None.
<sandro> Meeting: SPARQL Entailment Regimes
<sandro> chair: bglimm
<sandro> scribe: Axel
(Scribe set to Axel Polleres)
15:02:38 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-sparql-ent-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-sparql-ent-irc ←
15:02:51 <bglimm> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2010-02-24
17:46:03 <bglimm> Hi Ivan
(No events recorded for 163 minutes)
Birte Glimm: Hi Ivan ←
17:46:10 <ivan> hi birte
Ivan Herman: hi birte ←
17:46:21 <bglimm> can we set the link to the agenda as chat topic?
Birte Glimm: can we set the link to the agenda as chat topic? ←
17:46:29 <bglimm> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2010-02-24
Birte Glimm: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2010-02-24 ←
17:46:32 <ivan> of course
Ivan Herman: of course ←
17:46:35 <bglimm> I didn't manage to do that
Birte Glimm: I didn't manage to do that ←
17:46:45 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2010-02-24
Ivan Herman: ivan has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2010-02-24 ←
17:46:54 <bglimm> :-)
Birte Glimm: :-) ←
17:46:55 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2010-02-24
Ivan Herman: ivan has changed the topic to: agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2010-02-24 ←
17:47:32 <ivan> zakim, room for 10 for 90 minutes?
Ivan Herman: zakim, room for 10 for 90 minutes? ←
17:47:33 <Zakim> ok, ivan; conference Team_(sparql-ent)17:47Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 90 minutes until 1917Z
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; conference Team_(sparql-ent)17:47Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 90 minutes until 1917Z ←
17:47:44 <ivan> here we are:-)
Ivan Herman: here we are:-) ←
17:47:58 <ivan> I asked for 90 minutes if we round out (and we still have 10 minutes)
Ivan Herman: I asked for 90 minutes if we round out (and we still have 10 minutes) ←
17:48:44 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Zakim code 26631, agenda http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2010-02-24
Ivan Herman: ivan has changed the topic to: Zakim code 26631, agenda http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2010-02-24 ←
17:49:19 <bglimm> :-)
Birte Glimm: :-) ←
17:50:32 <bglimm> I've updated the wiki agenda now
Birte Glimm: I've updated the wiki agenda now ←
17:58:37 <Zakim> Team_(sparql-ent)17:47Z has now started
(No events recorded for 8 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: Team_(sparql-ent)17:47Z has now started ←
17:58:44 <Zakim> +bglimm
Zakim IRC Bot: +bglimm ←
17:58:53 <AxelPolleres> hi all
hi all ←
17:58:57 <bglimm> Hi
Birte Glimm: Hi ←
17:59:01 <bglimm> The access code is 26631
Birte Glimm: The access code is 26631 ←
17:59:02 <AxelPolleres> chime?
chime? ←
17:59:07 <bglimm> Not yet
Birte Glimm: Not yet ←
18:01:44 <AxelPolleres> will sandro join?
will sandro join? ←
18:01:52 <bglimm> He said so I think
Birte Glimm: He said so I think ←
18:01:55 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip ←
18:01:55 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made ←
18:01:57 <Zakim> +Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan ←
18:02:41 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres
Zakim IRC Bot: +AxelPolleres ←
18:03:48 <sandro> zakim, what is the code?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, what is the code? ←
18:03:48 <Zakim> the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), sandro ←
18:03:51 <sandro> rrsagent, pointer?
Sandro Hawke: rrsagent, pointer? ←
18:03:51 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-sparql-ent-irc#T18-03-51
RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-sparql-ent-irc#T18-03-51 ←
18:04:11 <Zakim> +Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro ←
18:04:15 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call? ←
18:04:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see bglimm, Ivan, AxelPolleres, Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see bglimm, Ivan, AxelPolleres, Sandro ←
18:05:33 <sandro> (axel to make sure anything important gets recorded, but not really scribe.)
