IRC log of tagmem on 2008-03-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:50:52 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #tagmem
16:50:52 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/03/27-tagmem-irc
16:50:59 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #tagmem
16:51:08 [Stuart]: zakim, this will be tag
16:51:08 [Zakim]: ok, Stuart; I see TAG_Weekly()1:00PM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
16:51:32 [Stuart]: Stuart has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/03/27-agenda
16:51:56 [Stuart]: Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/03/27-agenda
16:52:15 [Stuart]: Scribe: Ashok Malhotra
16:52:21 [Stuart]: Chair: Stuart Williams
16:52:33 [Stuart]: Meeting: TAG Weekly
16:57:30 [Zakim]: TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has now started
16:57:38 [Zakim]: +??P0
16:57:40 [Stuart]: zakim, ?? is me
16:57:40 [Zakim]: +Stuart; got it
16:57:49 [Zakim]: + +1.617.538.aaaa
16:59:11 [timbl]: timbl has joined #tagmem
16:59:22 [Ashok]: Ashok has joined #tagmem
16:59:34 [Zakim]: +TimBL
17:00:28 [Zakim]: +Ashok_Malhotra
17:00:52 [timbl]: Zakim, who is making noise?
17:01:04 [Zakim]: timbl, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Stuart (4%), +1.617.538.aaaa (89%), Ashok_Malhotra (36%)
17:01:10 [Stuart]: scribenick: Ashok_Malhotra
17:01:37 [timbl]: we can provide a telemarketer if you really need to, Norm.
17:01:45 [ht]: zakim, please call ht-781
17:01:45 [Zakim]: ok, ht; the call is being made
17:01:46 [Zakim]: +Ht
17:02:18 [Zakim]: +Noah_Mendelsohn
17:02:28 [Zakim]: +Norm
17:02:40 [noah]: noah has joined #tagmem
17:02:51 [noah]: zakim, who is here?
17:02:51 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Stuart, +1.617.538.aaaa, TimBL, Ashok_Malhotra, Ht, Noah_Mendelsohn, Norm
17:02:53 [Zakim]: On IRC I see noah, Ashok, timbl, Zakim, RRSAgent, Stuart, Norm, ht, trackbot-ng, DanC
17:03:27 [Stuart]: zakim, +1 is Jonathan
17:03:27 [Zakim]: +Jonathan; got it
17:04:17 [Ashok]: topic: convene
17:04:31 [Ashok]: Zakim, who is here?
17:04:31 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Stuart, Jonathan, TimBL, Ashok_Malhotra, Ht, Noah_Mendelsohn, Norm
17:04:33 [Zakim]: On IRC I see noah, Ashok, timbl, Zakim, RRSAgent, Stuart, Norm, ht, trackbot-ng, DanC
17:04:51 [Ashok]: Dan sent regrets
17:04:53 [dorchard]: dorchard has joined #tagmem
17:05:17 [Zakim]: +Dave_Orchard
17:05:41 [Ashok]: Noah: AOB item -- could you send travel directions for f2f?
17:06:27 [Ashok]: Stuart: Any objections to approving minutes from last week
17:06:51 [Ashok]: No objections. Minutes from last week are approved
17:07:05 [Zakim]: -Jonathan
17:07:05 [Ashok]: Next meeting April 3 -- regrets from HT
17:07:06 [Zakim]: + +1.617.253.aabb
17:07:12 [Stuart]: zakim, +1 is Jonathan
17:07:12 [Zakim]: +Jonathan; got it
17:07:27 [Ashok]: Regrets from Tim and Stuart for 4/24
17:07:39 [Ashok]: Norm will scribe next week
17:08:32 [Ashok]: SW: We now have all the minutes ....
17:09:51 [Ashok]: Problems about minutes being in two places
17:10:42 [Ashok]: SW: I am willing to accept the places where the minutes have landed
17:10:45 [jar]: jar has joined #tagmem
17:11:58 [Ashok]: SW: Propose we accept minutes subject to Jonathan's changes being included
17:12:29 [Stuart]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2008Mar/0139.html
17:12:32 [timbl]: b
17:12:33 [jar]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2008Mar/0139.html
17:12:48 [Ashok]: HT: No objection
17:13:33 [Ashok]: RESOLUTION: f2f minutes approved subject to Jonathan's changes being incorporated
17:14:20 [jar]: zakim, who is on the call
17:14:20 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'who is on the call', jar
17:14:39 [Norm]: Zakim, who is on the call?
