Chatlog 2012-01-25

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<sandro> PRESENT: PhilA, mhausenblas, cygri, BenediktKaempgen, csarven, boris, fadi, dvilasuero, BartvanLeeuwen, chrism, tina, george, bhyland, yigal, mikep, annew, gillman, simonwall, gerald, sandro, davereynolds, reck, erickson, christophe_gueret, stasinos
<sandro> GUEST: Gofran Shukair
<sandro> GUEST: Deirdre Lee
<sandro> GUEST: Spyros Kotoulas
<sandro> chair: bhyland, george
11:51:33 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #gld
11:51:33 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/01/25-gld-irc
11:51:36 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #gld
11:52:15 <sandro> zakim, this will be gld1
11:52:15 <Zakim> ok, sandro; I see SW_e-Gov( GLD)6:30AM scheduled to start 22 minutes ago
11:53:02 <mhausenblas> mhausenblas has joined #gld
11:53:02 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: Government Linked Data (GLD) WG -- F2F2 -- Code GLD1 -- http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/F2F2
11:53:16 <mhausenblas> ok, I guess we're set and ready!
11:54:03 <Zakim> SW_e-Gov( GLD)6:30AM has now started
11:54:10 <Zakim> +??P0
11:54:18 <Zakim> +sandro
11:55:42 <GeraldSteeman> GeraldSteeman has joined #GLD
11:57:09 <Zakim> +GeraldSteeman
11:57:41 <fadi> fadi has joined #gld
11:58:38 <Zakim> + +3539149aaaa
11:58:48 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aaaa is me
11:58:48 <Zakim> +mhausenblas; got it
11:58:56 <cygri> zakim, aaaa is galway
11:58:56 <Zakim> sorry, cygri, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
11:58:57 <mhausenblas> Zakim, fadi is with me
11:58:58 <Zakim> +fadi; got it
11:59:13 <BenediktKaempgen> BenediktKaempgen has joined #gld
11:59:22 <mhausenblas> Zakim, I am really galway
11:59:22 <Zakim> I don't understand 'I am really galway', mhausenblas
11:59:25 <boris_> boris_ has joined #gld
11:59:26 <cygri> zakim, mhausenblas is really galway
11:59:26 <Zakim> +galway; got it
11:59:26 <dvilasuero> dvilasuero has joined #gld
11:59:36 <cygri> zakim, mhausenblas is with galway
11:59:36 <Zakim> +mhausenblas; got it
11:59:45 <cygri> zakim, i'm with galway
11:59:45 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
12:00:01 <cygri> zakim, who is on the phone
12:00:01 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', cygri
12:00:09 <Deirdre> Deirdre has joined #gld
12:00:10 <cygri> zakim, who is on the phone?
#12:00:21 <cygri> zakim who is on the phone?
12:00:29 <cygri> zakim, who is on the phone?
12:00:29 <Zakim> On the phone I see simonWall, sandro, GeraldSteeman, galway
12:00:30 <Zakim> galway has galway, mhausenblas, cygri
12:01:04 <cygri> zakim, BenediktKaempgen is with galway
12:01:04 <Zakim> +BenediktKaempgen; got it
12:01:07 <csarven> csarven has joined #gld
12:01:17 <cygri> zakim, csarven is with galway
12:01:17 <Zakim> +csarven; got it
12:01:21 <dvilasuero> zakim, dvilasuero is galway
12:01:21 <Zakim> sorry, dvilasuero, I do not recognize a party named 'dvilasuero'
12:01:24 <PhilA> PhilA has joined #gld
12:01:29 <boris_> zakim, boris is with galway
12:01:29 <Zakim> +boris; got it
12:01:30 <cygri> zakim, Deirdre is with galway
12:01:30 <Gofran> Gofran has joined #gld
12:01:30 <Zakim> +Deirdre; got it
12:01:38 <cygri> zakim, fadi is with galway
12:01:38 <Zakim> +fadi; got it
12:01:44 <cygri> zakim, Gofran is with galway
12:01:44 <Zakim> +Gofran; got it
12:01:49 <cygri> zakim, PhilA is with galway
12:01:49 <Zakim> +PhilA; got it
12:02:15 <BartvanLeeuwen> BartvanLeeuwen has joined #gld
12:02:17 <cygri> zakim, dvilasuero is with galway
12:02:17 <Zakim> +dvilasuero; got it
12:02:25 <cygri> zakim BartvanLeeuwen is with Galway
12:02:33 <cygri> zakim, BartvanLeeuwen is with Galway
12:02:33 <Zakim> +BartvanLeeuwen; got it
12:02:39 <cygri> zakim, who is on the phone?
12:02:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see simonWall (muted), sandro, GeraldSteeman, galway
12:02:40 <Zakim> galway has galway, mhausenblas, cygri, BenediktKaempgen, csarven, boris, Deirdre, fadi, Gofran, PhilA, dvilasuero, BartvanLeeuwen
12:03:09 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
12:03:09 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2012/01/25-gld-irc#T12-03-09
12:03:44 <sandro> RRSAgent, make logs public
12:04:07 <sandro> I'm thinking skype is the best bet.
12:04:15 <sandro> (with sound turned off)
12:06:32 <DeirdreLee> DeirdreLee has joined #gld
12:06:42 <Zakim> + +1.802.371.aabb
12:07:23 <Zakim> - +1.802.371.aabb
12:09:55 <mhausenblas> the only thing we now need (for both Zakim and skype) is ....
12:09:59 <mhausenblas> Washington! :)
12:10:07 <Zakim> + +1.802.371.aacc
12:10:27 <sandro> ( who is dvilasuero ? )
12:10:36 <Zakim> + +1.202.691.aadd
12:10:51 <sandro> zakim, aadd is Washington
12:10:51 <Zakim> +Washington; got it
12:14:03 <tighten> tighten has joined #gld
12:14:09 <Zakim> - +1.802.371.aacc
12:14:19 <mhausenblas> Zakim, mute me
12:14:22 <Zakim> sorry, mhausenblas, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
12:14:29 <mhausenblas> Zakim, mute galway
12:14:29 <Zakim> galway should now be muted
12:15:17 <mhausenblas> Zakim, unmute galway
12:15:17 <Zakim> galway should no longer be muted
12:15:39 <cygri> sandro, dvialasuero is daniel vila from madrid
12:16:24 <cygri> it's richard.cyganiak
12:19:28 <mhausenblas> trackbot, start telecon
12:19:31 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
12:19:33 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GLD
12:19:33 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see SW_e-Gov( GLD)6:30AM already started
12:19:34 <trackbot> Meeting: Government Linked Data Working Group Teleconference
12:19:34 <trackbot> Date: 25 January 2012
12:19:53 <mhausenblas> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/F2F2#Wednesday.2C_25-Jan-2012
12:20:04 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
12:20:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see simonWall (muted), sandro, GeraldSteeman, galway, Washington
12:20:06 <Zakim> galway has galway, mhausenblas, cygri, BenediktKaempgen, csarven, boris, Deirdre, fadi, Gofran, PhilA, dvilasuero, BartvanLeeuwen
12:20:09 <Zakim> On IRC I see tighten, DeirdreLee, BartvanLeeuwen, PhilA, csarven, dvilasuero, boris, BenediktKaempgen, fadi, GeraldSteeman, mhausenblas, Zakim, RRSAgent, simonWall, cygri, rreck,
12:20:11 <Zakim> ... danbri, trackbot, sandro
12:20:20 <GofranS> GofranS has joined #gld
12:20:51 <mhausenblas> scribenick: mhausenblas
12:22:46 <bhyland> bhyland has joined #gld
12:22:48 <t_gheen> t_gheen has joined #gld
12:22:52 <bhyland> ping
12:22:59 <sandro> pong bhyland 
12:24:09 <George> George has joined #gld
12:24:58 <mhausenblas> Topic: Introductions
12:25:18 <mhausenblas> PhilA: I'm in Galway, W3C staff
12:25:38 <Zakim> + +1.802.371.aaee
12:26:05 <mhausenblas> PhilA: I've been working on vocabularies, ADMS, DCAT, organisation ontology
12:26:49 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
12:26:49 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2012/01/25-gld-irc#T12-26-49
12:26:50 <mhausenblas> dvilasuero: In Galway, Master student with Boris (UPM) from Spain
12:27:21 <mhausenblas> fadi: In Galway, finished my MSc on Publishing Linked Gov Data, Google Refine, DCAT
12:28:11 <mhausenblas> boris: In Galway, UPM, we do Linked Government Data in Spain, will help facility vocab
12:28:42 <PhilA> mhausenblas: I'm co-hosting here. Head Linked Data section here at DERI
12:29:36 <mhausenblas> cygri: In Galway, LiDRC at DERI as well, I'm focusing on vocabs (DCAT, DataCube) and also other WG (RDF, RDB2RDF)
12:30:11 <mhausenblas> ... I'd like to learn about requirement for DataCube vocab, also DCAT
12:30:33 <mhausenblas> BartvanLeeuwen: In Galway - I'm a Semantic Fire Fighter from A'dam
12:30:58 <mhausenblas> ... doing Linked Open Data, looking for advise for best practices and share again
12:31:25 <PhilA> Note to self, need to talk to fadi about Dan Smith's work on Refine Extensions http://wiki.linkedgov.org/index.php/Extension
12:31:28 <mhausenblas> csarven: In Galway, MSc in LiDRC, with Michael and Richard, working on data-gov.ie, tooling around this
12:31:45 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #gld
12:32:14 <mhausenblas> GofranS: In Galway, MSc students in eGov unit at DERI, focusing on metadata i18y, ADMS
12:32:26 <Zakim> -GeraldSteeman
12:33:04 <mhausenblas> DeirdreLee: In Galway, heading the eGov unit in DERI, working with Vassilios of the EC
12:33:18 <Zakim> +GeraldSteeman
12:33:28 <mhausenblas> ... we're doing Open Data, policies, etc.
12:33:41 <mhausenblas> ... for example, DCAT is of interest
12:34:08 <Spyros> Spyros has joined #gld
12:34:16 <cygri> zakim, spyros is with galway
12:34:16 <Zakim> +spyros; got it
12:35:05 <mhausenblas> BenediktKaempgen: In Galway, from FZI in Karlsruhe, Germany
12:35:32 <mhausenblas> ...  into business intelligence, interested to provide feedback for DataCube and other related efforts
12:35:44 <mhausenblas> ... such as SKOS extension for hieratchy
12:35:53 <mhausenblas> s/hieratchy/hierarchy 
12:36:04 <mhausenblas> ... as well as versioning input
12:36:05 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
12:36:17 <DaveReynolds> zakim, IPcaller is me
12:36:17 <Zakim> +DaveReynolds; got it
12:36:24 <mhausenblas> ... we've published Eurostat and XBRL data 
12:37:01 <mhausenblas> Spyros: In Galway, IBM SCTC in Dublin, we are into Linked Open Data publishing (dublinked.ie)
12:37:22 <mhausenblas> ... we do data management for Smart Cities using Linked Data
12:38:00 <sandro> first/last name spelling?
12:38:28 <sandro> I think I have everyone by Spyros on http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/meeting/2012-01-25
12:38:33 <sandro> s/by/but/
12:38:35 <SpyrosKotoulas> SpyrosKotoulas has joined #gld
12:38:38 <Zakim> +rreck
12:38:39 <sandro> got it.
12:38:44 <Zakim> -rreck
12:39:09 <rreck> sheesh, it took 4 tries and then dropped
12:39:57 <cmusialek> cmusialek has joined #gld
12:40:01 <DaveReynolds> zakim,  mute me
12:40:03 <Zakim> DaveReynolds should now be muted
12:40:06 <GofranShukair> GofranShukair has joined #gld
12:40:21 <cygri> cmusialek: Chris Musialek, working on data.gov
12:40:23 <George> cmusialek: GSA Data.gov lead, working on vocab.data.gov and other related GLD for Data.gov
12:40:36 <George> t_gheen: One World Law Library
12:40:53 <Zakim> +rreck
12:41:07 <rreck> whew, i called in 9 times
12:41:35 <bhyland> ping
12:41:40 <mhausenblas> pong
12:41:48 <George> t_gheen: Library of Congress
12:42:20 <danbri> danbri has joined #gld
12:42:27 <bhyland> Introducing George Thomas from US HEaltha & Human Services
12:43:19 <George> bhyland: 3RoundStones, GLD co-chair, US Gov LD initiatives (EPA), strong open source product orientation, more on Web Arch, Data Mgmt
12:43:37 <George> ... better tooling for Web2.0 app dev's for using RDF stack tech
12:43:38 <George> ...
12:43:44 <danbri> danbri has joined #gld
12:44:11 <George> objectives for F2F2 - focus on enabling aspects for GLD publishers, how to roll out LD projects
12:45:13 <George> ... value add to augment tech chops with mgmt understanding
12:45:16 <cygri> me sandro, it's Gofran Shukair and Benedikt Kämpgen
12:46:03 <George> Yigal (not in IRC) - working on Gov Grant vocab - 
12:47:20 <George> ... been working with Gov Data for a long time, worked with Dan Gillman (BLS)
12:48:03 <George> Mike Pendleton (not on IRC) - EPA - doing LD projects, new approaches to data warehousing and publishing using LD
12:48:20 <George> ... interest and contribution in Procurement 
12:48:59 <cgueret_work> cgueret_work has joined #gld
12:49:02 <George> Anne Washington (not on IRC) from George Mason University, Professor Public Policy, bkgrnd CS and IS
12:49:21 <George> ... interest and bckgrnd in Dig Archives, preservation incl metadata
12:49:21 <sandro> Okay, http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/meeting/2012-01-25 has everyone correctly listed (I think).
12:49:40 <George> ... need for external 'non-branded' info in determining scope and direction of GLD projects
12:49:52 <George> ... part of the W3C eGov IG
12:49:52 <mhausenblas> q+
12:50:59 <Zakim> + +1.518.276.aaff
12:51:02 <Zakim> - +1.802.371.aaee
12:51:25 <Zakim> +??P4
12:51:35 <bhyland> q?
