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Chatlog 2011-11-17
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14:28:29 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa 14:28:29 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/11/17-rdfa-irc 14:28:31 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 14:28:31 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdfa 14:28:33 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332 14:28:33 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 32 minutes 14:28:34 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Web Applications Working Group Teleconference 14:28:34 <trackbot> Date: 17 November 2011 14:28:41 <ivan> Chair: Ivan 14:28:53 <ivan> Regrets: Manu, Steven 14:29:13 <tomayac> sorry, i can only attend via IRC today 14:29:22 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda, Nov 17, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Nov/0112.html 14:29:32 <ivan> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Nov/0112.html agenda call 14:29:49 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes 14:29:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/17-rdfa-minutes.html ivan 14:37:01 <MacTed> MacTed has joined #rdfa 14:39:42 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa 14:56:47 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip 14:56:47 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made 14:56:48 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started 14:56:49 <Zakim> +Ivan 14:58:20 <Zakim> +??P28 14:58:30 <ShaneM> zakim, I am ??P28 14:58:30 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it 14:59:54 <Zakim> +??P5 15:00:03 <gkellogg> zakim, I am ??P5 15:00:12 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it 15:00:27 <ivan> scribe: Gregg 15:00:32 <ivan> scribenick: gkellogg 15:01:15 <Zakim> +scor 15:01:22 <scor> scor has joined #rdfa 15:01:38 <Zakim> +[OpenLink] 15:01:55 <scor> zakim, who is on the phone? 15:01:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ivan, ShaneM, gkellogg, scor, [OpenLink] 15:01:59 <MacTed> Zakim, [OpenLink] is OpenLink_Software 15:01:59 <MacTed> zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me 15:02:07 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software; got it 15:02:09 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it 15:02:19 <ivan> Topic: admin 15:02:32 <ivan> -> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/meetings/2011-11-03 last meeting's minutes 15:02:52 <Zakim> +??P3 15:03:00 <Zakim> +niklasl; got it 15:03:16 <gkellogg> Minutes accepted 15:03:45 <gkellogg> Next Thursday's meeting would be on Thanksgiving in the U.S. 15:04:00 <gkellogg> // Propose to cancel next meeting. 15:04:03 <MacTed> s/http:\/\/www.w3.org\/2010\/02\/rdfa\/meetings\/2011-11-03/http:\/\/www.w3.org\/2010\/02\/rdfa\/meetings\/2011-11-10/ 15:04:13 <MacTed> (that *might* be escaped properly) 15:04:45 <gkellogg> On to "low-hanging" fruit 15:04:56 <ivan> Topic: Low hanging fruits 15:05:03 <ivan> ISSUE-97? 15:05:03 <trackbot> ISSUE-97 -- Determine if datetime should be supported in HTML5 -- open 15:05:03 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/97 15:05:42 <gkellogg> ivan: had mailing list discussion and there seems general agreement that it should be accepted. 15:05:58 <gkellogg> … some details to settle, being specific XSD datatypes to use. 15:06:13 <gkellogg> … dateTime, time, date, gYear, …, duration 15:06:33 <gkellogg> … My proposal to keep to HTML5 micro syntax doc: dateTime, date, time. 15:06:34 <ivan> ack niklasl 15:06:38 <MacTed> q+ 15:06:51 <gkellogg> niklasl: agree that HTML5 spec should dictate allowed values. 15:07:09 <gkellogg> … not sure that the detail prevents using other XSD types 15:07:30 <ivan> ack MacTed 15:07:32 <gkellogg> … all types are possible to unambiguously match. We could do this if HTML5 allows for it. 15:07:59 <gkellogg> MacTed: looking at the issue, it seems that TimeZones are catered for. If not, this must be addressed. 