W3C TAG Teleconference of 2 May 2013

02 May 2013



Noah_Mendelsohn, Daniel_Appelquist, Peter_Linss, Jeni_Tennison, Marcos_Caceres, Alex_Russell, Anne_van_Kesteren
Tim_Berners-Lee, Henry_Thompson_(partial), Yehuda_Katz
Noah Mendelsohn
Marcos Caceres


<scribe> scribenick: Marcos

<scribe> scribe: Marcos Caceres

date: 2 May 2013

F2F Logistics

noah: we have a few weeks to get ready for the F2F. This is the best time to start picking topics for the F2F.
... I had an action to close ACTION-799


ACTION-799 -- Noah Mendelsohn to republish authoritative metadata finding -- due 2013-04-25 -- PENDINGREVIEW


close ACTION-799

<scribe> Closed ACTION-799 Republish authoritative metadata finding.


ACTION-752 -- Jeni Tennison to update URIs in data primer based on discussion at Tuesday F2F -- due 2012-11-13 -- PENDINGREVIEW


JeniT: May not be in TR space yet

noah: and also ACTION-752
... we will leave it open and settle it over email.
... I will rely on JeniT to help me close the action.
... and also if we should discuss that at the f2f.

New Members, yay! Noah resigns, boo!

noah: before we start discussing the f2f, we have good new: we have 2 new TAG members!

alex: hooray! welcome.

noah: we have Daniel Appelquist (dan) and Peter Linss (plinns) joining us

alex: boo! sorry to hear that, noah

noah: and I will be resigning officially on june 1st
... Ian Jacobs will send out a note in about 1 hour after this call. The new tag members will join on June 1st.
... one of the reasons for doing this now is that the TAG has been changing. I'm 100% supportive of the new membership.
... dan and plinss will co-chair the TAG
... I'll continue to help the new co-chairs get settled
... so, that's the news :)
... I want to be clear that as much as I've enjoyed and continue to enjoy chairing the TAG, this is great news. The TAG is going to find that it's VERY lucky to have such terrific new chairs who are so respected in the community, who know the technology and the TAG, and who are experienced with chairing.

dan: Thanks noah! I'm incredibly honored to take up this role. Thanks Noah for the fantastic work; can't possibly fill your shoes. I'm looking forward to the F2F so we can plan new work and get some renewed energy into the TAG. Looking forward to working with you all.

noah: I've had a fantastic time working with the TAG, and especially with our newest members, but with Tim having found such terrific replacements for me as chair, this is the perfect time to make the switch.
... I hope Peter and Dan will "drive" as much as they can of the chairing starting now, but I will also continue to help them after I officially resign on June 1.

plinss: Want to echo what dan said. I'm also excited to take up this role. I hope help make us more agile, and help us reach out more to the W3C groups, and to bring new positive changes.

noah: I would like you guys to start chairing as much as possible as soon as possible. And to chair as much as you can at the f2f; as much as you want to.

F2F Discussions

noah: I was going to go around the room and get a sense of what everyone wants to discuss/get-out-of the upcoming London f2f. We have some outstanding actions from the last F2F meeting.


ACTION-786 -- Marcos Caceres to frame, with help from Alex, discussion of Javascript API Design Issues for F2F -- due 2013-03-04 -- CLOSED



ACTION-788 -- Yehuda Katz to frame F2F discussion of liaison with ECMA TC39 -- due 2013-03-07 -- CLOSED



ACTION-784 -- Alex Russell to with help from Yehuda to frame F2F discussion of layering -- due 2013-03-04 -- OPEN


noah: I went through the minutes of the actions outstanding from the f2f. (actions above)
... so I will open it up for anyone that wants to come up with more stuff
... That's it for the F2F-related actions we have so far.

dan: we should keep some time at the f2f for a "workshop-ey" type discussion about how the TAG operates
... that's not to say that it's not working. It's just a good time to reflect on how the TAG works. It's an important discussion to have as maybe half day session. So we can get some resolutions about if we need to change anything (if at all!)

plinss: everything is up for grabs here. We have a different style and there are lots of different way of doing things (e.g., the CSS working group that I'm involved with does things much differently). So it would be good to revisit everything about how we work.

JeniT: I was going to mention technical bits of work. One was capability URLs. The other is something around web arch, where we have web applications interacting with each other.

noah: Something that I've wrestled for a few years is: what kind of impact should the TAG have? Where have we failed? If you do too much top down, you can end up with meta discussions that don't get you very far. So I want members to think about where the TAG can have most impact going forward.
... Right, I specifically would encourage you to think a bit about what overall goals and priorities for the TAG should be for the next two years. That helps to avoid just picking up 6 or 8 random things.

marcos: Anne, Alex, and Yehuda have been picking up specs and reviewing them behind the scenes - which is great. I've also been doing some of that too.
... There are also outreach opportunities, and things like interaction with TC-39 are to some degree happening already through folks like Anne, Alex and Yehuda. Plus there is also the public-script-coord mailing list.
... Maybe instead of trying to produce findings, more emphasis on outreach would be good.