12:51:46 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/meeting/2012-01-25
12:51:49 <mhausenblas> q-
12:51:52 <Yigal> Yigal has joined #gld
12:52:20 <olyerickson> olyerickson has joined #GLD
12:52:29 <George> Dan Gillman (not yet on IRC) 
12:52:37 <George> BLS, DC F2F2 host
12:52:45 <rreck> where is the video ?
12:52:49 <olyerickson> @bhyland I have been on in car, just arrived at TWCRPI
12:53:01 <olyerickson> zakim, I am aaff
12:53:01 <Zakim> +olyerickson; got it
12:53:06 <George> ... involved with metadata standards and requirements for access to statistical data (for 'quite some time' :)
12:53:37 <George> ... got involved with GLD through chair role of Open Gov Vocab WG (part of Fed CIO Council Data Arch Subcmt)
12:53:59 <George> ... interest in synergy and application of W3C/GLD to BLS data
12:54:15 <bhyland> w?
12:54:18 <mhausenblas> q?
12:54:19 <olyerickson> q+
12:54:20 <bhyland> q/
12:54:26 <olyerickson> q?
12:54:47 <George> olyerickson: Dir of Web Science Ops at TWC RPI
12:55:03 <mhausenblas> ack olyerickson 
12:55:11 <George> ... project lead for logd.twc.rpi.edu - int gov cat search demo, govpedia.org project, others
12:56:28 <PhilA> regrets+ Hadley Beeman
12:56:40 <George> ... interest in firming up international BP guidance for GLD, co-leading URI construction session later today, also vocab rec's esp DCAT, (other good collab mojo)
12:57:48 <George> sandro: W3C primary staff contact with PhilA, key interest is making SemWeb work, GLD all ++, QB??, more :)
12:58:59 <George> GeraldSteeman: NASA S&T Info Prg Office, deliverable reviewer from lay-person persp, general interest in GLD
12:59:00 <mhausenblas> q+ to update on Gishlain status
12:59:36 <cygri> s/Gishlain/Ghislain/
12:59:44 <George> ... bhyland adds contibutions from Gerald incl outreach at high levels
12:59:55 <DaveReynolds> zakim, unmute me
12:59:55 <Zakim> DaveReynolds should no longer be muted
13:01:27 <George> DaveReynolds: SW/LD long timer, CTO Epimorphics, UK Pub Sector - data.gov.uk (variety of offices/agencies), vocab work - Org Ont (UK Organogram with cygri and JT), QB, LDA co-developer (great stuff!), variety of edu/env publishing
13:01:37 <mhausenblas> ... Linked Data API see http://code.google.com/p/linked-data-api/
13:01:46 <George> ... interests - mostly vocab with cygri etal 
13:01:52 <t_gheen_> t_gheen_ has joined #gld
13:01:54 <mhausenblas> q?
13:02:00 <DaveReynolds> zakim, mute me
13:02:00 <Zakim> DaveReynolds should now be muted
13:02:19 <cygri> simonWall?
13:02:24 <PhilA> Picking up on DaveReynolds comments about the org ontology being used for organograms - here's an example http://data.gov.uk/organogram/department-for-business-innovation-and-skills
13:02:27 <sandro> zakim, unmute simonWall 
13:02:27 <Zakim> simonWall should no longer be muted
13:03:29 <George> simonWall: morning! Dir of Data Mgmt Australian Bu of Stats - working on standardizing statistical data/metadata, statistics/statistics/statistics
13:03:32 <sandro> simonWall: I lead the Data Management Section at the Australian Bureau of Statistics (http://abs.gov.au).    (in Canberra)
13:04:17 <George> ... unlike (sandro ;), most interested in QB vocab, role as influencer of international stat community, interest in LD, and W3 membership
13:04:48 <George> ... is alive and well :)
13:05:10 <t_gheen> t_gheen has joined #gld
13:07:24 <George> rreck: consultant in Wash DC, masters in comp linguistics, textual data & RDF thesis, published, working in law enforcement, working with vocabs, 3rd W3C (GRDDL, other?) group
13:07:55 <George> ... review props that influence stability of GLD, collab with AnneW
13:08:27 <cgueret_work> I'm here but you don't hear me
13:08:46 <cgueret_work> it's christophe gueret
13:08:49 <cygri> christophe gueret
13:08:51 <cgueret_work> from the VU
13:08:52 <cgueret_work> yep
13:08:56 <cgueret_work> should be
13:09:10 <PhilA> zakim, ??P4 is cgueret_work
13:09:10 <Zakim> +cgueret_work; got it
13:09:19 <cgueret_work> http://www.few.vu.nl/~cgueret
13:09:22 <cgueret_work> :/
13:09:25 <cgueret_work> that's me :)
13:09:41 <PhilA> zakim, cgueret_work is really Christophe Gueret
13:09:41 <Zakim> I don't understand you, PhilA
13:09:41 <cgueret_work> thx :)
13:10:02 <PhilA> zakim, cgueret_work is  ChristopheGueret
13:10:02 <Zakim> +ChristopheGueret; got it
13:10:32 <bhyland> Please look at http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/F2F2
13:11:27 <bhyland> Topic: DataCube vocab discussion update
13:11:40 <cygri> http://publishing-statistical-data.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/specs/src/main/html/cube.html
13:11:42 <sandro> cygri: we have a draft spec
13:12:00 <BenediktKaempgen> Wiki page: http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/Statistical_Cube_Data
13:12:03 <sandro> cygri: started in 2010, that's the current status : http://publishing-statistical-data.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/specs/src/main/html/cube.html
13:12:29 <mhausenblas> cygri: recently not that much activity re consumption
13:12:46 <mhausenblas> ... working on a generic client for any kind of DataCube data
13:13:12 <mhausenblas> ... we have quite some issues in the queue raised by people that have been using DataCube
13:13:29 <mhausenblas> ... suggestions for improvements and extensions (incl. from BenediktKaempgen)
13:13:34 <mhausenblas> cygri: next steps are
13:13:57 <mhausenblas> ... transferring the issues to GLD tracker
13:13:58 <cygri> http://code.google.com/p/publishing-statistical-data/issues/list
13:14:11 <mhausenblas> cygri: as well as discuss extensions in GLD
13:14:44 <DaveReynolds> zakim, unmute me
13:14:44 <Zakim> DaveReynolds should no longer be muted
13:14:48 <mhausenblas> q?
13:14:50 <mhausenblas> ack me
13:14:50 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to update on Gishlain status
13:15:05 <Mike_Pendleton> Mike_Pendleton has joined #gld
13:15:06 <mhausenblas> q+ to still update on G.'s status ;)
13:15:32 <mhausenblas> cygri: additionally we want to publish the current spec as a FPWD in the GLD
13:15:45 <mhausenblas> .. I do have an action on it anyways
13:16:46 <mhausenblas> cygri: in order to improve DataCube we should take into consideration all the valuable feedback
13:17:00 <DaveReynolds> q+ to agree with Richard :)
13:17:07 <PhilA> q+
13:17:13 <mhausenblas> ... need to find a balance between quickly getting out a FPWD on it vs. incorporating the feedback
13:17:14 <mhausenblas> q?
13:17:27 <BenediktKaempgen> +q
13:17:36 <simonWall> +q
13:17:50 <George_> George_ has joined #gld
13:19:02 <PhilA> ack mich
13:19:06 <mhausenblas> ack me
13:19:06 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to still update on G.'s status ;)
13:19:11 <PhilA> ack mhausenblas
13:19:29 <PhilA> ack DaveReynolds
13:19:29 <Zakim> DaveReynolds, you wanted to agree with Richard :)
13:19:33 <mhausenblas> Michael: Seems Gihslain will join G'way later today
13:19:35 <DaveReynolds> ack me
13:19:52 <mhausenblas> DaveReynolds: Agree with what cygri  said
13:20:08 <mhausenblas> ... need a canonical issues list and a FPWD of DataCube spec
13:20:35 <mhausenblas> ... need to remove ambiguities in the spec
13:20:48 <mhausenblas> ... folding in the experience from practice 
13:20:49 <cygri> q+ to talk about use cases
13:21:19 <mhausenblas> DaveReynolds: DataCube has been used by a number of groups now, already
13:21:32 <mhausenblas> ... some co-ordination is needed
13:21:54 <mhausenblas> ... esp. re aggregation there has been quite some development in the SDMX world
13:22:01 <mhausenblas> q?
13:22:18 <cygri> DaveReynolds: coordination with standards from the Observations&Measurements area
13:23:38 <PhilA> q?
13:24:00 <mhausenblas> bhyland: Are people happy enough to move to the W3C space?
13:24:40 <mhausenblas> cygri: I think GLD is the appropriate space for this, yes
13:25:07 <mhausenblas> ... so far the work has happened in an informal space (cf. Google code repo)
13:26:15 <t_gheen> bhyland: what do we need to do? are the documents in good shape? How do we move forward and raise awareness?
13:26:23 <DruidSmith> DruidSmith has joined #gld
13:26:24 <PhilA> ack me
13:26:56 <mhausenblas> PhilA: From a process point of view we need to create a product for DataCube in the GLD tracker
13:27:16 <mhausenblas> ... and also for future products (DCAT, etc.) as currently there is only one product
13:27:35 <mhausenblas> cygri: Positiv
13:27:51 <mhausenblas> ACTION: PhilA to add products on issue tracker
13:27:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-29 - Add products on issue tracker [on Phil Archer - due 2012-02-01].
13:27:51 <DanG> DanG has joined #gld
13:28:21 <cygri> ACTION: cygri to produce editor's draft of Data Cube spec
13:28:22 <trackbot> Created ACTION-30 - Produce editor's draft of Data Cube spec [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2012-02-01].
13:28:32 <PhilA> q?
13:29:21 <mhausenblas> Michael: I assume FPWD of DataCube will be available together with the other FPWD on BP, etc.?
13:29:32 <mhausenblas> ... which would mean: soon
13:29:33 <mhausenblas> q?
13:29:43 <DaveReynolds> Agree with cygri that once have first working draft is a good time to see feedback.
13:29:47 <PhilA> ack BenediktKaempgen
13:29:52 <DaveReynolds> s/see/seek/
13:30:38 <mhausenblas> BenediktKaempgen: Question re issues
13:30:52 <mhausenblas> ... how will they be grouped
13:31:45 <mhausenblas> BenediktKaempgen: Also, questions regarding consumption side
13:32:34 <DaveReynolds> We do see groups consuming live Data Cube data, including iPhone apps. So there is some active use to learn from.
13:32:50 <mhausenblas> cygri: My take on this is that the scope is backed up by the charter
13:33:15 <mhausenblas> ... so we need to be careful regarding how far we go, can't stray too far from this
13:33:36 <mhausenblas> ... but it's important that we're compatible with other related works such as DDI
13:34:08 <mhausenblas> ... agree with co-ordination with others, yes
13:34:29 <DaveReynolds> Agree with Richard, keep scope narrow as currently defined, but do a good job of co-ordination.
13:34:30 <mhausenblas> cygri: regarding consumption tools - we're producing a vocab, not a processor
13:34:31 <sandro> the charter says: "Statistical "Cube" Data. The group will produce a vocabulary, compatible with SDMX, for expressing some kinds of statistical data. This need not be as expressive as all of SDMX, but may provide a subset as in the RDF Data Cube vocabulary. It may also include ways to annotate data to indicate its assumptions and comparability."
13:34:49 <sandro> precended by: "The group will also produce documentation, examples, and, optionally, test cases and OWL ontologies for these vocabularies."
13:34:59 <mhausenblas> cygri: though, feedback from DataCube consumers would be beneficial 
13:35:07 <bhyland> bhyland has joined #gld
13:35:12 <Zakim> -rreck
13:35:16 <bhyland> q?
13:35:20 <bhyland> ack cygri
13:35:20 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to talk about use cases
13:35:32 <sandro> on http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/charter
13:35:38 <sandro> mhausenblas, it's optional.
13:36:11 <bhyland>  Question: Is this correct wiki page for updating the WG on progress, http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/Statistical_Cube_Data
13:36:13 <DaveReynolds> mhausenblas: it currently is OWL (for values of "OWL" that are basically RDFS :))
13:36:19 <PhilA> ack simonWall
13:36:20 <bhyland> q?
13:36:44 <mhausenblas> simonWall: we're very active in the SDMX and DataCube space
13:37:29 <bhyland> q?
13:37:31 <Zakim> +rreck
13:37:41 <DaveReynolds> q+ possibly use real data as an example?
13:37:55 <mhausenblas> cygri: Would like to raise one more issue - does it make sense to also document use cases?
13:37:57 <DaveReynolds> q+, real examples?
13:38:02 <mhausenblas> Michael: +1 to use cases
13:38:10 <bhyland> cygri: Does it make sense to document use cases for vocabularies?  
13:38:15 <PhilA> use cases are always good...
13:38:25 <mhausenblas> Michael: Yes, we're backed up by charter (cf. 'examples')
13:38:33 <bhyland> cygri: I think it is a good reality check to resolve design criteria issues.  Helps with clarity
13:38:45 <PhilA> Although UCS are probably best recorded in a separate document
13:39:13 <mhausenblas> cygri: Matter of resources in the working group
13:39:22 <bhyland> cygri: Do we have the resources in the group to document use cases.
13:39:25 <bhyland> q+
13:39:34 <BenediktKaempgen> +1 to use cases
13:39:42 <simonWall> +1 for use cases
13:39:54 <mhausenblas> q?
13:40:02 <PhilA> q- real
13:40:11 <cgueret_work> q- examples?
13:40:17 <dvilasuero> +1 for use cases
13:40:21 <t_gheen> bhyland: we are writing docs for real working people, so mapping to real world is important
13:40:24 <PhilA> ack bhyland
13:40:38 <cgueret_work> +1 to bhyland
13:40:48 <DaveReynolds> q?
13:40:51 <t_gheen> bhland: where is the wiki page to update progress for this?
