IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-08-05
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 19:52:51 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
- 19:54:01 [wendy]
- Meeting: WCAG WG
- 19:54:27 [wendy]
- Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0318.html
- 19:54:38 [wendy]
- Chair: Gregg Vanderheiden
- 19:56:40 [sh1mmer]
- Zakim, who is on the phone?
- 19:56:40 [Zakim]
- sorry, sh1mmer, I don't know what conference this is
- 19:56:41 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see RRSAgent, bengt, Zakim, Al, james, wendy, sh1mmer
- 19:57:08 [bengt]
- zakim, this will be wai-wcag
- 19:57:08 [Zakim]
- I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled near this time, bengt
- 19:57:27 [bengt]
- zakim, what conferences ?
- 19:57:27 [Zakim]
- I see no active conferences
- 19:57:28 [Zakim]
- scheduled at this time are WAI_UAWG()2:00PM, WAI_WCAG()4:00PM
- 19:57:35 [bengt]
- zakim, this will be wai_wcag
- 19:57:35 [Zakim]
- ok, bengt; I see WAI_WCAG()4:00PM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
- 19:57:36 [Zakim]
- WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has now started
- 19:57:42 [Zakim]
- +James_Craig
- 19:57:59 [james]
- Zakim, I am James_Craig
- 19:57:59 [Zakim]
- ok, james, I now associate you with James_Craig
- 19:59:29 [Becky]
- Becky has joined #wai-wcag
- 19:59:46 [Zakim]
- +[Microsoft]
- 19:59:52 [Zakim]
- +AlGilman
- 19:59:55 [MattSEA]
- MattSEA has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:00:13 [Zakim]
- +??P2
- 20:00:27 [Zakim]
- +Wendy
- 20:00:36 [Zakim]
- +Becky_Gibson
- 20:00:49 [Zakim]
- +??P5
- 20:00:50 [Zakim]
- +John_Slatin
- 20:00:59 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P2 is Tom_Croucher
- 20:00:59 [Zakim]
- +Tom_Croucher; got it
- 20:01:08 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P5 is Kerstin_Goldsmith
- 20:01:08 [Zakim]
- +Kerstin_Goldsmith; got it
- 20:01:12 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 20:01:12 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see James_Craig, [Microsoft], AlGilman, Tom_Croucher, Wendy, Becky_Gibson, John_Slatin, Kerstin_Goldsmith
- 20:01:21 [wendy]
- zakim, [Microsoft] in Mike_Barta
- 20:01:21 [Zakim]
- I don't understand '[Microsoft] in Mike_Barta', wendy
- 20:01:21 [bcaldwell]
- bcaldwell has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:01:23 [Zakim]
- +Matt
- 20:01:29 [Zakim]
- +??P7
- 20:01:31 [Zakim]
- +??P6
- 20:01:54 [sh1mmer]
- Zakim, I am Tom
- 20:01:54 [Zakim]
- ok, sh1mmer, I now associate you with Tom_Croucher
- 20:01:56 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P6 is Ben_Caldwell
- 20:01:56 [Zakim]
- +Ben_Caldwell; got it
- 20:02:01 [bengt]
- mute code
- 20:02:05 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 20:02:06 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see James_Craig, [Microsoft], AlGilman, Tom_Croucher (muted), Wendy, Becky_Gibson, John_Slatin, Kerstin_Goldsmith, Matt, Ben_Caldwell, ??P7
- 20:02:16 [Zakim]
- +[ATTcaller]
- 20:02:18 [wendy]
- zakim, [Microsoft] is Mike_Barta
- 20:02:18 [Zakim]
- +Mike_Barta; got it
- 20:02:21 [bcaldwell]
- zakim, Ben_Caldwell is Ben_and_Gregg
- 20:02:21 [Zakim]
- +Ben_and_Gregg; got it
- 20:02:45 [wendy]
- zakim, who's making nosie?
- 20:02:45 [Zakim]
- I don't understand your question, wendy.
- 20:02:48 [wendy]
- zakim, who's making noise?
