Chatlog 2009-11-24

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14:46:16 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #sparql
14:46:16 <RRSAgent> logging to
14:46:18 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:46:18 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #sparql
14:46:20 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 77277
14:46:20 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 14 minutes
14:46:20 <LeeF> zakim, this will be SPARQL
14:46:21 <trackbot> Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
14:46:21 <trackbot> Date: 24 November 2009
14:46:22 <Zakim> ok, LeeF; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 14 minutes
14:46:24 <LeeF> Chair: LeeF
14:46:27 <LeeF> Scribe: Chimezie
14:46:36 <LeeF> Agenda:
14:46:42 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #sparql
14:53:51 <AlexPassant> AlexPassant has joined #sparql
14:56:24 <kasei> kasei has joined #sparql
14:57:44 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started
14:57:51 <Zakim> + +1.310.453.aaaa
14:58:06 <kasei> Zakim, aaaa is me
14:58:06 <Zakim> +kasei; got it
14:58:07 <Zakim> +Lee_Feigenbaum
14:58:08 <OlivierCorby> OlivierCorby has joined #sparql
14:58:19 <LeeF> zakim, Lee_Feigenbaum is me
14:58:19 <Zakim> +LeeF; got it
14:58:25 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:59:04 <kasei> hmm... ok.
14:59:22 <Zakim> + +49.238.aabb
14:59:24 <kasei> was appologizing ahead of time -- was travelling all day yesterday and haven't yet caught up on SD emails.
14:59:35 <sandro> sandro has joined #sparql
14:59:40 <Zakim> +??P13
14:59:43 <kasei> (and will pick up phone when I need to speak next :)
14:59:57 <LukeWM> Zakim, ??P13 is me
14:59:57 <Zakim> +LukeWM; got it
15:00:03 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me
15:00:03 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
15:00:09 <Zakim> +??P14
15:00:13 <Zakim> + +1.312.863.aacc
15:00:14 <AlexPassant> Zakim: ??P14 is me
15:00:17 <SteveH> SteveH has joined #sparql
15:00:21 <bglimm> bglimm has joined #sparql
15:00:30 <dcharbon2> dcharbon2 has joined #sparql
15:00:42 <LeeF> zakim, who's here?
15:00:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see kasei, LeeF, AndyS, +49.238.aabb, LukeWM, ??P14, +1.312.863.aacc
15:00:43 <pgearon> Zakim: aacc is me
15:00:44 <Zakim> On IRC I see dcharbon2, bglimm, SteveH, sandro, OlivierCorby, kasei, AlexPassant, AxelPolleres, Zakim, RRSAgent, LeeF, LukeWM, AndyS, ivanh, karl, trackbot, iv_an_ru, pgearon,
15:00:46 <Zakim> ... KjetilK
15:00:59 <Zakim> + +8686528aadd
15:01:15 <bglimm> Zakim, + 8686528aadd is me
15:01:15 <Zakim> I don't understand '+ 8686528aadd is me', bglimm
15:01:26 <pgearon> Zakim, +1.312.863.aacc is me
15:01:27 <bglimm> Zakim, 8686528aadd is me
15:01:27 <Zakim> +pgearon; got it
15:01:31 <Zakim> sorry, bglimm, I do not recognize a party named '8686528aadd'
15:01:35 <Zakim> + +1.919.543.aaee
15:02:22 <LeeF> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:02:22 <Zakim> On the phone I see kasei, LeeF, AndyS, +49.238.aabb, LukeWM, ??P14, pgearon, +8686528aadd, +1.919.543.aaee
15:02:36 <AlexPassant> Zakim, ??P14 is me
15:02:36 <Zakim> +AlexPassant; got it
15:02:42 <LeeF> zakim, aadd is bglimm
15:02:43 <Zakim> +bglimm; got it
15:02:57 <dcharbon2> Zakim, +1.919.543.aaee is me
15:02:57 <Zakim> +dcharbon2; got it
15:03:15 <LeeF> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:03:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see kasei, LeeF, AndyS, +49.238.aabb, LukeWM, AlexPassant, pgearon, bglimm, dcharbon2
15:03:19 <ivanh> zakim, dial ivanh-voip
15:03:19 <Zakim> ok, ivanh; the call is being made
15:03:21 <Zakim> +IvanH
15:03:31 <Zakim> + +0207735aaff
15:03:43 <SteveH> Zakim, aaff is SteveH
15:03:43 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
15:03:52 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:04:07 <LeeF> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:04:07 <Zakim> On the phone I see kasei, LeeF, AndyS, +49.238.aabb, LukeWM, AlexPassant, pgearon, bglimm, dcharbon2, Ivanh, SteveH, Sandro
15:04:22 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #sparql
15:04:29 <chimezie> chimezie has joined #sparql
15:04:40 <chimezie> Zakim, passcode?