13:41:04 <BenediktKaempgen> eg., http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/Statistical_Cube_Data
13:41:05 <DaveReynolds> q+ to talk about examples
13:41:05 <t_gheen> s/bhland/bhyland
13:41:11 <bhyland> Is this correct wiki page for updating the WG on progress, http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/Statistical_Cube_Data
13:41:33 <mhausenblas> cygri: AFAIK there is no single page that captures the current status
13:41:42 <mhausenblas> ... not really updated, also
13:41:52 <BenediktKaempgen> I updated it recently a bit.
13:42:11 <t_gheen> bhyland: recommend creating a high level page to organize the information
13:42:18 <mhausenblas> q?
13:42:36 <t_gheen> ... can people devote time to this effort over the next few months?
13:42:37 <DaveReynolds> ack me
13:42:37 <Zakim> DaveReynolds, you wanted to talk about examples
13:43:05 <mhausenblas> DaveReynolds: Yes, I can commit some time in the next 5 month, rather at the end
13:43:20 <mhausenblas> DaveReynolds: re UC, there are different needs 
13:43:28 <mhausenblas> ... real data samples
13:43:41 <George> +1 DaveReynolds 
13:43:45 <mhausenblas> +1 as well
13:44:13 <simonWall> +1 too
13:44:19 <rreck> oh too bad we didnt do it in google+ so others could have joined
13:44:54 <mhausenblas> DaveReynolds: UC in the sense cygri was talking about vs. real world samples
13:44:56 <sandro> rreck, maybe during a break we can experiment with other vid tech.
13:45:09 <mhausenblas> Michael: both would be good!
13:45:22 <sandro> rreck, also, I gather this is a commercial skype account that can do multi-way.
13:45:38 <rreck> oh?
13:45:44 <mhausenblas> DaveReynolds: also valuable to evangelise to document the usage
13:45:58 <mhausenblas> ... but not in the spec but a separate doc
13:45:59 <mhausenblas> q+
13:46:02 <mhausenblas> q?
13:46:10 <George> DaveReynolds: additional note on how case-study/examples realize use cases
13:46:34 <mhausenblas> Michael: Agree with DaveReynolds to have a separate non-REC-Track doc on UC
13:46:36 <mhausenblas> 1-
13:46:38 <mhausenblas> q-
13:46:44 <PhilA> Sounds to me as if bhyland is talking about usage guidelines?
13:46:55 <sandro> or tutorials?   not sure.
13:47:26 <t_gheen> bhyland: who can work on this?
13:47:47 <bhyland> Committment for DataCube/SDMX work offered by DaveReynolds, Richard, others? 
13:47:47 <simonWall> +q
13:47:59 <bhyland> Add SimonWall to the list.
13:47:59 <mhausenblas> simonWall: count me in re UC
13:48:00 <PhilA> So the people working on the qb data are DaveReynolds, cygri, simonWall
13:48:11 <BenediktKaempgen> You can count me in also.
13:48:15 <t_gheen> bhyland: simonWall, DaveReynolds, cygri
13:48:32 <mhausenblas> q+
13:48:36 <mhausenblas> ack simonWall 
13:49:09 <DaveReynolds> zakim, mute me
13:49:09 <Zakim> DaveReynolds should now be muted
13:49:19 <mhausenblas> Topic: Vocabulary Selection discussion
13:49:41 <olyerickson> is there a Skype ccall that one could be included in for video?
13:49:54 <Yigal> Yigal has joined #Gld
13:49:57 <BenediktKaempgen> PhilA, can you add me, too?
13:50:04 <mhausenblas> boris: Please look at the slides at http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/images/6/65/VocabularySelection.pdf
13:50:07 <olyerickson> ...or is it only DC/Galway>?
13:50:52 <PhilA> So the people working on the qb data are DaveReynolds, cygri, simonWall, mhausenblas, BenediktKaempgen
13:52:38 <boris> http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/images/6/65/VocabularySelection.pdf
13:53:43 <cygri> boris: starting presentation on vocabulary selection
13:54:12 <cygri> ... charter says we need to provide guidelines to governments
13:54:44 <cygri> ... RDF requires specific domain terms in order to provide a certain domain
13:55:32 <cygri> ... modelling is important phase in data lifecycle
13:55:33 <bhyland> ping
13:55:57 <mhausenblas> pong
13:55:58 <cygri> ... (showing different data lifecycle models, they all have a modelling phase)
13:56:42 <cygri> ... big picture: 1. search for existing vocabularies in various search engines/repositories
13:56:53 <mhausenblas> q+ to note re suitability
13:57:04 <cygri> ... 2. if suitable is found, re-use it
13:57:16 <cygri> ... 3. otherwise, search for suitable thesauri etc
13:57:39 <cygri> ... 4. if those exist, build a vocabulary by transforming these resources into RDFS
13:58:03 <cygri> ... 5. otherwise, build from scratch. this happens if the domain is very new or complex. but doesn't happen so often
13:58:15 <bhyland> Encourage interactivity IMO
13:58:29 <bhyland> lol, co-chairs differ ;-)
13:58:36 <George> :) 
13:59:13 <cygri> boris: there are multiple repositories for searching vocabularies, but no one definitive
13:59:18 <bhyland> No one central place to find a vocab is a feature, not a bug :-)
13:59:39 <cygri> ... (summary table of available repositories)
13:59:52 <mhausenblas> Michael: ontologi.es is in fact Melvin C ;)
14:00:41 <mhausenblas> s/Melvin C/Toby Inkster
14:01:11 <cygri> boris: there are no guidelines to help developers to decide which engine/repo to use
14:01:43 <olyerickson> Note that DataFAQs <https://github.com/timrdf/DataFAQs/wiki> will soon provide a statistical vocabulary ranking service based on use in the LOD cloud. I've asked them for a statement as to how this will work. Note also that they will provide a commmunity vocab ranking service soon as well
14:01:47 <mhausenblas> Michael: re relevant vocabs - ORG seems to be missing?
14:02:14 <cygri> boris: (summary list of gov-relevant vocabs)
14:02:15 <bhyland> @Michael, noted.  I'll add.
14:02:23 <bhyland> This is a partial list
14:02:35 <cygri> ... probably need to include a few more
14:03:00 <mhausenblas> Michael: re vocabulary prefixes - my advise is simple - use prefix.cc
14:03:07 <cygri> ... there is a list of popular prefixes from the RDFa group
14:03:11 <DaveReynolds> Vocabulary list: would like to see org on there :)
14:03:24 <GofranShukair> also DOAP is missing
14:03:44 <Mike_Pendleton> Mike_Pendleton has joined #gld
14:03:47 <DaveReynolds> DOAP is on the previous list
14:04:19 <GofranShukair> yeah sorry now i see it :(
14:04:42 <DaveReynolds> But wasn't on the prefix list I don't think.
14:04:58 <cygri> boris: (demo of LOV - http://labs.mondeca.com/dataset/lov/suggest/ )
14:05:01 <DaveReynolds> Not sure about BIBO as the one and only vocab in that area to single out, but not my field.
14:06:05 <cygri> boris: criteria for selecting a particular vocab/ontology
14:06:11 <dvilasuero> definately, if we have BIBO there we should have some other important library vocabs
14:06:21 <mhausenblas> q?
14:06:33 <George> LOV search - nice
14:06:36 <cygri> ... usage, maintenance, coverage, etc etc
14:06:58 <cygri> ... tools for building vocabularies: neologism, protege, ...
14:07:31 <bhyland> q?
14:07:37 <cygri> (LOV people are: Bertrand Vatant and Pierre-Yves Vandenbussche)
14:07:49 <BenediktKaempgen> +q
14:07:53 <mhausenblas> ack me
14:07:53 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to note re suitability
14:07:58 <George> ack mhausenblas 
14:08:05 <cygri> q+
14:08:17 <cygri> mhausenblas: what is “suitable”? how do you define this?
14:08:19 <George> mhausenblas: what is 'suitable'?
14:08:46 <cygri> ... give concrete advice how to figure out which competing vocabulary to use
14:08:56 <cygri> ... and advice when it makes sense to build your own
14:09:09 <George> ime suitability is often a vocab combo - ie org + vcard
14:09:16 <cygri> ... also important for suitability: does my data sparql well if expressed in this vocab?
14:09:20 <PhilA> q+ to agree with mhausenblas and add a bit more
14:09:37 <cygri> ... existence of multiple repos/engines not a problem. they do different things
14:09:45 <cygri> ... some crawl, some are curated
14:09:56 <olyerickson> I've asked DataFAQs people to compare/contrast their vocab ranking capability with LOV vocab ranking. 
14:09:59 <cygri> ... if we had the resources: meta search engine?
14:10:12 <George> +1 vocab metacrawler at w3
14:10:14 <cygri> ... would have value if run at W3C
14:10:50 <cygri> ... our best practice document will be frozen in time, so static lists will go out of date
14:10:59 <olyerickson> +1 to more than vocab search; need ranking "vocabRank" or "schemaRank"
14:11:01 <cygri> ... perishable info should maybe not go in there
14:11:11 <BenediktKaempgen> q-
14:11:22 <mhausenblas> q?
14:11:25 <mhausenblas> ack cygri 
14:11:33 <bhyland> The Best Practices Recommendation document will be almost "frozen" as of the publication data.  The way we'll add flexibility to the Vocabs is through the community driven LOD Cookbook.
14:11:35 <mhausenblas> cygri: Agree with Michael
14:11:55 <bhyland> +1 to Michael
14:12:12 <olyerickson> GLD recommendation for "high quality" linked data is to use widely-used, relevant vocabularies *correctly* 
14:12:22 <mhausenblas> cygri: we should avoid to create concrete suggestions what are suitable vocabs - it's arbitrary 
14:12:38 <BartvanLeeuwen> q+
14:12:39 <George> these are two diff gld deliverables tho - selection, and recommended
14:12:39 <olyerickson> The question is, how to find vocabs (a) in wide use (b) whether they are relevant 
14:12:48 <DaveReynolds> +1 to Michael and Richard, W3C shouldn't be maintainer of such lists, especially not if that has implications on procurement
14:12:52 <GofranShukair> q+
14:12:57 <mhausenblas> cygri: I'd like to see guidance on how to use the tools (check lists) to determine what is relevant, quality, etc,
14:13:05 <mhausenblas> q?
14:13:11 <bhyland> Cygri: For this WG, suggest that we have a basic sets of questions we ask the maintainer.  We don't want to arbitrarily add vocabs.
14:13:12 <olyerickson> +1 to DaveReynolds ( by default ;) )
14:13:13 <bhyland> q+
14:13:32 <mhausenblas> boris: I agree with both Richard and Michael said
14:13:54 <olyerickson> I think surveys/questionaires/etc don't scale
14:13:55 <George> recommendation for domain agnostic - cross cutting vocabs for all GLD publishers...
14:13:55 <mhausenblas> q?
14:14:37 <cygri> bhyland: what do you mean by implications on procurement?
14:14:46 <George> snapshot problem regarding procurement and inclusion on some 'list' like a gld deliverable
14:15:05 <olyerickson> I think we should leverage the presence of vocabs "in the wild" (ie LOD Cloud) to assist selection
14:15:50 <bhyland> q?
14:16:17 <mhausenblas> ack PhilA 
14:16:17 <Zakim> PhilA, you wanted to agree with mhausenblas and add a bit more
14:16:24 <cygri> mhausenblas: it's a competitive advantage if my vocab is w3c-listed and yours isn't. best practice document will be frozen in time
14:16:39 <cygri> PhilA: here are some criteria:
14:16:46 <cygri> ... 1. permanence of domain name
14:17:04 <cygri> ... for example, LOV service URL looks not permanent. that's bad.
14:17:17 <George> gov consortium mandates are nice ...
14:17:37 <rreck> I think we should call URLs URLs not URIs
14:17:41 <cygri> ... 2. change control. who's in charge of changing it?
14:17:50 <mhausenblas> q+ re change control and vocab ownership
14:17:55 <cygri> ... dublin core has a large committee in charge, so changing it is hard. that's good
14:18:03 <cygri> ... 3. is it actually used in the wild?
14:18:17 <bhyland> q?
14:18:21 <cygri> ... we should point out these criteria even if it may be very hard to evaluate in practice
14:18:26 <cygri> +1 to all PhilA said
14:18:52 <cygri> BartvanLeeuwen: should also point out that local language documentation is important
14:19:00 <sandro> +1 BartvanLeeuwen -- another criterion is support for multiple languages, eg in the documentation for the vocabulary
14:19:06 <cgueret_work> +1 too
14:19:14 <GofranShukair> +1 too
14:19:17 <cygri> ... ideally, vocabularies should have documentation in multiple languages
14:19:19 <cgueret_work> vocabs should be properly described in several languages
14:19:51 <George> q?
14:20:06 <George> ack BartvanLeeuwen 
14:20:27 <mhausenblas> Michael: We need to distinguish between vocab discovery and vocab creation guidelines, I believe
14:20:49 <cygri> boris: most vocabs are english but governments speak all sorts of languages. we have work in progress on how to express multilingual vocabs on the web of data
14:21:05 <George> GofranShukair: ADMS 
14:21:12 <cygri> GofranShukair: ADMS describes semantic assets. that includes vocabularies
14:21:19 <GofranShukair> http://joinup.ec.europa.eu/asset/adms/home
14:21:37 <George> ack GofranShukair 
14:21:45 <cygri> ... we describe� metadata, incl language
14:21:50 <cygri> ... ready for review
14:22:06 <cygri> q?
14:22:18 <mhausenblas> ack bhyland
14:22:20 <George> ack bhyland
14:22:48 <boris> I can take the action
14:23:08 <cgueret_work> will be pleased to contribute with French concerns
14:23:19 <mhausenblas> ACTION: boris to create a Wiki page on multi-lingualism of vocabs
14:23:19 <trackbot> Created ACTION-31 - Create a Wiki page on multi-lingualism of vocabs [on Boris Villazón-Terrazas - due 2012-02-01].
