13:51:48 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
13:51:57 <wendy> RRSAgent, make logs world-visible
13:54:06 <sh1m> sh1m has joined #wai-wcag
13:54:10 <sh1m> hiya
13:54:23 <sh1m> Zakim, who's on the phone?
13:54:23 <Zakim> sorry, sh1m, I don't know what conference this is
13:54:24 <Zakim> On IRC I see sh1m, RRSAgent, Zakim, wendy, sh1mmer
13:54:33 <sh1m> Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
13:54:33 <Zakim> ok, sh1m; I see WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
13:54:38 <sh1m> Zakim, who's on the phone?
13:54:38 <Zakim> sorry, sh1m, I don't know what conference this is
13:54:39 <Zakim> On IRC I see sh1m, RRSAgent, Zakim, wendy, sh1mmer
13:54:44 <sh1m> bah
13:56:34 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #wai-wcag
13:57:08 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has now started
13:57:14 <Zakim> +Michael_Cooper
13:58:55 <Zakim> +Jim_Thatcher
13:59:25 <Becky> Becky has joined #wai-wcag
13:59:35 <JimT> JimT has joined #wai-wcag
13:59:53 <bcaldwell> bcaldwell has joined #wai-wcag
14:00:08 <Zakim> + +1.978.399.aaaa
14:00:39 <MichaelC> zakim, 978.399 is Becky_Gibson
14:00:39 <Zakim> sorry, MichaelC, I do not recognize a party named '978.399'
14:00:48 <MichaelC> zakim, +1.978.399 is Becky_Gibson
14:00:49 <Zakim> +Becky_Gibson; got it
14:01:18 <Zakim> +??P7
14:01:31 <bcaldwell> zakim, ??P7 is Ben_Caldwell
14:01:34 <Zakim> +Ben_Caldwell; got it
14:01:38 <Zakim> +??P10
14:01:58 <Zakim> +??P12
14:02:02 <sh1m> Zakim, ??P10 is Tom
14:02:12 <Zakim> +Tom; got it
14:02:12 <sh1m> Zakim, ??P12 is Tom
14:02:16 <Zakim> +Sailesh_Panchang
14:02:18 <Zakim> +Wendy
14:02:20 <Zakim> +Tom; got it
14:02:23 <wendy> zakim, who's on the phone?
14:02:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Jim_Thatcher, Becky_Gibson, Ben_Caldwell, Tom, Tom.a, Sailesh_Panchang, Wendy
14:02:24 <sh1m> Zakim, ??P1 is Chris_Ridpath
14:02:25 <Zakim> I already had ??P1 as T.V.Raman, sh1m
14:02:29 <ChrisR> ChrisR has joined #wai-wcag
14:02:30 <sh1m> Zakim, ??P12 is Chris_Ridpath
14:02:31 <Zakim> I already had ??P12 as Tom.a, sh1m
14:02:35 <Zakim> +Matt
14:02:36 <sh1m> man
14:02:42 <sh1m> i jsut cant type
14:02:45 <sh1m> heh
14:02:49 <Zakim> +Tim_Boland
14:02:53 <wendy> zakim, who's on the phone?
14:03:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Jim_Thatcher, Becky_Gibson, Ben_Caldwell, Tom, Tom.a, Sailesh_Panchang, Wendy, Matt, Tim_Boland
14:03:07 <sh1m> Zakim, ??P10 is Chris_Ridpath
14:03:07 <Zakim> I already had ??P10 as Tom, sh1m
14:03:20 <sh1m> Zakim, ??p12 is Tom
14:03:20 <Zakim> I already had ??P12 as Tom.a, sh1m
14:03:27 <Zakim> +??P20
14:03:32 <wendy> zakim, Tom is Chris
14:03:32 <Zakim> +Chris; got it
14:03:38 <wendy> zakim, Tom.a is Tom
14:03:38 <Zakim> +Tom; got it
14:03:43 <wendy> zakim, who's on the phone?
