IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-03-04

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:11:45 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
13:12:02 [wendy]
morning session:
13:12:12 [wendy]
present:
13:12:12 [wendy]
katie hartiso-shea, cessi
13:12:12 [wendy]
ben caldwell, trace r&d
13:12:12 [wendy]
tom croucher, uni sunderland
13:12:12 [wendy]
eric velleman, bartimeus
13:12:13 [wendy]
henk snetselaar, bartimeus
13:12:15 [wendy]
jose alonso, ficyt (w3c spanish office host, taw)
13:12:17 [wendy]
allistair garrison, accessinmind, ltd
13:12:19 [wendy]
shadi abou-zhara, w3c (ert wg, eowg)
13:12:21 [wendy]
wendy buckley, amadaeus (member, localization, usability)
13:12:23 [wendy]
andrew arch, natl info lib service (Aus), EOWG
13:12:25 [wendy]
lisa seeman, ubaccess
13:12:27 [wendy]
michael cooper, watchfire
13:12:29 [wendy]
wendy chisholm, w3c
13:12:31 [wendy]
===
13:12:33 [wendy]
afternoon
13:12:35 [wendy]
shadi, michael, ben, tom, jose, wendy
13:12:37 [wendy]
techs submission form
13:17:37 [wendy]
public-wcag2-techs@w3.org
13:25:39 [wendy]
pull-down for category and guideline reference need to be updated for changes in docs
13:27:00 [wendy]
action: tom create the script that will update category based on technology
13:27:22 [wendy]
action: ben populate the category with appropriate info once get script from tom
13:29:35 [ben]
action: ben to add a disclaimer "submissions are subject to WG approval and do not guarantee inclusion in a techniques working draft"
13:30:03 [sh1m|cannes]
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13:30:17 [ben]
action: ben to fix subject line to match "short name" for submitted technique
13:44:27 [wendy]
going through gateway bugs
13:44:32 [wendy]
285: closed
13:44:33 [wendy]
http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=285
13:44:45 [wendy]
302: closed
13:44:46 [wendy]
http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=302
13:44:55 [wendy]
517: closed
13:44:56 [wendy]
http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=517
13:45:31 [wendy]
520: assigned to tom
13:45:40 [wendy]
http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=520
13:45:45 [wendy]
521: closed
13:45:51 [wendy]
http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=521
13:48:04 [wendy]
522: assigned to tom
13:48:05 [wendy]
http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=522
13:48:21 [wendy]
523: assigned to michael
13:48:22 [wendy]
http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=523
13:48:37 [wendy]
524
13:48:59 [wendy]
lots of info in latest draft
13:50:02 [wendy]
how much move to gateway vs keep in guidelines/success criteria.
13:50:27 [shadi]
shadi has joined #wai-wcag
13:50:28 [wendy]
probably become guideline issue instead of gateway issue.
13:50:43 [wendy]
it's normative info required for success criteria.
13:51:32 [wendy]
526; http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=526
13:51:40 [wendy]
we need ids to nth degree, also apply to gateway
13:53:31 [wendy]
action: tom put ids on everything (to paragraph level, begun needs to finish)
13:53:56 [wendy]
assigned to tom
13:54:06 [wendy]
527: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=527
13:54:37 [wendy]
not link to bugzilla, link to the techniques form
13:55:12 [wendy]
no - about getting to issues from the document
13:55:32 [wendy]
action: wendy talk to judy about linking to issue lists
13:56:43 [wendy]
action: wendy and ben talk about "dead" link created by linking to issue summaries for guidelines that disappear.
13:57:51 [wendy]
possible solution: 404 redirect to query form or main bugzilla page.
13:58:10 [wendy]
528: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=528
13:58:27 [wendy]
closed. ben fixed the headers.
14:01:10 [wendy]
529: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=529
14:02:12 [wendy]
http://www.w3.org/2000/08/nba-manual/Overview.html
14:02:44 [joseA]
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14:04:41 [wendy]
leave open. tom will fix.
