19:52:51 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
19:54:01 <wendy> Meeting: WCAG WG
19:54:27 <wendy> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0318.html
19:54:38 <wendy> Chair: Gregg Vanderheiden
19:56:40 <sh1mmer> Zakim, who is on the phone?
19:56:40 <Zakim> sorry, sh1mmer, I don't know what conference this is
19:56:41 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, bengt, Zakim, Al, james, wendy, sh1mmer
19:57:08 <bengt> zakim, this will be wai-wcag
19:57:08 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled near this time, bengt
19:57:27 <bengt> zakim, what conferences ?
19:57:27 <Zakim> I see no active conferences
19:57:28 <Zakim> scheduled at this time are WAI_UAWG()2:00PM, WAI_WCAG()4:00PM
19:57:35 <bengt> zakim, this will be wai_wcag
19:57:35 <Zakim> ok, bengt; I see WAI_WCAG()4:00PM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
19:57:36 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has now started
19:57:42 <Zakim> +James_Craig
19:57:59 <james> Zakim, I am James_Craig
19:57:59 <Zakim> ok, james, I now associate you with James_Craig
19:59:29 <Becky> Becky has joined #wai-wcag
19:59:46 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
19:59:52 <Zakim> +AlGilman
19:59:55 <MattSEA> MattSEA has joined #wai-wcag
20:00:13 <Zakim> +??P2
20:00:27 <Zakim> +Wendy
20:00:36 <Zakim> +Becky_Gibson
20:00:49 <Zakim> +??P5
20:00:50 <Zakim> +John_Slatin
20:00:59 <wendy> zakim, ??P2 is Tom_Croucher
20:00:59 <Zakim> +Tom_Croucher; got it
20:01:08 <wendy> zakim, ??P5 is Kerstin_Goldsmith
20:01:08 <Zakim> +Kerstin_Goldsmith; got it
20:01:12 <wendy> zakim, who's on the phone?
20:01:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see James_Craig, [Microsoft], AlGilman, Tom_Croucher, Wendy, Becky_Gibson, John_Slatin, Kerstin_Goldsmith
20:01:21 <wendy> zakim, [Microsoft] in Mike_Barta
20:01:21 <Zakim> I don't understand '[Microsoft] in Mike_Barta', wendy
20:01:21 <bcaldwell> bcaldwell has joined #wai-wcag
20:01:23 <Zakim> +Matt
20:01:29 <Zakim> +??P7
20:01:31 <Zakim> +??P6
20:01:54 <sh1mmer> Zakim, I am Tom
20:01:54 <Zakim> ok, sh1mmer, I now associate you with Tom_Croucher
20:01:56 <wendy> zakim, ??P6 is Ben_Caldwell
20:01:56 <Zakim> +Ben_Caldwell; got it
20:02:01 <bengt> mute code 
20:02:05 <wendy> zakim, who's on the phone?
20:02:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see James_Craig, [Microsoft], AlGilman, Tom_Croucher (muted), Wendy, Becky_Gibson, John_Slatin, Kerstin_Goldsmith, Matt, Ben_Caldwell, ??P7
20:02:16 <Zakim> +[ATTcaller]
20:02:18 <wendy> zakim, [Microsoft] is Mike_Barta
20:02:18 <Zakim> +Mike_Barta; got it
20:02:21 <bcaldwell> zakim, Ben_Caldwell is Ben_and_Gregg
20:02:21 <Zakim> +Ben_and_Gregg; got it
20:02:45 <wendy> zakim, who's making nosie?
20:02:45 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, wendy.
20:02:48 <wendy> zakim, who's making noise?
20:02:49 <bengt> bengt did :)
20:02:52 <Zakim> +Sailesh_Panchang
20:02:59 <Zakim> wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Becky_Gibson (22%), Ben_and_Gregg (44%), ??P7 (8%)
20:03:09 <wendy> zakim, ??P7 is Ben_and_Gregg
20:03:09 <Zakim> +Ben_and_Gregg; got it
20:03:13 <Becky> I just muted
20:03:19 <wendy> zakim, who's on the phone?
