IRC log of webont on 2002-04-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:58:01 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #webont
15:58:07 [DanC]
RRSAgent, pointer?
15:58:07 [RRSAgent]
15:58:58 [Zakim]
15:59:11 [Zakim]
15:59:14 [DanC]
DanC has changed the topic to: 11Apr telcon of W3C WebOnt
15:59:27 [Zakim]
15:59:56 [IanH]
IanH has joined #webont
15:59:59 [timfinin]
timfinin has joined #webont
16:00:01 [DanC]
Zakim, LarryEshelman just joined
16:00:03 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'LarryEshelman just joined', DanC. Try /msg Zakim help
16:00:18 [DanC]
Zakim, +??P40 is LarryEshelman
16:00:19 [Zakim]
sorry, DanC, I do not recognize a party named '+??P40'
16:00:26 [DanC]
Zakim, ??P40 is LarryEshelman
16:00:27 [Zakim]
+LarryEshelman; got it
16:00:51 [Zakim]
16:01:10 [logger_1]
logger_1 has joined #webont
16:01:34 [IanH]
Not me!
16:02:03 [Zakim]
16:02:04 [Zakim]
16:02:05 [Zakim]
16:02:30 [Zakim]
+ +31.20.779.aabb
16:02:46 [DanC]
Zakim, +31.20.779.aabb is DieterF
16:02:47 [Zakim]
+DieterF; got it
16:02:50 [Zakim]
16:02:53 [Zakim]
16:02:58 [Zakim]
+ +1.540.364.aacc
16:03:13 [las]
las has joined #webont
16:03:34 [Zakim]
16:03:46 [Zakim]
16:03:57 [Zakim]
16:04:03 [Zakim]
+ +1.781.292.aadd
16:04:15 [Zakim]
16:04:22 [las]
zakim, 1.781.292.aadd is LynnS
16:04:24 [Zakim]
sorry, las, I do not recognize a party named '1.781.292.aadd'
16:04:39 [DanC]
11 on the bridge, per
16:04:41 [Zakim]
16:05:28 [Zakim]
16:05:35 [Zakim]
- +1.540.364.aacc
16:05:36 [Zakim]
16:05:44 [Zakim]
16:05:48 [DanC]
Massimo, you're causing ringing/busy stuff;
16:05:51 [Massimo]
Massimo has joined #webont
16:05:52 [DanC]
Amy disconnected you
16:06:03 [DanC]
Massimo, maybe you can just watch IRC.
16:06:05 [DanC]
for a bit.
16:06:14 [Zakim]
16:06:19 [Massimo]
I can dial in to the office, but I'll have to leave earlier then
16:06:33 [Zakim]
+ +1.540.364.aaee
16:06:50 [DanC]
Zakim, +1.540.364.aaee is Leo
16:06:57 [Zakim]
+Leo; got it
16:07:10 [Zakim]
16:07:53 [JosD]
JosD has joined #webont
16:07:59 [las]
zakim, +1.781.292.aadd is LynnS
16:08:01 [Zakim]
+LynnS; got it
16:08:23 [nmg]
James Barnette - alt
16:08:34 [DanC]
calling roll from
16:08:51 [DanC]
Massimo: folks at the ftf are excused from today's telcon
16:09:06 [DanC]
Zakim, who's here?
16:09:07 [Zakim]
I see NickG, Ian.Horrocks, ??P39, LarryEshelman, ??P1, ??P5, ??P0, M.Smith, LynnS, ??P12, DieterF, Leo, Massimo
16:09:23 [DanC]
Chris W,
16:09:28 [nmg]
Chris Welty - present
16:09:29 [DanC]
Leo O.
16:09:30 [DanC]
Deb M.
16:09:33 [nmg]
Leo Obrst - present
16:09:33 [DanC]
Jeff H.
16:09:37 [DanC]
Jos D.
16:09:41 [nmg]
Jeff Heflin - present
16:09:45 [Zakim]
16:09:46 [nmg]
Deb McGuinness - present
16:09:56 [DanC]
16:10:02 [nmg]
Jos De Roo - present
16:10:05 [nmg]
Tim Finin - present
16:10:26 [nmg]
(in addition to those listed by Zakim)
16:10:50 [Zakim]
16:10:52 [nmg]
danc: calls for agenda items
16:11:01 [nmg]
danc starts with action items
16:11:02 [DanC]
WITHDRAWN. (Mar 14) John Stanton: report back on different kinds of tests
16:11:09 [DanC]
DONE: (Mar 21) FrankH: annotated version of lang proposal.
