IRC log of wai-wcag on 2003-11-06
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 20:55:33 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:55:48 [wendy]
- lots of folks sent regrets today.
- 20:55:52 [Yvette]
- Yeah I know
- 20:55:59 [Yvette]
- Bad timing I guess
- 20:56:05 [wendy]
- most of the IRC folks (Tom, Roberto, etc.) so...it will be a little lonely on irc today.
- 20:56:24 [Yvette]
- Bengt will be here I think
- 20:56:40 [Yvette]
- identity crisis?
- 20:56:42 [Yvette]
- ;-)
- 20:56:49 [wendy]
- wendy has changed the topic to: wai-wcag cozy tea time
- 20:56:53 [Yvette]
- :-)
- 20:56:55 [wendy]
- nope, just wrong command.
- 20:57:00 [wendy]
- :)
- 20:57:04 [Yvette]
- tea, that's a plan!
- 20:57:13 [wendy]
- tea hee
- 20:57:30 [wendy]
- i'll brb. gonna get my tea.
- 20:57:41 [wendy]
- zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
- 20:57:41 [Zakim]
- ok, wendy; I see WAI_WCAG()4:00PM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
- 20:57:43 [Yvette]
- I've just made me a tank to get me through the night :-)
- 20:57:52 [wendy]
- tank - giggle.
- 20:57:59 [Yvette]
- about 1/2 a gallon
- 20:58:13 [Yvette]
- or 2+ liters, depending on where you are in the world
- 20:59:21 [Yvette]
- I have been wanting to ask you something, can you stay for a few minutes after the telecon?
- 20:59:27 [Yvette]
- It's about an action item I took
- 21:00:22 [wendy]
- yes, i can stay afterwards.
- 21:00:22 [DoyleB]
- DoyleB has joined #wai-wcag
- 21:00:24 [Yvette]
- welcome back :-)
- 21:00:26 [wendy]
- hello doyle
- 21:00:27 [Yvette]
- ok, talk to you then
- 21:00:28 [DoyleB]
- hi all
- 21:00:43 [Yvette]
- Hi DoyleB
- 21:01:10 [Zakim]
- WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has now started
- 21:01:12 [Zakim]
- +Wendy
- 21:01:24 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 21:01:24 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Wendy
- 21:01:31 [Zakim]
- +??P2
- 21:01:46 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P2 is Kerstin_Goldsmith
- 21:01:46 [Zakim]
- +Kerstin_Goldsmith; got it
- 21:02:23 [Zakim]
- +??P4
- 21:02:34 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P4 is Doyle_Burnett
- 21:02:34 [Zakim]
- +Doyle_Burnett; got it
- 21:03:10 [Zakim]
- +Matt
- 21:03:11 [Zakim]
- +JasonWhite
- 21:03:15 [m3mSEA]
- m3mSEA has joined #wai-wcag
- 21:03:31 [Yvette]
- I'm having trouble getting through
- 21:03:41 [Yvette]
- It doesn't ask for the 9224 code
- 21:03:50 [wendy]
- hmm. yvette, that's odd.
- 21:04:17 [Yvette]
- it works now
- 21:04:17 [Zakim]
- +??P10
- 21:04:19 [Zakim]
- +??P11
- 21:04:26 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P10 may be Yvette
- 21:04:26 [Zakim]
- +Yvette?; got it
- 21:04:37 [Yvette]
- zakim, I am Yvette
- 21:04:37 [Zakim]
- ok, Yvette, I now associate you with Yvette?
- 21:04:43 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P11 may be Cynthia
- 21:04:43 [Zakim]
- +Cynthia?; got it
- 21:04:50 [Zakim]
- -Cynthia?
