IRC log of wai-wcag on 2003-11-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:55:33 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
20:55:48 [wendy]
lots of folks sent regrets today.
20:55:52 [Yvette]
Yeah I know
20:55:59 [Yvette]
Bad timing I guess
20:56:05 [wendy]
most of the IRC folks (Tom, Roberto, etc.) will be a little lonely on irc today.
20:56:24 [Yvette]
Bengt will be here I think
20:56:40 [Yvette]
identity crisis?
20:56:42 [Yvette]
20:56:49 [wendy]
wendy has changed the topic to: wai-wcag cozy tea time
20:56:53 [Yvette]
20:56:55 [wendy]
nope, just wrong command.
20:57:00 [wendy]
20:57:04 [Yvette]
tea, that's a plan!
20:57:13 [wendy]
tea hee
20:57:30 [wendy]
i'll brb. gonna get my tea.
20:57:41 [wendy]
zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
20:57:41 [Zakim]
ok, wendy; I see WAI_WCAG()4:00PM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
20:57:43 [Yvette]
I've just made me a tank to get me through the night :-)
20:57:52 [wendy]
tank - giggle.
20:57:59 [Yvette]
about 1/2 a gallon
20:58:13 [Yvette]
or 2+ liters, depending on where you are in the world
20:59:21 [Yvette]
I have been wanting to ask you something, can you stay for a few minutes after the telecon?
20:59:27 [Yvette]
It's about an action item I took
21:00:22 [wendy]
yes, i can stay afterwards.
21:00:22 [DoyleB]
DoyleB has joined #wai-wcag
21:00:24 [Yvette]
welcome back :-)
21:00:26 [wendy]
hello doyle
21:00:27 [Yvette]
ok, talk to you then
21:00:28 [DoyleB]
hi all
21:00:43 [Yvette]
Hi DoyleB
21:01:10 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has now started
21:01:12 [Zakim]
21:01:24 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
21:01:24 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Wendy
21:01:31 [Zakim]
21:01:46 [wendy]
zakim, ??P2 is Kerstin_Goldsmith
21:01:46 [Zakim]
+Kerstin_Goldsmith; got it
21:02:23 [Zakim]
21:02:34 [wendy]
zakim, ??P4 is Doyle_Burnett
21:02:34 [Zakim]
+Doyle_Burnett; got it
21:03:10 [Zakim]
21:03:11 [Zakim]
21:03:15 [m3mSEA]
m3mSEA has joined #wai-wcag
21:03:31 [Yvette]
I'm having trouble getting through
21:03:41 [Yvette]
It doesn't ask for the 9224 code
21:03:50 [wendy]
hmm. yvette, that's odd.
21:04:17 [Yvette]
it works now
21:04:17 [Zakim]
21:04:19 [Zakim]
21:04:26 [wendy]
zakim, ??P10 may be Yvette
21:04:26 [Zakim]
+Yvette?; got it
21:04:37 [Yvette]
zakim, I am Yvette
21:04:37 [Zakim]
ok, Yvette, I now associate you with Yvette?
21:04:43 [wendy]
zakim, ??P11 may be Cynthia
21:04:43 [Zakim]
+Cynthia?; got it
21:04:50 [Zakim]
21:04:58 [Zakim]
21:04:59 [Yvette]
zakim, I am Yvette_Hoitink
21:04:59 [Zakim]
sorry, Yvette, I do not see a party named 'Yvette_Hoitink'
21:05:06 [Yvette]
zakim, Yvette is Yvette_Hoitink
21:05:06 [Zakim]
+Yvette_Hoitink; got it
21:05:17 [wendy]
zakim, mute yvette
21:05:17 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
21:05:19 [bengt]
bengt has joined #wai-wcag
21:05:27 [Yvette]
ok, I'll reconnect
21:05:30 [Zakim]
21:05:32 [Zakim]
21:05:40 [wendy]
zakim, ??P12 is Cynthia_Shelly
21:05:40 [Zakim]
+Cynthia_Shelly; got it
21:05:50 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
21:05:50 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Wendy, Kerstin_Goldsmith, Doyle_Burnett, Matt, JasonWhite, John_Slatin, Cynthia_Shelly
21:05:54 [Yvette]
it's not my lucky night
21:06:04 [Zakim]
21:06:10 [Yvette]
zakim, I am ??p13
21:06:10 [Zakim]
+Yvette; got it
21:06:23 [Yvette]
zakim, Yvette is Yvette_Hoitink
21:06:23 [Zakim]
+Yvette_Hoitink; got it
21:06:32 [Zakim]
21:06:49 [wendy]
zakim, who's making noise?
