See also: IRC log
Present:
Regrets:
Chair: MikeC
Scribe: Gerald Edgar
Scribe: Minutes for November 20 [1] and September 18 [2] were
approved.
[1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ws-arch/2003Dec/att-0002/arch-03-11-20-public.html
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ws-arch/2003Dec/att-0000/arch-03-09-18.htm
MikeC :follow up
from last telecon. the idea was to get comments on the MOM (message oriented
model) anyone with comment on this can raise it now or get e-mail
responses. Dealing with it now means we can complete this. No comments. Have
there been changes since the last telecon?
Frank: There are few changes- it has not been discussed yet.
Mike C: Review the MOM draft and make whatever comments you are going
to make, so that we can make changes. and complete it.
Hugo: Concerning the message header - a message header may
contain orchestration information. This is the only reference to
orchestration, one can wonder what is orchestration information, and we do
not provide that information. (from 24 October draft, it is not in this one)
the latest URL is in the
Frank: the latest version is available at the web site.
Mike C: There are comments and it is up to the person to make sure
they have the latest version to comment on. People print copies and
mark them. The person making the comments has to make sure the comment
applies to the latest version, in case it has been changes. Intermediaries as
being between the message model and service model.
Ugo: things have been changed here, feedback was received from
Mark Baker, and that was incorporated.
Frank: the view of intermediaries is infrastructure oriented.
the view of intermediaries in WSA is not consistent with the view within
SOAP. the transportation of messages is not the same as processing
messages. Within message processing, processors can offload tasks to
intermediaries. [you can] link intermediates with message processing.
Rodger: a commercial hub forwarding messages to others.
Ugo: There is a reason to emphasize soap intermediaries. it uses
examples of gateways. [We are] focusing on SOAP since that has more
applications.
??: intermediaries are a way to get to the back-end. Soap-aware
intermediaries, with a processing model "must understand" tag workflow or
message exchange pattern the intermediate is a service in itself as part of
another workflow.
Frank: when discussed on the editors call - the definition of an
intermediary - an agent that processes a message. The message it emits
is the same massage, even if modified. One can see intermediaries as a
poor mans orchestration.
Rodger: How is this the same message?
MikeC: using the example of
encryption. The messages bits are completely different (that is -
encrypted) but the message is the same.
Ugo: use of a gateway as an endpoint, and the start of a second
message. The message that comes out is the same - the essential
message.
Frank: the soap intermediary is richer - you can change anything. There
are two kinds of changes - one changes only the header, the other changes
anything.
Ugo: I do not agree - no one agrees that you can change the SOAP
body.
MikeC: in the WS-P working group intermediary was put in for
encryption.
Rodger: it is up the application to decide if the message is the
same.
MikeC: Frank - do you have specific objections? Intermediaries [can be
seen] as an amorphis blob.
Frank: this is one of the aspects effecting the MOM. This
effected the service model. we should revisit this later. About the message
being the same - even in the case of a packet in a LAN - is there a guarantee
that the messages delivered are the messages sent. [discussion about routers
and other infrastructure components] [WS] messages can be seen in the
same way.
Rodger: It is still confusing there is not an absolute reality on
this,
Frank: it is a specialized service. it has an extra property -
the messages emited are the same as the messages received.
MikeC: Intermediaries. are an amorphous concept. a service
intermediary.
Rodger: a service intermediary - rather than something like a
router.
Abbie: we need to discuss this further
MikeC: we need to discuss this on the mailing list.
MikeC: Frank
- can you lead the service oriented model?
Frank: The main thing in the Service Oriented Model to account
for processing and intermediaries. for message oriented intermediaries,
headers, bodies and structure of models. For service oriented model, a
message is not processed in one swallow, but in parts, The soap concept is a
processing model, associated with the requests and delivering the
model. It is not part of the service oriented model to do this requires
a more sophisticated idea of service.
