Chatlog 2011-10-31

From W3C eGovernment Wiki
Jump to: navigation, search

See CommonScribe Control Panel, original RRSAgent log and preview nicely formatted version.

Please justify/explain all edits to this page, in your "edit summary" text.

<sandro> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/F2F4
<sandro> Guest: Jason (jkiss) Kiss
<sandro> Guest: Mark Crawford
<sandro> Guest: Kevin Simkins
<sandro> Guest: Bernard Gidon
<sandro> Guest: Virginie Galindo
<sandro> Guest: Chingteng Hsiao
<sandro> Guest: Cheng Hung
#<sandro> irconly: gdick, somnath
<sandro> Present: Dave_McAllister, Hadley_Beeman, Jeanne_Holm, John_Erickson, Phil_Archer,  Yosuke_Funahashi
<sandro> Remote: Sandro_Hawke, Paola Di Maio, Bernadette Hyland, Gannon Dick, Somnath Chandra, josema, bhandspicker
12:53:10 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-egov-irc
12:53:21 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/F2F4
12:53:45 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: eGov all-day meeting Oct 31, Nov 1 -- http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/F2F4
12:54:02 <Paola> Paola has joined #egov
12:54:41 <Paola> greets!
13:26:07 <Eyal_Sela-IL> Eyal_Sela-IL has joined #egov
13:49:32 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #egov
13:49:36 <sandro> zakim, this will be egov
15:36:29 <Raghu> Raghu has joined #egov
15:44:28 <gdick> gdick has joined #eGov
15:45:49 <PhilA2> PhilA2 has joined #egov
15:47:09 <davemc> davemc has joined #egov
15:54:26 <sandro> zakim, this will be egov
15:54:26 <Zakim> ok, sandro; I see SW_e-Gov(eGovIG)11:00AM scheduled to start 54 minutes ago
15:54:34 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
15:54:34 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-egov-irc#T15-54-34
15:54:41 <sandro> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:58:04 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: eGov all-day meeting Oct 31, Nov 1 -- http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/F2F4 Conf Code 346844
15:58:21 <sandro> grrr. the conference code is egovIG not egov.
15:58:59 <jkiss> jkiss has joined #egov
15:59:02 <HadleyBeeman> HadleyBeeman has joined #egov
15:59:29 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:59:42 <Jeanne_> Jeanne_ has joined #egov
16:01:11 <yosuke> yosuke has joined #egov
16:02:44 <sandro> PhilA, there's a speakerphone there and you'll be dialing in?
16:02:52 <sandro> (or having Zakim dial out)
16:03:01 <sandro> great.  :)
16:03:06 <HadleyBeeman> (And good morning, by the way!)
16:03:16 <sandro> Good morning, Hadley  :)
16:03:35 <sandro> Are y'all in your best halloween costumes?   
16:03:49 <HadleyBeeman> I was told to dress up as a Brit who doesn't do Halloween costumes :)
16:04:02 <davemc> yes, I'm pretending to be an Adobe employee
16:04:04 <sandro> And I bet you did a good job.
16:04:12 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_ was kind enough to bring is all candy though.  It does feel festive.
16:04:29 <Zakim> +tpac
16:04:43 <davemc> yep on the candy.  Heath bars, the second most addictive candy in the world
16:04:50 <gdick> Dressed up as a snow shoveler, Sandro ?
16:05:07 <sandro> :-)   gdick        only a few inches here.
16:05:30 <Jeanne_> I'll have to send candy bars to everyone who's on virtually--happy halloween!
16:05:58 <olyerickson> olyerickson has joined #egov
16:06:09 <sandro> Meeting: eGov IG F2F4 Day 1
16:06:13 <sandro> Chair: Jeanne Holm
16:06:14 <olyerickson> I'm on....
16:06:27 <PhilA> Zakim, please welcome olyerickson he had to work hard to get here
16:06:27 <Zakim> I don't understand you, PhilA
16:06:48 <Zakim> +bhyland
16:07:12 <olyerickson> Good Afternoon @bhyland
16:09:14 <somnath> somnath has joined #egov
16:09:43 <Zakim> + +1.410.975.aaaa
16:11:33 <Paola> good people, can you tell how long this session should last? is it a couple o hrs or all day?
16:11:36 <bhyland> zakim, who is speaking?
16:11:47 <Zakim> bhyland, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
16:12:01 <sandro> Paola, all day.    http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/F2F4
16:12:09 <Paola> ok rephraseL zakim,  can you tell how long this session should last? is it a couple o hrs or all day?
16:12:28 <sandro> Topic: Intros
16:12:34 <Paola> thanks s
16:12:44 <bhyland> @Paola, is goes from 9:00 AM US PST until 17:00
16:12:46 <sandro> for the minutes, Paola, what's your name?
16:12:57 <Paola> Paola Di Maio 
16:13:26 <sandro> right, of course, Paola   :-)
16:13:28 <Paola> I will be around an hour or so
16:13:33 <PhilA> Scribe duties
16:13:38 <MoZ> MoZ has joined #egov
16:14:37 <bhyland> Sandro: Audio has some feedback / static.  Could that be due to where the speakers are physically located.  I can hear Phil, Jeanne OK
16:14:54 <sandro> s/:/,/
16:14:58 <bhyland> But there is static when they speak.
16:15:20 <sandro> bhyland, Yeah ..  I expect it's the just the hotel air handlers, but we can ask them to try to adjust things.
16:15:24 <PhilA> General conversation about how eGovIG came about
16:16:04 <PhilA> HadleyBeeman: gives her elevator/how I explain it to my mum and dad pitch
16:16:29 <Zakim> - +1.410.975.aaaa
16:16:51 <PhilA> davemc: tries to think who was in the egov mark I
16:17:12 <PhilA> Jeanne: begins the meeting
16:17:24 <PhilA> scribe: PhilA
16:17:40 <PhilA> JH: WE have 2 days with a loosely structured agenda
16:17:57 <PhilA> JH: I get the sense of what a lot of people want to happen in these 2 days
16:18:05 <PhilA> ... sharing and community building is important
16:18:16 <PhilA> ... the World bank and Warsaw event are important
16:18:20 <PhilA> ... code is important
16:18:24 <PhilA> ... licences are important
16:18:58 <PhilA> ... we're not a standards body. Good that bhyland is here as GLD WG  co-chair
16:19:16 <sandro> zakim, IPcaller is Paola
16:19:16 <Zakim> +Paola; got it
16:19:23 <PhilA> JH: we can be advocates for that we believe in
16:19:35 <PhilA> ... someone said they really wanted to have projects based on this group
16:19:39 <Paola> she is speaking very fast
16:20:00 <Paola> Jeanne, a bit louder and a touch slower if possible for remote :=_
16:20:02 <Paola> thanks
16:20:12 <PhilA> ... it makes sense to work together in projects
16:20:38 <PhilA> ... so I'll reiterate topics for the week - see wiki http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/F2F4
16:21:13 <PhilA> JH: has arrived with Lego bricks and hallowe'en treats
16:21:21 <olyerickson> olyerickson has joined #egov
16:21:26 <PhilA> ... tour de table
16:21:52 <PhilA> ... who are you. why are you here? what can you contribute? What's the biggest challenge you face
16:22:26 <PhilA> HadleyBeeman: I'm here as an IE. Open data lead at technology Strategy Board in the UK
16:22:37 <PhilA> ... here to avoid having working everything out for ourselves
16:22:43 <sandro> bhyland, so far IRC suggests its like this: http://www.w3.org/egov/IG/meeting/2011-10-31
16:22:48 <Jeanne_> Jeanne_ has joined #egov
16:22:52 <PhilA> ... career has covered lots of the subjects on the agenda
16:23:11 <PhilA> ... interested in the non-tech messaging, connecting citizens, govt etc.
16:23:30 <PhilA> Jeanne_:  I'm evangelist for open data at data.gov. Prof at UCLA etc.
16:23:39 <PhilA> Jeanne_:  excited about building the community
16:23:48 <HadleyBeeman> Bhyland, there are 8 of us in the room
16:24:12 <PhilA> Jeanne_: hoping to bring experiences of good and bad ideas
16:24:24 <PhilA> davemc: I'm Dave McAllister from Adobe
16:24:30 <PhilA> ... was part of the original eGov IG
16:24:43 <PhilA> ... we ended up with statememts of what the issues
16:25:31 <PhilA> ... want to bring an understanding of the open communities. Licenses, IPR, make sure we explore the right avenue. Want to make sure that data has context and owndership and they're as important as the right to use the data
16:25:44 <Jeanne_> Dave McAllister is part of "open communities" and the open source.
16:25:45 <sandro> name of current speaker?
16:25:50 <PhilA> jkiss: from the NZ govt. Dept of internal affairs
16:25:55 <Jeanne_> Jason Kiss is speaking
16:25:56 <PhilA> jkiss:  is Jason Kiss
16:26:30 <bhyland> Current speaker is very hard to hear … far from mic??
