IRC log of eo on 2006-05-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:28:47 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/05/05-eo-irc
12:28:55 [Zakim]
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12:29:03 [justin]
zakim, this will be eowg
12:29:03 [Zakim]
ok, justin, I see WAI_EOWG()8:30AM already started
12:29:18 [Zakim]
+Jack
12:29:31 [justin]
Meeting: EOWG
12:30:20 [justin]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2006AprJun/0065.html
12:30:25 [shawn-brb]
zakim, who is here?
12:30:25 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Bingham, Doyle_Saylor, Jack
12:30:26 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, justin, shadi, Wayne, Andrew, shawn-brb
12:30:28 [judy]
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+Judy
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+Shadi
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+Shawn
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+Justin_Thorp
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zakim, please mute me
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12:33:05 [alan]
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+ +1.562.493.aaaa
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12:33:55 [justin]
zakim, aaaa is Wayne
12:33:55 [Zakim]
+Wayne; got it
12:34:07 [justin]
Chair: Shawn
12:34:14 [Zakim]
+??P6
12:34:44 [Zakim]
+Sylvie_Duchateau\Tanguy_Lohéac
12:34:49 [justin]
zakim, ??P6 is Alan
12:34:49 [Zakim]
+Alan; got it
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+ +61.3.981.3.aabb
12:35:00 [Andrew]
zakim aabb is Andrew
12:35:25 [justin]
zakim, aabb is Andrew
12:35:25 [Zakim]
+Andrew; got it
12:35:26 [Zakim]
+Helle_Bjarno
12:35:27 [shawn-brb]
zakim who is here?
12:35:30 [shawn-brb]
zakim, who is here?
12:35:30 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Bingham, Doyle_Saylor, Jack, Judy, Shadi, Shawn, Justin_Thorp (muted), Wayne, Alan, Sylvie_DuchateauTanguy_Lohéac (muted), Andrew, Helle_Bjarno
12:35:33 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Helle, alan, Harvey, judy, Zakim, RRSAgent, justin, shadi, Wayne, Andrew, shawn-brb
12:36:53 [justin]
zakim, please unmute me
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12:37:15 [justin]
zakim, please mute me
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Justin_Thorp should now be muted
12:40:11 [alan]
SH: Discuss "About Baselines" document content and distribution of material between it and Conformance document
12:40:41 [alan]
SH: Try not to get too distracted by questions about usefulness of baseline concept.
12:41:42 [alan]
WD: Group discussion on list was about fact that people don't understand the concept of baseline.
12:42:18 [Andrew]
scribe: Alan
12:42:51 [justin]
zakim, please unmute me
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12:43:04 [Andrew]
scribenick: alan
12:43:33 [justin]
zakim, please mute me
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12:43:42 [alan]
JT: What technology you need to access the content or that are used to create it.
12:44:11 [alan]
WD: Technologies that author has to use to meet a particular conformance level.
12:45:07 [alan]
HB: [technology] needed to access the information content. There is a tendency to design on the assumption that some user agents are available.
12:45:18 [alan]
HB: Acceptable requirements.
12:46:02 [alan]
SD: Set of technologies used to produce the website.
12:46:44 [shawn-brb]
Alan: assumed agreement between developer & user
12:46:45 [alan]
JW: Set of technologies assumed to exist.
12:47:07 [alan]
AC: A kind of agreement between the producer and the consumer.
12:47:26 [alan]
DS: About being able to "do it" or "only just able to do it"
12:47:54 [shawn-brb]
q+ to mention baseline before, versus after
12:48:39 [alan]
JW: Set of technologies used to make a site, and expected to be available. And the levels available.
12:49:38 [alan]
AA: Basic set of technologies assumed by the developers to allow access regardless of disability.
12:50:24 [alan]
JB: The author's assumptions about the installed base...
12:51:25 [alan]
SAZ: Set of technologies under which web content is available at the target conformance level.
12:52:06 [shawn]
ack shawn
12:52:06 [Zakim]
shawn-brb, you wanted to mention baseline before, versus after
12:54:28 [alan]
JW: Wide range of opinions. Could be problematic.
12:55:01 [alan]
WD: The concept of a contract needs to be discussed somewhere.
12:55:19 [alan]
SH: Or agreement.
12:56:14 [alan]
WD: The user isn't included very clearly.
12:58:03 [justin]
zakim, please unmute me
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Justin_Thorp should no longer be muted
12:58:48 [justin]
zakim, please mute me
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13:00:06 [justin]
zakim, please unmute me
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13:00:10 [alan]
SH: What would be a good short introduction?
13:00:30 [alan]
JT: Get a clear idea looking at an example.
13:00:46 [justin]
zakim, please mute me
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Justin_Thorp should now be muted
13:00:53 [alan]
WD: Section about "How can we be sure a site is accessible?"