15:04:40 <Zakim> the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), chimezie
15:04:48 <LeeF> zakim, drop aabb
15:04:48 <Zakim> +49.238.aabb is being disconnected
15:04:49 <Zakim> - +49.238.aabb
15:05:13 <Zakim> +Chimezie_Ogbuji
15:05:28 <LeeF> Scribenick: chimezie
15:05:31 <chimezie> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:05:31 <Zakim> On the phone I see kasei, LeeF, AndyS, LukeWM, AlexPassant, pgearon, bglimm, dcharbon2, IvanH, SteveH, Sandro, Chimezie_Ogbuji
15:05:55 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:05:57 <Zakim> + +49.238.aagg
15:05:59 <chimezie> LeeF:Might be a short agenda
15:06:10 <LeeF> zakim, IPCaller is Orri
15:06:10 <Zakim> +Orri; got it
15:06:42 <LeeF> zakim, who's speaking?
15:06:54 <Zakim> LeeF, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: LeeF (34%), bglimm (5%), +49.238.aagg (3%)
15:07:00 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me
15:07:00 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted
15:07:17 <LeeF> zakim, aagg is OlivierCorby
15:07:17 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby; got it
15:07:27 <LeeF> topic: Admin
15:07:37 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Approve minutes at
15:07:42 <bglimm> Do we have Orri now? Because Orri was initially the IP caller
15:08:11 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Approve minutes at
15:08:23 <LeeF> Next meeting: 2009-12-01 @ 15:00 UK / 10:00 EST
15:08:30 <LeeF> Regrets: AxelPolleres
15:08:45 <sandro> I think I'm out next week
15:08:47 <SteveH> can only do one hour
15:08:54 <LeeF> Regrets next week: Sandro
15:09:21 <Zakim> -Sandro
15:09:35 <chimezie> RDB2RDF asked us about data definitions, etc.
15:09:40 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:09:50 <chimezie> LeeF:RDB2RDF grouped asked a few questions Axel answered
15:10:02 <chimezie> ... conversations regarding co-location of F2F.  I'm skeptical
15:10:17 <chimezie> ... go ahead with planning ours and considering opportunity if arises
15:10:27 <LeeF>
15:10:58 <chimezie> LeeF: please indicate status ASAP
15:11:04 <chimezie> Orri: location?
15:11:23 <bglimm> Ireland
15:11:28 <Zakim> -Sandro
15:11:31 <SteveH> europe
15:11:35 <chimezie> LeeF: Dual location Cambridge/MA or Galway/Oxford
15:11:50 <LukeWM> British Isles
15:11:53 <SteveH> british isles?
15:11:56 <bglimm> There is, either Great Britain or United Kingdom, but I can't remember which one is what
15:12:11 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:12:25 <pgearon> Both Great Britain and United Kingdom exclude Ireland
15:12:26 <AndyS> Not GB (Eng_Soct+Wales) - "citizen of UK and GB and NI"
15:12:37 <LeeF>
15:12:41 <chimezie> LeeF: IvanH added wiki page for tracking comments
15:12:58 <AndyS> Classic wikipedia:
15:13:17 <chimezie> ... hopefully as comments get in, they get added here and potenential response is setup, edited, and sent to commenter
15:13:30 <chimezie> ... tracks the thread.  Please try to use it, chairs will put comments there but anyone can use
15:14:03 <kasei> i've been meaning to write a response to Leigh's serv. desc. email. Will try to do that this week.
