IRC log of webont on 2002-04-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:30:11 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #webont
15:34:58 [RRSAgent]
15:36:46 [DanCon]
DanCon has changed the topic to: W3C WebOnt WG , 18Apr telcon
15:37:50 [DanCon]
agenda + 18 Apr
15:54:29 [nmg]
nmg has joined #webont
15:54:35 [nmg]
hi dan
15:55:01 [DanCon]
15:56:43 [libby]
libby has joined #webont
15:58:04 [libby]
libby has joined #webont
15:59:03 [Zakim]
SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has now started
15:59:11 [Zakim]
15:59:18 [Zakim]
15:59:25 [Zakim]
+ +1.703.681.aaaa
15:59:48 [Zakim]
15:59:49 [Zakim]
16:00:04 [DanCon]
Zakim, +1.703.681.aaaa is JohnStanton
16:00:06 [Zakim]
+JohnStanton; got it
16:00:07 [Zakim]
16:00:21 [DanCon]
Zakim, ??P54 is LarryE
16:00:22 [Zakim]
+LarryE; got it
16:01:07 [jhendler]
jhendler has joined #webont
16:01:16 [Zakim]
+ +
16:01:31 [DanCon]
Zakim, + is temporarily PeterPS
16:01:32 [Zakim]
+PeterPS; got it
16:01:32 [Zakim]
16:02:14 [DanCon]
Zakim, Goto is JonathanDale
16:02:15 [Zakim]
+JonathanDale; got it
16:02:15 [Zakim]
16:02:15 [Zakim]
16:02:56 [libby]
I just joined
16:03:02 [Zakim]
16:03:04 [libby]
not sure phone working properly
16:03:05 [DanCon]
Zakim, ??P64 is LibbyM
16:03:06 [Zakim]
+LibbyM; got it
16:03:17 [DanCon]
Zakim, ??P66 is JosD
16:03:18 [Zakim]
+JosD; got it
16:03:22 [DanCon]
Zakim, who's here?
16:03:23 [Zakim]
I see Evan.Wallace, JonathanDale, JohnStanton, DanC, NickG, LarryE, PeterPS, M.Smith, LibbyM, JHendler, JosD
16:03:38 [Zakim]
16:03:52 [Zakim]
16:04:33 [Zakim]
16:04:51 [Zakim]
16:05:05 [DanCon]
Zakim, ??P15 is HermanTH
16:05:06 [Zakim]
+HermanTH; got it
16:05:07 [jhendler]
regrets from Deb, Frank, Dieter
16:05:24 [Zakim]
16:05:52 [DanCon]
Zakim, JeremyC just joined
16:05:53 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'JeremyC just joined', DanCon. Try /msg Zakim help
16:06:00 [DanCon]
Zakim, ??P6 is JeremyC
16:06:01 [Zakim]
+JeremyC; got it
16:06:34 [libby]
I can't hear well...are you asking me to scribe?
16:06:38 [DanCon]
16:06:43 [libby]
maybe I bettter try and dial back in
16:06:52 [libby]
also I have to leave @ 6
16:06:57 [Zakim]
16:07:05 [JosD]
JosD has joined #webont
16:07:28 [DanCon]
16:08:03 [Zakim]
16:08:11 [DanCon]
====== Action review
16:08:15 [DanCon]
ACTION (Mar 28) DanC, Lynn Stein (prov.), Jos De Roo, to participate
16:08:16 [DanCon]
in RDF core discussions on construct for closed lists
16:08:23 [JosD]
* JosD waves manually...
16:08:48 [DanCon]
CONTINUES, with apologies from DanC
16:08:59 [libby]
yes I'm back, and vcan hear but not speak
16:09:06 [libby]
for some reason.
16:09:10 [DanCon]
Zakim, ??P5 is LibbyM
16:09:11 [Zakim]
+LibbyM; got it
16:09:14 [Zakim]
16:09:32 [DanCon]
Zakim, ??P17 is MarwanS
16:09:34 [Zakim]
+MarwanS; got it
16:09:53 [DanCon]
DONE: PeterPS + FrankVH + JeremyC write down a paragraph for RDFCore w.r.t. these issues [1) LIST 2) DARK TRIPLES]
16:10:01 [jhendler]
regrets pfps
16:10:07 [DanCon]
er... he's here.
16:10:36 [DanCon]
DONE/WITHDRAWN (Apr 9) issue drive process -- ACTION chairs + MikeS
16:10:53 [DanCon]
ACTION (April 9): chairs
16:10:53 [DanCon]
> Send message to SWCG to the effect that, to achieve aims in charter,
16:10:53 [DanCon]
> need a dark (unasserted) triple mechanism in RDF.
