack kha

Luc Moreau: ack kha

15:59:16 <Yogesh> @Paolo sorry :)

@Paolo sorry :)

15:59:29 <pgroth> there could be

Paul Groth: there could be

15:59:45 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:59:51 <stain> I guess there could be syntactic arguments :)

Stian Soiland-Reyes: I guess there could be syntactic arguments :)

16:00:06 <Luc> subtopic: Formal Semantics

6.3. Formal Semantics

Summary: JamesC explained why formal semantics could be appropriate and he illustrated several ways to go about it. This was followed by a discussion on the purpose of the semantics and what it brings over the OWL formalization. It was agreed this topic will be revisited once a first draft of the OWL ontology is available, trying to identify issues that would deserve a mathematical formalization and that are not covered by the OWL ontology.

<luc>Summary: JamesC explained why formal semantics could be appropriate and he illustrated several ways to go about it. This was followed by a discussion on the purpose of the semantics and what it brings over the OWL formalization. It was agreed this topic will be revisited once a first draft of the OWL ontology is available, trying to identify issues that would deserve a mathematical formalization and that are not covered by the OWL ontology.
16:00:25 <jcheney> http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/jcheney/pilformalsemantics.pdf

James Cheney: http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/jcheney/pilformalsemantics.pdf

16:01:07 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's noisy?

16:01:08 <Yogesh> jcheney: slide 2: wy formal semantics is important

James Cheney: slide 2: wy formal semantics is important

16:01:08 <stain> I love the romantic music

Stian Soiland-Reyes: I love the romantic music

16:01:17 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 27 (61%), +1.518.276.aahh (40%), MacTed (65%), jcheney (96%)

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 27 (61%), +1.518.276.aahh (40%), MacTed (65%), jcheney (96%)

16:01:31 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

16:01:31 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

16:01:41 <Yogesh> jcheney: smaller core languages for java

James Cheney: smaller core languages for java

16:02:01 <pgroth> Zakim, mute 27

Paul Groth: Zakim, mute 27

16:02:02 <Zakim> sorry, pgroth, I do not know which phone connection belongs to 27

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, pgroth, I do not know which phone connection belongs to 27

16:02:06 <Yogesh> ...description logic semantics, 1st order logic

...description logic semantics, 1st order logic

16:02:08 <GK> DL, OWL, FoL, RDF all underpinned by model theory

Graham Klyne: DL, OWL, FoL, RDF all underpinned by model theory

16:02:19 <pgroth> Zakim, mute +1.518.276.aahh

Paul Groth: Zakim, mute +1.518.276.aahh

16:02:19 <Zakim> +1.518.276.aahh should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: +1.518.276.aahh should now be muted

16:02:23 <Paolo> Zakim, mute ??27

Paolo Missier: Zakim, mute ??27

16:02:24 <Zakim> sorry, Paolo, I do not know which phone connection belongs to ??27

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, Paolo, I do not know which phone connection belongs to ??27

16:02:25 <satya> @GK: agree

Satya Sahoo: @GK: agree

16:02:31 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's here?

16:02:31 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, Luc, ??P8, Paolo, Curt, stain, tlebo, Yogesh, MacTed (muted), jcheney, Helena, +1.512.524.aaee, khalidbelhajjame,  +1.518.633.aaff,

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see pgroth, Luc, ??P8, Paolo, Curt, stain, tlebo, Yogesh, MacTed (muted), jcheney, Helena, +1.512.524.aaee, khalidbelhajjame, +1.518.633.aaff,

16:02:34 <Zakim> ... +49.302.093.aagg, ??P6, GK, +1.518.276.aahh (muted), dgarijo, ??P9, Sandro, +1.714.454.aaii, +1.860.673.aajj, stain.a, ??P48, ??P35

Zakim IRC Bot: ... +49.302.093.aagg, ??P6, GK, +1.518.276.aahh (muted), dgarijo, ??P9, Sandro, +1.714.454.aaii, +1.860.673.aajj, stain.a, ??P48, ??P35

16:02:40 <Yogesh> ...Not same sematics as "semantic web" but in representing human knowledge

