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Chatlog 2012-01-25
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<sandro> PRESENT: PhilA, mhausenblas, cygri, BenediktKaempgen, csarven, boris, fadi, dvilasuero, BartvanLeeuwen, chrism, tina, george, bhyland, yigal, mikep, annew, gillman, simonwall, gerald, sandro, davereynolds, reck, erickson, christophe_gueret, stasinos <sandro> GUEST: Gofran Shukair <sandro> GUEST: Deirdre Lee <sandro> GUEST: Spyros Kotoulas <sandro> chair: bhyland, george 11:51:33 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #gld 11:51:33 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/01/25-gld-irc 11:51:36 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #gld 11:52:15 <sandro> zakim, this will be gld1 11:52:15 <Zakim> ok, sandro; I see SW_e-Gov( GLD)6:30AM scheduled to start 22 minutes ago 11:53:02 <mhausenblas> mhausenblas has joined #gld 11:53:02 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: Government Linked Data (GLD) WG -- F2F2 -- Code GLD1 -- http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/F2F2 11:53:16 <mhausenblas> ok, I guess we're set and ready! 11:54:03 <Zakim> SW_e-Gov( GLD)6:30AM has now started 11:54:10 <Zakim> +??P0 11:54:18 <Zakim> +sandro 11:55:42 <GeraldSteeman> GeraldSteeman has joined #GLD 11:57:09 <Zakim> +GeraldSteeman 11:57:41 <fadi> fadi has joined #gld 11:58:38 <Zakim> + +3539149aaaa 11:58:48 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aaaa is me 11:58:48 <Zakim> +mhausenblas; got it 11:58:56 <cygri> zakim, aaaa is galway 11:58:56 <Zakim> sorry, cygri, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa' 11:58:57 <mhausenblas> Zakim, fadi is with me 11:58:58 <Zakim> +fadi; got it 11:59:13 <BenediktKaempgen> BenediktKaempgen has joined #gld 11:59:22 <mhausenblas> Zakim, I am really galway 11:59:22 <Zakim> I don't understand 'I am really galway', mhausenblas 11:59:25 <boris_> boris_ has joined #gld 11:59:26 <cygri> zakim, mhausenblas is really galway 11:59:26 <Zakim> +galway; got it 11:59:26 <dvilasuero> dvilasuero has joined #gld 11:59:36 <cygri> zakim, mhausenblas is with galway 11:59:36 <Zakim> +mhausenblas; got it 11:59:45 <cygri> zakim, i'm with galway 11:59:45 <Zakim> +cygri; got it 12:00:01 <cygri> zakim, who is on the phone 12:00:01 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', cygri 12:00:09 <Deirdre> Deirdre has joined #gld 12:00:10 <cygri> zakim, who is on the phone? #12:00:21 <cygri> zakim who is on the phone? 12:00:29 <cygri> zakim, who is on the phone? 12:00:29 <Zakim> On the phone I see simonWall, sandro, GeraldSteeman, galway 12:00:30 <Zakim> galway has galway, mhausenblas, cygri 12:01:04 <cygri> zakim, BenediktKaempgen is with galway 12:01:04 <Zakim> +BenediktKaempgen; got it 12:01:07 <csarven> csarven has joined #gld 12:01:17 <cygri> zakim, csarven is with galway 12:01:17 <Zakim> +csarven; got it 12:01:21 <dvilasuero> zakim, dvilasuero is galway 12:01:21 <Zakim> sorry, dvilasuero, I do not recognize a party named 'dvilasuero' 12:01:24 <PhilA> PhilA has joined #gld 12:01:29 <boris_> zakim, boris is with galway 12:01:29 <Zakim> +boris; got it 12:01:30 <cygri> zakim, Deirdre is with galway 12:01:30 <Gofran> Gofran has joined #gld 12:01:30 <Zakim> +Deirdre; got it 12:01:38 <cygri> zakim, fadi is with galway 12:01:38 <Zakim> +fadi; got it 12:01:44 <cygri> zakim, Gofran is with galway 12:01:44 <Zakim> +Gofran; got it 12:01:49 <cygri> zakim, PhilA is with galway 12:01:49 <Zakim> +PhilA; got it 12:02:15 <BartvanLeeuwen> BartvanLeeuwen has joined #gld 12:02:17 <cygri> zakim, dvilasuero is with galway 12:02:17 <Zakim> +dvilasuero; got it 12:02:25 <cygri> zakim BartvanLeeuwen is with Galway 12:02:33 <cygri> zakim, BartvanLeeuwen is with Galway 12:02:33 <Zakim> +BartvanLeeuwen; got it 12:02:39 <cygri> zakim, who is on the phone? 12:02:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see simonWall (muted), sandro, GeraldSteeman, galway 12:02:40 <Zakim> galway has galway, mhausenblas, cygri, BenediktKaempgen, csarven, boris, Deirdre, fadi, Gofran, PhilA, dvilasuero, BartvanLeeuwen 12:03:09 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer? 12:03:09 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2012/01/25-gld-irc#T12-03-09 12:03:44 <sandro> RRSAgent, make logs public 12:04:07 <sandro> I'm thinking skype is the best bet. 12:04:15 <sandro> (with sound turned off) 12:06:32 <DeirdreLee> DeirdreLee has joined #gld 12:06:42 <Zakim> + +1.802.371.aabb 12:07:23 <Zakim> - +1.802.371.aabb 12:09:55 <mhausenblas> the only thing we now need (for both Zakim and skype) is .... 12:09:59 <mhausenblas> Washington! :) 12:10:07 <Zakim> + +1.802.371.aacc 12:10:27 <sandro> ( who is dvilasuero ? ) 12:10:36 <Zakim> + +1.202.691.aadd 12:10:51 <sandro> zakim, aadd is Washington 12:10:51 <Zakim> +Washington; got it 12:14:03 <tighten> tighten has joined #gld 12:14:09 <Zakim> - +1.802.371.aacc 12:14:19 <mhausenblas> Zakim, mute me 12:14:22 <Zakim> sorry, mhausenblas, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 12:14:29 <mhausenblas> Zakim, mute galway 12:14:29 <Zakim> galway should now be muted 12:15:17 <mhausenblas> Zakim, unmute galway 12:15:17 <Zakim> galway should no longer be muted 12:15:39 <cygri> sandro, dvialasuero is daniel vila from madrid 12:16:24 <cygri> it's richard.cyganiak 12:19:28 <mhausenblas> trackbot, start telecon 12:19:31 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 12:19:33 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GLD 12:19:33 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see SW_e-Gov( GLD)6:30AM already started 12:19:34 <trackbot> Meeting: Government Linked Data Working Group Teleconference 12:19:34 <trackbot> Date: 25 January 2012 12:19:53 <mhausenblas> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/F2F2#Wednesday.2C_25-Jan-2012 12:20:04 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here? 12:20:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see simonWall (muted), sandro, GeraldSteeman, galway, Washington 12:20:06 <Zakim> galway has galway, mhausenblas, cygri, BenediktKaempgen, csarven, boris, Deirdre, fadi, Gofran, PhilA, dvilasuero, BartvanLeeuwen 12:20:09 <Zakim> On IRC I see tighten, DeirdreLee, BartvanLeeuwen, PhilA, csarven, dvilasuero, boris, BenediktKaempgen, fadi, GeraldSteeman, mhausenblas, Zakim, RRSAgent, simonWall, cygri, rreck, 12:20:11 <Zakim> ... danbri, trackbot, sandro 12:20:20 <GofranS> GofranS has joined #gld 12:20:51 <mhausenblas> scribenick: mhausenblas 12:22:46 <bhyland> bhyland has joined #gld 12:22:48 <t_gheen> t_gheen has joined #gld 12:22:52 <bhyland> ping 12:22:59 <sandro> pong bhyland 12:24:09 <George> George has joined #gld 12:24:58 <mhausenblas> Topic: Introductions 12:25:18 <mhausenblas> PhilA: I'm in Galway, W3C staff 12:25:38 <Zakim> + +1.802.371.aaee 12:26:05 <mhausenblas> PhilA: I've been working on vocabularies, ADMS, DCAT, organisation ontology 12:26:49 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer? 12:26:49 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2012/01/25-gld-irc#T12-26-49 12:26:50 <mhausenblas> dvilasuero: In Galway, Master student with Boris (UPM) from Spain 12:27:21 <mhausenblas> fadi: In Galway, finished my MSc on Publishing Linked Gov Data, Google Refine, DCAT 12:28:11 <mhausenblas> boris: In Galway, UPM, we do Linked Government Data in Spain, will help facility vocab 12:28:42 <PhilA> mhausenblas: I'm co-hosting here. Head Linked Data section here at DERI 12:29:36 <mhausenblas> cygri: In Galway, LiDRC at DERI as well, I'm focusing on vocabs (DCAT, DataCube) and also other WG (RDF, RDB2RDF) 12:30:11 <mhausenblas> ... I'd like to learn about requirement for DataCube vocab, also DCAT 12:30:33 <mhausenblas> BartvanLeeuwen: In Galway - I'm a Semantic Fire Fighter from A'dam 12:30:58 <mhausenblas> ... doing Linked Open Data, looking for advise for best practices and share again 12:31:25 <PhilA> Note to self, need to talk to fadi about Dan Smith's work on Refine Extensions http://wiki.linkedgov.org/index.php/Extension 12:31:28 <mhausenblas> csarven: In Galway, MSc in LiDRC, with Michael and Richard, working on data-gov.ie, tooling around this 12:31:45 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #gld 12:32:14 <mhausenblas> GofranS: In Galway, MSc students in eGov unit at DERI, focusing on metadata i18y, ADMS 12:32:26 <Zakim> -GeraldSteeman 12:33:04 <mhausenblas> DeirdreLee: In Galway, heading the eGov unit in DERI, working with Vassilios of the EC 12:33:18 <Zakim> +GeraldSteeman 12:33:28 <mhausenblas> ... we're doing Open Data, policies, etc. 12:33:41 <mhausenblas> ... for example, DCAT is of interest 12:34:08 <Spyros> Spyros has joined #gld 12:34:16 <cygri> zakim, spyros is with galway 12:34:16 <Zakim> +spyros; got it 12:35:05 <mhausenblas> BenediktKaempgen: In Galway, from FZI in Karlsruhe, Germany 12:35:32 <mhausenblas> ... into business intelligence, interested to provide feedback for DataCube and other related efforts 12:35:44 <mhausenblas> ... such as SKOS extension for hieratchy 12:35:53 <mhausenblas> s/hieratchy/hierarchy 12:36:04 <mhausenblas> ... as well as versioning input 12:36:05 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 12:36:17 <DaveReynolds> zakim, IPcaller is me 12:36:17 <Zakim> +DaveReynolds; got it 12:36:24 <mhausenblas> ... we've published Eurostat and XBRL data 12:37:01 <mhausenblas> Spyros: In Galway, IBM SCTC in Dublin, we are into Linked Open Data publishing (dublinked.ie) 12:37:22 <mhausenblas> ... we do data management for Smart Cities using Linked Data 12:38:00 <sandro> first/last name spelling? 12:38:28 <sandro> I think I have everyone by Spyros on http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/meeting/2012-01-25 12:38:33 <sandro> s/by/but/ 12:38:35 <SpyrosKotoulas> SpyrosKotoulas has joined #gld 12:38:38 <Zakim> +rreck 12:38:39 <sandro> got it. 12:38:44 <Zakim> -rreck 12:39:09 <rreck> sheesh, it took 4 tries and then dropped 12:39:57 <cmusialek> cmusialek has joined #gld 12:40:01 <DaveReynolds> zakim, mute me 12:40:03 <Zakim> DaveReynolds should now be muted 12:40:06 <GofranShukair> GofranShukair has joined #gld 12:40:21 <cygri> cmusialek: Chris Musialek, working on data.gov 12:40:23 <George> cmusialek: GSA Data.gov lead, working on vocab.data.gov and other related GLD for Data.gov 12:40:36 <George> t_gheen: One World Law Library 12:40:53 <Zakim> +rreck 12:41:07 <rreck> whew, i called in 9 times 12:41:35 <bhyland> ping 12:41:40 <mhausenblas> pong 12:41:48 <George> t_gheen: Library of Congress 12:42:20 <danbri> danbri has joined #gld 12:42:27 <bhyland> Introducing George Thomas from US HEaltha & Human Services 12:43:19 <George> bhyland: 3RoundStones, GLD co-chair, US Gov LD initiatives (EPA), strong open source product orientation, more on Web Arch, Data Mgmt 12:43:37 <George> ... better tooling for Web2.0 app dev's for using RDF stack tech 12:43:38 <George> ... 12:43:44 <danbri> danbri has joined #gld 12:44:11 <George> objectives for F2F2 - focus on enabling aspects for GLD publishers, how to roll out LD projects 12:45:13 <George> ... value add to augment tech chops with mgmt understanding 12:45:16 <cygri> me sandro, it's Gofran Shukair and Benedikt Kämpgen 12:46:03 <George> Yigal (not in IRC) - working on Gov Grant vocab - 12:47:20 <George> ... been working with Gov Data for a long time, worked with Dan Gillman (BLS) 12:48:03 <George> Mike Pendleton (not on IRC) - EPA - doing LD projects, new approaches to data warehousing and publishing using LD 12:48:20 <George> ... interest and contribution in Procurement 12:48:59 <cgueret_work> cgueret_work has joined #gld 12:49:02 <George> Anne Washington (not on IRC) from George Mason University, Professor Public Policy, bkgrnd CS and IS 12:49:21 <George> ... interest and bckgrnd in Dig Archives, preservation incl metadata 12:49:21 <sandro> Okay, http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/meeting/2012-01-25 has everyone correctly listed (I think). 12:49:40 <George> ... need for external 'non-branded' info in determining scope and direction of GLD projects 12:49:52 <George> ... part of the W3C eGov IG 12:49:52 <mhausenblas> q+ 12:50:59 <Zakim> + +1.518.276.aaff 12:51:02 <Zakim> - +1.802.371.aaee 12:51:25 <Zakim> +??P4 12:51:35 <bhyland> q? 12:51:46 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/meeting/2012-01-25 12:51:49 <mhausenblas> q- 12:51:52 <Yigal> Yigal has joined #gld 12:52:20 <olyerickson> olyerickson has joined #GLD 12:52:29 <George> Dan Gillman (not yet on IRC) 12:52:37 <George> BLS, DC F2F2 host 12:52:45 <rreck> where is the video ? 