16:26:33 <PhilA> Mark Crawford: from SAP here as an observer. Have persoanl interest
16:26:41 <davemc> hes far from mic
16:27:01 <PhilA> Mark Crawford has done a lot of work in this area
16:27:19 <PhilA> Yosuke Funahashi is on committe of japanese Govt
16:27:53 <PhilA> working on Web/TV devices and how they can deliver eGov
16:28:06 <PhilA> for example following events like the Tsunami
16:28:52 <PhilA> ... recently govt. set extra budget how to restructure Japanese local govt. systems using eGov tech
16:29:05 <Jeanne_> Phil Archer is speaking 
16:29:20 <olyerickson> PhilA is "not Sandro..." 
16:29:29 <Jeanne_> Phil is here in place of Sandro, who has been ill.  Works on eGov issues and will share today
16:29:31 <olyerickson> ... member of team
16:29:46 <somnath> q+
16:29:47 <dmcallis> dmcallis has joined #egov
16:29:54 <Jeanne_> Phil needs to be nice to Jason (pass him a candy bar)
16:30:00 <olyerickson> ... support Jeanne
16:30:04 <olyerickson> ... be face ofw3c
16:30:04 <olyerickson> ... duties: being v.v.nice to Jason
16:30:06 <Jeanne_> He's the face of the W3C 
16:30:13 <olyerickson> q?
16:30:47 <somnath> I am somnath working with Govt of India Can share Govt of India Experience on E-Gov
16:30:59 <PhilA> somnath: You wanted to talk?
16:31:06 <somnath> yes pl
16:31:23 <Jeanne_> Hang on somnath, to you in a moment
16:31:31 <PhilA> olyerickson: I'm John Ericson.Done lost of project management related to linking govbt data
16:31:32 <yosuke> yosuke has joined #egov
16:31:59 <sandro> somnath, are you only on IRC, or are you on the phone, too?
16:32:00 <PhilA> related to our LOGD portal, int giovt search application (has 500K+ data sets on it) plus other things we've done
16:32:27 <PhilA> olyerickson: Also in the GLD WG with George T and bhyland
16:32:38 <PhilA> ... go back to digital rights management from mid 90s
16:32:53 <somnath> on irc only
16:32:54 <PhilA> ... persistent interest in Web infratsture supporting rights in differnet perspectives
16:33:11 <PhilA> ... wants to attach provenance data
16:33:34 <PhilA> ... how do we improve the infrastructure to do participator government
16:33:44 <PhilA> Ack somnath
16:33:48 <PhilA> Somnath NOW
16:33:55 <Jeanne_> Somnath--did you have a question?
16:34:42 <somnath> Not right now but can share Govt of India E-Gov roll out experience and its challenges
16:34:55 <Jeanne_> Perfect!  Hadley will be leading that session!
16:35:06 <PhilA> sandro: Hi
16:35:21 <PhilA> I'm normally the Team Contact but not able to travel
16:35:45 <PhilA> sandro:  interests and background in linked data, done it for years. In GLD where I'm Team Contact too
16:36:04 <Paola> can you hear me
16:36:05 <PhilA> Paola: Hi I'm Paola di Milo
16:36:07 <PhilA> No
16:36:08 <Paola> muted
16:36:10 <PhilA> we can't hear you
16:36:20 <PhilA> I just guessed that what you;d say
16:36:35 <PhilA> Paola: I'm in the UK. I know a few of you
16:36:42 <PhilA> ... interested in systems, social systems
16:36:49 <PhilA> ... been looking at infrastructure
16:37:10 <PhilA> ... just come back from conf. in Germany launching a new institute in this area
16:37:26 <HadleyBeeman> My apologies, Paola— which org are you working with?
16:37:50 <PhilA> bhyland: Hi, I'm Bernadette Hyland. Have been working in linked data since about 2007 with LoC
16:37:53 <Zakim> + +1.847.699.aabb
16:37:57 <PhilA> ... work with gov primnting office
16:38:10 <PhilA> ... docs created by Congress go to 1200 libraries around the country and so on.
16:38:21 <PhilA> ... currently work with US EPA
16:38:28 <Paola> HadleyL I am with university of strathclyde for another couple of months til my contract finishes, but work freelance and have started own independent research institution ISTCS.org
16:38:43 <bhyland> www.w3.org/2011/gld/charter
16:38:46 <PhilA> ... work with George Thomas on the GLD WG
16:38:53 <HadleyBeeman> Paola Brilliant, thanks! :) I'm sorry we haven't run into each other in the UK.
16:39:05 <PhilA> bhyland: we have a 2 year charter. 39 members. >50% are non-US
16:39:20 <Paola> Hadley: I think we may have met briefly at OpenGov Camp in London 2010, I remember your voice
16:39:46 <PhilA> bhyland: Just back from Warsaw. Sorry I can't be in Santa Clara
16:40:00 <HadleyBeeman> Oh good, Paola. I'm sorry I didn't attach my memory of your face to your voice. :)
16:41:19 <PhilA> Kevin: I'm Kevin, in Chicago. Virtual world provider. I follow data.gov and support the work very much
16:41:29 <PhilA> somnath - can you introduce yourself?
16:41:30 <Jeanne_> Somnath, can you introduce yourself?
16:42:56 <Jeanne_> Kevin provides and works with 3D immersive virtual worlds (like Second Life, but many others)
16:43:06 <Jeanne_> He provides training and other scenarios
16:43:32 <PhilA> Jeanne_: Topic: how the meeting is going to work
16:43:42 <PhilA> Jeanne_: I want to capture people's ideas as they come in.
16:43:44 <PhilA> PhilA has left #egov
16:43:50 <olyerickson> olyerickson has joined #egov
16:43:57 <PhilA> PhilA has joined #egov
16:44:14 <PhilA> Gha! Shut my browser by mistake
16:44:17 <dmcallis> +1 on "what do we want to do?"
16:44:31 <olyerickson> Jeanne: Want to allow for braiinstorming, want to discuss things we want to do
16:44:42 <PhilA> Jeanne_: I want to do a couple of things in the room and then try and recreate those on the phone
16:44:48 <olyerickson> ... write down thoughts on blue-colored cards
16:45:44 <tlr> tlr has joined #egov
16:45:46 <PhilA> Jeanne_: If you're on the phone/IRC - can you please use the IRC to post notes to the meeting
16:46:13 <bhyland> How about BLUE CARD:
16:46:14 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_: Especially where those thoughts are tangential or off-topic (to not disrupt the conversation), put them on the wall to be collected later.
16:46:21 <PhilA> ... use all caps "CARD" and then write your idea
16:46:35 <PhilA> ... as in CARD: I'd like to talk about...
16:46:45 <bhyland> Does Jeanne plan to use different color cards? Or just blue?
16:47:33 <PhilA> PhilA: I have a yellow card
16:47:43 <PhilA> ... and I can see pink ones too
16:47:44 <bhyland> got it.
16:47:53 <bhyland> CARD it is.
16:51:34 <PhilA> PhilA: My slides are at http://www.w3.org/2011/Talks/TPAC/phila/intro.html#(1)
16:56:40 <PhilA> http://philarcher.org/diary/2011/20yearsofmlarchives/
16:57:14 <bhyland> That is great Phil - cool.
16:58:16 <PhilA> Jeanne_: This group was chartered first in 2008
16:58:47 <PhilA> dmcallis: when this group first formed, it was to identify how the Web can be used to make the work of govts more tranbsparent
16:59:02 <PhilA> ... how to we get govts to do this and how do we get citizens to respond
16:59:07 <PhilA> ... had a very active group
16:59:22 <PhilA> dmcallis: Linked deata was identified as being very important
16:59:48 <PhilA> dmcallis: there was a doc in June 2009 ? that talked about what needed to be done
17:00:09 <PhilA> ... originally talked about documents, social media, AV approaches
17:00:30 <olyerickson> Original W3G eGov charter (2009-2010) here: http://www.w3.org/2009/06/eGov/ig-charter
17:01:17 <gdick> gdick has joined #eGov
17:01:18 <PhilA> Jeanne_: you tried to avoid figuring out the one perfect solution...
17:02:01 <PhilA> dmcallis: I do work for Adobe ,-) the first set of docs said "we need docs to be able to be repurposed like PDF" - I had to take that out!
17:02:14 <PhilA> dmcallis: there were other things, like DRM etc
17:02:27 <PhilA> ... huge issues around suing RDF, Dublin Core
17:02:36 <PhilA> ... need to be careful not to condemn a technology
17:02:56 <PhilA> HadleyBeeman: we have a lot of trouble in UK with govt data published as Jpegs
17:03:20 <PhilA> dmcallis: most of the problems 3200-1 and 2 owns PDF, not Adobe
17:03:33 <olyerickson> q+
17:03:41 <PhilA> ... we should use the most appropriate tech
17:03:58 <PhilA> dmcallis: that was a big part of the first round. people saying "you should never use..."
17:04:00 <PhilA> ack olyerickson
17:04:09 <PhilA> olyerickson: I can only imagine the anguish you went through
17:04:44 <PhilA> olyerickson: how do we avoid boiling the ocean. Focussing on the problems - not imagine problems that are projections of how technologies can be used
17:05:00 <PhilA> ... current existence of the GLD WG is an example of your success. What else can we do
17:05:14 <bhyland> Clarification re: PDF - "PDF is an international standard, PDF 1.7 (ISO 32000-1)"
17:05:17 <yosuke> yosuke has joined #egov
17:05:50 <PhilA> dmcallis: the charter 1 - charter 2 cycle, we identified that we need to look at how we represent, say, a speech - but that's not fair a representation
17:06:03 <PhilA> ... social media now use soc media as a principal comm method
17:06:35 <PhilA> ... within this body, we represent what we think the citizens can best use
17:07:05 <PhilA> ... does the average person care that they can link real estate records to weather records. Some people do of course, but most don't and how do we connect those two?
