IRC log of wai-wcag on 2003-08-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:16:04 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
14:17:15 [rscano]
sobig strikes back :)
14:17:57 [rscano]
tell w3c mail admin to put a filter that kill the messages with .pif attachments greather than 10 Kb...
14:19:24 [wendy]
smiley face is not a unicode character, it is a wingding.
14:19:38 [wendy]
up to 32 are control codes.
14:21:54 [ChrisR]
ASCII link:
14:22:04 [wendy]
ben found blogging tool (B2) that has pattern recognition. if use emoticon it converts into icon. you can add your own alt-text. default are the ascii characters.
14:24:23 [bcaldwell] B2 - PHP and MySQL tool that automatically converts emoticons (site is down at the moment due to a patent protest)
14:27:15 [wendy]
14:27:15 [wendy]
14:27:51 [wendy]
frame titles: this technique is use title attribute of frame. section 508 says can do that, but to use the title element in the frame document.
14:28:23 [wendy]
have to load the other doc before get the title.
14:28:37 [wendy]
if a title attribute, jaws will read as cycle among frames.
14:29:06 [wendy]
if title in doc, will read that next. thus, only need one or the other?
14:29:43 [wendy]
what about other asst. techs?
14:30:24 [wendy]
to pass 508, could use first H1.
14:31:02 [wendy]
look at user agent support issues and come back to?
14:31:32 [wendy]
use title on frame and frameset? or just frame?
14:33:10 [wendy]
title on frameset like summary on layout table. since thinking has shifted away from summaries on layout tables, likely shift away from title on frameset as well.
14:33:27 [wendy]
14:33:30 [wendy]
longdesc for frames
14:33:49 [wendy]
14:33:56 [wendy]
anyone seen it used? (longdesc on frame)
14:35:47 [wendy]
(looking for longdesc on frames, found:
14:35:57 [wendy]
like the "flicker" checkpoint: "disco?"
14:36:21 [wendy]
an optional technique?
14:37:05 [wendy]
user agent support for longdesc?
14:44:20 [wendy]
14:44:21 [wendy]
14:44:33 [wendy]
another markup language (smil or svg) should be acceptable.
14:46:46 [wendy]
what about two frames, one has list of links that cause image to show in another frame. if the links are descriptive enough (alt-text like), then the info is there.
14:47:21 [wendy]
will people start using svg, smil, and other things in frame? frame seems to be not used as much anymore.
14:49:00 [wendy]
use an accessible frame source (markup) or use good links. 2 techniques?
14:50:11 [wendy]
2 - one that would basically link to other techniques documents. the other an example of good links and frames.
14:50:34 [wendy]
but, don't spend too much time on since frames don't seem to be as widely used.
14:51:09 [wendy]
action: wac draft proposal for frame source techniques (1 for accessible frame markup, 1 for good links ala alt-text)
14:51:26 [wendy]
14:51:26 [wendy]
14:51:52 [wendy]
examples about pop-up windows, but frame targets is a different usage.
14:52:17 [wendy]
images example just discussed is an example of.
14:52:51 [wendy]
some people like frames, b/c divides navigation into a separate "window" that can easily be navigated over.
14:53:37 [wendy]
frame targets: does focus follow?
14:54:42 [wendy]
action: michael test if focus follows changes in frame target
14:55:42 [wendy]
targeting diff frame in frameset or new window. are the issues the same? or differences that we want to cover.
14:56:15 [wendy]
test: HPR does begin reading in correct place when a diff frame in frameset is targeted.
14:56:33 [wendy]
(ben just did the test - found that it does begin reading in the correct spot)
14:57:00 [wendy]
did you know that it changed? did you want it to change?
14:57:56 [wendy]
UA has to inform you that you are in a frameset. HPR said, in a new page and began reading it. but didn't know if loaded into current frame or a diff frame. to go back to navigate, hit back or tab to nav frame?
14:59:41 [wendy]
checklist item: how is it acceptable to inform the user? (refer to discussion about link targets) is the issue the same as w/link targets?
14:59:51 [wendy]
a link technique rather than frame technique
15:00:18 [wendy]
become legacy techniques, since depends on user agent.
15:00:27 [wendy]
jaws will tell you when open a new window.
15:00:40 [wendy]
it says "you've gone to frame 3 of 3" you can easily navigate between frames.
15:00:49 [wendy]
should also be true of window eyes.
15:00:56 [wendy]
(need to verify)
15:01:29 [wendy]
thus, deprecate this technique.
15:01:30 [wendy]
15:01:40 [wendy]
15:02:37 [wendy]
15:02:48 [rscano]
15:03:03 [wendy]
agreed: remove this b/c too forward looking and ideas not supported.
15:03:28 [wendy]
in place of: server-side template systems or xslt to achieve the same kind of thing.
15:03:58 [wendy]
if frames good to encapsulate navigation, that no longer the case.
15:04:21 [wendy]
put a note in intro - may want to consider other approaches to frames.
15:04:33 [wendy]
other techniques elsewhere could link to resources.
15:04:45 [wendy]
15:05:24 [wendy]
15:05:42 [wendy]
the noframes content should include accessible html and should not include "your browser does not support frames"
15:05:50 [wendy]
use valid content of noframes
15:06:02 [wendy]
it should not be empty.
15:06:19 [wendy]
which tools don't support frames?
15:06:27 [wendy]
many pda browsers don't.
15:06:52 [wendy]
do any magnification technologies get rid of frames/
15:06:53 [wendy]
15:07:24 [wendy]
thus, an accessibility issue?
