Chatlog 2010-04-22

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13:39:51 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
13:39:51 <RRSAgent> logging to
13:42:37 <manu> trackbot, start meeting
13:42:39 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:42:41 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332
13:42:41 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 18 minutes
13:42:42 <trackbot> Meeting: RDFa Working Group Teleconference
13:42:42 <trackbot> Date: 22 April 2010
13:43:43 <manu> Agenda:
13:43:54 <manu> Chair: Manu
13:49:56 <manu> Regrets: MarkB, JeffS, BenA, MarkusG
13:58:20 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa
13:58:51 <Knud> Knud has joined #rdfa
13:59:19 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started
13:59:24 <RobW> RobW has joined #rdfa
13:59:25 <Zakim> +??P0
13:59:28 <manu> zakim, I am ??P0
13:59:28 <Zakim> +manu; got it
13:59:39 <Zakim> + +1.978.692.aaaa
14:00:07 <manu> Present: Ivan, Knud, Manu, RobW, Shane, Steven, Toby, Benjamin
14:00:09 <Zakim> + +03539149aabb
14:00:28 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
14:00:33 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:00:37 <Zakim> +Steven
14:00:47 <Zakim> +ShaneM
14:00:51 <Benjamin> Benjamin has joined #rdfa
14:00:59 <manu> zakim, aaaa is RobW
14:00:59 <Zakim> sorry, manu, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
14:01:11 <Zakim> +RobW; got it
14:01:25 <Zakim> +[MIT528]
14:01:51 <manu> zakim, who is on the call?
14:01:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see manu, RobW, +03539149aabb (muted), Steven, ShaneM, [MIT528] (muted)
14:01:54 <Zakim> + +49.631.205.7.aacc
14:02:10 <Steven> ack 035
14:02:11 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
14:02:11 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
14:02:12 <Zakim> +Ivan
14:02:24 <Zakim> + +0785583aadd
14:02:24 <manu> zakim, aacc is Benjamin
14:02:25 <Zakim> +Benjamin; got it
14:02:31 <manu> zakim, who is on the call?
14:02:31 <Zakim> On the phone I see manu, RobW, +03539149aabb (muted), Steven, ShaneM, [MIT528] (muted), Benjamin, Ivan, +0785583aadd
14:02:49 <manu> zakim, aabb is Knud
14:02:49 <Zakim> +Knud; got it
14:02:55 <manu> zakim, who is on the call?
14:02:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see manu, RobW, Knud (muted), Steven, ShaneM, [MIT528] (muted), Benjamin, Ivan, +0785583aadd
14:03:31 <manu> zakim, aadd is Toby
14:03:31 <Zakim> +Toby; got it
14:03:51 <manu> zakim, [MIT528] is Dongmei
14:03:51 <Zakim> +Dongmei; got it
14:03:58 <manu> zakim, who is on the call?
14:03:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see manu, RobW, Knud (muted), Steven, ShaneM, Dongmei (muted), Benjamin, Ivan, Toby
14:04:26 <manu> scribenick: RobW
14:04:41 <manu> Scribe: Robert
14:05:29 <RobW> manu: skipping action items today, will only cover when needed rather than every meeting.
14:05:32 <RobW> Topic: Facebook RDFa announcement
14:05:38 <RobW> manu: Facebook announced RDFa support in their Open Graph Protocol!
14:05:42 <Steven> Yay!
14:05:46 <Knud> whohoo
14:06:00 <manu> Facebook's Open Graph Protocol:
14:06:01 <Steven> q+
14:06:07 <ShaneM> It was actually covered on US National Public Radio this morning
14:06:09 <manu>
14:07:07 <tinkster> Do they use a proper RDFa parser, I wonder. e.g. does <span property="og:foobar">...</span> work identically to <meta>?
14:07:19 <RobW> manu: "Great News" -- Facebook seems to have adopted RDFa in their Open Graph Protocol, published yesterday,, calls out RDFa by name.  Several partners and content providers.
14:09:46 <ivan> q+
14:10:15 <Steven> q-
14:10:19 <manu> ack ivan
14:13:49 <ShaneM> q+ to ask a question about og
14:13:59 <ivan> q+
14:14:18 <manu> ack shaneM
14:14:18 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to ask a question about og
14:15:15 <manu> ack ivan
14:15:43 <manu> ACTION: Manu to talk to Thomas Roessler about Facebook announcement
14:15:43 <trackbot> Created ACTION-25 - Talk to Thomas Roessler about Facebook announcement [on Manu Sporny - due 2010-04-29].
14:16:11 <manu> ACTION: Manu to start discussion about RDFa with Facebook
14:16:11 <trackbot> Created ACTION-26 - Start discussion about RDFa with Facebook [on Manu Sporny - due 2010-04-29].