17:07:36 <PhilA> ... LD became important because it's how you expose data. Risk is that it goes too far, i..e. takes commnets out of context
17:07:58 <PhilA> ... one of my topics is how what we do can represent the communities the gov is trying to reach
17:08:21 <PhilA> sandro: I didn't join until the point at which the 2nd charter was being worked ojn
17:08:31 <PhilA> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:08:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-egov-minutes.html PhilA
17:08:37 <dmcallis> the original doc is http://www.w3.org/TR/egov-improving/
17:09:00 <PhilA> Jeanne_: This group was re-chartered in June of this year. After the beginings of the GLD WG
17:09:14 <PhilA> ... that's going really fast and making progress
17:09:38 <PhilA> ... a lot of the conversations that we were having in the IG became non-conversations as the GLD WG was taking it on
17:09:52 <PhilA> ... therefore our group can work without singling out a tech or a solution
17:10:03 <PhilA> ... we had a variety of open discussions
17:10:10 <PhilA> ... we can make statements about things
17:10:21 <PhilA> ... we can partner with WGs if needs be
17:10:51 <PhilA> ... we want to move beyond the technologies. We have technologists, elected people, practictioners, academics
17:11:12 <PhilA> ... and we have folk from otehr standards bodies
17:11:26 <PhilA> Kevin: we have just recently had our Project Stargate
17:11:42 <PhilA> ... a trans communication between virutal worlds
17:11:56 <PhilA> ... new standards for networking and ??
17:12:22 <PhilA> ... for linking identities - we have new ways of doing that. Demos available from IEEE at Kevin
17:12:29 <dmcallis> I recall a project stargate from US gov on psychic phenom
17:12:35 <PhilA> Present+ Jeff Jaffe
17:12:57 <Jeanne_> That's Kevin Simkins talking with IEEE standards on virtual worlds
17:13:16 <PhilA> present+ Kevin Simkins
17:14:14 <PhilA> olyerickson: I'll provoke the soc media piece this afternoon
17:14:21 <PhilA> HadleyBeeman: I'll scribe that then
17:14:48 <PhilA> olyerickson: It would be great of Kevin could lead that but, by remote, can you be here?
17:15:32 <Jeanne_> CARD : Be sure to look broadly at social media in the discussion later today
17:16:13 <HadleyBeeman> CARD : can we discuss licensing in the social media discussion too? We have groups in UK gov who default to "All rights reserved" (erroneously) when publishing content on social networks.
17:16:57 <PhilA> Jeanne_: we have the folk that turn up to our meetings, we have the mailing list and we have the linkedin Group
17:17:05 <PhilA> Jeanne_: I'm approving 20 people a week
17:17:41 <Jeanne_> CARD :  Collect the resources of everyone's social media network
17:17:41 <PhilA> W3C linkedIn group is at http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=1800648&trk=myg_ugrp_ovr
17:18:08 <PhilA> Jeanne_: we all have some sort of social media presence eithger personally or professionally (or both)
17:18:26 <PhilA> Jeanne_: we should use that to reach new people
17:19:48 <PhilA> Jeanne_: Want to come out of these 2 days with a set of actions.
17:19:57 <PhilA> ... want to be able to use our wiki etc
17:20:04 <PhilA> ... aggressively
17:20:09 <PhilA> dmcallis: +1
17:20:59 <PhilA> Jeanne_: Let's go to the phone
17:21:16 <bhyland> No comments from me
17:21:16 <olyerickson> "here here, here..."
17:21:17 <PhilA> ... do you have any thoughts on the previous group, interaction with W3C, currente intent and charter?
17:21:25 <olyerickson> -1 to hmmming to vote
17:21:27 <olyerickson> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:21:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, Paola, tpac, bhyland, +1.847.699.aabb
17:21:32 <PhilA> bhyland? Paola?
17:21:39 <bhyland> Nothing more to add.
17:21:43 <dmcallis> I would like to see a discussion towards the end on what other sub groups are required
17:21:54 <olyerickson> Could "+1.847.699.aabb" please identify? 
17:22:12 <Jeanne_> CARD :  Dave McAllister: I would like to see a discussion towards the end on what other sub groups are required
17:22:20 <Paola> sorry was that a q
17:22:20 <bhyland> I had input into the eGov IG & GLD WG charters :-)
17:22:42 <PhilA> zakim, aabb is Kevin Simkins
17:22:42 <Zakim> I don't understand 'aabb is Kevin Simkins', PhilA
17:22:44 <Paola>  nothing to add, thanks 
17:22:50 <olyerickson> q?
17:23:12 <PhilA> zakim, aabb is Kevin Simkins
17:23:12 <Zakim> I don't understand 'aabb is Kevin Simkins', PhilA
17:24:03 <PhilA> Accessibility and social media switching around.
17:24:16 <PhilA> so we'll so accessibility this afternoon and soc media tomorrow morning
17:25:05 <olyerickson> +1 to break
17:25:33 <dmcallis> +1 break
17:25:51 <PhilA> Jeanne_: Break until 10:45
17:25:52 <Paola> thank you scribe
17:26:23 <Paola> gave a nice break you lucky people in California, catcha later
17:26:24 <Zakim> -Kevin_Simkins
17:26:29 <sandro> topic: Coffee Break
17:26:31 <Zakim> -bhyland
17:26:40 <Zakim> -Paola
17:27:21 <Zakim> -Sandro
17:27:55 <Paola> zakim, how do I ping people in private message mode on this system
17:27:55 <Zakim> I don't understand you, Paola
17:29:08 <sandro> Paola, on irc it's usually   "/msg sandro this is private to sandro" but it depends on your IRC client.
17:41:09 <HadleyBeeman> HadleyBeeman has joined #egov
17:44:02 <olyerickson> olyerickson has joined #egov
17:44:13 <yosuke> yosuke has joined #egov
17:44:54 <PhilA> PhilA has joined #egov
17:45:02 <Zakim> +bhyland
17:47:22 <harlanyu_> harlanyu_ has joined #egov
17:47:55 <Zakim> +Kevin_Simkins
17:48:59 <Zakim> +Sandro
17:49:04 <davemc> davemc has joined #egov
17:49:13 <MoZ> MoZ has joined #egov
17:52:05 <PhilA> scribe: HadleyBeeman
17:52:06 <Jeanne_> Jeanne_ has joined #egov
17:52:50 <Jeanne_> Shall we reconvene?
17:52:53 <PhilA> Web client is available through http://irc.w3.org/
17:53:16 <olyerickson> zaim, did you have a nice break? 
17:53:26 <olyerickson> s/zaim/zakim/
17:53:45 <HadleyBeeman> Olyerickson: Web client for IRC is often available when other clients can't get through the right ports
17:54:14 <HadleyBeeman> Topic: Reports from the Open Government Data Camp (OGDCamp)
17:54:34 <Jeanne_> Open Knowledge Foundation:  http://vimeo.com/21711338 
17:54:58 <Jeanne_> European Commissioner VP Kroes:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gBUpUD4l1Wo
17:55:18 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_: Introducing the event, two weeks ago in Warsaw.  Keynotes from the Open Knowledge Foundation and the Nellie Kroes, European Commissioner for Digital
17:55:47 <HadleyBeeman> … Our conversation: the strategic directions for government open data that we know about, and share those.  (Later session will be on specific implementations)
17:56:26 <jkiss> jkiss has joined #egov
17:56:42 <HadleyBeeman> … In the US, there is a focus on benefits of open data. Past examples (GPS, weather data), current examples we can infer (health), and future possibilities.  Innovation leads to economic growth and jobs.
17:57:22 <HadleyBeeman> … Also, it promotes transparency.  Makes the Freedom of Information process less complicated, and required less.
17:58:29 <olyerickson> CARD : How do "FOI" policies/practices vary in regions outside USA? 
17:58:29 <HadleyBeeman> … There is a lot of technology that falls from those directions.  Open linked data, API catalogues, ability to aggregate data and cross-correlate it (esp from different agencies).  
17:58:47 <Paola> Paola has joined #egov
17:59:01 <HadleyBeeman> Olyerickson: give me a min- the EC have just published a review of it in 80 countries
17:59:19 <Jeanne_> Hadley:  From the UK, our open data is underpinned by three main objectives:
17:59:26 <Jeanne_> 1) relationship between citizen and government
17:59:38 <Jeanne_> 2) better use of government resources and data and cost efficiencies
17:59:51 <Jeanne_> 3) potential for innovation and efficiencies in the public sector
18:00:05 <Jeanne_> Allows goverrnment to be a more efficient user and provider of data
18:00:22 <Jeanne_> Phil Archer: We had a recent switch of government
18:00:27 <Jeanne_> and open data survived
18:00:36 <olyerickson> [fyi] Wikipedia summary of "FOI" policies for 85+ countries: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_information_legislation
18:01:40 <Jeanne_> We have a now right wing government and now they are promoting not just economics but transparency as well
18:01:47 <Jeanne_> Thanks John
18:02:02 <Jeanne_> So the question is what happens when data is leaked vs. made open?