Sandro Hawke: (axel to make sure anything important gets recorded, but not really scribe.) ←
18:05:50 <AxelPolleres> inconsistency handling is not clear
inconsistency handling is not clear ←
18:06:55 <AxelPolleres> sandro: at least, is there a protocol way to signal inconsistency, even if not required
Sandro Hawke: at least, is there a protocol way to signal inconsistency, even if not required ←
18:07:03 <AxelPolleres> ... seems to me that we want to have that
... seems to me that we want to have that ←
18:08:13 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
18:10:13 <AxelPolleres> birte can you paste the C2 variation again?
birte can you paste the C2 variation again? ←
18:10:28 <Zakim> + +1.216.445.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.216.445.aaaa ←
18:10:31 <bglimm> Wait a sec
Birte Glimm: Wait a sec ←
18:10:35 <AxelPolleres> guess that's chime?
guess that's chime? ←
18:10:42 <chimezie> Zakim +1.216.445.aaaa is me
Chimezie Ogbuji: Zakim +1.216.445.aaaa is me ←
18:10:44 <chimezie> yes :)
Chimezie Ogbuji: yes :) ←
18:10:47 <bglimm> Current C2 in PWD:
Birte Glimm: Current C2 in PWD: ←
18:10:47 <bglimm> (C2) Each variable x that occurs in the subject position of a triple in
Birte Glimm: (C2) Each variable x that occurs in the subject position of a triple in ←
18:10:47 <bglimm> BGP is such that sk(μ(x)) occurs in sk(SG).
Birte Glimm: BGP is such that sk(μ(x)) occurs in sk(SG). ←
18:10:48 <bglimm> Proposed C2:
Birte Glimm: Proposed C2: ←
18:10:48 <bglimm> (C2) For each variable x in V(BGP), sk(μ(x)) occurs in sk(SG) or in
Birte Glimm: (C2) For each variable x in V(BGP), sk(μ(x)) occurs in sk(SG) or in ←
18:10:48 <bglimm> Vocab.
Birte Glimm: Vocab. ←
18:12:16 <AxelPolleres> rdf:_1 .... rdf:_n ?
rdf:_1 .... rdf:_n ? ←
18:13:28 <AxelPolleres> Vocab is a meant here to be a finite subset of the RDF, RDFS, OWL vocabularies
Vocab is a meant here to be a finite subset of the RDF, RDFS, OWL vocabularies ←
18:13:34 <bglimm> Here vocal is defined as the reserved vocabulary for the entailment
Birte Glimm: Here vocal is defined as the reserved vocabulary for the entailment ←
18:13:34 <bglimm> regime (e.g., the RDF vocabulary for RDF entailment) minus terms of the
Birte Glimm: regime (e.g., the RDF vocabulary for RDF entailment) minus terms of the ←
18:13:34 <bglimm> form rdf:_n with n in {1, 2, …}.
Birte Glimm: form rdf:_n with n in {1, 2, …}. ←
18:15:24 <AxelPolleres> this condition is not about inconsistencies, is it?
this condition is not about inconsistencies, is it? ←
18:15:49 <AxelPolleres> ivan: we don't want to restrict, where we don't have to.
Ivan Herman: we don't want to restrict, where we don't have to. ←
18:17:51 <AxelPolleres> my problem is ... we cannot reach the infinite wisdom... anyways
my problem is ... we cannot reach the infinite wisdom... anyways ←
18:21:17 <AxelPolleres> if we want to keep answers finite... we have to drop intuitiveness at some point :-(
if we want to keep answers finite... we have to drop intuitiveness at some point :-( ←
18:24:00 <AxelPolleres> still la bit puzzled about the role of data values in C2
still la bit puzzled about the role of data values in C2 ←
18:24:29 <AxelPolleres> take the decision on C2 on email...
take the decision on C2 on email... ←
18:25:25 <AxelPolleres> birte to please explain the role of data values in C2
birte to please explain the role of data values in C2 ←
18:26:25 <AxelPolleres> ivan: rif not being rrec shouldn't be a problem, confident that it will be ready there, afraid that it would be interpreted in underied way, if we mark it
Ivan Herman: rif not being rrec shouldn't be a problem, confident that it will be ready there, afraid that it would be interpreted in underied way, if we mark it ←
18:26:31 <AxelPolleres> birte: ok
Birte Glimm: ok ←
18:31:08 <AxelPolleres> I think we can define SPARQL wrt a RIF/RDF combination... but not really how you get to the scoping graph?
