<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/adaptive/strategies.html
Shawn: Three documents on the agenda, first is Better Web Browsing (http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/adaptive/strategies.html). This document had different iterations of the title. Shadi?
Shadi: The title is one thing we are still working on. Two main comments that have come in which are related: (1) the navigation to make it easier to jump in and have something FAQ stylish so to see quickly up front; (2) the other aspect is the general expectation. To know what the document does and doesn't do. Tried to address these comments by modifying the title slightly, and putting in a page content quite far up even before the introduction.The page title itself has the full wording, the H1 has only "Better web browsing". And the rest is an emphasized text. Those are the main changes. The front parts or top part of the document to help clarify what it is and where to jump in the document.
Jennifer: All my comments are at editors discretion.
Shawn: In some documents, we have had a H1 and a sub title. The current draft one issue whether we decide for the heading, is the H1 and title and have a sub title or not. Overall what are your thoughts on this title? "Better Web Browsing". The audience is older user, trainers of older users, PWD recently with disability.
Andrew: Better captures quite well about being both effective and enjoyable.
William: Better serves as a modifier and verb.
Shawn: Is web browsing the right term these days?
Doyle: yes
William: maybe not enjoyable but right otherwise.
Jennifer: search term?
Shadi: that was a long discussion, one search term would be configuring a computer system.
Shawn: probably configure. Do we have those in the "H2"s? An interesting point we come across, how much is the SEO (Search Engine Optimisation) impact are the headings? Difference between computer and computer systems as to jargon.
Andrew: that helps geeks find it. You mean taking a casual course?
<shadi> "Approaches to Using Your Computer System More Effectively and Making Web Browsing More Enjoyable"
Shadi: yes I meant casual persons. The title sub title was long choice about enjoyable and useful.
<shawn> Configure your computer...
William: how about how to browse web more effectively, approaches goes into the second line.
Sharron: approaches is probably the wrong word there.
Shawn: the issue is this document doesn't give the step by step guidance. It gives points to how you could do that. We are trying to not over promise what the document would give you.
Shadi: another suggestion was to use the word "idea".
<Andrew> Ideas for Making Web Browsing More Effective and Enjoyable
Sharron: Customizing is more comfortable for people.
Shadi: does that cover adding software?
Yeliz: I think so. I like the current title but it is not clear enough. Customizing or personalising would be useful.
<Andrew> Customising/personalising your computer system to Making Web Browsing More Effective and Enjoyable
<shadi> "Customizing Your Computer to Make Web Browsing More Effective and Enjoyable"
Jennifer: my Father would think personalizing would be right, not customizing.
Jack: customizing sounds techie.
Shawn: Helle could you comment on customizing?
<shadi> Helle: "How to Setup Your Computer to Make Web Browsing More Enjoyable"
<shawn> How to Customize Your Computer to Make the Web Work Better
Helle: I was thinking about it. I think customizing could work. "The approaches" how I would translate, "approaches" is not a very common word. I would have to restructure the sentence if you have that approach in the beginning, I would say how to make web browsing more efficient, different ways of doing that. A bit different from the English version. I wouldn't use customizing because we don't have such a structure in our language.
Shadi: I haven't thought through but that customizing might make the sentence structure difficult.
Shawn: personalizing, customizing, computer system, how to customize your computer to make more accessible.
Shadi: might be over promising or raising to high expectations.
Jennifer: over promises.
Andrew: ideas works because we are offering.
Jennifer: I don't like it but it's really ideas and resources.
<shadi> Sharron: "Suggestions"
Shadi: same with customizing and configuring is very border line. We don't really tell you how to customize.
Shawn: it's more important to get people here, maybe with a how to it would be better. I'm not sure if it is necessary.
<yeliz> What about "Resources about customising your computer"
Andrew: I agree as long as we don't have how to. It works.
William: approaches to. Making Web Browsing more effective, sub title better web browsing.
Shawn: comments?
<shadi> William: "Making Web Browsing More Effective and Enjoyable"
Helle: a little how to. More general thing. I would prefer that making web browsing efficient and enjoyable.
<shadi> Sharron: "resources for customizing"?
Sharron: resources for customizing. Tips is good.
<shawn> pointers / tips
<shadi> [Tips]
Yeliz: Tips is good.
<shawn> Better Web Browsing: Tips for making it easier to use the Web
Shawn: Tips for making it easier to use the web.
ACTION: shadi - adaptive - consider "tips" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/11-eo-minutes.html#action01]Doyle: likes that version.