18:02:34 <HadleyBeeman> Davemc: there is a fine line between publishing and leaking data.
18:02:34 <olyerickson> [fyi] RE EU FOI summaries, see also http://www.statewatch.org/foi/foi.htm
18:02:49 <HadleyBeeman> Davemc: provenance of leaked data is also of question
18:03:21 <HadleyBeeman> The world's FOIs at a glance : http://epsiplatform.eu/content/worlds-foias-glance
18:04:19 <HadleyBeeman> Olyerickson: Q: when data.gov.uk first went online, it was data-consumer driven. Process by which users could request data (less formally that FOIA requests).  Provided guidance for data managers.
18:04:34 <HadleyBeeman> … how has that played out over the last 18 months?
18:04:56 <PhilA> HadleyBeeman: FOI is still a big part of open data.
18:05:11 <PhilA> ... scalability is an issue, the data.gov.uk is a very small team
18:05:22 <PhilA> ... a big problem is a vocabulary mismatch
18:05:44 <PhilA> ... e.g. Commissioning data in the NHS. You may not know that magic term
18:06:02 <PhilA> ... so my team (linkedgov) is working to make those bridges
18:06:10 <PhilA> ... translating gov speak into natural language
18:06:35 <PhilA> ... we;re facing a huge challenge of having a huge possible data pool and limited funds
18:06:47 <PhilA> ... people don't know what's possible
18:06:53 <PhilA> ... don't know what question to ask
18:07:02 <Jeanne_> CARD :  Several people have asked for the collection of use cases (stories, benefits, outcomes) around open data
18:07:46 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_: for those on the phone/IRC, any thoughts from your own governments or experiences?
18:08:12 <Paola> well, it would help if the data was structured /modelled properly before being encoded/linked
18:08:16 <PhilA> zakim, who is here?
18:08:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see tpac, bhyland, Kevin_Simkins, Sandro
18:08:18 <Zakim> On IRC I see Paola, jkiss, Jeanne_, MoZ, davemc, harlanyu_, PhilA, yosuke, olyerickson, HadleyBeeman, gdick, bhyland, Zakim, RRSAgent, josema, edsu, trackbot, sandro
18:08:30 <HadleyBeeman> Bhyland: In the USA, we're fortunate to have executive levels of support for open data.  There are a number of senior managers in gov who want to see this work.
18:08:43 <Paola> its the data structures that make the data unusable/expensive
18:08:54 <HadleyBeeman> … In terms of empowering the people who are data curators and stewards: we have work left to do. Can't all be done by the W3C
18:09:40 <HadleyBeeman> … We can learn from other governments who are scoping budgets and concrete deliverables.  It can be difficult to do with only once-a-month calls.
18:10:05 <HadleyBeeman> … Am I isolated in that observation, or have others found it as well?
18:10:18 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_: observers are encouraged to participate
18:11:19 <Paola> have seen two issues with gov data: completely missing, data (the law does not seem to specify what record should be kept, so its discretionary, and bodies are finding ways around saying 'we do nto store thsi info' when its not convenient
18:11:42 <HadleyBeeman> PhilA: Frequency of meeting is difficult; we get more momentum when we're face-to-face, and it can die down between meetings.
18:12:07 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_: Yes, we want to leave this meeting with clear actions to drive a change in our behaviour.
18:12:11 <Paola> the other issue is datasets which are not well formed/categorized, so that searching is a highly specialised task that required expensive skills
18:12:30 <Paola> sorry I am not on the phone but I can get o the phone if that helps
18:12:39 <olyerickson> +1 Paola; it goes even further w.r.t. proposed changes to e.g. US FOI policies that might enable administration to claim requested data doesn't exist when indeed it does
18:12:54 <HadleyBeeman> … We may decide to meet at a different frequency; we should follow what the group wants/needs.
18:13:13 <Paola> yes olyerickson I have heard
18:14:08 <HadleyBeeman> Bhyland: Specifically, do any others find strong leadership support, but a vacuum between the people who curate the data (budget, existing ways of working) etc?
18:14:10 <HadleyBeeman> q+
18:14:34 <olyerickson> q+
18:14:41 <PhilA> ack HadleyBeeman
18:14:48 <Jeanne_> Hadley:  We've found something similar in the UK
18:14:57 <PhilA> HadleyBeeman: As you've identified Bernadette, it's a new way of working
18:15:04 <Jeanne_> Hadley: It's a new way of working and a new relationship outside of your organization
18:15:10 <gdick> me/ odd aside.  In US, Census Regs refer to Citizens, FOIA to Persons
18:15:12 <PhilA> ... most data teams are being told "you must publish this stuff" and the team is already overloaded
18:15:22 <PhilA> ... the team doesn't see any feedback
18:15:23 <Jeanne_> Hadley: It's hard on top of an already committed organization and it's just one more responsibility
18:15:24 <Paola> so the priority imho is: work with governments to develop adopt best practice, what works best (cost effectiveness is:  mandate with legislation for public authoritities to proactively publish datasets which have been standardized that is make compliant with privacy law, then encoded
18:15:26 <PhilA> ... it's just one more thing to do
18:15:51 <PhilA> HadleyBeeman: so we're trying to build a tool that makes it easy for the publishers to see the benefit of what they're doing
18:16:05 <olyerickson> @Paola I think part of this should be brought up during Evangelism/Education discussion tomorrow
18:16:07 <HadleyBeeman> Bhyland: Agreed, this won't take off until people are getting something back from it (in government)
18:16:40 <HadleyBeeman> Bhyland: Within an agency/authority, I think about how this will help them being more efficient.  Most of them have trouble getting info from within their own organisation.
18:16:40 <Paola> you do that Olyer please, I may not be around, may post a quick note to list for you to refer to
18:17:00 <HadleyBeeman> Bhyland: Ex: most people get info about their own org from the external website, not internal resources.
18:17:22 <Paola> bhyland: true
18:17:23 <olyerickson> q?
18:17:36 <HadleyBeeman> Bhyland: How do we make this not just another thing on an already overburdened civil servant's plate?
18:17:58 <PhilA> ack olyerickson
18:17:59 <HadleyBeeman> Bhyland: It would be great if this group could make progress on that.
18:18:13 <davemc> It seems like we talking about the "marketing" of acceptance.
18:18:18 <kevinsimkins> kevinsimkins has joined #egov
18:18:28 <neeta> neeta has joined #egov
18:18:29 <HadleyBeeman> Olyerickson: Paola and I have been talking about this with regard to evangelism and education (tabled for tomorrow).
18:18:45 <davemc> we should consider the gamification studies on this, e.g SAPS (Status Achievement, Power, Stuff)
18:19:53 <HadleyBeeman> … Much of this have been public/private/academic partnerships. Contact that we (RPI) have had with other govs has been around "Help us! We see what's happening in the UK — prime minister's office, Talis, University of Southampton… We see in the US 3 Round Stones, White House, RPI, etc… Help us figure this out.  We recognise it's not just us, but we don't have the knowledge/experience/connections."
18:19:57 <kevinsimkins_> kevinsimkins_ has joined #egov
18:20:20 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
18:20:29 <Jeanne_> I like the idea of building a government e-ecosystem
18:20:49 <HadleyBeeman> … It's about building the ecosystem. 
18:20:50 <HadleyBeeman> q+
18:21:06 <PhilA> ack HadleyBeeman
18:21:11 <bhyland> John: Gov't/private partnerships is where we see progress.  Building the eco-system is what we need to do better.  You have to go as a professsional developer/data wrangler, academic, policy people and cross pollinate.
18:21:22 <PhilA> HadleyBeeman: One of the 1st things I did at Linked Gov was to build a map of the people involved
18:21:37 <PhilA> ... wanted to show what people got out which, we hope, is more than they put in
18:21:52 <PhilA> ... challenge is to show that their job will be easier if they publish the data
18:22:01 <bhyland> q+
18:22:07 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
18:22:28 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_ it's hard to get people motivated when budget cuts are so dramatic. Now, collection is even in jeopardy.
18:22:54 <olyerickson> +1 to "map of people involved"; I think this is partly the objective of the Community Directory
18:23:05 <HadleyBeeman> Davemc: Summary of the points here: we are trying to work with 2 distinct constituencies: people who collect the data,
18:23:31 <PhilA> q+
18:23:37 <HadleyBeeman> …and people who use the data. If we try to lump them together, then we will fail.  If we say "the government should do <blah>," it won't work.
18:23:54 <olyerickson> No single formula; better, "templates for success" 
18:24:09 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_: Multiple audiences here. Government is its own audience, and then there are externals as well. 
18:25:17 <PhilA> ack bhyland
18:25:20 <HadleyBeeman> … What has been enchanting is going to an agency and saying "You opened your data, had a hackathon, and have three new apps on it.  That's cool. And it has real-world relevance"
18:25:34 <HadleyBeeman> Bhyland: +1 to davemc's comment segmenting the constituencies here.
18:25:54 <HadleyBeeman> … to Jeanne_, appreciate the point that it's hard to motivate people (who may be concerned about being furloughed).