20:03:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see James_Craig, Mike_Barta, AlGilman, Tom_Croucher (muted), Wendy, Becky_Gibson, John_Slatin, Kerstin_Goldsmith, Matt, Ben_and_Gregg, Ben_and_Gregg.a, [ATTcaller],
20:03:22 <Zakim> ... Sailesh_Panchang
20:03:23 <Zakim> +[IBM]
20:03:29 <wendy> zakim, mute Ben_and_Gregg
20:03:29 <Zakim> Ben_and_Gregg should now be muted
20:03:29 <bengt> zakim, who
20:03:30 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who', bengt
20:03:39 <wendy> zakim, Ben_and_Gregg is Bengt
20:03:39 <Zakim> +Bengt; got it
20:03:47 <wendy> zakim, [IBM] is Andi
20:03:47 <Zakim> +Andi; got it
20:03:50 <wendy> zakim, who's on the phone?
20:03:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see James_Craig, Mike_Barta, AlGilman, Tom_Croucher (muted), Wendy, Becky_Gibson, John_Slatin, Kerstin_Goldsmith, Matt, Bengt (muted), Ben_and_Gregg.a, [ATTcaller],
20:03:52 <RichS_> RichS_ has joined #wai-wcag
20:03:53 <Zakim> ... Sailesh_Panchang, Andi
20:04:19 <bengt> I installed a firewall yesterday and my dialpad is behaving spooky
20:04:28 <gregg> gregg has joined #wai-wcag
20:04:34 <wendy> zakim, Andi is Rich
20:04:34 <Zakim> +Rich; got it
20:04:41 <wendy> zakim, [ATTcaller] is Doyle
20:04:41 <Zakim> +Doyle; got it
20:04:45 <wendy> zakim, who's on the phone?
20:04:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see James_Craig, Mike_Barta, AlGilman, Tom_Croucher (muted), Wendy, Becky_Gibson, John_Slatin, Kerstin_Goldsmith, Matt, Bengt (muted), Ben_and_Gregg.a, Doyle,
20:04:48 <Zakim> ... Sailesh_Panchang, Rich
20:05:18 <Zakim> +??P11
20:05:20 <DoyleB> DoyleB has joined #wai-wcag
20:05:27 <wendy> zakim, ??P11 is Andi
20:05:27 <Zakim> +Andi; got it
20:05:52 <Andi> Andi has joined #wai-wcag
20:06:02 <wendy> Scribe: wendy
20:06:21 <Zakim> +Loretta_Guarino_Reid
20:06:38 <wendy> Topic: access key
20:06:43 <wendy> becky's message: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0324.html
20:07:22 <wendy> al provides update on pf discussions: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0328.html
20:07:31 <wendy> welcome to al and rich who are joining from pfwg
20:07:36 <wendy> (matt is also here from pfwg)
20:08:12 <wendy> bg difficult to find a keystroke that works on all browsers (since UAs have own set of keys and AT also uses keystrokes)
20:08:28 <wendy> bg proposal to have a standard set of keys (e.g., go to main content)
20:08:40 <wendy> bg user agents give access to those keys. might be diff keys for diff browsers.
20:08:54 <wendy> RRSAgent, make log world
20:09:11 <wendy> bg other issues with dynamic web content, e.g., javascript, asst. techs don't know how to respond to it.
20:09:31 <wendy> bg e.g., a div that is a menu. 
20:09:56 <wendy> bg a set of roles are also being discussed.
20:10:06 <wendy> bg there is overlap between accesskeys and some of these roles, e.g., "main content"
20:10:20 <wendy> bg role may be main content and may also want to associate an accesskey to jump to main content.
20:10:34 <sh1mmer> q+
20:10:36 <wendy> bg what does WCAG see as the accesskey? is it a worthwhile proposal? what is needed?
20:11:08 <wendy> bg proposed roles: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/att-0325/roletables.html
20:11:15 <wendy> rs each platform has a set of defined roles.