- 21:04:58 [Zakim]
- +John_Slatin
- 21:04:59 [Yvette]
- zakim, I am Yvette_Hoitink
- 21:04:59 [Zakim]
- sorry, Yvette, I do not see a party named 'Yvette_Hoitink'
- 21:05:06 [Yvette]
- zakim, Yvette is Yvette_Hoitink
- 21:05:06 [Zakim]
- +Yvette_Hoitink; got it
- 21:05:17 [wendy]
- zakim, mute yvette
- 21:05:17 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
- 21:05:19 [bengt]
- bengt has joined #wai-wcag
- 21:05:27 [Yvette]
- ok, I'll reconnect
- 21:05:30 [Zakim]
- +??P12
- 21:05:32 [Zakim]
- -Yvette_Hoitink
- 21:05:40 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P12 is Cynthia_Shelly
- 21:05:40 [Zakim]
- +Cynthia_Shelly; got it
- 21:05:50 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 21:05:50 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Wendy, Kerstin_Goldsmith, Doyle_Burnett, Matt, JasonWhite, John_Slatin, Cynthia_Shelly
- 21:05:54 [Yvette]
- it's not my lucky night
- 21:06:04 [Zakim]
- +??P13
- 21:06:10 [Yvette]
- zakim, I am ??p13
- 21:06:10 [Zakim]
- +Yvette; got it
- 21:06:23 [Yvette]
- zakim, Yvette is Yvette_Hoitink
- 21:06:23 [Zakim]
- +Yvette_Hoitink; got it
- 21:06:32 [Zakim]
- +[IBM]
- 21:06:49 [wendy]
- zakim, who's making noise?
- 21:07:00 [Zakim]
- wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Doyle_Burnett (10%), John_Slatin (4%), Cynthia_Shelly (4%), [IBM] (4%), Wendy (44%), JasonWhite (36%)
- 21:07:08 [Zakim]
- +??P16
- 21:07:15 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P16 is Bengt
- 21:07:15 [Zakim]
- +Bengt; got it
- 21:07:43 [bengt]
- zakim, I am Bengt
- 21:07:43 [Zakim]
- ok, bengt, I now associate you with Bengt
- 21:07:56 [wendy]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20031105.html
- 21:09:37 [Zakim]
- +??P17
- 21:09:48 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P17 is Mike_Barta
- 21:09:48 [Zakim]
- +Mike_Barta; got it
- 21:10:13 [wendy]
- Kudos to Ben for the quick turn-around!
- 21:11:35 [wendy]
- group agrees to publish this to TR.
- 21:11:48 [wendy]
- ===
- 21:12:08 [wendy]
- Testability of the success criteria in WCAG 2.0, with suggestions
- 21:12:08 [wendy]
- for change.
- 21:12:15 [wendy]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2003OctDec/0234.html
- 21:13:46 [Zakim]
- +??P18
- 21:13:56 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P18 is Gregg
- 21:13:56 [Zakim]
- +Gregg; got it
- 21:14:55 [GVAN]
- GVAN has joined #wai-wcag
- 21:17:43 [Yvette]
- What do the [X] mean behind the success criteria?
- 21:20:04 [wendy]
- content must be [perceivable, operable, understandable]
- 21:20:23 [wendy]
- principle of writing principles that way works.
- 21:21:10 [Yvette]
- zakim, mute me
- 21:21:10 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
- 21:21:22 [wendy]
- john's proposal of guideline 1.1 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2003OctDec/0227.html
- 21:22:16 [wendy]
- For non-text content, provide text equivalents that serve the same
- 21:22:16 [wendy]
- purpose or convey the same information as the non-text content, except
- 21:22:16 [wendy]
- when the purpose of the non-text content is to create a specific sensory
- 21:22:17 [wendy]
- experience (for example, music, visual art) in which case a text label
- 21:22:17 [wendy]
- and description are sufficient.
- 21:22:27 [wendy]
- ===
- 21:22:35 [wendy]
- 'sensory experience' - anything that is not?
- 21:22:53 [wendy]
- concern that "text label and description"
- 21:23:11 [wendy]
- maybe places where text label is adequate.
- 21:23:24 [wendy]
- text label and/or description?
- 21:23:59 [wendy]
- label - beethoven example seems fine.
- 21:24:32 [wendy]
- descriptive text label?
- 21:24:42 [wendy]
- descriptive text?
- 21:24:57 [wendy]
- could either be label or description
- 21:25:04 [wendy]
- use 'or' instead of 'and'
- 21:25:22 [wendy]
- a text label or description is sufficient
- 21:25:26 [wendy]
- resolved
- 21:26:32 [wendy]
- SC1 Text equivalents are explicitly associated with non-text content, except
- 21:26:32 [wendy]
- when the non-text content is intended to create a specific sensory
- 21:26:32 [wendy]
- experience (for example, music without words, visual art).