17:14:39 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Stuart, TimBL, Ashok_Malhotra, Ht, Noah_Mendelsohn, Norm, Dave_Orchard, Jonathan
17:14:58 [Ashok]: ACTION: Henry, Norm, Dave -- revise minutes from f2f with Jonathan's changes
17:14:58 [trackbot-ng]: Sorry, couldn't find user - Henry,
17:15:25 [Ashok]: ACTION: Henry S, Norm, Dave -- revise minutes from f2f with Jonathan's changes
17:15:26 [trackbot-ng]: Created ACTION-127 - S, Norm, Dave -- revise minutes from f2f with Jonathan's changes [on Henry S. Thompson - due 2008-04-03].
17:16:20 [Ashok]: Topic: Item 3 on Agenda Issue 56 -- Abbreviated URI's
17:16:33 [Ashok]: HT: They have been waiting for this
17:17:27 [Ashok]: Draft from HT ... subsequentlt revised
17:17:49 [Ashok]: s/subsequentlt/subsequently/
17:18:09 [ht]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2008Mar/0093.html
17:18:47 [Ashok]: Original wording
17:18:50 [noah]: Second para:
17:18:50 [noah]: In this connection we find the prose about CURIEs the current RDFA
17:18:51 [noah]: spec. [2] troubling.
17:18:58 [noah]: Is there a typo in that?
17:19:06 [Stuart]: q?
17:19:20 [noah]: Should that be >in the current RDFa spec<?
17:19:26 [ht]: yes
17:19:30 [noah]: tnx
17:20:04 [timbl]: " If you really think you must allow for not only the use of CURIEs,
17:20:04 [timbl]: but of the union of [-form CURIEs with URIs, in new specs etc.,
17:20:04 [timbl]: then you should at least note that this involves a hostage to
17:20:05 [timbl]: fortune with respect to future versions of the URI spec, which
17:20:05 [timbl]: might conceivably introduce URIs with initial square brackets.
17:20:05 [timbl]: "
17:21:13 [Ashok]: Tim: URI's will not start with [ ... no need to say this
17:21:31 [Zakim]: +Raman
17:22:03 [Ashok]: Noah: I agree to removing it
17:22:17 [Ashok]: HT: Happy to remove
17:23:08 [timbl]: "We would _much_ prefer a proposal which made clear that it was only
17:23:08 [timbl]: addressing the need for an abbreviated URI format in non-XML
17:23:08 [timbl]: languages, or new XML languages, or new contexts within old XML
17:23:08 [timbl]: languages, where _only_ such abbreviated forms are allowed."
17:23:56 [ht]: q+ to query the IRI parallel
17:24:19 [Ashok]: Tim: I'm worried about pushing them down the path of ... only non-XML or new XML languages
17:24:34 [Norm]: Practically, this means *requiring* the square brackets, right?
17:24:42 [timbl]: no IRI consensus ... ah
17:24:48 [Stuart]: ack ht
17:24:48 [Zakim]: ht, you wanted to query the IRI parallel
17:24:56 [Ashok]: TVR: Agrees
17:25:22 [timbl]: q?
17:25:28 [Ashok]: HT: Then we need to go to IETF and say "revise URI spec"
17:25:48 [Norm]: q+ to observe that CURIEs don't rely on XML Namespaces either
17:26:33 [noah]: q+ to say IRIs and CURIE's are different because of prefix bindings
17:27:10 [timbl]: q+
17:27:13 [Ashok]: HT: But I don't want to do it ... URI's are just fine. Case has not been made to change the was HTML is written
17:27:48 [Ashok]: HT: There is a case for folks whi are authoring N3 by hand ...
17:27:52 [timbl]: q+ to point out there is a serious requirement for RDFa .. and this turns out to have implications on HTML atributes
17:27:55 [Stuart]: ack norm
17:27:55 [Zakim]: Norm, you wanted to observe that CURIEs don't rely on XML Namespaces either
17:28:43 [Ashok]: NW: It's a new kind of abbreviation for URIs
17:29:02 [Stuart]: ack noah
17:29:02 [Zakim]: noah, you wanted to say IRIs and CURIE's are different because of prefix bindings
17:30:21 [ht]: HTML _has_ a 'prefix' mechanism, which is the base URI mechanism -- works in HTML and XHTML
17:30:29 [Stuart]: ack timbl
17:30:29 [Zakim]: timbl, you wanted to point out there is a serious requirement for RDFa .. and this turns out to have implications on HTML atributes
17:30:35 [ht]: I look forward to hearing from Timbl what the RDFa requirement is
17:30:59 [Ashok]: Tim: The reinvention of namesapces is a separate bug
17:31:15 [ht]: q+ to agree with the way TimBL started
17:35:43 [timbl]: TimBL: this is one of hte many cases in which we havea tradeoff between the eventual clenliness of the system abnd the compatibility with history. For the sake of posterity, we should have one type of attribute, one routine to parse it which will in future accept [Curie] . For history, we will ban the use of these in any attributesd defined today. neither situation is ideal.