12:52:49 <olyerickson> @bhyland I have been on in car, just arrived at TWCRPI 12:53:01 <olyerickson> zakim, I am aaff 12:53:01 <Zakim> +olyerickson; got it 12:53:06 <George> ... involved with metadata standards and requirements for access to statistical data (for 'quite some time' :) 12:53:37 <George> ... got involved with GLD through chair role of Open Gov Vocab WG (part of Fed CIO Council Data Arch Subcmt) 12:53:59 <George> ... interest in synergy and application of W3C/GLD to BLS data 12:54:15 <bhyland> w? 12:54:18 <mhausenblas> q? 12:54:19 <olyerickson> q+ 12:54:20 <bhyland> q/ 12:54:26 <olyerickson> q? 12:54:47 <George> olyerickson: Dir of Web Science Ops at TWC RPI 12:55:03 <mhausenblas> ack olyerickson 12:55:11 <George> ... project lead for logd.twc.rpi.edu - int gov cat search demo, govpedia.org project, others 12:56:28 <PhilA> regrets+ Hadley Beeman 12:56:40 <George> ... interest in firming up international BP guidance for GLD, co-leading URI construction session later today, also vocab rec's esp DCAT, (other good collab mojo) 12:57:48 <George> sandro: W3C primary staff contact with PhilA, key interest is making SemWeb work, GLD all ++, QB??, more :) 12:58:59 <George> GeraldSteeman: NASA S&T Info Prg Office, deliverable reviewer from lay-person persp, general interest in GLD 12:59:00 <mhausenblas> q+ to update on Gishlain status 12:59:36 <cygri> s/Gishlain/Ghislain/ 12:59:44 <George> ... bhyland adds contibutions from Gerald incl outreach at high levels 12:59:55 <DaveReynolds> zakim, unmute me 12:59:55 <Zakim> DaveReynolds should no longer be muted 13:01:27 <George> DaveReynolds: SW/LD long timer, CTO Epimorphics, UK Pub Sector - data.gov.uk (variety of offices/agencies), vocab work - Org Ont (UK Organogram with cygri and JT), QB, LDA co-developer (great stuff!), variety of edu/env publishing 13:01:37 <mhausenblas> ... Linked Data API see http://code.google.com/p/linked-data-api/ 13:01:46 <George> ... interests - mostly vocab with cygri etal 13:01:52 <t_gheen_> t_gheen_ has joined #gld 13:01:54 <mhausenblas> q? 13:02:00 <DaveReynolds> zakim, mute me 13:02:00 <Zakim> DaveReynolds should now be muted 13:02:19 <cygri> simonWall? 13:02:24 <PhilA> Picking up on DaveReynolds comments about the org ontology being used for organograms - here's an example http://data.gov.uk/organogram/department-for-business-innovation-and-skills 13:02:27 <sandro> zakim, unmute simonWall 13:02:27 <Zakim> simonWall should no longer be muted 13:03:29 <George> simonWall: morning! Dir of Data Mgmt Australian Bu of Stats - working on standardizing statistical data/metadata, statistics/statistics/statistics 13:03:32 <sandro> simonWall: I lead the Data Management Section at the Australian Bureau of Statistics (http://abs.gov.au). (in Canberra) 13:04:17 <George> ... unlike (sandro ;), most interested in QB vocab, role as influencer of international stat community, interest in LD, and W3 membership 13:04:48 <George> ... is alive and well :) 13:05:10 <t_gheen> t_gheen has joined #gld 13:07:24 <George> rreck: consultant in Wash DC, masters in comp linguistics, textual data & RDF thesis, published, working in law enforcement, working with vocabs, 3rd W3C (GRDDL, other?) group 13:07:55 <George> ... review props that influence stability of GLD, collab with AnneW 13:08:27 <cgueret_work> I'm here but you don't hear me 13:08:46 <cgueret_work> it's christophe gueret 13:08:49 <cygri> christophe gueret 13:08:51 <cgueret_work> from the VU 13:08:52 <cgueret_work> yep 13:08:56 <cgueret_work> should be 13:09:10 <PhilA> zakim, ??P4 is cgueret_work 13:09:10 <Zakim> +cgueret_work; got it 13:09:19 <cgueret_work> http://www.few.vu.nl/~cgueret 13:09:22 <cgueret_work> :/ 13:09:25 <cgueret_work> that's me :) 13:09:41 <PhilA> zakim, cgueret_work is really Christophe Gueret 13:09:41 <Zakim> I don't understand you, PhilA 13:09:41 <cgueret_work> thx :) 13:10:02 <PhilA> zakim, cgueret_work is ChristopheGueret 13:10:02 <Zakim> +ChristopheGueret; got it 13:10:32 <bhyland> Please look at http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/F2F2 13:11:27 <bhyland> Topic: DataCube vocab discussion update 13:11:40 <cygri> http://publishing-statistical-data.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/specs/src/main/html/cube.html 13:11:42 <sandro> cygri: we have a draft spec 13:12:00 <BenediktKaempgen> Wiki page: http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/Statistical_Cube_Data 13:12:03 <sandro> cygri: started in 2010, that's the current status : http://publishing-statistical-data.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/specs/src/main/html/cube.html 13:12:29 <mhausenblas> cygri: recently not that much activity re consumption 13:12:46 <mhausenblas> ... working on a generic client for any kind of DataCube data 13:13:12 <mhausenblas> ... we have quite some issues in the queue raised by people that have been using DataCube 13:13:29 <mhausenblas> ... suggestions for improvements and extensions (incl. from BenediktKaempgen) 13:13:34 <mhausenblas> cygri: next steps are 13:13:57 <mhausenblas> ... transferring the issues to GLD tracker 13:13:58 <cygri> http://code.google.com/p/publishing-statistical-data/issues/list 13:14:11 <mhausenblas> cygri: as well as discuss extensions in GLD 13:14:44 <DaveReynolds> zakim, unmute me 13:14:44 <Zakim> DaveReynolds should no longer be muted 13:14:48 <mhausenblas> q? 13:14:50 <mhausenblas> ack me 13:14:50 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to update on Gishlain status 13:15:05 <Mike_Pendleton> Mike_Pendleton has joined #gld 13:15:06 <mhausenblas> q+ to still update on G.'s status ;) 13:15:32 <mhausenblas> cygri: additionally we want to publish the current spec as a FPWD in the GLD 13:15:45 <mhausenblas> .. I do have an action on it anyways 13:16:46 <mhausenblas> cygri: in order to improve DataCube we should take into consideration all the valuable feedback 13:17:00 <DaveReynolds> q+ to agree with Richard :) 13:17:07 <PhilA> q+ 13:17:13 <mhausenblas> ... need to find a balance between quickly getting out a FPWD on it vs. incorporating the feedback 13:17:14 <mhausenblas> q? 13:17:27 <BenediktKaempgen> +q 13:17:36 <simonWall> +q 13:17:50 <George_> George_ has joined #gld 13:19:02 <PhilA> ack mich 13:19:06 <mhausenblas> ack me 13:19:06 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to still update on G.'s status ;) 13:19:11 <PhilA> ack mhausenblas 13:19:29 <PhilA> ack DaveReynolds 13:19:29 <Zakim> DaveReynolds, you wanted to agree with Richard :) 13:19:33 <mhausenblas> Michael: Seems Gihslain will join G'way later today 13:19:35 <DaveReynolds> ack me 13:19:52 <mhausenblas> DaveReynolds: Agree with what cygri said 13:20:08 <mhausenblas> ... need a canonical issues list and a FPWD of DataCube spec 13:20:35 <mhausenblas> ... need to remove ambiguities in the spec 13:20:48 <mhausenblas> ... folding in the experience from practice 13:20:49 <cygri> q+ to talk about use cases 13:21:19 <mhausenblas> DaveReynolds: DataCube has been used by a number of groups now, already 13:21:32 <mhausenblas> ... some co-ordination is needed 13:21:54 <mhausenblas> ... esp. re aggregation there has been quite some development in the SDMX world 13:22:01 <mhausenblas> q? 13:22:18 <cygri> DaveReynolds: coordination with standards from the Observations&Measurements area 13:23:38 <PhilA> q? 13:24:00 <mhausenblas> bhyland: Are people happy enough to move to the W3C space? 13:24:40 <mhausenblas> cygri: I think GLD is the appropriate space for this, yes 13:25:07 <mhausenblas> ... so far the work has happened in an informal space (cf. Google code repo) 13:26:15 <t_gheen> bhyland: what do we need to do? are the documents in good shape? How do we move forward and raise awareness? 13:26:23 <DruidSmith> DruidSmith has joined #gld 13:26:24 <PhilA> ack me 13:26:56 <mhausenblas> PhilA: From a process point of view we need to create a product for DataCube in the GLD tracker 13:27:16 <mhausenblas> ... and also for future products (DCAT, etc.) as currently there is only one product 13:27:35 <mhausenblas> cygri: Positiv 13:27:51 <mhausenblas> ACTION: PhilA to add products on issue tracker 13:27:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-29 - Add products on issue tracker [on Phil Archer - due 2012-02-01]. 13:27:51 <DanG> DanG has joined #gld 13:28:21 <cygri> ACTION: cygri to produce editor's draft of Data Cube spec 13:28:22 <trackbot> Created ACTION-30 - Produce editor's draft of Data Cube spec [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2012-02-01]. 13:28:32 <PhilA> q? 13:29:21 <mhausenblas> Michael: I assume FPWD of DataCube will be available together with the other FPWD on BP, etc.? 13:29:32 <mhausenblas> ... which would mean: soon 13:29:33 <mhausenblas> q? 13:29:43 <DaveReynolds> Agree with cygri that once have first working draft is a good time to see feedback. 13:29:47 <PhilA> ack BenediktKaempgen 13:29:52 <DaveReynolds> s/see/seek/ 13:30:38 <mhausenblas> BenediktKaempgen: Question re issues 13:30:52 <mhausenblas> ... how will they be grouped 13:31:45 <mhausenblas> BenediktKaempgen: Also, questions regarding consumption side 13:32:34 <DaveReynolds> We do see groups consuming live Data Cube data, including iPhone apps. So there is some active use to learn from. 13:32:50 <mhausenblas> cygri: My take on this is that the scope is backed up by the charter 13:33:15 <mhausenblas> ... so we need to be careful regarding how far we go, can't stray too far from this 13:33:36 <mhausenblas> ... but it's important that we're compatible with other related works such as DDI 13:34:08 <mhausenblas> ... agree with co-ordination with others, yes 13:34:29 <DaveReynolds> Agree with Richard, keep scope narrow as currently defined, but do a good job of co-ordination. 13:34:30 <mhausenblas> cygri: regarding consumption tools - we're producing a vocab, not a processor 13:34:31 <sandro> the charter says: "Statistical "Cube" Data. The group will produce a vocabulary, compatible with SDMX, for expressing some kinds of statistical data. This need not be as expressive as all of SDMX, but may provide a subset as in the RDF Data Cube vocabulary. It may also include ways to annotate data to indicate its assumptions and comparability." 13:34:49 <sandro> precended by: "The group will also produce documentation, examples, and, optionally, test cases and OWL ontologies for these vocabularies." 13:34:59 <mhausenblas> cygri: though, feedback from DataCube consumers would be beneficial 13:35:07 <bhyland> bhyland has joined #gld 13:35:12 <Zakim> -rreck 13:35:16 <bhyland> q? 13:35:20 <bhyland> ack cygri 13:35:20 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to talk about use cases 13:35:32 <sandro> on http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/charter 13:35:38 <sandro> mhausenblas, it's optional. 13:36:11 <bhyland> Question: Is this correct wiki page for updating the WG on progress, http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/Statistical_Cube_Data 13:36:13 <DaveReynolds> mhausenblas: it currently is OWL (for values of "OWL" that are basically RDFS :)) 13:36:19 <PhilA> ack simonWall 13:36:20 <bhyland> q? 13:36:44 <mhausenblas> simonWall: we're very active in the SDMX and DataCube space 13:37:29 <bhyland> q? 13:37:31 <Zakim> +rreck 13:37:41 <DaveReynolds> q+ possibly use real data as an example? 13:37:55 <mhausenblas> cygri: Would like to raise one more issue - does it make sense to also document use cases? 13:37:57 <DaveReynolds> q+, real examples? 13:38:02 <mhausenblas> Michael: +1 to use cases 13:38:10 <bhyland> cygri: Does it make sense to document use cases for vocabularies? 13:38:15 <PhilA> use cases are always good... 13:38:25 <mhausenblas> Michael: Yes, we're backed up by charter (cf. 'examples') 13:38:33 <bhyland> cygri: I think it is a good reality check to resolve design criteria issues. Helps with clarity 13:38:45 <PhilA> Although UCS are probably best recorded in a separate document 13:39:13 <mhausenblas> cygri: Matter of resources in the working group 13:39:22 <bhyland> cygri: Do we have the resources in the group to document use cases. 13:39:25 <bhyland> q+ 13:39:34 <BenediktKaempgen> +1 to use cases 13:39:42 <simonWall> +1 for use cases 13:39:54 <mhausenblas> q? 13:40:02 <PhilA> q- real 13:40:11 <cgueret_work> q- examples? 13:40:17 <dvilasuero> +1 for use cases 13:40:21 <t_gheen> bhyland: we are writing docs for real working people, so mapping to real world is important 13:40:24 <PhilA> ack bhyland 13:40:38 <cgueret_work> +1 to bhyland 13:40:48 <DaveReynolds> q? 13:40:51 <t_gheen> bhland: where is the wiki page to update progress for this? 13:41:04 <BenediktKaempgen> eg., http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/Statistical_Cube_Data 13:41:05 <DaveReynolds> q+ to talk about examples 13:41:05 <t_gheen> s/bhland/bhyland 13:41:11 <bhyland> Is this correct wiki page for updating the WG on progress, http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/Statistical_Cube_Data 13:41:33 <mhausenblas> cygri: AFAIK there is no single page that captures the current status 13:41:42 <mhausenblas> ... not really updated, also 13:41:52 <BenediktKaempgen> I updated it recently a bit. 13:42:11 <t_gheen> bhyland: recommend creating a high level page to organize the information 13:42:18 <mhausenblas> q? 13:42:36 <t_gheen> ... can people devote time to this effort over the next few months? 