21:07:00 [Zakim]
wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Doyle_Burnett (10%), John_Slatin (4%), Cynthia_Shelly (4%), [IBM] (4%), Wendy (44%), JasonWhite (36%)
21:07:08 [Zakim]
21:07:15 [wendy]
zakim, ??P16 is Bengt
21:07:15 [Zakim]
+Bengt; got it
21:07:43 [bengt]
zakim, I am Bengt
21:07:43 [Zakim]
ok, bengt, I now associate you with Bengt
21:07:56 [wendy]
21:09:37 [Zakim]
21:09:48 [wendy]
zakim, ??P17 is Mike_Barta
21:09:48 [Zakim]
+Mike_Barta; got it
21:10:13 [wendy]
Kudos to Ben for the quick turn-around!
21:11:35 [wendy]
group agrees to publish this to TR.
21:11:48 [wendy]
21:12:08 [wendy]
Testability of the success criteria in WCAG 2.0, with suggestions
21:12:08 [wendy]
for change.
21:12:15 [wendy]
21:13:46 [Zakim]
21:13:56 [wendy]
zakim, ??P18 is Gregg
21:13:56 [Zakim]
+Gregg; got it
21:14:55 [GVAN]
GVAN has joined #wai-wcag
21:17:43 [Yvette]
What do the [X] mean behind the success criteria?
21:20:04 [wendy]
content must be [perceivable, operable, understandable]
21:20:23 [wendy]
principle of writing principles that way works.
21:21:10 [Yvette]
zakim, mute me
21:21:10 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
21:21:22 [wendy]
john's proposal of guideline 1.1
21:22:16 [wendy]
For non-text content, provide text equivalents that serve the same
21:22:16 [wendy]
purpose or convey the same information as the non-text content, except
21:22:16 [wendy]
when the purpose of the non-text content is to create a specific sensory
21:22:17 [wendy]
experience (for example, music, visual art) in which case a text label
21:22:17 [wendy]
and description are sufficient.
21:22:27 [wendy]
21:22:35 [wendy]
'sensory experience' - anything that is not?
21:22:53 [wendy]
concern that "text label and description"
21:23:11 [wendy]
maybe places where text label is adequate.
21:23:24 [wendy]
text label and/or description?
21:23:59 [wendy]
label - beethoven example seems fine.
21:24:32 [wendy]
descriptive text label?
21:24:42 [wendy]
descriptive text?
21:24:57 [wendy]
could either be label or description
21:25:04 [wendy]
use 'or' instead of 'and'
21:25:22 [wendy]
a text label or description is sufficient
21:25:26 [wendy]
21:26:32 [wendy]
SC1 Text equivalents are explicitly associated with non-text content, except
21:26:32 [wendy]
when the non-text content is intended to create a specific sensory
21:26:32 [wendy]
experience (for example, music without words, visual art).
21:26:54 [wendy]
21:26:59 [Yvette]
zakim, unmute me
21:26:59 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
21:27:02 [wendy]
2 bullets underneath
21:28:02 [wendy]
1st bullet: The text equivalent fulfills the same function as the author intended
21:28:02 [wendy]
for the non-text content (that is, it conveys all of the intended
21:28:02 [wendy]
information and achieves the same function as the non-text content).
21:28:21 [wendy]
21:28:24 [wendy]
21:28:28 [wendy]
is it testable?
21:28:46 [wendy]
who is doing the testing? if by author, yes.
21:29:15 [m3mSEA]
zakim, who's making noise?
21:29:26 [Zakim]
m3mSEA, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Yvette_Hoitink (4%), Gregg (45%)
21:29:37 [wendy]
SC2 non-text content that is designed to create a specific sensory
21:29:37 [wendy]
experience (such as music without words or visual art)
21:29:37 [wendy]
has a text label and a text description.
21:29:41 [wendy]
21:29:54 [wendy]
21:29:58 [wendy]
diff between level 1 and level 2?
21:30:13 [wendy]
not diff levels. 2 criteria are similar.
21:30:29 [wendy]
1st one: about non-text items for which there is a true equivalent. 2nd - not a true text equivalent.
21:30:36 [wendy]
both are level 1
21:32:34 [wendy]
level 2
21:32:41 [wendy]
decrease credibility to have it in there
21:32:53 [wendy]
(collated text transcript)
21:33:19 [wendy]
level 3 is for those who want to go above and beyond.
21:35:33 [wendy]
don't think it would damage credibility.