20:11:48 <wendy> rs define a standard set of roles that allow author to map to a class on the platform.
20:12:01 <wendy> rs accesskey is not device independent.
20:12:05 <wendy> rs burden on the autho
20:12:09 <wendy> rs want metadta for accesskeys
20:12:51 <wendy> rs do we also need to add binding, we don't just use accesskey to give focus but to activate objects
20:13:04 <wendy> rs what should the standard set of these keys should be?
20:13:10 <wendy> rs how should they be separate from role?
20:13:25 <wendy> rs UA will want control over, depending on user's needs
20:13:40 <Al> q+
20:14:11 <sh1mmer> q- Ben_and_gregg
20:14:20 <sh1mmer> ack Tom
20:14:48 <wendy> tc there is a mechanism in place already. the issues around standardization are more appropriate to 'rel' attribute.
20:15:02 <wendy> tc home, glossary, search, etc. are implemented. perhaps expand those?
20:15:30 <wendy> tc opera also has a separate accesskey mode. if you want to use them, you enter the accesskey mode.
20:15:55 <wendy> tc in that mode, instead of activating the normal opera shortcuts, it activates the accesskeys in the web content.
20:16:33 <wendy> tc are you taking some of the flexibility away from authors by only allowing a certain set of standard keys?
20:17:01 <wendy> bg we do intend to make them expandable and user-definable.
20:17:05 <wendy> q?
20:17:26 <wendy> bengt? were trying to get into q?
20:17:37 <wendy> ack al
20:17:39 <sh1mmer> ack Al
20:17:48 <bengt> no was trying to see which phone was mine :)
20:17:55 <wendy> :)
20:18:14 <wendy> ag when you see the screen you may recognize the mnemonic.
20:18:27 <wendy> .. that value (the clue) is valuable.
20:18:40 <wendy> .. helpful if they are specific
20:18:57 <wendy> .. the initial mnemonic should be linked into a thesaurus.
20:19:15 <wendy> .. this benefits people who use symobl languages (e.g., bliss)
20:19:58 <sh1mmer> q+
20:20:12 <wendy> .. the author could define the precise mnemonic and link into the thesaurus. could be replaced w/a symbol.
20:20:35 <wendy> ag the hazard is that it is fine to activate the element when you've visually reviewed the page and recognize the mnemonic.
20:20:37 <sh1mmer> q+ to say What about groups of accesskeys like a set of menu items, should we really let accesskeys activate stuff
20:21:21 <wendy> ag don't want to drive them to focus and to use enter. if you are wandering the page, listening, you can't assume to know what the key will do.
20:21:35 <wendy> ag idea that it will focus and then the user has a separate action to activate.
20:21:45 <wendy> ack sailesh
20:21:59 <wendy> sp in terms of behavior, IE only gives focus however netscape activat.
20:22:01 <wendy> activates
20:22:28 <wendy> sp is language an issue?  in english may say "go to content' and thus alt-c, however in another language what would you use?
20:22:41 <wendy> sp thus, not just diff between operating system also diffs with language.
20:22:45 <Al> Mnemonics may want to  be localisable [from Sailesh] good point
20:22:54 <sh1mmer> ack tom
20:22:55 <Zakim> Tom_Croucher, you wanted to say What about groups of accesskeys like a set of menu items, should we really let accesskeys activate stuff
20:23:04 <bengt> q+ "does it need to mnemonics or just metadata"
20:23:14 <wendy> tc one of the cms that i worked on, we used accesskeys and translated them.
20:23:24 <bengt> q+ to "does it need to mnemonics or just metadata"
20:24:12 <wendy> tc is it ok to have all the menu items in a menu w/the same access key? groups of access keys.
20:24:22 <wendy> tc also want to note that accesskeys should not perform actions.
20:24:38 <wendy> tc in terms of usability, better to have people select an accesskey, go somewhere, and then decide if they want to activate.