The idea of a service role: a service role is that part of a service, it
takes a specific role in an overall services . The model now needs a bit of
tidying up. However, there are implications which to have a choice - to adopt
intermediaries as simplified choreography or composition. When you
separate roles you have to address the aggregate. The current model does not
address that a service can be composed of other services. The other
thing about the service model is the policy. The relation between policy and
a provider. The provider accepts the policy the service realizes or satisfies
the policy if it abides by it. then we can relate what How was talking about
policy and management. Chorography needs to fit in but we have not thought a
lot about it yet..
MikeC: we need to cover aggregation or
composition - services can be composed and decomposed of services.
Frank: is an intermediary - at the service level>
MikeC: how do services relate to message?. services invoked by
messages, where do we explain this.
Frank> an entity requests the service
MikeC: the link
between message model and the service model
Katia: message and semantics issues
Frank: you could have the same service
available in several ways.
MikeC: the basic idea of SOA is that you
focus on messages not on services. What is going on with messages. you
have to address entities at both ends. SOA - the fanatical view, you do not
care what happens at either end Descriptions, semantics and syntax. We are
less certain on actions and goals. Actions - semantic level actions.
Ho: Some comments on the model - we need
to emphasize what we do with the service model. We need to put constraints on
interfaces.
Frank: that is a WSD constraint. The interface is whatever you need to
do to invoke that service. [there are] references
in the interface. Discussion on RPC and Web Services. RPC vs. document
oriented processing. SOA as document oriented processing
Ho: to distinguish between RPC and SOA, the interfaces. This
constraint ...
Frank: you can do anything in anything. you can not possible to
constrain this [interfaces]. The other thing is the document-oriented view.
Trying to find a clear and easy way to distinguish between document oriented
and message oriented processing.
Ho: you can do anything,
Frank: the issue is do we want to express constraints in the
architecture to make policy choices?
Katia: we cannot give enough guidelines.
How to determine if it is compliant with the WSA? It is difficult. We are
putting out a view.
Frank: we would have to be very specific.
Katia: the different parties do agree on the semantics and
meanings.
Frank: in a pure sense an SOA is sufficiently different from other
architectures. That you can not do RPC. the consequence of that is we are
exploring what is a SOA.
Katia: [asking] what is message based
processing, what is document based processing.
Rodger: 80% or more of web services in place today are RPC
Frank: Microsoft and others are promoting document views. I have
difficulty with reconciling strict message oriented architecture and a
document centric architecture.
Ho: the goal is perhaps too abstract.
State is worse. Choreography is one approach about combination of services.
MikeC to summarize - we do not want to focus only on choreography, but
on composition, on roles, or be composed with other services. we have touched
on the relationship between the interface and the description and
intermediaries the message and document view, procedural, or document
MikeC: are there
changes you are doing Frank?
Frank: there is a new diagram
MikeC to clarify intermediaries. can we resolve this?
Rodger We need to discuss the boundary
ideas.
MikeC: We need to review Ugo's section 3, as well as the
service-oriented model.
[Thanks to David Booth!]
This is a consolidated list of action items currently pending:
[PENDING] ACTION: Abbie writing text on security threats and resolution for document. Due next Wed.
[PENDING] ACTION: Bijan to check if someone from U.Maryland has the resources to help WSA with OWL related work
[DONE] ACTION: Chair to schedule F2F Mon-Thu noon. Host confirms OK.