- 20:02:49 [bengt]
- bengt did :)
- 20:02:52 [Zakim]
- +Sailesh_Panchang
- 20:02:59 [Zakim]
- wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Becky_Gibson (22%), Ben_and_Gregg (44%), ??P7 (8%)
- 20:03:09 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P7 is Ben_and_Gregg
- 20:03:09 [Zakim]
- +Ben_and_Gregg; got it
- 20:03:13 [Becky]
- I just muted
- 20:03:19 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 20:03:19 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see James_Craig, Mike_Barta, AlGilman, Tom_Croucher (muted), Wendy, Becky_Gibson, John_Slatin, Kerstin_Goldsmith, Matt, Ben_and_Gregg, Ben_and_Gregg.a, [ATTcaller],
- 20:03:22 [Zakim]
- ... Sailesh_Panchang
- 20:03:23 [Zakim]
- +[IBM]
- 20:03:29 [wendy]
- zakim, mute Ben_and_Gregg
- 20:03:29 [Zakim]
- Ben_and_Gregg should now be muted
- 20:03:29 [bengt]
- zakim, who
- 20:03:30 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'who', bengt
- 20:03:39 [wendy]
- zakim, Ben_and_Gregg is Bengt
- 20:03:39 [Zakim]
- +Bengt; got it
- 20:03:47 [wendy]
- zakim, [IBM] is Andi
- 20:03:47 [Zakim]
- +Andi; got it
- 20:03:50 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 20:03:50 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see James_Craig, Mike_Barta, AlGilman, Tom_Croucher (muted), Wendy, Becky_Gibson, John_Slatin, Kerstin_Goldsmith, Matt, Bengt (muted), Ben_and_Gregg.a, [ATTcaller],
- 20:03:52 [RichS_]
- RichS_ has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:03:53 [Zakim]
- ... Sailesh_Panchang, Andi
- 20:04:19 [bengt]
- I installed a firewall yesterday and my dialpad is behaving spooky
- 20:04:28 [gregg]
- gregg has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:04:34 [wendy]
- zakim, Andi is Rich
- 20:04:34 [Zakim]
- +Rich; got it
- 20:04:41 [wendy]
- zakim, [ATTcaller] is Doyle
- 20:04:41 [Zakim]
- +Doyle; got it
- 20:04:45 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 20:04:45 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see James_Craig, Mike_Barta, AlGilman, Tom_Croucher (muted), Wendy, Becky_Gibson, John_Slatin, Kerstin_Goldsmith, Matt, Bengt (muted), Ben_and_Gregg.a, Doyle,
- 20:04:48 [Zakim]
- ... Sailesh_Panchang, Rich
- 20:05:18 [Zakim]
- +??P11
- 20:05:20 [DoyleB]
- DoyleB has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:05:27 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P11 is Andi
- 20:05:27 [Zakim]
- +Andi; got it
- 20:05:52 [Andi]
- Andi has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:06:02 [wendy]
- Scribe: wendy
- 20:06:21 [Zakim]
- +Loretta_Guarino_Reid
- 20:06:38 [wendy]
- Topic: access key
- 20:06:43 [wendy]
- becky's message: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0324.html
- 20:07:22 [wendy]
- al provides update on pf discussions: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0328.html
- 20:07:31 [wendy]
- welcome to al and rich who are joining from pfwg
- 20:07:36 [wendy]
- (matt is also here from pfwg)
- 20:08:12 [wendy]
- bg difficult to find a keystroke that works on all browsers (since UAs have own set of keys and AT also uses keystrokes)
- 20:08:28 [wendy]
- bg proposal to have a standard set of keys (e.g., go to main content)
- 20:08:40 [wendy]
- bg user agents give access to those keys. might be diff keys for diff browsers.
- 20:08:54 [wendy]
- RRSAgent, make log world
- 20:09:11 [wendy]
- bg other issues with dynamic web content, e.g., javascript, asst. techs don't know how to respond to it.
- 20:09:31 [wendy]
- bg e.g., a div that is a menu.
- 20:09:56 [wendy]
- bg a set of roles are also being discussed.
- 20:10:06 [wendy]
- bg there is overlap between accesskeys and some of these roles, e.g., "main content"
- 20:10:20 [wendy]
- bg role may be main content and may also want to associate an accesskey to jump to main content.
- 20:10:34 [sh1mmer]
- q+
- 20:10:36 [wendy]
- bg what does WCAG see as the accesskey? is it a worthwhile proposal? what is needed?
- 20:11:08 [wendy]
- bg proposed roles: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/att-0325/roletables.html
- 20:11:15 [wendy]
- rs each platform has a set of defined roles.
- 20:11:48 [wendy]
- rs define a standard set of roles that allow author to map to a class on the platform.
- 20:12:01 [wendy]
- rs accesskey is not device independent.