15:08:12 <tomayac> +1 to niklasl. let's have html5 dictate the allowed values. 15:08:13 <gkellogg> ivan: timezones are supported. 15:08:21 <gkellogg> … includes full microsyntax 15:08:25 <gkellogg> q+ 15:08:27 <MacTed> q- 15:08:31 <ivan> ack gkellogg 15:10:36 <gkellogg> gkellogg: HTML5 iso a moving target, and we should indicate willingness to follow. 15:11:01 <gkellogg> ivan: can make a proposal to add date, dateTime and date today, but intention is to follow the HTML5 spec. 15:11:16 <MacTed> s/date today/time today/ 15:11:35 <ivan> PROPOSAL: HTML5+RDFa will add the time element with date, time, and dateTime, and will also express the intention to follow the time element discussion for subsequent datatypes 15:11:49 <gkellogg> +1 15:11:49 <Niklas Lindström> +1 15:11:50 <ivan> +1 15:11:50 <tomayac> +1 15:11:53 <scor> +1 15:11:54 <ShaneM> +1 15:11:56 <MacTed> +1 15:12:02 <ivan> RESOLVED: HTML5+RDFa will add the time element with date, time, and dateTime, and will also express the intention to follow the time element discussion for subsequent datatypes 15:12:39 <gkellogg> ivan: side remark from jeni: we did say that if the lexical content does not match any datatype, then generate a plain literal. 15:12:53 <gkellogg> … however, it should ignore language setting. 15:12:54 <gkellogg> q+ 15:13:01 <ivan> ack gkellogg 15:13:09 <ShaneM> q+ to discuss language 15:13:20 <Niklas Lindström> q+ 15:13:56 <ivan> ack ShaneM 15:13:56 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to discuss language 15:14:00 <gkellogg> gkellogg: also includes text content if there is no @datetime attribute. 15:14:12 <gkellogg> shanem: concerned about "plethora" of special cases. 15:14:31 <gkellogg> … @about on root element is another example, and issues with <head> and <body> 15:15:11 <gkellogg> … including text content, otherwise it doesn't match gYear, ... 15:15:35 <gkellogg> … another example of something to keep track of, also the fact that there's no language. 15:15:51 <gkellogg> ivan: understand concern, but it generates better triples. 15:16:19 <gkellogg> … for element content, we always say that literals that we generate keep whitespace. We should maintain the general rule. 15:16:53 <gkellogg> … It may mean that some patterns aren't matched, but they can be constructed to match. 15:17:07 <gkellogg> niklasl: we don't normalize? (no we don't) 15:17:15 <ivan> q? 15:17:17 <ivan> ack niklasl 15:17:24 <Niklas Lindström> "Thu, 17 Nov 2011 15:13:39 GMT" 15:17:27 <gkellogg> … agree with language. 15:17:44 <gkellogg> ivan: this does not follow micro syntax. 15:18:02 <gkellogg> … would be a string (plain literal) with no language tag 15:18:23 <ShaneM> q+ to get a clarification on element content 15:18:41 <gkellogg> niklasl: don't think things are as bad as they seem, as we are making things helpful for authors. 15:18:43 <ivan> ack ShaneM 15:18:44 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to get a clarification on element content 15:18:58 <gkellogg> shanem: might be confused about earlier +1 15:19:29 <gkellogg> … thought we were agreeing on @datetime as dateTime, …. Otherwise no triple. 15:19:55 <gkellogg> ivan: we said in case string does not match any datatypes we put out a plain literal with the content. 15:20:16 <gkellogg> … it is the property plus the value as a plain literal without language. 15:20:26 <gkellogg> … no XSD datatype 15:21:08 <gkellogg> shanem: disagree with that, if it doesn't match the pattern, it should get language. 15:21:26 <ShaneM> <time property="my:time">its time to fly</time> 15:21:39 <gkellogg> ivan: looking at nilasl's example, it is definitely in english. 