14:23:20 <cygri> bhyland: multilingual issues are important. awareness should be raised. please, write a blurb on this
14:23:20 <GofranShukair> http://joinup.ec.europa.eu/asset/adms/home
14:23:55 <cygri> q+
14:24:18 <olyerickson> In addition to the multilingual vocab issue, there is the multilingual instance data issue --- english predicates  but literals in other languages. 
14:24:20 <cygri> bhyland: having criteria for inclusion of vocabularies is important. let us draft a list of vocabularies.
14:24:45 <mhausenblas> q?
14:24:53 <cygri> ... where is it hosted? university? production system? what's the institution's commitment to maintenance?
14:25:08 <MacTed> MacTed has joined #gld
14:25:43 <cygri> ... we should work on such a checklist over the next two days
14:25:44 <sandro> +1000
14:25:45 <cgueret_work> +1
14:25:47 <mhausenblas> Michael: we should maybe also talk about vocab management (what is the process to add new terms? who owns the namespace? hit-by-truck scenario)
14:25:53 <George> ack mhausenblas 
14:25:53 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to discuss change control and vocab ownership
14:26:17 <PhilA> +1 to bernadette's suggestions for capturing criteria for vocab selection
14:26:23 <cygri> mhausenblas: there can be issues around ownership of namespace, hit by bus risk etc
14:26:37 <rreck> +1 namespace ownership problems
14:26:42 <George> mhausenblas: namespace ownership, distinguish btw discovery, management, creation advice - more will discover than create - 
14:26:46 <cygri> ... need to distinguish between vocabulary search and vocabulary creation. different issues
14:26:49 <sandro> +1 bhyland: during these two days let's start the checklist of things people need to look for in deciding whether a vocab is good enough, such as stability, domain name, point of contact, etc.
14:27:13 <rreck> I have had commercial clients unwilling to use existing namespaces because of copyright exposure
14:27:25 <cygri> ... experience shows that something can start informally and move to something more formal, e.g. story of VoID
14:27:26 <PhilA> PhilA: notes that danbri has solved the "what happens if I go under a bus" issue through an agreement with DCMI (so FOAF is as stable as DC)
14:27:29 <sandro> ( I don't think bhland said we should produce a list of vocabs. )
14:27:57 <sandro> q?
14:28:02 <cygri> ... so we can say there's a process that can take you from informal work to something permanent and fit for purpose
14:28:28 <sandro> q+ to suggest the document include fears/nightmare-scenarios
14:28:33 <George> q?
14:28:57 <cygri> mhausenblas: i like checklists
14:29:02 <rreck> +1
14:29:12 <mhausenblas> +1 to sandro's  ' fears/nightmare-scenarios'
14:30:01 <sandro> charter quote: "Vocabulary Selection. The group will provide advice on how governments should select RDF vocabulary terms (URIs), including advice as to when they should mint their own. This advice will take into account issues of stability, security, and long-term maintenance commitment, as well as other factors that may arise during the group's work."
14:30:52 <sandro> +1 cygri: don't list vocabs, just list how to evaluate vocabs
14:30:55 <mhausenblas> Michael: Does the WG interpret this in the sense of 'we provide checklist how to' or rather 'list concrete vocabs'?
14:31:06 <mhausenblas> Michael: I'd very much prefer the former
14:31:18 <t_gheen> t_gheen has joined #gld
14:31:20 <George> cygri: lists of recommended vocabs in bp vocab selection? instead, criteria list for selection - then there's std vocabs for cross cutting GLD publisher concerns - nice delineation
14:31:32 <mhausenblas> +1
14:31:47 <simonWall> +1
14:31:50 <mhausenblas> q?
14:31:52 <mhausenblas> ack cygri 
14:31:57 <PhilA> q+ to make 2 suggestions for vocab selection if you want me to, or I'll park it if time is short
14:32:06 <cygri> sandro: i agree. arbitrary lists would be a problem
14:32:07 <DaveReynolds> +1 to cygri, criteria not lists
14:32:26 <cygri> sandro: we might explain that criteria list in terms of "nightmare scenarios"
14:32:29 <George> sandro: how to write this 'checklist' - nice to explain in terms of issues/challenges (fears/nightmare-scenarios)
14:32:38 <George> +1 cygri
14:32:49 <cygri> ... "here are possible things that could go wrong. check how the vocabulary or its maintainers deals with that"
14:33:03 <George> q?
14:33:04 <cygri> ... this would bring it to life
14:33:21 <cygri> bhyland: i agree but can we put a positive spin on it?
14:33:23 <George> ack sandro
14:33:23 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to suggest the document include fears/nightmare-scenarios
14:33:35 <cygri> PhilA: for the record: it would be horrible if danbri was hit by a bus.
14:33:36 <George> ack PhilA 
14:33:36 <Zakim> PhilA, you wanted to make 2 suggestions for vocab selection if you want me to, or I'll park it if time is short
14:33:37 <George> q?
14:33:59 <cygri> PhilA: national part of domains matter
14:34:09 <cygri> ... but you can use .us in .ie
14:34:15 <cygri> q+
14:34:21 <cgueret_work> +1 to PhilA
14:34:32 <Yigal> Yigal has joined #gld
14:34:38 <cygri> ... multilingual: want to use dublin core in finnish? don't reinvent it. provide a translation with finnish labels
14:34:40 <BartvanLeeuwen> +1 to PhilA 
14:35:24 <George> ack cygri 
14:35:30 <George> cygri: +1 provide labels for existing vocab/namespace
14:35:46 <rreck> we should mention Z39.19?
14:36:02 <George> ... common issue/problem/mistake
14:36:03 <simonWall> The Finnish National Library maintains the Finnish version of Dublin Core...
14:36:03 <rreck> skos
14:36:27 <George> mhausenblas: label as 'quality requirement' 
14:36:29 <cygri> mhausenblas: some quality criteria can be expressed as sparql queries
14:36:33 <cygri> ... for example presence of labels
14:36:38 <George> q?
14:36:51 <PhilA> PhilA: chose Finnish at random - but good to see that my entirely random choice is ahead of the game,  simonWall
14:37:30 <cygri> ACTION: mhausenblas to compile first version of vocabulary selection quality checklist
14:37:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-32 - Compile first version of vocabulary selection quality checklist [on Michael Hausenblas - due 2012-02-01].
14:37:47 <DaveReynolds> Having the label in the URI for vocab terms is a multi-language issue for some folks. There is genuine argument on both sides whether opaque URIs + labels in all languages is better than having one preferred language reflected in the URIs.
14:37:59 <mhausenblas> Michael: Z39.19 sounds interesting indeed, thanks rreck! 
14:38:05 <simonWall>  Point taken (I googled that one; I do know that the New Zealand National Library maintains the Maori version of DC though.)
14:38:19 <cygri> ACTION-31?
14:38:19 <trackbot> ACTION-31 -- Boris Villazón-Terrazas to create a Wiki page on multi-lingualism of vocabs -- due 2012-02-01 -- OPEN
14:38:19 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/track/actions/31
14:38:20 <dvilasuero> *mhausenblas: i could help with that action
14:38:56 <Zakim> +sandro.a
14:39:05 <rreck> i have done alot of work with z39.19 and multi-lingual representation
14:39:07 <Zakim> -sandro
14:39:32 <cygri> DaveReynolds, do you have some pointers re multilingual URIs? would be good to include the debate in that wiki page
14:40:32 <cygri> topic: Legacy Data
14:40:41 <SpyrosKotoulas> http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/File:LegacyData.pdf
14:41:07 <cygri> scribenick: BenediktKaempgen 
14:41:34 <DaveReynolds> cygri: would have to dig, the OBO world has best practice advice on using opaque URIs which might be relevant. Also I have annedotal evidence though would need to be circumspect about to phrase that in public :)
14:41:34 <BenediktKaempgen> Spyros: On Dublin data rdfized to RDF
14:41:49 <DaveReynolds> s/about/about how/
14:42:24 <mhausenblas> q+ on the term 'legacy data'
14:42:28 <BenediktKaempgen> ... what is legacy data? Is gov supposed to transform all data (e..g., pdfs, scan, xsl)? 
14:42:45 <BenediktKaempgen> ... most data from relational db
14:42:50 <dvilasuero> cygri: we also have a paper for las dc conf on multilingual URIs
14:43:01 <stasinos> stasinos has joined #gld
14:43:07 <dvilasuero> where we review obo and others
14:43:30 <BenediktKaempgen> ... often also: geo data, temporal data (statistics), record oriented relational data (e.g., about citizens)
14:43:46 <PhilA> Spyros' slides are now linked from the agenda
14:44:24 <PhilA> scribe: BenediktKaempgen
14:45:02 <mhausenblas> q+ re prioritisation of data sources - demand driven
14:45:22 <BenediktKaempgen> ... concerns: privacy issues (who can assess whether something is privacy sensitive?), how much to publish (efficiently, considering the costs), ...
14:46:23 <bhyland> bhyland has joined #gld
14:46:26 <bhyland> ping
14:46:27 <BenediktKaempgen> ... considering risks with opening up data; how about institutions that are not quite government
14:47:00 <bhyland> Sorry is this is a repeat, per the charter on legacy data: "Legacy Data. The group will produce specific advice concerning how to expose legacy data, data which is being maintained in pre-existing (non-linked-data) systems. 
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14:47:25 <BenediktKaempgen> ... also technical issues: architecture, what visualizations (applications consuming data), how to facilitate use by non-experts
14:47:46 <George> q?
14:48:21 <BenediktKaempgen> ... how to automate such processes 
14:48:58 <BenediktKaempgen> ... how to provide guidance/template/references/cookbook for processes
14:49:16 <DaveReynolds> q+ to ask what makes this 'legacy'
14:49:30 <BenediktKaempgen> ... transforming data into RDF often possible but might be awkward
14:49:39 <bhyland> q?
14:49:48 <mhausenblas> ack me
14:49:48 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to comment on the term 'legacy data' and to discuss prioritisation of data sources - demand driven
14:50:33 <olyerickson> I think we should consider referring to "data life cycle" ala http://www.ddialliance.org/what (DDI Alliance)
14:50:40 <BenediktKaempgen> mhausenblas: two reactions: term legacy data, maybe we should use a different term (e.g., raw data)
#14:50:48 <davidwood_> davidwood_ has joined #gld
#14:51:20 <bhyland> zakim, davidwood is me
#14:51:20 <Zakim> sorry, bhyland, I do not recognize a party named 'davidwood'
#14:51:43 <davidwood_> bhyland, please check your phone for immediate text message requiring your action.  Sorry to interrupt.
14:51:44 <olyerickson> I think the core question is, what best practices for data life cycle management should this group make that pertain to GLD? 
#14:51:50 <davidwood_> davidwood_ has left #gld
14:51:52 <BenediktKaempgen> ... Secondly, question always: where to start publishing data? Uptake then further drives publishing process. User-pull rather than publisher-push.
14:52:36 <bhyland> q?
14:52:43 <PhilA> ack DaveReynolds
14:52:43 <DaveReynolds> ack me
14:52:44 <Zakim> DaveReynolds, you wanted to ask what makes this 'legacy'
14:52:51 <George> me thinks we're talking about exposing RDB's ergo R2RML
14:53:02 <cygri> q+
14:53:20 <mhausenblas> Michael: re multimedia interlinking see http://events.linkeddata.org/ldow2009/papers/ldow2009_paper17.pdf
14:53:28 <BenediktKaempgen> DaveReynolds: RDF can walk along "legacy"/raw data
14:53:32 <mhausenblas> q?
14:53:54 <BenediktKaempgen> ... Representing key parts in raw data/legacy is difficult.
14:54:42 <DaveReynolds> zakim, mute me
14:54:42 <Zakim> DaveReynolds should now be muted
14:54:46 <George> +1 - exposing these existing/emerging W3 works for this
14:54:50 <bhyland> q?
14:54:51 <George> q?
14:54:56 <BenediktKaempgen> Richard: We should list related work (R2RML, M, Griddle, xslt...)
14:54:56 <bhyland> q?
14:55:01 <mhausenblas> cygri: There are a number of existing W3C standards that already address the transformation part (R2RML, GRDDL, etc.)
14:55:08 <cygri> ack me
14:55:18 <olyerickson> I think the real issue is how to integrate LD best practices with your existing data life cycle management infrastructure
14:55:37 <mhausenblas> +1 to what olyerickson 
14:55:38 <t_gheen> bhyland: Spyros points out how broad the description of legacy data is in the charter
14:55:47 <t_gheen> ... we should set some boundaries
14:55:48 <dvilasuero> +1 olyericksson
14:55:50 <BenediktKaempgen> Bhyland: How to bound this topic?
14:55:52 <mhausenblas> s/what olyerickson/what olyerickson said
14:55:52 <cygri> +1 to byhland. bounding is important
14:55:53 <mhausenblas> 1+
14:55:56 <mhausenblas> q+
14:56:13 <mhausenblas> Michael: Scope should be on W3C standards and then expand
14:56:31 <bhyland> q?
14:56:38 <mhausenblas> ack me
14:56:41 <olyerickson> @bhyland please re-state what to take a stab at...
14:56:46 <BenediktKaempgen> Topic: Legacy Data discussion
14:57:22 <bhyland> bhyland: the charter is very broad in the description of what is to be included in the "Legacy" section of the BP Recommendation.
14:57:28 <BenediktKaempgen> mhausenblas: What resources are available?
14:57:42 <cygri> q+
14:57:55 <bhyland> We need to bound it.  Suggest we put some lines in the sand as to what is "in" and we'll be able to reasonably do within the next 6 mos in this WG.
14:58:09 <George> mhausenblas: IBM Biplav/Spiros resource committment to drive expeccted 'legacy' contribution
14:58:35 <PhilA> q+
14:58:37 <bhyland> Spyros is here on behalf of IBM and is an invited guest of the F2F.  Thus, he cannot make make committments for IBM to this WG.
14:59:33 <mhausenblas> q?
14:59:35 <cygri> mhausenblas: if we go for a broad interpretation of this topic, then we need people and volunteers
14:59:50 <mhausenblas> ack cygri 
15:00:14 <BenediktKaempgen> cygri: Agree with boundaries. Good starting point would be W3C standards.