13:02:19 [justin]
for me it was an example of a conformance claim not the example of a baseline section
13:02:47 [alan]
AA: Teh bullet points about what they are not (not user agents..)
13:03:54 [Andrew]
AA: leave out 'why wasn't UAAG used'
13:06:59 [alan]
WD: Section made the document difficult to read.
13:07:53 [Andrew]
AA: was surprised to find the Conformance stuff at the end of the 'about baselines' document - maybe it should be in a separate document?
13:08:03 [alan]
SH: Baseline document v. Conformance
13:09:09 [alan]
JB: Wanted to ask for opinions about a short intro section
13:11:21 [alan]
Conformance document is REcommendation, can't easily be changed. Baselines and "Understanding" documents are Notes, so can be changed later.
13:12:51 [alan]
SH: So what type of information should be included in each one?
13:16:34 [alan]
JB: Needs to be shorter, to encourage people to use it.
13:16:55 [alan]
JB: baseline material should be in the "Using" document.
13:19:54 [alan]
AA: People find the Using document too long, say they'll have to rewrite it to use it.
13:20:25 [alan]
AA: Reducing the Baslines material and putting it in Understanding is a good idea.
13:20:44 [alan]
JB: Understanding is already too long.
13:21:00 [alan]
SH: Need a short version.
13:21:26 [shawn]
Alan: Examples taken out of conformance. Useful but not in normative.
13:21:36 [justin]
zakim, please unmute me
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13:23:08 [shawn]
Alan: could be shortened. About starts out with [ ] before you get to it
13:23:56 [alan]
HB: Introduction of the About document is too long.
13:26:44 [justin]
zakim, please mute me
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13:27:21 [alan]
WD: The part about what is abaseline is lost in the middle of the document.
13:28:26 [judy]
q+
13:28:39 [shawn]
ack judy
13:28:40 [Andrew]
AA: maybe move to an 'endnote' on historical context
13:29:03 [shawn]
question: what to do with justification & background on how the working gropu got there
13:29:11 [shawn]
(also why not UAAG)
13:29:48 [justin]
yep
13:29:49 [shawn]
scribe: justin
13:30:54 [Zakim]
-Alan
13:31:09 [justin]
zakim, please unmute me
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13:31:25 [justin]
zakim, please mute me
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13:31:57 [justin]
Shawn: What else might be put as more background?
13:32:13 [Zakim]
-Wayne
13:32:25 [judy]
jb proposed wording of comment 1: 1. Rename "background" section of "About baselines" to "Why baseline"; shorten it by 2/3; and change the perspective of "this is what the WG did" to "this is why baseline is needed."
13:33:08 [justin]
Shawn: How about this is what baseline gets you
13:33:18 [justin]
Shawn: That gets along with what wayne was saying
13:33:28 [justin]
Harvey: Benefits of baseline
13:33:48 [justin]
Shawn: Not benefits as a selling point...but this is why its needed and what it gets you
13:34:10 [justin]
Shawn: this is what is good for accessibility and its useful for you
13:34:43 [shawn]
q+ what baseline is first
13:34:53 [justin]
Andrew: Before we go why baselines...we need a quick intro with what a baseline is
13:35:34 [judy]
[jb gives updated wording in progress] Rename "background" section of "About baselines" to "Why baseline is needed"; shorten it by 2/3; and change the perspective of "this is what the WG did" to "this is why baseline is needed, and what it gets you."
13:35:44 [justin]
jack: why a base line doesn't help me understand what a baseline is or what I should do about it
13:36:32 [justin]
Shawn: rename it to something like...why baseline is needed
13:36:46 [judy]
Rename "background" section of "About baselines" to "Why baseline is needed"; shorten it by 2/3; and change the perspective of "this is what the WG did" to "this is why baseline is needed, and what it gets you."
13:36:54 [judy]
oops, same
13:37:22 [Harvey]
HB (not HBJ) Need to integrate with W3C WD Conformance section that describes the "baseline"
13:37:41 [judy]
fyi this is what we ended up w/:
13:37:42 [judy]
1. Rename "background" section of "About baselines" to something like "Why baseline is needed" or "Why baseline is useful"; shorten it by 2/3; and change the perspective of "this is what the WG did" to "this is why baseline is needed, and what it gets you."
13:38:02 [justin]
Shawn: what is the first thing you get?
13:38:16 [justin]
Shawn: Why you need it or a brief short what it is
13:39:13 [justin]
Andrew: i vote for a what it is first....you have to go through a lot to find out what it is. There was quite a bit of difference between what people thought. It would be nice to lay it out before people go farther into the document.
