IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-05-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:51:48 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag

13:51:57 [wendy]

RRSAgent, make logs world-visible

13:54:06 [sh1m]

sh1m has joined #wai-wcag

13:54:10 [sh1m]

hiya

13:54:23 [sh1m]

Zakim, who's on the phone?

13:54:23 [Zakim]

sorry, sh1m, I don't know what conference this is

13:54:24 [Zakim]

On IRC I see sh1m, RRSAgent, Zakim, wendy, sh1mmer

13:54:33 [sh1m]

Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG

13:54:33 [Zakim]

ok, sh1m; I see WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes

13:54:38 [sh1m]

Zakim, who's on the phone?

13:54:38 [Zakim]

sorry, sh1m, I don't know what conference this is

13:54:39 [Zakim]

On IRC I see sh1m, RRSAgent, Zakim, wendy, sh1mmer

13:54:44 [sh1m]

bah

13:56:34 [MichaelC]

MichaelC has joined #wai-wcag

13:57:08 [Zakim]

WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has now started

13:57:14 [Zakim]

+Michael_Cooper

13:58:55 [Zakim]

+Jim_Thatcher

13:59:25 [Becky]

Becky has joined #wai-wcag

13:59:35 [JimT]

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13:59:53 [bcaldwell]

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14:00:08 [Zakim]

+ +1.978.399.aaaa

14:00:39 [MichaelC]

zakim, 978.399 is Becky_Gibson

14:00:39 [Zakim]

sorry, MichaelC, I do not recognize a party named '978.399'

14:00:48 [MichaelC]

zakim, +1.978.399 is Becky_Gibson

14:00:49 [Zakim]

+Becky_Gibson; got it

14:01:18 [Zakim]

+??P7

14:01:31 [bcaldwell]

zakim, ??P7 is Ben_Caldwell

14:01:34 [Zakim]

+Ben_Caldwell; got it

14:01:38 [Zakim]

+??P10

14:01:58 [Zakim]

+??P12

14:02:02 [sh1m]

Zakim, ??P10 is Tom

14:02:12 [Zakim]

+Tom; got it

14:02:12 [sh1m]

Zakim, ??P12 is Tom

14:02:16 [Zakim]

+Sailesh_Panchang

14:02:18 [Zakim]

+Wendy

14:02:20 [Zakim]

+Tom; got it

14:02:23 [wendy]

zakim, who's on the phone?

14:02:23 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Jim_Thatcher, Becky_Gibson, Ben_Caldwell, Tom, Tom.a, Sailesh_Panchang, Wendy

14:02:24 [sh1m]

Zakim, ??P1 is Chris_Ridpath

14:02:25 [Zakim]

I already had ??P1 as T.V.Raman, sh1m

14:02:29 [ChrisR]

ChrisR has joined #wai-wcag

14:02:30 [sh1m]

Zakim, ??P12 is Chris_Ridpath

14:02:31 [Zakim]

I already had ??P12 as Tom.a, sh1m

14:02:35 [Zakim]

+Matt

14:02:36 [sh1m]

man

14:02:42 [sh1m]

i jsut cant type

14:02:45 [sh1m]

heh

14:02:49 [Zakim]

+Tim_Boland

14:02:53 [wendy]

zakim, who's on the phone?

14:03:03 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Jim_Thatcher, Becky_Gibson, Ben_Caldwell, Tom, Tom.a, Sailesh_Panchang, Wendy, Matt, Tim_Boland

14:03:07 [sh1m]

Zakim, ??P10 is Chris_Ridpath

14:03:07 [Zakim]

I already had ??P10 as Tom, sh1m

14:03:20 [sh1m]

Zakim, ??p12 is Tom

14:03:20 [Zakim]

I already had ??P12 as Tom.a, sh1m

14:03:27 [Zakim]

+??P20

14:03:32 [wendy]

zakim, Tom is Chris

14:03:32 [Zakim]

+Chris; got it

14:03:38 [wendy]

zakim, Tom.a is Tom

14:03:38 [Zakim]

+Tom; got it

14:03:43 [wendy]

zakim, who's on the phone?