- 20:12:05 [wendy]
- rs burden on the autho
- 20:12:09 [wendy]
- rs want metadta for accesskeys
- 20:12:51 [wendy]
- rs do we also need to add binding, we don't just use accesskey to give focus but to activate objects
- 20:13:04 [wendy]
- rs what should the standard set of these keys should be?
- 20:13:10 [wendy]
- rs how should they be separate from role?
- 20:13:25 [wendy]
- rs UA will want control over, depending on user's needs
- 20:13:40 [Al]
- q+
- 20:14:11 [sh1mmer]
- q- Ben_and_gregg
- 20:14:20 [sh1mmer]
- ack Tom
- 20:14:48 [wendy]
- tc there is a mechanism in place already. the issues around standardization are more appropriate to 'rel' attribute.
- 20:15:02 [wendy]
- tc home, glossary, search, etc. are implemented. perhaps expand those?
- 20:15:30 [wendy]
- tc opera also has a separate accesskey mode. if you want to use them, you enter the accesskey mode.
- 20:15:55 [wendy]
- tc in that mode, instead of activating the normal opera shortcuts, it activates the accesskeys in the web content.
- 20:16:33 [wendy]
- tc are you taking some of the flexibility away from authors by only allowing a certain set of standard keys?
- 20:17:01 [wendy]
- bg we do intend to make them expandable and user-definable.
- 20:17:05 [wendy]
- q?
- 20:17:26 [wendy]
- bengt? were trying to get into q?
- 20:17:37 [wendy]
- ack al
- 20:17:39 [sh1mmer]
- ack Al
- 20:17:48 [bengt]
- no was trying to see which phone was mine :)
- 20:17:55 [wendy]
- :)
- 20:18:14 [wendy]
- ag when you see the screen you may recognize the mnemonic.
- 20:18:27 [wendy]
- .. that value (the clue) is valuable.
- 20:18:40 [wendy]
- .. helpful if they are specific
- 20:18:57 [wendy]
- .. the initial mnemonic should be linked into a thesaurus.
- 20:19:15 [wendy]
- .. this benefits people who use symobl languages (e.g., bliss)
- 20:19:58 [sh1mmer]
- q+
- 20:20:12 [wendy]
- .. the author could define the precise mnemonic and link into the thesaurus. could be replaced w/a symbol.
- 20:20:35 [wendy]
- ag the hazard is that it is fine to activate the element when you've visually reviewed the page and recognize the mnemonic.
- 20:20:37 [sh1mmer]
- q+ to say What about groups of accesskeys like a set of menu items, should we really let accesskeys activate stuff
- 20:21:21 [wendy]
- ag don't want to drive them to focus and to use enter. if you are wandering the page, listening, you can't assume to know what the key will do.
- 20:21:35 [wendy]
- ag idea that it will focus and then the user has a separate action to activate.
- 20:21:45 [wendy]
- ack sailesh
- 20:21:59 [wendy]
- sp in terms of behavior, IE only gives focus however netscape activat.
- 20:22:01 [wendy]
- activates
- 20:22:28 [wendy]
- sp is language an issue? in english may say "go to content' and thus alt-c, however in another language what would you use?
- 20:22:41 [wendy]
- sp thus, not just diff between operating system also diffs with language.
- 20:22:45 [Al]
- Mnemonics may want to be localisable [from Sailesh] good point
- 20:22:54 [sh1mmer]
- ack tom
- 20:22:55 [Zakim]
- Tom_Croucher, you wanted to say What about groups of accesskeys like a set of menu items, should we really let accesskeys activate stuff
- 20:23:04 [bengt]
- q+ "does it need to mnemonics or just metadata"
- 20:23:14 [wendy]
- tc one of the cms that i worked on, we used accesskeys and translated them.
- 20:23:24 [bengt]
- q+ to "does it need to mnemonics or just metadata"
- 20:24:12 [wendy]
- tc is it ok to have all the menu items in a menu w/the same access key? groups of access keys.
- 20:24:22 [wendy]
- tc also want to note that accesskeys should not perform actions.
- 20:24:38 [wendy]
- tc in terms of usability, better to have people select an accesskey, go somewhere, and then decide if they want to activate.
- 20:24:46 [RichS_]
- q+
- 20:24:50 [wendy]
- ack bengt
- 20:24:51 [Zakim]
- bengt, you wanted to "does it need to mnemonics or just metadata"
- 20:25:35 [wendy]
- bengt - if you are speaking, you are breaking up.