<Andrew> "tips for customising your computer to Make Web Browsing More Effective and Enjoyable" - but too long
Shawn: we don't have the SEO of computer in there.
Sharron: what about tips for adapting your computer.
Shadi: no I don't want to use that. Old version and we don't want to use in public.
<yeliz> Better Web Browsing: Tips for customising your computer
Jennifer: tips for customising your computer.
Sharron: I like that.
<shadi> ACTION: shadi - adaptive - consider "Better Web Browsing: Tips for Customising Your Computer" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/11-eo-minutes.html#action02]
Sharron: documents in verse now.
<Andrew> BWB (Better Web Browsing): Tips for CYC (Customising Your Computer)
Shawn: BWB: Tips for CYC
Shadi: I love the title, question better or easier?
Sharron: better.
Yeliz: better.
Shadi: that is pretty short, we keep as the title, no sub title here.
<yeliz> +1
Jennifer: do you put a colon in?
Shawn: yes. Shadi we can sit on that?
Shadi: done
Shawn: not set in stone absolutely. Someone might come up that don't like it.
Shadi: sure the whole document but has a good resonance though.
Shawn: thanks for the comments. Let's look at the organisation and flow over all. The page content has been pulled out, and the research has been moved up. Comments?
Shadi: we changed the references to be directly inline. After each question or piece that describes the customisation approach, and the reference is online. Since this in a FAQ style this seems to work best.
Yeliz: Do all references sections have the same title?
Shadi: same title?
Yeliz: all resources have same title?
Jennifer: I didn't have a problem, not headings, and you know how it works you know what to look for.
william: what does the screen reader do with the little note. The symbol?
Shadi: it doesn't it is in CSS.
Jennifer: what do you mean?
Shadi: the resources link have a different bullet only a CSS style. Informative or not, put each resource.
Shadi: Icon says links to the WAI web site.
Jennifer: I personally find that annoying, everything starts with opening link. Put the link at the top of resources. That to me is the simplest solution to do at the beginning.
Shawn: a lengthy disclaimer?
Jennifer: might be good enough.
Shawn: you follow a link once or twice you realize it leaves the WAI site.
William: every item has the same bullet in front of it.
<shadi> ACTION: shadi - adaptive - consider adding a sentence about external links in the disclaimer or somewhere upfront [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/11-eo-minutes.html#action03]
Shawn: CSS it's just visual. Icon doesn't have a alt text.
Shadi: All icons are only visual.
Andrew: what about "related external resources". Instead of related resources.
Shawn: unnecessary wording.
Andrew: external resources?
Shawn: do we need to use that?
Andrew: personally no but a lot of people would.
Jack: my first reaction no. When you see my web BBC you have the hint it is an external resource.
Jennifer: when you hear people complain then you can consider this.
<shadi> ACTION: shadi - adaptive - ensure link texts are clear about external resources [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/11-eo-minutes.html#action04]
Shawn: what else on over all organization flow?
Helle: why not explore your computer system. The first says RNIB in brackets but not after that?
Shadi: Yes we will take a more diligent task to look at the link names.
Jennifers: kudos to you guys. Getting the link resources is hard.
Jack: over all organization, I really like how you have this set up. The way you chunk things and organize. I like it a lot.
<yeliz> Me too, I really like it
Shadi: all the great input from this group!
Shawn: general questions Shadi?
Shadi: this is great, I've taken a few actions for me and Andrew. The document has matured. Now time the nit picky work. Please send the comments, typos and other comments to us.
<shawn> ACTION: shadi - adaptive - consider putting "back to page contents" only before headings (that is, delete those before "System: You can also change the default display..." and "Tools: There are screen magnifiers...") [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/11-eo-minutes.html#action05]
Jennifer: I will keep going, and I'll send more comments over the weekend.
Shadi: some background. When reviewing look at actual words that readers will look for. Like multimedia is more common but they mean audio.
Shawn: most people would call videos.
Jennifer: multi media is not really audio. Under multi media you talk about.
Shawn: multi media is too geeky and may be better to use audio and videos.
Jennifer: I think audio works. Most people use that.
Shadi: I'll bring into the mailing list.
<shawn> NOTE:
Shawn: One thing we need to talk
about... How much review would you have in December. We have the
Business Case. Some people need to do. How to contact
organizations. We assumed we are done with that. We have the
before and after demos. The WAI age slides done for some time.
Then we have some other things at an earlier draft. How much
review time do you have in December. As Shadi says this is done
and ready for review. I assume you have reviewed the
"contacting" and "Business Case Resources"
... business case, reviewed the slides, and do this one in the
coming weeks.