20:24:46 <RichS_> q+
20:24:50 <wendy> ack bengt
20:24:51 <Zakim> bengt, you wanted to "does it need to mnemonics or just metadata"
20:25:35 <wendy> bengt - if you are speaking, you are breaking up.
20:25:47 <Becky> zakim, I am Becky_Gibson
20:25:47 <Zakim> ok, Becky, I now associate you with Becky_Gibson
20:25:57 <bengt> This is just for navigation or more general
20:26:13 <wendy> ack rich
20:26:21 <wendy> rs currently, accesskey could be used for both.
20:26:40 <wendy> rs should we have an accesskey on every menu item? no, think should have one for the menu group.
20:26:51 <wendy> rs then use a keyboard handler and the arrow keys to cycle through.
20:27:03 <wendy> rs we want to get people to major sections of their document through a device indie interface.
20:27:10 <wendy> rs there are a couple exceptions.
20:27:37 <wendy> rs what if I have forward/back on buttons? what if want to activate that? want that a default action or leave that up to the user agent to map those?
20:27:54 <wendy> rs if we define forward and next and the browser says "alt-f" always brings me forward.
20:28:05 <wendy> rs at the same time, also say activate it at the same time or leave that up to the browser?
20:28:07 <gregg> Q+
20:28:30 <wendy> q+ to say, "part of what i was raising yesterday was the 'rel' attribute and 'next' value"
20:28:37 <sh1mmer> q+
20:28:51 <sh1mmer> q- I concur with wendy
20:29:02 <sh1mmer> q- to say I concur with wendy
20:29:07 <wendy> rs want to find a standard set, but that doesn't mean authors can't create their own
20:29:36 <Al> The relationship between the standard set and the extension mechanism will be discussed more on next week's joint call with Semantic Web PF and WCAG
20:30:03 <wendy> ack gregg
20:30:12 <james> i also concur with wendy... use next and previous author-defined links, but back and forward should be completely up to the UA
20:30:56 <Al> PF is interested in solutions for all current uses; not a problem to separate navigation as a sub case
20:31:01 <sh1mmer> q+
20:32:15 <sh1mmer> ack wendy
20:32:15 <Zakim> wendy, you wanted to say, "part of what i was raising yesterday was the 'rel' attribute and 'next' value"
20:32:36 <sh1mmer> wc wanted to point out use of rel attributes for forward and next
20:33:24 <sh1mmer> wc think there is a lot of value in looking at table of possible suggestions in the tables becky provides
20:33:52 <wendy> rs don't want to define an accesskey for every role. however, here is a list of standard roles.
20:34:22 <Al> Yes, I had hoped to get to "stocks, weather, calendar" portlets as example things that would be candidates for hotkey assignment
20:34:35 <wendy> rs if the asst. techs needs to jump to each of those, they can do that throug the UA.  what are the things not covered by role that are needed. portlet is good exmaple.
20:34:52 <wendy> rs adding semantic metadata to accesskeys.
20:35:05 <wendy> rs all i know is that there is an accesskey attached to an element.
20:35:31 <Zakim> -Loretta_Guarino_Reid
20:35:46 <wendy> rs the other info is for historical purposes. is that list good enough? you all know about that. that's why we're here.
20:35:47 <sh1mmer> did gregg ack?
20:35:50 <james> q+ to talk about portlets and UA access to heading navigation
20:35:51 <wendy> q?
20:35:56 <wendy> ack john
20:36:06 <wendy> js is this a proposal that we need to act on or are you asking for information?
20:36:27 <wendy> rs in xhtml 2 we are introducing alternative to accesskey called "access"
20:36:35 <wendy> rs want to define core set of things we need to get to in a page.
20:36:49 <wendy> rs there should be a default mapping in every user agent.
20:36:55 <wendy> rs it is device indie and extensible.
20:37:25 <wendy> rs if we were to create an alt to accesskey, should we also define a way to activate them?
20:37:29 <wendy> rs should the user agent override?