dan: Fits into "how do we do work" - so how can we track which touch-points TAG members have?
... my first exposure to the TAG was when I was working with mobile best practices, and we reached out to the TAG for help. The TAG was really helpful there to that work, and I think the TAG has a good role to play there.

marcos: I spend my life in a bug tracker. It would be good to have a more bug-tracky way to track what the tag is working on (i.e, something better than the w3c tracker).

noah: the tricky bit is staying focus and making sure that we have clear priorities

dan: I was going to ask Alex if he had any comments?
... One of the proposals I've heard from someone is to work to make w3c working groups work better with the TAG. More useful interaction between working groups and the TAG...

alex: I'm sad to hear, noah, that you are going. In terms of what we can do, I'm spending significant time of my day reviewing and helping API designers. But that doesn't scale. So we need some way to scale that - my hope is that the TAG can become a force multiplier for that (helping folks). So it would be good to have a document that discusses idiomatic javascript APIs, how to build good APIs, etc. (see ACTION-786).

dan: I think that also sits under the category of "how we work better with other W3C WGs"
... previously, it felt like a distraction when we interacted with other working groups (e.g., at F2F meetings). Like we were imposing on them. It should be that the WGs should be coming to the TAG for help and so we can provide them with help and positive experience.
... Other groups used to feel like interacting with the TAG was a hoop to jump through, and that's unfortunate. My experience on mobile working with TAG was positive but perhaps atypical. We need to be part of the solution.
... Maybe nominate TAG ambassadors. Need to get interaction model right.

noah: plinss, any more ideas of how you would like to drive this forward?

plinss: not right now

annevk: One thing that might help is doing things a bit more informally. E.g., allowing members to go out and do things on their own.
... I think you have more success if you approach people in an informal way in my experience

dan: again, I feel that falls under the "how we work".

noah: Hmm, Anne's making an interesting point. I think the TAG has had a preconception that we had most impact speaking as a group, which we can only do w/ near consensus, but Anne may be right. It's possible we've missed an opportunity to de-emphasize that "speak as one" formal channel in favor of exposing various opinions held by TAG members.

alex: I agree with Marcos -- and flag myself guilty of not reporting back often enough

noah: I will say that on >some< things, the painful effort to work to consensus has taught us all a lot, by forcing us to listen to what seemed initially outlier opinions.

dan: I'm interested in seeing how we can make our work more relevant to the Web community. For example, the work on layering would probably fall into that bucket. i.e., how can we best connect with the Web dev community

alex: I agree with annevk that that's a great thing to look at

dan: +1 to discussing the work of the sysapps wg installable apps, etc.

annevk: I'm interested in discussing the work of the sysapps working group is doing. They are doing installable apps and it could potentially lead to a walled garden scenario- how does it work with the web?

dan: +1 +1 +1

alex: agree. I think this has implications for a permissioning model that nobody wants to bite off yet for various reasons
... plus an install model

annevk: I want to look at how w can be more competitive with web tech and obliterate walled gardens

dan: I don't think that installable apps are a real risk to the openness of the web.
... the w3c headlight's "closing the gap" project is also looking into this. We should probably get Dom to come and speak to us about that.

anne: (Yeah I don't think they're a threat per se. It's good they exist. I just think it might be worth looking into ways of not having them so you don't need centralized/decentralized stores.)

dan: The whole sysapps/closing the gap thing is a huge discussion point for the this year. It's going to have changes in the way that users perceive the web, so we should be involved in that

marcos: Dan and I are both involved in the headlights project. The TAG Ambadassador(tm) idea could be used in that context.

noah: we have few technical items for the f2f, apart from the layering work. We really have a choice in this meeting: we got what we got and run with it. But if there is technical stuff to be discussed, we need to get focused and start researching over the next few weeks.

dan: i think that because of the transition the TAG is going through, we need to focus on where we are going - and maybe move more of the technical stuff to the mailing list.

noah: yeah, that was my feeling also for the last f2f, because of all the next people - allowing people to get settled. The risk is that we are going to get to October and we are still going to be trying to get organized.
... that's just my perception

alex: +1, JeniT

JeniT: the only other thing is if there is anyone in London that we should invite to the meeting?

noah: can anyone think of someone?

dan: what about someone from the open data space?

JeniT: it is likely that the w3c is going to open up new groups in the open data space. Maybe Phil Archer?

dan: it would be good to have a slot in the agenda for open data

noah: what about a field trip to odi (Open Data Initiative?)

dan: I'm worried about losing time to have focused discussions. Maybe we can meet with them after hours?

JeniT: we've done something like that previously

alex: could we perhaps open up a dinner and invite webdevs to come meet us?
... London has lots of folks who might want to inject some perspective

anne: we might even be able to host that...

alex: I love the idea of a meetup. +1 to Dan's suggestion!

dan: we could maybe meet with devs at Mozilla

marcos: +1

noah: there is not much else on the agenda for today's call.

JeniT: thank you noah!

anne: thanks!

noah: I'm not hearing a big push to plan more technical stuff. So the next call will be in 2 weeks. Again, a big welcome to the new co-chairs! I think the TAG is incredibly lucky. My role is to support them. Thanks everyone! we are adjourned

Summary of Action Items

[End of minutes]

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