14:19:36 <manu> q+ to move on
14:19:49 <manu> ack manu
14:19:49 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to move on
14:20:10 <RobW> TOPIC: Raw triples via DOM API
14:20:29 <Benjamin>
14:20:45 <RobW> Benjamin: Report on some changes in last week
14:20:47 <Benjamin> this is the jsdoc Document
14:20:55 <Benjamin>
14:22:24 <RobW> Benjamin: Reduced hiearchy of resources, removed inner abstract nodes, leaving leaf class nodes which can be instantied via API
14:22:54 <Benjamin>
14:23:20 <RobW> Benjamin: Add vocabulary mapping for convenient access to URIs, e.g., shortcut for FOAF vocbulary
14:24:32 <RobW> Benjamin: Added RDFa object type, based on idea of Mark, JSON-like to access properties
14:24:46 <Benjamin> rdfaObject[] result in "foo"
14:25:19 <manu> var person = rdfa.extractObject("");
14:25:32 <manu> person[] == "Jane Doe";
14:26:29 <RobW> manu: Agrees (for the most part) to Benjamin's changes.  More disagreements with Mark, which we should discuss.
14:27:16 <Benjamin> Current version of the spec is:
14:27:36 <RobW> manu: Trying to make API as "native" to JS and other scripting languages as possible.
14:29:33 <ivan> q+
14:29:35 <RobW> manu: One disagreement is that Mark does not want to add raw triples. Mark wants object projection.  Raw triples gives more fundemental access for building on. 
14:29:37 <manu> ack ivan
14:29:39 <Knud> can't we have both raw triples and projection?
14:29:57 <Benjamin> that's what we did with RDFaObject
14:30:02 <tinkster> ivan++
14:30:46 <tinkster> If you can get at the triples, you can build objects that match your own data model from it; the inverse is not necessarily true.
14:31:00 <RobW> ivan: Want possibility to get raw triples.  We need to remmeber that RDFa is only one serialization of RDF.  There may be other approaches in addition, but no comment on these.
14:32:11 <RobW> manu: agrees with tinkster, that raw triples at lower level enables building other models on top of it
14:32:16 <ShaneM> +1 to both
14:32:49 <Knud> +1 to both
14:33:01 <RobW> Benjamin: current RDFa object, allows both triples and projection.
14:33:24 <manu> PROPOSAL: RDFa DOM API should provide both a raw triples interface and a projection-based interface.
14:33:29 <tinkster> +1
14:33:35 <manu> +1
14:33:35 <Knud> +1
14:33:35 <RobW> RobW: +1
14:33:36 <Steven> +0
14:33:37 <Benjamin> +1
14:33:39 <ivan> +1
14:33:40 <ShaneM> +1
14:34:05 <RobW> Steven: Can live with resolution
14:34:14 <RobW> ... not opposed
14:34:16 <manu> RESOLVED: RDFa DOM API should provide both a raw triples interface and a projection-based interface.
14:35:17 <RobW> TOPIC: Native language objects via DOM API
14:36:09 <RobW> manu: One issue with RDFaObject in the projection of data onto JS object.  But what about when object has multiple objects for same predicate?
14:36:15 <manu> person[foaf.nick] === ["joe", "joeb", "joey"];
14:36:23 <tinkster> RDFaObject could be renamed "Resource" (like RDFS) or "Thing" (like OWL).
14:36:38 <manu> if(person[foaf.nick] instanceof string) ...
14:37:10 <manu> person[foaf.nick] instanceof DOMString
14:37:12 <manu> person[foaf.nick] instanceof Array
14:37:38 <RobW> manu: The problem is that we don't know if the container, e.g., person[foaf.nick] is a DOMString or Array, multiple or single value.
14:37:39 <manu> whether to use person[foaf.nick][0] or person[foaf.nick]
14:38:19 <manu> if(person[foaf.nick] instanceof Array) {do x} else if(person[foaf.nick] instanceof String) {do y}
14:38:37 <Knud> can we have a new class that behaves nicely in both ways in JavaScript?
14:39:04 <RobW> manu: Fundemental limitation of language to do this both ways in JS
14:39:09 <manu> person[foaf.nick] == <single value>
14:39:21 <Benjamin> we provide addional methods: 
14:39:23 <Benjamin> rdfaObject.getValue(rdfa.rdfs.comment): bar                                                     
14:39:23 <Benjamin> rdfaObject.getValues(rdfa.rdfs.comment): foo,bar       
14:39:34 <manu> personb[foaf.nick] = persona[foaf.nick];
14:39:58 <manu> personb[foaf.nick] === "joe";
14:40:11 <manu> persona[foaf.nick] === ["joe", "joeb", "joey"];
14:40:32 <RobW> manu: For example, above assignment would only copy first item in array
14:40:59 <tinkster> if (person.has(rdfa.foaf.nick, "Joe")) { window.alert("It's Joe!"); }
14:41:00 <manu> var nick = personb[foaf.nick].getSingleValue();
14:43:03 <RobW> manu: is there general agreement that we should provide native language objects?