13:42:37 <DaveReynolds> ack me 13:42:37 <Zakim> DaveReynolds, you wanted to talk about examples 13:43:05 <mhausenblas> DaveReynolds: Yes, I can commit some time in the next 5 month, rather at the end 13:43:20 <mhausenblas> DaveReynolds: re UC, there are different needs 13:43:28 <mhausenblas> ... real data samples 13:43:41 <George> +1 DaveReynolds 13:43:45 <mhausenblas> +1 as well 13:44:13 <simonWall> +1 too 13:44:19 <rreck> oh too bad we didnt do it in google+ so others could have joined 13:44:54 <mhausenblas> DaveReynolds: UC in the sense cygri was talking about vs. real world samples 13:44:56 <sandro> rreck, maybe during a break we can experiment with other vid tech. 13:45:09 <mhausenblas> Michael: both would be good! 13:45:22 <sandro> rreck, also, I gather this is a commercial skype account that can do multi-way. 13:45:38 <rreck> oh? 13:45:44 <mhausenblas> DaveReynolds: also valuable to evangelise to document the usage 13:45:58 <mhausenblas> ... but not in the spec but a separate doc 13:45:59 <mhausenblas> q+ 13:46:02 <mhausenblas> q? 13:46:10 <George> DaveReynolds: additional note on how case-study/examples realize use cases 13:46:34 <mhausenblas> Michael: Agree with DaveReynolds to have a separate non-REC-Track doc on UC 13:46:36 <mhausenblas> 1- 13:46:38 <mhausenblas> q- 13:46:44 <PhilA> Sounds to me as if bhyland is talking about usage guidelines? 13:46:55 <sandro> or tutorials? not sure. 13:47:26 <t_gheen> bhyland: who can work on this? 13:47:47 <bhyland> Committment for DataCube/SDMX work offered by DaveReynolds, Richard, others? 13:47:47 <simonWall> +q 13:47:59 <bhyland> Add SimonWall to the list. 13:47:59 <mhausenblas> simonWall: count me in re UC 13:48:00 <PhilA> So the people working on the qb data are DaveReynolds, cygri, simonWall 13:48:11 <BenediktKaempgen> You can count me in also. 13:48:15 <t_gheen> bhyland: simonWall, DaveReynolds, cygri 13:48:32 <mhausenblas> q+ 13:48:36 <mhausenblas> ack simonWall 13:49:09 <DaveReynolds> zakim, mute me 13:49:09 <Zakim> DaveReynolds should now be muted 13:49:19 <mhausenblas> Topic: Vocabulary Selection discussion 13:49:41 <olyerickson> is there a Skype ccall that one could be included in for video? 13:49:54 <Yigal> Yigal has joined #Gld 13:49:57 <BenediktKaempgen> PhilA, can you add me, too? 13:50:04 <mhausenblas> boris: Please look at the slides at http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/images/6/65/VocabularySelection.pdf 13:50:07 <olyerickson> ...or is it only DC/Galway>? 13:50:52 <PhilA> So the people working on the qb data are DaveReynolds, cygri, simonWall, mhausenblas, BenediktKaempgen 13:52:38 <boris> http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/images/6/65/VocabularySelection.pdf 13:53:43 <cygri> boris: starting presentation on vocabulary selection 13:54:12 <cygri> ... charter says we need to provide guidelines to governments 13:54:44 <cygri> ... RDF requires specific domain terms in order to provide a certain domain 13:55:32 <cygri> ... modelling is important phase in data lifecycle 13:55:33 <bhyland> ping 13:55:57 <mhausenblas> pong 13:55:58 <cygri> ... (showing different data lifecycle models, they all have a modelling phase) 13:56:42 <cygri> ... big picture: 1. search for existing vocabularies in various search engines/repositories 13:56:53 <mhausenblas> q+ to note re suitability 13:57:04 <cygri> ... 2. if suitable is found, re-use it 13:57:16 <cygri> ... 3. otherwise, search for suitable thesauri etc 13:57:39 <cygri> ... 4. if those exist, build a vocabulary by transforming these resources into RDFS 13:58:03 <cygri> ... 5. otherwise, build from scratch. this happens if the domain is very new or complex. but doesn't happen so often 13:58:15 <bhyland> Encourage interactivity IMO 13:58:29 <bhyland> lol, co-chairs differ ;-) 13:58:36 <George> :) 13:59:13 <cygri> boris: there are multiple repositories for searching vocabularies, but no one definitive 13:59:18 <bhyland> No one central place to find a vocab is a feature, not a bug :-) 13:59:39 <cygri> ... (summary table of available repositories) 13:59:52 <mhausenblas> Michael: ontologi.es is in fact Melvin C ;) 14:00:41 <mhausenblas> s/Melvin C/Toby Inkster 14:01:11 <cygri> boris: there are no guidelines to help developers to decide which engine/repo to use 14:01:43 <olyerickson> Note that DataFAQs <https://github.com/timrdf/DataFAQs/wiki> will soon provide a statistical vocabulary ranking service based on use in the LOD cloud. I've asked them for a statement as to how this will work. Note also that they will provide a commmunity vocab ranking service soon as well 14:01:47 <mhausenblas> Michael: re relevant vocabs - ORG seems to be missing? 14:02:14 <cygri> boris: (summary list of gov-relevant vocabs) 14:02:15 <bhyland> @Michael, noted. I'll add. 14:02:23 <bhyland> This is a partial list 14:02:35 <cygri> ... probably need to include a few more 14:03:00 <mhausenblas> Michael: re vocabulary prefixes - my advise is simple - use prefix.cc 14:03:07 <cygri> ... there is a list of popular prefixes from the RDFa group 14:03:11 <DaveReynolds> Vocabulary list: would like to see org on there :) 14:03:24 <GofranShukair> also DOAP is missing 14:03:44 <Mike_Pendleton> Mike_Pendleton has joined #gld 14:03:47 <DaveReynolds> DOAP is on the previous list 14:04:19 <GofranShukair> yeah sorry now i see it :( 14:04:42 <DaveReynolds> But wasn't on the prefix list I don't think. 14:04:58 <cygri> boris: (demo of LOV - http://labs.mondeca.com/dataset/lov/suggest/ ) 14:05:01 <DaveReynolds> Not sure about BIBO as the one and only vocab in that area to single out, but not my field. 14:06:05 <cygri> boris: criteria for selecting a particular vocab/ontology 14:06:11 <dvilasuero> definately, if we have BIBO there we should have some other important library vocabs 14:06:21 <mhausenblas> q? 14:06:33 <George> LOV search - nice 14:06:36 <cygri> ... usage, maintenance, coverage, etc etc 14:06:58 <cygri> ... tools for building vocabularies: neologism, protege, ... 14:07:31 <bhyland> q? 14:07:37 <cygri> (LOV people are: Bertrand Vatant and Pierre-Yves Vandenbussche) 14:07:49 <BenediktKaempgen> +q 14:07:53 <mhausenblas> ack me 14:07:53 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to note re suitability 14:07:58 <George> ack mhausenblas 14:08:05 <cygri> q+ 14:08:17 <cygri> mhausenblas: what is “suitable”? how do you define this? 14:08:19 <George> mhausenblas: what is 'suitable'? 14:08:46 <cygri> ... give concrete advice how to figure out which competing vocabulary to use 14:08:56 <cygri> ... and advice when it makes sense to build your own 14:09:09 <George> ime suitability is often a vocab combo - ie org + vcard 14:09:16 <cygri> ... also important for suitability: does my data sparql well if expressed in this vocab? 14:09:20 <PhilA> q+ to agree with mhausenblas and add a bit more 14:09:37 <cygri> ... existence of multiple repos/engines not a problem. they do different things 14:09:45 <cygri> ... some crawl, some are curated 14:09:56 <olyerickson> I've asked DataFAQs people to compare/contrast their vocab ranking capability with LOV vocab ranking. 14:09:59 <cygri> ... if we had the resources: meta search engine? 14:10:12 <George> +1 vocab metacrawler at w3 14:10:14 <cygri> ... would have value if run at W3C 14:10:50 <cygri> ... our best practice document will be frozen in time, so static lists will go out of date 14:10:59 <olyerickson> +1 to more than vocab search; need ranking "vocabRank" or "schemaRank" 14:11:01 <cygri> ... perishable info should maybe not go in there 14:11:11 <BenediktKaempgen> q- 14:11:22 <mhausenblas> q? 14:11:25 <mhausenblas> ack cygri 14:11:33 <bhyland> The Best Practices Recommendation document will be almost "frozen" as of the publication data. The way we'll add flexibility to the Vocabs is through the community driven LOD Cookbook. 14:11:35 <mhausenblas> cygri: Agree with Michael 14:11:55 <bhyland> +1 to Michael 14:12:12 <olyerickson> GLD recommendation for "high quality" linked data is to use widely-used, relevant vocabularies *correctly* 14:12:22 <mhausenblas> cygri: we should avoid to create concrete suggestions what are suitable vocabs - it's arbitrary 14:12:38 <BartvanLeeuwen> q+ 14:12:39 <George> these are two diff gld deliverables tho - selection, and recommended 14:12:39 <olyerickson> The question is, how to find vocabs (a) in wide use (b) whether they are relevant 14:12:48 <DaveReynolds> +1 to Michael and Richard, W3C shouldn't be maintainer of such lists, especially not if that has implications on procurement 14:12:52 <GofranShukair> q+ 14:12:57 <mhausenblas> cygri: I'd like to see guidance on how to use the tools (check lists) to determine what is relevant, quality, etc, 14:13:05 <mhausenblas> q? 14:13:11 <bhyland> Cygri: For this WG, suggest that we have a basic sets of questions we ask the maintainer. We don't want to arbitrarily add vocabs. 14:13:12 <olyerickson> +1 to DaveReynolds ( by default ;) ) 14:13:13 <bhyland> q+ 14:13:32 <mhausenblas> boris: I agree with both Richard and Michael said 14:13:54 <olyerickson> I think surveys/questionaires/etc don't scale 14:13:55 <George> recommendation for domain agnostic - cross cutting vocabs for all GLD publishers... 14:13:55 <mhausenblas> q? 14:14:37 <cygri> bhyland: what do you mean by implications on procurement? 14:14:46 <George> snapshot problem regarding procurement and inclusion on some 'list' like a gld deliverable 14:15:05 <olyerickson> I think we should leverage the presence of vocabs "in the wild" (ie LOD Cloud) to assist selection 14:15:50 <bhyland> q? 14:16:17 <mhausenblas> ack PhilA 14:16:17 <Zakim> PhilA, you wanted to agree with mhausenblas and add a bit more 14:16:24 <cygri> mhausenblas: it's a competitive advantage if my vocab is w3c-listed and yours isn't. best practice document will be frozen in time 14:16:39 <cygri> PhilA: here are some criteria: 14:16:46 <cygri> ... 1. permanence of domain name 14:17:04 <cygri> ... for example, LOV service URL looks not permanent. that's bad. 14:17:17 <George> gov consortium mandates are nice ... 14:17:37 <rreck> I think we should call URLs URLs not URIs 14:17:41 <cygri> ... 2. change control. who's in charge of changing it? 14:17:50 <mhausenblas> q+ re change control and vocab ownership 14:17:55 <cygri> ... dublin core has a large committee in charge, so changing it is hard. that's good 14:18:03 <cygri> ... 3. is it actually used in the wild? 14:18:17 <bhyland> q? 14:18:21 <cygri> ... we should point out these criteria even if it may be very hard to evaluate in practice 14:18:26 <cygri> +1 to all PhilA said 14:18:52 <cygri> BartvanLeeuwen: should also point out that local language documentation is important 14:19:00 <sandro> +1 BartvanLeeuwen -- another criterion is support for multiple languages, eg in the documentation for the vocabulary 14:19:06 <cgueret_work> +1 too 14:19:14 <GofranShukair> +1 too 14:19:17 <cygri> ... ideally, vocabularies should have documentation in multiple languages 14:19:19 <cgueret_work> vocabs should be properly described in several languages 14:19:51 <George> q? 14:20:06 <George> ack BartvanLeeuwen 14:20:27 <mhausenblas> Michael: We need to distinguish between vocab discovery and vocab creation guidelines, I believe 14:20:49 <cygri> boris: most vocabs are english but governments speak all sorts of languages. we have work in progress on how to express multilingual vocabs on the web of data 14:21:05 <George> GofranShukair: ADMS 14:21:12 <cygri> GofranShukair: ADMS describes semantic assets. that includes vocabularies 14:21:19 <GofranShukair> http://joinup.ec.europa.eu/asset/adms/home 14:21:37 <George> ack GofranShukair 14:21:45 <cygri> ... we describe� metadata, incl language 14:21:50 <cygri> ... ready for review 14:22:06 <cygri> q? 14:22:18 <mhausenblas> ack bhyland 14:22:20 <George> ack bhyland 14:22:48 <boris> I can take the action 14:23:08 <cgueret_work> will be pleased to contribute with French concerns 14:23:19 <mhausenblas> ACTION: boris to create a Wiki page on multi-lingualism of vocabs 14:23:19 <trackbot> Created ACTION-31 - Create a Wiki page on multi-lingualism of vocabs [on Boris Villazón-Terrazas - due 2012-02-01]. 14:23:20 <cygri> bhyland: multilingual issues are important. awareness should be raised. please, write a blurb on this 14:23:20 <GofranShukair> http://joinup.ec.europa.eu/asset/adms/home 14:23:55 <cygri> q+ 14:24:18 <olyerickson> In addition to the multilingual vocab issue, there is the multilingual instance data issue --- english predicates but literals in other languages. 14:24:20 <cygri> bhyland: having criteria for inclusion of vocabularies is important. let us draft a list of vocabularies. 14:24:45 <mhausenblas> q? 14:24:53 <cygri> ... where is it hosted? university? production system? what's the institution's commitment to maintenance? 