15:00:24 <PhilA> q-
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15:00:53 <rreck> better arbitrary than nothing?
15:00:55 <BenediktKaempgen> cygri: E.g., it would be helpful to describe tools. Risk to be arbitrary with inclusion. 
15:01:09 <mhausenblas> q+ re tools
15:01:12 <bhyland_> bhyland_ has joined #gld
15:01:17 <George> cygri: standards, tools, approaches
15:01:39 <BenediktKaempgen> cygri: Also useful to describe approaches, e.g., for modelling. 
15:01:47 <olyerickson> Hmmm...this is the first time I realized we were talking about CONVERSION
15:02:07 <George> q?
15:02:11 <BenediktKaempgen> ... There should be experiences in WG to give recommendations on such processes.
15:02:13 <mhausenblas> Michael: Against listing tools explicit, but rather provide examples of tool catalogs such as found http://www4.wiwiss.fu-berlin.de/latc/toollibrary/ and a http://www.planet-data.eu/results/datasets-and-tools 
15:02:16 <George> ack mhausenblas 
15:02:16 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to discuss tools
15:02:18 <DeirdreLee> q+
15:02:35 <bhyland_> We have some of the content Cygri is describing in the current LOD cookbook, especially as it relates to the auto conversion vs. human-involved modeling.
15:02:45 <bhyland_> q?
15:02:49 <rreck> +1 point at the wiki makes good sense
15:03:02 <BenediktKaempgen> mhausenblas: Problem with tools is that they can get outdated.
15:03:04 <cygri> olyerickson: i converted a price from dollars to pounds recently
15:03:21 <BenediktKaempgen> ... Similar to Vocabulary case, have a checklist.
15:03:37 <bhyland_> MichaelH: His bias is on describing checklist approach rather than a specific list of tools which will become dated over time.
15:03:43 <olyerickson> @cygri that's the "right" direction, isn't it? 
15:03:45 <cygri> q+
15:03:48 <mhausenblas> q?
15:03:54 <mhausenblas> ack DeirdreLee 
15:03:56 <bhyland_> ack DeidreLee
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15:04:27 <BenediktKaempgen> DeirdreLee: Agrees with not describing tools. But in case of vocabularies makes sense.
15:04:54 <olyerickson> q+
15:05:24 <BenediktKaempgen> ... Users demands would help with legacy issues.
15:05:30 <PhilA> ack cygri
15:05:40 <stasinos> stasinos has joined #gld
15:06:47 <BenediktKaempgen> cygri: Agrees with seeing transforming legacy data as a process that needs to be a compromise of effort and benefit. Start with metadata, concept schemes, and later go on with the acutal raw data. Looking at users will really be useful.
15:07:02 <DeirdreLee> q?
15:07:04 <stasinos> cf. http://users.iit.demokritos.gr/~konstant/
15:07:06 <DeirdreLee> q+
15:07:43 <bhyland_> cygri: Handling legacy AKA "raw data" has some logical starting points and (could go on infinitely).  Address misconceptions about converting to RDF as an "augmentation" to existing system.  Others convert to RDF and that is it.
15:07:46 <olyerickson> +1 to cygri
15:07:49 <PhilA> ack olyerickson
15:07:56 <BenediktKaempgen> ... Important w.r.t. legacy data: What does it actually mean? What does it implicate? Regarding on the situation, specific approaches may make more sense than others (e.g., transformaing most data into RDF).
15:08:02 <DanG> DanG has joined #gld
15:08:35 <Zakim> +??P10
15:08:44 <mhausenblas> q+ to ask if we can agree on a term now, please? should we use original data? source data?
15:08:50 <stasinos> Zakim, ??P10 is stasinos
15:08:50 <Zakim> +stasinos; got it
15:09:23 <mhausenblas> Michael: Suggest to think along TimBL's 5 star scheme http://5stardata.info/
15:09:28 <mhausenblas> q?
15:09:57 <BenediktKaempgen> olyerickson: Discussion about legacy is not usefull if not seen from perspective of a certain scenario. Best-practice they need is to continuously manage their data. 
15:10:11 <George> Refine+DERI_extensions and R2RML covers 80% of the GLD publisher waterfront afaic - i'd love to see standards, tools, approaches covering spreadsheets and RDB's
15:10:21 <cygri> olyerickson, i didn't see the link you mentioned?
15:10:33 <rreck> +1 concrete examples are essential
15:10:34 <DaveReynolds> +1 to olyerikson - focus on Linked Data as an access approach and how it ties in to existing data management practice, avoid terms like "legacy"
15:10:38 <BenediktKaempgen> ... Life examples of tools of how to get specific issues done, might be useful.
15:10:40 <George> q?
15:10:47 <PhilA> ack DeirdreLee
15:10:58 <olyerickson> link to DDI Alliance http://www.ddialliance.org/what
15:11:03 <cygri> q+ to suggest talking about standards instead of tools when possible
15:11:08 <bhyland_> Olyerickson: Feels we walk a line between decribing checklists to evaluate vs. associating specific tools to "get the job done."
15:11:21 <olyerickson> Link to ANDS recommendations http://ands.org.au/guides/index.html
15:11:46 <PhilA> q+
15:12:22 <cygri> olyerickson, are you aware of https://github.com/FranckCo/DDIOnto ?
15:12:23 <mhausenblas> ack me
15:12:23 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to ask if we can agree on a term now, please? should we use original data? source data?
15:12:25 <bhyland_> Time check: 3 minutes until tea break
15:12:42 <PhilA> q-
15:12:46 <cygri> ack me
15:12:46 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to suggest talking about standards instead of tools when possible
15:12:52 <BenediktKaempgen> DeirdreLee: Concrete example: EU Inspires (?) data publishing very cumbersome. To sell the approaches to government may be very difficult.
15:12:53 <DaveReynolds>  Aside: INSPIRE can be met via linked data, e.g. UK has proposed URI guidelines for naming INSIPRE spatial objects.
15:12:54 <George> +1 source data (although I don't have any 'legacy' heartburn...)
15:12:54 <bhyland_>  Agreed: Legacy data to be recast as "raw data"
15:13:06 <olyerickson> @cygri No I wasn't, thanks! 
15:13:17 <DanG> Legacy?  How about "metadata-challenged"
15:13:30 <BenediktKaempgen> mhausenblas: Shall we use a different term than legacy. Suggestion: See it in terms of TimBL star schema.
15:13:50 <DeirdreLee> legacy/raw data is 'existing' data. Linked Data is simply an extra way to represent 'existing' data
15:13:53 <George> +1 to hopping TBL's 'raw data' bandwagon, however 'raw data' is a misnomer in my gov experience
15:13:59 <BenediktKaempgen> ... rename legacy to raw data.
15:14:23 <DaveReynolds> -1 to "raw data" that caused problems when TBL used it
15:14:36 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: To use 'raw data' rather then 'legcay data' along TimBL's 5 star scheme
15:14:37 <cygri> kind of -1 to "raw data". statisticians hate that
15:14:44 <PhilA> Proposal: To use the term 'Raw Data' to refer to existing data 
15:14:48 <olyerickson> +1 to "source data" over "raw data"...
15:14:59 <cygri> "non-RDF data"?
15:15:00 <dvilasuero> +1 to source data
15:15:08 <PhilA> Proposal: Not carried
15:15:12 <cygri> "spreadsheets"
15:15:29 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: To use 'source data' rather then 'legacy data' along TimBL's 5 star scheme
15:15:33 <BenediktKaempgen> ???: Mainly about spreadheets and relational data.
15:15:37 <mhausenblas> q?
15:15:42 <mhausenblas> ack sandro
15:16:02 <cygri> +2 to sandro
15:16:28 <stasinos> "pre-formal"?
15:16:40 <danbri> danbri has joined #gld
15:16:56 <olyerickson> +1 to exposing...what? ;)
15:17:26 <bhyland_> OK, chairs have conferred and we agree ... "Source Data"
15:17:35 <olyerickson> mhausenblas' proposal seconded...
15:17:35 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: To use 'non-RDF data' rather then 'legacy data' along TimBL's 5 star scheme
15:17:39 <BenediktKaempgen> mhausenblas: how to call that first publing working draft
15:17:52 <simonWall> unlinked data!
15:17:55 <cgueret_work> -1 to non RDF
15:17:58 <rreck> non-RDF is stilted
15:18:12 <PhilA> -1 to non-RDF
15:18:13 <rreck> +1 bio
15:18:17 <cgueret_work> @simonWall some RDF is also unlinked
15:18:27 <boris> no open data?
15:18:27 <olyerickson> +1 to bladder relief...
15:18:28 <PhilA> +1 to source data
15:18:34 <DaveReynolds> +0 on "source data", it means some different but in a less harmful way than "raw data"
15:18:35 <cgueret_work> +1 to source data
15:18:42 <rreck> +1 source data
15:18:51 <cygri> +0.5 to source data. not my favourite but could work well enough.
15:19:09 <BenediktKaempgen> +1 source data
15:19:50 <mhausenblas> bhyland_: we resume at 10:30am/3:30pm
15:19:56 <Zakim> -galway
15:20:01 <Zakim> -sandro
15:20:02 <Zakim> -rreck
15:20:06 <Zakim> -stasinos
15:20:18 <olyerickson> are we hanging up?
15:20:31 <cmusialek> cmusialek has joined #gld
15:21:01 <Zakim> -simonWall
15:30:00 <sandro> q?
15:30:42 <Zakim> +sandro
15:31:19 <olyerickson> olyerickson has joined #GLD
15:31:27 <olyerickson> olyerickson has left #GLD
15:31:30 <olyerickson> olyerickson has joined #GLD
15:31:39 <olyerickson> do we have to dial in again?
15:31:51 <olyerickson> ...or is everyone on mute? 
15:33:49 <t_gheen> t_gheen has joined #gld
15:33:51 <George> George has joined #gld
15:33:57 <bhyland_> ping, is the Galway team read to resume?
15:34:11 <mhausenblas> yes
15:34:13 <mhausenblas> sorry
15:34:32 <sandro> "Interfacing to Existing Data System"
15:34:38 <sandro> "Providing an RDF Interface"
15:34:39 <BenediktKaempgen> Galway is coming...
15:34:40 <sandro> "RDF Interfaces"
15:34:44 <sandro> galway ping
15:34:46 <sandro> cygri, mhausenblas ...
15:34:59 <Zakim> +galway
15:35:16 <Zakim> +??P9
15:35:27 <stasinos> Zakim, ??P9 is stasinos
15:35:28 <Zakim> +stasinos; got it
15:35:29 <cygri> zakim, i'm with galway
15:35:29 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
15:35:40 <sandro> "Providing RDF Interfaces"
15:35:59 <bhyland_> -1 to non-RDF.  I prefer "Source Data"
15:36:15 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: To use 'source data' rather then 'legacy data' along TimBL's 5 star scheme
15:36:15 <bhyland_> +1 PhilA
15:36:21 <cygri> +0.5
15:36:27 <cgueret_work> +1 to "source" too
15:36:30 <cygri> +0.5 to source data
15:36:54 <DaveReynolds> +0 on "source data", it means some different but in a less harmful way than "raw data" 
15:36:55 <olyerickson> zakim, SUM(sourceData)
15:36:55 <Zakim> I don't understand 'SUM(sourceData)', olyerickson
15:37:12 <BenediktKaempgen> +1 source data (although domain specific/original data would be more clear)
15:37:25 <cgueret_work> and what about "genuine data" ? :)
15:37:28 <bhyland_> Proposal for replacement name, it has a "use by date" of at least the FPWD
15:37:31 <sandro> sandro: the default is we dont revisit decisions.
15:37:35 <boris> +0.98 to "source data"
15:37:37 <bhyland_>  Agreed: "Source Data"
15:37:47 <cgueret_work> cool
15:37:50 <mhausenblas> RESOLUTION: To use 'source data' rather then 'legacy data' along TimBL's 5 star scheme
15:37:54 <Zakim> +??P11
15:37:57 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:37:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/25-gld-minutes.html mhausenblas
15:38:06 <sandro> +0 source data okay as long as it's open to revisiting before LC.     ( -1 to this term forever)
15:38:16 <mhausenblas> q?
15:38:43 <boris> http://logd.tw.rpi.edu/sites/default/files/w3c_gld_uri_construction_25jan12.pdf
15:38:46 <BenediktKaempgen> Topic: URI Construction discussion
15:40:22 <BenediktKaempgen> olyerickson: we have general URI recommendations, e.g., data patterns.
15:40:56 <BenediktKaempgen> dvilasuero: Agrees. 
15:41:26 <bhyland_> What do you mean missing?
15:42:07 <BenediktKaempgen> olyerickson: instance-hub-uri-design makes it possible to re-host uris
15:42:31 <BenediktKaempgen> ... re-host, i.e. move to a different architecture after testing
15:42:37 <DanG> DanG has joined #gld
15:43:21 <BenediktKaempgen> ... requirements to uri creation approach: no need to make URI self-describing, non-domain-specific
15:43:22 <bhyland_> yes, Michael, it must be.  I see legacy discussion in two parts in fact.
15:44:13 <DanG> DanG has joined #gld
15:44:32 <cygri> q+
15:44:53 <PhilA> q+ to caution against using the org component, slide 3
15:45:24 <DaveReynolds> q+
15:45:52 <BenediktKaempgen> ... major parts: id, org, category/token
15:47:39 <DanG> What about using subject matter categories rather than agency based ones?  They won't die if the agency does.
15:47:46 <BenediktKaempgen> ... explanations of examples are linked from the wiki, e.g. in best practices document
15:48:33 <DaveReynolds> DanG - UK recommendation is def to use subject matter and avoid agencies
15:48:36 <BenediktKaempgen> ... room for discussion.
15:48:36 <bhyland_> q?
15:48:43 <Yigal> q+
15:48:46 <PhilA> ack cygri
15:49:29 <olyerickson> This is NOT a recommendation; it's simply what we are ucing
15:49:35 <olyerickson> s/ucing/using/
15:49:46 <bhyland_> @Michael - we're planning to break in 15-20 minutes, when we've completed or at least come to natural break point in URI discussion.  We have to walk to get our lunch.