18:26:19 <HadleyBeeman> … which creates an ethos of inaction
18:27:17 <HadleyBeeman> … There are many approaches which can help. We show people their data as linked data, show them an application that mimics an architecture that costs $10m+ but is available for 10% of the cost
18:28:08 <davemc> q+
18:28:15 <HadleyBeeman> … It's a tough time to be selling a new way of doing something, but there are still people who want to make a difference.  Unless they get support for their managers though, and public exposure at conferences, then we're going to have a problem.
18:28:47 <davemc> q-
18:28:49 <olyerickson> ack PhilA
18:28:55 <HadleyBeeman> PhilA: +1 to the comment re showing about showing people being asked to do the extra work that the benefit is to them as individuals.
18:29:04 <davemc> CARD : Should we have a task force on the business cases?
18:29:28 <davemc> q+
18:29:32 <olyerickson> q+
18:29:35 <HadleyBeeman> … Personally, I get hacked off with constant competitions…  It exploits developers.  At some point, we will need to pay developers to build really good tools.
18:29:58 <Paola> Paola has joined #EGOV
18:30:09 <davemc> q-
18:30:33 <bhyland> +1 PhilA, I completely agree.  Hackathons are great for some notariety and for the agency / company sponsoring them … but they are 1 of about 20 different tools in the "tool kit" yet they are treated as the *only* tool at time.
18:30:42 <Paola> sorry havent learned how to get in the speaker q, do I just type q+
18:30:44 <chsiao> chsiao has joined #egov
18:30:57 <Paola> let me try
18:30:58 <olyerickson> @Paola yes
18:31:01 <davemc> yes, type q then plus
18:31:04 <Paola> q+
18:31:32 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_: A lot of government apps tend to look alike. Ex: our Health 2.0 initiative (non-gov entity), they use the challenge as a proving ground to find partners to work with for a long time. 
18:31:51 <Paola> how do I know when its my turn? is that when the handle turns red?
18:32:30 <davemc> Again, there are lessons that we could tap, "status" "open source" development.  While we do need to professionalize interfaces, we also do need to allow this to grow organically
18:32:31 <PhilA> ack olyerickson
18:32:39 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_: How do we strike a balance between bringing in new ideas and innovations against the concerns around exploiting developers?
18:33:12 <Paola> thanks bhyland, so basically now that I am in the queue, I can say what I got to say and it will be on record right?
18:33:32 <HadleyBeeman> Olyerickson: 24hr programming contests force a certain kind of visualisation or mash-up into existence that one may not have thought of before.  Also, emphasises the fact that creating apps can be like blogging.  Short amount of time, low overhead.
18:34:03 <davemc> It's the continuation of these mash ups that need to be considered.
18:34:29 <HadleyBeeman> Olyerickson: We've seen it with Ushahidi (from earthquake in Haiti), among others. We need to put a spotlight on these mechanisms.  These hackathons have a role.
18:34:33 <HadleyBeeman> q+
18:34:59 <davemc> q+
18:35:09 <HadleyBeeman> Olyerickson: forces the developer community to learn new things in a hurry as well
18:35:18 <HadleyBeeman> ack Paola
18:35:22 <bhyland> s/Paolo/Paola
18:35:30 <HadleyBeeman> Paola, did you have a comment?
18:35:49 <HadleyBeeman> s/Paolo/Paola
18:36:06 <PhilA> ack HadleyBeeman
18:36:51 <PhilA> HadleyBeeman: I'm finding a community around Rewired State http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=rewired%2Bstate&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Frewiredstate.org%2F&ei=vOquTqaVOKGQiALCopTzCg&usg=AFQjCNGdDKABcYAbUjEwMe4SEUoKJGlkhw
18:37:23 <PhilA> I meant http://rewiredstate.org/
18:37:38 <PhilA> ack dm
18:38:08 <HadleyBeeman> HadleyBeeman: we've had trouble with developers feeling burnt out, and focusing on accountability stuff or visualisations.  Harder to motivate them to build products and businesses (they've developed habits)
18:38:29 <HadleyBeeman> Davemc: apps don't continue past the event. We need to find ways for them to become self-sustaining.
18:38:36 <bhyland> Davemc: Hackathons are great.  But how do we make them self-sustaining?  How do we keep up the momentum?
18:38:55 <olyerickson> +1 *great* point about sustainability of hackathon artifacts/learninga/outcomes
18:39:06 <HadleyBeeman> Davemc: a sub-task-force task: why should a company choose to do this?  Why should a company choose to do this? We're missing the ongoing implementation.
18:39:12 <bhyland> +1 Davemc
18:39:19 <davemc> q-
18:40:02 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_: NASA have done a lot of challenges. Just had a Green Flight challenge (fuel efficient plane) for $1.3m prize. winner: moved 200 miles for 0.5 gallons of gas per person.
18:40:14 <davemc> green flight == "pedal faster"
18:40:45 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_: NASA's international space apps challenge is coming.  Now: a call for what kind of data people would want to use.
18:40:51 <bhyland> The issue of how to do sustainable "Envisioning" (not my word) that is based on open data + action of producing useful application + keeping up momentum to fund actual deployment + announcement.
18:42:08 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_: NASA doesn't run their events.  Partnered with Google and Microsoft for Random Hacks of Kindness. Helps with the sustainability.
18:42:12 <olyerickson> [fyi] Obama's Open Data Initiative statement (Sep 2011) http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2011/09/22/open-government-action-plan-innovators
18:42:12 <bhyland> CARD : How to make open data + apps sustainable.  How can we provide guidance that is peer-reviewed and properly advertised on the Web, possibly even coming from some standards body or hub site?
18:42:59 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_: We only have a challenge around a specific opportunity or mission challenge that we don't know how to solve.  Ex: descent of a vehicle onto Mars.
18:43:01 <Paola> sorry was away for a minute, will make a comment on the list
18:43:36 <HadleyBeeman> Olyerickson: Interesting: it combines open innovation, pinned to workflow process within NASA.
18:44:40 <Zakim> +sandro.a
18:44:57 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_: We've taken the health community on Data.gov a different way.  Last year: any good idea is a great idea, this year: need a business model to progress.
18:45:48 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_: This year we had 50 apps progress. Amazing for the community.
18:47:16 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_: they were assessed by a panel of industry people. Those companies do it because it's in their interest (economic gain)
18:47:24 <olyerickson> +1 to raising the bar on "good idea" including (sustainable) business model, not simply coolness
18:47:42 <Zakim> + +1.703.992.aacc
18:47:47 <HadleyBeeman> bhyland: we should communicate these successes more, promote them. 
18:47:48 <PhilA> +1 to what olyerickson was saying +1 to
18:48:23 <olyerickson> +1.703.992.aacc please identify
18:48:39 <HadleyBeeman> bhyland: we (W3C) sometimes overegg things, talk about them before they're ready.
18:49:11 <Jeanne_> Event is the Health Data Initiative: http://www.iom.edu/Activities/PublicHealth/HealthData/2011-JUN-09.aspx
18:49:38 <HadleyBeeman> bhyland: these projects must be production ready (servers can't fall over due to demand, for example)
18:49:43 <Zakim> - +1.703.992.aacc
18:50:10 <Zakim> + +1.703.992.aadd
18:50:14 <Paola> overegg _lol never heard that expression before, 
18:50:46 <HadleyBeeman> davemc: How do you recognise the people who have done this work? Like Linux in 1995 paid for in figo dollars. Sustain that status.
18:50:47 <HadleyBeeman> +q
18:51:03 <olyerickson> q+
18:51:05 <Cory-c> Cory-c has joined #egov
18:51:14 <bhyland> Davemc: People are wired for status. How do we recognize individuals & make it worth their time?
18:51:36 <HadleyBeeman> ack me
18:51:51 <bhyland> +1 Davemc
18:52:04 <HadleyBeeman> Hadleybeeman: it's wrapped in with making this is the self-interest of the publishers and developers involved.
18:52:21 <PhilA> zakim, aadd is Cory-c
18:52:21 <Zakim> +Cory-c; got it
18:52:28 <HadleyBeeman> davemc: Another barometer: how many of these apps ever reach a version 2? That says a lot.
18:53:15 <PhilA> q+
18:53:21 <PhilA> ack olyerickson
18:54:08 <HadleyBeeman> olyerickson: Developers sharing message: If we do things in a transparent way, other developers can jump into the ecosystem and participate.  We see this happening with government data:  the Guardian's data blog (may be the NY Times?) is good at communicating the methods behind visualisations.
18:54:43 <HadleyBeeman> olyerickson: We need to push back: have developers/journalists/visualisers provide provenance and sources for their data. 
18:55:45 <HadleyBeeman> olyerickson this helps encourage others to use the data, go to the source.
18:56:16 <HadleyBeeman> bhyland: +1. If we don't put together best practices on this, this could backfire.
18:56:19 <Jeanne_> Winners of the Health Data Initiative: http://www.health2challenge.org/winners/
18:56:30 <PhilA> An example of data visualisation with link to the source would be http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/oct/28/mortality-statistics-causes-death-england-wales-2010
18:57:13 <PhilA> q-
18:58:45 <bhyland> CARD : What can be done to associated basic provenance info, even an authority & URL of source, of data in a mashup.  John Erickson gave an example that he had to email some developers to find out where they pulled data from; Bernadette gave examples of mashups where data was just incorrect and there was no way to reach back to the developer and cite correct data.
