http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/charter5draft
The most important thing about the charter is to scope work we expect to do in next 3 years.
Key changes: Frequency of F2F, Deliverables, and participation.
To Do: Fill in scope; expect to review soon.
Alan:[comments to the list]:
Explain why WAI has an E&O while others may not
Shawn: In recent meetings, AC very pleased with WAI-EO, would like to see other groups have education and outreach efforts
<shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/EO-Deliverables.html#done
<scribe> ACTION: Add link in charter to previous accomplishments. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/11-eo-minutes.html#action01]
Alan suggests sentences to intro impact of EO actions
Sharron cautions that Charter may not be the place for it, it's dry, not a sales doc
<shawn> ACTION: Shawn. Charter. consider putting some wording about our successes - either here or there: and linking to http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/EO-Deliverables.html#done [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/11-eo-minutes.html#action02]
<scribe> ACTION: Shawn. Charter. Correct "Deliberables" spelling in first bullet: Success Criteria [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/11-eo-minutes.html#action03]
<achuter> What I said was as far as I can remember: Describe the social (ie, non-technical) impact the group has had. The good effect the group has had in getting the word out about what is otherwise a rather technical subject for many people.
Wayne suggests that we form an unfinished business taskforce; could survey unfinished business, prioritize items, and cross-off list [those no longer relevant]
Shawn agrees that it needs to be done. Wayne has some time in June.
Shawn points out that previous charter had 4 times / year meeting Face-to-Face, though we averaged 1 or 2 over recent years. Shawn talked with Judy about F2F in June versus taking the time to work on documents -- rather than organizing the F2F, which takes a fair amount of time.
Considering some bigger teleconferences, like 4 hour working session over 2 days; several voices of consent
Agreement on "one or more" face-to-face meetings annually.
Wayne suggests picking one big conference in US and Europe each to do smaller face-to-face; Shawn agrees to look for opportunities to convene with limited effort spent on logistics.
Possibility in Beijing at WWW2008?
Shawn plans to put together remote meetings in coming months, particularly to move forward with mobile web overlap doc that Alan & Yeliz have been working on.
Members should watch list for questionnaire on timing of remote meetings, F2F, etc
Wayne reminds that Long Beach is a member and would provide meeting facilities if timed with CSUN.
Shawn cautions that SXSW is timed very close to CSUN.
If others interested in hosting, let Shawn know.
Henny checking to see about hosting co-located with TechShare.
Alan reminds WWW2009 will be in Madrid about this time of year -- one to consider
<scribe> ACTION: Shawn. Questionnaire about meetings. Include question on suggestions for other F2F times and conferences with which we could co-locate. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/11-eo-minutes.html#action04]
Alan's comment about the deliverables: The deliverables section could try to give some idea of the work involved in each deliverable, although I can't think how. Maybe some one-letter abbreviations might help.
List is overwhelming. Any way (symbols, colors, etc...) to make less daunting.
Why is it in the charter in this much detail?
Purpose is to give WAI and other WGs direction of what we're working on and to know if they agree.
Yeliz recommends grouping by titles rather than topics
Where title indicates what work is to be done.
Shawn observes that many are updating; what if clearly marked what is NEW. General agreement expressed.
Should we indicate which are independent work and which are joint development or maintenance?
Sections: 1 ... 2. EO will review documents from other working groups...
Mobile web ones def. need indicator. Are doing jointly with MWBP group
scribe: the overlap docs that Alan & Yeliz are working on
Should say somewhere, looking ahead to horizon, what other groups are doing that we'll need to be involved in. Suggested to include in scope.
Lisa asked if we have a place to explain how WAI relates to other standards (ISO, CEN, Sec 508).
Shawn says we could cover under "other web accessibility outreach..."
<scribe> ACTION: Shawn. Deliverables Plan. Add possible new item explaining how WCAG fits within the other standards. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/11-eo-minutes.html#action05]
<achuter> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/Drafts/BestPractices-2.0/ED-mobile-bp2-20080327
<scribe> ACTION: Shawn. Agenda. Encourage people to get our hand-outs distributed at other conferences. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/11-eo-minutes.html#action06]
Dependencies means "we can't do our work till group X does action Y"
Should EO review everything W3C publishes? Would be good idea, but committing to it in the charter is too stringent an obligation.
Shawn asks what people think about the Participation requirements. Is 4 hrs per week in general and 1 day per week for editors in specific enough to enable us to get our work done?
Verbal agreement - No objections
Shawn posting updated version with placeholders of some discussion items.
