SWAD-Europe Workshop on Semantic Web Storage and Retrieval - IRC Chat Logs for 2003-11-14

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Previous day Thursday 2003-11-13

07:48:53 Users on #swade: logger_1 dajobe-lap danbri_dna danbri CaptSolo Wack

07:50:09 <dajobe-lap> hello

07:50:31 * danbri_dna waves

08:19:14 <afs> afs is now known as AndyS

08:25:57 <dajobe-lap> bnoide introduction for datatypes - 2

08:26:04 <dajobe-lap> infinte containership member props - 3

08:26:08 <dajobe-lap> ^- daveR

08:26:41 <dajobe-lap> jeen - mt is a formal spec of the semantics

08:26:57 <dajobe-lap> assumed section on entailment rules was a reflection of the mt

08:27:16 <dajobe-lap> why is bnode intro etc. in there. may be connect, but not useful

08:27:28 * dajobe-lap asks for volunteer typers

08:27:40 <dajobe-lap> daver - rules are informative not normative

08:28:29 <dajobe-lap> swh: (earlier) we aren't going to implement the 'obscure' things

08:29:21 <dajobe-lap> frankh - datatypes, who's not planning to impl them?

08:30:06 <dajobe-lap> alberto plan to use them for search and a little bit of inferencing, espec for geo stuff

08:30:30 <dajobe-lap> playing with the first level stuff near rdql support for dtypes in queries

08:31:42 <dajobe-lap> arjon - sesame ... support for numeric, booleans, ..

08:31:50 <dajobe-lap> .. support is comparison operators

08:32:08 <dajobe-lap> .. that appear in SeRQL

08:32:40 <dajobe-lap> jeen - datatype entailment in the spec is solved by our parser

08:32:45 <dajobe-lap> such as rdfD2

08:33:02 <dajobe-lap> frankv - litertals wit h xsd, store normalsied value in the databse

08:33:54 <dajobe-lap> db - asks jena about int in jena

08:34:02 <dajobe-lap> DaveR - ints in schema

08:34:08 <dajobe-lap> subclassling?

08:34:10 <dajobe-lap> xml datatypes?

08:34:28 <dajobe-lap> alberto - ideas uscing xml

08:36:32 <dajobe-lap> instance datatypes implementation not always available, but the parsing side of things can be found in xerces

08:36:54 <dajobe-lap> users want datatypes in & out at the java level

08:37:08 <dajobe-lap> don't want to do the datatype subclassing, at least so far - DaveR

08:37:33 <dajobe-lap> comparison internal to the datatypes

08:37:44 <dajobe-lap> arjon - received requests for integer comaprion ops, dates

08:37:57 <dajobe-lap> daver - just the xsd builtins

08:38:20 <dajobe-lap> ... in xsd you can define user defined but rdf can't use them since they have no uris

08:39:23 * nmg wondered why noone was on #swad-e

08:39:47 * AndyS did the same yesterday!

08:39:53 <dajobe-lap> arjon 0- domain and range restr?

08:40:29 <dajobe-lap> ... checking & rejecting things

08:41:04 <dajobe-lap> daver - you can have a violation here, the only place in rdfs you can

08:41:14 <dajobe-lap> .. bit of api that says validate()(

08:41:35 <dajobe-lap> swh: we just try an accept it in those cases

08:41:51 <dajobe-lap> .. we do fail a couple

08:41:56 <dajobe-lap> daver - whitespace thing?

08:42:15 <dajobe-lap> .. should reject ' 10.0 ' as an invalid xsd:integer

08:42:47 <dajobe-lap> arjon - we do it 'prpoerly' :)

08:43:59 <dajobe-lap> .. we don't have a parser input switch for this, but do trim on output

08:44:20 <dajobe-lap> jeen - ignore, normalise and validate 3-way switch

08:47:33 <AndyS>http://db.bell-labs.com/galax/

08:49:22 <AndyS> RDF+Xquery: WWW2003 BOF: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-rules/2003May/0020.html

08:53:03 <dajobe-lap> discussion of OWL bits

08:53:17 <dajobe-lap> owl tiny - transitive, symmetric, inverseof, sameas, different from, IFP, FP