- 21:26:54 [wendy]
- ==
- 21:26:59 [Yvette]
- zakim, unmute me
- 21:26:59 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
- 21:27:02 [wendy]
- 2 bullets underneath
- 21:28:02 [wendy]
- 1st bullet: The text equivalent fulfills the same function as the author intended
- 21:28:02 [wendy]
- for the non-text content (that is, it conveys all of the intended
- 21:28:02 [wendy]
- information and achieves the same function as the non-text content).
- 21:28:21 [wendy]
- --
- 21:28:24 [wendy]
- intended?
- 21:28:28 [wendy]
- is it testable?
- 21:28:46 [wendy]
- who is doing the testing? if by author, yes.
- 21:29:15 [m3mSEA]
- zakim, who's making noise?
- 21:29:26 [Zakim]
- m3mSEA, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Yvette_Hoitink (4%), Gregg (45%)
- 21:29:37 [wendy]
- SC2 non-text content that is designed to create a specific sensory
- 21:29:37 [wendy]
- experience (such as music without words or visual art)
- 21:29:37 [wendy]
- has a text label and a text description.
- 21:29:41 [wendy]
- s/and/or
- 21:29:54 [wendy]
- --
- 21:29:58 [wendy]
- diff between level 1 and level 2?
- 21:30:13 [wendy]
- not diff levels. 2 criteria are similar.
- 21:30:29 [wendy]
- 1st one: about non-text items for which there is a true equivalent. 2nd - not a true text equivalent.
- 21:30:36 [wendy]
- both are level 1
- 21:32:34 [wendy]
- level 2
- 21:32:41 [wendy]
- decrease credibility to have it in there
- 21:32:53 [wendy]
- (collated text transcript)
- 21:33:19 [wendy]
- level 3 is for those who want to go above and beyond.
- 21:35:33 [wendy]
- don't think it would damage credibility.
- 21:36:26 [wendy]
- in AIR contest, had transcript of captions, and audio descriptions, and could have created a collated transcript.
- 21:36:48 [wendy]
- delete first level 2, move second to level 3
- 21:37:40 [wendy]
- "a single text document which merges...into a collated transcript..."
- 21:37:54 [wendy]
- did this to define collated transcript.
- 21:38:30 [wendy]
- "a single text doc is included...dialog and important sounds such as a script or a document which merges"
- 21:38:34 [wendy]
- technique?
- 21:38:57 [wendy]
- + (e.g., a script or document that merges them)
- 21:39:05 [wendy]
- so that people have some idea of what we're talking about.
- 21:39:12 [wendy]
- don't specify only way to create is merging.
- 21:39:45 [wendy]
- a single text doc is provided that includes all important dialog ...
- 21:39:58 [wendy]
- of audio description and captions into a collated transcript.
- 21:40:04 [wendy]
- don't need parantheses
- 21:40:07 [Zakim]
- +Avi_Arditti
- 21:40:11 [wendy]
- will people wonder where it came from?
- 21:41:02 [wendy]
- careful with use of "script"
- 21:41:16 [wendy]
- "how you do" belongs in techniques
- 21:42:09 [wendy]
- make sure collated transcript appears in benefits
- 21:45:30 [Yvette]
- q+ to say "is a collated transcript the only way?"
- 21:45:43 [wendy]
- doesn't merge sound, transcriptions of sound
- 21:46:01 [wendy]
- ack yvette
- 21:46:01 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "is a collated transcript the only way?"
- 21:46:24 [Yvette]
- never mind
- 21:46:26 [wendy]
- note that gregg has wording on this. i've not been able to capture it all.
- 21:46:56 [wendy]
- skip wording on benefits for now.
- 21:47:04 [wendy]
- and examples. focus on normative text.
- 21:47:19 [wendy]
- ===
- 21:47:21 [wendy]
- checkpoint 1.2
- 21:47:26 [wendy]
- proposed wording: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2003OctDec/0230.html
- 21:48:33 [m3mSEA]
- Yvette: What are the x'es behind the success criteria?