16:10:53 [DanCon]
16:10:53 [DanCon]
16:11:35 [DanCon]
JimH: the decision about 'dark triples' at the ftf seems to be in doubt in the email discussion...
16:12:07 [DanCon]
... SEM has work to do here, but other groups TEST/LANG/GUIDE shouldn't be blocked by this.
16:13:06 [DanCon]
ACTION (April 9): Frank van Harmelen (with Mike Dean, Enrico Motta, Ziv Hellman, Raphael Volz, Ian Horrocks)
16:13:14 [DanCon]
> Following polls on separation of language features between
16:13:14 [DanCon]
> level 1 (OWL-lite) and level 2 (OWL-full), a group was constituted to
16:13:14 [DanCon]
> revisit the level 1/2 conformance issue:
16:13:14 [DanCon]
16:13:16 [DanCon]
16:13:52 [DanCon]
===== 2. level 1/level 2 issue
16:14:09 [DanCon]
oops: agenda request: approve ftf meeting record.
16:14:37 [DanCon]
perhaps JimH and DanC can discuss that [ftf record] after closing the meeting.
16:15:06 [DanCon]
# LANG: compliance levels Frank van Harmelen (Thu, Apr 18 2002)
16:15:54 [Zakim]
+ +1.850.202.aacc - is perhaps PatH?
16:16:24 [DanCon]
[roll call:
16:16:26 [DanCon]
Zakim, who's here?
16:16:27 [Zakim]
I see Evan.Wallace, JonathanDale, JohnStanton, DanC, NickG, LarryE, PeterPS, M.Smith, Leo, JHendler, JosD, ChrisW, ZivH, HermanTH, JeremyC (muted), LibbyM, MarwanS, PatH?
16:16:29 [DanCon]
16:18:00 [DanCon]
JimH: I've asked Frank vH to estimate when a new proposal should be available
16:21:11 [DanCon]
?: I'm a little confused by references to 'framey stuff'; I thought that had become a presentation syntax.
16:21:34 [libby]
sorry that might have been me. dunno what's happened to my phone
16:21:43 [DanCon]
JimH: the presentation in frame notation is pushed to a presentation syntax
16:22:40 [DanCon]
16:23:14 [DanCon]
DanC [earlier]: for my money, it's not 'bad news' if level 2 disappears.
16:23:46 [DanCon]
JimH suggests Evan put his concerns in email; Evan agrees.
16:24:04 [Zakim]
16:24:13 [DanCon]
==== 4) Test Issues (Jeremy C, 15 min)
16:24:38 [Zakim]
+ +1.850.202.aadd - is perhaps PatH?
16:25:11 [DanCon]
# WOWG: Proposed test cases for qualified cardinality constraints Jeremy Carroll (Wed, Apr 17 2002)
16:27:30 [DanCon]
PeterPS: it's not quite clear that we decided to drop *Q at the ftf.
16:27:47 [DanCon]
JimH: I guess we got close, but it wasn't a recorded decision.
16:28:26 [DanCon]
EvanW asks for and gets clarification: approval of test cases is done by the WG as a whole; e.g. in a telcon/ftf.
16:29:07 [DanCon]
MikeS: let's keep issue-related tests correlated to the issues list.
16:30:12 [DanCon]
JimH: is ok to make decisions without clear notice in the agenda? DanC: no.
16:30:55 [Zakim]
16:31:15 [DanCon]
re Jeremy's proposal to drop qualified cardinality constraints, JimH doesn't think we're ready to decide just now.
16:32:19 [DanCon]
Jeremy: this is 3.2 in the issues list (@@pointer)
16:32:54 [DanCon]
ACTION: Dan Connolly to arrange direct CVS access for appropriate members [Jeremy, JosD] of the test focus area to that repository
16:33:20 [DanCon]
ACTION: DanCto arrange a test repository on the site
16:33:24 [JonB]
JonB has joined #webont
16:33:41 [DanCon]
in progress:
16:34:32 [DanCon]
PROPOSED: the WG assigns to the test focus area responsibility for
16:34:33 [DanCon]
maintaining the approved test cases in light of future changes made to OWL
16:34:33 [DanCon]
by the WG (for example, the assignment of an appropriate namespace).
16:35:12 [DanCon]
DanC wonders about the accountability of 'the test focus area'; that's DanC/Jeremy/Jos, yes?
16:35:19 [DanCon]
JosD: there were 6 volunteers for test.
16:36:11 [DanCon]
PROPOSED: the WG assigns to Jeremy and the test focus area responsibility for maintaining the approved test cases in light of future changes made to OWL by the WG (for example, the assignment of an appropriate namespace).
16:36:41 [DanCon]
16:37:37 [DanCon]
ACTION Jeremy: propose (again) that *Q gets droped.