20:37:35 <wendy> rs (the author's settings)
20:37:53 <wendy> rs 1. are you happy w/the standard list  2. need some method for activation?
20:38:16 <wendy> ack Ben
20:38:30 <sh1mmer> gregg just go
20:39:19 <sh1mmer> ack Tom
20:39:50 <wendy> tc trying to understand the difference between this and 'rel'
20:40:09 <wendy> tc if we are going to define a standard set of metadata, it should either be in 'rel' or replace 'rel' with access
20:40:47 <wendy> q+ to say "there are two types of metadata being discussed, those appropriate in rel (external resources) and those that internal to current content (menus, portlets, etc.)"
20:41:05 <wendy> tc would be good to use metadata to describe custom functions.
20:41:51 <wendy> tc giving multiple items the same accesskey. using one key could go between a group of items.
20:42:05 <wendy> tc e.g., accesskeys on all inline links in a document
20:42:13 <RichS_> q+
20:42:20 <wendy> ack james
20:42:20 <Zakim> James_Craig, you wanted to talk about portlets and UA access to heading navigation
20:42:38 <wendy> jc functionality like that should be limited to the scripts instead of built into access key 
20:42:38 <sh1mmer> scripts?
20:43:12 <wendy> jc portlets are at the programming api and presentation layer (html) would still be divs. it would be irrelevant that it's a portlet.
20:43:25 <wendy> jc would just be skipping through headings
20:43:32 <wendy> jc use link element to skip to content w/in the page?
20:44:05 <wendy> jc tc mentioned had the same accesskey for multiple items, and could tab through them (by their accesskey)
20:44:27 <wendy> jc should set up a script to set upinstead ofincluding in the markup
20:44:28 <wendy> q?
20:44:45 <sh1mmer> ack Mike
20:44:45 <wendy> ack mike
20:44:55 <wendy> mb sounds like a semantic web issues. is this the correct venue?
20:45:07 <wendy> gv more and more of our stuff deals with that area.
20:45:17 <wendy> ag brief plug for the joint call next wednesday:
20:45:27 <wendy> ag noon eastern, joint call between semantic web, pfwg, wcag wg
20:45:46 <wendy> more info at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0329.html
20:45:49 <wendy> ack sailesh
20:46:31 <wendy> sp today a sighted user doesn't know an accesskey has been set. that should be defined in xhtml2.
20:46:37 <wendy> ack wendy
20:46:37 <Zakim> wendy, you wanted to say "there are two types of metadata being discussed, those appropriate in rel (external resources) and those that internal to current content (menus,
20:46:40 <Zakim> ... portlets, etc.)"
20:46:45 <sh1mmer> user agent issue? couldn't be adddress by having reading accesskey used in doc?
20:46:57 <sh1mmer> wc two types of metadata being discussed
20:47:18 <sh1mmer> wc rel things external to the current conent, and ones internal to the document
20:47:42 <bengt_> bengt_ has joined #wai-wcag
20:47:48 <sh1mmer> ag rel would be appropriate for relating things on pages as much as external to page
20:48:32 <sh1mmer> ag the relationship is a generic relationship, anything which is related by a uri address is ok
20:49:22 <Zakim> -Bengt
20:49:35 <sh1mmer> wc access seems to be a device independant way to implement rel
20:49:36 <wendy> q?
20:49:47 <Zakim> +??P6
20:49:56 <bengt_> zakim, ??P6 is Bengt
20:49:56 <Zakim> +Bengt; got it
20:50:38 <Al> Rich, why not?
20:50:46 <sh1mmer> wc suggestion to let people think about the many points that have been rasied and rediscuss on the mailing list
20:50:53 <wendy> ack rich
20:51:23 <sh1mmer> rs answer to tom, agree with cyling threw items to the next semantic element
20:51:23 <wendy> rs if we hit the same accesskey again, go to next element w/those semantics. if portlet, 'p' could go to next portlet. could cycle through them.
20:52:14 <wendy> bg if people are thinking about this, please think about what accesskeys you would like to see.