15:07:33 [wendy]
what does emacspeak do?
15:08:23 [wendy]
similar to old lynx: a link to each frame as well as noframes
15:09:50 [wendy]
opera for small screens. doesn't seem to support noframes.
15:10:02 [wendy]
2 options: remove the technique or mark as deprecated/legacy.
15:10:07 [wendy]
or to keep
15:10:47 [wendy]
one opinion: if use frames, should use noframes.
15:11:19 [wendy]
(reiteration of opinion) popularity of frames seems to be waning, thus if choose to use frames use noframes.
15:15:02 [wendy]
we've only tested english technologies, what about support in other languages?
15:15:54 [wendy]
if use noframes, can be so much more useful than links to frames.
15:19:55 [bcaldwell]
q- Dave_MacDonald
15:20:19 [wendy]
leave undeprecated for now. add a description.
15:21:09 [wendy]
15:21:10 [wendy]
15:21:17 [wendy]
already discussed tabindex and accesskey
15:21:33 [wendy]
august 13 meeting
15:21:48 [wendy]
tabindex: future technique. need to log UA issues.
15:22:09 [wendy]
accesskey: future. log UA issues.
15:22:09 [wendy]
Ben has action items to test
15:22:39 [wendy]
defer discussion until ben has tested.
15:24:35 [wendy]
15:24:37 [wendy]
15:25:47 [wendy]
support for fieldset and legend?
15:26:16 [wendy]
IE, Opera, Moz, Jaws
15:26:34 [wendy]
IE and Moz - visual rendering.
15:26:58 [wendy]
jaws - read label once for group or once for each control in the group?
15:27:09 [wendy]
need to test.
15:29:56 [wendy]
would like to collect or link to all of the test files that people ar eusing to test.
15:30:04 [wendy]
link to from "resources" with each technique.
15:30:36 [wendy]
or link to it from the example
15:31:18 [wendy]
if test file is a local file, send it and we will publish. if on the web, send the uri.
15:35:12 [wendy]
15:35:13 [wendy]
15:36:39 [wendy]
sometimes ok to have long list (w/out groups) if that's what people are used to. e.g., selecting a state from a list of the 50 u.s. states.
15:37:09 [wendy]
aert discussed 7 +- 2
15:38:20 [wendy]
15:38:24 [wendy]
15:39:18 [wendy]
5 min break
15:39:19 [Zakim]
15:39:29 [Zakim]
15:47:46 [Zakim]
15:49:41 [rscano]
i stay only in irc now... poor signal
15:52:24 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:52:24 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Ben, Chris_Ridpath, Wendy, Dave_MacDonald
15:53:57 [rscano]
i stay in irc
16:01:21 [wendy]
in text: explicit label. what that means.
16:01:49 [wendy]
2 techniques. achieve same thing. how does the author decide which to choose?
16:02:10 [wendy]
choose title b/c easier.
16:02:54 [wendy]
sometimes can't provide label element.
16:03:00 [wendy]
title only way to do.
16:03:37 [wendy]
example: tabular layout. check those that you want to order. label by column header.
16:03:55 [wendy]
(having a hard time imagining that example)
16:06:45 [wendy]
16:06:45 [wendy]
16:07:14 [wendy]
drop it. handled in images section.
16:07:46 [wendy]
make sure no info presented here that is not also presented above. if new info here, incorporate above somehow.
16:08:43 [wendy]
attach keywords to techniques? i.e. elements. search by "form" and find these techniques as well.
16:09:31 [wendy]
16:09:33 [wendy]
16:09:45 [wendy]
agreed to drop this one.
16:10:26 [wendy]
transition from 1.0 to 2.0? those who have done this should undo it?
16:11:56 [wendy]
mark as deprecated and describe some of the issues it is causing.
16:12:25 [wendy]
deprecated vs legacy. this is an example of deprecated.
16:12:56 [wendy]
action: ben propose text for "place-holding characters in empty controls" technique
16:13:29 [wendy]
16:13:31 [wendy]
16:13:41 [wendy]
(for previous: need the WCAG 1.0 errata proposal from michael)
16:14:05 [wendy]
reword: use the alt attribute... provide a description
16:14:10 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
16:14:10 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Ben, Chris_Ridpath, Wendy, Dave_MacDonald (muted)
16:14:36 [wendy]
michael will make the edits throughout the doc
16:15:06 [wendy]
16:22:13 [wendy]
next week gateway techniques:
16:22:19 [wendy]
16:22:38 [wendy]
16:22:40 [wendy]
1. editorial notes
16:22:57 [wendy]
2. checkpoints that don't have any techniques - what should go there?
16:23:14 [wendy]
3. how to link to other techniques documents
16:25:48 [wendy]
next week 2 hour call.
16:27:59 [Zakim]
16:28:00 [Zakim]
16:28:01 [Zakim]
16:28:02 [Zakim]
16:28:04 [Zakim]
16:28:05 [rellero]
16:28:05 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended
16:28:06 [wendy]
zakim, bye
16:28:06 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #wai-wcag
16:28:10 [wendy]
RRSAgent, bye
16:28:10 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items:
16:28:10 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: wac draft proposal for frame source techniques (1 for accessible frame markup, 1 for good links ala alt-text) [1]
16:28:10 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:28:10 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: michael test if focus follows changes in frame target [2]
16:28:10 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:28:10 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ben propose text for "place-holding characters in empty controls" technique [3]
16:28:10 [RRSAgent]
recorded in