08:53:24 <dajobe-lap> soton - plan to do the above

08:53:33 <dajobe-lap> advantages - no class defns, no restrictions

08:53:45 <dajobe-lap> discssuion of sameas and diff frmo for classes or instances, some or ther other

08:54:04 * dajobe-lap needs volunteer to scribe

08:54:38 <dajobe-lap> daver - the owl lite fragment of owl full

08:54:43 <dajobe-lap> ... you an have clases as instances

08:54:54 <dajobe-lap> not just parse but infer, sound but not complete

08:55:16 <dajobe-lap> .. two extensions - havehasvalue rules forwads and backwards

08:55:29 <dajobe-lap> haveValue - a restriction this property has that value

08:56:06 <dajobe-lap> horrible interactions when you have inverseOf

08:56:30 <dajobe-lap> 2nd extension was for cardinality constraints beyond 1

08:56:47 <dajobe-lap> i..e how many property values an instance has

08:56:55 <dajobe-lap> ... owl lite has 0, 1

08:56:58 <dajobe-lap> ^- frank

08:59:01 <dajobe-lap> gets hard with eqaulity in combination

08:59:37 <dajobe-lap> daver - reqeuest was for validating of datatype properties, needed >1 cardinality restrictions

08:59:58 <dajobe-lap> ... 2 sets of users - logiicans ndpeople using it as a near-schema validation language

09:02:08 <dajobe-lap> owl lite

09:02:18 <dajobe-lap> no big pressures for some/all values from to implement it

09:28:57 <dajobe-lap> owl discussion, no record

09:49:32 * nmg scribes

09:50:05 <nmg> dajobe: session concentrating on query languages rather than APIs

09:50:40 <nmg> dajobe: libby found > 12 rdf query languages

09:50:55 <nmg> dajobe: use cases for query as part of swad-e

09:51:33 <nmg> alberto: bof at sardinia (iswc) for query, delivered page of use cases (uri someone?)

09:52:00 <jeen>http://rdfstore.sourceforge.net

09:52:29 <arjohn>http://rdfstore.sourceforge.net/2002/06/24/rdf-query/query-use-cases.html

09:52:31 <nmg> alberto: comparison of query languages as well

09:52:42 <nmg> (thanks, arjohn)

09:52:47 <arjohn> ^^ query use cases by Andy and Alberto

09:53:44 <nmg> alberto: agreement on basics - conjunctive queries, constraints, context/provenance

09:55:24 <nmg> alberto: use acse page gives syntax comparison for queries in different QLs (also, return formats)

09:56:29 <arjohn>http://www.w3.org/2003/03/rdfqr-tests/recording-query-results.html

09:56:42 <nmg> alberto: continuation of effort through series of irc meetings

09:57:21 <libby> http://www.w3.org/2003/03/rdfqr-tests/ - query test data

09:57:30 <nmg> alberto: meeting at www2003 in budapest, feed into proposals for rdf query wg

09:58:13 <nmg> alberto: (our) trend for query langs is sql-friendly

09:58:27 <nmg> (lot of background noise :( )

10:00:13 <nmg> jeen/arjohn: (on SeRQL) main inputs for defn were other rdf query languages - didn't explicitly look at sql

10:00:32 <nmg> jeen: oql was an influence

10:00:38 <alberto> for tests see http://swordfish.rdfweb.org/rdfquery/tests/

10:00:44 <arjohn> SeRQL user manual: http://sesame.aidministrator.nl/publications/SeRQLmanual.html

10:00:45 <nmg> thanks

10:01:25 <dirkx> The reason for using RDQL is two fold - reuse the exisitng knowledge at the developer and reusre existing ODBC and JDBC infrastructure - and be able to exploit a lot of 'extra's in the SQL world (transactions, views, what not).

10:01:48 <nmg> dajobe: recursive queries and compositionality (cf. SeRQL CONSTRUCT)

10:01:57 <dirkx> Plus of course - you are overwhelming the developer/customer already with this totally new RDF thing - so going careful on the query is something to be considered.