14:25:08 <MacTed> MacTed has joined #gld 14:25:43 <cygri> ... we should work on such a checklist over the next two days 14:25:44 <sandro> +1000 14:25:45 <cgueret_work> +1 14:25:47 <mhausenblas> Michael: we should maybe also talk about vocab management (what is the process to add new terms? who owns the namespace? hit-by-truck scenario) 14:25:53 <George> ack mhausenblas 14:25:53 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to discuss change control and vocab ownership 14:26:17 <PhilA> +1 to bernadette's suggestions for capturing criteria for vocab selection 14:26:23 <cygri> mhausenblas: there can be issues around ownership of namespace, hit by bus risk etc 14:26:37 <rreck> +1 namespace ownership problems 14:26:42 <George> mhausenblas: namespace ownership, distinguish btw discovery, management, creation advice - more will discover than create - 14:26:46 <cygri> ... need to distinguish between vocabulary search and vocabulary creation. different issues 14:26:49 <sandro> +1 bhyland: during these two days let's start the checklist of things people need to look for in deciding whether a vocab is good enough, such as stability, domain name, point of contact, etc. 14:27:13 <rreck> I have had commercial clients unwilling to use existing namespaces because of copyright exposure 14:27:25 <cygri> ... experience shows that something can start informally and move to something more formal, e.g. story of VoID 14:27:26 <PhilA> PhilA: notes that danbri has solved the "what happens if I go under a bus" issue through an agreement with DCMI (so FOAF is as stable as DC) 14:27:29 <sandro> ( I don't think bhland said we should produce a list of vocabs. ) 14:27:57 <sandro> q? 14:28:02 <cygri> ... so we can say there's a process that can take you from informal work to something permanent and fit for purpose 14:28:28 <sandro> q+ to suggest the document include fears/nightmare-scenarios 14:28:33 <George> q? 14:28:57 <cygri> mhausenblas: i like checklists 14:29:02 <rreck> +1 14:29:12 <mhausenblas> +1 to sandro's ' fears/nightmare-scenarios' 14:30:01 <sandro> charter quote: "Vocabulary Selection. The group will provide advice on how governments should select RDF vocabulary terms (URIs), including advice as to when they should mint their own. This advice will take into account issues of stability, security, and long-term maintenance commitment, as well as other factors that may arise during the group's work." 14:30:52 <sandro> +1 cygri: don't list vocabs, just list how to evaluate vocabs 14:30:55 <mhausenblas> Michael: Does the WG interpret this in the sense of 'we provide checklist how to' or rather 'list concrete vocabs'? 14:31:06 <mhausenblas> Michael: I'd very much prefer the former 14:31:18 <t_gheen> t_gheen has joined #gld 14:31:20 <George> cygri: lists of recommended vocabs in bp vocab selection? instead, criteria list for selection - then there's std vocabs for cross cutting GLD publisher concerns - nice delineation 14:31:32 <mhausenblas> +1 14:31:47 <simonWall> +1 14:31:50 <mhausenblas> q? 14:31:52 <mhausenblas> ack cygri 14:31:57 <PhilA> q+ to make 2 suggestions for vocab selection if you want me to, or I'll park it if time is short 14:32:06 <cygri> sandro: i agree. arbitrary lists would be a problem 14:32:07 <DaveReynolds> +1 to cygri, criteria not lists 14:32:26 <cygri> sandro: we might explain that criteria list in terms of "nightmare scenarios" 14:32:29 <George> sandro: how to write this 'checklist' - nice to explain in terms of issues/challenges (fears/nightmare-scenarios) 14:32:38 <George> +1 cygri 14:32:49 <cygri> ... "here are possible things that could go wrong. check how the vocabulary or its maintainers deals with that" 14:33:03 <George> q? 14:33:04 <cygri> ... this would bring it to life 14:33:21 <cygri> bhyland: i agree but can we put a positive spin on it? 14:33:23 <George> ack sandro 14:33:23 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to suggest the document include fears/nightmare-scenarios 14:33:35 <cygri> PhilA: for the record: it would be horrible if danbri was hit by a bus. 14:33:36 <George> ack PhilA 14:33:36 <Zakim> PhilA, you wanted to make 2 suggestions for vocab selection if you want me to, or I'll park it if time is short 14:33:37 <George> q? 14:33:59 <cygri> PhilA: national part of domains matter 14:34:09 <cygri> ... but you can use .us in .ie 14:34:15 <cygri> q+ 14:34:21 <cgueret_work> +1 to PhilA 14:34:32 <Yigal> Yigal has joined #gld 14:34:38 <cygri> ... multilingual: want to use dublin core in finnish? don't reinvent it. provide a translation with finnish labels 14:34:40 <BartvanLeeuwen> +1 to PhilA 14:35:24 <George> ack cygri 14:35:30 <George> cygri: +1 provide labels for existing vocab/namespace 14:35:46 <rreck> we should mention Z39.19? 14:36:02 <George> ... common issue/problem/mistake 14:36:03 <simonWall> The Finnish National Library maintains the Finnish version of Dublin Core... 14:36:03 <rreck> skos 14:36:27 <George> mhausenblas: label as 'quality requirement' 14:36:29 <cygri> mhausenblas: some quality criteria can be expressed as sparql queries 14:36:33 <cygri> ... for example presence of labels 14:36:38 <George> q? 14:36:51 <PhilA> PhilA: chose Finnish at random - but good to see that my entirely random choice is ahead of the game, simonWall 14:37:30 <cygri> ACTION: mhausenblas to compile first version of vocabulary selection quality checklist 14:37:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-32 - Compile first version of vocabulary selection quality checklist [on Michael Hausenblas - due 2012-02-01]. 14:37:47 <DaveReynolds> Having the label in the URI for vocab terms is a multi-language issue for some folks. There is genuine argument on both sides whether opaque URIs + labels in all languages is better than having one preferred language reflected in the URIs. 14:37:59 <mhausenblas> Michael: Z39.19 sounds interesting indeed, thanks rreck! 14:38:05 <simonWall> Point taken (I googled that one; I do know that the New Zealand National Library maintains the Maori version of DC though.) 14:38:19 <cygri> ACTION-31? 14:38:19 <trackbot> ACTION-31 -- Boris Villazón-Terrazas to create a Wiki page on multi-lingualism of vocabs -- due 2012-02-01 -- OPEN 14:38:19 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/track/actions/31 14:38:20 <dvilasuero> *mhausenblas: i could help with that action 14:38:56 <Zakim> +sandro.a 14:39:05 <rreck> i have done alot of work with z39.19 and multi-lingual representation 14:39:07 <Zakim> -sandro 14:39:32 <cygri> DaveReynolds, do you have some pointers re multilingual URIs? would be good to include the debate in that wiki page 14:40:32 <cygri> topic: Legacy Data 14:40:41 <SpyrosKotoulas> http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/File:LegacyData.pdf 14:41:07 <cygri> scribenick: BenediktKaempgen 14:41:34 <DaveReynolds> cygri: would have to dig, the OBO world has best practice advice on using opaque URIs which might be relevant. Also I have annedotal evidence though would need to be circumspect about to phrase that in public :) 14:41:34 <BenediktKaempgen> Spyros: On Dublin data rdfized to RDF 14:41:49 <DaveReynolds> s/about/about how/ 14:42:24 <mhausenblas> q+ on the term 'legacy data' 14:42:28 <BenediktKaempgen> ... what is legacy data? Is gov supposed to transform all data (e..g., pdfs, scan, xsl)? 14:42:45 <BenediktKaempgen> ... most data from relational db 14:42:50 <dvilasuero> cygri: we also have a paper for las dc conf on multilingual URIs 14:43:01 <stasinos> stasinos has joined #gld 14:43:07 <dvilasuero> where we review obo and others 14:43:30 <BenediktKaempgen> ... often also: geo data, temporal data (statistics), record oriented relational data (e.g., about citizens) 14:43:46 <PhilA> Spyros' slides are now linked from the agenda 14:44:24 <PhilA> scribe: BenediktKaempgen 14:45:02 <mhausenblas> q+ re prioritisation of data sources - demand driven 14:45:22 <BenediktKaempgen> ... concerns: privacy issues (who can assess whether something is privacy sensitive?), how much to publish (efficiently, considering the costs), ... 14:46:23 <bhyland> bhyland has joined #gld 14:46:26 <bhyland> ping 14:46:27 <BenediktKaempgen> ... considering risks with opening up data; how about institutions that are not quite government 14:47:00 <bhyland> Sorry is this is a repeat, per the charter on legacy data: "Legacy Data. The group will produce specific advice concerning how to expose legacy data, data which is being maintained in pre-existing (non-linked-data) systems. 14:47:02 <olyerickson> olyerickson has joined #GLD 14:47:25 <BenediktKaempgen> ... also technical issues: architecture, what visualizations (applications consuming data), how to facilitate use by non-experts 14:47:46 <George> q? 14:48:21 <BenediktKaempgen> ... how to automate such processes 14:48:58 <BenediktKaempgen> ... how to provide guidance/template/references/cookbook for processes 14:49:16 <DaveReynolds> q+ to ask what makes this 'legacy' 14:49:30 <BenediktKaempgen> ... transforming data into RDF often possible but might be awkward 14:49:39 <bhyland> q? 14:49:48 <mhausenblas> ack me 14:49:48 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to comment on the term 'legacy data' and to discuss prioritisation of data sources - demand driven 14:50:33 <olyerickson> I think we should consider referring to "data life cycle" ala http://www.ddialliance.org/what (DDI Alliance) 14:50:40 <BenediktKaempgen> mhausenblas: two reactions: term legacy data, maybe we should use a different term (e.g., raw data) #14:50:48 <davidwood_> davidwood_ has joined #gld #14:51:20 <bhyland> zakim, davidwood is me #14:51:20 <Zakim> sorry, bhyland, I do not recognize a party named 'davidwood' #14:51:43 <davidwood_> bhyland, please check your phone for immediate text message requiring your action. Sorry to interrupt. 14:51:44 <olyerickson> I think the core question is, what best practices for data life cycle management should this group make that pertain to GLD? #14:51:50 <davidwood_> davidwood_ has left #gld 14:51:52 <BenediktKaempgen> ... Secondly, question always: where to start publishing data? Uptake then further drives publishing process. User-pull rather than publisher-push. 14:52:36 <bhyland> q? 14:52:43 <PhilA> ack DaveReynolds 14:52:43 <DaveReynolds> ack me 14:52:44 <Zakim> DaveReynolds, you wanted to ask what makes this 'legacy' 14:52:51 <George> me thinks we're talking about exposing RDB's ergo R2RML 14:53:02 <cygri> q+ 14:53:20 <mhausenblas> Michael: re multimedia interlinking see http://events.linkeddata.org/ldow2009/papers/ldow2009_paper17.pdf 14:53:28 <BenediktKaempgen> DaveReynolds: RDF can walk along "legacy"/raw data 14:53:32 <mhausenblas> q? 14:53:54 <BenediktKaempgen> ... Representing key parts in raw data/legacy is difficult. 14:54:42 <DaveReynolds> zakim, mute me 14:54:42 <Zakim> DaveReynolds should now be muted 14:54:46 <George> +1 - exposing these existing/emerging W3 works for this 14:54:50 <bhyland> q? 14:54:51 <George> q? 14:54:56 <BenediktKaempgen> Richard: We should list related work (R2RML, M, Griddle, xslt...) 14:54:56 <bhyland> q? 14:55:01 <mhausenblas> cygri: There are a number of existing W3C standards that already address the transformation part (R2RML, GRDDL, etc.) 14:55:08 <cygri> ack me 14:55:18 <olyerickson> I think the real issue is how to integrate LD best practices with your existing data life cycle management infrastructure 14:55:37 <mhausenblas> +1 to what olyerickson 14:55:38 <t_gheen> bhyland: Spyros points out how broad the description of legacy data is in the charter 14:55:47 <t_gheen> ... we should set some boundaries 14:55:48 <dvilasuero> +1 olyericksson 14:55:50 <BenediktKaempgen> Bhyland: How to bound this topic? 14:55:52 <mhausenblas> s/what olyerickson/what olyerickson said 14:55:52 <cygri> +1 to byhland. bounding is important 14:55:53 <mhausenblas> 1+ 14:55:56 <mhausenblas> q+ 14:56:13 <mhausenblas> Michael: Scope should be on W3C standards and then expand 14:56:31 <bhyland> q? 14:56:38 <mhausenblas> ack me 14:56:41 <olyerickson> @bhyland please re-state what to take a stab at... 14:56:46 <BenediktKaempgen> Topic: Legacy Data discussion 14:57:22 <bhyland> bhyland: the charter is very broad in the description of what is to be included in the "Legacy" section of the BP Recommendation. 14:57:28 <BenediktKaempgen> mhausenblas: What resources are available? 14:57:42 <cygri> q+ 14:57:55 <bhyland> We need to bound it. Suggest we put some lines in the sand as to what is "in" and we'll be able to reasonably do within the next 6 mos in this WG. 14:58:09 <George> mhausenblas: IBM Biplav/Spiros resource committment to drive expeccted 'legacy' contribution 14:58:35 <PhilA> q+ 14:58:37 <bhyland> Spyros is here on behalf of IBM and is an invited guest of the F2F. Thus, he cannot make make committments for IBM to this WG. 14:59:33 <mhausenblas> q? 14:59:35 <cygri> mhausenblas: if we go for a broad interpretation of this topic, then we need people and volunteers 14:59:50 <mhausenblas> ack cygri 15:00:14 <BenediktKaempgen> cygri: Agree with boundaries. Good starting point would be W3C standards. 15:00:24 <PhilA> q- 15:00:36 <danbri> danbri has joined #gld 15:00:41 <t_gheen> t_gheen has joined #gld 15:00:53 <rreck> better arbitrary than nothing? 15:00:55 <BenediktKaempgen> cygri: E.g., it would be helpful to describe tools. Risk to be arbitrary with inclusion. 15:01:09 <mhausenblas> q+ re tools 15:01:12 <bhyland_> bhyland_ has joined #gld 15:01:17 <George> cygri: standards, tools, approaches 15:01:39 <BenediktKaempgen> cygri: Also useful to describe approaches, e.g., for modelling. 