EOWG 04 Mar 2011


  1. WCAG 2 at a Glance - revisiting 4.1
  2. [Draft February 2011 Revision] WAI Site Map - discuss Subpages for discussion listed in WAI Website IA Notes
  3. Promoting new material throughout March - promo for discussion


Shawn, Sharron, Sandi, Sylvie, Shadi(secondpart), Jennifer, Emmanuelle, Wayne
Helle, Ian, Suzette, Liam
Shawn Henry


<scribe> Scribe: Sharron

WCAG 2 at a Glance Revisited

Shawn: WCAG had some comments, most of which we had addressed. However one is still unresolved 4.1 Linked from the agenda
... We had suggested Maximize compatability with different technologies. WCAG members thought it was too vague, easily misunderstood. Brainstorming resulted in the list you see of things that fit on the card (reads)

Sharron: Like "Maximize compatibility with browsers and user tools."

Jennifer: works for me

Wayne: Ok

Sandi: Not fond of any of them to be honest. Sounds like it is totally incumbent upon developer to ensure compatibility.

zakim: aabb is Emmanuelle

Shawn: Some things I liked about the ..."by using good coding"

Jennifer: Yes, I thought of that. You could swap it around to say Use good coding to maximize. Might cut a few letters.

Shawn: Goal is not to critique WCAG or come up with new approaches. We want people to get general idea and know where to get more.

Jennifer: How would WCAG feel about that wording?

<sinarmaya> I like mention "assistive technologies" becasue there are people that don't know that this exist.

Shawn: I think they would be fine with it, their concern was with 'technologies'
... I would like a new version next week for online. But since we are thinking of printing several hundreds of thousands, I want to be sure we can live with it.

Wayne: A developer always has to do work arounds for real world situation. Given that, the developer has done the job if coding for maximum compatibility.

Shawn: Take this to WCAG folks with the "tools" version unless there is any objection.

WAI site map

Shawn: Worked on it at the Face-to-Face. Would like to get that posted next week
... wanted to check in since it has sat a while and we have members who have not yet weighed in on it.
... Let's get through these pages today and see if you have any concerns, big things to fix in the content of the sub pages.
... Wayne, did you have a chance to look before the meeting?

Wayne: Yes I did and I have always liked the idea of having a site map.

Shawn: We are particularly interested in the new labels within the navigation and what you thought of that

Wayne: I liked having the categories and thought they were pretty accurately representative.

Sylvie: To look at the site map, I would not have looked for the translation page in the policy / participation pages.
... looking for translations, I don't know where to ook.

<sinarmaya> I like the content distribution, but I don't like the name "site map" because for me this is more like a contents table.

Shawn: It should be on every single page and so I will put it on the Home page
... then it will be the very first link. Thanks for catching that.

Wayne: How does a person get to there from here?

Shawn: I will place it and you can see when you refresh.

<sylvie> ok, great!

<shawn> I think the navigation item "Inclusive Design" does not tell me what is inside, and does not draw me to selecting it. I think it may need to be a verb to match the other navigation items? Like "Designing Inclusively" -- sounds horrible but think you need a different approach

Shawn: Within "Inclusive Design" comment says that this title does not draw a person in. Something more active "Designing INclusively"?

Jennifer: Designing for all

Sandi: Inclusion makes more sense that "for all" since the latter is impossible.
... universal design, inclusive design and design for all are interchangable

Shawn: "Design for All" will bring up different conotations for Europeans than others.
... inclusive design is a term used more frequently in Europe as well

Sharron: yes, universal design is what you hear in the US

Wayne: It is a mushy term. And personally I would be thrilled to be included.

<sinarmaya> what about: design for diversity ? ;-)

<shawn> Designing for All, Design for Inclusion, Designing for Inclusion

Shawn: Think about the overlap with mobile and aging etc. What approach would encourage people to explore further to find the sub pages?

Jennifer: One of the resons I advocate for using Design for "All" is that it is broad enough term to include things we may not have anticipated.

