Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
06 Feb 2009

Action 353 aria-owns

RS: complete?

<clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/353

s/Action 553/353

JC: not had time to work on this

RS: when put out for review, MC

MC: monday

RS: ok
... JC, can you get yours in on monday
... monday will close these out and see if sufficiently addressed

JC: some already approved and can be added to draft

Action 341

RS: editorial - aria-labelledby instead of aria-label

JC: ready for monday

nameFrom addition to spec

RS: done?

JC: no

RS: have wording for it, right?

JC: yes

RS: hold 348 until monday

double-check with a fine tooth comb

RS: "Issue 279 Double-check attribute permission and keyboard navigation in

SVG 1.2T vs. what ARIA requires "

RS: not an ARIA 1.0 issue, but SVG issue

MC: spec cross-review issue

GJR: http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/SVG
... can assume action item

RS: focus is addressed

MC: change product to spec reviews

http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/SVG

RS: reassigning to GJR; associated product now "spec reviews"
... This does not seem like an ARIA 1.0 issue but rather an SVG issue as these are host language related. tabindex became an HTML 5 extension and not ARIA 1.0.

Issue 36 Prepare for Conformance assurance for WAI-ARIA specifications and Best Practices

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/36

RS: don't recommend close per se, but do we meet this as far as LC goes

MC: in pretty good shape for LC; this is testing-specific -- need to work on getting tests up
... DTD is complete and accurate; added schema implementation that Shane McCarron prepared

RS: in spec?

MC: in spec currently as dependencies
... XHTML WG will make available as DTD and schemas in their namespace

RS: great -- glad that they are in appendix
... based on HTML4?

MC: XHTML 1.1 modules

GJR: correct

RS: change to tabindex?

MC: cede to james

JC: implicit attribute values that differ from default attribute values
... haspopup value=true -- some live regions have their own default values -- does this adversely affect the spec?
... would like to be more explicit than current verbiage in spec
... implicit attribute values for each role need to be clearly machine parseable
... will put in pointer

<jcraig> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/102

RS: how adversely impact spec?

JC: something that needs to be an issue as long as developing schema

RS: Cooper, do we need to do something in DTD to say haspopup should be default?

MC: can't express in DTD
... might be possible in schema -- shane can help
... good point and good idea, but not sure how complicated task will be

JC: table of roles and their descriptions?

MC: add row that says "overrides default value of state" or something similar

JC: yes, with links

MC: don't object to approach -- want to work with JC on structure so can key off for generation

<jcraig> Implicit Values: aria-live="assertive", aria-foo="bar"

MC: schema - hesitant to get done by monday -- non-normative, so doesn't need to be held to monday deadline -- not normative change so can effect later

JC: will propose spec change for monday

<scribe> ACTION: Cooper - investigate modification of schema to address default values for particular roles [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/06-pf-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-358 - - investigate modification of schema to address default values for particular roles [on Michael Cooper - due 2009-02-13].

RS: want assertive - thought live was "polite" by default

MC: certain cases where default is different from normal default

<clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/#alert

<jcraig> Implicit values specific to a role are normative, so they should be listed in the characteristics table (and in RDF/DTD, etc)

<jcraig> Examples include alert[1], which has an implicit aria-live value of assertive, and combobox[2] which has an implicit aria-haspopup value of true. Since these override the default value for that property, they should be listed in the characteristics tables (and also in a machine-readable format).

<jcraig> 1. http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/#alert

<jcraig> 2. http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/#combobox

JC: something that should be in characteristics table

RS: assumed default value for aria-live -- ok
... would be part of normative spec, right?

MC: editorial, not normative change

JC: already part of normative spec

RS: let us review them on monday

MC: editorial, but can look at it on monday

Action 99 - Autosubmit

<jcraig> ACTION: jcraig to add implicit values to spec (in characteristics tables per role) See ISSUE-102 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/06-pf-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-359 - Add implicit values to spec (in characteristics tables per role) See ISSUE-102 [on James Craig - due 2009-02-13].

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2009JanMar/0253.html

<Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to ask if the dtd includes the implicit attrs per role. i filed an issue earlier this week.

<MichaelC> ACTION: Cooper to research if implicit attr values can be expressed in Schema [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/06-pf-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-360 - Research if implicit attr values can be expressed in Schema [on Michael Cooper - due 2009-02-13].

<davidb> http://www.w3schools.com/jsref/jsref_onchange.asp

GJR: can either leave to editors or can rewrite it as proposal

RS: will work on it over the weekend

<Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to answer the question about tabindex: the DTD adds it, the schema doesn't yet (overlooked) but I made a note to fix that

MC: tabindex - DTD module adds tabindex to all elements in HTML; schema currently doesn't -- oversight that will be fixed today

RS: can we close issue?
... think GJR addressed it, have to wordsmith a bit

<clown> +1 to close issue as long as action remains.

