IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-09-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:57:26 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
13:57:32 [Michael]: rrsagent, make log world
13:58:17 [Zakim]: WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has now started
13:58:24 [Zakim]: +??P1
13:59:09 [Zakim]: +Michael_Cooper
13:59:18 [Michael]: zakim, ??P1 is Chris_Ridpath
13:59:18 [Zakim]: +Chris_Ridpath; got it
13:59:29 [ChrisR]: ChrisR has joined #wai-wcag
13:59:33 [Zakim]: +??P3
13:59:49 [Michael]: zakim, ??P3 is Ken_Kipness
13:59:49 [Zakim]: +Ken_Kipness; got it
14:01:25 [Zakim]: + +44.151.287.aaaa
14:01:34 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
14:01:44 [Zakim]: +Alex_Li
14:01:45 [Michael]: zakim, +44 is Gez_Lemon
14:01:45 [Zakim]: +Gez_Lemon; got it
14:01:47 [Becky]: Becky has joined #wai-wcag
14:02:06 [Michael]: zakim, [Microsoft] is temporarily Jenae_Andershonis
14:02:06 [Zakim]: +Jenae_Andershonis; got it
14:02:12 [Becky]: will call in shortly - on the phone with my parents
14:02:35 [wendy]: wendy has joined #wai-wcag
14:03:21 [Zakim]: +Don_Evans
14:03:31 [Zakim]: +??P11
14:03:35 [Zakim]: +Wendy
14:03:48 [Michael]: zakim, ??P11 is Lisa_Seeman
14:03:48 [Zakim]: +Lisa_Seeman; got it
14:05:40 [Zakim]: +Becky_Gibson
14:05:57 [wendy]: Topic: Blink
14:06:32 [wendy]: bg believe there are legitimate uses for blink. concern is that css blink is not well supported and could not find a consistent way to stop it.
14:06:51 [wendy]: bg avoid css-blink for now and use javascript instead.
14:07:02 [wendy]: ls provide an option to turn it off?
14:07:14 [Zakim]: +??P14
14:07:24 [DonaldFEvans]: DonaldFEvans has joined #wai-wcag
14:07:33 [wendy]: bg other than turning css off, couldn't find a way to turn off css blink using javascript (couldn't change text decoration)
14:08:40 [DonaldFEvans]: DonaldFEvans has joined #wai-wcag
14:08:48 [Michael]: zakim, drop ??P14
14:08:49 [Zakim]: ??P14 is being disconnected
14:08:50 [Zakim]: -??P14
14:12:47 [wendy]: ls once the user has to turn off the blink rate, it is too late (for the person with PSE).
14:13:02 [wendy]: ls this should be a user agent issue.
14:13:34 [wendy]: bg there isn't a way to do that today.
14:13:43 [wendy]: bg people can implement blink using javascript.
14:14:33 [wendy]: q+ to ask, "how common is it to create blink via javascript? applet? flash? perhaps don't need a technical solution today, but that similar to content that opens in new windows, if you follow the link it will blink"
14:15:05 [wendy]: gl user style sheets that can override blink?
14:15:35 [wendy]: ack wendy
14:15:35 [Zakim]: wendy, you wanted to ask, "how common is it to create blink via javascript? applet? flash? perhaps don't need a technical solution today, but that similar to content that opens in
14:15:38 [Zakim]: ... new windows, if you follow the link it will blink"
14:17:11 [wendy]: ls some responsibility about the content you are linking to.
14:18:17 [Zakim]: -Wendy
14:18:36 [Zakim]: +Wendy
14:19:24 [wendy]: wac wcag 1.0 was too restrictive wrt blink, didn't include patterns.
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14:21:16 [wendy]: wac and didn't talk about percentage of field of vision that the offending content needs to take up before it will be a problem.
14:21:48 [wendy]: wac there has only been one (if that?) case reported of web content causing a seizure, we ought to be careful about being too restrictive.
14:22:02 [DonaldFEvans]: DonaldFEvans has joined #wai-wcag
14:22:07 [wendy]: wac however, there is the issue for people who have difficulty with attention.
14:22:31 [wendy]: ls question is, "who are we doing it for?"
14:23:03 [wendy]: bg how many advertisements blink? most of those are images.
14:23:10 [DonaldFEvans]: DonaldFEvans has joined #wai-wcag
14:23:12 [wendy]: al what is a substitute for getting attention?