18:58:58 <HadleyBeeman> PhilA: This group might want to promote within W3C: a project I'm working on proposing for funding.  That would make it easy for us to set up a working group that would set up a standardised API for correction.
18:59:07 <HadleyBeeman> q+
18:59:30 <davemc> CARD : develop the persona of constituents 
18:59:40 <Jeanne_> CARD : Should we consider helping to inform a standard API(s) that could be included to show how to correct the data? (via Phil)
18:59:46 <HadleyBeeman> PhilA: Here's how you include in your web page or app "here's how you correct this data"
19:00:08 <HadleyBeeman> bhyland: Input for the Provenance WG?
19:00:39 <PhilA> HadleyBeeman: It would be useful if we could build a process around correcting data
19:00:44 <PhilA> ... there's noone in charge
19:00:57 <PhilA> ... there's no process for fixing it, never mind technologies
19:01:02 <bhyland> proposed URL: http://isanyoneincharge.gov
19:01:05 <PhilA> ... so there's stuff we could do there
19:02:22 <PhilA> HadleyBeeman: answering Jeanne_ we can normally find who has published the data (as we're part of government) and when we contact them about data errors we get a wide range of responses
19:02:25 <olyerickson> Guardian example http://bit.ly/sJgArg is excellent w.r.t. data sources; better to also include e.g. dataviz toolkits (d3.js, etc?)
19:02:47 <olyerickson> q+
19:02:53 <HadleyBeeman> ack me
19:03:25 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_: we're trying to open each of those aspects to transparency. 1st: how many datasets each agency is publishing. 2nd: establish/streamline process for requesting new data and responding to the requester.
19:04:13 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_: this builds accountability.  We can't do it all at once, because the agencies may push back.  They're what they can with their scarce resources.
19:04:15 <PhilA> ack olyerickson
19:04:27 <bhandspicker> bhandspicker has joined #egov
19:05:05 <HadleyBeeman> olyerickson: Assertions can be made about the data by third parties.  
19:05:30 <davemc> +1 to Hadley
19:05:55 <HadleyBeeman> olyerickson: GLD working group: working on best practices for consuming data, provenance assertions.  What do we do with crowdsourced assertions about existing data?
19:05:56 <davemc> q+
19:06:28 <Zakim> +bhandspicker
19:06:42 <Jeanne_> Welcome Brian!
19:06:54 <HadleyBeeman> q+
19:06:58 <bhyland> Olyerickson: discussed assertions on provenance of published data. At RPI, they are collecting data from 90 (?) governments worldwide and looking at how to make assertions about quality.
19:07:09 <PhilA> ack davemc
19:07:22 <Jeanne_> Dave: Reputation and trust are important to any data source
19:07:23 <bhandspicker> Going mute and stepping away from the computer...audio only for next hour... then fully engaged.
19:07:44 <olyerickson> DaveMc sums my comments up in three words: "reputation and trust" ;)
19:07:53 <HadleyBeeman> Davemc: what's the reputation of data after it's gone through a game of Telephone?
19:08:01 <bhyland> Davemc: Discussed reputation & authority of published data.
19:08:05 <davemc> q-
19:08:08 <bhyland> q+
19:08:42 <HadleyBeeman> olyerickson: in the USA, we still don't have a precise mechanism for feeding back on data.
19:08:44 <bhyland> zakim, who is speaking?
19:08:54 <Zakim> bhyland, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: bhandspicker (12%), tpac (24%)
19:08:55 <davemc> CARD :  sub force on reputation and trust
19:09:43 <olyerickson> q?
19:09:48 <PhilA> ack HadleyBeeman
19:10:06 <PhilA> HadleyBeeman: Communication beyond provenance...
19:10:27 <PhilA> ... Some data someone was using didn't mind if it was off by 15%, other people may care more
19:10:32 <PhilA> ... context matters
19:10:43 <PhilA> Other thoughts on John's thoughts.
19:10:43 <davemc> +1 to PhilA on context
19:11:22 <PhilA> HadleyBeeman:  we've had big shifts in thoughts as social media has blown away the careful publication process with its checks and balances
19:11:36 <PhilA> davemc: It's reputation and trust
19:11:48 <bhyland> q?
19:12:02 <PhilA> ... there's a difference between publishing any old thing and checked data
19:12:12 <Zakim> -bhandspicker
19:12:54 <Zakim> +bhandspicker
19:13:16 <HadleyBeeman> bhyland: certain datasets are unique and authoritative. The only source of this data. It may have errors, but it is the authority on that data.
19:14:40 <HadleyBeeman> bhyland: there is an authority-down guidance (GLD WG recommendation). Bottom-up (input from the citizen/commercial company) would be interesting — we could have a reputation analyser.
19:14:50 <olyerickson> @bhyland your audio is quite soft...
19:16:06 <HadleyBeeman> bhyland: GLD WG is pragmatic, US participants may feel a bit behind other nations.  We're trying to focus on specific recommendations… do a lot with a little. 
19:16:14 <olyerickson> +1 to "doing a lot with a little"
19:16:18 <davemc> reputation is something that ebay handles well... most others follow some mechanism based on that model, even if they don't say so
19:16:26 <HadleyBeeman> +1 to getting into/on with it, not stuck trying to make a mathematician happy.
19:16:29 <olyerickson> q+
19:16:38 <PhilA> ack bhyland
19:16:47 <PhilA> q+
19:16:55 <davemc> forget the math guys.  make the statisticians hapy!
19:17:20 <HadleyBeeman> bhandspicker: I'm here (audio only)
19:17:28 <PhilA> ack olyerickson
19:17:44 <HadleyBeeman> olyerickson +1 to bhyland
19:18:18 <HadleyBeeman> olyerickson: on schema.org: motivation was not to recreate the hard work of esablished standards bodies, but to create something that was simple and easy to use
19:18:45 <davemc> "no one expects the Schema Inquisition"
19:19:22 <bhyland> The Semantic Link Podcast that John is referring to with RV Guha from Google is good & worthwhile listening to, check out http://semanticweb.com/the-semantic-link-%E2%80%93-episode-11-october-2011_b23961
19:20:05 <bhyland> RV Guha is now chairing the independent effort to define schema.org
19:20:53 <HadleyBeeman> PhilA: Recently invited to speak at something: "you're W3C, come tell us what's wrong with schema.org."  My response: "Nothing.  It's not W3C, but it's fine for what it is. Choose the tool that's right for you."
19:21:14 <PhilA> ack me
19:22:58 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_ (summing up this session): We've been trying to coordinate among groups from different organisations.  Next session: there are 3 big events this month (OGDCamp, World Bank event, and this)… How can we progress before the next time we're face-to-face?
19:23:30 <bhyland> To Phil's point, schema.org is an approach to providing simplified guidance on highly useful vocabularies for webmasters who are marking up content. W3C has been very helpful in getting schema.org discussions to happen more transparently in the public on a W3C public mailing list, even though it is not a W3C initiative.
19:24:15 <HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_: If we want to do these things (deliverables/projects), what partnerships do we need to form to make this happen?
19:24:41 <PhilA> Also worth noting that schema.org uses a W3C rec track standard, microdata, which is part of  HTML5
19:24:57 <bhyland> right Phil, true. Thanks.
19:25:57 <PhilA> meeting adjourned for lunch. 
19:26:23 <PhilA> Reconvene at 14:00 PDT
19:27:03 <Zakim> -bhandspicker
19:27:04 <Zakim> -bhyland
19:27:06 <HadleyBeeman> Adjourn for lunch
19:27:26 <Zakim> -sandro.a
19:27:54 <sandro> HadleyBeeman, PhilA I suggest doing minutes continuously
19:27:54 <Zakim> -Sandro
19:28:15 <HadleyBeeman> cheers, sandro
19:29:05 <PhilA> rrsagentm draft minutes
19:29:12 <PhilA> rrsagent. draft minutes
19:29:14 <kevinsimkins> Enjoy your lunsh. So long for now..
19:29:19 <PhilA> rrsagent, draft minutes
19:29:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-egov-minutes.html PhilA
19:29:29 <sandro> PhilA, this group doesn't use RRSAgent Minutes, generally.
19:29:32 <jkiss> jkiss has joined #egov
19:29:40 <sandro> Although, I suppose it could.
19:30:04 <jkiss> jkiss has left #egov
19:30:06 <sandro> See http://www.w3.org/egov/IG/meeting/2011-10-31
19:30:10 <kevinsimkins> Correction -- Enjoy your lunch. So long for now...
19:30:34 <Zakim> -Cory-c
19:32:11 <Zakim> -Kevin_Simkins
20:13:07 <Zakim> + +1.312.208.aaee
20:13:46 <Zakim> - +1.312.208.aaee
20:13:54 <tlr> tlr has joined #egov
20:16:17 <chsiao> chsiao has joined #egov
20:35:42 <Zakim> + +1.312.208.aaff
20:35:45 <Zakim> -tpac
20:35:47 <Zakim> +tpac
20:41:50 <MoZ> MoZ has joined #egov
20:46:38 <Zakim> - +1.312.208.aaff
20:52:09 <olyerickson> olyerickson has joined #egov
20:54:34 <davemc> davemc has joined #egov
20:55:25 <bhyland> When you're back, here is the blog post I wrote up as feedback to the Open Gov't Data camp, see http://3roundstones.com/2011/10/28/keeping-up-the-momentum-from-the-open-government-data-camp-2011/
20:56:44 <olyerickson> @bhyland thanks
20:57:02 <HadleyBeeman> HadleyBeeman has joined #egov
20:58:12 <Zakim> + +1.647.747.aagg
20:58:12 <sandro> close to starting again?