16:11:15 [DanC]
DONE: (Mar 28) Guus: organize ftf telecon facilities both days
16:11:15 [DanC]
16:11:20 [nmg]
danc: calls to withdraw action on john stanton - passed
16:11:34 [jhendler]
jhendler has joined #webont
16:11:34 [DanC]
ACTION CONTINUES: (Mar 28) DanC, Lynn Stein (prov.), Jos De Roo, to participate
16:11:34 [DanC]
in RDF core discussions on construct for closed lists
16:12:38 [DanC]
DONE: (Mar 28) Updated decision-tree doc for ftf
16:12:43 [nmg]
las: not going to be available for next two weeks (affects previous action)
16:12:44 [Zakim]
16:13:01 [Zakim]
16:13:22 [nmg]
chair changes to JimH
16:13:27 [nmg]
Stephen Buswell joins
16:13:41 [DanC]
ACTION CONTINUES: (Mar 28) Chairs to clarify OWL naming problem
16:14:10 [DanC]
== 2) Recap face-to-face (chairs, 45 min)
16:14:18 [nmg]
2) Recap face-to-face (chairs, 45 min)
16:14:55 [nmg]
jimh: recap for non-attendants of f2f
16:15:05 [DanC]
JimH: my laptop went kerflewy, took some meeting records with it.
16:15:07 [dieter]
dieter has joined #webont
16:15:20 [nmg]
jimh: machine problems - will post issues to list when these are rectified
16:15:51 [DanC]
ftf home page: with link to potential new issues:
16:16:20 [nmg]
jimh: issues from f2f will move from f2f issue list to main issue list (curated by Mike Smith) as and when people take responsibility for them
16:18:07 [Zakim]
16:18:23 [nmg]
jimh: onus is on WG members to write up the issues and submit to the list
16:18:45 [nmg]
jimh: where write up == couple of sentences
16:19:16 [nmg]
jimh: not necessarily cleaned up
16:19:34 [nmg]
mikesmith: in same format as existing issues
16:19:40 [DanC]
current issues list, again, linked from ftf page; soon to be linked from WG home page:
16:20:12 [Zakim]
+ +1.949.380.aaff
16:20:30 [nmg]
jimh: will take questions on issues in the mail
16:20:48 [Zakim]
16:21:10 [DanC]
got those 2, Nick?
16:21:18 [nmg]
Gerd Wagner - present
16:21:22 [nmg]
Lynn Stein - present
16:21:41 [DanC]
I believe it was Lynn Thompson
16:21:55 [nmg]
sorry - hearing is not too good
16:22:04 [las]
I believe it was Lynne Thompson :o)
16:22:08 [DanC]
that's why IRC helps ;-)
16:22:49 [JosD]
JosD has joined #webont
16:23:02 [Massimo]
BTW, before assigning issues, pls *name* them appropriately, eg A-Amsterdam-01, A-Amsterdam-02 etc etc
16:23:08 [nmg]
jimh: issues list has been mailed to list, resolution list has been lost in 'laptop kerflewy'
16:23:37 [nmg]
jimh: will recreate form irc log
16:24:20 [DanC]
IRC logs from the ftf: (linked from ftf page )
16:26:19 [JosD]
JosD has joined #webont
16:26:19 [nmg]
jimh recounts resolutions from 9 Apr 2002:
16:27:28 [DanC]
ugh. decisions with recorded dissent. now we gotta get the dissent recorded.
16:27:31 [schreiber]
schreiber has joined #webont
16:27:49 [DanC]
hi guus. I'm chairing; Jim's leading a decision on item2, the ftf
16:29:18 [DanC]
16:29:51 [schreiber]
Dan, I am having trouble calling in, may work in a minute
16:30:04 [DanC]
I see. ok.
16:30:52 [nmg]
[discussion on non-normative presentation syntaxes]
16:33:01 [nmg]
jimh: issue not recorded in these resolutions: ability to attribute facts to original document
16:33:43 [nmg]
jimh: way around 'round-trip' problem (dealing with ordering, etc)
16:34:03 [nmg]
Evan Wallace - present
16:35:05 [nmg]
jimh: base resolutions do not guarantee that tools will be able to recreate original document after passing through several translations
16:35:19 [nmg]
jimh: one open issue - what do we mean by round tripping?
16:36:50 [nmg]
jimh: round tripping becomes harder when document changes - extralogical metadata one possible solution
16:36:50 [DanC]
this is Finin speaking, I think. Mike S before him.