...Not same sematics as "semantic web" but in representing human knowledge

16:02:41 <Zakim> On IRC I see Reza, JimMcCusker, StephenCresswell, Christine, jorn, JimM, dgarijo, olaf, zednik, Edoardo, dcorsar, GK, rgolden, GK1, khalidbelhajjame, jcheney, tlebo, satya,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Reza, JimMcCusker, StephenCresswell, Christine, jorn, JimM, dgarijo, olaf, zednik, Edoardo, dcorsar, GK, rgolden, GK1, khalidbelhajjame, jcheney, tlebo, satya,

16:02:47 <Zakim> ... Helena, Curt, Yogesh, Paolo, pgroth, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, MacTed, stain, edsu, sandro, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: ... Helena, Curt, Yogesh, Paolo, pgroth, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, MacTed, stain, edsu, sandro, trackbot

16:03:10 <Yogesh> ...Slide 3; not like a prog language. So why bother?

...Slide 3; not like a prog language. So why bother?

16:03:38 <Yogesh> ...identify which are individual entities

...identify which are individual entities

16:03:42 <GK> To some extent, if we have OWL definition we have some formal semantics automatically.  Certainly, use of model MUST NOT conflict with OWL or RDF formal semantics.

Graham Klyne: To some extent, if we have OWL definition we have some formal semantics automatically. Certainly, use of model MUST NOT conflict with OWL or RDF formal semantics.

16:03:49 <Yogesh> ...formal basis for design decisions

...formal basis for design decisions

16:03:57 <Yogesh> ...common starting point for users.

...common starting point for users.

16:04:11 <Yogesh> ...not confusing like english language

...not confusing like english language

16:04:33 <stain> @GK, but a formal model can better deal with use/generation time, IVPs etc

Stian Soiland-Reyes: @GK, but a formal model can better deal with use/generation time, IVPs etc

16:04:46 <Yogesh> ...people can make use of provenance without knowing how your system works

...people can make use of provenance without knowing how your system works

16:04:53 <GK> +1 start with _lightweight_ formal semantics (slide 7)

Graham Klyne: +1 start with _lightweight_ formal semantics (slide 7)

16:05:17 <Yogesh> ...avoid heavyweight

...avoid heavyweight

16:05:42 <Yogesh> ...inspiration from math model for data preservation

...inspiration from math model for data preservation

16:05:47 <Zakim> - +1.518.276.aahh

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.518.276.aahh

16:06:12 <Yogesh> ...Slide 4;

...Slide 4;

16:06:37 <GK> q+ to ask if this is introducing a new formal model framework, or is si=omething that can be described in terms existiong web formalists (e.g. OWL)?

Graham Klyne: q+ to ask if this is introducing a new formal model framework, or is si=omething that can be described in terms existiong web formalists (e.g. OWL)?

16:06:53 <Yogesh> ...two MS documents in different formats represent same information

...two MS documents in different formats represent same information

16:06:56 <satya> @james: I agree with your points on formal semantics, but I am confused how does what you have in proposal 1, 2, 3 relate to OWL/RDFS semantics

Satya Sahoo: @james: I agree with your points on formal semantics, but I am confused how does what you have in proposal 1, 2, 3 relate to OWL/RDFS semantics

16:06:57 <Reza> IMO, this is excellent.  This type of formalism will probably answer some of the concerns I have regarding the model.

Reza B'Far: IMO, this is excellent. This type of formalism will probably answer some of the concerns I have regarding the model.

16:07:05 <Yogesh> ...Slide 5;

...Slide 5;

16:07:11 <Reza> The formalism will at least drive at exact definitions.

Reza B'Far: The formalism will at least drive at exact definitions.

16:07:28 <Yogesh> ...information content has not changed even if preservation method has changed

...information content has not changed even if preservation method has changed

16:07:40 <Reza> How do we tie this type of formalism to the Model?

Reza B'Far: How do we tie this type of formalism to the Model?