14:03:43 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Jim_Thatcher, Becky_Gibson, Ben_Caldwell, Chris, Tom, Sailesh_Panchang, Wendy, Matt, Tim_Boland, ??P20

14:03:51 [sh1m]

Zakim, I am Tom

14:03:51 [Zakim]

ok, sh1m, I now associate you with Tom

14:03:54 [wendy]

zakim, ??P20 is David_MacDonald

14:03:54 [Zakim]

+David_MacDonald; got it

14:06:06 [wendy]

traffic cop/relationship of documents

14:06:15 [wendy]

http://eramp.com/david

14:07:22 [wendy]

david's email to the list: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004AprJun/0267.html

14:07:57 [wendy]

last week: realized gateway was serving two purposes and decided to split out the "traffic cop" funtionality

14:08:51 [wendy]

"techniques repository" - series of generated documents - one technique per document

14:09:10 [wendy]

usability findings suggest that people are confused by being dropped into a document

14:09:36 [wendy]

q+ to say, "if people knew they were being dropped into a doc, might be less confusing. also, if knew structure of relationsihps between docs"

14:09:51 [wendy]

use case 1

14:10:27 [wendy]

http://eramp.com/david/traffic_cop_prototype_staticc_no_rows.htm

14:11:00 [wendy]

success criteria - these are synopses of criteria. to read whole thing, click on that link.

14:11:57 [wendy]

if click on a technique link, get a page that is just information related to this technology and this criterion

14:12:30 [wendy]

then can enter the document via, "Enter the techniques document at this point "

14:12:40 [wendy]

use case 2

14:13:08 [wendy]

http://eramp.com/david/links-from-wcag.html mock-up of guidelines

14:13:28 [wendy]

if select, "techniques for ..."

14:13:30 [wendy]

get http://eramp.com/david/traffic_cop_from_guidelines_checkbox.htm

14:14:08 [wendy]

again, could end up at http://eramp.com/david/techniques_multi.htm if check "technology independent"

14:15:43 [wendy]

http://eramp.com/david/traffic_cop_from_guidelines.htm

14:16:22 [wendy]

(instead of checkboxes)

14:16:33 [wendy]

either menu (left hand side) or checkboxes

14:16:58 [wendy]

benefit of checkboxes - could select more than one technology

14:17:06 [wendy]

to display at the same time

14:17:23 [wendy]

explanation of use cases: http://eramp.com/david/

14:18:41 [wendy]

is it possible given a technique, to determine which guideliens/success criteria it applies to?

14:19:15 [wendy]

there are a couple other use cases not spelled out here

14:19:52 [wendy]

q?

14:19:55 [wendy]

ack wendy

14:19:55 [Zakim]

wendy, you wanted to say, "if people knew they were being dropped into a doc, might be less confusing. also, if knew structure of relationsihps between docs"

14:20:41 [sh1m]

q+

14:21:27 [sh1m]

ack Tom

14:21:42 [wendy]

breadcrumbs - help people know where they are

14:21:47 [wendy]

in the process

14:21:51 [wendy]

also talking about checklists

14:22:00 [wendy]

checklists as process?

14:22:17 [wendy]

use checklist as way to encourage people to follow things through in a transparent way

14:22:37 [wendy]

checklist is a set of activities

14:22:58 [wendy]

guideline -> tech-indie techs -> specific tech

14:23:19 [wendy]

specific process. people can see where they are in the hierarchy and completing a task

14:24:34 [wendy]

thank you david for these!

14:24:42 [wendy]

go directly from guidelines to checklists?

14:24:52 [wendy]

will need to mock-up checklists

14:25:10 [wendy]

what will be in the checklists?

14:25:54 [JimT]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2002/07/f2f-minutes.html#subgroup-checklist

14:27:15 [MichaelC]

(original version)

14:27:17 [wendy]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2002JulSep/0286.html

14:28:12 [MichaelC]

(from Paul Bohman)

14:28:46 [wendy]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2003JulSep/0063.html

14:30:13 [MichaelC]

(Ben's rewriting as true/false statements)

14:31:36 [wendy]

currently have "tasks" but want true/false statements in a checklist

14:32:02 [wendy]

we have 2 use cases: the task that fits into the context of the technique and teh t/f statement for the checklist

14:32:08 [wendy]

relationship of checklist to traffic cop

14:32:30 [wendy]

guideline -> did you do html techs? did you do the css techs?