10:02:11 <swh> dirkx: agreed

10:02:46 <nmg> dajobe: also, path-based query languages

10:02:47 <alberto> see also http://sourceforge.net/projects/rdftests for RDF (query) tests Web site - still empty :)

10:03:22 <nmg> libby: eg. damien steer's treehugger, also work by sbp and graham klyne. XPath-like syntax for RDF query

10:03:54 <nmg> dajobe: (query spec'd as path through a graph)

10:04:07 <dirkx> dirkx is now known as Dirk-Willem

10:04:32 <nmg> alberto: mapping between rdql and ath queries quite clear

10:05:21 <nmg> alberto: xpath can fit on rdql

10:05:55 <nmg> andys: generating webpages from rdf is an important (future) use case

10:06:10 <nmg> arjonh: some work from CWI on this, augmenting XSLT

10:06:45 <jeen> that work is part of the Cuypers project

10:07:24 <nmg> dajobe: graph stylesheet proposals as well (GSS)

10:08:04 <nmg> dajobe: query over XML in literals using XPath, in addition to making queries look 'XPath friendly'

10:08:15 <AndyS>http://homepages.cwi.nl/~media/cuypers/

10:08:19 <jeen> ta

10:09:12 <nmg> andys: different query syntaxes support differnet usecases (in response to comment from zool)

10:10:04 <dirkx> And I guess an implementors lesson is - be careful with the special chars <, ?, # which are hard to escape in URI's or carry certain semantics outside the SemWeb world

10:10:11 <nmg> andys: path expressions subset of graph matching, syntaxes for each of these uses

10:10:38 <nmg> dajobe: XML syntax not primary goal, cf. XPath/XQuery

10:11:03 <nmg> dajobe: again, compositionality (RDF output from queries)

10:11:12 <AndyS> XML syntax for XQuery (not supporrted by Galax) : http://www.w3.org/TR/xqueryx

10:11:24 <nmg> dajobe: modularity an issue too

10:11:51 <nmg> swh: if native language is acceptable, can translate other syntaxes into it

10:12:42 <nmg> libby: what we did for usecases - small subset of functionality in rdf, then map to specific syntaxes

10:13:11 <nmg> swh: difficult bits - substrings matching, quads...

10:14:13 <nmg> dirkx: first step in rdql often good enough, later move to more expressive languages

10:14:39 <nmg> dirkx: 80% of problem with 20% (rdql)

10:15:12 <nmg> andys: compactness of queries, wrt to namespace declarations

10:16:18 <nmg> swh: defining standard nss helps here

10:16:30 <nmg> dirkx: or add level of indirection

10:16:44 <nmg> swh: stateful protocol to set these things up in advance?

10:17:28 <swh> [not serious suggestion]

10:17:33 <dirkx> :-)

10:17:35 <nmg> :)

10:17:44 <AndyS> dirkx: Have reference to apoplication profiles which

10:17:55 <AndyS> have sets of common prefixes

10:18:43 <nmg> (discussion of changes to namespaces - dc given as example of one which has)

10:19:11 <nmg> dajobe: contexts and grouping in queries - is this imprtant for query languages?

10:19:29 <nmg> andys: shouldn't be a query-only solution

10:19:38 <dirkx> Applications MAY define certain namespaces but MUST override those when they are re-defined in the USING block.

10:19:53 <nmg> libby: queries over multiple models?

10:21:11 <nmg> alberto: fourth component in triple (quad) may be against rdf model, but it is useful

10:21:24 <nmg> swh: just a way of collecting triples

10:22:21 <alberto> are SQL views outside the original SQL model? :)

10:22:24 <dirkx> Note to self: Also discuss return set format: RDF/triples, a table, defined at query time, negotiable.

10:23:24 <alberto> I mean, as soon as you move down to real-world data sets and application you need to find/make compromises to make your software working

10:23:52 <nmg> (discussion about use of contexts in queries, 3store as example, scribe fails to capture what he said himself)

10:24:32 <nmg> dajobe: need use cases for these to give a basis for discussion about what contexts are in the context of queries

10:25:24 <nmg> arjohn: needs not be in query itself, but in context' of query

10:26:19 * AndyS agrees with dirk's suggestion

10:29:36 <nmg> (again, more discussion about nature of contexts in the 3store view - as resources corresponding to the (rdf/xml) files in which triples appear - that the scribe fails to properly record)

10:30:20 <nmg> dajobe: relation between querying and inferencing - "evaluate this query assuming RDFS semantics"

10:31:29 <nmg> dajobe,dirkx: a priori (service) description of capabilities of query engines

10:32:06 <nmg> dirkx: commonality between return formats - table of bindings versus graph

10:32:16 <nmg> jeen: resultset format has been defined

10:32:41 <AndyS>http://www.w3.org/2003/03/rdfqr-tests/recording-query-results.html

10:32:45 <nmg> dirkx: future interoperability wrt soap/wsdl?