15:50:28 <simonWall> I was planning to be gone by now, good night all.
15:50:29 <BenediktKaempgen> Richard: Good handle of what the section should say. Small concern: some guidelines are applicable everywhere,e.g., slashes, stability; other aspects that apply only to specific use cases. UK gov guidelines mostly only apply to specific environments.
15:50:53 <BenediktKaempgen> ... E.g., re-hosting is something quite specific. 
15:51:04 <olyerickson> @cygri good point; that was "merely" RPI's requirement ;)
15:51:05 <bhyland_> cygri: The main focus should be on stuff that is "true everywhere".  
15:51:33 <bhyland_> What always applies vs. more specific example that could be better described as use cases.
15:51:34 <BenediktKaempgen> ... Recommendations should be more generic. Needed: To abstract from the use cases of TWC or UK gov to have a less complicated design.
15:52:11 <bhyland_> Example from DERI, re: data.gov.ie project ...
15:52:31 <mhausenblas> s/data.gov.ie/http://data-gov.ie 
15:52:32 <Zakim> -simonWall
15:52:42 <BenediktKaempgen> ... approach was to complicated, but this was realized only afterwards.
15:52:49 <George> q?
15:52:50 <dvilasuero> +1 cygri
15:52:53 <PhilA> ack me
15:52:53 <Zakim> PhilA, you wanted to caution against using the org component, slide 3
15:53:42 <BenediktKaempgen> PhilA: Concern: Names of governments departements change very often, should not be included in URI. Similar goes for locations. 
15:53:53 <bhyland_> How about if we provide 1) background on the imporance of URI strategy; 2) the value of persistence strategy; 3) detail the issues involved to evaluate a URI scheme
15:53:55 <bhyland_> q?
15:56:00 <BenediktKaempgen> olyerickson: Good point. But there is always the question whether create URIs from the concepts (from the actual data). If modelled from the data, then even if concepts changed, at that time of modelling the data was valid and as such the URIs are valid still, also.
15:56:52 <Yigal> Yigal has joined #gld
15:56:53 <stasinos> q+
15:56:55 <olyerickson> _dammit or /dammit ?;)
15:56:55 <mhausenblas> Michael: I don't see much of a point in criticising RPI's work now - he made it clear it's an example, not the recommendation  
15:57:21 <olyerickson> +1 to sandro's point
15:57:32 <BenediktKaempgen> sandro: important to have a plan in case a name changes.
15:57:37 <DaveReynolds> ack me
15:57:45 <bhyland_>  NB: We aren't criticizing RPIs URI draft ... it gave us something in black & white to discuss.  Therefore it is good & useful IMO.  
15:58:03 <George> {sector}.data.gov.*/id/{thing-type}/{instance}/natural/instance/hierarchy
15:59:00 <cygri> really good point
15:59:11 <DeirdreLee> DeirdreLee has joined #gld
15:59:13 <mhausenblas> +1 to Dave's wise words re scalability of URI spaces via sub-domains
15:59:33 <bhyland_> DaveReynolds: Describe constants: 1) the constants (e.g., sectors for the UK). 2) use of sub-domains to allow for autonomy within gov't authorities. 3) explain scalability implications involved depending on URI structure.  Explain URI construction and allude to performance issues ...
16:00:04 <mhausenblas> +1
16:00:06 <George> q?
16:00:07 <bhyland_> ... Separating the advice of what to do vs. if you don't do it, you'll get bitten in the bum
16:00:08 <stasinos> +1
16:00:09 <dvilasuero> +1
16:00:10 <bhyland_> q?
16:00:11 <DeirdreLee> Stale URIs (from non-existant depts) will make the data look stale, even if it's brand new....
16:00:19 <BenediktKaempgen> DaveReynolds: Depends on the use of URIs: stabilized, architecture-dependent. Separation of tools that allow to create uris and the methods of how to deal with issues afterwards.
16:00:20 <George> ack Yigal 
16:01:45 <mhausenblas> Michael: We're implicitly assuming transparent URIs now
16:01:49 <BenediktKaempgen> Yigal: also responsibilities change. We need to think about temporal issues such as at what time did uri represent something.
16:02:02 <olyerickson> q+
16:02:09 <mhausenblas> Michael: also known as hackable URIs 
16:02:24 <George> ack sandro 
16:02:37 <George> Yigal: temporal aspect in URI? which HHS? responsibilities change even if/when orgs don't
16:02:41 <t_gheen> t_gheen has joined #gld
16:03:14 <DaveReynolds> For those who may not be aware ... as well as the original UK recommendations http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/media/308995/public_sector_uri.pdf there are recommendations about spatial objects (as relates to the EU INSPIRE directive) http://location.defra.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Designing_URI_Sets_for_Location-V1.0.pdf useful example of patterns of things beyond "id" and "def"
16:03:32 <Zakim> -sandro
16:03:35 <cygri> +1 to point out ways in which things can/will break
16:03:52 <George> q?
16:03:52 <Zakim> +sandro
16:04:00 <BenediktKaempgen> bhyland: We need to bound URI construction topic.
16:04:42 <stasinos> q-
16:05:11 <BenediktKaempgen> ... On the one hand best practices should be valid as long as possible. On the other hand it should also include more specific issues.
16:06:16 <olyerickson> q?
16:06:21 <BenediktKaempgen> ... cannot tell Google, Yahoo which vocabularies to use.
16:06:22 <olyerickson> q?
16:06:34 <olyerickson> q?
16:06:49 <olyerickson> q?
16:06:50 <BenediktKaempgen> :-) thanks PhilA. Can someone scribe?
16:07:00 <bhyland> bhyland has joined #gld
16:07:13 <PhilA> scribe: PhilA
16:07:14 <BenediktKaempgen> Thanks.
16:07:22 <cygri> q+
16:07:23 <bhyland> ping
16:07:27 <cmusialek> sorry about that!
16:07:46 <PhilA> olyerickson: I'd like to propose that the guidance we're getting -> we should transform what we have so far into a check list or decision tree
16:08:02 <cmusialek> thanks!
16:08:08 <DruidSmith> DruidSmith has joined #gld
16:08:15 <bhyland> sorry from all of us in DC .. we seem to get aperiodically dropped from our guest network and there is no explicit notification ...
16:08:19 <PhilA> olyerickson: highlight the issues. What we're saying is what we did, what we thought about and why we did it
16:08:29 <bhyland> and worst, we loose the IRC history :-(
16:08:39 <bhyland> s/worst/worse of all/
16:09:32 <George> q?
16:09:40 <mhausenblas> q?
16:09:44 <George> ack olyerickson 
16:09:53 <DanG> DanG has joined #gld
16:10:16 <Yigal> Yigal has joined #gld
16:10:39 <George> UK guidance also talks about /def (controversy!) and /dataset among other topics
16:10:47 <PhilA> bhyland: I would say, not having read the UK guidance in 8 months or so - that's more comprehensive and thought out. We should consider others (and strip out the UK-specific stuff)
16:10:49 <bhyland> q?
16:10:57 <PhilA> sandro: I like the decision tree idea a lot
16:11:01 <olyerickson> +1 to "decision tree" idea
16:11:33 <PhilA> sandro: "Don't do this" or it will cause problems later and "you probably don't want to do this but you may have reasons not to" and so on
16:12:21 <PhilA> bhyland: cmusialekhas a mission to do today. I don't think the guidance is ready for him. The RPI draft is a good input - needs to be discussed further
16:12:26 <olyerickson> "RPI thing" is not a draft...it's what we did and why ;)
16:12:59 <cygri> q?
16:13:08 <olyerickson> Wait a minute...I think ChrisM is a test subject and should actually 
16:13:13 <PhilA> cmusialek: I'm less familiar with the intricacies of URI design. But I'm hearing that it's time to act from the US gov and maybe get 80% right
16:13:17 <bhyland> s/cmusialekhas/cmusialek/
16:13:22 <PhilA> olyerickson: I'm going to disagree with you, bhyland
16:13:54 <PhilA> olyerickson: We're not saying to Chris, go ahead and use this. I'm saying "try it, see what breaks and let us know"
16:14:08 <bhyland> Olyerickson is saying the draft RPI URI guidance is a proposal ... try it and give us feedback.
16:14:11 <PhilA> olyerickson: I'd also say take a look at the UK advice and tell us what the problem is
16:14:22 <DeirdreLee> +1 Olyerickson 
16:14:25 <bhyland> RPI has used the RPI version for a very specific case.
16:14:27 <PhilA> olyerickson: We've used ours for a very specific case
16:14:35 <DeirdreLee> community drives standards or standards drive community?
16:14:53 <bhyland> q?
16:14:55 <PhilA> The former DeirdreLee (if it's to be used)
16:14:57 <bhyland> q+
16:15:18 <mhausenblas> ack cygri 
16:15:29 <PhilA> cygri: I wanted to say that in terms of structuring these BP Recommendations, I agree with sandro and mhausenblas to structure these as a list
16:15:49 <PhilA> cygri: Seems a good way to teach/inform
16:15:54 <olyerickson> +1 to cautioning about what might go wrong...BUT it needs to be informed advice
16:16:19 <George> q?
16:16:22 <PhilA> cygri: Have you thought about future change? Is there 'cruft' in there (scribe doesn't recognise the term cruft but that's life)
16:16:25 <boris> +1 to richard
16:16:26 <mhausenblas> ack bhyland 
16:16:30 <mhausenblas> +10000 to cygri 
16:16:35 <George> ack bhyland 
16:17:25 <PhilA> bhyland: I appreciate John's request for data.gov to take the RPI advice and see how it works. That might be the RPI state, but I'm not sure it's the W3C position as it hasn't been sanctioned by the WG
16:17:31 <cygri> olyerickson, who suggested giving uninformed advice? ;-)
16:17:32 <olyerickson> +1 to keeping things separate 
16:18:04 <olyerickson> q+ then break
16:18:32 <cygri> ack then,
16:18:38 <cygri> ack break
16:18:38 <olyerickson> @cygri I didn't mean...hmmm...what did I mean ;)
16:18:45 <cygri> ack then
16:18:54 <bhyland> AnneW: How do we iterate through a suggested set of guidelines & recommendations?
16:19:29 <olyerickson> PROPOSAL: URI sub-team work on a check-list for URI construction
16:19:29 <cmusialek> cmusialek has joined #gld
16:19:31 <PhilA> sandro: The WG is supposed to iterate on the doc until everyone agrees with it
16:19:38 <PhilA> ... then it goes to the outside world
16:19:43 <PhilA> ... etc.
16:19:45 <mhausenblas> +1 to olyerickson proposal
16:19:58 <boris> +1 to oleyrickson
16:20:03 <bhyland> sandro: The normal W3C process is that the group reviews and once they don't have any problems with it, then goes to last candidate review for feedback.
16:20:09 <dvilasuero> +1 to oleyrickson
16:20:46 <PhilA> bhyland: What RPI has provided is a draft. But let's encourage cmusialek to be part of the discussion as it continues to evolve
16:20:54 <olyerickson> +1 to cmusialek et.al. be part of the conversation
16:20:56 <Zakim> +rreck
16:20:59 <bhyland> q?
16:21:07 <PhilA> bhyland: Are we at a natural breaking point?
16:21:08 <Yigal> In reference to using Congressional Districts as example: Is everyone aware that these are redrawn every 10 years? 
16:21:11 <PhilA> GalwayL YES
16:21:35 <Zakim> -stasinos
16:21:44 <olyerickson> are we hanging up? 
16:21:50 <mhausenblas> reconvene at 12:25 and 5:15pm 
16:22:01 <olyerickson> I can also stay on bridge...
16:22:02 <mhausenblas> Zakim, mute galway
16:22:02 <Zakim> galway should now be muted
16:22:10 <mhausenblas> reconvene at 12:15 and 5:15pm 
16:22:26 <olyerickson> zakim, mute olyerickson.
16:22:26 <Zakim> olyerickson should now be muted
16:22:31 <mhausenblas> Zakim, unmute galway
16:22:31 <Zakim> galway should no longer be muted
16:24:13 <mhausenblas> Zakim, mute galway
16:24:13 <Zakim> galway should now be muted
16:24:18 <Zakim> -sandro
16:24:24 <Zakim> -rreck
16:24:31 <Zakim> -GeraldSteeman
16:27:06 <Zakim> -DaveReynolds
16:28:14 <PhilA> Wiki record of these minutes is up to date at this point
16:36:18 <olyerickson> Note for the "Vocabulary Selection" team: check out the recent addition to DataFAQs re: the role of vocabulary selection in Linked data quality https://github.com/timrdf/DataFAQs/wiki/Assisting-vocabulary-selection
16:43:26 <mhausenblas> I have to go now, unfortunately, Richard is taking over Galway. Literally. :)
16:50:17 <boris> boris has joined #gld
17:09:18 <Zakim> +sandro
17:10:24 <PhilA> sandro: the Washington room is still empty (the video link is showing us that). I can ping you when we're about to reconvene if you like?
17:22:09 <mhausenblas> mhausenblas has joined #gld
17:22:19 <DeirdreLee> DeirdreLee has joined #gld
17:25:06 <Zakim> -galway
17:25:19 <dvilasuero> dvilasuero has joined #gld
17:25:48 <cygri> zkim, code
17:25:52 <cygri> zakim, code?
17:25:52 <Zakim> the conference code is 4531 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), cygri
17:26:01 <Zakim> +galway
17:27:24 <Zakim> +??P1
17:27:29 <dvilasuero> zakim, dvilasuero is with galway
17:27:29 <Zakim> +dvilasuero; got it
17:27:34 <DaveReynolds> zakim, ??P1 is me
17:27:34 <Zakim> +DaveReynolds; got it
17:27:42 <dvilasuero> zakim, boris is with galway
17:27:42 <Zakim> +boris; got it
17:27:59 <olyerickson> zakim, who is one the phone?
17:27:59 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, olyerickson.