14:05:58 [wendy]
530 tom pick one
14:06:03 [wendy]
http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=530
14:06:48 [wendy]
531: close. leave as is. http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=531
14:07:57 [wendy]
532: use wording from guidelines (of text equiv)
14:07:58 [wendy]
http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=532
14:09:33 [wendy]
533: use wording from guidelines
14:09:33 [wendy]
http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=533
14:10:32 [wendy]
534: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=534
14:10:45 [wendy]
sounds html-like
14:10:55 [wendy]
however, controls need to be identified to the user
14:12:02 [wendy]
action: tom (and michael) figure out which part needs to be in gateway which part in html
14:12:12 [wendy]
535: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=535
14:14:32 [wendy]
metaprocess discussion about dealing with ednotes and bugzilla.
14:14:56 [wendy]
resolution: create a bugzilla entry for every ednote and cross reference (bugzilla) from ednote
14:15:20 [wendy]
assigned to tom
14:15:41 [wendy]
http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=536
14:15:43 [wendy]
closed.
14:15:53 [wendy]
http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=612
14:17:29 [wendy]
===
14:17:32 [wendy]
break in issue tracking.
14:17:39 [wendy]
ian demos Exit
14:18:12 [wendy]
(member access) http://www.w3.org/2003/12/exit/
14:40:28 [wendybreak]
right now, we're too engrained in bugzilla (too much data to transfer)
14:40:58 [wendybreak]
plus, the interface for bugzilla is more interactive (allwos our participants to edit, rather than only editing xml file).
14:41:10 [wendybreak]
look at again in a few months after they complete the xforms interface
14:41:27 [wendybreak]
perhaps at or before last call when will have less open issues to transfer.
14:41:34 [wendybreak]
look into copying their reports.
14:41:47 [wendybreak]
emulate their process via bugzilla.
14:41:57 [wendybreak]
reviewers, tracking communication with
14:41:59 [wendybreak]
(issue)
14:42:35 [wendybreak]
action: wendy and ben look at exit scheme and think about how to emulate in bugzilla.
14:43:17 [wendybreak]
perhaps export bugzilla data to their schema and use their tools to create reports.
15:06:08 [wendybreak]
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15:08:22 [wendy]
wendy has joined #wai-wcag
15:09:20 [wendy]
612: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=612
15:12:19 [wendy]
leave open. assigned to tom.
15:13:31 [wendy]
613: leave open. assigned to tom.
15:13:32 [wendy]
http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=613
15:13:39 [wendy]
also 614 and 615
15:13:47 [wendy]
651: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=651
15:14:25 [wendy]
assign to tom
15:14:33 [wendy]
http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=758
15:15:26 [wendy]
an overview of methodology
15:15:49 [wendy]
link to eowg drafts
15:15:58 [wendy]
testing info etc
15:16:04 [wendy]
assign to tom
15:16:15 [wendy]
http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=762
15:19:36 [wendy]
cms: if content hasn't been generated yet, doesn't know title of where going.
15:19:50 [wendy]
it's one technique for facilitating and understanding.
15:19:52 [wendy]
not a criteria
15:20:50 [wendy]
assigned to tom.
15:21:01 [wendy]
===
15:21:10 [wendy]
principle 1 intro (tom's preview of proposed text)_
15:22:41 [wendy]
ben has action to write intro to each principle
15:23:53 [wendy]
action: ben and tom draft intros to principles (to include in wcag 2.0 document as well as gateway)
15:25:18 [wendy]
===
15:25:21 [wendy]
test matrix
15:25:49 [wendy]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JanMar/att-0404/draft_test_matrix.html
15:29:07 [wendy]
move hpr to browser not AT
15:31:16 [wendy]
linux:
15:31:40 [wendy]
add emacspeak to linux as browser
15:32:16 [wendy]
add galeon as browser
15:32:39 [wendy]
add lynx and links as browsers
15:33:23 [wendy]
test other devices?
15:33:27 [wendy]
mobile phones (opera)
15:33:36 [wendy]
voicexml browser/phones
15:34:14 [wendy]
consider other platforms and devices
15:35:03 [wendy]
ipacs (linux), jaws on palm of some sort?