10:32:52 <nmg> thanks, andys

10:33:43 <nmg> dirkx: lessons to be learned from odbc/jdbc

10:34:27 <nmg> andys, could you list those options for return formats here?

10:34:59 <dirkx> Main ODBC/JDBC nightmare; Its an API - not a protoocl; so your -client- needs to have libraries for each vendor you talk to. And your firewall needs to understand proprietary protocols.

10:35:21 <AndyS> Returns of queries

10:35:21 <AndyS> 1/ single subgraph

10:35:21 <AndyS> 2/ results

10:35:21 <AndyS> 3/ result set (2 in RDF)

10:35:21 <AndyS> 4/ template (c.f. SeRQL)

10:35:22 <AndyS> 5/ sequence of graphlets

10:35:24 <AndyS> Returns of queries

10:35:26 <AndyS> 1/ single subgraph

10:35:28 <AndyS> 2/ results

10:35:30 <AndyS> 3/ result set (2 in RDF)

10:35:32 <AndyS> 4/ template (c.f. SeRQL)

10:35:34 <AndyS> 5/ sequence of graphlets

10:35:36 <AndyS> Returns of queries

10:35:38 * AndyS has cut and paster error

10:36:20 <nmg> dajobe: access protocols

10:36:36 <nmg> andys: semantic web server written by graham moore - soap interface to rdf store

10:36:52 <nmg> andys: addresses how to access large rdf stores remotely

10:37:01 <dirkx> 2: results: driven by the select (?foo,?bar) and in that order - or 'declared' in a header prefix of the reply..

10:37:05 <nmg> andys: query is natural paradigm for accessing

10:37:09 <arjohn>http://www.w3.org/Submission/2003/SUBM-rdf-netapi-20031002/

10:37:55 <nmg> andys: rdf netapi submitted to w3c

10:38:25 <nmg> andys: query language is triple with holes in

10:38:37 <nmg> andys: maps onto existing toolkits

10:41:13 <nmg> zool: service description issues wrt query languages

10:41:43 <nmg> andys: different interfaces for different query languages?

10:45:00 <jeen> nmg: marta sabou has been working on web service descriptions of things like Sesame

10:45:58 <jeen> (paper about it on ISWC'03)

10:48:31 <nmg> (service discovery, brokerage, matchmaking, service choreography and composition)

10:49:57 <arjohn> Paper by Marta c.s.: http://www.cs.vu.nl/~marta/papers/iswc_paper56.pdf

10:51:52 <nmg> (semantic web services - DAML Services (-> OWL-S), SWSI (Semantic Web Services Initiative?))

10:53:17 <nmg> andys: jim hendler's message on rdf query, focussed query wg to reduce barrier to providing access to sw data

10:54:06 <nmg> andys: straw poll on interest in wg on access protocols?

10:54:45 <nmg> dirkx: syntax of query

10:55:02 <alberto> we are definitively interested also in access protocols - but something easy/small to implement i.e. DNS like

10:55:52 <nmg> andys: reqs for language important, since some features may present implementation issues (< constraints on integers, eg)

10:57:48 <dirkx> Next trains: 04, 16, 28, 34, 46 and 58

12:08:14 * zool volunteers

12:08:30 <zool> dajobe: what kind of sw related web serviecs might we want

12:08:45 <zool> and what kind of protcols they might use - looking up to OWL-S etc

12:08:54 <zool> mars needs use cases

12:09:07 <zool> ontology mapping...