14:03:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Jim_Thatcher, Becky_Gibson, Ben_Caldwell, Chris, Tom, Sailesh_Panchang, Wendy, Matt, Tim_Boland, ??P20
14:03:51 <sh1m> Zakim, I am Tom
14:03:51 <Zakim> ok, sh1m, I now associate you with Tom
14:03:54 <wendy> zakim, ??P20 is David_MacDonald
14:03:54 <Zakim> +David_MacDonald; got it
14:06:06 <wendy> traffic cop/relationship of documents
14:06:15 <wendy> http://eramp.com/david
14:07:22 <wendy> david's email to the list: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004AprJun/0267.html
14:07:57 <wendy> last week: realized gateway was serving two purposes and decided to split out the "traffic cop" funtionality
14:08:51 <wendy> "techniques repository" - series of generated documents - one technique per document
14:09:10 <wendy> usability findings suggest that people are confused by being dropped into a document
14:09:36 <wendy> q+ to say, "if people knew they were being dropped into a doc, might be less confusing. also, if knew structure of relationsihps between docs"
14:09:51 <wendy> use case 1
14:10:27 <wendy> http://eramp.com/david/traffic_cop_prototype_staticc_no_rows.htm
14:11:00 <wendy> success criteria - these are synopses of criteria. to read whole thing, click on that link.
14:11:57 <wendy> if click on a technique link, get a page that is just information related to this technology and this criterion
14:12:30 <wendy> then can enter the document via, "Enter the techniques document at this point "
14:12:40 <wendy> use case 2
14:13:08 <wendy> http://eramp.com/david/links-from-wcag.html mock-up of guidelines
14:13:28 <wendy> if select, "techniques for ..."
14:13:30 <wendy> get http://eramp.com/david/traffic_cop_from_guidelines_checkbox.htm
14:14:08 <wendy> again, could end up at http://eramp.com/david/techniques_multi.htm if check "technology independent"
14:15:43 <wendy> http://eramp.com/david/traffic_cop_from_guidelines.htm
14:16:22 <wendy> (instead of checkboxes)
14:16:33 <wendy> either menu (left hand side) or checkboxes
14:16:58 <wendy> benefit of checkboxes - could select more than one technology
14:17:06 <wendy> to display at the same time
14:17:23 <wendy> explanation of use cases: http://eramp.com/david/
14:18:41 <wendy> is it possible given a technique, to determine which guideliens/success criteria it applies to?
14:19:15 <wendy> there are a couple other use cases not spelled out here
14:19:52 <wendy> q?
14:19:55 <wendy> ack wendy
14:19:55 <Zakim> wendy, you wanted to say, "if people knew they were being dropped into a doc, might be less confusing. also, if knew structure of relationsihps between docs"
14:20:41 <sh1m> q+
14:21:27 <sh1m> ack Tom
14:21:42 <wendy> breadcrumbs - help people know where they are 
14:21:47 <wendy> in the process
14:21:51 <wendy> also talking about checklists
14:22:00 <wendy> checklists as process?
14:22:17 <wendy> use checklist as way to encourage people to follow things through in a transparent way
14:22:37 <wendy> checklist is a set of activities
14:22:58 <wendy> guideline -> tech-indie techs -> specific tech
14:23:19 <wendy> specific process. people can see where they are in the hierarchy and completing a task
14:24:34 <wendy> thank you david for these!
14:24:42 <wendy> go directly from guidelines to checklists?
14:24:52 <wendy> will need to mock-up checklists
14:25:10 <wendy> what will be in the checklists?
14:25:54 <JimT> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2002/07/f2f-minutes.html#subgroup-checklist
14:27:15 <MichaelC> (original version)
14:27:17 <wendy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2002JulSep/0286.html
14:28:12 <MichaelC> (from Paul Bohman)
14:28:46 <wendy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2003JulSep/0063.html
14:30:13 <MichaelC> (Ben's rewriting as true/false statements)
14:31:36 <wendy> currently have "tasks" but want true/false statements in a checklist
14:32:02 <wendy> we have 2 use cases:  the task that fits into the context of the technique and teh t/f statement for the checklist
14:32:08 <wendy> relationship of checklist to traffic cop
14:32:30 <wendy> guideline -> did you do html techs? did you do the css techs?
