<AllanJ> title: UAWG telecon

<scribe> Scribe: JR

<KFord> s/cna/can

JA: Discussing time change for next week

JS: Best to consult world clock

<jeanne> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meeting.html

JA: Other thing is ARIA last call
... Not needed till mid-April
... We will take that up after CSUN

JS: THere is a whole separate ARIA User Agnet doc we should look at

JA: OK
... Next thing is a TPAC at beginning of Nov.
... They want to know which groups are interested
... In Santa Clara
... Before Thanksgiving

MH: I would try to make it

HS: I need to check

SH: Also need to check

JR: Would help if AUWG was also meeting

KF: It's possible

JS: First Q, would everyone like to meet this year?
... Context...so many groups reporting travel restrictions that it may be cancelled or morphed into something else

JA: Should we meet before Dec?

<AllanJ> =1

KF: Yes...they are very productive

JR: +1

JA: +1

HS: +1

JA: OK so when, where?
... TPAC is one option...other ideas?

KF: I could explore hosting it in Redmond

JS: My pers opinion is if we go to W. coast, combining with TPAC might work
... But if TPAC cancelled would like to pursue Redmond
... We could possibly host on East coast

SH: Better for me on East coast of US
... Better to coord so that we are at best spot in our release cycle

JA: Agree
... But i think whenever we held it we'd jump in on lots of work

KF: East coast fine with me too'

JA: The dates would be Nov 2-6
... XHTML2, WCAG, EO, ERT, etc.
... Are meeting.

URI?

JA: Mar. 18 is due date to sign up
... I will put on agenda for next week

<jeanne> ACTION: JA to make a survey item whether or not planning to attend TPAC in Nov [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-ua-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-156 - Make a survey item whether or not planning to attend TPAC in Nov [on Jim Allan - due 2009-03-12].

Review WAI-ALT attribute proposal (HTML5)

<AllanJ> JR: History, HTML5 @alt, WAI review, send proposal to HTML5

<AllanJ> ...terse label is critical - @alt or @arialabledby

<AllanJ> ...still debating: alt="" (backward compatibility), or @ariarole="presentation"

JA: There's be 15-20 WAI people slogging through this

<AllanJ> KF: this is scary, could get really confused

KF: Kind of scary that simple alt might become a lot more complicated

MH: Looking at HTML5, worried about guidnace given on alt

JA: There is history to this....
... The group is trying to come up with a WAI approved approach
... HTML5's use case has been flickr
... So discussions have gone on for thousands of emails
... So the WAI group has been meeting for 6 weeks now...to try to come up with something better

KF: From user agent perspective...support whatever not that hard
... As a group, our first priority to talk from UA perspective...

JA: Basic browsers really don't do fallback....it's ATs do that

Survey Results

http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/

Definition - User Agent

JA: 4 accepts, 1 change
... I proposed A user agent is any software that facilitates end user interaction with Web content it retrieves and renders.

<KFord> I say go with accept the current.

JA: So we'll go with current proposed wording

<jeanne> ACTION: JS to update the definition of User AGent based on the survey of http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/results [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-ua-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-157 - Update the definition of User AGent based on the survey of http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/results [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-03-12].

<AllanJ> JR: discussion of UA definition expansion. Simple email program would not be an UA

KF: Is Google docs a web based user agent?

JR: Prob....def an authoring tool

KF: Or a spreadhseet program

JA: Gmail would be a user agent

<AllanJ> JR: portal that delivers the content, is it the base browser, or is there another interface inside the UA interface

<AllanJ> ...map example, the BASE UA knows nothing about maps, panning and zooming

KF: So are all applications that run inside the web browser user agents

<AllanJ> ...only googlemaps provides the rich interface to the maps

KF: Web-wise applicatios not doing anything either
... IMagine web app (super duper web browser) - 3d web browser
... I would think of that as a UA

SH: So I've sure I've seen a google shell to facilitate Google docs etc

JR: Google chrome?

JA: Then there's Google Gears

MH: Gears still uses the UA for presentation

<Henny> http://labs.mozilla.com/2009/01/design-review-and-windowless-browsing/

JS: What I'm thinking is what aspects of user agents are not covered by WCAG...to see where we really need to provide guidance
... I think about multimedia players
... We can go into more depth
... And Flash

<Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to say what about User Agent that isn't covered by WCAG, that applies to an app.

MH: itunes?

SH: I was just thinking...plugin does own rendering...not pushed to user agent

<AllanJ> JR: what about example of media player

<AllanJ> SH: the embedded player has its own UI separate from UA-UI

<AllanJ> JR: flash movie, has its own controls

<AllanJ> ...plugins are user agents

JR, KF, JA, SH: Discussing what is a user agent

<AllanJ> where is the line.