16:07:56 <Yogesh> ...Slide 6; asking informally for agree, disagree, nont want to answer

...Slide 6; asking informally for agree, disagree, nont want to answer

16:08:24 <Yogesh> ...its in the charter but we need not *have* to do it

...its in the charter but we need not *have* to do it

16:09:17 <Yogesh> ...Slide 7; develop formalism along with model/schema

...Slide 7; develop formalism along with model/schema

16:09:54 <Yogesh> ...Slide 8; proposal 3 is for lightweight first version

...Slide 8; proposal 3 is for lightweight first version

16:10:09 <Zakim> -??P35

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P35

16:10:21 <Yogesh> ...can end up putting lot of effort that may not eventually make it

...can end up putting lot of effort that may not eventually make it

16:10:35 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:10:38 <Yogesh> ...Happy to talk about it with others

...Happy to talk about it with others

16:10:49 <khalidbelhajjame> +q

Khalid Belhajjame: +q

16:10:55 <Luc> ack gk

Luc Moreau: ack gk

16:10:55 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to ask if this is introducing a new formal model framework, or is si=omething that can be described in terms existiong web formalists (e.g. OWL)?

Zakim IRC Bot: GK, you wanted to ask if this is introducing a new formal model framework, or is si=omething that can be described in terms existiong web formalists (e.g. OWL)?

16:11:05 <Yogesh> GK: fan of formal semantics, but not too much. do not want to exclude

Graham Klyne: fan of formal semantics, but not too much. do not want to exclude

16:11:15 <Yogesh> ...as a result of formalism

...as a result of formalism

16:11:39 <Yogesh> ...Is it a new framework? May cause problems for adoption.

...Is it a new framework? May cause problems for adoption.

16:11:58 <pgroth> q+ to respond to GK

Paul Groth: q+ to respond to GK

16:12:00 <Yogesh> ...Cant we just use owl ontology that is in framework of web semantics?

...Cant we just use owl ontology that is in framework of web semantics?

16:12:18 <Yogesh> jcheney: not owl expert

James Cheney: not owl expert

16:12:44 <pgroth> q-

Paul Groth: q-

16:12:47 <satya> @james: capability of OWL (tractable fragment) is "sameAs" description logic

Satya Sahoo: @james: capability of OWL (tractable fragment) is "sameAs" description logic

16:12:48 <Yogesh> ...Did not want to take things too far to make them redundant with existing schemas

...Did not want to take things too far to make them redundant with existing schemas

16:13:37 <Yogesh> ...describe properties and relationships between artifacts. help with model interpretation.

...describe properties and relationships between artifacts. help with model interpretation.

16:14:05 <GK> I think that sounds like something that OWL described very naturally

Graham Klyne: I think that sounds like something that OWL described very naturally

16:14:18 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:14:26 <Yogesh> Luc: charter has something that said that formalism should capture math properties that cannot be captured in owl

Luc Moreau: charter has something that said that formalism should capture math properties that cannot be captured in owl

16:14:29 <satya> @Luc: Would those properties be expressed in RIF?

Satya Sahoo: @Luc: Would those properties be expressed in RIF?

16:14:47 <Luc> ack khal

Luc Moreau: ack khal

16:14:51 <Yogesh> GK: we can see if owl can do job or not if we start simple

Graham Klyne: we can see if owl can do job or not if we start simple

16:14:53 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:15:33 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:15:43 <Paolo> q+

Paolo Missier: q+

16:15:54 <Yogesh> khalidbelhajjame: why do we need formal model? will be helpful for public, but will also be helpful for model TF members to gain understanding and precise definition

Khalid Belhajjame: why do we need formal model? will be helpful for public, but will also be helpful for model TF members to gain understanding and precise definition

16:16:16 <GK> Khalid: +1 attempting a formal model helps to clarify ideas

Khalid Belhajjame: +1 attempting a formal model helps to clarify ideas [ Scribe Assist by Graham Klyne ]

16:16:17 <Yogesh> ...dont have lot of time. so light weight formal definition.

...dont have lot of time. so light weight formal definition.