William: I said bottle it for all?
Shawn: not for this one, the other ones are. Unless you say otherwise.
William: I think bottle it.
Shawn: we feel this needs a review in detail.
Sharron: I haven't looked at the slides since October.
Shawn: I haven 't also look at the "Better Web Browsing" in detail.
Sharron: bottling the Business Case in the present form, I don't think it is strong enough. I wouldn't say don't publish. I wish we could get some stronger stuff.
Shawn: when can you review Better web browsing in detail Jennifer?
Jennifer: this weekend.
Doyle: this weekend.
Sharron: this weekend
Jack: I could do this weekend.
Yeliz: over next week. I could complete the Business case tomorrow, and the rest next week.
Shawn: we wouldn't try to publish this December.
Doyle: that would be better for me.
Shadi: If you could do over the next week is ok. Announce in Early January.
Shawn:Review next week is fine. Business Case is next week though. Shadi will take another pass, and put comments to EO.
<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/demos/bad/draft/2009/Overview
Shadi: I briefly mention the design. Please refresh the page. We have done substantial change. All the pages of the demos is in one design. Nice package. Maybe have to do one in between page. Main thing the demo is in a single navigation. See how that is working. Jump between pages, do they work? forget where you are. Hopefully annotations might not work. Navigation should work from the top. Reactions?
William: about the demo near the top?
Shawn: over the headings.
Shadi: a bug.
<shadi> ACTION: Shadi - BAD - remove hover effect on headings [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/11-eo-minutes.html#action06]
Jennifer: the one comment about the design. Be careful about the page titles so you know the inaccessible section and the good page you know where you are.
Shadi: still is an open issue. The titles in HTML are not accessible.
Jennifer: one issue to consider is my main concern.
Shawn: brackets at the end. Says right now inaccessible ones brackets inaccessible survey. it feels like that is enough to realize an annotation rather than the demo?
Shadi: we try to put very early, some of the inaccessible content may not be useable by all users.
Jennifer: what I envision doing having each page comparison. I would do.
Shadi: we have had that comment from Sylvie also.
Jennifer: brackets might suffice.
Andrew: two words would be clear as an addendum to all the titles (accessible and inaccessible).
<shawn> ACTION: shadi - BAD - bug: page "jumps" when going between accessible & inaccessible pages [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/11-eo-minutes.html#action07]
Shawn: with the page title we need, but breaking the purity of the page is ok. When I go between the inaccessible page and the accessible it jumps the top part jumps.
<shadi> ACTION: Shadi - BAD - consider adding "accessible"/"inaccessible" indicators on the page titles [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/11-eo-minutes.html#action08]
Shawn: I really love the navigation. People can tell where they have been and one thing I would say is the where I am now, the heading is pretty clear, but in the area where I am, there is a pointer thingy, arrow is fairly subtle. Not a big deal if you could make a little more clear in the sub navigation area what page I am on. Not quite enough.
Andrew: the heading is not quite enough here?
<shadi> ACTION: Shadi - BAD - consider adding emphasizing current page in the subnav [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/11-eo-minutes.html#action09]
Shawn: I am focusing on the little box. I am not looking on the page titles. Really nice to have navigation everywhere.
Shadi: I'll do my best. it's an use issue. Small space we have, we'll see if we can do a little more tweaky.
Yeliz: I agree with that it is hard to tell where you are. What about using different colour, may be in yellow?
Shadi: we are pretty sure we won't use another color.
<Andrew> bold + italics for current page?
Shawn: bolding it. Make a box around it?
Shadi: a box is an issue.
Shawn: anything else on this? Can you clarify Shadi what the people look for now, and what to wait for better notification?
Shadi: review the content about the demo, everything on the overview page. That entire page is up for review, and word smoothing, nit picking. Any comments please send in. We welcome comments on the overall navigation. And comments on all reports. comments on visuals let us know. Specifically we don't want comments on the annotations now. We will work in the next few days. They will come in.
Shawn: Shadi I noticed, I do like about the demo integration into the design. A cover page in the WAI site navigation probably called an overview or intro. This could be called demo instead of intro.
<Andrew> shadi: please comment on 1) Overview page; 2) navigation; 3) reports. Please do not look at annotations on individual pages yet
Shadi: good thought. We'll work on that transition as well. Any thoughts on this let me know.
William: does tell you what it is, but not how to use.
Shawn: on the bottom?