I think we can define SPARQL wrt a RIF/RDF combination... but not really how you get to the scoping graph? ←
18:31:32 <AxelPolleres> we can just say what the scoping grpah for some RIF/RDF combination is
we can just say what the scoping grpah for some RIF/RDF combination is ←
18:33:27 <AxelPolleres> we can sort out how we get to the correspondoing RIF/RDF combination later on.
we can sort out how we get to the correspondoing RIF/RDF combination later on. ←
18:34:07 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
18:34:25 <AxelPolleres> birte: at some point it was discussed whether we'd have an entailment regime per ruleset.
Birte Glimm: at some point it was discussed whether we'd have an entailment regime per ruleset. ←
18:34:28 <AxelPolleres> q+
q+ ←
18:34:34 <ivan> ack ivan
Ivan Herman: ack ivan ←
18:34:42 <AxelPolleres> ivan thinks that this is useless..
ivan thinks that this is useless.. ←
18:34:59 <bglimm> Here's somebody from RIF suggestion that: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Jan/0019.html
Birte Glimm: Here's somebody from RIF suggestion that: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Jan/0019.html ←
18:35:05 <AxelPolleres> q+ to state that this point is void, if we have solved "rif:imports"
q+ to state that this point is void, if we have solved "rif:imports" ←
18:35:18 <AxelPolleres> ack AxelPolleres
ack AxelPolleres ←
18:35:18 <Zakim> AxelPolleres, you wanted to state that this point is void, if we have solved "rif:imports"
Zakim IRC Bot: AxelPolleres, you wanted to state that this point is void, if we have solved "rif:imports" ←
18:36:43 <AxelPolleres> sandro: the case that is still open is...
Sandro Hawke: the case that is still open is... ←
18:37:09 <AxelPolleres> ... how does the client state which ruleset?
... how does the client state which ruleset? ←
18:37:27 <AxelPolleres> FROM mygraph ...
FROM mygraph ... ←
18:37:36 <AxelPolleres> where mygraph refers to a ruleset
where mygraph refers to a ruleset ←
18:38:05 <sandro> don't we need: QUERY ... FROM ... WITH <entailment-regime or ruleset > ....
Sandro Hawke: don't we need: QUERY ... FROM ... WITH <entailment-regime or ruleset > .... ←
18:39:04 <sandro> ahhhh, FROM <ruleset>
Sandro Hawke: ahhhh, FROM <ruleset> ←
18:39:55 <bglimm> Select ... FROM data.rdf FROM rules.rdf WHERE { ... }
Birte Glimm: Select ... FROM data.rdf FROM rules.rdf WHERE { ... } ←
18:40:22 <sandro> so this needs RIF-in-RDF for FROM.
Sandro Hawke: so this needs RIF-in-RDF for FROM. ←
18:41:01 <sandro> ivan: the rules.rdf would be an rdf graph with the rif:import triple in it.
Ivan Herman: the rules.rdf would be an rdf graph with the rif:import triple in it. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
18:41:10 <AxelPolleres> the current definitions (if we don't want to interfer with SPARQL 1.0 ) we can't do FROM <ruleset>
the current definitions (if we don't want to interfer with SPARQL 1.0 ) we can't do FROM <ruleset> ←
18:41:16 <bglimm> yes that would work
Birte Glimm: yes that would work ←
18:41:34 <AxelPolleres> ... but we can do FROM <... rif:imports ...>
... but we can do FROM <... rif:imports ...> ←
18:42:49 <bglimm> it should probably called rif:useRuleSet or something like that
Birte Glimm: it should probably called rif:useRuleSet or something like that ←
18:43:04 <bglimm> or even sparql:useRuleSet
Birte Glimm: or even sparql:useRuleSet ←
18:44:08 <AxelPolleres> sparql:useRuleSet
sparql:useRuleSet ←
18:44:51 <sandro> conclusion: if necessary, we can do rif-import under spaql
Sandro Hawke: conclusion: if necessary, we can do rif-import under spaql ←
18:45:01 <AxelPolleres> conclusion is... if all goes wrong, we can do� "rif:imports" ourselves.