13:40:29 [justin]
Shawn: a short brief description of baseline...do we move the what is a baseline up
13:40:47 [Jack]
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13:40:52 [justin]
Andrew: If we move it up...move examples back
13:41:10 [justin]
Shawn: what about those first three paragraphs
13:42:59 [justin]
Andrew: 1 and a bit of 3
13:43:04 [justin]
Judy: 1 and 2
13:43:16 [justin]
Harvey: Last half of 2 is a major message
13:43:21 [justin]
zakim, please unmute me
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Justin_Thorp should no longer be muted
13:43:37 [justin]
zakim, please mute me
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Justin_Thorp should now be muted
13:44:03 [justin]
Justin: rewrite the 3 paragraphs into one paragraph
13:45:06 [justin]
Shawn; Take the main points of the first three paragraphs of what is a baseline and is move it to the beginning
13:45:23 [justin]
Judy: What is baseline goes to three and a half pages
13:45:51 [justin]
Shawn: Put the idea of what is a baseline at the very beginning
13:46:35 [judy]
proposed wording for comment #2. Take the concepts from the first three paragraphs from the "What is a baseline" section, simplify them (try rewriting them into one short, simple paragraph), and put them at the very beginning of the "About Baseline" document.
13:47:18 [judy]
s/one/one or two
13:47:33 [justin]
Shawn: I would think like 2 paragraphs
13:47:47 [justin]
Shawn: First paragraph should be the pitch...second is anything else
13:48:22 [justin]
Shawn: What information is more what we have here? and what is more how we got here?
13:48:23 [Harvey]
Should include a link to the normative Conformance section.
13:48:46 [justin]
Shawn: Why wasn't UAAG used
13:49:01 [justin]
Andrew: Obviously its important otherwise they wouldn't have put it in here
13:50:12 [justin]
Judy: We could have a core section...that goes into a more question and answer format
13:50:24 [justin]
Judy: The H2s are more setup as questions
13:50:36 [justin]
Judy: Its not set up as q&a document
13:51:20 [justin]
Shawn: We need to distinguish between key information versus side info
13:51:50 [justin]
Shawn: First section is the basics of what you need to know...separate section is why UAAG wasn't used
13:53:05 [justin]
Harvey: The conformance section has a section about technology and the baselines
13:54:10 [justin]
Judy: Let me read proposed changes #3
13:55:34 [justin]
Shawn: The background and UAAG stuff needs to be very clear as side information
13:57:02 [justin]
Shawn: What i heard andrew and wayne say and I agree with is that you have main information, what it is, the examples...then you have the end note
13:57:45 [shawn]
short intro - explanation stuff incuding examples - appendix/endnote on background
13:58:27 [justin]
Shawn: What do we do with the conformance information?
13:59:27 [justin]
Shawn: Is there anything else that we would stick in the last section
13:59:35 [justin]
Shawn: stuff that most people wouldn't need to know
14:00:06 [judy]
draft wording for comment #3. Re-structure the document so that there is a short first section which gives you the basics of what baseline is, without any background or examples; then an explanation of essential things needed to apply baseline, including examples; and finally a Q/A section that includes less essential things that people may be wondering about, such as why UAAG wasn't used as the baseline.
14:02:01 [justin]
Andrew: What about the background section? Where does that go? I would think the background goes into the q&a
14:02:06 [judy]
s/baseline./baseline, and other info from the background.
14:02:56 [justin]
Judy: I think we have to think of the total length of the impact of the support documents. Many people would be very selective about what they process. Whatever they put in this they would be very selective
14:03:08 [shawn]
last part: "; and finally an ending section (more like appendix) (that might be in Q/A format) that includes background and less essential things that people may be wondering about, such as why UAAG wasn't used as the baseline.
14:03:51 [judy]
s/and other info from/and selected other info from
14:03:52 [justin]
Judy: Maybe the be concise and what needs to be said is another comment
14:05:10 [justin]
Shawn: we need to say something like the ending section where additional important points...
14:06:14 [judy]
draft wording for comment #3. Re-structure the document so that there is a short first section which gives you the basics of what baseline is, without any background or examples; then an explanation of essential things needed to apply baseline, including examples; and finally an ending section such as an appendix, that might be set up like a Q/A section, and includes other things that people may be wondering about, such as why UAAG wasn't used as the baseline and se
14:07:30 [justin]
Shawn: Lets follow up with the length & the writing
14:10:56 [shawn]
q+ to add some of the things that go in the beginning bit: Baselines are not audience abilities (& onesentence) & Baselines are not browser or AT specifications
14:12:06 [justin]
Judy: Less discussing and more practical
14:13:17 [justin]
Judy: people read with very straightforward non-academic
14:13:38 [justin]
Shawn: less history discussion and more instruction
14:13:48 [Harvey]
Be terse!