- 20:25:47 [Becky]
- zakim, I am Becky_Gibson
- 20:25:47 [Zakim]
- ok, Becky, I now associate you with Becky_Gibson
- 20:25:57 [bengt]
- This is just for navigation or more general
- 20:26:13 [wendy]
- ack rich
- 20:26:21 [wendy]
- rs currently, accesskey could be used for both.
- 20:26:40 [wendy]
- rs should we have an accesskey on every menu item? no, think should have one for the menu group.
- 20:26:51 [wendy]
- rs then use a keyboard handler and the arrow keys to cycle through.
- 20:27:03 [wendy]
- rs we want to get people to major sections of their document through a device indie interface.
- 20:27:10 [wendy]
- rs there are a couple exceptions.
- 20:27:37 [wendy]
- rs what if I have forward/back on buttons? what if want to activate that? want that a default action or leave that up to the user agent to map those?
- 20:27:54 [wendy]
- rs if we define forward and next and the browser says "alt-f" always brings me forward.
- 20:28:05 [wendy]
- rs at the same time, also say activate it at the same time or leave that up to the browser?
- 20:28:07 [gregg]
- Q+
- 20:28:30 [wendy]
- q+ to say, "part of what i was raising yesterday was the 'rel' attribute and 'next' value"
- 20:28:37 [sh1mmer]
- q+
- 20:28:51 [sh1mmer]
- q- I concur with wendy
- 20:29:02 [sh1mmer]
- q- to say I concur with wendy
- 20:29:07 [wendy]
- rs want to find a standard set, but that doesn't mean authors can't create their own
- 20:29:36 [Al]
- The relationship between the standard set and the extension mechanism will be discussed more on next week's joint call with Semantic Web PF and WCAG
- 20:30:03 [wendy]
- ack gregg
- 20:30:12 [james]
- i also concur with wendy... use next and previous author-defined links, but back and forward should be completely up to the UA
- 20:30:56 [Al]
- PF is interested in solutions for all current uses; not a problem to separate navigation as a sub case
- 20:31:01 [sh1mmer]
- q+
- 20:32:15 [sh1mmer]
- ack wendy
- 20:32:15 [Zakim]
- wendy, you wanted to say, "part of what i was raising yesterday was the 'rel' attribute and 'next' value"
- 20:32:36 [sh1mmer]
- wc wanted to point out use of rel attributes for forward and next
- 20:33:24 [sh1mmer]
- wc think there is a lot of value in looking at table of possible suggestions in the tables becky provides
- 20:33:52 [wendy]
- rs don't want to define an accesskey for every role. however, here is a list of standard roles.
- 20:34:22 [Al]
- Yes, I had hoped to get to "stocks, weather, calendar" portlets as example things that would be candidates for hotkey assignment
- 20:34:35 [wendy]
- rs if the asst. techs needs to jump to each of those, they can do that throug the UA. what are the things not covered by role that are needed. portlet is good exmaple.
- 20:34:52 [wendy]
- rs adding semantic metadata to accesskeys.
- 20:35:05 [wendy]
- rs all i know is that there is an accesskey attached to an element.
- 20:35:31 [Zakim]
- -Loretta_Guarino_Reid
- 20:35:46 [wendy]
- rs the other info is for historical purposes. is that list good enough? you all know about that. that's why we're here.
- 20:35:47 [sh1mmer]
- did gregg ack?
- 20:35:50 [james]
- q+ to talk about portlets and UA access to heading navigation
- 20:35:51 [wendy]
- q?
- 20:35:56 [wendy]
- ack john
- 20:36:06 [wendy]
- js is this a proposal that we need to act on or are you asking for information?
- 20:36:27 [wendy]
- rs in xhtml 2 we are introducing alternative to accesskey called "access"
- 20:36:35 [wendy]
- rs want to define core set of things we need to get to in a page.
- 20:36:49 [wendy]
- rs there should be a default mapping in every user agent.
- 20:36:55 [wendy]
- rs it is device indie and extensible.
- 20:37:25 [wendy]
- rs if we were to create an alt to accesskey, should we also define a way to activate them?
- 20:37:29 [wendy]
- rs should the user agent override?
- 20:37:35 [wendy]
- rs (the author's settings)
- 20:37:53 [wendy]
- rs 1. are you happy w/the standard list 2. need some method for activation?