15:14:04 <bglimm> Zakim, unmute me
15:14:04 <Zakim> bglimm should no longer be muted
15:14:25 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me
15:14:25 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted
15:14:26 <kasei> the linked wikipedia page has a good venn diagram :)
15:14:27 <LeeF> topic: service description
15:14:39 <LeeF>
15:16:23 <chimezie> Greg: Changes were WRT rough agreement from F2F conversation.  Had a dataset description property that has been replaced with a default dataset and avaialble dataset properties
15:16:28 <chimezie> ... some conversation about naming
15:16:54 <chimezie> ... a default dataset and the available universe of graphs that can be used on FROM/FROM NAMED clauses
15:17:09 <chimezie> Greg: one thing in update is URL variance of those terms
15:17:22 <LeeF>
15:17:22 <Prateek> Prateek has joined #sparql
15:17:44 <chimezie> ... haven't committed to CVS, wanted to discuss 
15:17:47 <Zakim> + +1.937.775.aahh
15:17:51 <chimezie> LeeF: Easier if editors commit changes
15:17:58 <chimezie> .. even if under discussion
15:18:03 <Prateek> Zakim, +1.937.775.aahh is Prateek
15:18:03 <Zakim> +Prateek; got it
15:18:42 <chimezie> Greg: hoping ppl who needed this would chime in and drive discussion
15:19:04 <LeeF> commit early, commit often :)
15:19:12 <chimezie> ... this suggestion was for ppl that didn't want to list the entire dataset description.  
15:19:49 <chimezie> ... we can assume the URI for a dataset description is dereferencable
15:20:16 <AndyS> Style Q: Does the linked to document notionally replace the original?   (should it contain the orginal as well?)
15:20:19 <chimezie> LeeF:who had those usecases?
15:20:50 <chimezie> SteveH: we do have some usecases.. 10 millions of graphs
15:21:03 <chimezie> ... would like to be able to describe them.  
15:21:15 <chimezie> ... not at the graph level, but want a description of the whole dataset
15:21:57 <chimezie> Greg: default graph gives you access to all the graphs in your deployment?
15:22:00 <chimezie> SteveH: yes
15:22:11 <AndyS> Will the description be large? At a SPARQL endpoint?
15:22:15 <chimezie> Greg:service desc. points to default graph - no need to describe individual graphs
15:22:52 <AndyS> q+ to mention a large description use case
15:23:13 <chimezie> SteveH: if it is explicitely open world, that is fine
15:23:13 <LeeF> ack AndyS
15:23:13 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to mention a large description use case
15:23:33 <chimezie> AndyS: one case is where you have alot of statistics that goes with description to guide federated querying
15:24:33 <AndyS> Multiple datasets is a separate issue to me 
15:24:43 <chimezie> LeeF: comfortable having single property for these kinds of datasets desc. let them be open world - and if you don't want to include the triples in serv desc, then separate via linked data approach
15:26:05 <kasei> (bad line here -- having a bit of trouble hearing everything that's being said)
15:26:17 <chimezie> LeeF: at F2F what was said was: if we go to a SPARQL service, there are 2 things i want
15:26:35 <chimezie> ... what is the RDF dataset the query hits if the dataset isn't specified in request?
15:26:49 <chimezie> ... specification says: up to implementation so we might want that in serv. desc.
15:27:04 <chimezie> ... other question: what are the universe of graphs names I can use in dataset description to do useful things?
15:28:10 <chimezie> Seems very useful to me
15:29:04 <chimezie> for service discovery, incremental querying, etc.
15:29:36 <ivanh> q+
15:29:40 <chimezie> AndyS: I'm concerned with framing.  I would like to see an implementation that uses REGEX expressions (POWDER?)
15:29:49 <AndyS> c.f voiD
15:30:11 <chimezie> LeeF: we are being agnostic about things like that
15:30:28 <chimezie> Orri: problem is that we have sites with millions of distinct graphs
15:30:31 <LeeF> ack ivanh
15:30:36 <ivanh>
15:30:41 <AndyS> Framing I'm concerned with is "multiple datasets" rather than limiting FROM/FROM NAMED.
15:30:44 <chimezie> IvanH: don't we have a usecase (POWDER)?