21:36:26 [wendy]
in AIR contest, had transcript of captions, and audio descriptions, and could have created a collated transcript.
21:36:48 [wendy]
delete first level 2, move second to level 3
21:37:40 [wendy]
"a single text document which merges...into a collated transcript..."
21:37:54 [wendy]
did this to define collated transcript.
21:38:30 [wendy]
"a single text doc is included...dialog and important sounds such as a script or a document which merges"
21:38:34 [wendy]
21:38:57 [wendy]
+ (e.g., a script or document that merges them)
21:39:05 [wendy]
so that people have some idea of what we're talking about.
21:39:12 [wendy]
don't specify only way to create is merging.
21:39:45 [wendy]
a single text doc is provided that includes all important dialog ...
21:39:58 [wendy]
of audio description and captions into a collated transcript.
21:40:04 [wendy]
don't need parantheses
21:40:07 [Zakim]
21:40:11 [wendy]
will people wonder where it came from?
21:41:02 [wendy]
careful with use of "script"
21:41:16 [wendy]
"how you do" belongs in techniques
21:42:09 [wendy]
make sure collated transcript appears in benefits
21:45:30 [Yvette]
q+ to say "is a collated transcript the only way?"
21:45:43 [wendy]
doesn't merge sound, transcriptions of sound
21:46:01 [wendy]
ack yvette
21:46:01 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "is a collated transcript the only way?"
21:46:24 [Yvette]
never mind
21:46:26 [wendy]
note that gregg has wording on this. i've not been able to capture it all.
21:46:56 [wendy]
skip wording on benefits for now.
21:47:04 [wendy]
and examples. focus on normative text.
21:47:19 [wendy]
21:47:21 [wendy]
checkpoint 1.2
21:47:26 [wendy]
proposed wording:
21:48:33 [m3mSEA]
Yvette: What are the x'es behind the success criteria?
21:48:53 [m3mSEA]
GVAN: x does not require a certain type of presentation, and y does.
21:49:26 [m3mSEA]
GVAN: If I have a document that has 3 headers that require markup, it doesn't need a presentational change. If we require headers, it changes the presentation.
21:49:31 [wendy]
freedom of expression
21:51:24 [wendy]
proposed wording: 1.2 [CORE] Provide synchronized media equivalents for time-dependent
21:51:24 [wendy]
21:52:24 [wendy]
time-dependent multimedia presentations
21:53:09 [wendy]
put multimedia into SC instead of the guideline?
21:53:16 [wendy]
or make a note: pure audio w/no interaction...
21:53:39 [wendy]
more solar flares?
21:53:53 [Yvette]
Sounds like Sharky :-)
21:54:03 [wendy]
CWAK - pronounced "quack"
21:54:29 [wendy]
proposed: an audio description is provided for on-screen events that are not
21:54:29 [wendy]
identified in the soundtrack and are important to understanding the
21:54:29 [wendy]
21:54:49 [wendy]
on-screen? how about visual?
21:54:50 [wendy]
21:55:15 [wendy]
gaps - in techniques?
21:55:28 [wendy]
critical but no gaps, then it fails the test.
21:55:36 [wendy]
technique says, "in those cases, you..."
21:55:43 [Yvette]
zakim, mute me
21:55:43 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
21:56:12 [wendy]
continual dialog, no audio description.
21:56:36 [wendy]
not true, say at beginning that says, "there is a scene in the movie where I can't interupt therefore I will tell you now..."
21:56:58 [wendy]
before dialog starts you tell them about the scene.
21:57:07 [Zakim]
21:58:28 [Yvette]
q+ to say "Audio descriptions needn't be synced then"
21:58:41 [Yvette]
zakim, unmute me
21:58:41 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
21:58:44 [wendy]
suggest leave it as "audio description is provided" move rest to techniques.
21:58:55 [wendy]
to determine if it is good or not, that is techniques.
22:01:44 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
22:01:44 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Wendy, Kerstin_Goldsmith, Doyle_Burnett, Matt, JasonWhite, John_Slatin, Cynthia_Shelly, Yvette_Hoitink, [IBM], Bengt, Mike_Barta, Gregg, Avi_Arditti,
22:01:47 [Zakim]
... Loretta_Guarino_Reid
22:03:19 [wendy]
+multimedia to glossary
22:05:06 [wendy]
audio description in italics or something?
22:05:19 [wendy]
PBS uses descriptive video
22:06:12 [wendy]
"an audio description of visual events is provided for audio/visual materials/media"
22:06:36 [wendy]
if just visual, doesn't have to be synchronized.