20:58:34 <HadleyBeeman> sandro, we're still waiting for Jeanne and a few others
21:00:23 <Zakim> +sandro
21:00:24 <PhilA> PhilA has joined #egov
21:00:37 <PhilA> zakim, who is here?
21:00:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see tpac, +1.647.747.aagg, sandro
21:00:38 <Zakim> On IRC I see PhilA, HadleyBeeman, davemc, olyerickson, MoZ, chsiao, tlr, bhandspicker, Cory-c, harlanyu_, gdick, Zakim, RRSAgent, josema, edsu, trackbot, sandro
21:02:11 <josema> zakim, code?
21:02:11 <Zakim> the conference code is 346844 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), josema
21:02:18 <PhilA> hi, if you're the one dialling in from 647 747 can you identify yourself please? Maybe you're in Toronto?
21:03:52 <yosuke> yosuke has joined #egov
21:04:42 <davemc> zakim, who is here
21:04:42 <Zakim> davemc, you need to end that query with '?'
21:04:47 <davemc> zakim, who is here?
21:04:47 <Zakim> On the phone I see tpac, +1.647.747.aagg, sandro
21:04:48 <Zakim> On IRC I see yosuke, PhilA, HadleyBeeman, davemc, olyerickson, MoZ, tlr, bhandspicker, Cory-c, harlanyu_, gdick, Zakim, RRSAgent, josema, edsu, trackbot, sandro
21:04:57 <Zakim> +??P12
21:05:03 <josema> zakim, ??P12 is me
21:05:03 <Zakim> +josema; got it
21:05:29 <Jeanne_> Jeanne_ has joined #egov
21:05:31 <olyerickson> TOPIC: Warsaw
21:05:31 <josema> zakim, mute me
21:05:31 <Zakim> josema should now be muted
21:06:02 <chsiao> chsiao has joined #egov
21:06:03 <Zakim> +Cory-c
21:06:14 <jkiss> jkiss has joined #egov
21:06:40 <olyerickson> ... community vast, everyone will to help each other
21:06:46 <olyerickson> ... "everyone was frustrated"
21:06:56 <olyerickson> .. see also @bhyland URL 
21:06:56 <olyerickson> ... useful to learn what other govt's are doing
21:07:11 <olyerickson> ... 3 groups:
21:07:25 <olyerickson> 1. Developer group --- cool tools, what's going on, what data available
21:07:54 <Zakim> + +1.571.331.aahh
21:08:15 <olyerickson> 2. People "doing" ogd (cities, etc)
21:09:23 <olyerickson> interesting observation: epectation that govts would be sharing, thus needed to have policies in place (i.e. proactive)
21:09:28 <olyerickson> 3. People getting ready to do OGD
21:09:38 <olyerickson> different than US Data.gov which was interested in getting things done
21:09:51 <josema> zakim, unmute me
21:09:51 <Zakim> josema should no longer be muted
21:10:14 <olyerickson_2> olyerickson_2 has joined #egov
21:10:57 <Jeanne_> Josema: Was at Open Government Data Camp, and is seeing maturing in the field
21:11:32 <Jeanne_> Josema has started community of practice with the World Bank.  The community is growing.  Have been participating in EU and EC events, primarily.
21:12:11 <Jeanne_> ...Next step is not enough to just do something, but must be sustainable.
21:12:39 <Jeanne_> ...Companies that don't have to do anything with IT could have immense benefit from this data.
21:13:05 <PhilA> scribe: Jeanne_
21:13:34 <Jeanne_> ...The community is maturing.  A few years ago we needed to "boil the ocean" and now we "are already boiling the ocean".
21:13:35 <olyerickson_2> Zakim, who is on the phone? 
21:13:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see tpac, +1.647.747.aagg, sandro, josema, Cory-c, +1.571.331.aahh
21:14:09 <davemc> davemc has joined #egov
21:14:09 <Jeanne_> Josema:  There were two additional events besides the camp: Open Data in Developing Countries (an open space format/barcamp).
21:14:54 <Jeanne_> Trying to join two different communities with OpenAid (what countries they are funding) and locally sustainable initiatives in developing countries.
21:15:41 <Jeanne_> There were a lot of commonalities in the people working on various things.  Looked at the building blocks for open data initiatives.
21:16:21 <josema> http://opengovernmentdata.okfnpad.org/open-development
21:16:24 <Jeanne_> Trying to understand what would be needed.  Some concern from Kenyan Open Data Initiative to understand how to survive beyond launch.
21:17:15 <Jeanne_> Break outs: necessary building blocks for open data; standards for open data (IATA?); evidence of impact of these initiatives.
21:17:52 <Jeanne_> Concerns about the lack of formal metrics around these to show sustainable initiatives and learning.
21:18:45 <Jeanne_> Another satellite event on open identifiers for companies.  Came up in UK around OpenCorporate to build a set of universal identifiers for companies there.
21:18:59 <PhilA> Josema is talking about http://opencorporates.com/
21:19:07 <davemc> metrics are intriguing issues "If you can't measure it, it doesn't exist"
21:19:35 <josema> http://wiki.okfn.org/OGDCamp_2011_Organizational_Identifiers_Workshop
21:19:51 <Zakim> -josema
21:20:04 <Jeanne_> The current identifiers are done by Dun and Bradstreet.
21:20:17 <josema> dropped?
21:20:22 <josema> redialing
21:20:25 <Jeanne_> People working in OpenAid have a similar problem.  There is a format they have for describing companies.
21:20:26 <olyerickson_2> [fyi] getting beyond DUNS numbers, see also http://dotank.nyls.edu/orgpedia/
21:20:36 <josema> zakim, code?
21:20:36 <Zakim> the conference code is 346844 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), josema
21:20:37 <olyerickson_2> @josema yes apparently
21:20:51 <Zakim> +??P12
21:21:00 <josema> zakim, ??P12 is me
21:21:00 <Zakim> +josema; got it
21:21:58 <Jeanne_> There is a subset of this that is Orgpedia led by Jim Hendler and Beth Noveck.  But this is trying to solve a much broader issue.
21:22:37 <PhilA> q+
21:23:07 <josema> IATI for Open Aid -- http://iatistandard.org/
21:23:12 <PhilA> q-
21:23:58 <olyerickson_2> ack PhilA
21:24:00 <gdick> me/ IATA = Airport Codes plausible but wrong
21:24:20 <Jeanne_> PhilA  Trying to work on this with the Commission, Chris Taggert will be involved.
21:24:28 <Jeanne_> Josema:  Chris said he was already in touch with them and trying to work together. 
21:26:17 <Jeanne_> Makes sense to connect with the W3C.
21:26:41 <PhilA> Note to self - Josama talking about Open 311
21:26:59 <Zakim> -Cory-c
21:28:16 <davemc> jeanne discusses the desire to "link" to other groups
21:28:28 <PhilA> q+
21:28:41 <davemc> Jeanne:  How do we avoid the duplicative efforts of say, data catalogs
21:29:07 <Jeanne_> Josema: I don't have a good answer for how to best coordinate multiple group activities.
21:29:16 <Zakim> +bhandspicker
21:29:52 <Jeanne_> Josema:  I will work through the Web Foundation to partner with as many people as possible.  Will need specific expertise to do this and that.
21:30:22 <Jeanne_> Josema:  Some will be specific issues in developing countries.  For me, every one of them has a role to play.
21:31:15 <Jeanne_> Josema:  For the World Bank, the target of that community is very different.  They are targeting a special group of client governments and high-level policy makers.
21:31:32 <Jeanne_> Josema: This is different than the membership in OKN or W3C.
21:31:33 <PhilA> ack me
21:31:53 <davemc> as always, it comes down to what groups the projects are addressing
21:32:05 <Jeanne_> PhilA: There are a lot of people working on the same thing, which Chris Taggert in the UK is leading.
21:32:56 <Jeanne_> Andrew Stott is working on this project, too.  But completely separately in Brussels, DGdigit is having people like me help to create this.
21:32:59 <Jeanne_> We do not need to create a whole new vocabulary and can use other people's terms.  But the down thing...
21:34:02 <Jeanne_> is that whatever the project, such as working out tools for policy making, in whatever government, that there are slightly different agendas, paymasters, and time scales.
21:34:07 <josema> time schedule is also an issue for me wrt W3C
21:35:03 <Jeanne_> PhilA: I have to deliver by March, but the W3C doesn't work through that quickly.  A year ago when we created the OGD group, a rep from NZ said that service could only be provided if the servers were resident in the country requesting the service.
21:35:35 <Jeanne_> PhilA:  The electronic version of "published in NZ" was that the server was in NZ.
21:35:45 <josema> I know weel that sort of problem having faced it in an Open Data project, too
21:35:46 <Zakim> -josema
21:35:51 <josema> s/weel/Well
21:36:06 <Jeanne_> PhilA:  Whatever you do don't define a name space that ends in a country code--other countries won't touch it.
21:36:06 <Jeanne_> Jason Kiss:  That has now been modified and there is much more room for manuevering.