14:23:47 [wendy]: bg if you use color, you'll miss a segment of the audience (colorblind, people using screen readers)
14:23:50 [DonaldFEvans]: DonaldFEvans has joined #wai-wcag
14:23:52 [wendy]: bg there is not one method that will work.
14:24:16 [wendy]: bg i'm not an advocate of blink, but there are people who want to use it and we should tell them how to use it [accessibly].
14:24:44 [DonaldFEvans]: DonaldFEvans has joined #wai-wcag
14:26:02 [wendy]: UAAG test: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/TS/html401/cp0303/0303-CSS-BLINK.html
14:27:33 [DonaldFEvans]: DonaldFEvans has joined #wai-wcag
14:28:14 [DonaldFEvans]: DonaldFEvans has joined #wai-wcag
14:28:15 [wendy]: current WCAG 2.0 draft: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#flicker
14:29:53 [DonaldFEvans]: DonaldFEvans has joined #wai-wcag
14:31:41 [DonaldFEvans]: DonaldFEvans has joined #wai-wcag
14:32:32 [wendy]: ls flashing text be hard to read for someone who is dyslexic
14:34:13 [wendy]: mc perhaps need gateway technique to describe problems with motion, then css techniques and javascript techniques could point to this.
14:34:15 [DonaldFEvans]: DonaldFEvans has joined #wai-wcag
14:34:54 [wendy]: mc in html techniques, continue to forbid, because it is not a standard element (not related to blinking problem).
14:35:02 [wendy]: bg not accessibility, it falls under "use spec"
14:37:32 [DonaldFEvans]: DonaldFEvans has joined #wai-wcag
14:38:20 [wendy]: proposal: gateway explain issues with blinking text, etc., in css describe issues with css-blink (lack of support) and link back to issues in gateway, in html: link to issues in gateway, say don't use blink since non-standard, and describe linking to content that blinks, in scripting: link to gateway, describe how to turn off blinking/flashing (if possible).
14:39:17 [Zakim]: -Wendy
14:39:52 [Michael]: action: becky submit Javascript blink technique
14:39:52 [Zakim]: +Wendy
14:40:00 [DonaldFEvans]: DonaldFEvans has joined #wai-wcag
14:40:16 [Michael]: action: Michael add info to HTML BLINK from this discussion
14:40:24 [Michael]: action: Wendy edit CSS blink
14:41:41 [Michael]: action: Lisa, Becky create proposal for use of blink for Gateway, work with John
14:42:48 [wendy]: Topic: null summary for table
14:43:20 [wendy]: mc discussion on IG list, started by proposal from Phill Jenkins to use summary on table to indicate that a table is a layout table
14:44:08 [wendy]: mc many people favored it.
14:44:23 [wendy]: mc in our own discussions, we did not require it, but say if you do use it, make it null.
14:44:47 [wendy]: mc in the IG discussions, folks said that jaws handles a table with null summary differently than one that doesn't have null summary.
14:45:15 [wendy]: ls would vote against requiring a null summary
14:50:27 [DonaldFEvans]: DonaldFEvans has joined #wai-wcag
14:53:00 [wendy]: mc require th and permit null summary?
14:53:16 [wendy]: mc that's our existing philosophy
14:55:04 [wendy]: action: chris write up current philosophy (re: th on data tables and null summary on layout tables) and respond on the IG list
14:55:11 [wendy]: Topic: test suites
14:57:17 [wendy]: http://tile-cridpath.atrc.utoronto.ca/acheck/servlet/ShowGuide?name=wcag-2-0-aaa.xml&lang=eng&wcag=true
14:58:27 [wendy]: http://tile-cridpath.atrc.utoronto.ca/acheck/servlet/ShowCheck?check=1&lang=eng&wcag=true
14:58:41 [wendy]: ls if you have an image in a link and image is redundant with link text, don't need alt?
14:58:58 [wendy]: mc we require null alt in that situation
15:00:24 [Zakim]: -Alex_Li
15:00:45 [wendy]: http://tile-cridpath.atrc.utoronto.ca/acheck/servlet/ShowCheck?check=3&lang=eng&wcag=true
15:01:06 [wendy]: alt-text should be short. but need to raise this as a warning not an error.
15:01:43 [wendy]: if greater than 100 charactrs then have to look at the image and context and alt-text and state this is the shortest alt-text and that it is ok.