<shadi> ACTION: Shadi - BAD - consider title "Overview" vs "About the Demo" (esp for the transition page on the WAI site) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/11-eo-minutes.html#action10]
William: not really tell you use this. How do you use this demo. Something how to go through?
Shawn: make a draft and send to the list.
<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/PWD-Use-Web/2009/
Shawn: we have a draft re-structuring in Preview versions in one big document, Shadi has taken a pass to make a WAI resource or integrated into the site design.
Shadi: this is a really early rough draft. Updating outdated references Andrew has done a lot of work. Please do not look at the contents please don't spend too much time on it. We want feedback on the overall structure of this resource suite. How do they work together. How do they cross reference each other? From a high level perspective.
Helle: in the table of contents, the second bullet, different disabilities affect ...
sharron: not disabilities affects not the disability that causes the inaccessibility.
William: disability of the designer.
Shadi: good point. Refer to an action.
William: I hate to see the alternative and web together. Alternative technology not the web.
<shadi> ACTION: shadi - PWDs-Use-Web - "Different Disabilities that Can Affect Web Accessibility" indicates that disability causes inaccessibility (rather than the context and impact) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/11-eo-minutes.html#action11]
Yeliz: one of the menu items, scenarios of people or scenarios usage.
Shadi: Scenarios or users.
Andrew: just scenario?
... the three words alone hang strangely.
Helle: just users?
Shadi: good comment. Other comments?
<shadi> ACTION: shadi - PWDs-Use-Web - consider "scenarios of people" -> "scenarios of usage" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/11-eo-minutes.html#action12]
Shadi: another issue is mapping of provision. Looks at each scenario and looks at each reference. Any thought on title of Mapping of provisions, any thoughts?
Shawn: mapping of guidelines?
<shadi> ACTION: shadi - PWDs-Use-Web - consider "mapping of provisions" -> "mapping of guidelines" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/11-eo-minutes.html#action13]
William: mapping scenarios to the guidelines.
Shawn: guideline mapping.
Shadi: Always mapping to the guidelines, but I wonder if the accessibility features relates to technology.
Shawn: mapping didn't work well for I think mobile web. Relating to guidelines, relating to standards or technical aspects. A significant edit.
Sharron: applicable guidelines/
<Andrew> shawn: Technical Aspects
Shadi: I like applicable, but the guidelines issue?
Helle: find a common term for all these things?
<Andrew> Guideline Provisions
Sharron: not a short name or navigation, but be clear what it is but not 100% accurate. 90% is guidelines. That is the clearest people would understand, in terms of the navigation, to know what they are getting at in general rather that 100% specific. Any other comments?
<shadi> old version: http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/PWD-Use-Web/2009/Overview-bak.html
Helle: I think it looks better. More usable having these smaller chunks of information than the big document to go through.
Shadi: this was good initial input, have further thoughts at any stage send them in.
Shawn: still at a high level comments for that would be useful.
Helle: about the blue text is yours Andrew? What about green ones?
Andrew: just notes.
<Andrew> scribe: andrew
<shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/bcase/resources#cases
Sharon: nothing specific - will fill out survey and make specific notes
Sharon: haven't clearly demonstrated ROI, did a full redesign and improved not just the accessibility, have put out calls, need to get some funding to do a targeted study to demonstrate benefits
Jennifer: need to get someone who has a client that will commit to document
sharron: we have clients that are under legal requirement to improve accessibility - have asked them if they would participate, but they don't want to make public claims. I thought people would like to get credit - but concerned about being a target
shawn: asked put on the list, but no takers. If we publish, then may get contributions
Jennifer: might lesson the fear factor
shawn: for announcement - not 'finished' but here is a start, please get back to us to contribute more case studies. Calls for contributions are not getting us anywhere with responses
william: not sure why we have to convince people. We just need to talk about the legal position
Jennifer: not worldwide requirement and most happy to take a risk
Sharron: major art centre have great physical and cultural accessibility, but inaccessible website. Then lawyers say the law doesn't apply to us. Trying to convince them to build it into their redesign of the selling module
shawn: a canadian bank has done stuff - think just the accessibility (not a redesign). Hoping they might come good. Anyone want to follow up?
Sharron: sure
<scribe> ACTION: bus case - sharron to contact CA bank (with shawn) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/11-eo-minutes.html#action14]
Shawn: announcements in prep - will share when ready. We have two releases for next week - "Business Case" document on Monday we hope; "Contacting Organisations" document later in the week
andrew: most sites will at least tweak other things even if concentrating on accessibility
Jack: we encourage accessibility as part of he overall design/development process - hard to separate accessibility out in an ROI