conclusion is... if all goes wrong, we can do� "rif:imports" ourselves. ←
18:45:57 <AxelPolleres> I think we can handle bnodes.
I think we can handle bnodes. ←
18:46:24 <AxelPolleres> chime suggested to stick with *strongly safe* core?
chime suggested to stick with *strongly safe* core? ←
18:47:30 <bglimm> if p(?n) then p(?n+1).
Birte Glimm: if p(?n) then p(?n+1). ←
18:47:30 <bglimm> p(1).
Birte Glimm: p(1). ←
18:47:31 <bglimm> and the query
Birte Glimm: and the query ←
18:47:31 <bglimm> p(?x).
Birte Glimm: p(?x). ←
18:51:01 <AxelPolleres> sandro: why the finiteness restriction in first place?
Sandro Hawke: why the finiteness restriction in first place? ←
18:51:05 <AxelPolleres> can we change that?
can we change that? ←
18:51:42 <AxelPolleres> ... no implementation crucially relies on that.
... no implementation crucially relies on that. ←
18:52:17 <AxelPolleres> ...if it's just not intuitive, we may want to question that.
...if it's just not intuitive, we may want to question that. ←
18:53:19 <sandro> axel: simple way to restrict finiteness: things in answer must occur in data.
Axel Polleres: simple way to restrict finiteness: things in answer must occur in data. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
18:55:38 <sandro> sandro: that's a non starter -- you couldn't get results from a computation.
Sandro Hawke: that's a non starter -- you couldn't get results from a computation. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
18:56:07 <sandro> axel: you could allow computations to recursive level N from the data.
Axel Polleres: you could allow computations to recursive level N from the data. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
18:57:03 <sandro> sandro: just say it has to be any finite number of recursions.
Sandro Hawke: just say it has to be any finite number of recursions. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
18:57:11 <AxelPolleres> sandro: how if we only restrict that any implemnentation has to limit the recursion depth.
Sandro Hawke: how if we only restrict that any implemnentation has to limit the recursion depth. ←
18:57:16 <AxelPolleres> ... but not how?
... but not how? ←
18:58:42 <AxelPolleres> p(1)
p(1) ←
18:58:56 <AxelPolleres> q(x+1) :- p(x).
q(x+1) :- p(x). ←
18:59:10 <AxelPolleres> r(x+1) :- q(x)
r(x+1) :- q(x) ←
19:05:43 <AxelPolleres> sandro: suggests... just leave behaivor of SPARQL undefined whenever the closure of R is infinite?
(No events recorded for 6 minutes)
Sandro Hawke: suggests... just leave behaivor of SPARQL undefined whenever the closure of R is infinite? ←
19:07:23 <AxelPolleres> chime: suggest to standardise a possibly boring finite subset
Chimezie Ogbuji: suggest to standardise a possibly boring finite subset ←
19:07:35 <AxelPolleres> sandr: suggest to just don't worry about finiteness
Sandro Hawke: suggest to just don't worry about finiteness ←
19:07:43 <AxelPolleres> (two quite opposite positions)
(two quite opposite positions) ←
19:09:16 <sandro> sandro: use case, define an odd() predicate, then query for { ?s ?p ?o; ?o a oddNumber }
Sandro Hawke: use case, define an odd() predicate, then query for { ?s ?p ?o; ?o a oddNumber } [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
19:09:41 <Zakim> -bglimm
Zakim IRC Bot: -bglimm ←
19:09:52 <bglimm> sorry dropped out
Birte Glimm: sorry dropped out ←
19:11:33 <Zakim> +bglimm
Zakim IRC Bot: +bglimm ←
19:11:48 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
19:12:06 <AxelPolleres> ivan is still on the q
ivan is still on the q ←
19:12:50 <sandro> axel: a use case for RIF in SPARQL with strongly-safe core == subsets of RDFS-entailment, ad hoc OWL-RL entailment.