16:16:42 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:16:47 <Yogesh> ...e.g. IVP Of, Bob, that are still being discussed

...e.g. IVP Of, Bob, that are still being discussed

16:17:13 <pgroth> q+

Paul Groth: q+

16:17:19 <pgroth> to respond

Paul Groth: to respond

16:17:21 <Luc> ack paolo

Luc Moreau: ack paolo

16:17:22 <Yogesh> Paolo: if we choose owl for semantics for data model, what is difference between formalism and @satya's owl efforts?

Paolo Missier: if we choose owl for semantics for data model, what is difference between formalism and @satya's owl efforts?

16:17:33 <Luc> ack pg

Luc Moreau: ack pg

16:17:49 <Yogesh> Pgroth: owl ontology trying to represent conceptual model in sematic web language

Paul Groth: owl ontology trying to represent conceptual model in sematic web language

16:17:58 <Yogesh> ...formalism is math description

...formalism is math description

16:18:04 <Reza> As an implementer, specially given the approach of the majority of folks is to err on the generic direction, I think the formalism will be very helpful.  The formalism will be much more clear than OWL in form of things like boundary conditions for the implementers.

Reza B'Far: As an implementer, specially given the approach of the majority of folks is to err on the generic direction, I think the formalism will be very helpful. The formalism will be much more clear than OWL in form of things like boundary conditions for the implementers.

16:18:08 <GK> @Paolo:  if OWL can capture the semantics, then there is no (necessary) difference, IMO,

Graham Klyne: @Paolo: if OWL can capture the semantics, then there is no (necessary) difference, IMO,

16:18:14 <Yogesh> ...If we choose description logic for math, it will map to owl easily

...If we choose description logic for math, it will map to owl easily

16:18:15 <satya> q+

Satya Sahoo: q+

16:18:38 <pgroth> q-

Paul Groth: q-

16:18:42 <Yogesh> ...Math gives different way for representing formal model constraints

...Math gives different way for representing formal model constraints

16:18:52 <Yogesh> Paolo: not fully convinced

Paolo Missier: not fully convinced

16:19:10 <Yogesh> ...owl DL was not for designed for semantics of programming language

...owl DL was not for designed for semantics of programming language

16:19:13 <GK> OWL *is* a DL language; mapping DL to OWL is misleading, IMO

Graham Klyne: OWL *is* a DL language; mapping DL to OWL is misleading, IMO

16:19:24 <Reza> Please remember that implementers will need to tie Query and Model together with some implementation (implement search algorithms, etc.) and having a formal Model provides boundary conditions (for example, what search algorithms may not be admissible, etc. based on the mathematical formalism)

Reza B'Far: Please remember that implementers will need to tie Query and Model together with some implementation (implement search algorithms, etc.) and having a formal Model provides boundary conditions (for example, what search algorithms may not be admissible, etc. based on the mathematical formalism)

16:19:41 <Paolo> @GK I know, thanks

Paolo Missier: @GK I know, thanks

16:19:48 <Yogesh> Pgroth: difference between formulas and owl

Paul Groth: difference between formulas and owl

16:20:15 <Yogesh> satya: @GK is echoing similar concerns

Satya Sahoo: @GK is echoing similar concerns

16:20:45 <Yogesh> ...if there are things we cannot model in owl, we can go to owl full and RIF

...if there are things we cannot model in owl, we can go to owl full and RIF

16:20:56 <satya> @Reza: That is exactly what encoding in OWL will do

Satya Sahoo: @Reza: That is exactly what encoding in OWL will do

16:21:14 <Yogesh> Luc: cannot resolve today. @jcheney, howshould we proceed?

Luc Moreau: cannot resolve today. @jcheney, howshould we proceed?

16:21:25 <Yogesh> jcheney: wanted to start discussion.

James Cheney: wanted to start discussion.

16:21:42 <Yogesh> ...Know about DL and first order logic, not owl

...Know about DL and first order logic, not owl

16:21:44 <khalidbelhajjame> I like prolog  :-)

Khalid Belhajjame: I like prolog :-)

16:21:49 <Paolo> +1 for the P-word (= Prolog)

Paolo Missier: +1 for the P-word (= Prolog)

16:21:50 <satya> @james: yes about RIF

Satya Sahoo: @james: yes about RIF

16:22:01 <Yogesh> ...Several views on what formal semantics is.