17:36:37 [Ashok]: HT: The other impt thing you said people are going to wrire RDFa in the same way as they write N3 now ...
17:37:01 [timbl]: TimBL: if people are going to write RDFa like they write RDF/XML or N3 today, then they will use many namespaces (10-20) and use ach oe many times, so they
17:37:16 [Stuart]: ack ht
17:37:16 [Zakim]: ht, you wanted to agree with the way TimBL started
17:37:17 [Ashok]: HT: by hand using URIs from multiple domains which require multiple prefixes
17:37:19 [timbl]: really need namespaces, or the document becaoems large and unreadable.
17:37:54 [Ashok]: Tim: Not only nhand authoring affect readability and length of file
17:38:28 [Ashok]: Not only hand authoring also affects readability and length of file
17:38:51 [dorchard]: Maybe use EXI would solve the length problem for machines :-)
17:39:01 [noah]: q+ to say, this makes me wonder how hard to push back
17:39:10 [Ashok]: HT: Remembering when to type [ ] and when not will be a huge pain
17:39:13 [timbl]: Having to remember when you can use [] and when you can't , in other words when a given attribute was historically introduced, is a real pain.
17:39:24 [dorchard]: I'm a bit worried about which optimizations this is really for.
17:39:53 [timbl]: It is very tempting to design other solutions in this call.
17:40:52 [Stuart]: q?
17:41:38 [timbl]: When was the last time that people looked at mount point type use of virtual schemas as abbreviations for URIs, in other words declare that the prefix and the schem name are in the same space?
17:41:46 [Stuart]: ack noah
17:41:46 [Zakim]: noah, you wanted to say, this makes me wonder how hard to push back
17:41:54 [Ashok]: HT: We agree RDF languages need this ... it shd be allowed to proceed
17:42:05 [timbl]: @prefix doi: <http://h.doi.org/lookup/>.
17:42:47 [Ashok]: Noah: I don't see a way to do this for the scope they are going for
17:43:29 [Ashok]: Moah: If it was only for XML language I ws have some trepidation ... N3 is not an XML languages
17:43:39 [Ashok]: s/Moah/Noah/
17:44:41 [Stuart]: q?
17:44:46 [Ashok]: Noah: Can we say "use it only where there is a need ... not a universal solution"
17:45:29 [Stuart]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2008Mar/0069
17:45:38 [Ashok]: SW: Can we agree on everything except the 3rd item?
17:46:16 [Ashok]: Tim: Instead of removing can we point out the problem in both directions
17:47:17 [Ashok]: SW: We need some text we can say yea or nay to
17:48:57 [Ashok]: Noah: When you try to generalize it you get into real trouble
17:49:25 [Ashok]: Noah: If you apply genarlly you will get more breakage
17:49:46 [timbl]: "One can imagine an alternative proposal which made clear that it was only
17:49:46 [timbl]: addressing the need for an abbreviated URI format in non-XML
17:49:48 [timbl]: languages, or new XML languages, or new contexts within old XML
17:49:48 [ht]: How about this: "The TAG has not converged in its discussion about the pros and cons of the [-CURIE and its proposed use. We will working on input for you on that issue -- in the meantime please do not assume that silence gives consent with respect to that aspect of the draft."
17:49:50 [timbl]: languages, where _only_ such abbreviated forms are allowed. That
17:49:52 [timbl]: is, a position taken _against_ any
17:49:54 [timbl]: possibility the CURIEs might be used where URIs are called for in
17:49:57 [timbl]: XML languages today. It would though have to acknowledge the possible negative
17:49:58 [timbl]: consequences of success in going down this path, namely that
17:50:00 [timbl]: ordinary users will not understand that the [-CURIE is not a
17:50:02 [timbl]: universal alternative to URIs, and will start using them in
17:50:04 [Ashok]: SW: Raman: could you support the msg except item 3
17:50:04 [timbl]: existing languages where URIs are expected, causing tools to break
17:50:06 [timbl]: and users to be frustrated.
17:50:08 [timbl]: ."