Axel Polleres: a use case for RIF in SPARQL with strongly-safe core == subsets of RDFS-entailment, ad hoc OWL-RL entailment. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
19:13:46 <AxelPolleres> ivan: what comes to my mind... did we have in SPARQL a way to include a time/resource limit?
Ivan Herman: what comes to my mind... did we have in SPARQL a way to include a time/resource limit? ←
19:14:01 <AxelPolleres> sandro: we only have result limit
Sandro Hawke: we only have result limit ←
19:14:08 <sandro> sandro: I think it only has LIMIT; with entailment, yes, it would be nice to have TIME limit, too.
Sandro Hawke: I think it only has LIMIT; with entailment, yes, it would be nice to have TIME limit, too. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
19:14:08 <bglimm> resource limit: LIMIT N
Birte Glimm: resource limit: LIMIT N ←
19:15:03 <AxelPolleres> not for this round, I guess.
not for this round, I guess. ←
19:15:50 <sandro> sandro: maybe you can throw this in the SPARQL protocol, as an ignore-if-you-don't-understand
Sandro Hawke: maybe you can throw this in the SPARQL protocol, as an ignore-if-you-don't-understand [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
19:16:32 <Zakim> -Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan ←
19:16:32 <bglimm> bye
Birte Glimm: bye ←
19:16:33 <Zakim> - +1.216.445.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.216.445.aaaa ←
19:16:33 <AxelPolleres> thanks birte...
thanks birte... ←
19:16:35 <Zakim> -Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro ←
19:16:35 <bglimm> adjourned
Birte Glimm: adjourned ←
19:16:46 <Zakim> -bglimm
Zakim IRC Bot: -bglimm ←
19:16:48 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
Zakim IRC Bot: -AxelPolleres ←
19:16:49 <Zakim> Team_(sparql-ent)17:47Z has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: Team_(sparql-ent)17:47Z has ended ←
19:16:51 <Zakim> Attendees were bglimm, Ivan, AxelPolleres, Sandro, +1.216.445.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were bglimm, Ivan, AxelPolleres, Sandro, +1.216.445.aaaa ←
19:17:10 <AxelPolleres> rrsagent, make records public
rrsagent, make records public ←
19:17:31 <sandro> rrsagent, pointer?
Sandro Hawke: rrsagent, pointer? ←
19:17:31 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-sparql-ent-irc#T19-17-31
RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-sparql-ent-irc#T19-17-31 ←
19:19:20 <sandro> ewwwww. commonscribe doesn't want to handle this irc log being on a strange channel.
Sandro Hawke: ewwwww. commonscribe doesn't want to handle this irc log being on a strange channel. ←
19:21:55 <bglimm> hm, what's so strange about it. Should I pick a different one for the next teleconf?
Birte Glimm: hm, what's so strange about it. Should I pick a different one for the next teleconf? ←
19:22:57 <sandro> it's just looking for #sparql. maybe easier to use that, next time, since there's no conflict with the WG at that time.
Sandro Hawke: it's just looking for #sparql. maybe easier to use that, next time, since there's no conflict with the WG at that time. ←
19:23:34 <bglimm> ok. Whoever is not interested in entailments can just ignore us ;-)
Birte Glimm: ok. Whoever is not interested in entailments can just ignore us ;-) ←
Formatted by CommonScribe
This revision (#2) generated 2010-02-24 19:34:55 UTC by 'unknown', comments: None