IRC log of webont on 2002-03-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:17:38 [RRSAgent]

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16:17:43 [DanC]

RRSAgent, pointer?

16:17:43 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2002/03/21-webont-irc#T16-17-43

16:18:00 [Massimo]

:)

16:18:32 [DanC]

you can go ahead and dial in, I guess.

16:18:43 [DanC]

Zakim, what's the passcode?

16:18:44 [Zakim]

sorry, DanC, I don't know what conference this is

16:19:03 [DanC]

Zakim, it's in the agenda.

16:19:04 [Zakim]

sorry, DanC, I do not recognize a party named 'the agenda.'

16:19:14 [Massimo]

lol

16:19:26 [Massimo]

wouldn't it be cool ?

16:19:38 [Massimo]

actually, had we all this in XML....

16:19:42 [Massimo]

:!

16:19:48 [DanC]

how's metalog coming, by now? surely it groks all natural language by now, no?

16:19:49 [DanC]

;-)

16:20:03 [Massimo]

double-lol ;)

16:20:13 [Massimo]

actually, metalog is starting to live again

16:20:30 [Massimo]

I'm taking back the material, and have got a couple of students to bring along the code

16:20:33 [DanC]

DanC has changed the topic to: WebOnt 21Mar: chair: ?; scribe: Decker

16:20:51 [Massimo]

there's already some loose prototype of the natural language -> RDF part

16:21:00 [Massimo]

sort of "flavored N3" I guess ;)

16:21:09 [DaveB]

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16:21:29 [DaveB]

oops, logger_1 got ops

16:21:47 [DaveB]

just checking on logger_1 new irc channel, port

16:22:04 [DaveB]

yeah, working

16:22:11 [DaveB]

bye

16:22:12 [DaveB]

DaveB has left #webont

16:22:17 [Massimo]

getting on it now....

16:22:34 [Massimo]

I assume usual passcode

16:22:55 [Massimo]

(usual = 9326)

16:23:11 [DanC]

having any luck? I'm losing.

16:23:22 [Massimo]

I'm behind you... ;)

16:24:11 [Massimo]

mmm, couldn't it be because , cf http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/Zakim.html

16:24:17 [Massimo]

the bridge is full?

16:24:32 [Massimo]

(or overheating? ;)

16:24:53 [DanC]

or maybe our reservation doesn't work until T-10min; I think I heard that recently.

16:25:01 [Massimo]

yes, I think so

16:25:19 [Massimo]

is there a way to create one on the fly?

16:25:33 [Massimo]

aka Zakim, please create teleconf bla, passcode bla2

16:25:34 [Massimo]

?

16:52:49 [jonb]

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16:56:08 [Zakim]

SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has now started

16:56:15 [Zakim]

+Marwan.Sabbouh

16:57:04 [Zakim]

+ +1.781.899.aaaa

16:58:40 [DanC]

Zakim, +1.781.899.aaaa is JonB

16:58:41 [Zakim]

+JonB; got it

16:58:53 [Zakim]

+Evan.Wallace

16:59:08 [Zakim]

+ +44.196.266.aabb

16:59:35 [Zakim]

+??P27

16:59:42 [Zakim]

+JHendler

16:59:46 [Zakim]

+??P30

17:00:00 [Zakim]

+??P36

17:00:05 [Zakim]

+DanC

17:00:19 [jhendler]

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17:00:33 [jhendler]

jhendler has changed the topic to: WebOnt 21Mar: chair: Hendler; scribe: Decker

17:00:42 [mdean]

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17:00:47 [libby__]

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17:00:50 [Zakim]

+Massimo

17:00:51 [Zakim]

+??P38

17:00:52 [Zakim]

+MDean

17:00:59 [ora]

ora has joined #webont

17:01:01 [Zakim]

-DanC

17:01:02 [Zakim]

+SDecker

17:01:06 [Zakim]

-JHendler

17:01:07 [Zakim]

+??P35

17:01:14 [Zakim]

+M.Smith

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17:01:25 [Zakim]

+JHendler

17:01:27 [Zakim]

+DanC

17:01:35 [Zakim]

+??P43

17:01:47 [jhendler]

zakim, who is here

17:01:48 [Zakim]

jhendler, you need to end that query with '?'

17:01:49 [Zakim]

+ +1.540.364.aacc

17:01:50 [nmg]

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17:01:52 [jhendler]

zakim, who is here?

17:01:53 [Zakim]

I see Marwan.Sabbouh, JonB, Evan.Wallace, +44.196.266.aabb, ??P27, ??P30, DanC, ??P36, Massimo, ??P38, MDean, SDecker, ??P35, M.Smith, JHendler, ??P43, +1.540.364.aacc

17:01:53 [Zakim]

+Lassila

17:02:16 [Zakim]

+??P14

17:02:24 [Zakim]

-??P27

17:02:48 [libby__]

I think might have been me...