15:01:47 <olyerickson> Hmmm...this is the first time I realized we were talking about CONVERSION 15:02:07 <George> q? 15:02:11 <BenediktKaempgen> ... There should be experiences in WG to give recommendations on such processes. 15:02:13 <mhausenblas> Michael: Against listing tools explicit, but rather provide examples of tool catalogs such as found http://www4.wiwiss.fu-berlin.de/latc/toollibrary/ and a http://www.planet-data.eu/results/datasets-and-tools 15:02:16 <George> ack mhausenblas 15:02:16 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to discuss tools 15:02:18 <DeirdreLee> q+ 15:02:35 <bhyland_> We have some of the content Cygri is describing in the current LOD cookbook, especially as it relates to the auto conversion vs. human-involved modeling. 15:02:45 <bhyland_> q? 15:02:49 <rreck> +1 point at the wiki makes good sense 15:03:02 <BenediktKaempgen> mhausenblas: Problem with tools is that they can get outdated. 15:03:04 <cygri> olyerickson: i converted a price from dollars to pounds recently 15:03:21 <BenediktKaempgen> ... Similar to Vocabulary case, have a checklist. 15:03:37 <bhyland_> MichaelH: His bias is on describing checklist approach rather than a specific list of tools which will become dated over time. 15:03:43 <olyerickson> @cygri that's the "right" direction, isn't it? 15:03:45 <cygri> q+ 15:03:48 <mhausenblas> q? 15:03:54 <mhausenblas> ack DeirdreLee 15:03:56 <bhyland_> ack DeidreLee 15:04:05 <Yigal> Yigal has joined #gld 15:04:27 <BenediktKaempgen> DeirdreLee: Agrees with not describing tools. But in case of vocabularies makes sense. 15:04:54 <olyerickson> q+ 15:05:24 <BenediktKaempgen> ... Users demands would help with legacy issues. 15:05:30 <PhilA> ack cygri 15:05:40 <stasinos> stasinos has joined #gld 15:06:47 <BenediktKaempgen> cygri: Agrees with seeing transforming legacy data as a process that needs to be a compromise of effort and benefit. Start with metadata, concept schemes, and later go on with the acutal raw data. Looking at users will really be useful. 15:07:02 <DeirdreLee> q? 15:07:04 <stasinos> cf. http://users.iit.demokritos.gr/~konstant/ 15:07:06 <DeirdreLee> q+ 15:07:43 <bhyland_> cygri: Handling legacy AKA "raw data" has some logical starting points and (could go on infinitely). Address misconceptions about converting to RDF as an "augmentation" to existing system. Others convert to RDF and that is it. 15:07:46 <olyerickson> +1 to cygri 15:07:49 <PhilA> ack olyerickson 15:07:56 <BenediktKaempgen> ... Important w.r.t. legacy data: What does it actually mean? What does it implicate? Regarding on the situation, specific approaches may make more sense than others (e.g., transformaing most data into RDF). 15:08:02 <DanG> DanG has joined #gld 15:08:35 <Zakim> +??P10 15:08:44 <mhausenblas> q+ to ask if we can agree on a term now, please? should we use original data? source data? 15:08:50 <stasinos> Zakim, ??P10 is stasinos 15:08:50 <Zakim> +stasinos; got it 15:09:23 <mhausenblas> Michael: Suggest to think along TimBL's 5 star scheme http://5stardata.info/ 15:09:28 <mhausenblas> q? 15:09:57 <BenediktKaempgen> olyerickson: Discussion about legacy is not usefull if not seen from perspective of a certain scenario. Best-practice they need is to continuously manage their data. 15:10:11 <George> Refine+DERI_extensions and R2RML covers 80% of the GLD publisher waterfront afaic - i'd love to see standards, tools, approaches covering spreadsheets and RDB's 15:10:21 <cygri> olyerickson, i didn't see the link you mentioned? 15:10:33 <rreck> +1 concrete examples are essential 15:10:34 <DaveReynolds> +1 to olyerikson - focus on Linked Data as an access approach and how it ties in to existing data management practice, avoid terms like "legacy" 15:10:38 <BenediktKaempgen> ... Life examples of tools of how to get specific issues done, might be useful. 15:10:40 <George> q? 15:10:47 <PhilA> ack DeirdreLee 15:10:58 <olyerickson> link to DDI Alliance http://www.ddialliance.org/what 15:11:03 <cygri> q+ to suggest talking about standards instead of tools when possible 15:11:08 <bhyland_> Olyerickson: Feels we walk a line between decribing checklists to evaluate vs. associating specific tools to "get the job done." 15:11:21 <olyerickson> Link to ANDS recommendations http://ands.org.au/guides/index.html 15:11:46 <PhilA> q+ 15:12:22 <cygri> olyerickson, are you aware of https://github.com/FranckCo/DDIOnto ? 15:12:23 <mhausenblas> ack me 15:12:23 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to ask if we can agree on a term now, please? should we use original data? source data? 15:12:25 <bhyland_> Time check: 3 minutes until tea break 15:12:42 <PhilA> q- 15:12:46 <cygri> ack me 15:12:46 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to suggest talking about standards instead of tools when possible 15:12:52 <BenediktKaempgen> DeirdreLee: Concrete example: EU Inspires (?) data publishing very cumbersome. To sell the approaches to government may be very difficult. 15:12:53 <DaveReynolds> Aside: INSPIRE can be met via linked data, e.g. UK has proposed URI guidelines for naming INSIPRE spatial objects. 15:12:54 <George> +1 source data (although I don't have any 'legacy' heartburn...) 15:12:54 <bhyland_> Agreed: Legacy data to be recast as "raw data" 15:13:06 <olyerickson> @cygri No I wasn't, thanks! 15:13:17 <DanG> Legacy? How about "metadata-challenged" 15:13:30 <BenediktKaempgen> mhausenblas: Shall we use a different term than legacy. Suggestion: See it in terms of TimBL star schema. 15:13:50 <DeirdreLee> legacy/raw data is 'existing' data. Linked Data is simply an extra way to represent 'existing' data 15:13:53 <George> +1 to hopping TBL's 'raw data' bandwagon, however 'raw data' is a misnomer in my gov experience 15:13:59 <BenediktKaempgen> ... rename legacy to raw data. 15:14:23 <DaveReynolds> -1 to "raw data" that caused problems when TBL used it 15:14:36 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: To use 'raw data' rather then 'legcay data' along TimBL's 5 star scheme 15:14:37 <cygri> kind of -1 to "raw data". statisticians hate that 15:14:44 <PhilA> Proposal: To use the term 'Raw Data' to refer to existing data 15:14:48 <olyerickson> +1 to "source data" over "raw data"... 15:14:59 <cygri> "non-RDF data"? 15:15:00 <dvilasuero> +1 to source data 15:15:08 <PhilA> Proposal: Not carried 15:15:12 <cygri> "spreadsheets" 15:15:29 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: To use 'source data' rather then 'legacy data' along TimBL's 5 star scheme 15:15:33 <BenediktKaempgen> ???: Mainly about spreadheets and relational data. 15:15:37 <mhausenblas> q? 15:15:42 <mhausenblas> ack sandro 15:16:02 <cygri> +2 to sandro 15:16:28 <stasinos> "pre-formal"? 15:16:40 <danbri> danbri has joined #gld 15:16:56 <olyerickson> +1 to exposing...what? ;) 15:17:26 <bhyland_> OK, chairs have conferred and we agree ... "Source Data" 15:17:35 <olyerickson> mhausenblas' proposal seconded... 15:17:35 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: To use 'non-RDF data' rather then 'legacy data' along TimBL's 5 star scheme 15:17:39 <BenediktKaempgen> mhausenblas: how to call that first publing working draft 15:17:52 <simonWall> unlinked data! 15:17:55 <cgueret_work> -1 to non RDF 15:17:58 <rreck> non-RDF is stilted 15:18:12 <PhilA> -1 to non-RDF 15:18:13 <rreck> +1 bio 15:18:17 <cgueret_work> @simonWall some RDF is also unlinked 15:18:27 <boris> no open data? 15:18:27 <olyerickson> +1 to bladder relief... 15:18:28 <PhilA> +1 to source data 15:18:34 <DaveReynolds> +0 on "source data", it means some different but in a less harmful way than "raw data" 15:18:35 <cgueret_work> +1 to source data 15:18:42 <rreck> +1 source data 15:18:51 <cygri> +0.5 to source data. not my favourite but could work well enough. 15:19:09 <BenediktKaempgen> +1 source data 15:19:50 <mhausenblas> bhyland_: we resume at 10:30am/3:30pm 15:19:56 <Zakim> -galway 15:20:01 <Zakim> -sandro 15:20:02 <Zakim> -rreck 15:20:06 <Zakim> -stasinos 15:20:18 <olyerickson> are we hanging up? 15:20:31 <cmusialek> cmusialek has joined #gld 15:21:01 <Zakim> -simonWall 15:30:00 <sandro> q? 15:30:42 <Zakim> +sandro 15:31:19 <olyerickson> olyerickson has joined #GLD 15:31:27 <olyerickson> olyerickson has left #GLD 15:31:30 <olyerickson> olyerickson has joined #GLD 15:31:39 <olyerickson> do we have to dial in again? 15:31:51 <olyerickson> ...or is everyone on mute? 15:33:49 <t_gheen> t_gheen has joined #gld 15:33:51 <George> George has joined #gld 15:33:57 <bhyland_> ping, is the Galway team read to resume? 15:34:11 <mhausenblas> yes 15:34:13 <mhausenblas> sorry 15:34:32 <sandro> "Interfacing to Existing Data System" 15:34:38 <sandro> "Providing an RDF Interface" 15:34:39 <BenediktKaempgen> Galway is coming... 15:34:40 <sandro> "RDF Interfaces" 15:34:44 <sandro> galway ping 15:34:46 <sandro> cygri, mhausenblas ... 15:34:59 <Zakim> +galway 15:35:16 <Zakim> +??P9 15:35:27 <stasinos> Zakim, ??P9 is stasinos 15:35:28 <Zakim> +stasinos; got it 15:35:29 <cygri> zakim, i'm with galway 15:35:29 <Zakim> +cygri; got it 15:35:40 <sandro> "Providing RDF Interfaces" 15:35:59 <bhyland_> -1 to non-RDF. I prefer "Source Data" 15:36:15 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: To use 'source data' rather then 'legacy data' along TimBL's 5 star scheme 15:36:15 <bhyland_> +1 PhilA 15:36:21 <cygri> +0.5 15:36:27 <cgueret_work> +1 to "source" too 15:36:30 <cygri> +0.5 to source data 15:36:54 <DaveReynolds> +0 on "source data", it means some different but in a less harmful way than "raw data" 15:36:55 <olyerickson> zakim, SUM(sourceData) 15:36:55 <Zakim> I don't understand 'SUM(sourceData)', olyerickson 15:37:12 <BenediktKaempgen> +1 source data (although domain specific/original data would be more clear) 15:37:25 <cgueret_work> and what about "genuine data" ? :) 15:37:28 <bhyland_> Proposal for replacement name, it has a "use by date" of at least the FPWD 15:37:31 <sandro> sandro: the default is we dont revisit decisions. 15:37:35 <boris> +0.98 to "source data" 15:37:37 <bhyland_> Agreed: "Source Data" 15:37:47 <cgueret_work> cool 15:37:50 <mhausenblas> RESOLUTION: To use 'source data' rather then 'legacy data' along TimBL's 5 star scheme 15:37:54 <Zakim> +??P11 15:37:57 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:37:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/25-gld-minutes.html mhausenblas 15:38:06 <sandro> +0 source data okay as long as it's open to revisiting before LC. ( -1 to this term forever) 15:38:16 <mhausenblas> q? 15:38:43 <boris> http://logd.tw.rpi.edu/sites/default/files/w3c_gld_uri_construction_25jan12.pdf 15:38:46 <BenediktKaempgen> Topic: URI Construction discussion 15:40:22 <BenediktKaempgen> olyerickson: we have general URI recommendations, e.g., data patterns. 15:40:56 <BenediktKaempgen> dvilasuero: Agrees. 15:41:26 <bhyland_> What do you mean missing? 15:42:07 <BenediktKaempgen> olyerickson: instance-hub-uri-design makes it possible to re-host uris 15:42:31 <BenediktKaempgen> ... re-host, i.e. move to a different architecture after testing 15:42:37 <DanG> DanG has joined #gld 15:43:21 <BenediktKaempgen> ... requirements to uri creation approach: no need to make URI self-describing, non-domain-specific 15:43:22 <bhyland_> yes, Michael, it must be. I see legacy discussion in two parts in fact. 15:44:13 <DanG> DanG has joined #gld 15:44:32 <cygri> q+ 15:44:53 <PhilA> q+ to caution against using the org component, slide 3 15:45:24 <DaveReynolds> q+ 15:45:52 <BenediktKaempgen> ... major parts: id, org, category/token 15:47:39 <DanG> What about using subject matter categories rather than agency based ones? They won't die if the agency does. 15:47:46 <BenediktKaempgen> ... explanations of examples are linked from the wiki, e.g. in best practices document 15:48:33 <DaveReynolds> DanG - UK recommendation is def to use subject matter and avoid agencies 15:48:36 <BenediktKaempgen> ... room for discussion. 15:48:36 <bhyland_> q? 15:48:43 <Yigal> q+ 15:48:46 <PhilA> ack cygri 15:49:29 <olyerickson> This is NOT a recommendation; it's simply what we are ucing 15:49:35 <olyerickson> s/ucing/using/ 15:49:46 <bhyland_> @Michael - we're planning to break in 15-20 minutes, when we've completed or at least come to natural break point in URI discussion. We have to walk to get our lunch. 15:50:28 <simonWall> I was planning to be gone by now, good night all. 15:50:29 <BenediktKaempgen> Richard: Good handle of what the section should say. Small concern: some guidelines are applicable everywhere,e.g., slashes, stability; other aspects that apply only to specific use cases. UK gov guidelines mostly only apply to specific environments. 15:50:53 <BenediktKaempgen> ... E.g., re-hosting is something quite specific. 15:51:04 <olyerickson> @cygri good point; that was "merely" RPI's requirement ;) 15:51:05 <bhyland_> cygri: The main focus should be on stuff that is "true everywhere". 15:51:33 <bhyland_> What always applies vs. more specific example that could be better described as use cases. 