12:09:33 <zool> (mapping translation inside an ontomatic sort of thing)

12:10:01 * zool wonders what use it all is

12:10:10 <zool> transform the data or translate the query

12:10:21 <zool> (arjohn)

12:10:43 <zool> jeen describes something that sounds like p2p negotiation between ontologies

12:10:56 <zool> "mapping the terms in the query to terms in your own framework"

12:11:21 <zool> thesaurus services

12:11:39 <zool> multilingual concept maps - fuzzy

12:11:59 <zool> similarly with classification schemes

12:12:34 <zool> DW: query expanders, e.g. oil spill gives you subtypes which add more properties

12:13:03 <zool> request-reply interaction... an interactive reasoning process

12:13:12 <zool> (is that either or)

12:13:51 <zool> dajobe: a reasoning service

12:14:14 <zool> like jenas plugin reasoner api - expose each one as a web service

12:14:21 <zool> rules engines, trust, up the stack

12:14:26 <zool> or not at all

12:14:57 <zool> (you'd need to have trust in all these inference engines like in aggregators)

12:15:29 <zool> making up hypothetical web services

12:15:55 <zool> DW: a 'trust expander' a common kind of reasoner in industrial banking apps

12:16:05 <zool> (like credit refernce expert systems?)

12:16:22 <zool> and business rules related stuff

12:17:05 <zool> auditing

12:17:38 <zool> dajobe - library service models or at least component models

12:17:49 <zool> 'wandering round a remote conceptual map' service

12:18:14 <zool> frank - remote 'concept explosion' services

12:18:25 <zool> pathfinders

12:18:41 <zool> (but couldnt that be also subsumed in a QL as dajobe is now pointing out)

12:19:07 <zool> frank - including rdfs semantics in pathfinding - sounds more like the prolog appserver

12:19:26 <zool> steve - akt OKBC/WS work

12:19:45 <zool> effetcively dropped now in favour of sending RDQL

12:20:11 <zool> thats a trend that's interesting to note, says dajobe

12:20:44 <zool> arjohn mentions the sesame client library

12:21:10 <zool> visualisation services

12:21:17 <zool> dajobe thinks this is out of our terrain

12:22:19 <zool> arguments over naviagting graphs from ontologies

12:22:26 <zool> is this something users want access to

12:22:50 <zool> users are keen on using the browsing software in 3store

12:23:07 * zool keen to steal this browsing software

12:25:14 <zool>http://triplestore.aktors.org

12:25:32 <zool> oh it's a frame-based (html) browser

12:26:08 <zool> shows co-referent sameAs instances at the top, with the union of all their properties

12:26:15 <zool> extract provenance

12:28:14 <zool> dajobe: "there are some times when you do want to look at the graph"

12:28:49 <libby> similar: brownsauce: http://brownsauce.sourceforge.net/

12:29:14 <libby> seealso foafnaut: http://www.foafnaut.org

12:30:14 * libby has some RDF 'webservices'

12:30:29 <libby> !nearby bristol,0.2

12:31:06 <libby> hm

12:31:11 <libby> !pic dirk

12:31:19 <whwhwhwh> Dirk-Willem van Gulik http://www.apache.org/images/asf_logo.gif

12:31:21 <zool> steve: not throwing around rgaphs but references to them inside of 3store

12:31:23 <zool> yay

12:31:44 <zool> passing around the uri of a store and uri of a concept

12:31:52 <zool> "sending service A to look at service B"

12:31:55 <dirkx> :-) voiled

12:31:58 <libby> !nearto brisghton,0.2

12:31:58 <whwhwhwh> no results found, sorry

12:32:02 <libby> !nearto brighton,0.2

12:32:02 <whwhwhwh> -0.15 51 Mid Sussex United Kingdom

12:32:02 <whwhwhwh> -0.17 50.83 Brighton United Kingdom

12:32:10 <zool> queries with triggers to take another request

12:32:22 <zool> interconnected services in semiautomatic chains

12:32:39 <zool> pub/sub for a queryable aggregator

12:32:56 <zool> (send a query, get new result sets when they drop into the slots)

12:33:29 <zool> asynchronous messaging

12:33:34 <libby> !wn query

12:33:35 <whwhwhwh> an instance of questioning; "there was a question about my training"; "we made inquiries of all those who were present"

12:33:37 <zool> waiting especially for reasoners

12:34:05 <zool> another use case, monitoring frequently updating sources

12:35:55 <libby>http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/reports/dissemination_plan_2/

12:36:07 <dirkx> Nay - how about that list.... :-)

12:36:10 <libby> # Internet, Web and Open Source developer communities

12:36:14 <libby> darn

12:36:20 <dirkx> Ta

12:36:27 <dirkx> Now all we need is a pen.

