IRC log of sparql-ent on 2010-02-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:02:38 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-sparql-ent-irc
15:02:51 [bglimm]
agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2010-02-24
17:02:17 [kpbrown]
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17:30:06 [Zakim]
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17:40:21 [ivan]
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17:40:28 [Zakim]
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17:46:03 [bglimm]
Hi Ivan
17:46:10 [ivan]
hi birte
17:46:21 [bglimm]
can we set the link to the agenda as chat topic?
17:46:29 [bglimm]
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2010-02-24
17:46:32 [ivan]
of course
17:46:35 [bglimm]
I didn't manage to do that
17:46:45 [ivan]
ivan has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2010-02-24
17:46:54 [bglimm]
:-)
17:46:55 [ivan]
ivan has changed the topic to: agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2010-02-24
17:47:32 [ivan]
zakim, room for 10 for 90 minutes?
17:47:33 [Zakim]
ok, ivan; conference Team_(sparql-ent)17:47Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 90 minutes until 1917Z
17:47:44 [ivan]
here we are:-)
17:47:58 [ivan]
I asked for 90 minutes if we round out (and we still have 10 minutes)
17:48:44 [ivan]
ivan has changed the topic to: Zakim code 26631, agenda http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2010-02-24
17:49:19 [bglimm]
:-)
17:50:32 [bglimm]
I've updated the wiki agenda now
17:58:37 [Zakim]
Team_(sparql-ent)17:47Z has now started
17:58:44 [Zakim]
+bglimm
17:58:45 [AxelPolleres]
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17:58:53 [AxelPolleres]
hi all
17:58:57 [bglimm]
Hi
17:59:01 [bglimm]
The access code is 26631
17:59:02 [AxelPolleres]
chime?
17:59:07 [bglimm]
Not yet
18:01:44 [AxelPolleres]
will sandro join?
18:01:52 [bglimm]
He said so I think
18:01:55 [ivan]
zakim, dial ivan-voip
18:01:55 [Zakim]
ok, ivan; the call is being made
18:01:57 [Zakim]
+Ivan
18:02:41 [Zakim]
+AxelPolleres
18:03:42 [sandro]
sandro has joined #sparql-ent
18:03:48 [sandro]
zakim, what is the code?
18:03:48 [Zakim]
the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), sandro
18:03:51 [sandro]
rrsagent, pointer?
18:03:51 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-sparql-ent-irc#T18-03-51
18:04:11 [Zakim]
+Sandro
18:04:15 [sandro]
zakim, who is on the call?
18:04:15 [Zakim]
On the phone I see bglimm, Ivan, AxelPolleres, Sandro
18:05:33 [sandro]
(axel to make sure anything important gets recorded, but not really scribe.)
18:05:35 [AxelPolleres]
topic: general entailment regimes issues
18:05:50 [AxelPolleres]
inconsistency handling is not clear
18:06:55 [AxelPolleres]
sandro: at least, is there a protocol way to signal inconsistency, even if not required
18:07:03 [AxelPolleres]
... seems to me that we want to have that
18:08:13 [ivan]
q+
18:10:04 [chimezie]
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18:10:13 [AxelPolleres]
birte can you paste the C2 variation again?
18:10:28 [Zakim]
+ +1.216.445.aaaa
18:10:31 [bglimm]
Wait a sec
18:10:35 [AxelPolleres]
guess that's chime?
18:10:42 [chimezie]
Zakim +1.216.445.aaaa is me
18:10:44 [chimezie]
yes :)
18:10:47 [bglimm]
Current C2 in PWD:
18:10:47 [bglimm]
(C2) Each variable x that occurs in the subject position of a triple in
18:10:47 [bglimm]
BGP is such that sk(μ(x)) occurs in sk(SG).
18:10:48 [bglimm]
Proposed C2:
18:10:48 [bglimm]
(C2) For each variable x in V(BGP), sk(μ(x)) occurs in sk(SG) or in
18:10:48 [bglimm]
Vocab.
18:12:16 [AxelPolleres]
rdf:_1 .... rdf:_n ?