15:35:45 [wendy]
(open issue added)
15:36:44 [wendy]
add firefox as browser
15:36:50 [wendy]
add gnomespeak as at
15:37:19 [wendy]
remove ie5
15:38:36 [wendy]
action: jenae remove all currently listed ATs from linux table?
15:40:10 [wendy]
add input ats. speech recognition, keyboard interface, spellchecker/IE, etc.
15:40:20 [sh1m|cannes]
http://trace.wisc.edu/linux/current.html#speech
15:41:04 [wendy]
some of the links are broken, send feedback to trace
15:41:59 [wendy]
add netscape 4, opera 7
15:42:13 [wendy]
konq depend on KDE. what do for versions?
15:43:20 [wendy]
action: tom figure out good list of browsers for linux.
15:43:48 [wendy]
can we assume that people will stay more up-to-date w/linux?
15:44:19 [wendy]
macintosh
15:44:29 [wendy]
delete ie6 on mac
15:44:35 [wendy]
check for versions on safari
15:45:00 [wendy]
issues with running old versions of netscape on macs
15:46:08 [wendy]
generalize: netscape 3 and under group and assign a single priority
15:46:14 [wendy]
add omniweb to list of mac browsers
15:46:28 [wendy]
only screenr eader for mac was outspoken
15:46:39 [wendy]
most others delete
15:47:13 [wendy]
action: jenae to check on availability of assistive technologies for macs
15:47:25 [wendy]
action tom: check on apple screen reader
15:47:34 [wendy]
what about OSs that have the ability to enlarge text
15:48:25 [wendy]
include OS features: e.g., windows magnifier, mac speech output
15:50:08 [wendy]
issue: combinations of assistive technologies
15:51:48 [wendy]
add amaya to linux
15:53:14 [wendy]
windows
15:53:28 [wendy]
s/lynx/lynx for windows
15:53:36 [wendy]
s/lynx for dos
15:54:13 [wendy]
screen readers can't interact with dos windows
15:54:32 [wendy]
versions of the assistive technologies
15:55:35 [wendy]
action: jenae proposal for versions of assistive technologies (for windows)
15:55:43 [wendy]
add amaya for mac
15:56:02 [wendy]
supernova (hal+magnifier)
15:56:09 [wendy]
add
15:56:22 [wendy]
magic
15:57:00 [wendy]
magic's table navigation is from older version of jaws
15:57:25 [wendy]
aol have own browser
15:57:28 [wendy]
?
15:57:56 [wendy]
aol?
15:58:24 [wendy]
other platforms: webtv, other devices, etc.
15:58:46 [wendy]
webtv requires visual access and ability to use remote (system requirement)
15:59:43 [wendy]
break out windows into windows 98? windows xp, windows 2000, win nt
16:01:17 [wendy]
how diff are implementations between nt and xp?
16:02:14 [wendy]
netscape 4.7 on xp?
16:03:11 [wendy]
action: jenae does netscape 4.7 work on xp?
16:03:24 [wendy]
mac os 9?
16:03:47 [wendy]
add icab to mac
16:04:11 [wendy]
linux: KDE 1, 2
16:04:29 [wendy]
s/KDE 2,3, gnome 1,2
16:05:02 [wendy]
===
16:05:06 [wendy]
define priorities for test matrix
16:07:48 [wendy]
must, should, may
16:07:52 [wendy]
accept submissions at any level
16:07:59 [wendy]
must - only level verify. not sure how much verify.
16:08:31 [wendy]
notes about at quirks could scare away developers.
16:08:43 [wendy]
"this doesn't work in jaws 4" could result in someone not doing it.
16:09:01 [wendy]
p1 - we have to do ourselves (we need to ensure the fidelity of the test)
16:09:18 [wendy]
p2 - things we can scour other resources for (only testourselves if unsure about)
16:09:23 [wendy]
p3 - things we're not going to do
16:09:30 [wendy]
if we stumble across info, log
16:11:45 [wendy]
p1 - we must obtain test data
16:11:53 [wendy]
p2 - we should try to get decent test data if we can
16:11:58 [wendy]
p3 - nice to have
16:12:18 [wendy]
are there things we exclude from p1?