[PENDING] ACTION: Chair will schedule time to follow up on the question of whether we should do more run-time / processing model work
[DONE] ACTION: David and Roger to clarify step 3 of section "1.5.6 The Process of Engaging a Web Service" [DONE] ACTION: David will find new home for 3.4.3 Trust and Discovery & point to it from Discovery
[PENDING] ACTION: dbooth and zulah to compose a message to the WSD WG asking if two WSDL documents can reference the same service and therefore provide different views (or projections) of that same service
[PENDING] ACTION: dbooth to clarify term "service provider" and "service requestor" and expand glossary
[PENDING] ACTION: dbooth to look at security notes put on public list by Roger
[DONE] ACTION: DBooth to provide MikeC a list of WG members in good/bad standing
[PENDING] ACTION: DBooth to reference the list of standards from 3.15 WS technologies in the stakeholders section
[PENDING] ACTION: fgm to check collation order of concepts
[PENDING] ACTION: Frank to add discussion on policies to service model
[PENDING] ACTION: Frank to discuss Features vs Concepts with Massimo and Katia
[PENDING] ACTION: Frank to move the last two paragraphs of "1.6.3 SOA and REST architectures" to the Semantics stakeholder section
[PENDING] ACTION: Frank to move these next two paragraphs to the Semantics stakeholder section
[PENDING] ACTION: Frank to propose text around architectural approach to semantics (intermediary visibility issue)
[PENDING] ACTION: Frank to re-draft Concepts and decide on Features VS Concepts
[PENDING] ACTION: Frank to resolve policy for the service model Security -> Actuall this means "add discussion"
[PENDING] ACTION: Frank will discuss with others how to refactor SOM to incorporate intermediaries properly
[PENDING] ACTION: Hao to incorporate Roger's proposed definition for Message
[PENDING] ACTION: Hao to send a use case example to the list and ask for good use cases
[PENDING] ACTION: Hao to work with Hugo on getting Hao's CVS access set up
[PENDING] ACTION: Hugo to provide boiler-plate message verbiage about WG members who have been absent and will be removed from the WG membership list unless they take action
[DONE] ACTION: Hugo to review Massimo's OWL and resolve issues in the document that Massimo points out
[PENDING] ACTION: Hugo to talk to Daniel about Requirements document
[DONE] ACTION: Hugo will look into mechanics of inviting experts
[PENDING] ACTION: Katia to review latest Discovery text
[PENDING] ACTION: mchampion to follow up with eric what does he mean by "standard notation for Web Services contract" [DONE] ACTION: Mike C will contact Zulah to see if she wants to be an invited expert
[PENDING] ACTION: Mike to add and wordsmith text in 3.11 choreography
[PENDING] ACTION: MikeC to incorporate all the Action items we didn't talk about into the minutes.
[DROPPED] ACTION: Mike to initiate a discussion about section 1.5.5 The Role of Humans to resolve the difference of opinions [PENDING] ACTION: Mike to propose changes to WS Reliability section in stakeholders perspective
[PENDING] ACTION: MikeC to see that MTF notes get done.
[PENDING] ACTION: MikeC to add and wordsmith text in 3.11 choreography
[PENDING] ACTION: MikeC to check archives to find text we think we agreed to for message reliability & add it to the document [PENDING] ACTION: MikeC to check archives to find text we think we agreed to for message reliability and add to document [PENDING] ACTION: MikeC to look through section 1.7 Web Service Techologies ( http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/ws/arch/wsa/wd-wsa-arch-review2.html#id2617682 ) for wording that was used in absence of a decision to use SOAP/WSDL
[PENDING] ACTION: MikeC to propose changes to WS Reliability section in stakeholders perspective
[PENDING] ACTION: MikeC to propose text to replace these next three paragraphs (and the diagram), to explain the difference between an SOA and a distributed system.
[PENDING] ACTION: MikeC to schedule discussion of Roger's proposed stakeholder's perspective for EDI users [PENDING] ACTION: MikeM to look at security notes put on public list by Roger
[PENDING] ACTION: PaulD to propose text on federation of registries
[PENDING] ACTION: (Who???) Refine correlation definition and verbiage to make it more clear how it relates to other concepts. [recorded in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ws-arch/2003Dec/att-0002/arch-03-11-20-public.html#item03 ]
[PENDING] ACTION: Roger to go through & ensure he's OK with the latest list of standards
[PENDING] ACTION: Roger to send feedback on overall reliability
[PENDING] ACTION: Ugo will draft statkeholders view of intermediaries
[PENDING] ACTION: Yin-Leng to propose a new WS manageability section in stakeholders section (due by beginning of December)
[PENDING] ACTION: Yin-Leng to Update section 2 discussion of management to be in synch with section 3
[PENDING] ACTION: Zulah to look through this section for wording that was used in absence of a decision to use SOAP/WSDL