<sinarmaya> In this perspective Design for all is more "inclusive" and atractive for mobile developers and so on.

Shawn: If I come here and I am not sold on accessibility, inclusion, diversity...but I see Design for All and I want to know more. Would that encourage people to follow?

Sharron: Yes

Jennifer: It seems so to me but I am so close to it...?

Shawn: I did informal usability testing in years past. We could put up a beta version and test it.

Jennifer: I would vote for that if it is workable from a staff perspective.

Shawn: While we don't want to change navigation too often, if we make it a broad test, it may be OK.

Wayne: it might even be fun

Jennifer: A good way to be communicating out.

Wayne: I think we have two dimensions here. Do we want to be recognized by keyword? And do we want to be recognized by a sensitivity that takes us out of the keyword?
... I skip sites that say universal design because there is a kind of religious aspect to it.

Shawn: OK, the next point is that under planning and policy, we don't actually provide policy resources.

Sandi: I have just been going with it. I deal with clients and have found that I explain this in entirely different terms.
... still struggling with structure, content and way it is expressed.
... we are talking about policy makers but this could be misleading.

Sharron: But not just for government policy makers. There are business and organizations that need ploicy. I have recently referred a large company to the resources here, so I know they exist.

Shawn: But there are some things that we will not do in relaion to policy.

Jennifer: A good compromise that will help manage expectations will be useful and wise.

Shawn: We address that with the presentations and tutorials

Sandi: May I go back? A suggestion about Inclusive Design a broader title may be "Design and Inclusion"

Sharron: Agree that it could be the same draw as Design for All

Shawn: Will upload all these suggestions after the meeting for your review.
... anything else on overall site map?

Wayne: Excellent that you have finally gotten to this, we've needed it for a long time.

Shawn: Let's jump into individual sub pages...http://www.w3.org/WAI/redesign/2011/IAnotes.html#discuss
... first is Participating in WAI. and within is another link to "Participating in WAI" does it become one page? do we rename the subpage?

<sinarmaya> I think that rename the subpage will be better, because is too much information to put in the same page

Shawn: let's table this discussion and move to the next.

Jennifer: Maybe we can help you do that on the list

Shawn: Let's go to Getting Started with Web Accessibility
... any comments?
... this "Introduction to Web Accessibility" was great when we produced it in 2005. What do we think of now? useful?

All: no comment

Shawn: Next is "Finding yu WAI'

Sharron: Excellent resource, very much needed.

Shawn: We noted the necessity and the maintenance issues the last time we spoke about it.
... one of the key things is the fact that we are able to tell people "Hey look, we have new resources, things you don't even know about..." How should we do that?

Jennifer: Just for the record, I ahve looked at them but had no great conflicts with any of them.

Shawn: But this one is new and a new approach.

Sandi: To me there is a disconnect between the title and the intro paragraph. It is not about navigating but about new resources.

Shawn: Would a sub-title help?

Sandi: Is there a way to split up the first section so it seques and introduces the fact that there is new content as a secondary objective?

Jennifer: Yes, it would be a simple thing to introduce the new content with a bit more introduction.

Shadi: I want to agree with the point that I would not look for new resources in a section called finding you WAI

Jennifer: I like the page title and think it lightens the mood which is refreshing for us.

<shadi> [think title is narrower than content]

Jennifer: I like the idea of a segue to the new content.

Shawn: Main place that this get pointed to is from find new resources.
... I agree with both sides. Would like to retain the cleverness of the title but understand the possible ambiguity.

Jennifer: Subtitle of "Highlighting New resources," or something.

Wayne: After the dash, the direction splits in two. Seems like you need a guide to get around it. At that point, you've got the person drawn in and need to alert them to the different directions it will go.

Shadi: Clarify where it links from?

Shawn: The link is "discover new resources..." in the current draft.

Shadi: But that only refers to the first section. Would I click on a link called "Finding your WAI" if I was looking for how to navigate?
... I like the concept of pointing to new resources, but is it the same audience as the how to get around audience?