17:50:26 [Stuart]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2008Mar/0069
17:50:28 [timbl]: How about " acknowledge the possible negative consequences of success in going down this path, namely that ordinary users will not understand that the [-CURIE is not a universal alternative to URIs, and will start using them in existing languages where URIs are expected, causing tools to break and users to be frustrated."
17:50:30 [timbl]: q+
17:50:31 [Norm]: Say nothing?
17:51:25 [Norm]: q+ to say I think the TAG should make points 1, 2, and 4
17:51:55 [Ashok]: SW: The question is -- can we agree on the rest of the draft except item 3
17:53:32 [Ashok]: TVR: I wd object to item 1 because it seems to say we have not have a conversation with them
17:53:55 [Ashok]: TVR: I can live with item 1
17:54:38 [Ashok]: TVR: I can live with item 2
17:55:28 [ht]: q+ to propose a placeholder for 3 so we can send the rest of the input
17:56:03 [Ashok]: TVR: I think item 4 is a good thing to say
17:56:40 [Norm]: I'm sensitive to raman's comment on point 1, I'd be in favor of making it clear that we aren't asking for *our* clarification but for clarification *in the spec*
17:56:42 [Ashok]: HT: I beleive the remaining items are editorial
17:56:56 [timbl]: q+ to propose a replacement for 3 in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/curie.html
17:56:58 [Ashok]: HT: but I will check
17:57:40 [timbl]: q?
17:57:40 [Stuart]: q?
17:58:10 [Ashok]: HT: Proposes we send everything except 3 but with a placeholder for 3
17:58:29 [timbl]: ack tim
17:58:29 [Zakim]: timbl, you wanted to propose a replacement for 3 in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/curie.html
17:58:32 [jar]: +1 re placeholder for section 3, everything else can be sent
18:00:54 [Ashok]: Timd reads out above
18:01:02 [Ashok]: s/Timd/Tim/
18:01:02 [Zakim]: -Raman
18:01:09 [Stuart]: q?
18:01:43 [Norm]: ack norm
18:01:43 [Zakim]: Norm, you wanted to say I think the TAG should make points 1, 2, and 4
18:02:24 [Stuart]: q- ht
18:02:26 [Ashok]: SW: Any more discussion of Tim's revision?
18:02:29 [jar]: +1 re Tim's version
18:03:48 [Ashok]: SW: Proposes "TAG have reached consensus to adopt HT and JAR's original proposal with item 3 changed as per Tim's revison"
18:03:58 [Ashok]: No objection
18:04:31 [timbl]: s?Tim's revision?http://www.w3.org/2008/04/curie.html?
18:06:07 [Ashok]: ACTION: Stuart to send final text HTML WG
18:06:07 [trackbot-ng]: Created ACTION-128 - Send final text HTML WG [on Stuart Williams - due 2008-04-03].
18:06:43 [jar]: "safe curie"
18:08:17 [Ashok]: Topic: Item 4 Issue 35 RDFinXHTML
18:09:16 [Ashok]: Norm: I had some high-level questions and I wanted to ask if TAG wanted to discuss them
18:10:11 [timbl]: q+
18:10:48 [timbl]: I feel that there should be a policy of trying to guide the (x)HTML family of languages so that they can be managed as one in the future, with an adapter layter
18:10:49 [Stuart]: q?
18:10:50 [Ashok]: Norm: What will the world do if RDfa spec by XHTML3 does not beocome part of HTML5
18:11:16 [Stuart]: s/XHTML3/XHTML2/
18:11:30 [Ashok]: How do we feel abt refinition of attributes like rel and rev
18:11:34 [timbl]: rel= and rev=
18:12:01 [Ashok]: s/refinition/redefinition/
18:13:56 [Ashok]: Norm: Attributes declared to accept a URI or CURIE but we have discussed this so I'm happy to drop it
18:13:59 [Stuart]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2008Mar/0072
18:14:46 [Ashok]: SW: Is the comment to make is to ask the 2 HTML WGs to coordinate?
18:15:20 [Ashok]: SW: Norm, could you draft a partial commnt?
18:15:45 [Ashok]: ACTION: Norm to draft comment for feedback of RDFa review
18:15:45 [trackbot-ng]: Sorry, couldn't find user - Norm
18:17:00 [Ashok]: JAR: I sent my comments out personally ... I have nothing to add
18:17:03 [Zakim]: -Dave_Orchard
18:17:05 [Stuart]: q?
18:17:36 [Stuart]: ACTION: Norman to draft comment for feedback of RDFa review
18:17:36 [trackbot-ng]: Created ACTION-129 - Draft comment for feedback of RDFa review [on Norman Walsh - due 2008-04-03].