- 20:38:16 [wendy]
- ack Ben
- 20:38:30 [sh1mmer]
- gregg just go
- 20:39:19 [sh1mmer]
- ack Tom
- 20:39:50 [wendy]
- tc trying to understand the difference between this and 'rel'
- 20:40:09 [wendy]
- tc if we are going to define a standard set of metadata, it should either be in 'rel' or replace 'rel' with access
- 20:40:47 [wendy]
- q+ to say "there are two types of metadata being discussed, those appropriate in rel (external resources) and those that internal to current content (menus, portlets, etc.)"
- 20:41:05 [wendy]
- tc would be good to use metadata to describe custom functions.
- 20:41:51 [wendy]
- tc giving multiple items the same accesskey. using one key could go between a group of items.
- 20:42:05 [wendy]
- tc e.g., accesskeys on all inline links in a document
- 20:42:13 [RichS_]
- q+
- 20:42:20 [wendy]
- ack james
- 20:42:20 [Zakim]
- James_Craig, you wanted to talk about portlets and UA access to heading navigation
- 20:42:38 [wendy]
- jc functionality like that should be limited to the scripts instead of built into access key
- 20:42:38 [sh1mmer]
- scripts?
- 20:43:12 [wendy]
- jc portlets are at the programming api and presentation layer (html) would still be divs. it would be irrelevant that it's a portlet.
- 20:43:25 [wendy]
- jc would just be skipping through headings
- 20:43:32 [wendy]
- jc use link element to skip to content w/in the page?
- 20:44:05 [wendy]
- jc tc mentioned had the same accesskey for multiple items, and could tab through them (by their accesskey)
- 20:44:27 [wendy]
- jc should set up a script to set upinstead ofincluding in the markup
- 20:44:28 [wendy]
- q?
- 20:44:45 [sh1mmer]
- ack Mike
- 20:44:45 [wendy]
- ack mike
- 20:44:55 [wendy]
- mb sounds like a semantic web issues. is this the correct venue?
- 20:45:07 [wendy]
- gv more and more of our stuff deals with that area.
- 20:45:17 [wendy]
- ag brief plug for the joint call next wednesday:
- 20:45:27 [wendy]
- ag noon eastern, joint call between semantic web, pfwg, wcag wg
- 20:45:46 [wendy]
- more info at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0329.html
- 20:45:49 [wendy]
- ack sailesh
- 20:46:31 [wendy]
- sp today a sighted user doesn't know an accesskey has been set. that should be defined in xhtml2.
- 20:46:37 [wendy]
- ack wendy
- 20:46:37 [Zakim]
- wendy, you wanted to say "there are two types of metadata being discussed, those appropriate in rel (external resources) and those that internal to current content (menus,
- 20:46:40 [Zakim]
- ... portlets, etc.)"
- 20:46:45 [sh1mmer]
- user agent issue? couldn't be adddress by having reading accesskey used in doc?
- 20:46:57 [sh1mmer]
- wc two types of metadata being discussed
- 20:47:18 [sh1mmer]
- wc rel things external to the current conent, and ones internal to the document
- 20:47:42 [bengt_]
- bengt_ has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:47:48 [sh1mmer]
- ag rel would be appropriate for relating things on pages as much as external to page
- 20:48:32 [sh1mmer]
- ag the relationship is a generic relationship, anything which is related by a uri address is ok
- 20:49:22 [Zakim]
- -Bengt
- 20:49:35 [sh1mmer]
- wc access seems to be a device independant way to implement rel
- 20:49:36 [wendy]
- q?
- 20:49:47 [Zakim]
- +??P6
- 20:49:56 [bengt_]
- zakim, ??P6 is Bengt
- 20:49:56 [Zakim]
- +Bengt; got it
- 20:50:38 [Al]
- Rich, why not?
- 20:50:46 [sh1mmer]
- wc suggestion to let people think about the many points that have been rasied and rediscuss on the mailing list
- 20:50:53 [wendy]
- ack rich
- 20:51:23 [sh1mmer]
- rs answer to tom, agree with cyling threw items to the next semantic element
- 20:51:23 [wendy]
- rs if we hit the same accesskey again, go to next element w/those semantics. if portlet, 'p' could go to next portlet. could cycle through them.
- 20:52:14 [wendy]
- bg if people are thinking about this, please think about what accesskeys you would like to see.
- 20:53:32 [wendy]
- wac most meaningful piece is the semantics being provided, classes of objects.