15:02:36 [wendy]: ls would tweak the wording. e.g., the coo's speech in image with alt="coo's speech" and transcript of speech in longdesc.
15:03:06 [DonFEvans]: DonFEvans has joined #wai-wcag
15:04:41 [wendy]: cr misuse of alt
15:04:57 [wendy]: bg what does spec say?
15:11:43 [ben]: ben has joined #wai-wcag
15:11:55 [Zakim]: +??P22
15:12:03 [ben]: zakim, ??P22 is Ben
15:12:03 [Zakim]: +Ben; got it
15:15:58 [wendy]: cr chose 100 because original number was 150 others have said 60, went in between.
15:16:05 [wendy]: cr until someone does some research.
15:17:22 [wendy]: mc by having this test, we're picking a reasonable number that says "the alt-text might not be short enough"
15:17:58 [wendy]: cr good in techniques
15:18:11 [wendy]: ls perhaps also in test suite. a type of test?
15:18:41 [wendy]: mc in this test, the text is long by including nonsense. we can point to it and say "this is gratuitously long" but if the test file loaded an actual image of lots of text.
15:18:56 [wendy]: mc the alt-text would represent the image, we would show that it is not gratuitous.
15:19:15 [wendy]: ls is the general feeling that a whole paragraph should not be in alt-text?
15:19:21 [wendy]: ls that a sentence or two is ok?
15:19:33 [wendy]: bg talking about image of text?
15:19:40 [wendy]: bg question why doing it as an image.
15:21:38 [wendy]: mc what if tech that says, "alt for image w/text in them should fully represent the text." the test file could be long alt-text. the one against long alt-text would not be required for the new technique.
15:21:53 [wendy]: cr ok to have long alt-text, but you are required to look at the alt and the image to make a decision.
15:22:09 [wendy]: mc should wcag define that or not?
15:22:19 [wendy]: ls you should always look at the alt-text and make that decision.
15:24:07 [wendy]: bg we will never find a number that works for everyone.
15:24:19 [wendy]: bg you have to put a stake in the ground somewhere.
15:25:24 [wendy]: wac what about number of sentences, to make it applicable to more languages?
15:27:30 [wendy]: ls even if 100, that could be too long. for example, if it is a bullet.
15:28:13 [wendy]: cr look at the alt-text and the image for every one and determine if appropriate length based on some criteria.
15:33:22 [ChrisR]: http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-qa-handbook-20040830/#Acquire
15:35:36 [Zakim]: -Don_Evans
15:35:37 [Zakim]: -Becky_Gibson
15:35:38 [Zakim]: -Michael_Cooper
15:35:38 [Zakim]: -Lisa_Seeman
15:35:39 [Zakim]: -Gez_Lemon
15:35:40 [Zakim]: -Chris_Ridpath
15:35:41 [Zakim]: -Jenae_Andershonis
15:35:42 [Zakim]: -Ben
15:35:43 [Zakim]: -Wendy
15:35:50 [Zakim]: -Ken_Kipness
15:35:51 [Zakim]: WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended
15:35:52 [Zakim]: Attendees were Michael_Cooper, Chris_Ridpath, Ken_Kipness, +44.151.287.aaaa, Alex_Li, Gez_Lemon, Jenae_Andershonis, Don_Evans, Wendy, Lisa_Seeman, Becky_Gibson, Ben
15:36:32 [wendy]: RRSAgent, make log world
15:36:37 [wendy]: zakim, bye
15:36:37 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #wai-wcag
15:36:41 [wendy]: RRSAgent, bye
15:36:41 [RRSAgent]: I see 5 open action items:
15:36:41 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: becky submit Javascript blink technique [1]
15:36:41 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/08-wai-wcag-irc#T14-39-52
15:36:41 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Michael add info to HTML BLINK from this discussion [2]
15:36:41 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/08-wai-wcag-irc#T14-40-16
15:36:41 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Wendy edit CSS blink [3]
15:36:41 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/08-wai-wcag-irc#T14-40-24
15:36:41 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Lisa, Becky create proposal for use of blink for Gateway, work with John [4]
15:36:41 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/08-wai-wcag-irc#T14-41-41
15:36:41 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: chris write up current philosophy (re: th on data tables and null summary on layout tables) and respond on the IG list [5]
15:36:41 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/08-wai-wcag-irc#T14-55-04