17:28:09 <olyerickson> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:28:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see Washington, olyerickson (muted), ChristopheGueret, sandro, galway, DaveReynolds
17:28:12 <Zakim> galway has galway, dvilasuero, boris
17:28:37 <PhilA> zakim, galway has BartvanLeeuwen, BenediktKaempgen, boris, cygri, DeirdreLee, dvilasuero, fadi, GofranShukair, PhilA, SpyrosKotoulas
17:28:37 <Zakim> boris was already listed in galway, PhilA
17:28:38 <Zakim> dvilasuero was already listed in galway, PhilA
17:28:39 <cygri> zakim, i'm with galway
17:28:40 <Zakim> +BartvanLeeuwen, BenediktKaempgen, cygri, DeirdreLee, fadi, GofranShukair, PhilA, SpyrosKotoulas; got it
17:28:43 <boris> zakim, csarven is with galway
17:28:44 <Zakim> cygri was already listed in galway, cygri
17:28:47 <Zakim> +csarven; got it
17:29:56 <t_gheen> t_gheen has joined #gld
17:31:00 <PhilA> Topic: Discussion on Best Practices for Publishing Government Linked Data (FPWD)
17:31:27 <PhilA> bern: Did a big restructuring of the wiki page yesterday
17:33:07 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/charter
17:33:16 <George_> George_ has joined #gld
17:33:22 <PhilA> BernHyland: Two questions - how do we move from a wiki to a FPWD, and how do we reflect fture changes
17:33:32 <PhilA> s/fture/future/
17:33:50 <PhilA> sandro: We can publish directly from the wiki using a transformation script we have
17:34:09 <PhilA> sandro: It's called RevDoc. It's only my WGs that have used it
17:34:13 <PhilA> ... so far
17:34:17 <PhilA> ... code is not polished
17:34:32 <PhilA> ... alternative is to convert to respec which a lot of folk prefer
17:34:36 <Zakim> +GeraldSteeman
17:35:03 <PhilA> bernHyland: does it require your help to use RevDoc?
17:35:14 <PhilA> sandro: yes - incantations and bones are involved
17:35:22 <PhilA> sandro: it could be useful but there are alternatives
17:36:00 <PhilA> bernHyland: Respec is the alternative
17:36:13 <cygri> q+ to mention ReSpec 2
17:36:21 <PhilA> bh: I'm familiar with Respec so I'd rather use that
17:36:34 <Yigal> Yigal has joined #gld
17:37:00 <PhilA> bh: I'll need help from people to make sure that they remember to record who changes what and when
17:37:30 <bhyland> bhyland has joined #gld
17:37:32 <bhyland> ping
17:37:38 <boris> http://dev.w3.org/2009/respec2/
17:38:01 <cygri> ack me
17:38:01 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to mention ReSpec 2
17:38:28 <PhilA> bh: There seemed to be a lot of activity last September in terms for formatting that we can look at
17:39:06 <cygri> q+ to ask what documents the group is going to publish
17:39:51 <PhilA> sandro: One month off is OK. But we can put changes on the front page of the wiki
17:39:54 <PhilA> ack cygri
17:39:58 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to ask what documents the group is going to publish
17:40:02 <bhyland> q?
17:40:17 <PhilA> cygri: Do we have something like a complete list of the documents that the WG is going to produce (Rec and non-Rec)
17:40:41 <DaveReynolds> +1 a clear list of docs and intended status would be helpful
17:40:55 <PhilA> bhyland: The community directory is published, BPs will be a Rec,
17:41:13 <BenediktKaempgen> +1 to list of documents that will be produced
17:41:26 <PhilA> sandro: The Wg should do what it thinks is best, there are no rules as such
17:41:58 <PhilA> bhyland: We should put things that logically go together in a single doc. For e.g. we might have a lot of stuff about URI consutruction that could be separate
17:42:18 <PhilA> bhyland: The Cookbook isn't a Rec - it could become part of the directory
17:43:09 <PhilA> George_: The milestones section of the charter says that the directory and cookbook are separate
17:43:23 <PhilA> sandro: I think we should remain open to splitting docs as we see fit
17:43:24 <mhausenblas> Michael: Regarding publishing the BP FPWD, I think boris and I already had a chat, no? Boris, can you share our proposal on the call, please?
17:43:44 <boris> q+
17:43:50 <Mike_Pendleton> Mike_Pendleton has joined #gld
17:44:03 <DaveReynolds> q+
17:44:12 <mhausenblas> Michael: Essentially, the idea was to manually transfer the content from the Wiki - we're three Editors, so workload-wise this should work
17:44:47 <Zakim> +sandro.a
17:44:50 <PhilA> cygri: I thought the Recommended vocabs were going to be in separate docs (DCAT and Data Cube) but I don't know about the otehr areas
17:44:50 <Zakim> -sandro
17:45:04 <DaveReynolds> q-
17:45:04 <bhyland> cygri: suggested re: recommended vocabs, have one doc for DCAT, another for DataCube
17:45:13 <mhausenblas> Michael: Just to make it clear - I'm against the script-based version from the Wiki as we have a rather messy structure there and I don't wanna play guinea pig. sorry sandro, no offence  meant
17:45:34 <PhilA> sandro: If we're just going to endorse someone else's vocab we don't need a big doc for that
17:45:45 <PhilA> bhyland: How much of the data cube spec is already written?
17:46:17 <PhilA> cygri: We have a spec that is pretty much ready. We might want to add things and improve things but in principle there is an existing spec that covers what you woujld expect it to
17:46:35 <PhilA> ... we will need to write more if we decide that there are issues that need to be addressed?
17:47:12 <PhilA> bhyland: Is there any benefit for having this as a separate doc?
17:47:15 <DaveReynolds> +1 that's what I thought
17:47:29 <PhilA> cygri: Yes, that makes sense and I already have an action item to create it
17:47:37 <PhilA> ... with help from DaveReynolds et al
17:47:50 <BenediktKaempgen> +1 QB should be an own spec
17:48:00 <mhausenblas> +1
17:48:01 <boris> +1 separate spec for qb
17:48:15 <bhyland> q?
17:48:17 <PhilA> ack boris
17:48:58 <PhilA> boris: wrt the draft of the BP spec - we (Michael, Bern and I will create the doc, people only need to update the wiki)
17:49:03 <PhilA> bhyland: Agreed
17:49:08 <olyerickson> olyerickson has joined #GLD
17:49:12 <PhilA> Topic: Community Directory
17:49:44 <PhilA> Slides are at http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/images/c/c6/BHyland_W3C_GLD_WG_F2F2_Directory.pdf
17:50:32 <PhilA> bhyland: The idea is the the CD (Community Directory) is a place where people not necessarily familiar with LD can get some guidance
17:50:53 <PhilA> bhyland: The initial CD was put together with some loose requirements from the June f2f
17:53:03 <DanG> DanG has joined #gld
17:53:12 <PhilA> bhyland: Talks through her slides
17:53:59 <PhilA> bhyland: Haven't had a lot of feedback - need and would like more
17:54:14 <DaveReynolds> zakim, mute me
17:54:14 <Zakim> DaveReynolds should now be muted
17:54:18 <PhilA> bhyland: So where do we go? semanticweb.org? SWEO?
17:54:39 <PhilA> bhyland: Now that we have a working site, we can seek feedback, maybe open it up
17:55:10 <PhilA> q?
17:55:13 <bhyland> q?
17:55:14 <George_> q?
17:55:25 <Mike_Pendleton> q?
17:56:33 <PhilA> bhyland: I think the first thing is to make sure that people think it's a good idea
17:56:48 <olyerickson> RE UI, actually simple is good --- priority should be *useful*
17:57:28 <PhilA> bhyland: Biplav asked what a company like IBM should put in? What's the (relevant) address for IBM?
17:57:41 <George_> bhyland: addresses for global/multi-national concern is good topic for vocab rec tomorrow
17:57:48 <PhilA> cygri: DERI is listed in there. We did that because we were asked to do it
17:58:05 <PhilA> cygri: But I was thinking about why I should want to return to it to make sure our data is up to date?
17:58:16 <olyerickson> q+
17:58:28 <George_> cygri: what's the incentive for data freshness on the CD?
17:58:31 <PhilA> cygri: If people come here to find info about expertise then obviously we'd want to be properly represented
17:58:56 <PhilA> cygri: We have an interest in being found if people are looking for LD expertise in Ireland
17:59:32 <DeirdreLee> we need a vocabulary to describe Linked Data domain :)
17:59:35 <PhilA> cygri: I'd be interested to know who else is working on the kind of thing we do
17:59:46 <George_> cygri: LD Communities of Interest/Practice query where?
18:00:42 <olyerickson> q?
18:01:20 <PhilA> bhyland: We used the W3C CSS and then made changes - we'd like to make the side panel batter
18:01:23 <sandro> q+
18:01:24 <bhyland> q?
18:01:24 <olyerickson> q?
18:01:38 <olyerickson> zakim, unmute me.
18:01:38 <Zakim> olyerickson should no longer be muted
18:02:34 <PhilA> olyerickson: Don't be too hard on yourself. It looks good and it's hard to do faceted browsing
18:03:25 <PhilA> olyerickson: There seems to be some interlinking that is not linking up. If you choose a company, then look at the topics, then try and click on those, what you expect to see is a re-listing of relevant companies 
18:04:29 <PhilA> bhyland: Agree it would be useful to have tool tips around different terms
18:04:37 <cygri> q+
18:04:38 <PhilA> ... such as adding tool tips
18:04:41 <PhilA> ack olyerickson
18:04:47 <olyerickson> q-
18:05:35 <PhilA> bhyland: I agree with cygri that if you know people are finding you through the DIR then you'll be more careful about keeping it up to date
18:05:41 <PhilA> ]ack sandro
18:05:43 <bhyland> q?
18:05:45 <PhilA> ack sandro
18:06:26 <Mike_Pendleton> q+
18:06:47 <PhilA> sandro: I'm super picky about sites as a user. But I do have to wonder about a bit of usability testing wouldn't be a bad thing. Unless it delivers a good experience on attempt 1 you might lose people
18:07:07 <PhilA> sandro: Are there way that other people could contribute improvements? Fork?
18:07:13 <cmusialek> cmusialek has joined #gld
18:07:24 <Zakim> -DaveReynolds
18:07:30 <PhilA> sandro: I'm not sure how Callimachus puts things together. Are there grad students that could do stuff with it?
18:08:01 <PhilA> bhyland: They're welcome to download the code and work on it. This is built on v.12 - we're now on v.16 which now includes import/export of apps
18:08:19 <PhilA> bhyland: updating the instance doesn't take a lot of work
18:08:40 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has left #gld
18:08:50 <PhilA> bhyland: There's not a large technical hurdle to overcome. Just a bit of CSS and JS
18:09:09 <PhilA> ... what I'd like is a list of features that we can fix
18:09:17 <PhilA> ... expecially if they're trivial!
18:09:39 <PhilA> s/expecially/especially/
18:10:07 <PhilA> bhyland: We went to a lot of trouble to get it on a w3 domain for reasons of permanence etc. Got to be easy to use
18:10:15 <PhilA> sandro: Do you have an issues list?
18:10:24 <olyerickson> @sandro VERY good point!!
18:10:30 <cygri> +1 to sandro
18:10:38 <olyerickson> is there a github wiki? 
18:10:43 <PhilA> bhyland: I'll ask James how he wants to queue up issues
18:11:14 <PhilA> bhyland: Things like needing a login is surprising
18:11:23 <sandro> q?
18:11:24 <olyerickson> What is the code host? github? Google Code? each have built-in issues trackers
18:11:25 <PhilA> .... but maybe that's a good thing to prevent the spam
18:11:45 <sandro> action: bhyland to set up an issues list for dir.w3.org
18:11:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-33 - Set up an issues list for dir.w3.org [on Bernadette Hyland - due 2012-02-01].
18:12:10 <olyerickson> Problem solved: http://code.google.com/p/callimachus/issues/list 
18:12:19 <PhilA> bhyland: Then we can see what is easy and what needs more work to implement, prioritise etc.
18:12:29 <George_> q?
18:12:32 <bhyland> q?
18:12:36 <olyerickson> Ah okay
18:12:48 <PhilA> sandro: There's a Callimachus issues list, what we need is a dir.w3.org issue list
18:12:58 <olyerickson> @sandro thanks for the clarification
18:13:05 <bhyland> q?
18:13:07 <PhilA> bhyland: Obviously James and I are best places to decide if it's a Callimachus or dir.w3.org issue
18:13:12 <PhilA> ack cygri
18:13:35 <PhilA> cygri: I wanted to give an armchair view of usability but not sure if that' the bets use of our time?
18:13:36 <sandro> now you can submit issues.  :-)
18:14:25 <BartvanLeeuwen> q+
18:14:29 <PhilA> bhyland: I have an bias towards action - I was expecting some philosophical issues to deal with
18:14:38 <PhilA> ack Mike_Pendleton
18:14:44 <cygri> on the philosophical side, i just want to know whether it's httpRange-14 compliant
18:15:05 <PhilA> I'm going to need to ask other people in the government space and see what they expect and compare it with what there is
18:15:47 <t_gheen> Mike_Pendleton: bugs in Firefox display
18:15:49 <PhilA> Mike_Pendleton: The left had side has a list of things that may or may not mean anything to people. ... Conversation then found a bug
18:16:32 <PhilA> Mike_Pendleton: continues to give thoughts to bhyland who takes notes...
18:17:38 <cygri> q+
18:17:55 <t_gheen> bhyland: how about visualizations?
18:17:58 <bhyland> http://dir.w3.org/page/number-of-organizations-by-country.xhtml?view
18:18:04 <t_gheen> ... names queries?
18:18:11 <t_gheen> s/names/named
18:18:32 <sandro> Hmmm.   When I'm looking at an "area of expertise", like http://dir.w3.org/scheme/organizational+categories/rdf+store?view ...  I don't see who has that expertise.
18:18:33 <t_gheen> ... are there other ways to view the information that are more meaninful?
18:18:34 <olyerickson> Not sure what you're looking at...