20:53:32 <wendy> wac most meaningful piece is the semantics being provided, classes of objects.
20:54:31 <wendy> ag look closely at xhtml 2 drafts. current "access" is similar to old design. pfwg needs help.
20:54:47 <wendy> rs we (html wg) are getting close to last call.
20:55:16 <james> q+ to say how can you determine standard accesskeys that are appropriate for all web content: apps, news sites, blog, corp sites
20:55:27 <wendy> rs we (rich's team) are working with brwosers and asst. tech devs to get implemetations.
20:56:01 <wendy> ag, rs thx 
20:56:13 <sh1mmer> q- James
20:56:13 <james> q_
20:56:22 <Zakim> -AlGilman
20:56:24 <wendy> Topic: programmatically located
20:56:26 <Zakim> -Rich
20:56:37 <wendy> js i have a draft, but haven't sent it out yet
20:56:45 <sh1mmer> js have a draft to send out but going to suggests some comments
20:57:00 <sh1mmer> js Jason has proposed set of defintions
20:57:53 <RichS_> RichS_ has left #wai-wcag
20:58:04 <Andi> I have to go
20:58:09 <Andi> quit
20:58:10 <gregg> q+
20:58:10 <sh1mmer> js they seemed to work as definitions, but rewrote the relvent sucess criteria under 1.1 and 3.1 l2
20:58:15 <Andi> Andi has left #wai-wcag
20:58:27 <Zakim> -Andi
20:58:33 <sh1mmer> js if we eleminate the sc then we remove the need for users to go to the glossary to work out what the sc mean
20:58:36 <sh1mmer> q+
20:59:01 <sh1mmer> js could take an action item to take one more attempt at this for clarity
20:59:24 <sh1mmer> gv worried about putting 6 lines of text in a sc it would make it quickly undecipherable
20:59:42 <sh1mmer> js not proposing to put whole definition in sc but pull out enough for clarity
21:00:07 <Zakim> -Mike_Barta
21:00:41 <sh1mmer> gv what part of definitions is unnecessary?
21:00:56 <sh1mmer> js going to get one of them to read
21:01:42 <sh1mmer> gv most worried about 'programmitcally identified'
21:03:09 <sh1mmer> js 3.1 l2 sc2 "One of the following is true: meanings and pronouncations are available in a standard machine readible form to be processed by user agents or assistive technology"
21:03:19 <sh1mmer> js hard to listen to a screen reader and read back
21:03:48 <sh1mmer> js "b) definitions of all text contents are provided in text form"
21:05:10 <wendy> tc the terms are fairly easy to understand, but the defns are to help clarify exactly what we mean.
21:05:30 <sh1mmer> ack tom
21:05:36 <wendy> tc people reading the glossary should get a good enough sense of what we're suggesting.
21:05:42 <sh1mmer> ack gregg
21:06:27 <sh1mmer> gv if we said we needed to implement it, and one person did it with rdf and another with xml. all of them are machine interpretable but its no use
21:06:48 <sh1mmer> gv putting all that in the sc would take several sentances
21:07:06 <sh1mmer> gv once you have the idea of the terms you don't have to look it up again
21:07:13 <sh1mmer> ack tom
21:11:12 <sh1mmer> ack john
21:11:34 <sh1mmer> js sentance by gregg contained the word or which gave options
21:11:45 <sh1mmer> js these could be represented by sc
21:11:57 <sh1mmer> sp can we collapse all these terms into one
21:12:12 <sh1mmer> gv they means three different things for three different reasons
21:12:33 <sh1mmer> gv they were split up to make it reasonable for them to be implemented
21:13:35 <sh1mmer> gv so having a "programmatically located" word would link to a dictionary "programmatically determined" would have to link to an exact meaning in the dictionary
21:13:55 <sh1mmer> q+ to say would like to hear johns proposals
21:14:00 <sh1mmer> ack sailesh
21:14:03 <Becky> q+
21:14:32 <sh1mmer> gv not sure identified if is same as determined
21:15:53 <sh1mmer> ack tom
21:15:54 <Zakim> Tom_Croucher, you wanted to say would like to hear johns proposals
21:16:24 <wendy> tc would like to hear john's proposals.  thinking about the either/or cases may be suitable w/diff success criteria.