- 20:54:31 [wendy]
- ag look closely at xhtml 2 drafts. current "access" is similar to old design. pfwg needs help.
- 20:54:47 [wendy]
- rs we (html wg) are getting close to last call.
- 20:55:16 [james]
- q+ to say how can you determine standard accesskeys that are appropriate for all web content: apps, news sites, blog, corp sites
- 20:55:27 [wendy]
- rs we (rich's team) are working with brwosers and asst. tech devs to get implemetations.
- 20:56:01 [wendy]
- ag, rs thx
- 20:56:13 [sh1mmer]
- q- James
- 20:56:13 [james]
- q_
- 20:56:22 [Zakim]
- -AlGilman
- 20:56:24 [wendy]
- Topic: programmatically located
- 20:56:26 [Zakim]
- -Rich
- 20:56:37 [wendy]
- js i have a draft, but haven't sent it out yet
- 20:56:45 [sh1mmer]
- js have a draft to send out but going to suggests some comments
- 20:57:00 [sh1mmer]
- js Jason has proposed set of defintions
- 20:57:53 [RichS_]
- RichS_ has left #wai-wcag
- 20:58:04 [Andi]
- I have to go
- 20:58:09 [Andi]
- quit
- 20:58:10 [gregg]
- q+
- 20:58:10 [sh1mmer]
- js they seemed to work as definitions, but rewrote the relvent sucess criteria under 1.1 and 3.1 l2
- 20:58:15 [Andi]
- Andi has left #wai-wcag
- 20:58:27 [Zakim]
- -Andi
- 20:58:33 [sh1mmer]
- js if we eleminate the sc then we remove the need for users to go to the glossary to work out what the sc mean
- 20:58:36 [sh1mmer]
- q+
- 20:59:01 [sh1mmer]
- js could take an action item to take one more attempt at this for clarity
- 20:59:24 [sh1mmer]
- gv worried about putting 6 lines of text in a sc it would make it quickly undecipherable
- 20:59:42 [sh1mmer]
- js not proposing to put whole definition in sc but pull out enough for clarity
- 21:00:07 [Zakim]
- -Mike_Barta
- 21:00:41 [sh1mmer]
- gv what part of definitions is unnecessary?
- 21:00:56 [sh1mmer]
- js going to get one of them to read
- 21:01:42 [sh1mmer]
- gv most worried about 'programmitcally identified'
- 21:03:09 [sh1mmer]
- js 3.1 l2 sc2 "One of the following is true: meanings and pronouncations are available in a standard machine readible form to be processed by user agents or assistive technology"
- 21:03:19 [sh1mmer]
- js hard to listen to a screen reader and read back
- 21:03:48 [sh1mmer]
- js "b) definitions of all text contents are provided in text form"
- 21:05:10 [wendy]
- tc the terms are fairly easy to understand, but the defns are to help clarify exactly what we mean.
- 21:05:30 [sh1mmer]
- ack tom
- 21:05:36 [wendy]
- tc people reading the glossary should get a good enough sense of what we're suggesting.
- 21:05:42 [sh1mmer]
- ack gregg
- 21:06:27 [sh1mmer]
- gv if we said we needed to implement it, and one person did it with rdf and another with xml. all of them are machine interpretable but its no use
- 21:06:48 [sh1mmer]
- gv putting all that in the sc would take several sentances
- 21:07:06 [sh1mmer]
- gv once you have the idea of the terms you don't have to look it up again
- 21:07:13 [sh1mmer]
- ack tom
- 21:11:12 [sh1mmer]
- ack john
- 21:11:34 [sh1mmer]
- js sentance by gregg contained the word or which gave options
- 21:11:45 [sh1mmer]
- js these could be represented by sc
- 21:11:57 [sh1mmer]
- sp can we collapse all these terms into one
- 21:12:12 [sh1mmer]
- gv they means three different things for three different reasons
- 21:12:33 [sh1mmer]
- gv they were split up to make it reasonable for them to be implemented
- 21:13:35 [sh1mmer]
- gv so having a "programmatically located" word would link to a dictionary "programmatically determined" would have to link to an exact meaning in the dictionary
- 21:13:55 [sh1mmer]
- q+ to say would like to hear johns proposals
- 21:14:00 [sh1mmer]
- ack sailesh
- 21:14:03 [Becky]
- q+
- 21:14:32 [sh1mmer]
- gv not sure identified if is same as determined
- 21:15:53 [sh1mmer]
- ack tom
- 21:15:54 [Zakim]
- Tom_Croucher, you wanted to say would like to hear johns proposals
- 21:16:24 [wendy]
- tc would like to hear john's proposals. thinking about the either/or cases may be suitable w/diff success criteria.