JS: [can't hear]

<Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to say Re: GJR's concern about maxlength: What if we added an ARIA 2 issue to add a maxlength value for aria-invalid. The spec already states "For future

GJR: need an ARIA 2.0 collection bin

close ISSUE-10

<trackbot> ISSUE-10 Shortcuts that submit a transaction on field action can violate "user must remain in command of dialog" closed

<jcraig> From spec: "For future expansion, the aria-invalid attribute is an enumerated type. Any value not recognized in the list of allowed values MUST be treated as if the value true had been provided. If the attribute is not present, or its value is false, or its value is an empty string, the default value of false applies."

RESOLUTION: Issue 10 closed

MC: need to create issue to expand type for valid

RS: MC, please open ARIA 2.0 issue

JC: add one for autosubmit, as well?
... on a select control with autosubmit, allow user to examine before triggering onChange event

RS: add to ARIA 2.0 issue list

Action 247: Provide a technique to simulate pressing checkboxes and buttons

RS: didn't get to it

Action 339: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/339

RS: pinged JRG about this today

Action 192: Create a 3X3 matrix of prose describing the use of politeness levels

RS: how to handle channel in all situations; channel been removed and so has value so don't think need 3x3 matrix
... for ARIA 2.0 need to fine-tune live regions
... propose we close this issue

<janina> +1

plus 1

<richardschwerdtfe> +1

MC: plus 1

<clown> +`

<jcraig> +1

<clown> +1

RESOLUTION: live regions will be fine-tuned in ARIA 2.0; this closes this issue for now

Action 300: Confirm IE8 behaviour with CSS attribute selectors (i.e.does it refresh) - Tony Ross

RS: is tony on the call?
... anyone check ie8 behavior with CSS selector - does styling get refreshed automatically

JC: across-the-board major browser problem

RS: not an issue for FireFox

JC: on the fly change, right?

RS: if change attribute on element where CSS selector for it, reflects change in Mozilla but not IE8

<davidb> hi 1 sec

JC: work-around in browsers is to just toggle a class name

RS: action was for tony to come back with report
... if david thinks fixed, ok -- don't like workarounds, should be automatic

<davidb> skype hung

RS: does impact best practices
... if styling to aria properties, have to comment on this in BPG

MC: have a bit of leeway

RS: davidb, have you looked into this?

MC: not a LC issue

<jcraig> [aria-checked="true"]:before { background-image: url(checked.gif); }

<jcraig> Note: At the time of this writing, this CSS example, while technically correct, will not redraw styles properly in some browsers if the attribute's value is changed dynamically. It may be necessary to toggle a classname, or otherwise to force the browser to redraw the styles properly.

2 MINUTES TO TOP OF HOUR

RS: 2 hour meeting

MC: zakim only set up for one hour -- can all hang up and restart zakim if someone can't get in

RS: move away from issue until david gets back on
... does refresh of styling change automatically when CSS selectors used in IE8

DB: haven't confirmed it is fixed yet

RS: will wait for report back from Tony Ross

Issue 64: Most text within an element with 'application' role is explanatory, use @labelledby and @describedby to say how

RS: in BPG -- steps for defining: require labelling of region landmarks
... could add step between 4 and 5 - if regional landmark is an application, reference as application using aria-describedby property
... reasonable step?
... prose describing application, can set relationship using aria-describedby

JC: what is special about this?

RS: aaron wanted to provide guidance to app developers
... provide additional guidance?
... if not, can close issue

JC: seems redundant
... applies to anything, not just applications

GJR: agree with JC

MC: neutral, but point of BPG is to point out what think author should do -- if don't think authors will use describedby, worth pointing out, but i could go either way

RS: do we want to close issue 64 without any change to BPG?

<davidb> -1

<jcraig> neutral

<clown> -0.5

RS: +/- 1

DB: don't have verbiage in front of me; if aaron reporting problem, probably getting confused people

<scribe> ACTION: RichS - add a step in section 3.2.6.1 to address assigning a describedby reference to protect prose in an application [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/06-pf-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - RichS

<scribe> ACTION: Rich - add a step in section 3.2.6.1 to address assigning a describedby reference to protect prose in an application [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/06-pf-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-361 - - add a step in section 3.2.6.1 to address assigning a describedby reference to protect prose in an application [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2009-02-13].

RS: close issue 64?

DB: as long as have example

RS: redundant, but important

RESOLUTION: close issue 64 per action 361

Issue 47 Write Permission

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/47

RS: not addressed; BP issue - think can close issue 47, but associated action still outstanding

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/130

<scribe> ACTION: 130 to Discuss Write Permission in GOK Context [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/06-pf-minutes.html#action07]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 130

www.gok.ca

GOK = GNOME On-Screen Keyboard (http://www.gok.ca)

DB: apps that change in response to ARIA attributes, need an event to say attribute change, so active descendant so should update right child

RS: confused -- IE and FF have DOMAttributeModify that ocurs
... implementor's guide issue

DB: right
... encourage people to write apps that respond to these events?