14:32:41 <bcaldwell> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2004/05/checklists/
14:32:57 <wendy> checklist helps user check conformance
14:33:06 <wendy> traffic cop is informative, learning, teaches how to do
14:33:13 <wendy> one use case for traffic cop is informative
14:33:26 <wendy> checklist - have you done it right
14:34:47 <wendy> traffic cop asst - (use case 2) have guideline and success criteria, in that menu, could have checklist as an option
14:36:23 <wendy> possibly have two sets of checkboxes: 1 "choose your technology"   2 choose checklist or techniques or both
14:36:47 <wendy> checklists will reference techniques and guidelines
14:37:10 <wendy> ben's mock-up (http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2004/05/checklists/)
14:37:21 <wendy> complicated decision tree, for just one part of the guidelines
14:37:29 <wendy> multiply that by 80
14:38:02 <wendy> could split into chunks
14:38:16 <wendy> in general, users prefer more pages than more scroll
14:38:30 <wendy> like to see a mock-up of checklists as chunks
14:39:05 <wendy> can't see case for linking to checklist directly from guideline
14:39:10 <wendy> should be pushing informative information
14:40:16 <wendy> techniques are "encyclopedia" and checklist are yes/no answer
14:41:11 <wendy> what is the checklist item that i need?
14:41:24 <wendy> if there is a way to split them up, "checklist items that this technique relates to"
14:42:01 <wendy> brings up views question
14:42:08 <wendy> in techniques, render both task and checklist item?
14:43:01 <wendy> separate learning from evaluating?
14:43:03 <Zakim> -Tim_Boland
14:45:52 <wendy> from checklist, "i don't understand how to get this checkbox checked" refer back to the techniques
14:46:16 <wendy> is evaluation best left to other groups?  evaluation is part of determining conformance.
14:46:32 <wendy> sometimes have to use 3 techniques to satisfy one criterion
14:47:12 <wendy> mock-up a checklist - irrespective of success criteria, how does it line up 
14:47:37 <wendy> use case: evaluator going through content. what are the questions that i would check off
14:47:46 <wendy> w/out too much confusing information (about other techniques)
14:47:56 <wendy> perhaps "perfect checklist" is not one-to-one with techniques
14:49:35 <wendy> e.g., "are there text equivalents for all iamges"
14:49:54 <wendy> there are 2 techniques, but i don't need two checks
14:50:21 <wendy> the interactive checklist asked specific about uses
14:50:27 <wendy> and transformed accordingly
14:51:57 <wendy> are we thinking of checklist items too concretely?
14:52:01 <wendy> too specific?
14:54:49 <wendy> however, need to provide those details so we do not have the proliferation of interpretations that we had with WCAG 1.0
14:54:52 <wendy> AERT was written to help with that
14:55:05 <wendy> perhaps checklists are for humans and test suites more for tool developers
14:55:08 <sh1m> q+
14:55:16 <sh1m> ack Tom
14:55:17 <wendy> however, checklist need to definitely answer the question, "did i meet the guidelines or not?"
14:55:22 <wendy> w/out specificity, how get there?
14:55:36 <wendy> guidelines themselves are not specific enough
14:55:40 <wendy> guidelines relying on checklists
14:55:55 <wendy> after every technique, "how to evaluate"
14:56:06 <wendy> i.e., link to checklist or test suite
14:56:19 <wendy> test files
14:56:53 <wendy> as was said, "how do i get this checkbox checked"
14:57:05 <wendy> developer may want to know, "how will the content be evaluated"
14:57:29 <wendy> if this will be dynamic, can we peel away layers?
14:58:28 <wendy> give users control to show/hide granularity 
14:58:32 <wendy> don't force them into a particular view
14:59:20 <wendy> new mock-up: use case 3 http://eramp.com/david/wheredoyouwanttogo.htm
15:00:17 <wendy> two options:
15:00:24 <wendy> Do you want to see if you did this - Checklists - http://eramp.com/david/custom_interactive_checklist.htm
15:00:41 <wendy> Do you want to learn how to do it? goes to http://eramp.com/david/traffic_cop_from_guidelines_checkbox.htm
15:00:53 <wendy> concern about complexity...web application functionality
15:01:11 <wendy> what is the print version? what information needs to be included?
15:01:56 <wendy> build these interfaces in later?
15:02:18 <wendy> we need to make some decision about linking between guidelines and techniques
15:02:20 <donaldfevans> donaldfevans has joined #wai-wcag
15:03:07 <Zakim> +Don_Evans
15:03:42 <sh1m> q+
15:04:42 <sh1m> ack Tom
15:05:10 <wendy> we've been exploring the end-to-end process
15:05:48 <wendy> q+ to say, "at minimum, need to determine separation of tech-indie/traffic cop and linking between drafts...think june draft!!"