15:51:34 <BenediktKaempgen> ... Recommendations should be more generic. Needed: To abstract from the use cases of TWC or UK gov to have a less complicated design. 15:52:11 <bhyland_> Example from DERI, re: data.gov.ie project ... 15:52:31 <mhausenblas> s/data.gov.ie/http://data-gov.ie 15:52:32 <Zakim> -simonWall 15:52:42 <BenediktKaempgen> ... approach was to complicated, but this was realized only afterwards. 15:52:49 <George> q? 15:52:50 <dvilasuero> +1 cygri 15:52:53 <PhilA> ack me 15:52:53 <Zakim> PhilA, you wanted to caution against using the org component, slide 3 15:53:42 <BenediktKaempgen> PhilA: Concern: Names of governments departements change very often, should not be included in URI. Similar goes for locations. 15:53:53 <bhyland_> How about if we provide 1) background on the imporance of URI strategy; 2) the value of persistence strategy; 3) detail the issues involved to evaluate a URI scheme 15:53:55 <bhyland_> q? 15:56:00 <BenediktKaempgen> olyerickson: Good point. But there is always the question whether create URIs from the concepts (from the actual data). If modelled from the data, then even if concepts changed, at that time of modelling the data was valid and as such the URIs are valid still, also. 15:56:52 <Yigal> Yigal has joined #gld 15:56:53 <stasinos> q+ 15:56:55 <olyerickson> _dammit or /dammit ?;) 15:56:55 <mhausenblas> Michael: I don't see much of a point in criticising RPI's work now - he made it clear it's an example, not the recommendation 15:57:21 <olyerickson> +1 to sandro's point 15:57:32 <BenediktKaempgen> sandro: important to have a plan in case a name changes. 15:57:37 <DaveReynolds> ack me 15:57:45 <bhyland_> NB: We aren't criticizing RPIs URI draft ... it gave us something in black & white to discuss. Therefore it is good & useful IMO. 15:58:03 <George> {sector}.data.gov.*/id/{thing-type}/{instance}/natural/instance/hierarchy 15:59:00 <cygri> really good point 15:59:11 <DeirdreLee> DeirdreLee has joined #gld 15:59:13 <mhausenblas> +1 to Dave's wise words re scalability of URI spaces via sub-domains 15:59:33 <bhyland_> DaveReynolds: Describe constants: 1) the constants (e.g., sectors for the UK). 2) use of sub-domains to allow for autonomy within gov't authorities. 3) explain scalability implications involved depending on URI structure. Explain URI construction and allude to performance issues ... 16:00:04 <mhausenblas> +1 16:00:06 <George> q? 16:00:07 <bhyland_> ... Separating the advice of what to do vs. if you don't do it, you'll get bitten in the bum 16:00:08 <stasinos> +1 16:00:09 <dvilasuero> +1 16:00:10 <bhyland_> q? 16:00:11 <DeirdreLee> Stale URIs (from non-existant depts) will make the data look stale, even if it's brand new.... 16:00:19 <BenediktKaempgen> DaveReynolds: Depends on the use of URIs: stabilized, architecture-dependent. Separation of tools that allow to create uris and the methods of how to deal with issues afterwards. 16:00:20 <George> ack Yigal 16:01:45 <mhausenblas> Michael: We're implicitly assuming transparent URIs now 16:01:49 <BenediktKaempgen> Yigal: also responsibilities change. We need to think about temporal issues such as at what time did uri represent something. 16:02:02 <olyerickson> q+ 16:02:09 <mhausenblas> Michael: also known as hackable URIs 16:02:24 <George> ack sandro 16:02:37 <George> Yigal: temporal aspect in URI? which HHS? responsibilities change even if/when orgs don't 16:02:41 <t_gheen> t_gheen has joined #gld 16:03:14 <DaveReynolds> For those who may not be aware ... as well as the original UK recommendations http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/media/308995/public_sector_uri.pdf there are recommendations about spatial objects (as relates to the EU INSPIRE directive) http://location.defra.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Designing_URI_Sets_for_Location-V1.0.pdf useful example of patterns of things beyond "id" and "def" 16:03:32 <Zakim> -sandro 16:03:35 <cygri> +1 to point out ways in which things can/will break 16:03:52 <George> q? 16:03:52 <Zakim> +sandro 16:04:00 <BenediktKaempgen> bhyland: We need to bound URI construction topic. 16:04:42 <stasinos> q- 16:05:11 <BenediktKaempgen> ... On the one hand best practices should be valid as long as possible. On the other hand it should also include more specific issues. 16:06:16 <olyerickson> q? 16:06:21 <BenediktKaempgen> ... cannot tell Google, Yahoo which vocabularies to use. 16:06:22 <olyerickson> q? 16:06:34 <olyerickson> q? 16:06:49 <olyerickson> q? 16:06:50 <BenediktKaempgen> :-) thanks PhilA. Can someone scribe? 16:07:00 <bhyland> bhyland has joined #gld 16:07:13 <PhilA> scribe: PhilA 16:07:14 <BenediktKaempgen> Thanks. 16:07:22 <cygri> q+ 16:07:23 <bhyland> ping 16:07:27 <cmusialek> sorry about that! 16:07:46 <PhilA> olyerickson: I'd like to propose that the guidance we're getting -> we should transform what we have so far into a check list or decision tree 16:08:02 <cmusialek> thanks! 16:08:08 <DruidSmith> DruidSmith has joined #gld 16:08:15 <bhyland> sorry from all of us in DC .. we seem to get aperiodically dropped from our guest network and there is no explicit notification ... 16:08:19 <PhilA> olyerickson: highlight the issues. What we're saying is what we did, what we thought about and why we did it 16:08:29 <bhyland> and worst, we loose the IRC history :-( 16:08:39 <bhyland> s/worst/worse of all/ 16:09:32 <George> q? 16:09:40 <mhausenblas> q? 16:09:44 <George> ack olyerickson 16:09:53 <DanG> DanG has joined #gld 16:10:16 <Yigal> Yigal has joined #gld 16:10:39 <George> UK guidance also talks about /def (controversy!) and /dataset among other topics 16:10:47 <PhilA> bhyland: I would say, not having read the UK guidance in 8 months or so - that's more comprehensive and thought out. We should consider others (and strip out the UK-specific stuff) 16:10:49 <bhyland> q? 16:10:57 <PhilA> sandro: I like the decision tree idea a lot 16:11:01 <olyerickson> +1 to "decision tree" idea 16:11:33 <PhilA> sandro: "Don't do this" or it will cause problems later and "you probably don't want to do this but you may have reasons not to" and so on 16:12:21 <PhilA> bhyland: cmusialekhas a mission to do today. I don't think the guidance is ready for him. The RPI draft is a good input - needs to be discussed further 16:12:26 <olyerickson> "RPI thing" is not a draft...it's what we did and why ;) 16:12:59 <cygri> q? 16:13:08 <olyerickson> Wait a minute...I think ChrisM is a test subject and should actually 16:13:13 <PhilA> cmusialek: I'm less familiar with the intricacies of URI design. But I'm hearing that it's time to act from the US gov and maybe get 80% right 16:13:17 <bhyland> s/cmusialekhas/cmusialek/ 16:13:22 <PhilA> olyerickson: I'm going to disagree with you, bhyland 16:13:54 <PhilA> olyerickson: We're not saying to Chris, go ahead and use this. I'm saying "try it, see what breaks and let us know" 16:14:08 <bhyland> Olyerickson is saying the draft RPI URI guidance is a proposal ... try it and give us feedback. 16:14:11 <PhilA> olyerickson: I'd also say take a look at the UK advice and tell us what the problem is 16:14:22 <DeirdreLee> +1 Olyerickson 16:14:25 <bhyland> RPI has used the RPI version for a very specific case. 16:14:27 <PhilA> olyerickson: We've used ours for a very specific case 16:14:35 <DeirdreLee> community drives standards or standards drive community? 16:14:53 <bhyland> q? 16:14:55 <PhilA> The former DeirdreLee (if it's to be used) 16:14:57 <bhyland> q+ 16:15:18 <mhausenblas> ack cygri 16:15:29 <PhilA> cygri: I wanted to say that in terms of structuring these BP Recommendations, I agree with sandro and mhausenblas to structure these as a list 16:15:49 <PhilA> cygri: Seems a good way to teach/inform 16:15:54 <olyerickson> +1 to cautioning about what might go wrong...BUT it needs to be informed advice 16:16:19 <George> q? 16:16:22 <PhilA> cygri: Have you thought about future change? Is there 'cruft' in there (scribe doesn't recognise the term cruft but that's life) 16:16:25 <boris> +1 to richard 16:16:26 <mhausenblas> ack bhyland 16:16:30 <mhausenblas> +10000 to cygri 16:16:35 <George> ack bhyland 16:17:25 <PhilA> bhyland: I appreciate John's request for data.gov to take the RPI advice and see how it works. That might be the RPI state, but I'm not sure it's the W3C position as it hasn't been sanctioned by the WG 16:17:31 <cygri> olyerickson, who suggested giving uninformed advice? ;-) 16:17:32 <olyerickson> +1 to keeping things separate 16:18:04 <olyerickson> q+ then break 16:18:32 <cygri> ack then, 16:18:38 <cygri> ack break 16:18:38 <olyerickson> @cygri I didn't mean...hmmm...what did I mean ;) 16:18:45 <cygri> ack then 16:18:54 <bhyland> AnneW: How do we iterate through a suggested set of guidelines & recommendations? 16:19:29 <olyerickson> PROPOSAL: URI sub-team work on a check-list for URI construction 16:19:29 <cmusialek> cmusialek has joined #gld 16:19:31 <PhilA> sandro: The WG is supposed to iterate on the doc until everyone agrees with it 16:19:38 <PhilA> ... then it goes to the outside world 16:19:43 <PhilA> ... etc. 16:19:45 <mhausenblas> +1 to olyerickson proposal 16:19:58 <boris> +1 to oleyrickson 16:20:03 <bhyland> sandro: The normal W3C process is that the group reviews and once they don't have any problems with it, then goes to last candidate review for feedback. 16:20:09 <dvilasuero> +1 to oleyrickson 16:20:46 <PhilA> bhyland: What RPI has provided is a draft. But let's encourage cmusialek to be part of the discussion as it continues to evolve 16:20:54 <olyerickson> +1 to cmusialek et.al. be part of the conversation 16:20:56 <Zakim> +rreck 16:20:59 <bhyland> q? 16:21:07 <PhilA> bhyland: Are we at a natural breaking point? 16:21:08 <Yigal> In reference to using Congressional Districts as example: Is everyone aware that these are redrawn every 10 years? 16:21:11 <PhilA> GalwayL YES 16:21:35 <Zakim> -stasinos 16:21:44 <olyerickson> are we hanging up? 16:21:50 <mhausenblas> reconvene at 12:25 and 5:15pm 16:22:01 <olyerickson> I can also stay on bridge... 16:22:02 <mhausenblas> Zakim, mute galway 16:22:02 <Zakim> galway should now be muted 16:22:10 <mhausenblas> reconvene at 12:15 and 5:15pm 16:22:26 <olyerickson> zakim, mute olyerickson. 16:22:26 <Zakim> olyerickson should now be muted 16:22:31 <mhausenblas> Zakim, unmute galway 16:22:31 <Zakim> galway should no longer be muted 16:24:13 <mhausenblas> Zakim, mute galway 16:24:13 <Zakim> galway should now be muted 16:24:18 <Zakim> -sandro 16:24:24 <Zakim> -rreck 16:24:31 <Zakim> -GeraldSteeman 16:27:06 <Zakim> -DaveReynolds 16:28:14 <PhilA> Wiki record of these minutes is up to date at this point 16:36:18 <olyerickson> Note for the "Vocabulary Selection" team: check out the recent addition to DataFAQs re: the role of vocabulary selection in Linked data quality https://github.com/timrdf/DataFAQs/wiki/Assisting-vocabulary-selection 16:43:26 <mhausenblas> I have to go now, unfortunately, Richard is taking over Galway. Literally. :) 16:50:17 <boris> boris has joined #gld 17:09:18 <Zakim> +sandro 17:10:24 <PhilA> sandro: the Washington room is still empty (the video link is showing us that). I can ping you when we're about to reconvene if you like? 17:22:09 <mhausenblas> mhausenblas has joined #gld 17:22:19 <DeirdreLee> DeirdreLee has joined #gld 17:25:06 <Zakim> -galway 17:25:19 <dvilasuero> dvilasuero has joined #gld 17:25:48 <cygri> zkim, code 17:25:52 <cygri> zakim, code? 17:25:52 <Zakim> the conference code is 4531 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), cygri 17:26:01 <Zakim> +galway 17:27:24 <Zakim> +??P1 17:27:29 <dvilasuero> zakim, dvilasuero is with galway 17:27:29 <Zakim> +dvilasuero; got it 17:27:34 <DaveReynolds> zakim, ??P1 is me 17:27:34 <Zakim> +DaveReynolds; got it 17:27:42 <dvilasuero> zakim, boris is with galway 17:27:42 <Zakim> +boris; got it 17:27:59 <olyerickson> zakim, who is one the phone? 17:27:59 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, olyerickson. 17:28:09 <olyerickson> zakim, who is on the phone? 17:28:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see Washington, olyerickson (muted), ChristopheGueret, sandro, galway, DaveReynolds 17:28:12 <Zakim> galway has galway, dvilasuero, boris 17:28:37 <PhilA> zakim, galway has BartvanLeeuwen, BenediktKaempgen, boris, cygri, DeirdreLee, dvilasuero, fadi, GofranShukair, PhilA, SpyrosKotoulas 17:28:37 <Zakim> boris was already listed in galway, PhilA 17:28:38 <Zakim> dvilasuero was already listed in galway, PhilA 17:28:39 <cygri> zakim, i'm with galway 17:28:40 <Zakim> +BartvanLeeuwen, BenediktKaempgen, cygri, DeirdreLee, fadi, GofranShukair, PhilA, SpyrosKotoulas; got it 17:28:43 <boris> zakim, csarven is with galway 17:28:44 <Zakim> cygri was already listed in galway, cygri 17:28:47 <Zakim> +csarven; got it 17:29:56 <t_gheen> t_gheen has joined #gld 17:31:00 <PhilA> Topic: Discussion on Best Practices for Publishing Government Linked Data (FPWD) 17:31:27 <PhilA> bern: Did a big restructuring of the wiki page yesterday 17:33:07 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/charter 17:33:16 <George_> George_ has joined #gld 17:33:22 <PhilA> BernHyland: Two questions - how do we move from a wiki to a FPWD, and how do we reflect fture changes 17:33:32 <PhilA> s/fture/future/ 17:33:50 <PhilA> sandro: We can publish directly from the wiki using a transformation script we have 17:34:09 <PhilA> sandro: It's called RevDoc. It's only my WGs that have used it 17:34:13 <PhilA> ... so far 17:34:17 <PhilA> ... code is not polished 17:34:32 <PhilA> ... alternative is to convert to respec which a lot of folk prefer 17:34:36 <Zakim> +GeraldSteeman 17:35:03 <PhilA> bernHyland: does it require your help to use RevDoc? 