22:06:39 [wendy]
22:07:02 [wendy]
get just as much by reading a description or transcript.
22:07:54 [wendy]
silent movies: all essential info is video.
22:08:15 [Yvette]
zakim, mute me
22:08:15 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
22:08:40 [Zakim]
22:08:53 [wendy]
zakim, ??P22 is David_MacDonald
22:08:53 [Zakim]
+David_MacDonald; got it
22:09:47 [wendy]
1.2 SC 2 Captions are provided for all significant dialogue and sounds.
22:11:22 [wendy]
22:11:22 [wendy]
A text transcript or other non-audio equivalent that is not synchronized
22:11:22 [wendy]
with the multimedia presentation satisfies this success criterion if all
22:11:22 [wendy]
four of the following statements about the content are true:
22:11:22 [wendy]
(a) The content is real-time and
22:11:23 [wendy]
(b) the content is audio-only and
22:11:25 [wendy]
(c) the content is not time-sensitive and
22:11:27 [wendy]
(d) the content is not interactive
22:12:44 [wendy]
other non-audio equivalent?
22:13:29 [Yvette]
q+ to say "Can we get rid of the double negation (DeMorgen rulez)
22:13:36 [wendy]
strike word "multimedia" if b is audio-only
22:14:24 [wendy]
an example: audio recording of john describing a process such as tying a knot, a text equiv is fine if the exact words are used but a diagram or animation of tying the knot could be acceptable.
22:14:36 [Yvette]
zakim, unmute me
22:14:36 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
22:14:44 [wendy]
diff between time-dependent and time-sensitive?
22:15:03 [wendy]
sensitive - what must do right now.
22:15:10 [wendy]
dependent - press the button now
22:15:35 [wendy]
dependent - multimedia, interactive
22:16:06 [wendy]
if things have to be done at a particular time (push a button at time x) - time-dependent
22:16:14 [wendy]
if have to press a button, audio and visual.
22:16:16 [wendy]
not audio only
22:16:29 [wendy]
unless are speaking at a certain time
22:16:42 [wendy]
"if you want X, press or say 'yes'"
22:17:45 [wendy]
think this exception is covered under 1.1
22:19:36 [wendy]
if say captions for multimedia, the exception falls under 1.1
22:20:05 [Yvette]
22:20:32 [wendy]
if could say "audio-visual" and find way to put other time-dependent someplace else (perhaps 2.2?)
22:21:39 [wendy]
thus, not a presentation issue an operation issue.
22:21:51 [wendy]
requests for response and response.
22:22:39 [wendy]
want real-time captions?
22:23:46 [wendy]
need to define time-dependent presentation.
22:24:36 [wendy]
captions are provided for all significant sounds and dialog in time-dependent material
22:24:59 [wendy]
could have multimedia that is not time-dependent
22:25:06 [wendy]
e.g., picture of talking head. transcript is fine.
22:25:23 [wendy]
fine if really short, not fine for extended clip.
22:25:51 [wendy]
facial expression, gesture, lots of info that is needed.
22:27:01 [wendy]
action: gregg need defn that captures that it includes audio and visual information presented at the same time as well as audio or visual with interaction.
22:27:13 [wendy]
could include time-sensitivity
22:27:20 [wendy]
(in combo w/real-time events)
22:27:26 [wendy]
(i.e., time-sensitivity)
22:27:30 [Yvette]
22:28:19 [wendy]
propose delete: descriptions and captions are synchronized with the events they
22:28:19 [wendy]
22:28:23 [wendy]
22:30:36 [wendy]
resolved: delete SC3 level 1 under 1.2
22:30:39 [wendy]
got rid of exceptions
22:31:25 [wendy]
22:31:59 [wendy]
everyone: please look over the examples and benefits to see if any issues.
22:32:25 [wendy]
next week's meeting?
22:35:49 [Zakim]
22:35:50 [Zakim]
22:35:51 [Zakim]
22:35:52 [wendy]
zakim, bye
22:35:52 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #wai-wcag
22:35:55 [wendy]
no meeting next week
22:35:58 [bengt]
22:36:01 [Yvette]
ACTION: yvette find real world examples of language switches in pages
22:36:14 [wendy]
drop action 2
22:36:19 [wendy]
RRSAgent, drop action 2
22:36:24 [wendy]
RRSAgent, bye
22:36:24 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item:
22:36:24 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: gregg need defn that captures that it includes audio and visual information presented at the same time as well as audio or visual with interaction. [1]
22:36:24 [RRSAgent]
recorded in