14:32:41 [bcaldwell]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2004/05/checklists/

14:32:57 [wendy]

checklist helps user check conformance

14:33:06 [wendy]

traffic cop is informative, learning, teaches how to do

14:33:13 [wendy]

one use case for traffic cop is informative

14:33:26 [wendy]

checklist - have you done it right

14:34:47 [wendy]

traffic cop asst - (use case 2) have guideline and success criteria, in that menu, could have checklist as an option

14:36:23 [wendy]

possibly have two sets of checkboxes: 1 "choose your technology" 2 choose checklist or techniques or both

14:36:47 [wendy]

checklists will reference techniques and guidelines

14:37:10 [wendy]

ben's mock-up (http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2004/05/checklists/)

14:37:21 [wendy]

complicated decision tree, for just one part of the guidelines

14:37:29 [wendy]

multiply that by 80

14:38:02 [wendy]

could split into chunks

14:38:16 [wendy]

in general, users prefer more pages than more scroll

14:38:30 [wendy]

like to see a mock-up of checklists as chunks

14:39:05 [wendy]

can't see case for linking to checklist directly from guideline

14:39:10 [wendy]

should be pushing informative information

14:40:16 [wendy]

techniques are "encyclopedia" and checklist are yes/no answer

14:41:11 [wendy]

what is the checklist item that i need?

14:41:24 [wendy]

if there is a way to split them up, "checklist items that this technique relates to"

14:42:01 [wendy]

brings up views question

14:42:08 [wendy]

in techniques, render both task and checklist item?

14:43:01 [wendy]

separate learning from evaluating?

14:43:03 [Zakim]

-Tim_Boland

14:45:52 [wendy]

from checklist, "i don't understand how to get this checkbox checked" refer back to the techniques

14:46:16 [wendy]

is evaluation best left to other groups? evaluation is part of determining conformance.

14:46:32 [wendy]

sometimes have to use 3 techniques to satisfy one criterion

14:47:12 [wendy]

mock-up a checklist - irrespective of success criteria, how does it line up

14:47:37 [wendy]

use case: evaluator going through content. what are the questions that i would check off

14:47:46 [wendy]

w/out too much confusing information (about other techniques)

14:47:56 [wendy]

perhaps "perfect checklist" is not one-to-one with techniques

14:49:35 [wendy]

e.g., "are there text equivalents for all iamges"

14:49:54 [wendy]

there are 2 techniques, but i don't need two checks

14:50:21 [wendy]

the interactive checklist asked specific about uses

14:50:27 [wendy]

and transformed accordingly

14:51:57 [wendy]

are we thinking of checklist items too concretely?

14:52:01 [wendy]

too specific?

14:54:49 [wendy]

however, need to provide those details so we do not have the proliferation of interpretations that we had with WCAG 1.0

14:54:52 [wendy]

AERT was written to help with that

14:55:05 [wendy]

perhaps checklists are for humans and test suites more for tool developers

14:55:08 [sh1m]

q+

14:55:16 [sh1m]

ack Tom

14:55:17 [wendy]

however, checklist need to definitely answer the question, "did i meet the guidelines or not?"

14:55:22 [wendy]

w/out specificity, how get there?

14:55:36 [wendy]

guidelines themselves are not specific enough

14:55:40 [wendy]

guidelines relying on checklists

14:55:55 [wendy]

after every technique, "how to evaluate"

14:56:06 [wendy]

i.e., link to checklist or test suite

14:56:19 [wendy]

test files

14:56:53 [wendy]

as was said, "how do i get this checkbox checked"

14:57:05 [wendy]

developer may want to know, "how will the content be evaluated"

14:57:29 [wendy]

if this will be dynamic, can we peel away layers?

14:58:28 [wendy]

give users control to show/hide granularity

14:58:32 [wendy]

don't force them into a particular view

14:59:20 [wendy]

new mock-up: use case 3 http://eramp.com/david/wheredoyouwanttogo.htm

15:00:17 [wendy]

two options:

15:00:24 [wendy]

Do you want to see if you did this - Checklists - http://eramp.com/david/custom_interactive_checklist.htm

15:00:41 [wendy]

Do you want to learn how to do it? goes to http://eramp.com/david/traffic_cop_from_guidelines_checkbox.htm

15:00:53 [wendy]

concern about complexity...web application functionality

15:01:11 [wendy]

what is the print version? what information needs to be included?

15:01:56 [wendy]

build these interfaces in later?

15:02:18 [wendy]

we need to make some decision about linking between guidelines and techniques

15:02:20 [donaldfevans]

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15:03:07 [Zakim]

+Don_Evans

15:03:42 [sh1m]

q+

15:04:42 [sh1m]

ack Tom

15:05:10 [wendy]

we've been exploring the end-to-end process

15:05:48 [wendy]

q+ to say, "at minimum, need to determine separation of tech-indie/traffic cop and linking between drafts...think june draft!!"