17:02:57 [Zakim]

+??P3

17:03:01 [libby__]

will some one tell amy?

17:03:14 [libby__]

(the echo that is - pressed wrong button!

17:03:25 [Zakim]

+??P6

17:03:33 [Zakim]

+??P19

17:03:46 [DanC]

any volunteers to scribe?

17:04:17 [DanC]

not everyone at once, ok?

17:04:32 [Zakim]

+??P27

17:04:55 [DanC]

DanC has changed the topic to: WebOnt 21Mar: chair: Hendler; scribe: DanC

17:05:01 [DanC]

agenda?

17:05:07 [Zakim]

-SDecker

17:05:11 [DanC]

ACTION Stefan: get well.

17:05:40 [Zakim]

+??P39

17:06:30 [frankh]

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17:07:13 [Zakim]

+??P41

17:09:19 [DanC]

(roll taken separately; will send)

17:09:45 [DanC]

=== - action item review

17:09:55 [DanC]

DONE: (March 21): Frank van Harmelen: initial proposal for frame part of ...

17:10:06 [DanC]

re Peter Patel-Schneider to develop list of conditions on

17:10:06 [DanC]

semantics of the language (in a cohesive form.). Input requested from

17:10:06 [DanC]

anyone.

17:10:10 [DanC]

DONE. (pointer, pls?)

17:10:21 [DanC]

ACTION: Pat Hayes will do the same. CONTINUES.

17:10:37 [DanC]

ACTION (Mar 14) Guus Schreiber: turn CM examples into tests CONTINUES.

17:10:49 [DanC]

ACTION (Mar 14) John Stanton: report back on different kinds of tests (very

17:10:49 [DanC]

short)

17:10:49 [DanC]

OPEN.

17:10:53 [DanC]

CONTINUES.

17:11:14 [pfps]

My message on the action item was 0173.html

17:11:38 [DanC]

ACTION Finin: report test results. CONTINUES.

17:11:58 [DanC]

SEM DESIDERATA: my initial desiderata list http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Mar/0173.html

17:12:16 [DanC]

====== ftf

17:12:29 [DanC]

frankh: all but about 4 have registered/sent regrets

17:12:41 [DanC]

25 registered to participate

17:12:45 [JosD]

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17:13:10 [DanC]

DanC: offers regrets

17:13:17 [DanC]

Massimo covering.

17:14:01 [Zakim]

+??P12

17:14:12 [DanC]

JimH: ftf agenda due two weeks in advance, i.e. this monday. Guus/DanC/Massimo and I plan to meet monday.

17:14:29 [DanC]

Zakim, ??P12 is IanH

17:14:30 [Zakim]

+IanH; got it

17:14:37 [IanH]

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17:14:40 [DanC]

registrants: http://www.cwi.nl/htbin/buro/W3Clijst

17:15:26 [DanC]

JimH: I'd like to have each focus area give a status update

17:16:29 [DanC]

no particular volunteers from GUIDE at this point;

17:16:34 [Zakim]

+??P44

17:16:36 [DanC]

volunteers should contact the chairs by Monday.

17:16:51 [DanC]

Zakim, ??P44 is Enrico

17:16:52 [Zakim]

+Enrico; got it

17:16:52 [IanH]

Whoever is scribing: Ian Horrocks joined late

17:17:26 [DanC]

frankh: yes, I can present/lead discussion for ~20 min on LANG

17:17:50 [DanC]

JimH: I think Jeremy can do TEST; I'll confirm

17:18:00 [DanC]

PeterPS: yes, I can do something for SEM

17:18:51 [DanC]

JimH: we expect to have focus group break-outs [did I get that right?]

17:19:15 [DanC]

... as well as group discussion of each area.

17:19:27 [DanC]

i.e. all-WG discussion of each area.

17:20:29 [DanC]

JimH: I'm trying to figure out if we should expect to decide the layering issues at this ftf.

17:21:51 [DanC]

JimH: are folks prepared to decide?

17:21:55 [DanC]

[several]: no.

17:22:53 [DanC]

Evan: if somebody from the "lots of stuff entailed" camp would explain what we lose by going with PatH's approach.

17:23:09 [DanC]

... where the queries introduce things [?]

17:23:14 [DanC]

DanC: wans't that Jeremy?

17:23:32 [DanC]

PeterPS: I don't know enough about Jeremy's approach to [...?]