18:13:28 [AxelPolleres]
Vocab is a meant here to be a finite subset of the RDF, RDFS, OWL vocabularies
18:13:34 [bglimm]
Here vocal is defined as the reserved vocabulary for the entailment
18:13:34 [bglimm]
regime (e.g., the RDF vocabulary for RDF entailment) minus terms of the
18:13:34 [bglimm]
form rdf:_n with n in {1, 2, …}.
18:15:24 [AxelPolleres]
this condition is not about inconsistencies, is it?
18:15:49 [AxelPolleres]
ivan: we don't want to restrict, where we don't have to.
18:17:51 [AxelPolleres]
my problem is ... we cannot reach the infinite wisdom... anyways
18:21:17 [AxelPolleres]
if we want to keep answers finite... we have to drop intuitiveness at some point :-(
18:24:00 [AxelPolleres]
still la bit puzzled about the role of data values in C2
18:24:29 [AxelPolleres]
take the decision on C2 on email...
18:25:25 [AxelPolleres]
birte to please explain the role of data values in C2
18:25:40 [AxelPolleres]
topic: shall we mark rif "at risk"?
18:26:25 [AxelPolleres]
ivan: rif not being rrec shouldn't be a problem, confident that it will be ready there, afraid that it would be interpreted in underied way, if we mark it
18:26:31 [AxelPolleres]
birte: ok
18:31:08 [AxelPolleres]
I think we can define SPARQL wrt a RIF/RDF combination... but not really how you get to the scoping graph?
18:31:32 [AxelPolleres]
we can just say what the scoping grpah for some RIF/RDF combination is
18:33:27 [AxelPolleres]
we can sort out how we get to the correspondoing RIF/RDF combination later on.
18:34:07 [ivan]
q+
18:34:25 [AxelPolleres]
birte: at some point it was discussed whether we'd have an entailment regime per ruleset.
18:34:28 [AxelPolleres]
q+
18:34:34 [ivan]
ack ivan
18:34:42 [AxelPolleres]
ivan thinks that this is useless..
18:34:59 [bglimm]
Here's somebody from RIF suggestion that: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Jan/0019.html
18:35:05 [AxelPolleres]
q+ to state that this point is void, if we have solved "rif:imports"
18:35:18 [AxelPolleres]
ack AxelPolleres
18:35:18 [Zakim]
AxelPolleres, you wanted to state that this point is void, if we have solved "rif:imports"
18:36:43 [AxelPolleres]
sandro: the case that is still open is...
18:37:09 [AxelPolleres]
... how does the client state which ruleset?
18:37:27 [AxelPolleres]
FROM mygraph ...
18:37:36 [AxelPolleres]
where mygraph refers to a ruleset
18:38:05 [sandro]
don't we need: QUERY ... FROM ... WITH <entailment-regime or ruleset > ....
18:39:04 [sandro]
ahhhh, FROM <ruleset>
18:39:55 [bglimm]
Select ... FROM data.rdf FROM rules.rdf WHERE { ... }
18:40:22 [sandro]
so this needs RIF-in-RDF for FROM.
18:41:01 [sandro]
ivan: the rules.rdf would be an rdf graph with the rif:import triple in it.
18:41:10 [AxelPolleres]
the current definitions (if we don't want to interfer with SPARQL 1.0 ) we can't do FROM <ruleset>
18:41:16 [bglimm]
yes that would work
18:41:34 [AxelPolleres]
... but we can do FROM <... rif:imports ...>
18:42:49 [bglimm]
it should probably called rif:useRuleSet or something like that
18:43:04 [bglimm]
or even sparql:useRuleSet
18:44:08 [AxelPolleres]
sparql:useRuleSet
18:44:51 [sandro]
conclusion: if necessary, we can do rif-import under spaql
18:45:01 [AxelPolleres]
conclusion is... if all goes wrong, we can do "rif:imports" ourselves.
18:45:57 [AxelPolleres]
I think we can handle bnodes.
18:46:24 [AxelPolleres]
chime suggested to stick with *strongly safe* core?