- 21:48:53 [m3mSEA]
- GVAN: x does not require a certain type of presentation, and y does.
- 21:49:26 [m3mSEA]
- GVAN: If I have a document that has 3 headers that require markup, it doesn't need a presentational change. If we require headers, it changes the presentation.
- 21:49:31 [wendy]
- freedom of expression
- 21:51:24 [wendy]
- proposed wording: 1.2 [CORE] Provide synchronized media equivalents for time-dependent
- 21:51:24 [wendy]
- presentations.
- 21:52:24 [wendy]
- time-dependent multimedia presentations
- 21:53:09 [wendy]
- put multimedia into SC instead of the guideline?
- 21:53:16 [wendy]
- or make a note: pure audio w/no interaction...
- 21:53:39 [wendy]
- more solar flares?
- 21:53:53 [Yvette]
- Sounds like Sharky :-)
- 21:54:03 [wendy]
- CWAK - pronounced "quack"
- 21:54:29 [wendy]
- proposed: an audio description is provided for on-screen events that are not
- 21:54:29 [wendy]
- identified in the soundtrack and are important to understanding the
- 21:54:29 [wendy]
- presentation.
- 21:54:49 [wendy]
- on-screen? how about visual?
- 21:54:50 [wendy]
- ok
- 21:55:15 [wendy]
- gaps - in techniques?
- 21:55:28 [wendy]
- critical but no gaps, then it fails the test.
- 21:55:36 [wendy]
- technique says, "in those cases, you..."
- 21:55:43 [Yvette]
- zakim, mute me
- 21:55:43 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
- 21:56:12 [wendy]
- continual dialog, no audio description.
- 21:56:36 [wendy]
- not true, say at beginning that says, "there is a scene in the movie where I can't interupt therefore I will tell you now..."
- 21:56:58 [wendy]
- before dialog starts you tell them about the scene.
- 21:57:07 [Zakim]
- +Loretta_Guarino_Reid
- 21:58:28 [Yvette]
- q+ to say "Audio descriptions needn't be synced then"
- 21:58:41 [Yvette]
- zakim, unmute me
- 21:58:41 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
- 21:58:44 [wendy]
- suggest leave it as "audio description is provided" move rest to techniques.
- 21:58:55 [wendy]
- to determine if it is good or not, that is techniques.
- 22:01:44 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 22:01:44 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Wendy, Kerstin_Goldsmith, Doyle_Burnett, Matt, JasonWhite, John_Slatin, Cynthia_Shelly, Yvette_Hoitink, [IBM], Bengt, Mike_Barta, Gregg, Avi_Arditti,
- 22:01:47 [Zakim]
- ... Loretta_Guarino_Reid
- 22:03:19 [wendy]
- +multimedia to glossary
- 22:05:06 [wendy]
- audio description in italics or something?
- 22:05:19 [wendy]
- PBS uses descriptive video
- 22:06:12 [wendy]
- "an audio description of visual events is provided for audio/visual materials/media"
- 22:06:36 [wendy]
- if just visual, doesn't have to be synchronized.
- 22:06:39 [wendy]
- why?
- 22:07:02 [wendy]
- get just as much by reading a description or transcript.
- 22:07:54 [wendy]
- silent movies: all essential info is video.
- 22:08:15 [Yvette]
- zakim, mute me
- 22:08:15 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
- 22:08:40 [Zakim]
- +??P22
- 22:08:53 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P22 is David_MacDonald
- 22:08:53 [Zakim]
- +David_MacDonald; got it
- 22:09:47 [wendy]
- 1.2 SC 2 Captions are provided for all significant dialogue and sounds.
- 22:11:22 [wendy]
- exception:
- 22:11:22 [wendy]
- A text transcript or other non-audio equivalent that is not synchronized
- 22:11:22 [wendy]
- with the multimedia presentation satisfies this success criterion if all
- 22:11:22 [wendy]
- four of the following statements about the content are true:
- 22:11:22 [wendy]
- (a) The content is real-time and
- 22:11:23 [wendy]
- (b) the content is audio-only and
- 22:11:25 [wendy]
- (c) the content is not time-sensitive and
- 22:11:27 [wendy]
- (d) the content is not interactive
- 22:12:44 [wendy]
- other non-audio equivalent?