15:06:11 [wendy]

however, need to think of these as a suite of documents

15:06:21 [wendy]

need to decide a default view

15:06:33 [wendy]

of the static documents: what info is there, how do they relate?

15:06:47 [wendy]

from there, determine the deficiencies and fix those

15:07:05 [wendy]

make sure connections are based on success criteria

15:07:17 [wendy]

ack wendy

15:07:17 [Zakim]

wendy, you wanted to say, "at minimum, need to determine separation of tech-indie/traffic cop and linking between drafts...think june draft!!"

15:10:18 [wendy]

the static traffic cop - useful

15:10:34 [wendy]

need to communicate to public/community what we are envisioning

15:10:45 [wendy]

at minimum, images of different use cases/paths that we've discussed

15:11:29 [wendy]

action: ben take david's static cop and rewrite it in xslt so can generate

15:11:46 [wendy]

two weeks

15:12:29 [wendy]

gateway doesn't actually have any traffic cop info...is just the tech-indie

15:12:43 [wendy]

rename traffic cop "gateway" and rename gateway "tech-indie"

15:12:51 [wendy]

how does tech-indie relate to tech-specifics

15:12:54 [wendy]

?

15:13:35 [wendy]

current gateway - after read tech-indie will list tech-specific

15:14:16 [wendy]

another option posted to the list, coming from techniques get tech-indie no matter which tech-specific you chose

15:21:05 [wendy]

wac proposes that the main idea to convey from june draft is "big picture" not specifics

15:21:15 [wendy]

thus, link from guidelines to table

15:24:37 [wendy]

agreement that we need to paint big picture, but we need specifics to clearly paint

15:24:44 [wendy]

we need all pieces to show how fit together

15:25:32 [wendy]

suggest some draws a diagram that shows different ways that people could navigate through (end-to-end)

15:30:32 [wendy]

action: david, tom, wendy diagram all this stuff

15:31:02 [wendy]

action: tom add success criterion ids into the gateway

15:31:18 [wendy]

including links to tech specific in gateway?

15:31:54 [wendy]

separate xml doc and then pull in to whichever doc we want

15:33:16 [Zakim]

-Don_Evans

15:33:40 [JimT]

Have to leave for another meeting - see u later

15:33:56 [Zakim]

-Jim_Thatcher

15:34:58 [wendy]

perhaps use "slices" ala UAAG to divvy up by guideline

15:36:29 [wendy]

next week: review navigation approaches

15:36:38 [wendy]

review gateway and html techniques

15:36:47 [wendy]

end-to-end

15:39:01 [Zakim]

-Sailesh_Panchang

15:39:02 [wendy]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-CSS-TECHS-20031219.html

15:40:16 [wendy]

2 hour call next week

15:40:22 [wendy]

3 hour the week after?

15:40:50 [wendy]

any other views be ready for next week?

15:40:56 [wendy]

perhaps another draft of gateway

15:41:59 [wendy]

draft of gateway/traffic cop combined?

15:42:08 [Zakim]

-Chris

15:42:30 [wendy]

let sit as separate documents until have better understanding of diff views

15:43:49 [Zakim]

-Becky_Gibson

15:43:50 [Zakim]

-Matt

15:43:51 [Zakim]

-Wendy

15:43:52 [Zakim]

-Tom

15:43:53 [Zakim]

-Michael_Cooper

15:43:54 [Zakim]

-Ben_Caldwell

15:43:55 [Zakim]

WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended

15:43:56 [Zakim]

Attendees were Michael_Cooper, Jim_Thatcher, +1.978.399.aaaa, Becky_Gibson, Ben_Caldwell, Sailesh_Panchang, Wendy, Matt, Tim_Boland, Chris, Tom, David_MacDonald, Don_Evans

15:44:25 [wendy]

zakim, bye

15:44:25 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #wai-wcag

15:44:29 [wendy]

RRSAgent, bye

15:44:29 [RRSAgent]

I see 3 open action items:

15:44:29 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: ben take david's static cop and rewrite it in xslt so can generate [1]

15:44:29 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/05/05-wai-wcag-irc#T15-11-29

15:44:29 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: david, tom, wendy diagram all this stuff [2]

15:44:29 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/05/05-wai-wcag-irc#T15-30-32

15:44:29 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: tom add success criterion ids into the gateway [3]

15:44:29 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/05/05-wai-wcag-irc#T15-31-02