- 21:17:49 [sh1mmer]
- bg question about what "programmatically located" means
- 21:18:44 [sh1mmer]
- bg is something in a page with a link to the glossary "programmatically located"
- 21:18:55 [sh1mmer]
- gv as long as it done in a standard way
- 21:19:08 [sh1mmer]
- bg the user has no way of knowing if the word is in the glossary
- 21:19:43 [sh1mmer]
- issue: "derived programmatically" and "programmatically determined" are the same
- 21:20:17 [sh1mmer]
- resolution: "derived programmatically" and "programmatically determined" to be collapsed
- 21:20:34 [wendy]
- gv every word used should be in a lexicon. tool would identify words that are not in the lexicon. author then needs to link in another dictionary. cascading dictionary.
- 21:20:49 [wendy]
- q+ to say, "this magic does not yet exist"
- 21:20:52 [sh1mmer]
- q+ to ask about which term are we going to use post collapse of terms
- 21:20:53 [wendy]
- ack becky
- 21:20:56 [wendy]
- ack john
- 21:21:24 [sh1mmer]
- js do we want to seperate out definitions and prononciations?
- 21:21:46 [sh1mmer]
- gv yes the reason it was that way because glossaries and dictionaries already have them
- 21:21:59 [sh1mmer]
- js not necesarrly custom dictionaries dont
- 21:22:16 [sh1mmer]
- gv in our country (usa) alone they dont have the same pronounciation
- 21:22:28 [Zakim]
- -Kerstin_Goldsmith
- 21:22:32 [sh1mmer]
- js phonetic alphabets which dont work vry well with screen readers
- 21:23:16 [sh1mmer]
- js use two seperate issue
- 21:24:26 [sh1mmer]
- bc the terms identified is used distinctly in 1.1
- 21:24:35 [sh1mmer]
- bc only used in one place though
- 21:24:56 [sh1mmer]
- gv maybe use john strategy on that one which would result in only two terms
- 21:25:03 [sh1mmer]
- js concurs
- 21:25:47 [sh1mmer]
- ack tom
- 21:25:48 [Zakim]
- Tom_Croucher, you wanted to ask about which term are we going to use post collapse of terms
- 21:26:28 [wendy]
- ack wendy
- 21:26:28 [Zakim]
- wendy, you wanted to say, "this magic does not yet exist"
- 21:26:40 [sh1mmer]
- resolution: "derived programmatically" and "programmatically determined" to be collapsed use "derived"
- 21:26:53 [sh1mmer]
- i got it
- 21:27:17 [sh1mmer]
- wc a lot of these things dont exist yet, and how to make techniques
- 21:27:30 [sh1mmer]
- wc not sure where it would live in the techniques
- 21:28:10 [sh1mmer]
- wc plug the semantic web joint conference next week
- 21:28:18 [sh1mmer]
- wc really relevent to this dicussion
- 21:28:22 [wendy]
- info at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0329.html
- 21:28:40 [sh1mmer]
- wc would like a write up summary before meeting
- 21:28:48 [sh1mmer]
- gv agrees and will do
- 21:29:16 [sh1mmer]
- Al want to comment about the call next week?
- 21:29:26 [sh1mmer]
- Al we were wondering about who is invited
- 21:29:54 [wendy]
- action: gregg write up cascading dictionaries scenario and send to the mailing list before next wednesday's telecon.
- 21:30:18 [wendy]
- al? we're wondering about phone number for the pfwg call next week? do you plan to send to everyone or just to invited few?
- 21:30:27 [james]
- As for who is invited, the PF email says "Next Wednesday starting at noon, Eastern time (in the regularly
- 21:30:27 [james]
- scheduled PF telecon timeslot but for two hours) PF will welcome
- 21:30:27 [james]
- guests from WCAG, Semantic Web, and perhaps elsewhere to discuss
- 21:30:27 [james]
- accessibility applications of Semantic Web techniques."