16:38:38 [Zakim]
16:39:04 [DanC]
Zakim, ??P4 is Guus
16:39:05 [nmg]
Guus Schreiber - present
16:39:06 [Zakim]
+Guus; got it
16:39:51 [nmg]
???: non-normative languages need not impact on the timetable for OWL
16:39:53 [Massimo]
That was me.
16:39:57 [nmg]
16:40:29 [Massimo]
More precisely, they could go in separate Notes, not impacting the normative spec's timeline.
16:41:30 [nmg]
LarryEshelman: explain further about dark triples
16:41:56 [nmg]
jimh: consensus recorded on this issue
16:43:10 [nmg]
jimh: resolving issues between rdf syntax, semantics and entailment. dark triples provide one way of dealing with this
16:43:35 [nmg]
jimh: rdf-core looking at this, but not clear whether this was more on charter for webont or rdf-core
16:43:41 [Zakim]
16:44:21 [nmg]
jimh: at end, unanimous agreement that there be triples in the graph which not be asserted (ie. dark)
16:44:49 [nmg]
jimh: various approaches: separate graphs, separate files, etc
16:45:34 [nmg]
jimh: significant crossover between membership of webont and rdf-core
16:46:14 [nmg]
jimh: raised action to send message to SW CG to the effect that, to achieve aims in charter, need a dark triple mechanism in rdf
16:49:34 [nmg]
jimh: on first day of f2f, took polls on owl-lite/owl-full proposal
16:50:26 [nmg]
danc: procedural point regarding dissent in resolutions passed on second day
16:50:44 [DanC]
mikes, I might need those resolutions with dissent kept in the issues list.
16:50:56 [nmg]
jimh: wg members will have opportunity to explain reasons for their dissent before publication
16:50:59 [DanC]
timecheck: almost time to close.
16:52:21 [nmg]
jimh: following poll on triage of language features into level 1 (lite) and level 2 (full), most features had passed into level 1
16:52:55 [nmg]
jimh: group to rework level 1/2 conformance issue
16:52:58 [DanC]
jimh, can you wind up?
16:53:42 [nmg]
16:54:37 [nmg]
debm: suggestion for wg members attending kr2002 to meet
16:54:45 [DanC]
cf # ALL: WG schedule Guus Schreiber (Wed, Mar 27 2002)
16:55:53 [nmg]
guus: need to ask SW CG to revise schedule, need to be sure that we can meet this revised schedule before this
16:57:00 [nmg]
danc: scribe for next meeting?
16:57:35 [DanC]
regrets for IanH, DebM for 18Apr
16:57:39 [nmg]
ianh, debm: excuses for next week
16:58:08 [nmg]
guus: clash with 25 Apr telecon and kr2002
16:58:44 [nmg]
ianh: substantial number of WG members likely to be at kr2002
16:59:13 [Zakim]
16:59:15 [Zakim]
16:59:16 [timfinin]
The following issue was raised at the Amsterdam face-to-face meeting.
16:59:16 [timfinin]
This is an attempt to capture it in text, as promised in the conference
16:59:16 [timfinin]
call of 11 April, 2002.
16:59:16 [timfinin]
DAML+OIL has concepts of UniqueProperty and UnambiguousProperty that
16:59:16 [timfinin]
are very useful but whose names seem to cause some confusion for
16:59:16 [nmg]
16:59:16 [Zakim]
16:59:17 [timfinin]
people learning the language. Assuming we have the same concepts in
16:59:20 [Zakim]
16:59:20 [timfinin]
OWL, we should decide on names that will be intuitive or at least
16:59:22 [timfinin]
minimize confusion. For a DAML+OIL triple (S,P,0), if P is a
16:59:22 [DanC]
RRSAgent, pointer?
16:59:22 [RRSAgent]
16:59:22 [Zakim]
16:59:22 [Zakim]
16:59:22 [timfinin]
uniqueProperty then S, the subject value, uniquely identifies O, the
16:59:25 [timfinin]
object value. If P is an UnambiguousProperty then then O determines S.
16:59:33 [Zakim]
16:59:40 [Zakim]
16:59:40 [Zakim]
16:59:42 [Zakim]
16:59:42 [Zakim]
16:59:45 [Zakim]
- +1.949.380.aaff
16:59:50 [Zakim]
16:59:51 [Zakim]
17:00:25 [Zakim]
17:00:26 [DanC]
jimh, guus, we can use IRC if you like
17:00:36 [DanC]
ah... better now.
17:00:40 [DanC]
RRSAgent, stop