18:18:42 <cygri> q?
18:19:19 <olyerickson> Okay, bhyland was referring to visualizations on http://dir.w3.org/page/number-of-organizations-by-country.xhtml?view
18:19:40 <t_gheen> bhyland: any suggestions for linking up with egov interest group?
18:19:50 <t_gheen> ... open knowledge foundation
18:20:42 <olyerickson> q?
18:21:20 <bhyland> q?
18:22:02 <PhilA> PhilA: That's best achieved by a personal conversation
18:22:20 <PhilA> cygri: We work with OKFN and can tell them about it. The DIR isn't quite there yet though
18:23:35 <boris> q?
18:23:41 <bhyland> q?
18:23:52 <PhilA> ack BartvanLeeuwen
18:23:59 <t_gheen> ACTION: bhyland convene a meeting on armchair usability for community directory
18:24:00 <trackbot> Created ACTION-34 - Convene a meeting on armchair usability for community directory [on Bernadette Hyland - due 2012-02-01].
18:24:31 <PhilA> BartvanLeeuwen: Backing up a bit... if we think about being able to pull some data directly from the Web, perhaps through gr: data?
18:25:04 <George_> BartvanLeeuwen: GR for company products services (Deirdre - vocab for LD domain?)
18:25:26 <t_gheen> bhyland: how does GR pull/update company info? 
18:25:38 <PhilA> bhyland: I think it's a really good suggestion.
18:25:52 <George_> ... and then pull that from where ever into the CD
18:25:56 <PhilA> Lots of red faces around the table looking at the large pile of uneaten dog food
18:26:04 <sandro> q+
18:26:38 <PhilA> bhyland: We could offer guidance on what RDFa to include on your site, then we could accept a URL of a page to parse and then that could be added to the directory
18:26:39 <t_gheen> bhyland: if there was basic RDFa on someone's site, how can we automatically update their info in the directory?
18:26:51 <PhilA> bhyland: It's tiresome to have to enter that by hand in 2012
18:27:14 <PhilA> sandro: I think we'd want to support the system being able to import data from a given location
18:27:23 <PhilA> BartvanLeeuwen: and preferably auto-updating too
18:27:35 <George_> sandro: auto slurping high on list of to do's in general
18:27:36 <cygri> washington seems to have dropped off skype?
18:27:43 <olyerickson> q+
18:27:43 <DeirdreLee> Core business vocabulary?
18:27:51 <t_gheen> bhyland: what is the state of the art for scraping a page, RDFa?
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18:28:01 <PhilA> bhyland: What's the state of the art for being able to scrape a site for RDFa,
18:28:14 <PhilA> sandro: It doesn't have to be RDFa, it can be any RDF format
18:28:15 <DeirdreLee> https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/asset/core_business/home
18:28:22 <PhilA> BartvanLeeuwen: I'm willing to take a look at it
18:29:04 <PhilA> bhyland: take our site - say we had a book that we'd published. And we marked up the page with data. How to do we say look at this and this but not that
18:29:05 <olyerickson> q?
18:29:09 <olyerickson> q?
18:29:16 <cygri> q+ to say this is not on the critical path for the community directory
18:29:36 <PhilA> BartvanLeeuwen: If you look at GR you can say what your service offerings are
18:30:28 <George_> action: BartvanLeeuwen to investigate GR ingest from CD provided page
18:30:29 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - BartvanLeeuwen
18:30:32 <olyerickson> q?
18:30:57 <PhilA> action: BartvanLeeuwen to investigate how Good Relations etc could assist with automatically filling up the directory
18:30:57 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - BartvanLeeuwen
18:31:05 <olyerickson> can we please not make this more complicated than necessary
18:31:10 <PhilA> action: Leeuwen to investigate how Good Relations etc could assist with automatically filling up the directory
18:31:11 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Leeuwen
18:31:18 <PhilA> action: van Leeuwen to investigate how Good Relations etc could assist with automatically filling up the directory
18:31:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-35 - Leeuwen to investigate how Good Relations etc could assist with automatically filling up the directory [on Bart van Leeuwen - due 2012-02-01].
18:31:25 <PhilA> ack cygri
18:31:25 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to say this is not on the critical path for the community directory
18:31:27 <bhyland> q?
18:31:28 <George_> q?
18:32:04 <PhilA> cygri: I'm all for eating our own dog food. At the same time, to make the CD a success, the question of whetehr it can slup in RDFa is not necessarily the most important
18:32:15 <George_> but it does speak to the freshness and updating issue :)
18:32:20 <PhilA> cygri: I don't want to discourage people looking at it, but it's not priority number 1
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18:32:38 <PhilA> cygri: So this is a vendor directory for LD organisations etc, yes?
18:32:57 <PhilA> cygri: Are there similar examples of sites that do the same for other areas?
18:32:57 <bhyland> It is broader than a vendor directory.
18:33:17 <bhyland> Cygri: is there an analogous site to this one?
18:33:20 <PhilA> cygri: Can we find an example of something that achieves what we want to do in a differnt domain?
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18:33:34 <PhilA> bhyland: The library community likes directories
18:33:43 <PhilA> bhyland: It's not just about vendors
18:33:56 <George_> agree with Mike_Pendleton wrt being aligned with Procurement
18:33:57 <PhilA> bhyland: It's about finding expertise, whether commercial, academic or whatever
18:34:38 <t_gheen> bhyland: there are many examples of these kinds of directories - ex. travel sites
18:34:48 <boris> biomedical directories
18:35:32 <PhilA> ack olyerickson
18:35:44 <Mike_Pendleton> Mike_Pendleton has joined #gld
18:35:45 <PhilA> olyerickson: I'll reinforce what others have said about KISS
18:36:09 <PhilA> olyerickson: It's hard to get people to add their data, even harder to get them to recode their websites
18:36:22 <DeirdreLee> q+
18:36:46 <PhilA> ... if we want to be able to slurp in pre-cooked RDF then great, but maybe that should be a separate file
18:37:03 <PhilA> olyerickson: an option for GR is having a separate location of the RDF info
18:37:14 <sandro> q-
18:37:40 <PhilA> olyerickson: If I add my company info into the CD then it would be nice if the CD made an RDF file available that I could then add to my site
18:37:49 <PhilA> bhyland: Love that suggestion
18:38:08 <PhilA> bhyland: It's a Foafomatic tool - great
18:38:26 <George_> me thinks that's what BartvanLeeuwen meant in the first place, + the idea that callimachus could/should also serve as a RDFa template for those that can/will publish that
18:38:35 <PhilA> bhyland: You get something back for your effort
18:38:41 <BartvanLeeuwen> George_, ack
18:38:45 <PhilA> ack DeirdreLee
18:38:46 <olyerickson> ;)
18:39:17 <PhilA> DeirdreLee: It seems the CD seems to be taking a centralised approach. We want people to put theire data out there and then third party tools can use it
18:39:29 <PhilA> DeirdreLee: And the CD is a third party tool in this context
18:39:46 <sandro> q+ to rebut that
18:39:59 <George_> otherwise we'll pull it from dbpedia :)
18:40:14 <sandro> q-
18:40:16 <PhilA> bhyland: Yep, think distributed, think linked data
18:40:28 <sandro> q+
18:40:55 <sandro> q-
18:40:57 <PhilA> bhyland: summarises what she's taken down so far (and Sandro reminds her he's on the q)
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18:41:52 <t_gheen> Topic: Linked Data Cookbook
18:42:42 <boris> http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/Linked_Data_Cookbook
18:43:24 <PhilA> bhyland: It uses a linking gov data chapter I wrote from last November
18:43:36 <PhilA> ... we got permission to keep the copyright
18:43:45 <PhilA> ... some of it prob belongs in the best practices
18:44:01 <PhilA> ... useful if you've had a chance to review it of course
18:44:30 <PhilA> boris: The content looks the same as the BP working draft - is it not the same?
18:45:00 <PhilA> cygri: Refers to the charter...
18:45:14 <cygri> The group will produce a collection of advice on smaller, more specific issues, where known solutions exist to problems collected for the Community Directory. This document is to be published as a Working Group Note, or website, rather than a Recommendation. It may, instead, become part of the Community Directory site.
18:46:22 <BenediktKaempgen> +q
18:46:57 <PhilA> BenediktKaempgen: We have been talking about the BP as a static document and it shouldn't be too specific as it will go out of date. The cookbook is more of a live document/resource
18:47:15 <PhilA> BartvanLeeuwen: I see it as a more specific document and yes, a living one
18:47:24 <George_> ack BenediktKaempgen 
18:47:38 <DeirdreLee> q+
18:47:52 <PhilA> BenediktKaempgen: For example, a list of the current, most important vocabularies - that's a useful start for individuals
18:48:06 <George_> BenediktKaempgen: posits list of vocabs as example of 'smaller more specific'
18:48:07 <sandro> how about: when to use RDF/XML vs Turtle vs RDFa vs SPARQL  ?
18:48:11 <PhilA> ... so the criteria go in the BP doc, ones that meeti the crierta go in the cookbook
18:48:16 <PhilA> ack DeirdreLee
18:48:28 <PhilA> DeirdreLee: What's the government element of the cookbook?
18:48:30 <sandro> q+
18:48:32 <George_> DeirdreLee: what's the Gov angle?
18:48:52 <PhilA> DeirdreLee: It seems as if it could cover life sciences etc. ...
18:49:10 <PhilA> bhyland: There is a lot of overlap and may overlap the Linked Data Platform WG too
18:49:48 <PhilA> bh: I write the various entries with gov in mind even though things can be used elsewhere too
18:50:20 <PhilA> bh: 80%+ can apply to any LD project, yes - but people from gov will gravitate to it on w3.org
18:50:52 <George_> q?
18:51:20 <GofranShukair> Sorry ..I have to go ..bye everyone see you tomorrow
18:51:30 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-vocab-pub/
18:51:46 <PhilA> ack sandro
18:52:14 <sandro> http://answers.semanticweb.com/
18:52:25 <PhilA> sandro: I picture the cookbook as an FAQ, stak overflow type thing
18:52:58 <PhilA> sandro: There are 30-40 questions that gov people will ask when asked to consider implementing LD
18:53:27 <PhilA> bhyland: Mike_Pendleton gave me a bunch of questions when we began working with the EPA - yes, that makes sense
18:53:28 <cygri> +1 to sandro. that made sense to me.
18:53:42 <PhilA> s/stak/stack/
18:54:06 <PhilA> bh: Thanks for the feedback - that helps me see what needs to be done
18:54:17 <George_> q?
18:54:22 <cygri> q+
18:54:24 <olyerickson> +1 to stack overflow-like functionality (but that's not free anymore)
18:54:55 <PhilA> cygri: So how can we collect those questions?
18:54:57 <olyerickson> @bhyland I have to sign off now...apologies. Have a great day, everyone!
18:55:05 <Zakim> -olyerickson
18:55:09 <George_> ack cygri 
18:55:11 <olyerickson> olyerickson has left #GLD
18:55:38 <t_gheen> ACTION: bhyland gather top 30-40 questions for the FAQ
18:55:38 <trackbot> Created ACTION-36 - Gather top 30-40 questions for the FAQ [on Bernadette Hyland - due 2012-02-01].
18:55:39 <PhilA> bhyland: dare I suggest an action item to collect the questions
18:56:28 <cygri> mhausenblas, i'm not in charge of the agenda, but it says we stop at 8
18:56:54 <Zakim> +rreck
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18:57:39 <sandro> list of stackoverflow clones.    we could install an instance of one of these....   http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/2267/stack-overflow-clones
18:58:09 <cygri> sandro, why? answers.semanticweb.com is already there. don't fragment
18:58:30 <BartvanLeeuwen> cygri, +1
18:58:35 <PhilA> bhyland: Considers the day, whether we have achieved our targets
18:59:05 <PhilA> bhyland: reviews tomorrow's agenda
18:59:19 <sandro> cygri, not sure, just brainstorming.      are there tags there we can use to help get GLD folks started in the right direction there?
18:59:48 <PhilA> bhyland: anyone not here tomorrow? t_gheen has to meet someone very senior in the West Wing
18:59:55 <cygri> sandro, not really. it's for asking questions and getting them answered, not really for reading old answers
18:59:57 <rreck> yes. i have posted the slides
19:00:15 <PhilA> bhyland: We'll talk about stability tomorrow
19:01:06 <PhilA> PhilA: Anne W might want to look at the outcome from the workshop on stability held last month http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/12/dnap-workshop/notes.html
19:01:16 <George_> cygri: more DCAT tomorrow
19:01:17 <PhilA> cygri: Would like to talk about DCAT
19:01:21 <George_> +1 cygri 
19:01:27 <PhilA> +1 on DCAT as the hope is to resolve to go to FPWD
19:01:53 <boris> http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/F2F2#Agenda
19:02:00 <George_> q?
19:02:36 <George_> +1 more ADMS tomorrow morning too
19:02:52 <PhilA> Current static version of DCAT is at https://www.w3.org/2011/gld/group/WD-DCAT-20120106.html
19:03:42 <George_> agreed
19:03:51 <George_> with a mandate!
19:05:49 <DeirdreLee> Interoperability Solutions for European Public Administrations http://ec.europa.eu/isa/
19:06:00 <bhyland> bhyland has joined #gld
19:06:15 <DeirdreLee> Join up https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/
19:07:00 <PhilA> Thanks all round
19:07:06 <PhilA> Meeting adjourned
19:07:16 <Zakim> -sandro.a
19:07:21 <Zakim> -galway
19:07:28 <Zakim> -rreck
19:07:34 <SpyrosKotoulas> SpyrosKotoulas has left #gld
19:07:36 <Zakim> -Washington
19:07:39 <Zakim> -GeraldSteeman
19:08:16 <bhyland> ping
19:08:41 <bhyland> is someone in Galway publishing the minutes for today??
19:08:58 <George_> RRSAgent, set logs world-visible
19:09:18 <George_> RRSAgent, generate minutes
19:09:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/25-gld-minutes.html George_
19:10:08 <PhilA> Wiki is up to date, sandro
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