16:37:47 [DanCon]
====== 3) Issues list (Hendler, 35 min)
16:38:31 [DanCon]
issues list updated 16 Apr
16:38:58 [DanCon]
MikeS: I've only added 3 issues [since the ftf]
16:39:41 [DanCon]
JimH: I'd like to be clear about using the issues list to drive our process/agenda.
16:40:33 [DanCon]
Jeremy explains how RDF Core works... issue list is a TODO list; when the WG closes all the issues, we're done [modulo editorial work].
16:41:01 [DanCon]
Jeremy: I'm not exactly sure how stuff gets on the issues list. Chair seems to add stuff in response to comments to www-rdf-comments.
16:41:46 [DanCon]
Jeremy: issues have a clear status: open: we're discussing it. closed: we've decided. pre-open/raised: we acknowledge it's an issue, but we're not discussing it yet.
16:42:11 [DanCon]
Jeremy: part of the discipline is to talk about just the open issues, not the closed nor only raised stuff.
16:42:29 [DanCon]
Jeremy: issue names and agenda items often carry issue names.
16:42:33 [DanCon]
16:42:47 [DanCon]
rather: mail messages and agenda items often carry issue names.
16:43:12 [DanCon]
... which makes it easy for me to, e.g., follow I18N issues.
16:43:45 [Zakim]
16:43:48 [DanCon]
Jos/DanC: when an issue is opened, someone is [usually?] designated the owner/discussion-leader.
16:44:56 [DanCon]
PatH: the chair is fairly liberal in accepting issues, but also pretty liberal in dispatching them. issues might be 'need more documentation on X'. This gives confidence that when you're done with the issues, you're really done.
16:45:40 [DanCon]
PatH: there's also the business of going back to the party who raised the issue and saying 'this is what we decided; ok?'
16:45:48 [DanCon]
JimH: so... does this sound workable?
16:46:45 [DanCon]
PeterPS: for this issue-driven model to work, we need a starting point [status quo].... DAML+OIL as submitted?
16:48:07 [Zakim]
16:48:52 [JonB]
16:49:17 [DanCon]
[... some discussion of size/shape/smell of issues...]
16:51:41 [DanCon]
[... discussion of the fairly high, but not impossibly high, bar for re-opening an issue...]
16:56:20 [DanCon]
[several]: yes, let's do a call for issues on DAML+OIL. lasting about 2 weeks. JimH offers to do the call
16:58:02 [DanCon]
after consideration, public call for issues should maybe postponed to publication of 1st WG
17:01:16 [DanCon]
Jeremy points out the importance of being able to link to issues.
17:01:16 [DanCon]
17:01:18 [DanCon]
MikeS: I need to fix some of the #fragIds
17:01:40 [DanCon]
Jeremy: yes; let's open qualified restrictions issue.
17:03:56 [DanCon]
JimH: yes, issue is open as of Jeremy's ACTION above.
17:05:43 [libby]
gotta go, bye
17:05:46 [Zakim]
17:06:45 [DanCon]
JimH: ok to leave process for raising issues raising issue informal for now?
17:06:48 [DanCon]
[several]: yes
17:07:09 [DanCon]
ACTION MikeS: send to chairs how you'd like issue raised
17:07:49 [DanCon]
then chairs to review and send to group; then issues list will incorporate this process description.
17:09:01 [DanCon]
==== ftf record
17:09:02 [DanCon]
17:09:30 [DanCon]
JosD, Jeremy have looked at it.
17:10:13 [JonB]
17:10:33 [Zakim]
17:11:07 [DanCon]
ACTION JimH: provide roll call data.
17:12:49 [DanCon]
NOTE WELL: comments on the meeting record are due by next week's telcon
17:15:56 [DanCon]
===== next week
17:16:07 [DanCon]
volunteer to scribe?
17:16:33 [DanCon]
note: IRC isn't required.
17:16:55 [DanCon]
Mike S offers, but due to his roll in the telcon, is declined.
17:17:04 [DanCon]
JimH: note: Guus is chairing next week.
17:17:11 [Zakim]
17:17:11 [DanCon]
17:17:13 [Zakim]
17:17:14 [Zakim]
17:17:15 [Zakim]
17:17:16 [Zakim]
17:17:16 [Zakim]
17:17:18 [Zakim]
17:17:19 [Zakim]
17:17:20 [Zakim]
17:17:20 [Zakim]
17:17:22 [Zakim]
17:17:25 [Zakim]
17:17:30 [Zakim]
17:17:31 [Zakim]
17:17:34 [Zakim]
17:17:35 [Zakim]
SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has ended
17:20:35 [jhendler]
ok, gotta run - ciao.
17:20:47 [jhendler]
jhendler has left #webont
18:59:32 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #webont
20:12:18 [connolly]
connolly has joined #webont
21:42:57 [connolly]
connolly has joined #webont