15:06:11 <wendy> however, need to think of these as a suite of documents
15:06:21 <wendy> need to decide a default view
15:06:33 <wendy> of the static documents: what info is there, how do they relate?
15:06:47 <wendy> from there, determine the deficiencies and fix those
15:07:05 <wendy> make sure connections are based on success criteria
15:07:17 <wendy> ack wendy
15:07:17 <Zakim> wendy, you wanted to say, "at minimum, need to determine separation of tech-indie/traffic cop and linking between drafts...think june draft!!"
15:10:18 <wendy> the static traffic cop - useful
15:10:34 <wendy> need to communicate to public/community what we are envisioning
15:10:45 <wendy> at minimum, images of different use cases/paths that we've discussed
15:11:29 <wendy> action: ben take david's static cop and rewrite it in xslt so can generate
15:11:46 <wendy> two weeks
15:12:29 <wendy> gateway doesn't actually have any traffic cop info...is just the tech-indie
15:12:43 <wendy> rename traffic cop "gateway" and rename gateway "tech-indie"
15:12:51 <wendy> how does tech-indie relate to tech-specifics
15:12:54 <wendy> ?
15:13:35 <wendy> current gateway - after read tech-indie will list tech-specific
15:14:16 <wendy> another option posted to the list, coming from techniques get tech-indie no matter which tech-specific you chose
15:21:05 <wendy> wac proposes that the main idea to convey from june draft is "big picture" not specifics
15:21:15 <wendy> thus, link from guidelines to table
15:24:37 <wendy> agreement that we need to paint big picture, but we need specifics to clearly paint
15:24:44 <wendy> we need all pieces to show how fit together
15:25:32 <wendy> suggest some draws a diagram that shows different ways that people could navigate through (end-to-end)
15:30:32 <wendy> action: david, tom, wendy diagram all this stuff
15:31:02 <wendy> action: tom add success criterion ids into the gateway
15:31:18 <wendy> including links to tech specific in gateway?
15:31:54 <wendy> separate xml doc and then pull in to whichever doc we want
15:33:16 <Zakim> -Don_Evans
15:33:40 <JimT> Have to leave for another meeting - see u later
15:33:56 <Zakim> -Jim_Thatcher
15:34:58 <wendy> perhaps use "slices" ala UAAG to divvy up by guideline
15:36:29 <wendy> next week: review navigation approaches
15:36:38 <wendy> review gateway and html techniques
15:36:47 <wendy> end-to-end
15:39:01 <Zakim> -Sailesh_Panchang
15:39:02 <wendy> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-CSS-TECHS-20031219.html
15:40:16 <wendy> 2 hour call next week
15:40:22 <wendy> 3 hour the week after?
15:40:50 <wendy> any other views be ready for next week?
15:40:56 <wendy> perhaps another draft of gateway
15:41:59 <wendy> draft of gateway/traffic cop combined?
15:42:08 <Zakim> -Chris
15:42:30 <wendy> let sit as separate documents until have better understanding of diff views
15:43:49 <Zakim> -Becky_Gibson
15:43:50 <Zakim> -Matt
15:43:51 <Zakim> -Wendy
15:43:52 <Zakim> -Tom
15:43:53 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
15:43:54 <Zakim> -Ben_Caldwell
15:43:55 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended
15:43:56 <Zakim> Attendees were Michael_Cooper, Jim_Thatcher, +1.978.399.aaaa, Becky_Gibson, Ben_Caldwell, Sailesh_Panchang, Wendy, Matt, Tim_Boland, Chris, Tom, David_MacDonald, Don_Evans
15:44:25 <wendy> zakim, bye
15:44:25 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wai-wcag
15:44:29 <wendy> RRSAgent, bye
15:44:29 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items:
15:44:29 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ben take david's static cop and rewrite it in xslt so can generate [1]
15:44:29 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/05/05-wai-wcag-irc#T15-11-29
15:44:29 <RRSAgent> ACTION: david, tom, wendy diagram all this stuff [2]
15:44:29 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/05/05-wai-wcag-irc#T15-30-32
15:44:29 <RRSAgent> ACTION: tom add success criterion ids into the gateway [3]
15:44:29 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/05/05-wai-wcag-irc#T15-31-02