RS: write permission -- in GOK context, if have an attribute that has an ascending or descending, OSK should provide ascending/descending button to trigger it

OSK = on-screen keyboard

RS: expand might execute a click on a particular element based on attribute; does this belong in BPG or implementor's guide?
... provide accessible action (depends upon API) -- do we need something here?
... this is an implementor's guide issue -- for specific writeable properties, tell browser what to do to control OSK
... agree? disagree?

<jcraig> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Dec/0103.html

DB: agree - wondering if already covered essence of that -- activedescendant - if allow to be modified not through UA interaction, has to be DOMAttributeModified mutation event, which HTML authors will need to consider
... issue is about Best Practices

RS: could write text in best practices what to do when attributes change, but think already covered

<Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to talk link to the DOMAttributeModified thread

<jcraig> From the email linked above "For example, on behalf of a disabled user, an assistive technology may tell a user agent to update a property in the DOM, but without DOM mutation events, there isn't any way for the UA to notify the web application script that the change has occurred, effectively making some web app controls inoperable."

JC: brought up issue a few times
... browser to notify application script -- application script can't change without a call; at least in BPG have to account for this - need text that says "this is way should be done" -- allows robustness

RS: need to upgrade section - needs aria- before properties
... want to say 2 things: 1) be able to trigger/follow attribute modified event whenever change

JC: yes

RS: not generate mutation events

JC: mutation events best way to track this kind of thing in UA; can check property to see if changed, but for app to be notified of DOM mutation needs means of notifying app
... prose i think should be there: "currently this is how to do without DOM mutation events" -- once all browsers support, using mutation events will be the best way to make webb appplications robust, as required by WCAG2

<janina> scribenic janina

<janina> scribe: janina

<scribe> ScribeNick: janina

rich: do people agree? I hear only silence!

<oedipus> [fyi] GJR can't get back onto bridge ("conference is restricted at this time"

<jcraig> ACTION: rich to change section 8 of BPG to address ideal use of mutation events [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/06-pf-minutes.html#action08]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-362 - Change section 8 of BPG to address ideal use of mutation events [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2009-02-13].

Try 0

<oedipus> davidb, try http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/users/my

<oedipus> and http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/changelog

<davidb> oedipus, thanks!

<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/resolutions

<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/agenda

<davidb> oedipus, i can't add things to mytracker :(

RESOLUTION: close issue 67

<oedipus> davidb, use the nav panel on the tracker page to get your "My Tracker" link

<davidb> oedipus, did that

<oedipus> hmm....

<davidb> oedipus, maybe that error i get is borking it

<oedipus> help at: http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/

<oedipus> davidb, you need to get added to http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users

<oedipus> no, you are listed there

<oedipus> davidb, http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users/42319

agreement that continuing with friday calls is currently unnecessary

rich: james, do you have design pattern for tree example?

jcraig: my action on the spec is completed except for a subsidiary browser impl issue ... will create action to do a design spec ...

<jcraig> ACTION: jcraig to create tree design pattern for bpg [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/06-pf-minutes.html#action09]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-363 - Create tree design pattern for bpg [on James Craig - due 2009-02-13].

rich: re moving codetalks examples to w3 space -- where are we?

michael: will take more than a few weeks -- need time to explore the techs do determine appropriate setup
... suggestions welcome

rich: talk to shane mccaren
... what about the examples

michael: will be following up on that today
... can someone take ownership on contacting contributors?

jcraig: seems there's an ok creative commons on the wiki

<Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to say that i can work on a RelaxNG schema with shane or anyone else who wants to work on one

michael: could use some help though ..

rich: mine and aarons are ok

<jcraig> hmmm... don't find creative commons license. maybe i was mistaken

michael: david, can you send an email to the codetalks people asking for clearance to w3c?

davidb: no problem, can you send language?

michael: yes

<oedipus> jcraig, on front page "Content is available under Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported"

rich: excellent

<jcraig> great

<davidb> go team!

rich: looks like we're done until monday

<davidb> :D

<oedipus> davidb, michaelc, let me know what i can do to assist

<jcraig> CodeTalks license http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/

<davidb> oedipus, thanks

<davidb> oedipus, can you send me the w3c liason email address?

<davidb> jcraig, thats for the wiki. hopefully it extends to linked svn files

<oedipus> davidb, wai-liaison@w3.org

<davidb> oedipus, ty

<oedipus> archive: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/wai-liaison

<davidb> richardschwerdtfe, keep on rockin

rich: thanking gregory for auto submit!

<oedipus> thank you!