17:25:43 [DanC]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Jan/att-0061/01-swol.text

17:25:49 [DanC]

The Web Ontology Language (OWL)

17:25:49 [DanC]

RDF compatible

17:25:49 [DanC]

Peter F. Patel-Schneider

17:25:49 [DanC]

Bell Labs Research

17:25:49 [DanC]

(4 January 2002)

17:27:23 [DanC]

PeterPS: I'm willing to put together a collection of pointers to proposals.

17:28:00 [Enrico]

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17:28:11 [DanC]

^ citation above is an answer to Dan's question, to Peter, to pick his favorite proposal. Peter then wasn't sure that's his favorite proposal.

17:29:06 [frankh]

request for the floor

17:29:55 [DanC]

PeterPS: suppose I put a decision tree together, with the negative consequences I see in each case.

17:30:10 [Enrico]

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17:30:56 [DanC]

frankh: I think the trouble is that the consequences aren't correlated to stuff folks understand and care about. [... more that I missed?]

17:31:44 [DanC]

PeterPS: yes, there's some work to do in relating things like "you can't do a full reasoner" to use cases.

17:32:31 [JonB]

q+

17:34:12 [DanC]

JonB: I'm struggling a bit to understand some of the details, but if we're to do something that involves changing RDF, we'd better do that soon, no?

17:34:34 [DanC]

JimH: yes, RDF Core is trying to go to last call [i.e. have all issues closed] by May.

17:35:47 [DanC]

JimH: could you [Peter] lead a discussion at the ftf about relating the formal consequences to use cases?

17:36:23 [DanC]

ACTION PeterPS: decision tree doc.

17:36:32 [DanC]

[due when? ftf-7days?]

17:37:07 [pfps]

initial version by the weekend, finalized by 8 April

17:37:15 [DanC]

frankh: []

17:37:27 [jhendler]

finalized by 1 April...

17:37:53 [pfps]

right, I'm not thinking straight about dates

17:39:26 [Zakim]

-??P19

17:39:50 [jhendler]

JimH will cover --

17:40:07 [jhendler]

Q: how does it compare (expressively) to D+O

17:40:24 [jhendler]

Frank: overall complexity needed to be lower - we're trying to ad a graceful step in.

17:41:15 [libby__]

DanC: can't evaluate unless concrete syntax

17:43:07 [DanC]

JimH: recap: key things seem to be SEM/layering, LANG... not sure about TEST...

17:43:51 [DanC]

DanC: I'd like to talk with folks with software...

17:43:59 [DanC]

JimH: but do you need WG decisions re TEST?

17:44:06 [DanC]

DanC: no, I don't suppose so.

17:45:48 [DanC]

JimH: RDF Core has decided that parseType="daml:collection" [doesn't work].

17:46:27 [DanC]

JimH: anybody in particular wanna be involved there? we're going to talk in the Semantic Web CG.

17:46:40 [DanC]

if you haven't already sent mail expressing interest, please do so.

17:46:51 [DanC]

---

17:46:52 [DanC]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/webont-issues.html

17:48:35 [DanC]

JimH: can you maintain that as our "when we're done with these, we're done" list, Mike?

17:48:41 [DanC]

Mike: yes, I expect so.

17:49:23 [DanC]

ACTION Mike: notify the WG by 1Apr what version of the issues list to use.

17:49:44 [DanC]

as Mike doesn't plan to be at the ftf, JonB offers to fill in as issues-maintainer there.

17:50:10 [DanC]

===== 3) LANG: Language proposal

17:50:28 [DanC]

cf http://www.cs.vu.nl/~frankh/spool/OWL-first-proposal/

17:50:36 [DanC]

http://www.cs.vu.nl/~frankh/spool/OWL-first-proposal/motivation.html

17:50:43 [DanC]

http://www.cs.vu.nl/~frankh/spool/OWL-first-proposal/walkthrough.html

17:50:47 [DanC]

http://www.cs.vu.nl/~frankh/spool/OWL-first-proposal/frame.html

17:53:47 [Zakim]

+??P0

17:55:13 [DanC]

DanC: if you take this simpler frame abstract syntax and render it in RDF concrete syntax, won't you get something as unattractive as DAML+OIL?

17:55:29 [DanC]

frankh: [oops... missed it]

17:55:50 [DanC]

IanH: [there would be more structure...?]

17:57:35 [DanC]

[lots of discussion that isn't easy to capture...]

17:59:19 [DanC]

Jos: is UnambigousProperty in there?

17:59:27 [DanC]

frankh: yes, but with a different name...