<AllanJ> KF: baseball game?

<AllanJ> JR: data transport vs webcontent

<AllanJ> KF: what if you have a flash app that lets you take a test

JR: Comes down

JA: Like a plugin

<AllanJ> JR: definition, is changing content types. base-ua know nothing about rdf, and a plugin renders the rdf then a UA

JR: A web-based plugin

SH: If it just did a conversion then its not a user agent

<AllanJ> SH: so if the rdf plugin does not take any input and send it back to the UA then not a UA

JA: two thins i'm hearing...1. A web app provides a unique UI for user interaction that base UA does not know about
... ex. flash movie players that provides it's own pause, play etc
... Other part (2) web apps that communicate back to user agent to do rendering

SH: Let's step back...I'm not sure I like User agents defn
... Are those "ands" or "ors"?
... Between retreive, render, interaction

JS: The criticism at ATIA was that we need to be really clear where the dividing line between WCAG and UAAG.

JA: That's good in concept, but there's maybe a 25% overlap between WCAG and UAAG
... We've gone over it several times.
... So causes a fuzzy gray area
... My concern about Web apps as uAs is AJAX stuff

<AllanJ> JR: ability of AU to get outside of their own data, user takes their settings with them as they go to other sites

<AllanJ> ...Baseball game, can't take your data to a different game

SH: Still re: User Agent...I think would be clearer...A user agent is any software that facilitates end user interaction with Web content including presentation.

<AllanJ> SH: who does the retrieval

<AllanJ> JR: it is your UA, you use it to retrieve stuff to interact with it.

JR: It is "YOUR" "AGENT"

KF: I like what simon says

JA: So if we leave retrieve out
... Is Flickr?
... Is Google docs?

KF: Google docs doesn't facilitate interaction with web content

JA: OK...here at school we have a learning management system
... It's an application that lives inside a browser

SH: As far as I'm concerned the browser is the part that is being used for the end user interaction...if it's just HTML

<AllanJ> JR: agree, how does your definition cut off the application jim described

JA: The part I left out ... I'm in Web 2.0 application with iuts own interface....the user agent doesn't know anything about the controls

JR: Anything in AJAX is a user agent?

SH: No the javascript is interpreted by the browser

<AllanJ> JR: test I use for UA determination. Zoom feature. where does it make sense.

<AllanJ> ...on most webpages, the UA has a zoom feature. If I have a flash with a zoom feature.

SH: I think that test is ok
... If plugin devolves the zoomin to the browser then its not a UA
... JR's example was 2 user agents...the base browser and the application that can zoom maps

JR: So UAAG is going to be requiring zooms, etc. we are wanting to target the right apps

SH: So if I'm handling the user input its me that is the web app

JA: ...

KH: Part of me still says WCAG should not be allowing things totally opaque to user agents
... Diff tests....my test...can I independently go to wherever I want - get whatever content I want...so not walled garden

<AllanJ> JR: not so clear cut, may capture some some stuff, but not others.

SH: Test....if input is captured and processed and output is generated without reference to another ua

<AllanJ> ...application would be making claim as a user agent. Our web-application-UA will use these facilities from the base-UA and provide all of these other things.

JR: Actually we draw the big circle around the web app that's a UA + the base UA

KH...

SH: In Google example...what about partial conformance....but everything else develoves to browser

<AllanJ> JR: basebrowser uses the OS platform to handle lots of functions.

KF: Example of Facebook and all those little apps
... Next steps?

JA: In our status of the document...we do ask about Web apps as user agents.
... I don't think we have enough info

KF: Having the context of this discussion would help

SH: There could be 2 steps...(1) do they have the ability to be a user ...can you eat input and generateoutput indepenednently...(2) do you actually do that or do you devolve

JA: Can we take this to the list

<scribe> ACTION: JA to Look at WCAG 2.0 to compare with UAAG2 re: overlaps [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-ua-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-158 - Look at WCAG 2.0 to compare with UAAG2 re: overlaps [on Jim Allan - due 2009-03-12].

JA: On line we need use cases
... Makes more sense to have some target apps to pound on

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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

FAILED: s/cna/can/
Found Scribe: JR
Inferring ScribeNick: JR
Default Present: kford, AllanJ, Mark_Hakkinen, sharper, Jeanne, JR, Henny
Present: kford AllanJ Mark_Hakkinen sharper Jeanne JR Henny
Regrets: Alan_C. Judy_B.

WARNING: No meeting title found!
You should specify the meeting title like this:
<dbooth> Meeting: Weekly Baking Club Meeting

Got date from IRC log name: 05 Mar 2009
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-ua-minutes.html
People with action items: ja js

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