- 22:13:29 [Yvette]
- q+ to say "Can we get rid of the double negation (DeMorgen rulez)
- 22:13:36 [wendy]
- strike word "multimedia" if b is audio-only
- 22:14:24 [wendy]
- an example: audio recording of john describing a process such as tying a knot, a text equiv is fine if the exact words are used but a diagram or animation of tying the knot could be acceptable.
- 22:14:36 [Yvette]
- zakim, unmute me
- 22:14:36 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
- 22:14:44 [wendy]
- diff between time-dependent and time-sensitive?
- 22:15:03 [wendy]
- sensitive - what must do right now.
- 22:15:10 [wendy]
- dependent - press the button now
- 22:15:35 [wendy]
- dependent - multimedia, interactive
- 22:16:06 [wendy]
- if things have to be done at a particular time (push a button at time x) - time-dependent
- 22:16:14 [wendy]
- if have to press a button, audio and visual.
- 22:16:16 [wendy]
- not audio only
- 22:16:29 [wendy]
- unless are speaking at a certain time
- 22:16:42 [wendy]
- "if you want X, press or say 'yes'"
- 22:17:45 [wendy]
- think this exception is covered under 1.1
- 22:19:36 [wendy]
- if say captions for multimedia, the exception falls under 1.1
- 22:20:05 [Yvette]
- q?
- 22:20:32 [wendy]
- if could say "audio-visual" and find way to put other time-dependent someplace else (perhaps 2.2?)
- 22:21:39 [wendy]
- thus, not a presentation issue an operation issue.
- 22:21:51 [wendy]
- requests for response and response.
- 22:22:39 [wendy]
- want real-time captions?
- 22:23:46 [wendy]
- need to define time-dependent presentation.
- 22:24:36 [wendy]
- captions are provided for all significant sounds and dialog in time-dependent material
- 22:24:59 [wendy]
- could have multimedia that is not time-dependent
- 22:25:06 [wendy]
- e.g., picture of talking head. transcript is fine.
- 22:25:23 [wendy]
- fine if really short, not fine for extended clip.
- 22:25:51 [wendy]
- facial expression, gesture, lots of info that is needed.
- 22:27:01 [wendy]
- action: gregg need defn that captures that it includes audio and visual information presented at the same time as well as audio or visual with interaction.
- 22:27:13 [wendy]
- could include time-sensitivity
- 22:27:20 [wendy]
- (in combo w/real-time events)
- 22:27:26 [wendy]
- (i.e., time-sensitivity)
- 22:27:30 [Yvette]
- q-
- 22:28:19 [wendy]
- propose delete: descriptions and captions are synchronized with the events they
- 22:28:19 [wendy]
- represent.
- 22:28:23 [wendy]
- (SC3)
- 22:30:36 [wendy]
- resolved: delete SC3 level 1 under 1.2
- 22:30:39 [wendy]
- got rid of exceptions
- 22:31:25 [wendy]
- ===
- 22:31:59 [wendy]
- everyone: please look over the examples and benefits to see if any issues.
- 22:32:25 [wendy]
- next week's meeting?
- 22:35:49 [Zakim]
- -Avi_Arditti
- 22:35:50 [Zakim]
- -Loretta_Guarino_Reid
- 22:35:51 [Zakim]
- -Matt
- 22:35:52 [wendy]
- zakim, bye
- 22:35:52 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #wai-wcag
- 22:35:55 [wendy]
- no meeting next week
- 22:35:58 [bengt]
- bye
- 22:36:01 [Yvette]
- ACTION: yvette find real world examples of language switches in pages
- 22:36:14 [wendy]
- drop action 2
- 22:36:19 [wendy]
- RRSAgent, drop action 2
- 22:36:24 [wendy]
- RRSAgent, bye
- 22:36:24 [RRSAgent]
- I see 1 open action item:
- 22:36:24 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: gregg need defn that captures that it includes audio and visual information presented at the same time as well as audio or visual with interaction. [1]
- 22:36:24 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/11/06-wai-wcag-irc#T22-27-01