12:36:29 <libby> # Internet, Web and Open Source developer communities # Academic and Research Community # Content and Tool Producers # Industry and Commerce

12:36:33 <libby> one or more of those.

12:36:36 <eikeon> :)

12:36:47 <libby> thanks very much and sorry to be a nuisance!

12:38:20 <zool> stabnards for WS descriptions

12:38:32 <zool> even simple ones to do with use of utf8 etc

12:39:20 <zool> dajobe on language agnosticism and impossiblity of giving good advice

12:39:30 <zool> pointing people at web services might help

12:39:44 <zool> jeen - do we need a common underlying API for the tools

12:39:54 <zool> or are the abstractions higher up

12:40:22 <zool> overlapping and inter-seeding between jena, sesame etc

12:40:59 <zool> jena gives the impression of activity, sesame has more mature schema support

12:41:08 <zool> (dajobe)

12:41:30 <zool> kaon [sp?] switched to sesame

12:42:17 <zool> DW/frank, this seems to be an argument for a common abstraction layer

12:42:24 <zool> whether that's at the model interface

12:42:38 <zool> or at a http one...

12:43:11 <zool> jeen: you want to be able to run everything local and standalone.; this argues against a common interface being http based

12:43:52 <zool> DW: "you are already postulating there there is a common language style API... which could also function over a netwrok" : ideally, both

12:44:42 <zool> arjohn: SOAP, RMI and HTTP supported; the latter the most lightweight

12:44:54 <zool> ('less marshalling and unmarshalling'- dajobe)

12:44:56 <zool> we like http

12:45:33 * libby loves http

12:45:46 <swh> yay http

12:45:49 <libby> !wn sesame

12:45:49 <whwhwhwh> East Indian annual erect herb; source of sesame seed or benniseed and sesame oil

12:45:55 <libby> !wn sesame-2

12:45:55 <whwhwhwh> no results found, sorry

12:46:15 <dirkx> Dirks lovs http so much that there is a bit of despair creeping in...

12:46:30 <libby> aw

12:47:00 <zool> dajobe talking abotu similar cross-lang API

12:47:19 <zool> the core spec is basically sitting in this room

12:47:29 <dirkx> Get-if-Modified, Byterange, 30x redirect, Keep-Alive, Pragma: close, E-Tag, Accept header - and all of a sudden http is stateful and things like firewalls, proxies and content delivery netweork start fiddling with your payload en-route.

12:47:38 <zool> but too much cross-language consistency isn't a fruitful expectation suggests jan

12:48:31 <zool> overengineering in the DOM api a cautionary lesson - daniel / arjohn

12:49:33 <zool> essential simplicity of RDF / divergence of different peoples data manipulation extensions

12:49:51 <zool> sesame+jena some api convergence in motion

12:50:22 <zool> isn't it easy to emulate the one on top of the other, suggests jan cheerfullly

12:50:48 <zool> not just API mapping but translation between object types in the respective APIs

12:51:29 <zool> "some sort of graph algebra", common modelling of data perhaps

12:51:34 <zool> inside out

12:52:17 <zool> most of the APIs are all triple-y says dajobe

12:52:38 <zool> also a node-centric approach, walking along the arcs, rather than between the conceptual triples

12:53:34 <zool> graph pathfinding traversal in jena - sesame ppl would like it to be in a separate package - perhaps both could slowly modularise towards fusion

12:53:57 <zool> can you get partial graphs from a node oriented API asks dajobe

12:54:35 <zool> after you add the first node you have to connect new ones with an arc to something

12:54:46 <zool> 3store only does triples, redland does both

12:55:01 <zool> "where is that node, it should be in a graph"

12:55:37 <zool> steve: a sideeffect of context is to cause the model to have nodes that arent in the graph, momentarily

12:56:26 <zool> jena's OWL api using the triple API...