15:22:17 <ivan> PROPOSAL: if the datetime value does not match a datatype, it is put out as a plain literal, with possible language tag 15:22:23 <gkellogg> +1 15:22:24 <ShaneM> +1 15:22:24 <scor> +1 15:22:26 <ivan> +1 15:22:26 <Niklas Lindström> +1 15:22:34 <MacTed> +1 15:22:36 <ivan> RESOLVED: if the datetime value does not match a datatype, it is put out as a plain literal, with possible language tag 15:22:36 <ShaneM> re: whitespace, this is what the spec says now: A conforming RDFa Processor must preserve white space in both plain literals and XML literals. However, it may be the case that the architecture in which a processor operates has made changes to the white space in a document before that document ever reaches the RDFa Processor (e.g., [XMLSCHEMA-1] processors are permitted to 'normalize' white space in attribute values - see section 3.1.4). To ensure maximum con 15:22:43 <gkellogg> gkellogg: microdata-RDF should do the same. 15:22:57 <gkellogg> ivan: manu must put this in the HTML5 document. 15:23:22 <gkellogg> ACTION: fold into HTML5 document anything relevant from these minutes 15:23:22 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - fold 15:23:25 <ivan> ISSUE-113? 15:23:25 <trackbot> ISSUE-113 -- Add the value attribute of the HTML data element as a possible literal target for property -- open 15:23:25 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/113 15:24:06 <gkellogg> ivan: value of @value attribute would become a literal target. Similar to @datetime, it is a moving target. 15:24:08 <ShaneM> can datatype effect the interpretation of @value on data ? 15:24:29 <gkellogg> … don't think we should try to guess datatype, must be added specifically. 15:24:33 <Niklas Lindström> q+ 15:24:37 <ivan> ack niklasl 15:25:09 <gkellogg> niklasl: it might be that the value is intended to convey a "machine readable" value, so perhaps we should guess datatype. 15:25:32 <gkellogg> ivan: we have to rely on what we know today. Based on HTML5 document, we should not go down the road to guessing datatype. 15:25:51 <gkellogg> … language tags issue comes up again. 15:26:13 <gkellogg> shanem: must be included, there's too much unknown. 15:26:14 <gkellogg> q+ 15:26:19 <ivan> ack gkellogg 15:26:37 <ShaneM> I agree that the language should be preserved for @value on data 15:27:18 <Niklas Lindström> .. or a number 15:27:34 <ivan> q+ 15:28:02 <ivan> ack ivan 15:28:28 <gkellogg> ivan: I don't think we should go down the route to try to guessing the intention of the author. 15:28:29 <ShaneM> q+ to say that we can't know what @value means 15:28:55 <Niklas Lindström> q+ 15:29:00 <gkellogg> … The @datetime is clearly there to describe time, for data we have no idea what it is for. It may create situations where the guess is wrong and do more harm than good. 15:29:10 <ivan> ack ShaneM 15:29:10 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to say that we can't know what @value means 15:29:14 <gkellogg> … if author really wants datatypes, author should put it there. 15:29:22 <ShaneM> <data xml:lang='lt' value='veni, vidi, vici' /> 15:29:53 <ivan> ack niklasl 15:29:53 <gkellogg> shanem: data has no semantics, its "data". Even if I could pattern match it, it could be wrong. 15:30:17 <gkellogg> nilasl: it's too early for us to do anything based on maturity of HTML5 spec. 15:30:26 <MacTed> q+ 15:30:33 <gkellogg> … it's called "data" as it's clearly intended for machine readable datatypes. 15:30:44 <ivan> ack MacTed 15:30:45 <gkellogg> … otherwise, it's just an alias for <span>. 15:31:05 <gkellogg> shanem: how can you be sure of intended datatype? 15:31:28 <ivan> q+ 15:32:24 <gkellogg> shanem: <time> is clear, but <data> is not. 15:32:34 <gkellogg> … too many possibilities. 15:32:36 <ivan> ack ivan 15:33:14 <gkellogg> ivan: I could say that I might intuit the language of a string and add the language to the literal. That's not our job. 15:33:47 <gkellogg> ivan: if HTML5 comes up with a micro syntax, we can look at again. Until then, we should not try to guess it. 15:35:22 <gkellogg> niklasl: revisit if the HTML5 spec becomes more clear. 