HCLSIG/Meetings/2009-09-17 Conference Call

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Conference Details

  • Date of Call: Thursday September 17, 2009
  • Time of Call: 11:00am Eastern Daylight Time (EDT), 16:00 British Summer Time (BST), 17:00 Central European Time (CET)
  • Dial-In #: +1.617.761.6200 (Cambridge, MA)
  • Dial-In #: +33.4.89.06.34.99 (Nice, France)
  • Dial-In #: +44.117.370.6152 (Bristol, UK)
  • Participant Access Code: 4257 ("HCLS").
  • IRC Channel: irc.w3.org port 6665 channel #HCLS (see W3C IRC page for details, or see Web IRC)
  • Duration: ~1h
  • Convener: Scott, Susie
  • Scribe: TBD

Agenda

Minutes

Attendees: Julia, Matthias, Joanne, Eric, Helen, Susie, Sandro

Apologies: Scott, Colin

<RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-hcls-irc

<ericP> Zakim, this is hcls

<Zakim> hcls matches both SW_HCLS(TransMed)11:00AM and SW_HCLS()11:00AM, ericP

<ericP> Zakim, this is sw_hcls

<Zakim> sw_hcls matches both SW_HCLS(TransMed)11:00AM and SW_HCLS()11:00AM, ericP

<ericP> uh oh

<ericP> Zakim, this is SW_HCLS()

<Zakim> ok, ericP; that matches SW_HCLS()11:00AM

<Zakim> + +1.617.993.aabb

<ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-mom

<Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made

<Zakim> +EricP

<matthias_samwald1> Linked Data Camp Vienna (Nov 30. - Dec 1.): http://www.meetup.com/Linked-Data-Camp/

<ericP> Zakim, please dial sandro

<Zakim> I am sorry, ericP; I do not know a number for sandro

<Susie> Sandro - are you here?

  • ** jluciano [ad30d086@128.30.52.43] has joined #hcls

<sandro> yes, Susie

  • ** jluciano [ad30d086@128.30.52.43] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC]

<Susie> Zakim, pick a scribe

<Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ??P2

<Zakim> +Sandro

<Susie> Zakim, pick a scribe

<Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose EricP

  • ** jluciano [ad30d086@128.30.52.43] has joined #hcls

<ericP> scibenick: ericP

<ericP> meeting: HCLS

<Zakim> +Helen_Chen

<sandro> http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/0903-rif

<sandro> zakim, who is here?

<Zakim> On the phone I see +1.781.839.aaaa, Susie, ??P2, +1.617.993.aabb, EricP, Sandro, Helen_Chen

<Zakim> On IRC I see jluciano, RRSAgent, Julia_Kozlovsky, Susie, matthias_samwald1, sandro, Zakim, Cloud, ericP

<sandro> http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/0903-rif/Overview.html#(2)

<ericP> topic: Rule Interchange Format [Sandro Hawke]

<ericP> -> http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/0903-rif Rule Interchange Format (RIF)

<ericP> [slide 2: So Many Rules Systems]

<ericP> [slide 4: Business Rules Perspective]

<ericP> sandro: while vendors may like customer lock-in, customers really don't

<ericP> ... RIF good for bridging between rules systems

<ericP> [slide 6: The Plan]

<ericP> sandro: mode of use is that someone using iLog menu-selects save-as-rif

  • ** bbalsa [d57234b5@64.62.228.82] has joined #HCLS

<ericP> ... not expected to be edited by humans

<ericP> there's a basic bifercation between if-then rules and 1st-order-logic rules

<ericP> ... most extensions work with one or the other

<ericP> [slide 8: The people evolved]

<ericP> joanne: re: submissions (line 2), which emerged?

<ericP> sandro: didn't really follow any of them. created a new "language"

<ericP> ... some have characterized the 1st year as "no one would let us adopt someone else's design"

<ericP> sandro: we got most rules vendors/orgs to join

<ericP> ... OMG has a different product. they produce a UML diagram (simplified view)

<ericP> ... the entire OMG active group is in our WG

<ericP> [slide 10: RIF: XML Syntax for Rules]

<ericP> sandro: you could consider a group a rule set

<ericP> ... this XML is fully striped (a la RDF)

<ericP> ... there are a few places (e.g. datatypes on leaves) where RIF isn't parsable as RDF/XML