...Several views on what formal semantics is.

16:22:17 <Yogesh> ...Need not do things two ways if owl is sufficient

...Need not do things two ways if owl is sufficient

16:22:27 <dgarijo> RIF is compatible with Owl, right?

Daniel Garijo: RIF is compatible with Owl, right?

16:22:37 <Yogesh> ...Can come back to topics in 1-2 weeks when I come back with writeup

...Can come back to topics in 1-2 weeks when I come back with writeup

16:22:51 <Reza> I guess I'm just unsure that OWL can capture exact boundary conditions, etc.  Perhaps we can use the formalism that James wants as a test case to see if the ideas can or cannot be expressed in OWL.

Reza B'Far: I guess I'm just unsure that OWL can capture exact boundary conditions, etc. Perhaps we can use the formalism that James wants as a test case to see if the ideas can or cannot be expressed in OWL.

16:22:55 <GK> @jcheyney: if you write something down, there are ppl here who can help with expressing in OWL, if possible

Graham Klyne: @jcheyney: if you write something down, there are ppl here who can help with expressing in OWL, if possible

16:23:06 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:23:09 <Yogesh> Luc: satya will release first version of owl ontology in 1 week. we can schedule formalism discussion after that is done.

Luc Moreau: satya will release first version of owl ontology in 1 week. we can schedule formalism discussion after that is done.

16:23:15 <Luc> ack satya

Luc Moreau: ack satya

16:23:17 <pgroth> exactly, that's the point

Paul Groth: exactly, that's the point

16:23:31 <Yogesh> Satya: is scheduling telecon with Deborah. @jcheney is welcome to join

Satya Sahoo: is scheduling telecon with Deborah. @jcheney is welcome to join

16:23:35 <pgroth> we shouldn't be artifically constrainted by owl

Paul Groth: we shouldn't be artifically constrainted by owl

16:23:51 <pgroth> agree wiht Reza

Paul Groth: agree wiht Reza

16:23:54 <Yogesh> Luc: will work with jcheney to schedule call later

Luc Moreau: will work with jcheney to schedule call later

16:23:58 <Zakim> - +1.518.633.aaff

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.518.633.aaff

16:23:59 <Zakim> -tlebo

Zakim IRC Bot: -tlebo

16:23:59 <Zakim> -Paolo

Zakim IRC Bot: -Paolo

16:24:00 <Zakim> -dgarijo

Zakim IRC Bot: -dgarijo

16:24:00 <Zakim> - +1.860.673.aajj

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.860.673.aajj

16:24:01 <Zakim> - +1.512.524.aaee

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.512.524.aaee

16:24:01 <Zakim> -??P9

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P9

16:24:02 <Yogesh> meeting concluded

meeting concluded

16:24:03 <Zakim> -Luc

Zakim IRC Bot: -Luc

16:24:04 <Zakim> -jcheney

Zakim IRC Bot: -jcheney

16:24:06 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame

Zakim IRC Bot: -khalidbelhajjame

16:24:11 <Zakim> -pgroth

Zakim IRC Bot: -pgroth

16:24:12 <Zakim> -Curt

Zakim IRC Bot: -Curt

16:24:12 <Zakim> - +1.714.454.aaii

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.714.454.aaii

16:24:19 <Zakim> - +49.302.093.aagg

Zakim IRC Bot: - +49.302.093.aagg

16:24:21 <Zakim> -??P6

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P6

16:24:23 <Zakim> -MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed

16:24:26 <Zakim> -??P8

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P8

16:24:32 <Zakim> -stain

Zakim IRC Bot: -stain

16:24:35 <Zakim> -Yogesh

Zakim IRC Bot: -Yogesh

16:24:56 <Zakim> -Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro



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This revision (#2) generated 2011-07-25 07:00:52 UTC by 'unknown', comments: 'removed ronald'