17:35:14 <PhilA> sandro: yes - incantations and bones are involved 17:35:22 <PhilA> sandro: it could be useful but there are alternatives 17:36:00 <PhilA> bernHyland: Respec is the alternative 17:36:13 <cygri> q+ to mention ReSpec 2 17:36:21 <PhilA> bh: I'm familiar with Respec so I'd rather use that 17:36:34 <Yigal> Yigal has joined #gld 17:37:00 <PhilA> bh: I'll need help from people to make sure that they remember to record who changes what and when 17:37:30 <bhyland> bhyland has joined #gld 17:37:32 <bhyland> ping 17:37:38 <boris> http://dev.w3.org/2009/respec2/ 17:38:01 <cygri> ack me 17:38:01 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to mention ReSpec 2 17:38:28 <PhilA> bh: There seemed to be a lot of activity last September in terms for formatting that we can look at 17:39:06 <cygri> q+ to ask what documents the group is going to publish 17:39:51 <PhilA> sandro: One month off is OK. But we can put changes on the front page of the wiki 17:39:54 <PhilA> ack cygri 17:39:58 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to ask what documents the group is going to publish 17:40:02 <bhyland> q? 17:40:17 <PhilA> cygri: Do we have something like a complete list of the documents that the WG is going to produce (Rec and non-Rec) 17:40:41 <DaveReynolds> +1 a clear list of docs and intended status would be helpful 17:40:55 <PhilA> bhyland: The community directory is published, BPs will be a Rec, 17:41:13 <BenediktKaempgen> +1 to list of documents that will be produced 17:41:26 <PhilA> sandro: The Wg should do what it thinks is best, there are no rules as such 17:41:58 <PhilA> bhyland: We should put things that logically go together in a single doc. For e.g. we might have a lot of stuff about URI consutruction that could be separate 17:42:18 <PhilA> bhyland: The Cookbook isn't a Rec - it could become part of the directory 17:43:09 <PhilA> George_: The milestones section of the charter says that the directory and cookbook are separate 17:43:23 <PhilA> sandro: I think we should remain open to splitting docs as we see fit 17:43:24 <mhausenblas> Michael: Regarding publishing the BP FPWD, I think boris and I already had a chat, no? Boris, can you share our proposal on the call, please? 17:43:44 <boris> q+ 17:43:50 <Mike_Pendleton> Mike_Pendleton has joined #gld 17:44:03 <DaveReynolds> q+ 17:44:12 <mhausenblas> Michael: Essentially, the idea was to manually transfer the content from the Wiki - we're three Editors, so workload-wise this should work 17:44:47 <Zakim> +sandro.a 17:44:50 <PhilA> cygri: I thought the Recommended vocabs were going to be in separate docs (DCAT and Data Cube) but I don't know about the otehr areas 17:44:50 <Zakim> -sandro 17:45:04 <DaveReynolds> q- 17:45:04 <bhyland> cygri: suggested re: recommended vocabs, have one doc for DCAT, another for DataCube 17:45:13 <mhausenblas> Michael: Just to make it clear - I'm against the script-based version from the Wiki as we have a rather messy structure there and I don't wanna play guinea pig. sorry sandro, no offence meant 17:45:34 <PhilA> sandro: If we're just going to endorse someone else's vocab we don't need a big doc for that 17:45:45 <PhilA> bhyland: How much of the data cube spec is already written? 17:46:17 <PhilA> cygri: We have a spec that is pretty much ready. We might want to add things and improve things but in principle there is an existing spec that covers what you woujld expect it to 17:46:35 <PhilA> ... we will need to write more if we decide that there are issues that need to be addressed? 17:47:12 <PhilA> bhyland: Is there any benefit for having this as a separate doc? 17:47:15 <DaveReynolds> +1 that's what I thought 17:47:29 <PhilA> cygri: Yes, that makes sense and I already have an action item to create it 17:47:37 <PhilA> ... with help from DaveReynolds et al 17:47:50 <BenediktKaempgen> +1 QB should be an own spec 17:48:00 <mhausenblas> +1 17:48:01 <boris> +1 separate spec for qb 17:48:15 <bhyland> q? 17:48:17 <PhilA> ack boris 17:48:58 <PhilA> boris: wrt the draft of the BP spec - we (Michael, Bern and I will create the doc, people only need to update the wiki) 17:49:03 <PhilA> bhyland: Agreed 17:49:08 <olyerickson> olyerickson has joined #GLD 17:49:12 <PhilA> Topic: Community Directory 17:49:44 <PhilA> Slides are at http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/images/c/c6/BHyland_W3C_GLD_WG_F2F2_Directory.pdf 17:50:32 <PhilA> bhyland: The idea is the the CD (Community Directory) is a place where people not necessarily familiar with LD can get some guidance 17:50:53 <PhilA> bhyland: The initial CD was put together with some loose requirements from the June f2f 17:53:03 <DanG> DanG has joined #gld 17:53:12 <PhilA> bhyland: Talks through her slides 17:53:59 <PhilA> bhyland: Haven't had a lot of feedback - need and would like more 17:54:14 <DaveReynolds> zakim, mute me 17:54:14 <Zakim> DaveReynolds should now be muted 17:54:18 <PhilA> bhyland: So where do we go? semanticweb.org? SWEO? 17:54:39 <PhilA> bhyland: Now that we have a working site, we can seek feedback, maybe open it up 17:55:10 <PhilA> q? 17:55:13 <bhyland> q? 17:55:14 <George_> q? 17:55:25 <Mike_Pendleton> q? 17:56:33 <PhilA> bhyland: I think the first thing is to make sure that people think it's a good idea 17:56:48 <olyerickson> RE UI, actually simple is good --- priority should be *useful* 17:57:28 <PhilA> bhyland: Biplav asked what a company like IBM should put in? What's the (relevant) address for IBM? 17:57:41 <George_> bhyland: addresses for global/multi-national concern is good topic for vocab rec tomorrow 17:57:48 <PhilA> cygri: DERI is listed in there. We did that because we were asked to do it 17:58:05 <PhilA> cygri: But I was thinking about why I should want to return to it to make sure our data is up to date? 17:58:16 <olyerickson> q+ 17:58:28 <George_> cygri: what's the incentive for data freshness on the CD? 17:58:31 <PhilA> cygri: If people come here to find info about expertise then obviously we'd want to be properly represented 17:58:56 <PhilA> cygri: We have an interest in being found if people are looking for LD expertise in Ireland 17:59:32 <DeirdreLee> we need a vocabulary to describe Linked Data domain :) 17:59:35 <PhilA> cygri: I'd be interested to know who else is working on the kind of thing we do 17:59:46 <George_> cygri: LD Communities of Interest/Practice query where? 18:00:42 <olyerickson> q? 18:01:20 <PhilA> bhyland: We used the W3C CSS and then made changes - we'd like to make the side panel batter 18:01:23 <sandro> q+ 18:01:24 <bhyland> q? 18:01:24 <olyerickson> q? 18:01:38 <olyerickson> zakim, unmute me. 18:01:38 <Zakim> olyerickson should no longer be muted 18:02:34 <PhilA> olyerickson: Don't be too hard on yourself. It looks good and it's hard to do faceted browsing 18:03:25 <PhilA> olyerickson: There seems to be some interlinking that is not linking up. If you choose a company, then look at the topics, then try and click on those, what you expect to see is a re-listing of relevant companies 18:04:29 <PhilA> bhyland: Agree it would be useful to have tool tips around different terms 18:04:37 <cygri> q+ 18:04:38 <PhilA> ... such as adding tool tips 18:04:41 <PhilA> ack olyerickson 18:04:47 <olyerickson> q- 18:05:35 <PhilA> bhyland: I agree with cygri that if you know people are finding you through the DIR then you'll be more careful about keeping it up to date 18:05:41 <PhilA> ]ack sandro 18:05:43 <bhyland> q? 18:05:45 <PhilA> ack sandro 18:06:26 <Mike_Pendleton> q+ 18:06:47 <PhilA> sandro: I'm super picky about sites as a user. But I do have to wonder about a bit of usability testing wouldn't be a bad thing. Unless it delivers a good experience on attempt 1 you might lose people 18:07:07 <PhilA> sandro: Are there way that other people could contribute improvements? Fork? 18:07:13 <cmusialek> cmusialek has joined #gld 18:07:24 <Zakim> -DaveReynolds 18:07:30 <PhilA> sandro: I'm not sure how Callimachus puts things together. Are there grad students that could do stuff with it? 18:08:01 <PhilA> bhyland: They're welcome to download the code and work on it. This is built on v.12 - we're now on v.16 which now includes import/export of apps 18:08:19 <PhilA> bhyland: updating the instance doesn't take a lot of work 18:08:40 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has left #gld 18:08:50 <PhilA> bhyland: There's not a large technical hurdle to overcome. Just a bit of CSS and JS 18:09:09 <PhilA> ... what I'd like is a list of features that we can fix 18:09:17 <PhilA> ... expecially if they're trivial! 18:09:39 <PhilA> s/expecially/especially/ 18:10:07 <PhilA> bhyland: We went to a lot of trouble to get it on a w3 domain for reasons of permanence etc. Got to be easy to use 18:10:15 <PhilA> sandro: Do you have an issues list? 18:10:24 <olyerickson> @sandro VERY good point!! 18:10:30 <cygri> +1 to sandro 18:10:38 <olyerickson> is there a github wiki? 18:10:43 <PhilA> bhyland: I'll ask James how he wants to queue up issues 18:11:14 <PhilA> bhyland: Things like needing a login is surprising 18:11:23 <sandro> q? 18:11:24 <olyerickson> What is the code host? github? Google Code? each have built-in issues trackers 18:11:25 <PhilA> .... but maybe that's a good thing to prevent the spam 18:11:45 <sandro> action: bhyland to set up an issues list for dir.w3.org 18:11:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-33 - Set up an issues list for dir.w3.org [on Bernadette Hyland - due 2012-02-01]. 18:12:10 <olyerickson> Problem solved: http://code.google.com/p/callimachus/issues/list 18:12:19 <PhilA> bhyland: Then we can see what is easy and what needs more work to implement, prioritise etc. 18:12:29 <George_> q? 18:12:32 <bhyland> q? 18:12:36 <olyerickson> Ah okay 18:12:48 <PhilA> sandro: There's a Callimachus issues list, what we need is a dir.w3.org issue list 18:12:58 <olyerickson> @sandro thanks for the clarification 18:13:05 <bhyland> q? 18:13:07 <PhilA> bhyland: Obviously James and I are best places to decide if it's a Callimachus or dir.w3.org issue 18:13:12 <PhilA> ack cygri 18:13:35 <PhilA> cygri: I wanted to give an armchair view of usability but not sure if that' the bets use of our time? 18:13:36 <sandro> now you can submit issues. :-) 18:14:25 <BartvanLeeuwen> q+ 18:14:29 <PhilA> bhyland: I have an bias towards action - I was expecting some philosophical issues to deal with 18:14:38 <PhilA> ack Mike_Pendleton 18:14:44 <cygri> on the philosophical side, i just want to know whether it's httpRange-14 compliant 18:15:05 <PhilA> I'm going to need to ask other people in the government space and see what they expect and compare it with what there is 18:15:47 <t_gheen> Mike_Pendleton: bugs in Firefox display 18:15:49 <PhilA> Mike_Pendleton: The left had side has a list of things that may or may not mean anything to people. ... Conversation then found a bug 18:16:32 <PhilA> Mike_Pendleton: continues to give thoughts to bhyland who takes notes... 18:17:38 <cygri> q+ 18:17:55 <t_gheen> bhyland: how about visualizations? 18:17:58 <bhyland> http://dir.w3.org/page/number-of-organizations-by-country.xhtml?view 18:18:04 <t_gheen> ... names queries? 18:18:11 <t_gheen> s/names/named 18:18:32 <sandro> Hmmm. When I'm looking at an "area of expertise", like http://dir.w3.org/scheme/organizational+categories/rdf+store?view ... I don't see who has that expertise. 18:18:33 <t_gheen> ... are there other ways to view the information that are more meaninful? 18:18:34 <olyerickson> Not sure what you're looking at... 18:18:42 <cygri> q? 18:19:19 <olyerickson> Okay, bhyland was referring to visualizations on http://dir.w3.org/page/number-of-organizations-by-country.xhtml?view 18:19:40 <t_gheen> bhyland: any suggestions for linking up with egov interest group? 18:19:50 <t_gheen> ... open knowledge foundation 18:20:42 <olyerickson> q? 18:21:20 <bhyland> q? 18:22:02 <PhilA> PhilA: That's best achieved by a personal conversation 18:22:20 <PhilA> cygri: We work with OKFN and can tell them about it. The DIR isn't quite there yet though 18:23:35 <boris> q? 18:23:41 <bhyland> q? 18:23:52 <PhilA> ack BartvanLeeuwen 18:23:59 <t_gheen> ACTION: bhyland convene a meeting on armchair usability for community directory 18:24:00 <trackbot> Created ACTION-34 - Convene a meeting on armchair usability for community directory [on Bernadette Hyland - due 2012-02-01]. 