18:00:11 [DanC]

[something about "the stuff about ontologies" being missing, but it's not a proposal to get rid of it]

18:01:44 [JonB]

The RDF syntax of the "Lite" vs. full language will look very similar

18:06:33 [DanC]

[discussion of, e.g. required vs. minCardinality = 1 ... formally, same meaning. to people learning the language, quite different]

18:07:14 [DanC]

Jeremy: a way this shows up in TEST/implementation/tools: when you read in "required", is it ok to spit out "minCardinality=1"? or do we need to be able to round-trip without losing the idioms?

18:07:22 [DanC]

frankh: yes, that's a good way to put it.

18:09:13 [DanC]

JimH: how about, for the 1 Apr ftf-prep deadline, an annotated version... where the annotations come from WG comments raising issues, proposing concrete syntax for parts, or whatever?

18:09:27 [DanC]

ACTION FrankH: annotated version of lang proposal.

18:09:29 [DanC]

by 1Apr

18:10:50 [DanC]

frankh: I think the minCardinality=1 vs required is pretty essential to the proposal; that's the gist of it...

18:11:11 [DanC]

Enrico: [agree... to some extent...?]

18:11:44 [JonB]

q+

18:15:32 [jhendler]

zakim ack JonB

18:18:36 [Zakim]

-??P30

18:18:58 [DanC]

Jeremy: the value of this proposal seems to be: that the frame idiom will be apparent, to the extent that it's interoperable between tools.

18:19:23 [Zakim]

+??P1

18:21:07 [DanC]

JimH: trying to summarize: one sense a simple first-face is as part of successive elaboration; i.e. here's the stuff you should learn first, follwed by less commonly-used stuff...

18:21:19 [DanC]

... vs. the identifyable subset stuff

18:22:33 [DanC]

JimH: I hear discusson about cardinality in particular: 0/1/many vs others; other feature issues?

18:23:03 [DanC]

DanC: the disjointness of R from V (in Peter's semantics for this language) seems unmotivated and awkward.

18:23:56 [DanC]

Enrico: [something about Transitive/inverse/symmetric; didn't catch it, I don't think]

18:24:33 [DanC]

Enrico: why does one more meta-property add complexity?

18:24:57 [DanC]

Mike Dean: in particular, I'd like to see SymmetricProperty

18:26:31 [DanC]

JimH: let's follow up in email...

18:27:02 [DanC]

frankh: I've been busily taking notes, and I have some stuff to add to an annotated version now...

18:27:45 [DanC]

Enrico: regarding primitive/defined class... the semantics I could live with, but the terminology is confusing.

18:28:12 [DanC]

frankh: yes, I agree the terms are ugly, but we couldn't find a replacement.

18:28:37 [DanC]

Enrico: rather than finding new terms, I think the destinction belongs in the class specification. [something about necessary/sufficient]

18:28:58 [DanC]

JimH: pls send mail about that; it's time to close the meeting.

18:29:33 [DanC]

---- next meeting

18:29:41 [DanC]

in one week, as usual.

18:29:43 [DanC]

scribe: Stefan

18:29:53 [Zakim]

-??P0

18:29:54 [Zakim]

-M.Smith

18:29:55 [DanC]

ADJOURN.

18:29:55 [Zakim]

-Evan.Wallace

18:29:58 [Zakim]

-??P38

18:30:00 [Zakim]

-??P3

18:30:00 [Zakim]

-Lassila

18:30:01 [Zakim]

-??P1

18:30:03 [Zakim]

-??P43

18:30:03 [Zakim]

- +1.540.364.aacc

18:30:05 [ora]

ora has left #webont

18:30:05 [Zakim]

-MDean

18:30:05 [Zakim]

-??P35

18:30:06 [Zakim]

-??P39

18:30:07 [Zakim]

- +44.196.266.aabb

18:30:08 [Zakim]

-??P6

18:30:11 [Zakim]

-DanC

18:30:13 [Zakim]

-??P27

18:30:14 [Zakim]

-??P41

18:30:20 [Zakim]

-??P14

18:30:24 [Zakim]

-IanH

18:30:30 [Zakim]

-JonB

18:30:31 [Zakim]

-Marwan.Sabbouh

18:30:50 [Zakim]

-??P36

18:30:54 [Zakim]

-JHendler

18:30:56 [Zakim]

-Massimo

18:31:32 [DanC]

RRSAgent, pointer?

18:31:32 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2002/03/21-webont-irc#T18-31-32

18:32:54 [DanC]

agenda?

18:33:14 [jhendler]

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19:19:01 [Zakim]

-Enrico

19:19:02 [Zakim]

SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has ended

19:29:56 [DanC]

Zakim, excuse us

19:29:57 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #webont

19:30:03 [DanC]

RRSAgent, excuse us