15:35:54 <ivan> PROPOSAL: Accept a <data> element with the @value attribute generating a plain literal with language retained; the HTML5+RDFa document will follow possible evolution of that element defintion for datatypes 15:36:01 <Niklas Lindström> +1 15:36:07 <scor> +1 15:36:10 <gkellogg> +1 15:36:10 <MacTed> +1 15:36:10 <tomayac> +1 15:36:13 <ivan> +1 15:36:17 <ShaneM> +1 15:36:23 <ivan> RESOLVED: Accept a <data> element with the @value attribute generating a plain literal with language retained; the HTML5+RDFa document will follow possible evolution of that element defintion for datatypes 15:36:27 <scor> s/defintion/definition 15:36:59 <gkellogg> ACTION: manu1 to resolve to implement 97 and 113 15:36:59 <trackbot> Created ACTION-104 - Resolve to implement 97 and 113 [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-11-24]. 15:37:04 <ivan> ISSUE-116? 15:37:04 <trackbot> ISSUE-116 -- Consider owl terms for vocab expansion -- open 15:37:04 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/116 15:37:45 <gkellogg> issue: this would mean adding to the current set of terms owl:equivalentProperty and owl:equivalentClass. 15:37:45 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-120 - This would mean adding to the current set of terms owl:equivalentProperty and owl:equivalentClass. ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/120/edit . 15:38:20 <gkellogg> gkellogg: didn't mean to create an issue, will remove it :( 15:38:57 <gkellogg> q+ 15:38:57 <ivan> PROPOSED: add owl:equivalentProperty and owl:equivalentClass to the set of terms for the vocab expansion 15:39:50 <ivan> ack gkellogg 15:40:13 <gkellogg> gkellogg: concerned that it adds a greater burden if we don't replace rdfs:subClassOf, etc. 15:40:57 <gkellogg> ivan: we can't remove the others. 15:41:47 <gkellogg> niklasl: OWL does build on RDFS. 15:41:53 <ivan> +1 15:41:55 <Niklas Lindström> +1 15:41:57 <gkellogg> +1 15:42:02 <ShaneM> +1 15:42:11 <ivan> RESOLVED: add owl:equivalentProperty and owl:equivalentClass to the set of terms for the vocab expansion 15:42:12 <tomayac> n/a 15:42:26 <gkellogg> ivan: already made a version on the core document, and will CVS commit it. 15:42:53 <gkellogg> … instead of referring to RDFS entailment, refer to OWL ruleset. 15:43:08 <gkellogg> q+ 15:43:14 <ivan> ack gkellogg 15:43:55 <gkellogg> gkellogg: need to figure out how to deal with optional tests for these issues. 15:44:15 <gkellogg> shanem: the whole is option, implement all or none. 15:44:30 <ivan> ISSUE-118? 15:44:30 <trackbot> ISSUE-118 -- Should we consider allowing the '/' character in a term -- open 15:44:30 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/118 15:45:13 <gkellogg> ivan: "term" defined as NCNAME, meaning that it must begin with a apha char and can't have a '/'. 15:45:19 <gkellogg> s/apha/alpha/ 15:45:21 <ShaneM> NCTERM is a simple term definintion that does not allow a colon 15:45:23 <ShaneM> NC == No Colon 15:45:46 <gkellogg> ivan: propose to allow both a number as a first character and a '/' 15:45:58 <gkellogg> shanem: can have a number with NCNAME, just not an ID. 15:46:03 <ShaneM> vocab=foo 15:46:11 <ShaneM> property='shane' 15:46:17 <ShaneM> vocab="foo#' 15:46:24 <ShaneM> foo#shane 15:46:30 <ShaneM> foo#123shane 15:46:54 <gkellogg> shanem: can't dereference foo:123shane 15:47:02 <gkellogg> s/:/#/ 15:47:07 <Niklas Lindström> q+ 15:47:13 <gkellogg> ivan: so issue is, can we allow a '/' 15:47:13 <ivan> ack niklasl 15:47:24 <gkellogg> niklasl: but not as the first character 15:47:59 <gkellogg> … can an identifier (NCNAME) begin with a '/'? 15:48:04 <gkellogg> shanem: can't have one at all. 15:48:09 <Niklas Lindström> .. fragment identifer 15:48:17 <gkellogg> ivan: we're talking about a term which is concatenated. 