Focus is on "Reasons for Adopting WAI-ARIA section"
<shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-primer/#reasons
<shawn> scribenick:hswan
<shawn> scribe: Henny
Lisa: The PFWG editors have thought through
comments from EO after some thrashing about. They want to
... Trying to show how WAI ARIA works with WCAG 1 and 2 and Web 2.0 so want
to know if this came across.
... They were trying to show how complinace with WCAG 1 cuts back on
usability of it.
... For example in WCAG 1 you switch off style sheets and menus are at the
bottom.
Wayne: I had trouble with that section turning off style sheets. Some of us turn off all styles offered.
Lisa: If you've turned off the style sheets you've blown that. That;'s why that criterion of wcag 1 doesn't work in a web 2.0 world.
Shawn: You blow usability not accessibility.
Lisa: ok you improve for this percentage but not the other percentage.
Wayn: but the styles don't work.
Lisa:The argument is that some measures to
comply with WCAG 1 in Web 2.0 actually downgrade usability
... with wcag 1 you can do things that cut back on usability not
accessibility therefore improving usability of all users moving to WCAG 1 and
ARIA is the way to go.
Yeliz: The document is about ARIA, not a discussion of using WCAG 1 or 2.
Lisa: but you need to clarify which, 1 or 2, works.
Wayne: Could be captured in a sentence, just say WCAG 2 is better.
Section much better than before.
Shawn: Needs to be discussed elsewhere.
<scribe> ACTION: Shawn to WAI ARIA Primer: Take the discussion about WCAG 1.0 and 2.0 to other groups. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/11-eo-minutes.html#action07]
Wayne: I'd like the discussion about styles to be addressed.
Yeliz: The reference is in the second part of
section three.
... "In addition, WCAG 1.0 requires that content be renderable with Cascading
Style Sheets turned off in the browser. This approach creates the following
general usability problems:"
Wayne: Why doesn't WCAG 2.0 have the same
requirement as 1.3.1.
... 1.3.1 Information and relationships can be programatically determined or
available in text.
Lisa: You can comply with 1.3.1 but make it less usable with headings at the bottom. Richard gave an example that showed this.
Wayne: Maybe this one is not a good example.
Shawn: Let's go through and gather other issues.
<shawn> Henny: expect to see a bulleted list of reasons
<lisap> Maybe like a features and benefits piece....so the bullets are the features, and a sentence underneath that quantifies that benefit.
Shawn: what if we had a seperate one as a short bulleted list.
<shawn> ACTION: Shawn. Add to Deliverables Planning, for consideration - why adopt WAI-ARIA short presentation [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/11-eo-minutes.html#action08]
Lisa: I think the information in the pros is valuable but agree that this is a long section so a bulleted section at the top that would help. There needs to be something to get some quick value out of it right away.
<lisap> With picture, bracket out reasons for the example
Wayne: Reasons and examples are bracketed out. Examples are really important.
<lisap> Wayne emphasizes that the example is really important for illustrating the tree and impact of ARIA
Yeliz: A comment about the figure lables to be "With" and "Without" ARIA.
Lisa: I agree.
Shawn: Anything else
Yeliz: In the previous version there were sections on business and technical benefits.
<shawn> ACTION: Lisa. Primer. In text labels in the examples, remove WCAG 1 /2 and show WITH / WITHOUT ARIA [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/11-eo-minutes.html#action09]
Yeliz: The examples are good but very technical. To get the business benefits you really have to read through it. The last three bullets are good and need flagging.
<shawn> ACTION: Lisa. Primer. Consider subheadings "Technical Benefits" and "Business Benefits" (to highlight the great bullets at the end) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/11-eo-minutes.html#action10]
Lisa: Originally the Primer was for developers and decision makers. I would definitely consider modifying this.
<lisapACTION: Lisa. Primer. Add the subheadings back in for Technical and Business Reasons for adopting...
Shawn: So there could be two sub headings under "Reasons for adopting WAI-ARIA".
Henny: I read the number 3 as part of the heading i.e 3 reasons for adopting wai-aria
Shawn: This can be changed
<shawn> ACTION: Lisa. Primer, et al. Get Michael to add delimiting punctuation following heading numbers to avoid reading "Three Reasons for adotping" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/11-eo-minutes.html#action11]
Shawn: Any comments on other areas of the
Primer?
... Agenda item 2.b High-level suggestions to improve the understandablilty
of the WAI-ARIA Best Practices
Various: Not enough time to read.
Lisa: There is a group looking at DHTML Style Guides. Has direct implications for ARIA but not documenting parts and pieces.
Shawn: [Reminder to members] Please keep your availability updated [to help with agenda planning].
<shawn> ACTION: all keep updated Availability for Upcoming EOWG Teleconferences http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/availability/ [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/11-eo-minutes.html#action12]
Shawn: Keep comments coming on WAI ARIA