21:17:49 <sh1mmer> bg question about what "programmatically located" means
21:18:44 <sh1mmer> bg is something in a page with a link to the glossary "programmatically located"
21:18:55 <sh1mmer> gv as long as it done in a standard way
21:19:08 <sh1mmer> bg the user has no way of knowing if the word is in the glossary
21:19:43 <sh1mmer> issue: "derived programmatically" and "programmatically determined" are the same
21:20:17 <sh1mmer> resolution: "derived programmatically" and "programmatically determined" to be collapsed
21:20:34 <wendy> gv every word used should be in a lexicon. tool would identify words that are not in the lexicon. author then needs to link in another dictionary.  cascading dictionary.
21:20:49 <wendy> q+ to say, "this magic does not yet exist"
21:20:52 <sh1mmer> q+ to ask about which term are we going to use post collapse of terms
21:20:53 <wendy> ack becky
21:20:56 <wendy> ack john
21:21:24 <sh1mmer> js do we want to seperate out definitions and prononciations?
21:21:46 <sh1mmer> gv yes the reason it was that way because glossaries and dictionaries already have them
21:21:59 <sh1mmer> js not necesarrly custom dictionaries dont
21:22:16 <sh1mmer> gv in our country (usa) alone they dont have the same pronounciation
21:22:28 <Zakim> -Kerstin_Goldsmith
21:22:32 <sh1mmer> js phonetic alphabets which dont work vry well with screen readers
21:23:16 <sh1mmer> js use two seperate issue
21:24:26 <sh1mmer> bc the terms identified is used distinctly in 1.1
21:24:35 <sh1mmer> bc only used in one place though
21:24:56 <sh1mmer> gv maybe use john strategy on that one which would result in only two terms
21:25:03 <sh1mmer> js concurs
21:25:47 <sh1mmer> ack tom
21:25:48 <Zakim> Tom_Croucher, you wanted to ask about which term are we going to use post collapse of terms
21:26:28 <wendy> ack wendy
21:26:28 <Zakim> wendy, you wanted to say, "this magic does not yet exist"
21:26:40 <sh1mmer> resolution: "derived programmatically" and "programmatically determined" to be collapsed use "derived"
21:26:53 <sh1mmer> i got it
21:27:17 <sh1mmer> wc a lot of these things dont exist yet, and how to make techniques
21:27:30 <sh1mmer> wc not sure where it would live in the techniques
21:28:10 <sh1mmer> wc plug the semantic web joint conference next week
21:28:18 <sh1mmer> wc really relevent to this dicussion
21:28:22 <wendy> info at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0329.html
21:28:40 <sh1mmer> wc would like a write up summary before meeting
21:28:48 <sh1mmer> gv agrees and will do
21:29:16 <sh1mmer> Al want to comment about the call next week?
21:29:26 <sh1mmer> Al we were wondering about who is invited
21:29:54 <wendy> action: gregg write up cascading dictionaries scenario and send to the mailing list before next wednesday's telecon.
21:30:18 <wendy> al? we're wondering about phone number for the pfwg call next week? do you plan to send to everyone or just to invited few?
21:30:27 <james> As for who is invited, the PF email says "Next Wednesday starting at noon, Eastern time (in the regularly 
21:30:27 <james> scheduled PF telecon timeslot but for two hours) PF will welcome 
21:30:27 <james> guests from WCAG, Semantic Web, and perhaps elsewhere to discuss 
21:30:27 <james> accessibility applications of Semantic Web techniques."
21:30:59 <james> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2004Aug/0000.html
21:31:32 <bengt_> <-- is interested
21:31:40 <wendy> tom, john, bengt, becky, wendy
21:32:06 <james> i'm interested, too
21:32:14 <wendy> action: gregg send note to al with list of names of who is likely to attend next wednesday's call
21:32:28 <wendy> tom, john, bengt, becky, wendy, james, ben
21:33:27 <wendy> action: john work on defn of programmatically identified (perhaps get rid of?)