12:56:47 <zool> jeen in planning to implement this in sesame rsn

12:57:24 <jeen> that's Sean Bechhofer's OWL api, not Jena's.

12:57:33 <zool> ah okay sorry

12:57:38 <jeen> np :)

12:58:00 <zool> nmg pulls a funny face

12:58:29 <nmg> I did?

12:58:57 <zool> arjohn: generating statements upon statements, or geenrating rdf/xml data and importing it

12:59:10 <zool> or both

12:59:40 <zool> which of these tactics should we recommend asks dajobe - the triple api seems intuitive but is easy to get lost in

13:01:05 <zool> oops

13:01:29 <zool> jeen talks about people finding migration to and fro jena pretty straightforward

13:02:18 <zool> frank wants to define the shape of our fuzzy cloud of knowledge currently assembled

13:03:02 * zool doesnt write down what dajobe just said

13:03:23 <zool> kevin wants portability per store

13:03:41 <zool> debate tending towards complete standardisation or complete translatability

13:04:07 <zool> also code maturity / bitrot concerns (DW)

13:04:35 <zool> "this is a healthy ecosystem"

13:04:55 <dirkx> Healthy ecosystem - or are they still duking it out and should I wait a wee bit longer for things to stabilize. (And be 'safe').

13:05:11 <zool> arjohn: modularisation of code, model, parser, storage, query, suggesting

13:05:42 <zool> i suppose we are still duking it out

13:06:00 <zool> we might be running out of things to say

13:06:14 <libby> Jan grant's framework: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/reports/rdf_api_comparison_report/

13:06:36 <zool> comparative overview would be interesting

13:07:06 <zool> describing web services in daml-s or owl-s again

13:25:03 <dirkx-apache-org> dirkx-apache-org is now known as dirkx

13:25:15 <jeen> marta: trying to identify common operations in several RDF tool APIs

13:25:30 <jeen> marta: four basic types of operations

13:25:53 <jeen> query, remove, retrieve, add

13:27:04 <jeen> comparison visualization of overlap between Jena, Sesame, KAON

13:34:29 <jeen> gesundheit

13:35:48 <dajobe-ibook>http://www.cs.vu.nl/~marta/aaai/aaai_sabou.pdf

13:36:12 <eikeon_> eikeon_ is now known as eikeon

13:36:36 <zool_> zool_ is now known as zool

13:38:16 <zool> OWL is now in PR we are hearing

13:38:28 <zool> "target date is dec 9"

13:38:31 <zool> rdf core is soon

13:49:05 <zool> w3 gossip that i'm too lazy to transcribe

13:49:18 <nmg> :)

13:49:19 <zool> what's missing, what's next, esp in re SWAD

13:49:37 <zool> more workshops - i10n and accessibility

13:49:49 <zool> xml-europe topic maps bake-off

13:50:20 <zool> more calendaring work driven by libby

13:50:26 <zool> leading up to www2004

13:52:06 <libby> !pic jack

13:52:09 <whwhwhwh> Jack Letourneau http://eigengrau.com/images/jack-feb2003.jpg

13:52:10 <whwhwhwh> Jack Rusher http://swordfish.rdfweb.org/photos/2003/11/13/2003-11-13-Images/9.jpg

13:54:10 <libby> # Internet, Web and Open Source developer communities # Academic and Research Community # Content and Tool Producers # Industry and Commerce

13:56:41 <libby> !pic steve harris

13:56:43 <whwhwhwh> Steve Harris http://swordfish.rdfweb.org/photos/2003/11/14/2003-11-14-Images/11.jpg

13:56:51 <libby> !pic lisa

13:56:54 <whwhwhwh> Lisa Pease http://deanlink.deanforamerica.com/userImg/main.303.JPG

13:56:55 <whwhwhwh> Lisa Koonts http://swordfish.rdfweb.org/photos/2003/11/14/2003-11-14-Images/14.jpg

13:56:56 <whwhwhwh> Lisa Seeman http://www.w3.org/People/Jacobs/2000/09/bristol/pdrm0275.jpg

14:11:48 <dajobe-ibook> -- end of workshop --

14:18:20 <dajobe-ibook> see http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/events/20031113-storage/ for reports in about a month

Previous day Thursday 2003-11-13

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