Shawn: I wonder if there is a how to get around audience.
... maybe we explicitly say we keep the site map up to date and also encourage them to look around and find the cool stuff that they may not have been aware of.

Jennifer: I think a sub-title is the most simple way to resolve. The page title is catchy and inviting. The page can do both. Serve as a guide to the site map as well as a pointer to new resources.

Shawn: OK, this is giving me some good ideas.

Jennifer; If we tweet it alot, it increases the chance of getting feedback both negative and positive.

Shawn: We have several ways to indicate draft status from big and bold leading in to a note at the bottom.
... additional thoughts on this page? Thanks for perspectives, look for the new draft and please comment.
... any comments on other sub-pages?

Sharron: the "Participatin in WAI" discussion will be continued in the list?

<shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/redesign/2011/about-links2010.html

Shawn: Let's try to figure it out now
... question is to combine the two pages that are named the same? or renam one of them?

Sharron: what about "Involvement with WAI"

<sinarmaya> +1 for rename

Shawn: Previous suggestions are "Collaborating with," Working with" Contributing to"
... had talked about having sub page called Get Involved with WAI

Sharron: Yes that seems to fit nicely

Jennifer: works for me

Shawn: any other perspectives?
... we have had this page forever so I wonder if we might confuse people

Sharron: So what if you swap it, use "getting Involved" as the umbrella page?

Jennifer: Leave it editor's discretion - whatever is easier.

Shawn: "What is reaction to "Getting Involved with WAI"

Jennifer: I like it

<sylvie> +1

Jennifer: I like "Joining.." but i guess it sounds like there are fees

Sharon: +1

Shadi: +1

<Sandi> +1

<shadi> i like it

Promoting new material in March

Shawn: Meeting next week depends on availability
... please update what you ahve in the survey. If people are not available we may not meet.

<sinarmaya> I have concerns about the "ly" contraction. Well, is not me, is Tim Bernes-Lee who maked a comment in twitter about that.

Shawn: we had talked about setting up bit.ly links to send around

Sandi: I would very much like people to promote a consistant message at the March conferences. Would like comments of what is currently submitted.

Shawn: What would you find most useful to have next week?

Jennifer: would like the bit.ly links

Sharron: Emmanuelle says there are objections from TBL - what are those?

<sylvie> what does bit.ly links mean?

<sinarmaya> the question is only that the .ly are in severs in Lybia ;-)

Sharron: it is a method to shorten links into a very short link.

Emmanuelle: the servers are in Libya. use a different contraction that is not dependent on that.
... use one not so politically charged

<sylvie> ok, I did not know that tweet links were called such

Jennifer: doesn't matter, there is one from Google, tinyURL, etc
... also need to keep it well under 140 characters for RTing and comments

Shawn: what else is needed?

Sharron: WCAG at a Glance

<sylvie> good news! thanks, Shadi!

<shadi> no, thank you!

Jennifer: has anyone asked "Fix the Web" folks to link to our "Contacting Organizations..." page?

Sandi: I know them and try to advise them somewhat. What I have done is a full operational review to highlight the issues. I will introduce and recommend closer relations with WAI.

Jennifer: I feel like the contacting page is one that needs to be promoted.

Sandi: In real terms their tangible, measurable results are not there yet.

Jennifer: thanks Sandi for your time on it, I have many concerns about it.

Shawn: Thanks everyone, have agreat weekend, update availability. bye

<shawn> sharron - do you want sylvie to clean up minutes this week?

sure, that would be great thanks!

<shawn> ok i'll email her

Summary of Action Items

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Default Present: Shawn, sharron, Sandi, +1.562.256.aaaa, Wayne, sylvie, Jennifer, +1.662.028.aabb, Emmanuelle, shadi, [IPcaller], +569029aacc
Present: Shawn Sharron Sandi Sylvie Shadi(secondpart) Jennifer Emmanuelle Wayne
Regrets: Helle Ian Suzette Liam
Got date from IRC log name: 04 Mar 2011
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2011/03/04-eo-minutes.html
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