21:35:11 <wendy> tc you can have unstandard standard stuff. e.g., can use rdf in an odd way
21:35:27 <wendy> gv xml is a standard, but what you do with it, isn't.
21:35:41 <wendy> tc look at ISO?
21:36:00 <wendy> gv e.g., in a standard, markup, data model or metadata
21:36:10 <wendy> gv in techniques, define those things that are standard ways of doing this
21:36:28 <wendy> gv prog. located [defn]: don't think it needs to be machine-readable form.
21:36:42 <wendy> gv the intent of located is natural language not machine-readable.
21:37:08 <wendy> gv postpone prog. located defn until next week's discussion?
21:37:30 <wendy> sp how programmatically locate if not machine-readable?
21:37:40 <wendy> gv prog. located does not mean prog. determined.
21:38:04 <wendy> gv what you locate could be human text
21:38:20 <wendy> gv machine gets you there, but once there, human reads it
21:38:24 <wendy> js inaccessible pdf?
21:38:29 <wendy> gv that's not natural language, that's a picture
21:38:46 <wendy> gv should say that what you get to has to be accessible
21:38:50 <wendy> js can it be audio?
21:38:57 <wendy> gv if a caption provided and electronic text
21:39:04 <wendy> js the minimum, is that it has to be available in text
21:39:17 <wendy> gv do we want to require it be in text?
21:40:00 <wendy> wac concern about the needs of people with symbols
21:40:33 <wendy> gv could have audio w/captions. not machine-readable.
21:41:57 <wendy> action: gregg work on defn of prog. located (accessible. careful not to restrict the forms by saying text-only)
21:42:23 <bengt_> pf meeting would be when in CET ?
21:42:39 <wendy> next weeK: authored unit
21:44:29 <Zakim> -Sailesh_Panchang
21:44:38 <Zakim> -Matt
21:44:39 <Zakim> -Becky_Gibson
21:44:39 <Zakim> -Wendy
21:44:40 <Zakim> -John_Slatin
21:44:41 <Zakim> -Ben_and_Gregg.a
21:44:42 <Zakim> -Doyle
21:44:43 <Zakim> -James_Craig
21:44:44 <Zakim> -Tom_Croucher
21:44:58 <Zakim> -Bengt
21:44:59 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has ended
21:45:00 <Zakim> Attendees were James_Craig, AlGilman, Wendy, Becky_Gibson, John_Slatin, Tom_Croucher, Kerstin_Goldsmith, Matt, Mike_Barta, Sailesh_Panchang, Bengt, Rich, Doyle, Andi,
21:45:02 <Zakim> ... Loretta_Guarino_Reid
21:45:22 <MattSEA> MattSEA has left #wai-wcag
22:10:09 <Al> Al has left #wai-wcag
22:11:01 <wendy> zakim, bye
22:11:01 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wai-wcag
22:11:04 <wendy> RRSAgent, bye
22:11:04 <RRSAgent> I see 4 open action items:
22:11:04 <RRSAgent> ACTION: gregg write up cascading dictionaries scenario and send to the mailing list before next wednesday's telecon. [1]
22:11:04 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/05-wai-wcag-irc#T21-29-54
22:11:04 <RRSAgent> ACTION: gregg send note to al with list of names of who is likely to attend next wednesday's call [2]
22:11:04 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/05-wai-wcag-irc#T21-32-14
22:11:04 <RRSAgent> ACTION: john work on defn of programmatically identified (perhaps get rid of?) [3]
22:11:04 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/05-wai-wcag-irc#T21-33-27
22:11:04 <RRSAgent> ACTION: gregg work on defn of prog. located (accessible. careful not to restrict the forms by saying text-only) [4]
22:11:04 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/05-wai-wcag-irc#T21-41-57