16:12:32 [wendy]
e.g., no longer supported by company who built? older than x years old?
16:13:09 [wendy]
i.e., what is likely to fall into p1?
16:13:12 [wendy]
common use?
16:17:43 [wendy]
netscape 4.71 pre 2000 (6 came out in 2000)
16:18:41 [wendy]
4th quarter 1999
16:23:07 [wendy]
look at browser logs
16:23:48 [wendy]
security issues are forcing upgrades
16:24:25 [wendy]
eowg business case benefits is compatibility to older browsers.
16:26:37 [wendy]
action: tom check if can use access logs from company has worked with
16:26:53 [wendy]
see if can use it anonymously
16:28:17 [wendy]
action: wac w3c logs
16:28:21 [wendy]
action: ben w3c logs
16:28:44 [wendy]
action: wac check with offices to get differences in browser use around the world
16:28:59 [wendy]
won't get asst. tech use from logs.
16:30:07 [wendy]
to determine p1: look at log data (most commonly used browsers) + a few choice older browsers + some asst techs
16:32:06 [wendy]
cmn via sidar could fidn out s. america
16:32:19 [wendy]
find time categorizing what needs to be done in general sense
16:32:29 [wendy]
this is what we can do...if others want to do more...here you go
16:33:54 [wendy]
other organizations to do testing on certain platforms?
16:34:05 [wendy]
w3cschools (interesting stats)
16:34:41 [wendy]
ie6 72%, moz 9, netscape 4 <1/2%
16:34:49 [wendy]
opera 2% (but it's set to "lie")
16:36:41 [wendy]
usage axis (for browsers). assist. techs - how determine? dno't havfe the same data.
16:43:29 [wendy]
uaag for last call: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/impl-pr2/
16:43:38 [wendy]
select different browsers depending on the test?
16:44:56 [wendy]
does the expected behavior happen? does anything happen?
16:45:32 [wendy]
action: jenae and wendy to consider further, make initial proposal
16:49:51 [joseA]
joseA has left #wai-wcag
16:51:48 [wendy]
RRSAgent, help?
16:51:48 [wendy]
I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'help'
16:54:28 [wendy]
rrsagent, make logs world-visible
16:54:42 [wendy]
rrsagent, bye
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
I see 21 open action items:
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: tom create the script that will update category based on technology [1]
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T13-27-00
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ben populate the category with appropriate info once get script from tom [2]
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T13-27-22
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ben to add a disclaimer "submissions are subject to WG approval and do not guarantee inclusion in a techniques working draft" [3]
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T13-29-35
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ben to fix subject line to match "short name" for submitted technique [4]
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T13-30-17
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: tom put ids on everything (to paragraph level, begun needs to finish) [5]
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T13-53-31
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: wendy talk to judy about linking to issue lists [6]
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T13-55-32
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: wendy and ben talk about "dead" link created by linking to issue summaries for guidelines that disappear. [7]
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T13-56-43
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: tom (and michael) figure out which part needs to be in gateway which part in html [8]
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T14-12-02
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: wendy and ben look at exit scheme and think about how to emulate in bugzilla. [9]
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T14-42-35
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ben and tom draft intros to principles (to include in wcag 2.0 document as well as gateway) [10]
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T15-23-53
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jenae remove all currently listed ATs from linux table? [11]
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T15-38-36
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: tom figure out good list of browsers for linux. [12]
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T15-43-20
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jenae to check on availability of assistive technologies for macs [13]
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T15-47-13
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: tom to check on apple screen reader [14]
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T15-47-25
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jenae proposal for versions of assistive technologies (for windows) [15]
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T15-55-35
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jenae does netscape 4.7 work on xp? [16]
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T16-03-11
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: tom check if can use access logs from company has worked with [17]
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T16-26-37
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: wac w3c logs [18]
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T16-28-17
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ben w3c logs [19]
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T16-28-21
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: wac check with offices to get differences in browser use around the world [20]
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T16-28-44
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jenae and wendy to consider further, make initial proposal [21]
16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T16-45-32
16:54:57 [ben]
ben has left #wai-wcag