<ericP> ... however a trivial XSLT could translate RIF to RDF (unchecked assertion)

<ericP> sandro: presentation syntax favors prolog as it uses the form THEN := AND (IF 1) (IF 2)

<ericP> sandro: (re: slide 11 BLD Presentation Syntax), this is not a presentation *calleed* BLD, but the presentation syntax used in the BLD document

<ericP> ... all three of these examples in the talk are in BLD

<ericP> ... if we added e.g. negation we'd be in a different dialect

  • ** matthias_samwald [matthias@131.130.111.27] has joined #hcls

<sandro> http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/0903-rif/Overview.html#(13)

<ericP> [slide 13: A Family of Dialects]

<Zakim> -Helen_Chen

<Zakim> +??P7

<Zakim> -??P2

<matthias_samwald> Zakim, ??P7 im matthias_samwald

<Zakim> I don't understand '??P7 im matthias_samwald', matthias_samwald

<ericP> Julia_Kozlovsky: slide 11 says "reject". i would have thought that would be another dialect

<matthias_samwald> Zakim, ??P7 is matthias_samwald

<Zakim> +matthias_samwald; got it

<ericP> sandro: that's an assertion of rejection

  • ** matthias_samwald1 [matthias@131.130.111.27] has quit [Ping timeout]

<ericP> s/slide 11 says/slides 11 and 12 say/

<ericP> sandro: the "reject" assertion implies that the person is thinking of this as production rules, but renaming to "to-be-rejected" would clarify that just a conclusion

<ericP> [slide 14: Use Case: Vocabulary Mapping]

<ericP> sandro: voila a set of FOAF rules

<ericP> ... FOAF has three ways to represent names

<ericP> ... you can expliut all three by adding rules

<ericP> ... RIF can do things like string-join

<ericP> sandro: you can assert data in one vocab, add data in another vocab, and query in a third vocab

<ericP> ... note that these mapping use cases where simple enough to be easily expressed in XPath functions

<ericP> Julia_Kozlovsky: what would run these rules in real life?

<ericP> sandro: if you wrote them in XML, how would you mix them into your SPARQL system?

<ericP> ... the standard doesn't speak to that much

<ericP> ... we talk about importing

<ericP> ... would expect that at the UI level. user says "here's the data, here are the rules, here is my query"

<ericP> Julia_Kozlovsky: looks great in theory, but who is doing this?

<ericP> ericP: a vendor has to promise RIF rules and SPARQL query

<ericP> sandro: dave reynolds will probably implement RIF in Jena

<ericP> ... chimezie intends to implement it

<ericP> ... iLog also promised

<ericP> ... Oracle has made no promise about how long it will take to filter over to the database side

<ericP> ... we haven't formally [W3C process] said that RIF is ready to impelement

<ericP> Julia_Kozlovsky: thanks. would good to get a picture of the different layers

<ericP> sandro: e.g. cwm doesn't have native RDFS/OWL support, but you can write a lot of OWL rules like this [slide 15]

<ericP> ... OWLRL is a fragement which is entirely expressible in Rules

<ericP> ... effectively expressible in RIF Core, module some nuances

<ericP> ericP: if property p has range (objects are of type) c, and some x has a p of y, then that y is of type c

<sandro> p == hasType, c=DomesticAnimal

<ericP> sandro: e.g. :hasPet rdfs:range :domesticAnimal AND :Sandro :hasPet :Fido THEN :Fido rdf:type :domesticAnimal

<ericP> [sldie 16: Syntactic Features]

<sandro> p(x,y,z)

<sandro> { sandro hasPet fido }

<sandro> triple( sandro, hasPet, fido )

<sandro> hasPat(sandro, fido) NO

<sandro> jluciano, ping

  • ericP ping jluciano

<jluciano> pong (it (my IRC window) was under the slides!) Thanks!

<ericP> sandro: most of XPath functions plus e.g. string2uri

<ericP> ... hope to enter CR soon, spec stable, but not a lot of impelementations

<ericP> RRSAgent, please draft minutes

<RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-hcls-minutes.html ericP

<ericP> RRSAgent, please make log world-visible

<RRSAgent> I have made the request, ericP

<Zakim> -Susie

<Zakim> - +1.617.993.aabb

<Zakim> - +1.781.839.aaaa

<jluciano> Sandro, that was great. Thank you!

  • ** matthias_samwald left #hcls []