15:48:33 <Niklas Lindström> .. vocab="foo#term-" 15:48:42 <gkellogg> … vocab="foo", term="/shane" get "foo/shane". 15:48:57 <gkellogg> … don't see this as an important use case, but don't see why it should be restricted. 15:49:01 <ShaneM> I have no objection to allowing a slash, but not as the first character....q+ to talk about restrictions 15:50:02 <gkellogg> shanem: we don't have ambiguity now because of datatype restrictions. We only use terms with absURI or CURIE. 15:50:38 <gkellogg> niklasl: thinking about problems with JSON-LD which may come up here in RDFa. 15:50:43 <ivan> PROPOSAL: allow '/' character to appear in a term, except for the first character 15:50:55 <Niklas Lindström> +1 15:50:58 <ivan> +1 15:51:00 <gkellogg> +1 15:51:02 <scor> +1 15:51:04 <tomayac> +1 15:51:14 <MacTed> +2 15:51:20 <ivan> RESOLVED: allow '/' character to appear in a term, except for the first character 15:51:20 <ShaneM> +1 15:51:24 <MacTed> s/2/1/ 15:51:25 <MacTed> :-) 15:51:44 <gkellogg> ivan: will commit changes on document with OWL terms. Shane, can you make this change? 15:52:13 <gkellogg> ivan: high-hanging fruit ... 15:52:18 <ivan> Topic: link relations 15:52:23 <ivan> ISSUE-108? 15:52:23 <trackbot> ISSUE-108 -- Refine/deprecate Link relations for the RDFa 1.1 Default Profile. -- open 15:52:23 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/108 15:52:46 <gkellogg> ivan: we had the discussion a few weeks ago and thought we had resolved it. 15:53:27 <gkellogg> … IANA seemed reasonable, since then, information is that HTML5 decided not to use it, but instead they rely on the Microformat Wiki. 15:53:44 <gkellogg> … this makes the list changeable and relatively uncontrolled. 15:53:49 <gkellogg> q+ 15:54:15 <ivan> ack gkellogg 15:54:17 <gkellogg> … must revisit decision. My feeling is to drop link relations altogether. 15:55:17 <gkellogg> gkellogg: I'd drop them too. 15:55:18 <Niklas Lindström> q+ 15:55:50 <gkellogg> shanem: I don't appreciate the concern about the potential difference between HTML5's and our own. We should continue to use our existing definitions. 15:56:07 <ivan> ack niklasl 15:56:09 <gkellogg> … Wiki and IANA solve a non-problem. 15:56:25 <gkellogg> niklasl: worried about creative commons use of license. 15:56:59 <gkellogg> ivan: we previously raised with ben, as people commonly use "cc:" prefix. (not too sure, though). 15:57:12 <gkellogg> … CC encourages the use of prefixes and CURIEs. 15:57:51 <gkellogg> ivan: can't push through a resolution now. 15:58:12 <gkellogg> … general sense is agreement, but shanem is not in favor of this. 15:58:28 <gkellogg> … can't push for a resolution at the top of the hour. 15:58:46 <gkellogg> niklasl: expressed questions on the mailing list. 15:58:55 <gkellogg> ivan: continue discussion on the mailing list. 15:59:38 <gkellogg> ivan: open issues, @href content model of URL 15:59:47 <gkellogg> … <head> and <body> issues. 15:59:59 <gkellogg> … replace @about with @resource in RDFa Lite 16:00:02 <gkellogg> … Link Relations. 16:00:34 <gkellogg> … These seem to be remaining issues. Suggest that we try to reach equilibrium on mailing list so that we can make an easy decision. 16:00:50 <gkellogg> … We should publish a draft in Dec. that resolves these issues. 16:01:13 <gkellogg> ivan: no meeting next week. 16:02:06 <Zakim> -gkellogg 16:02:08 <Zakim> -MacTed 16:02:10 <Zakim> -scor 16:02:12 <Zakim> -niklasl 16:02:16 <Zakim> -ShaneM 16:02:20 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended 16:02:26 <Zakim> Attendees were Ivan, ShaneM, gkellogg, scor, MacTed, niklasl 16:02:29 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes 16:02:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/17-rdfa-minutes.html ivan # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000291