14:43:17 <RobW> ... any opposition?
14:44:04 <manu> persona.getProperty(foaf.nick)
14:44:10 <tinkster> I think it's definitely a good idea to have these; but not sure if they need to be part of the base DOM API - this could be a library layered on top of the API.
14:44:49 <ivan> tinkster++++
14:44:54 <ivan> keep it simple
14:45:35 <Benjamin> q+
14:45:39 <manu> ack Benjamin
14:45:41 <RobW> ivan: Agrees with tinkster.  Keep in Simple.  Put the basic stuff out there and add layers as time permits
14:45:48 <manu> q+ to discuss that this is Projection-based mechanism.
14:47:04 <manu> global rdfa
14:47:26 <RobW> manu: two different things -- global rdfa object and then RDFaObject
14:47:26 <manu> RDFaObject is returned from rdfa.list()
14:47:30 <Benjamin> rdfa.extractObject()
14:47:31 <manu> RDFaObject is returned from rdfa.getObject();
14:48:43 <manu> q?
14:48:46 <manu> ack manu
14:48:46 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to discuss that this is Projection-based mechanism.
14:48:47 <RobW> ivan: First step should be triple interface, then global rdfa object.  These should be seperate from any additional things we add on top of this API.  Concerned with over-engineering
14:51:39 <Benjamin> we provide 8 methods :)
14:52:38 <ShaneM> I think its fine... +1
14:52:41 <RobW> manu: any objection to putting native language mechanism out in FPWD?
14:53:01 <manu> PROPOSAL: Put Native language object support into DOM API for FPWD.
14:53:08 <tinkster> +1
14:53:10 <ShaneM> +1
14:53:11 <Steven> Fine by me
14:53:13 <RobW> RobW: +1
14:53:15 <Benjamin> +1
14:53:15 <ivan> +0
14:53:15 <manu> +1
14:53:20 <Knud> +1
14:53:32 <manu> RESOLVED: Put Native language object support into DOM API for FPWD.
14:53:42 <RobW> TOPIC: Triple-DOM Element Association
14:54:14 <RobW> manu: associating DOM elements with generated triples, so you know where each part of a triple comes from. 
14:55:25 <RobW> manu: Any feedback on tying elements to each part of triple (subject/predicate/object)
14:55:33 <RobW> ivan: would like to hear a use case
14:56:23 <RobW> manu: E.g., highlight all subjects on page, or all objects on page
14:56:37 <tinkster> No, it's a good idea. In my parsing API, I can feed the calling code a DOM element for each triple, but it's just the "[current element]" in RDFa processing sequence terminology, so not necessarily useful.
14:57:11 <tinkster> So if people can get to the other relevant nodes, that's a good thing.
14:57:13 <RobW> ShaneM: e.g., trace back to subject or object node from the predicate
14:58:17 <RobW> manu: more complicated in some programming platforms, with significant implementation costs, e.g., with SAX parser
14:58:41 <manu> q+ to end the meeting
14:58:41 <RobW> ivan: Agrees.  But might be a price to pay
14:59:07 <tinkster> I don't think it involves *that* much extra work. It should just be a matter of passing around three extra variables in the parsing context.
14:59:21 <manu> Blank Nodes, URIs, TypedLiterals, PlainLiterals would all have .element
15:00:08 <tinkster> getChildElementByID doesn't use "node"
15:00:17 <tinkster> getElementByID rather.
15:01:43 <RobW> manu: Any closing thoughts?  Next week likely resolution to create FPWD on API - we need reviewers.
15:02:07 <Steven>
15:03:23 <Knud> I'll give it a shot
15:03:32 <manu> ACTION: Shane to review RDFa DOM API FPWD
15:03:32 <trackbot> Created ACTION-27 - Review RDFa DOM API FPWD [on Shane McCarron - due 2010-04-29].
15:03:36 <tinkster> k thx bye
15:03:37 <Knud> :)
15:03:38 <Zakim> -Toby
15:03:39 <manu> ACTION: Knud to review RDFa DOM API FPWD
15:03:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-28 - Review RDFa DOM API FPWD [on Knud Möller - due 2010-04-29].
15:03:43 <Knud> who is going to be at WWW or WebScience? Should we have a little informal f2f?
15:03:55 <Zakim> -Steven
15:03:57 <Zakim> -RobW
15:03:57 <Zakim> -ShaneM
15:03:59 <Zakim> -Knud
15:04:10 <RobW> rrsagent, generate minutes
15:04:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate RobW
15:04:29 <Benjamin> I also stay a bit in this telcon to ask Manu some stuff about the api
15:07:15 <ivan>
15:08:46 <ivan> zakim, drop me
15:08:46 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
15:08:47 <Zakim> -Ivan