18:17:48 [Zakim]: +Dave_Orchard
18:18:36 [jar]: "virtual URI schemes" !?
18:18:49 [Ashok]: Tim: Shd we reinvestigate the idea that we shd not distinguisj between prefix's and schema names
18:19:16 [Ashok]: s/distinguisj/distinguish/
18:21:11 [Ashok]: TimBL: Move Qnames and URIs into same space with one fell swoop
18:22:52 [Stuart]: q+ to mention media type.
18:22:58 [Stuart]: ack timbl
18:23:30 [Ashok]: TimBL: Getting compatibility will take work ... you want it as an extension to URI spec ... don't want languages investing indepently
18:23:54 [Ashok]: s/investing/inventing/
18:24:21 [Ashok]: SW: Do we have all the comments we want to make on the RDFa call?
18:25:59 [Ashok]: SW: We shd review media-type, frag-id interaction wrt HTML and RDFa
18:26:23 [Ashok]: TimBL: Is there an ambiguity there?
18:26:50 [Ashok]: SW: I shd go look at this more closely
18:27:28 [timbl]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Mar/0297
18:28:12 [Ashok]: TOPIC: Bristol travel arrangements
18:28:32 [Ashok]: SW: I will put up a logistics page
18:29:20 [Ashok]: Noah: If you could just send mail with hotels
18:29:43 [timbl]: SW: HP labs is on teh N ege of Bristol, but you might not want to stay ther . downtown Briston is more interesting, especially for wlaks in the evening.
18:30:04 [timbl]: ... We would need a taxi to pick you up i the morning.
18:31:06 [timbl]: Bristol Interplanetary
18:31:54 [timbl]: 100 miles from LHR
18:32:00 [timbl]: 1.5-2hs drive
18:32:14 [noah]: Paddington?
18:32:23 [timbl]: Or train to Paddington (15mins every 15ins) then train to Bristol.
18:32:40 [timbl]: £140 for a pickup by car
18:33:36 [timbl]: "Rail air link is bus to reading then mainline to brisol parkwy/temple meads"
18:33:52 [timbl]: 1.5 hrs trin, every hour
18:34:30 [timbl]: Weekend: Could arrange canoeing on the wye on Sunday
18:35:54 [timbl]: The famous Tidal Bore
18:36:00 [Norm]: Y'all can swim, right?
18:36:14 [Norm]: Soitenly!
18:36:20 [timbl]: possibly
18:37:10 [dorchard]: I think I will attend and Sunday sounds great!
18:37:42 [Norm]: oh, ack!
18:37:50 [timbl]: Kernbridge
18:37:56 [Zakim]: -Norm
18:38:29 [timbl]: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Kerne+Bridge,+Ross-on-wye,+UK&sa=X&oi=map&ct=image
18:38:44 [jar]: sorry, gotta go now. see y'all later
18:38:48 [Zakim]: -Jonathan
18:39:03 [Zakim]: -Dave_Orchard
18:39:07 [Zakim]: -Noah_Mendelsohn
18:39:10 [Zakim]: -Ht
18:39:19 [Stuart]: rrsagent make logs public
18:39:27 [Stuart]: rrsagent, make logs public
18:40:37 [Stuart]: http://www.w3.org/2008/03/27-tagmem-irc.txt
18:42:04 [Zakim]: -TimBL
18:42:27 [Stuart]: http://dev.w3.org/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
18:44:03 [Stuart]: scribe.perl --minutes http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/03/27-minutes <27-tagmem-irc.txt | tidy >27-minutes.html
18:47:43 [Stuart]: http://jigedit.w3.org/swilliam/WWW/2001/tag/
18:50:05 [Stuart]: http://jigedit.w3.org/swilliam/WWW/
18:51:58 [Stuart]: http://jigedit.w3.org/swilliam/WWW/2001/tag/2008/03/27-minutes.html
18:58:38 [Stuart]: http://www.w3.org/2008/03/27-tagmem-minutes
19:01:41 [Zakim]: -Ashok_Malhotra
19:01:42 [Zakim]: -Stuart
19:01:43 [Zakim]: TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended
19:01:44 [Zakim]: Attendees were Stuart, +1.617.538.aaaa, TimBL, Ashok_Malhotra, Ht, Noah_Mendelsohn, Norm, Jonathan, Dave_Orchard, +1.617.253.aabb, Raman
19:20:07 [Stuart]: Stuart has joined #tagmem
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19:22:42 [jar]: jar has joined #tagmem
19:30:02 [Stuart]: Stuart has left #tagmem
20:34:03 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #tagmem