14:14:12 [justin]
Judy: Now we need to turn this into more instructive material
14:15:17 [justin]
Sylvie: I agree with less discussion and more instruction
14:15:50 [justin]
Sylvie: I like the word practical.
14:15:51 [Andrew]
Sylvie: ... and more practical
14:16:51 [justin]
Judy: I think we might be able to send this right over to the WCAG WG...we may park it on the list
14:17:42 [shawn]
ACK SHAWN
14:17:42 [Zakim]
shawn, you wanted to add some of the things that go in the beginning bit: Baselines are not audience abilities (& onesentence) & Baselines are not browser or AT specifications
14:18:25 [justin]
Shawn: Andrew said early on in the baselines are not audiences or browser specifications
14:19:01 [shawn]
in COMMENT about what goes at beginning, we add a sentence or so on "Baselines are not browser or AT specifications" and "Baselines are not audience abilities"
14:19:48 [justin]
Judy: I am not comfortable with putting things in the intro about what baselines aren't
14:20:48 [justin]
Judy: should stick with things about what they are. giving people what they aren't before presenting a clear picture is big
14:21:06 [justin]
Shawn: I'd vote for including them something about them not being browser specifications
14:21:15 [shawn]
in COMMENT about what goes at beginning, we add a sentence or so on "Baselines are not browser (or AT) specifications"
14:21:30 [shadi]
q+
14:21:40 [justin]
Judy: Expand what we are saying in comment #2
14:22:46 [shadi]
ack me
14:22:54 [justin]
Shadi: I am not sure if I agree...i agree that users will make the browser confusions...if we say what it isn't won't they say what is it
14:23:16 [justin]
Judy: Include a few bullet points about what it is and then add one about what it isn't
14:24:49 [justin]
Shadi: It is not about AT/users agents...it leaves a mystery about what it is...i like the suggestion if we give some hints about what it is..even if it is a pointer
14:25:06 [judy]
2. Take the concepts from the first three paragraphs from the "What is a baseline" section, simplify them (try rewriting them into one or two short, simple paragraph), and put them at the very beginning of the "About Baseline" document. [proppsed addition: If this can be done in a way that includes simple statements about baseline *is,* then add a brief statement that baseline is *not* browser or AT specifications]
14:26:38 [justin]
Shawn: We need to get to how in this document there is info on conformance.
14:26:57 [justin]
Shawn: I think most of it is right out of WCAG 2.0
14:27:02 [justin]
Shawn: there is no pointer
14:27:55 [justin]
Shawn: my proposal is that very near the beginning of the document that it points to the conformance section for more information. It takes out the any information here that is just a duplicate of what focuses on conformance in the conformance section
14:29:20 [justin]
zakim, please unmute me
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Justin_Thorp should no longer be muted
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zakim, please mute me
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Justin_Thorp should now be muted
14:30:27 [Zakim]
-Helle_Bjarno
14:32:31 [judy]
draft comment: 5. Add a clear link to the conformance section from the intro to the baseline section, and remove redundant info about conformance from the baseline document. Note that, for now, we are not suggesting removing the baseline info from the conformance section.
14:33:48 [justin]
Andrew: it captures the idea
14:34:25 [justin]
Shawn: Will send to EO...if there is no comments...will send to Baseline editors
14:35:07 [justin]
Judy: Was trying to turn it around with minimal editing
14:35:22 [justin]
Judy: 2 business days
14:35:48 [justin]
Shawn: Do we want to point to sylvie's specific comments
14:36:45 [justin]
Shawn: Next week we are doing what suggest for the future and how information is handled between the different documents
14:36:53 [justin]
Shawn: WCAG 2.0 is a w3c recommendation
14:37:13 [Zakim]
-Doyle_Saylor
14:37:15 [Zakim]
-Bingham
14:37:17 [Zakim]
-Sylvie_DuchateauTanguy_Lohéac
14:37:18 [Zakim]
-Jack
14:37:21 [Zakim]
-Justin_Thorp
14:37:22 [Zakim]
-Andrew
14:37:25 [Harvey]
Harvey has left #eo
14:37:37 [judy]
zakim, who's here?
14:37:37 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Judy, Shadi, Shawn
14:37:38 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Jack, alan, judy, Zakim, RRSAgent, justin, shadi, Andrew, shawn
14:37:46 [Zakim]
-Shadi
14:41:05 [Zakim]
-Shawn
14:41:07 [Zakim]
-Judy
14:41:09 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has ended
14:41:10 [Zakim]
Attendees were Bingham, Doyle_Saylor, Jack, Judy, Shadi, Shawn, Justin_Thorp, +1.562.493.aaaa, Wayne, Sylvie_Duchateau\Tanguy_Lohéac, Alan, +61.3.981.3.aabb, Andrew, Helle_Bjarno
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