15:31:13 <chimezie> IvanH: we can define families of resources and RDF statements valid for them, seems relevant to this conversation - POWDER handles REGEX matching of groups of URIs, for instance
15:31:52 <LeeF> AndyS, would you be happy with renaming availableDataset as something else? availableGraphs or something like that?
15:32:05 <chimezie> ... for example we have SW logos/buttons, etc.  I can describe them and prescribe a license to them in one go
15:32:07 <kasei> ivanh: is this something you think we should use directly, or continue to be agnostic about it so that someone could use powder or voiD or somethign else entirely?
15:32:11 <kasei> s/:/,/
15:32:14 <chimezie> .. this is the direction we are going (in some cases)
15:33:00 <AndyS> LeeF, yes (on the spot answer) The F2F descussion lead me down the wrong path and the email trail didn't contradict that interpretation.
15:33:11 <LeeF> AndyS, ok, thanks
15:33:21 <LeeF> (i didn't understand your concern until now)
15:33:31 <kasei> i'll try to take a look at the primer.
15:33:39 <chimezie> IvanH: uses XML format 
15:34:46 <LeeF> q?
15:35:00 <chimezie> Greg: this should not be contentious
15:35:42 <chimezie> ... also, is the use of available datasets should imply those are the only URIs usable in a dataset clause or is it just a mechanism to say you have descriptions from a subset 
15:35:51 <chimezie> LeeF: I don't think we can mandate one way or another
15:36:42 <chimezie> ... I think we should take an open world approach
15:36:52 <chimezie> Greg: aren't there implementations that make CWA assumptions?
15:37:35 <chimezie> LeeF: seems useful in general (RDF) to say a set of triples follow a CWA
15:38:40 <chimezie> Sandro: I don't understand the semantics.  there are graphs from a local cluster and names from other places
15:38:47 <chimezie> ... we can have a regex in either case
15:38:59 <chimezie> ... allowed graphs / cached graphs
15:39:22 <chimezie> ... Quad store that fetches anything in an intranet to cache
15:40:37 <chimezie> Greg: allowed graphs is better than allowed datasets, what we are taking about are available graph descriptions
15:41:01 <chimezie> Orri: can we say a quad store will fetch a resource if it doesn't cache it?
15:41:20 <chimezie> Greg: discussed IRI for indicating service will dereference URLs it hasn't loaded
15:41:30 <chimezie> Sandro: use allowed graphs for this
15:41:57 <AndyS> q+ to ask about status of describing the dataset structure.
15:42:10 <LeeF> ack AndyS
15:42:10 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask about status of describing the dataset structure.
15:42:24 <AndyS> cf. VoiD-Issue-43:
15:42:33 <chimezie> Andy: describing the datasets themselves...
15:42:57 <chimezie> ... there is a hope to transfer what the SPARQL WG is doing into their spec, and vice versa
15:44:14 <chimezie> AndyS: take to email
15:45:03 <chimezie> LeeF: time to reach agreement
15:45:21 <LeeF> topic: abbreviated delete
15:46:35 <kjetil> kjetil has joined #sparql
15:46:44 <chimezie> LeeF: let us wait until next week to discuss graphs datastores, etc.
15:47:03 <chimezie> ... including conversation about USE / INCLUDING, etc.. (multiple update statements)
15:47:22 <Zakim> +??P1
15:47:29 <KjetilK> Zakim, ??P1 is me
15:47:29 <Zakim> +KjetilK; got it
15:47:54 <KjetilK> Zakim, mute me
15:47:54 <Zakim> KjetilK should now be muted
15:47:58 <chimezie> pgearon: Where do we put the graph we are removing (inside the template or in the DELETE)?
15:48:06 <SteveH> I'm only in favour of this abbreviate with GRAPH in templates, otherwise it's very confusing
15:48:25 <SteveH> s/abbreviate/abbreviation/
15:48:42 <LeeF> why not DELETE FROM <g> WHERE { ?s ?p ?o } ?
15:49:14 <SteveH> hos is it not confusing? what does it mean?