18:24:31 <PhilA> BartvanLeeuwen: Backing up a bit... if we think about being able to pull some data directly from the Web, perhaps through gr: data? 18:25:04 <George_> BartvanLeeuwen: GR for company products services (Deirdre - vocab for LD domain?) 18:25:26 <t_gheen> bhyland: how does GR pull/update company info? 18:25:38 <PhilA> bhyland: I think it's a really good suggestion. 18:25:52 <George_> ... and then pull that from where ever into the CD 18:25:56 <PhilA> Lots of red faces around the table looking at the large pile of uneaten dog food 18:26:04 <sandro> q+ 18:26:38 <PhilA> bhyland: We could offer guidance on what RDFa to include on your site, then we could accept a URL of a page to parse and then that could be added to the directory 18:26:39 <t_gheen> bhyland: if there was basic RDFa on someone's site, how can we automatically update their info in the directory? 18:26:51 <PhilA> bhyland: It's tiresome to have to enter that by hand in 2012 18:27:14 <PhilA> sandro: I think we'd want to support the system being able to import data from a given location 18:27:23 <PhilA> BartvanLeeuwen: and preferably auto-updating too 18:27:35 <George_> sandro: auto slurping high on list of to do's in general 18:27:36 <cygri> washington seems to have dropped off skype? 18:27:43 <olyerickson> q+ 18:27:43 <DeirdreLee> Core business vocabulary? 18:27:51 <t_gheen> bhyland: what is the state of the art for scraping a page, RDFa? 18:27:58 <danbri> danbri has joined #gld 18:28:01 <PhilA> bhyland: What's the state of the art for being able to scrape a site for RDFa, 18:28:14 <PhilA> sandro: It doesn't have to be RDFa, it can be any RDF format 18:28:15 <DeirdreLee> https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/asset/core_business/home 18:28:22 <PhilA> BartvanLeeuwen: I'm willing to take a look at it 18:29:04 <PhilA> bhyland: take our site - say we had a book that we'd published. And we marked up the page with data. How to do we say look at this and this but not that 18:29:05 <olyerickson> q? 18:29:09 <olyerickson> q? 18:29:16 <cygri> q+ to say this is not on the critical path for the community directory 18:29:36 <PhilA> BartvanLeeuwen: If you look at GR you can say what your service offerings are 18:30:28 <George_> action: BartvanLeeuwen to investigate GR ingest from CD provided page 18:30:29 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - BartvanLeeuwen 18:30:32 <olyerickson> q? 18:30:57 <PhilA> action: BartvanLeeuwen to investigate how Good Relations etc could assist with automatically filling up the directory 18:30:57 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - BartvanLeeuwen 18:31:05 <olyerickson> can we please not make this more complicated than necessary 18:31:10 <PhilA> action: Leeuwen to investigate how Good Relations etc could assist with automatically filling up the directory 18:31:11 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Leeuwen 18:31:18 <PhilA> action: van Leeuwen to investigate how Good Relations etc could assist with automatically filling up the directory 18:31:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-35 - Leeuwen to investigate how Good Relations etc could assist with automatically filling up the directory [on Bart van Leeuwen - due 2012-02-01]. 18:31:25 <PhilA> ack cygri 18:31:25 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to say this is not on the critical path for the community directory 18:31:27 <bhyland> q? 18:31:28 <George_> q? 18:32:04 <PhilA> cygri: I'm all for eating our own dog food. At the same time, to make the CD a success, the question of whetehr it can slup in RDFa is not necessarily the most important 18:32:15 <George_> but it does speak to the freshness and updating issue :) 18:32:20 <PhilA> cygri: I don't want to discourage people looking at it, but it's not priority number 1 18:32:31 <mhausenblas> mhausenblas has joined #gld 18:32:38 <PhilA> cygri: So this is a vendor directory for LD organisations etc, yes? 18:32:57 <PhilA> cygri: Are there similar examples of sites that do the same for other areas? 18:32:57 <bhyland> It is broader than a vendor directory. 18:33:17 <bhyland> Cygri: is there an analogous site to this one? 18:33:20 <PhilA> cygri: Can we find an example of something that achieves what we want to do in a differnt domain? 18:33:26 <DanG> DanG has joined #gld 18:33:34 <PhilA> bhyland: The library community likes directories 18:33:43 <PhilA> bhyland: It's not just about vendors 18:33:56 <George_> agree with Mike_Pendleton wrt being aligned with Procurement 18:33:57 <PhilA> bhyland: It's about finding expertise, whether commercial, academic or whatever 18:34:38 <t_gheen> bhyland: there are many examples of these kinds of directories - ex. travel sites 18:34:48 <boris> biomedical directories 18:35:32 <PhilA> ack olyerickson 18:35:44 <Mike_Pendleton> Mike_Pendleton has joined #gld 18:35:45 <PhilA> olyerickson: I'll reinforce what others have said about KISS 18:36:09 <PhilA> olyerickson: It's hard to get people to add their data, even harder to get them to recode their websites 18:36:22 <DeirdreLee> q+ 18:36:46 <PhilA> ... if we want to be able to slurp in pre-cooked RDF then great, but maybe that should be a separate file 18:37:03 <PhilA> olyerickson: an option for GR is having a separate location of the RDF info 18:37:14 <sandro> q- 18:37:40 <PhilA> olyerickson: If I add my company info into the CD then it would be nice if the CD made an RDF file available that I could then add to my site 18:37:49 <PhilA> bhyland: Love that suggestion 18:38:08 <PhilA> bhyland: It's a Foafomatic tool - great 18:38:26 <George_> me thinks that's what BartvanLeeuwen meant in the first place, + the idea that callimachus could/should also serve as a RDFa template for those that can/will publish that 18:38:35 <PhilA> bhyland: You get something back for your effort 18:38:41 <BartvanLeeuwen> George_, ack 18:38:45 <PhilA> ack DeirdreLee 18:38:46 <olyerickson> ;) 18:39:17 <PhilA> DeirdreLee: It seems the CD seems to be taking a centralised approach. We want people to put theire data out there and then third party tools can use it 18:39:29 <PhilA> DeirdreLee: And the CD is a third party tool in this context 18:39:46 <sandro> q+ to rebut that 18:39:59 <George_> otherwise we'll pull it from dbpedia :) 18:40:14 <sandro> q- 18:40:16 <PhilA> bhyland: Yep, think distributed, think linked data 18:40:28 <sandro> q+ 18:40:55 <sandro> q- 18:40:57 <PhilA> bhyland: summarises what she's taken down so far (and Sandro reminds her he's on the q) 18:41:19 <cmusialek> cmusialek has joined #gld 18:41:52 <t_gheen> Topic: Linked Data Cookbook 18:42:42 <boris> http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/Linked_Data_Cookbook 18:43:24 <PhilA> bhyland: It uses a linking gov data chapter I wrote from last November 18:43:36 <PhilA> ... we got permission to keep the copyright 18:43:45 <PhilA> ... some of it prob belongs in the best practices 18:44:01 <PhilA> ... useful if you've had a chance to review it of course 18:44:30 <PhilA> boris: The content looks the same as the BP working draft - is it not the same? 18:45:00 <PhilA> cygri: Refers to the charter... 18:45:14 <cygri> The group will produce a collection of advice on smaller, more specific issues, where known solutions exist to problems collected for the Community Directory. This document is to be published as a Working Group Note, or website, rather than a Recommendation. It may, instead, become part of the Community Directory site. 18:46:22 <BenediktKaempgen> +q 18:46:57 <PhilA> BenediktKaempgen: We have been talking about the BP as a static document and it shouldn't be too specific as it will go out of date. The cookbook is more of a live document/resource 18:47:15 <PhilA> BartvanLeeuwen: I see it as a more specific document and yes, a living one 18:47:24 <George_> ack BenediktKaempgen 18:47:38 <DeirdreLee> q+ 18:47:52 <PhilA> BenediktKaempgen: For example, a list of the current, most important vocabularies - that's a useful start for individuals 18:48:06 <George_> BenediktKaempgen: posits list of vocabs as example of 'smaller more specific' 18:48:07 <sandro> how about: when to use RDF/XML vs Turtle vs RDFa vs SPARQL ? 18:48:11 <PhilA> ... so the criteria go in the BP doc, ones that meeti the crierta go in the cookbook 18:48:16 <PhilA> ack DeirdreLee 18:48:28 <PhilA> DeirdreLee: What's the government element of the cookbook? 18:48:30 <sandro> q+ 18:48:32 <George_> DeirdreLee: what's the Gov angle? 18:48:52 <PhilA> DeirdreLee: It seems as if it could cover life sciences etc. ... 18:49:10 <PhilA> bhyland: There is a lot of overlap and may overlap the Linked Data Platform WG too 18:49:48 <PhilA> bh: I write the various entries with gov in mind even though things can be used elsewhere too 18:50:20 <PhilA> bh: 80%+ can apply to any LD project, yes - but people from gov will gravitate to it on w3.org 18:50:52 <George_> q? 18:51:20 <GofranShukair> Sorry ..I have to go ..bye everyone see you tomorrow 18:51:30 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-vocab-pub/ 18:51:46 <PhilA> ack sandro 18:52:14 <sandro> http://answers.semanticweb.com/ 18:52:25 <PhilA> sandro: I picture the cookbook as an FAQ, stak overflow type thing 18:52:58 <PhilA> sandro: There are 30-40 questions that gov people will ask when asked to consider implementing LD 18:53:27 <PhilA> bhyland: Mike_Pendleton gave me a bunch of questions when we began working with the EPA - yes, that makes sense 18:53:28 <cygri> +1 to sandro. that made sense to me. 18:53:42 <PhilA> s/stak/stack/ 18:54:06 <PhilA> bh: Thanks for the feedback - that helps me see what needs to be done 18:54:17 <George_> q? 18:54:22 <cygri> q+ 18:54:24 <olyerickson> +1 to stack overflow-like functionality (but that's not free anymore) 18:54:55 <PhilA> cygri: So how can we collect those questions? 18:54:57 <olyerickson> @bhyland I have to sign off now...apologies. Have a great day, everyone! 18:55:05 <Zakim> -olyerickson 18:55:09 <George_> ack cygri 18:55:11 <olyerickson> olyerickson has left #GLD 18:55:38 <t_gheen> ACTION: bhyland gather top 30-40 questions for the FAQ 18:55:38 <trackbot> Created ACTION-36 - Gather top 30-40 questions for the FAQ [on Bernadette Hyland - due 2012-02-01]. 18:55:39 <PhilA> bhyland: dare I suggest an action item to collect the questions 18:56:28 <cygri> mhausenblas, i'm not in charge of the agenda, but it says we stop at 8 18:56:54 <Zakim> +rreck 18:57:12 <GeraldSteeman> GeraldSteeman has joined #GLD 18:57:39 <sandro> list of stackoverflow clones. we could install an instance of one of these.... http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/2267/stack-overflow-clones 18:58:09 <cygri> sandro, why? answers.semanticweb.com is already there. don't fragment 18:58:30 <BartvanLeeuwen> cygri, +1 18:58:35 <PhilA> bhyland: Considers the day, whether we have achieved our targets 18:59:05 <PhilA> bhyland: reviews tomorrow's agenda 18:59:19 <sandro> cygri, not sure, just brainstorming. are there tags there we can use to help get GLD folks started in the right direction there? 18:59:48 <PhilA> bhyland: anyone not here tomorrow? t_gheen has to meet someone very senior in the West Wing 18:59:55 <cygri> sandro, not really. it's for asking questions and getting them answered, not really for reading old answers 18:59:57 <rreck> yes. i have posted the slides 19:00:15 <PhilA> bhyland: We'll talk about stability tomorrow 19:01:06 <PhilA> PhilA: Anne W might want to look at the outcome from the workshop on stability held last month http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/12/dnap-workshop/notes.html 19:01:16 <George_> cygri: more DCAT tomorrow 19:01:17 <PhilA> cygri: Would like to talk about DCAT 19:01:21 <George_> +1 cygri 19:01:27 <PhilA> +1 on DCAT as the hope is to resolve to go to FPWD 19:01:53 <boris> http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/F2F2#Agenda 19:02:00 <George_> q? 19:02:36 <George_> +1 more ADMS tomorrow morning too 19:02:52 <PhilA> Current static version of DCAT is at https://www.w3.org/2011/gld/group/WD-DCAT-20120106.html 19:03:42 <George_> agreed 19:03:51 <George_> with a mandate! 19:05:49 <DeirdreLee> Interoperability Solutions for European Public Administrations http://ec.europa.eu/isa/ 19:06:00 <bhyland> bhyland has joined #gld 19:06:15 <DeirdreLee> Join up https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/ 19:07:00 <PhilA> Thanks all round 19:07:06 <PhilA> Meeting adjourned 19:07:16 <Zakim> -sandro.a 19:07:21 <Zakim> -galway 19:07:28 <Zakim> -rreck 19:07:34 <SpyrosKotoulas> SpyrosKotoulas has left #gld 19:07:36 <Zakim> -Washington 19:07:39 <Zakim> -GeraldSteeman 19:08:16 <bhyland> ping 19:08:41 <bhyland> is someone in Galway publishing the minutes for today?? 19:08:58 <George_> RRSAgent, set logs world-visible 19:09:18 <George_> RRSAgent, generate minutes 19:09:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/25-gld-minutes.html George_ 19:10:08 <PhilA> Wiki is up to date, sandro # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. 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