- 21:30:59 [james]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2004Aug/0000.html
- 21:31:32 [bengt_]
- <-- is interested
- 21:31:40 [wendy]
- tom, john, bengt, becky, wendy
- 21:32:06 [james]
- i'm interested, too
- 21:32:14 [wendy]
- action: gregg send note to al with list of names of who is likely to attend next wednesday's call
- 21:32:28 [wendy]
- tom, john, bengt, becky, wendy, james, ben
- 21:33:27 [wendy]
- action: john work on defn of programmatically identified (perhaps get rid of?)
- 21:35:11 [wendy]
- tc you can have unstandard standard stuff. e.g., can use rdf in an odd way
- 21:35:27 [wendy]
- gv xml is a standard, but what you do with it, isn't.
- 21:35:41 [wendy]
- tc look at ISO?
- 21:36:00 [wendy]
- gv e.g., in a standard, markup, data model or metadata
- 21:36:10 [wendy]
- gv in techniques, define those things that are standard ways of doing this
- 21:36:28 [wendy]
- gv prog. located [defn]: don't think it needs to be machine-readable form.
- 21:36:42 [wendy]
- gv the intent of located is natural language not machine-readable.
- 21:37:08 [wendy]
- gv postpone prog. located defn until next week's discussion?
- 21:37:30 [wendy]
- sp how programmatically locate if not machine-readable?
- 21:37:40 [wendy]
- gv prog. located does not mean prog. determined.
- 21:38:04 [wendy]
- gv what you locate could be human text
- 21:38:20 [wendy]
- gv machine gets you there, but once there, human reads it
- 21:38:24 [wendy]
- js inaccessible pdf?
- 21:38:29 [wendy]
- gv that's not natural language, that's a picture
- 21:38:46 [wendy]
- gv should say that what you get to has to be accessible
- 21:38:50 [wendy]
- js can it be audio?
- 21:38:57 [wendy]
- gv if a caption provided and electronic text
- 21:39:04 [wendy]
- js the minimum, is that it has to be available in text
- 21:39:17 [wendy]
- gv do we want to require it be in text?
- 21:40:00 [wendy]
- wac concern about the needs of people with symbols
- 21:40:33 [wendy]
- gv could have audio w/captions. not machine-readable.
- 21:41:57 [wendy]
- action: gregg work on defn of prog. located (accessible. careful not to restrict the forms by saying text-only)
- 21:42:23 [bengt_]
- pf meeting would be when in CET ?
- 21:42:39 [wendy]
- next weeK: authored unit
- 21:44:29 [Zakim]
- -Sailesh_Panchang
- 21:44:38 [Zakim]
- -Matt
- 21:44:39 [Zakim]
- -Becky_Gibson
- 21:44:39 [Zakim]
- -Wendy
- 21:44:40 [Zakim]
- -John_Slatin
- 21:44:41 [Zakim]
- -Ben_and_Gregg.a
- 21:44:42 [Zakim]
- -Doyle
- 21:44:43 [Zakim]
- -James_Craig
- 21:44:44 [Zakim]
- -Tom_Croucher
- 21:44:58 [Zakim]
- -Bengt
- 21:44:59 [Zakim]
- WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has ended
- 21:45:00 [Zakim]
- Attendees were James_Craig, AlGilman, Wendy, Becky_Gibson, John_Slatin, Tom_Croucher, Kerstin_Goldsmith, Matt, Mike_Barta, Sailesh_Panchang, Bengt, Rich, Doyle, Andi,
- 21:45:02 [Zakim]
- ... Loretta_Guarino_Reid
- 21:45:22 [MattSEA]
- MattSEA has left #wai-wcag
- 22:10:09 [Al]
- Al has left #wai-wcag
- 22:11:01 [wendy]
- zakim, bye
- 22:11:01 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #wai-wcag
- 22:11:04 [wendy]
- RRSAgent, bye
- 22:11:04 [RRSAgent]
- I see 4 open action items:
- 22:11:04 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: gregg write up cascading dictionaries scenario and send to the mailing list before next wednesday's telecon. [1]
- 22:11:04 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/05-wai-wcag-irc#T21-29-54
- 22:11:04 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: gregg send note to al with list of names of who is likely to attend next wednesday's call [2]
- 22:11:04 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/05-wai-wcag-irc#T21-32-14
- 22:11:04 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: john work on defn of programmatically identified (perhaps get rid of?) [3]
- 22:11:04 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/05-wai-wcag-irc#T21-33-27
- 22:11:04 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: gregg work on defn of prog. located (accessible. careful not to restrict the forms by saying text-only) [4]
- 22:11:04 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/05-wai-wcag-irc#T21-41-57