15:49:23 <LeeF> DELETE { GRAPH <g> { ?s ?p ?o } }
15:49:27 <LeeF> DELETE WHERE { GRAPH <g> { ?s ?p ?o } }
15:49:31 <SteveH> ^ yup
15:49:42 <chimezie> remove the matched triples from the graph identified with <g>
15:49:55 <LeeF> DELETE { GRAPH <g> { ?s ?p ?o } } WHERE { GRAPH <g> { ?s ?p ?o } }
15:50:08 <AndyS> DELETE FROM ?g WHERE { ?s ?p ?o } ? (var for FROM)
15:50:14 <chimezie> inclear the graph
15:50:20 <chimezie> s/inclear/clear
15:51:03 <SteveH> +1 to abbr
15:51:04 <chimezie> LeeF: do we want an abbreviation
15:51:06 <AndyS> +1 to abbrev mechanism
15:51:07 <KjetilK> +1 for abbreviation mechanism
15:51:07 <pgearon> yes
15:51:09 <pgearon> +!
15:51:13 <pgearon> +1
15:51:14 <KjetilK> +100, actually :-)
15:51:14 <bglimm> 0
15:51:35 <pgearon> I'd like to see an abbreviation mechanism, but keep it simple
15:51:51 <chimezie> maybe we have that discussion first
15:52:22 <KjetilK> q+
15:53:08 <chimezie> pgearon: I feel we need to nail down issues first
15:54:08 <LeeF> ack KjetilK
15:54:10 <chimezie> LeeF: maybe we should not do it by commitee, but have editors lead
15:55:00 <chimezie> KjetilK: lead template identical to WHERE pattern - this is basic usecase, make sure we don't duplicate syntax
15:55:22 <pgearon> KjetilK, this basic removal of duplication is what I've put into the document
15:55:45 <SteveH> strawpoll on FROM and GRAPH?
15:55:46 <pgearon> So far I've avoided issues of FILTER, etc, that have been discussed
15:55:55 <Zakim> -Sandro
15:56:20 <AndyS> Maybe having a (more) formal model of update would help.
15:56:39 <pgearon> SteveH, I take it you're saying that you don't want to see:  DELETE WHERE { GRAPH <g> { ?s ?p ?o } }
15:56:42 <SteveH> +1 to AndyS 
15:56:46 <chimezie> SteveH: hoped it was clear enough for straw pol
15:56:51 <pgearon> oops, I mean, that's what you DO want to see
15:57:01 <SteveH> pgearon, yes, DO want to see that :)
15:57:09 <pgearon> and not DELETE FROM <g> WHERE { ?s ?p ?o }
15:57:17 <SteveH> I want to see DELETE $a WHERE $s == DELETE WHERE $a
15:57:28 <SteveH> and I think that's only possible with GRAPH syntax
15:58:02 <KjetilK> Zakim, mute me
15:58:02 <Zakim> KjetilK should now be muted
15:58:04 <SteveH> s/$s/$a
15:58:21 <chimezie> LeeF: David Charboneau will take over for Simon as coeditor on protocol document
15:58:30 <chimezie> DavidC: not setup yet fully
15:59:42 <Zakim> -IvanH
15:59:43 <Zakim> -Chimezie_Ogbuji
15:59:44 <Zakim> -SteveH
15:59:44 <Zakim> -Prateek
15:59:46 <Zakim> -kasei
15:59:47 <Zakim> -bglimm
15:59:48 <Zakim> -pgearon
15:59:49 <Zakim> -LeeF
15:59:52 <Zakim> -KjetilK
15:59:52 <Zakim> -AlexPassant
15:59:56 <Zakim> -dcharbon2
15:59:59 <Zakim> -OlivierCorby
16:00:05 <Zakim> -AndyS
16:06:26 <ivanH> ivanh has joined #sparql
16:06:37 <ivanH> ivanh has left #sparql
16:06:59 <Zakim> -Orri
16:22:09 <OlivierCorby> OlivierCorby has left #sparql
16:35:01 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, LukeWM, in SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM
16:35:04 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended
16:35:05 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.310.453.aaaa, kasei, LeeF, +49.238.aabb, LukeWM, AndyS, +8686528aadd, pgearon, AlexPassant, bglimm, dcharbon2, IvanH, +0207735aaff, SteveH, Sandro,
16:35:07 <Zakim> ... Chimezie_Ogbuji, +49.238.aagg, Orri, OlivierCorby, Prateek, KjetilK
18:04:04 <Zakim> Zakim has left #sparql
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