18:47:30 [bglimm]
if p(?n) then p(?n+1).
18:47:30 [bglimm]
p(1).
18:47:31 [bglimm]
and the query
18:47:31 [bglimm]
p(?x).
18:51:01 [AxelPolleres]
sandro: why the finiteness restriction in first place?
18:51:05 [AxelPolleres]
can we change that?
18:51:42 [AxelPolleres]
... no implementation crucially relies on that.
18:52:17 [AxelPolleres]
...if it's just not intuitive, we may want to question that.
18:53:19 [sandro]
axel: simple way to restrict finiteness: things in answer must occur in data.
18:55:38 [sandro]
sandro: that's a non starter -- you couldn't get results from a computation.
18:56:07 [sandro]
axel: you could allow computations to recursive level N from the data.
18:57:03 [sandro]
sandro: just say it has to be any finite number of recursions.
18:57:11 [AxelPolleres]
sandro: how if we only restrict that any implemnentation has to limit the recursion depth.
18:57:16 [AxelPolleres]
... but not how?
18:58:42 [AxelPolleres]
p(1)
18:58:56 [AxelPolleres]
q(x+1) :- p(x).
18:59:10 [AxelPolleres]
r(x+1) :- q(x)
19:05:43 [AxelPolleres]
sandro: suggests... just leave behaivor of SPARQL undefined whenever the closure of R is infinite?
19:07:23 [AxelPolleres]
chime: suggest to standardise a possibly boring finite subset
19:07:35 [AxelPolleres]
sandr: suggest to just don't worry about finiteness
19:07:43 [AxelPolleres]
(two quite opposite positions)
19:09:16 [sandro]
sandro: use case, define an odd() predicate, then query for { ?s ?p ?o; ?o a oddNumber }
19:09:41 [Zakim]
-bglimm
19:09:52 [bglimm]
sorry dropped out
19:11:33 [Zakim]
+bglimm
19:11:48 [ivan]
q+
19:12:06 [AxelPolleres]
ivan is still on the q
19:12:50 [sandro]
axel: a use case for RIF in SPARQL with strongly-safe core == subsets of RDFS-entailment, ad hoc OWL-RL entailment.
19:13:46 [AxelPolleres]
ivan: what comes to my mind... did we have in SPARQL a way to include a time/resource limit?
19:14:01 [AxelPolleres]
sandro: we only have result limit
19:14:08 [sandro]
sandro: I think it only has LIMIT; with entailment, yes, it would be nice to have TIME limit, too.
19:14:08 [bglimm]
resource limit: LIMIT N
19:15:03 [AxelPolleres]
not for this round, I guess.
19:15:50 [sandro]
sandro: maybe you can throw this in the SPARQL protocol, as an ignore-if-you-don't-understand
19:16:32 [Zakim]
-Ivan
19:16:32 [bglimm]
bye
19:16:33 [Zakim]
- +1.216.445.aaaa
19:16:33 [AxelPolleres]
thanks birte...
19:16:35 [Zakim]
-Sandro
19:16:35 [bglimm]
adjourned
19:16:46 [Zakim]
-bglimm
19:16:48 [Zakim]
-AxelPolleres
19:16:49 [Zakim]
Team_(sparql-ent)17:47Z has ended
19:16:51 [Zakim]
Attendees were bglimm, Ivan, AxelPolleres, Sandro, +1.216.445.aaaa
19:17:10 [AxelPolleres]
rrsagent, make records public
19:17:31 [sandro]
rrsagent, pointer?
19:17:31 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-sparql-ent-irc#T19-17-31
19:19:20 [sandro]
ewwwww. commonscribe doesn't want to handle this irc log being on a strange channel.
19:21:55 [bglimm]
hm, what's so strange about it. Should I pick a different one for the next teleconf?
19:22:57 [sandro]
it's just looking for #sparql. maybe easier to use that, next time, since there's no conflict with the WG at that time.
19:23:34 [bglimm]
ok. Whoever is not interested in entailments can just ignore us ;-)
19:24:12 [sandro]
indeed.
19:44:50 [AxelPolleres]
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