21:36:12 <josema> zakim, code?
21:36:12 <Zakim> the conference code is 346844 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), josema
21:36:28 <Jeanne_> PhilA:  Doing things at different time scales and agendas shows it's a complex problem.  There are always going to be problems around the edges and not everything is perfect.
21:36:52 <Jeanne_> Hadley:  Those personality bits are critical.
21:37:05 <Zakim> +??P12
21:37:08 <josema> zakim, ??P12 is me
21:37:08 <Zakim> +josema; got it
21:37:40 <Jeanne_> PhilA:  If you were in a different place it would make a very different solution for that country.
21:37:41 <Jeanne_> Hadley:  I often serve as a bridge translating between different groups working the problem.
21:38:41 <davemc> jeanne:  we could perhaps coordinate between selected projects.  Pick something we're interested in and focus on one
21:39:26 <davemc> Jeanne:  We may feel comfortable with with long scale, but project team may not
21:39:54 <Jeanne_> Josema:  I know some of the things I want to build and we could define which make sense for the group to work on.  Some of the things I want to produce the World Bank wants
21:40:45 <Jeanne_> ...and others may be ones I need to work on with the W3C.
21:41:20 <Jeanne_> PhilA:  So what would such a project look like?
21:41:25 <Jeanne_> Such as the Corporate identifiers.
21:41:39 <davemc> jeanne:  I could imagine 1 group has the lead, and others would act as experts or peer reviewers
21:42:20 <davemc> Jeanne:  we would (within W3C)  invite others to preevnt limits inview
21:42:40 <davemc> Jeanne: or one group could handle code, another spec
21:42:42 <josema> zakim, mute me
21:42:42 <Zakim> josema should now be muted
21:43:34 <gdick> me/ suggest you look at Manufacturer Identification (MID) from US Customs.  It's horrible and a good example on how not to ID
21:43:42 <Jeanne_> Hadley:  Building a vocabulary or a common group of identifiers is hard because the corporate structure in each country is different.
21:44:10 <davemc> to gdick, but imagine changing it on thefly now
21:44:11 <Jeanne_> Hadley:  Getting that "country" structure in the identifiers early would be important.
21:44:49 <gdick> me/ *shudders*
21:45:03 <Jeanne_> John: This could be as bad as when W3C got involved in DRM many years ago.  One of the big reasons Orgpedia exists is that DUNS numbers are claimed as proprietary.
21:45:51 <Jeanne_> John:  Unambiguous identifiers are claimed as intellectual property by a big corporation.  They are so useful.
21:46:21 <Jeanne_> John:  The data we have in Orgpedia is more like a DBpedia thing.  Being able to mash it together with other data lets us do useful things.
21:46:35 <davemc> even when they aren't corporate, they may be consider at privacy risks, re; US SSN
21:47:11 <Jeanne_> John:  I don't know what role W3C should play--perhaps like the DCAT work for information about corporate entities?
21:47:31 <Jeanne_> John:  Extensible ways to get common identifiers--W3C should be more of a supporting role in this case, but also have those other entities participating in the W3C.
21:48:28 <Jeanne_> Hadley:  The whole reason open corporate exists is that Companies House is a trading fund, which gets some money from the Treasury, and also generates revenue by selling data of companies it collects.
21:49:47 <Jeanne_> PhilA: We can help with hosting vocabularies.  We are hosting the organization ontology on W3.org
21:49:49 <Jeanne_> Hadley:  Power of the W3C may make it easier to have that conversation.
21:49:49 <Jeanne_> Hadley: Open Corporates may get better adoption in government areas as open data and open standards are being used.
21:50:04 <josema> hmmm… you might want to make a distinction between standards and non-standards track when considering potential new work
21:50:56 <Jeanne_> PhilA:  There is no political affiliation, so that may be a good spot for W3C for hosting ontologies but not the data.
21:51:02 <Jeanne_> PhilA:  There's no formality behind it.
21:51:14 <Jeanne_> PhilA:  We can review work and publish "where they have met best practice" or "duplicated effort".
21:51:21 <josema> review is fine, this group did it before, in fact, in the middle of others' process so it serve them as input
21:51:33 <josema> s/serve/served
21:52:23 <Jeanne_> DaveMc:  Be careful, it would have to have measurable, quantifiable evaluations or have a potential negative impact.
21:54:03 <Jeanne_> PhilA:  The Web Foundation came about because W3C was pushing at the boundaries of what it is allowed to do.  We have close cooperations among all three.
21:54:03 <Jeanne_> PhilA:  if what we want to do doesn't fit, we will do what we can, but we can look at other options.
21:54:23 <josema> http://webscience.org/
21:54:30 <Jeanne_> DaveMc:  Specification vs. implementation--be careful of being a watchdog.
21:54:51 <HadleyBeeman> DaveMc: We stabilise specifications.
21:55:00 <Jeanne_> PhilA:  Web science institute was created because of pushing the education research on socio-economic impacts.
21:55:13 <Jeanne_> DaveMc:  We stabilize the work and infrastructure.
21:55:36 <josema> +1 to Dave and Hadley
21:55:54 <josema> zakim, who is here?
21:55:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see tpac, +1.647.747.aagg, sandro, +1.571.331.aahh, bhandspicker, josema (muted)
21:55:58 <Zakim> On IRC I see davemc, jkiss, chsiao, Jeanne_, PhilA, HadleyBeeman, MoZ, harlanyu_, gdick, Zakim, RRSAgent, josema, edsu, trackbot, sandro
21:56:20 <Jeanne_> PhilA:  The Foundation is about nation building.
21:56:56 <davemc> I shudder every time DRM is mentioned...
21:56:58 <Jeanne_> Hadley's catch is better:  stabilize specifications.
21:57:03 <Jeanne_> PhilA:  If what comes out of this group is the evolution of a new entity, that's okay.
21:57:43 <Jeanne_> John:  In 2000-2001 when digital rights management came up, many people "knew" what needed to be done, but other voices said the social implications are huge.
21:57:43 <Jeanne_> John: From W3C perspective, we don't know how to fit this crazy world into this perspective.
21:59:25 <Jeanne_> John:  W3C looked at creating and maturing standards and technologies--workshop showed that other stakeholders needed to talk more before W3C could proceed.
22:00:16 <davemc> So what I'm hearing is that we need to decide what problem(s) we are solving, nd for whom.  And whether they see it as a problem
22:00:46 <Jeanne_> John:  It's reasonable to ask the questions, but these groups may need to identify a task like common metadata to define corporate tasks.
22:02:11 <davemc> agenda addendum: naptime!
22:02:27 <Jeanne_> John:  Having that brand associated with it attracts governments.
22:02:27 <Jeanne_> PhilA:  DCAT is at an early draft now, but ADMS is being a more stable standard.
22:03:01 <Jeanne_> John:  Our work is not to endorse DCAT but to endorse the model.  A good thing to do to adopt a standard for description.
22:04:00 <Jeanne_> Bernard:  Many governments are expecting something out of the eGov group.  Should we be there?
22:04:12 <davemc> test
22:04:18 <Jeanne_> John:  Kenya looked at the use of the DCAT standard and liked it, but if W3C had branded or endorsed it the government might have looked at it differently.
22:04:22 <Jeanne_> PhilA:  There are lots of communities that do activities like mobile apps but are not W3C.  But governments would like to have something to point to from legislation or elsewhere to reference.
22:04:46 <PhilA> present+ Bernard Gidon
22:04:59 <josema> agenda?
22:05:05 <josema> ah...
22:06:32 <josema> do you need anything else from me? getting late here
22:06:51 <Zakim> - +1.647.747.aagg
22:07:20 <davemc> Josema, everyone is distracted. will ask
22:07:26 <josema> please!
22:07:45 <davemc> Jeanne says you can go, Jose
22:07:47 <davemc> thanks
22:08:21 <josema> ack me
22:08:34 <davemc> Open Gov data discussion by Hadley
22:08:38 <Zakim> -josema
22:09:36 <davemc> Jeanne: recaps: developers who want to do stuff, people that want to share war stories, others who want to make sure the new scars are tolerable
22:09:49 <davemc> most people moving methodically on open data plans
22:10:34 <davemc> jeanne: was good to have elected reps there, and have them push/endorse. Exemplars are really useful
22:10:43 <josema> btw, if you want to take a look at what WF is up to wrt Open Data, an starting point can be the slides I used at the camp but I'm producing more documentation already): http://public.webfoundation.org/2011/10/20111003_WF_OGDCAMP_JA.pdf
22:11:14 <davemc> Jeanne: Hadley thought a lot was going on, but that we don't have enough structure to reorg
22:11:42 <josema> rrsagent, pointer?
22:11:42 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-egov-irc#T22-11-42
22:11:52 <davemc> Jeanne: there were some depressing keynotes; some very definite fails
22:12:07 <josema> thanks for having me
22:12:08 <davemc> Jeanne: we need to bring the team together so we don't wither
22:13:50 <davemc> Bernadette: We've gotten here through a small and committed teams. As we go mainstream, the message may become diluted for free and open exchanges aren't preserved
22:14:18 <davemc> Bernadette: open data as publication may be considered threatening to existing corporations
22:15:02 <davemc> Bernadette: we need to tap the braintrust, and hype successes, while avoiding negative interests
22:16:01 <davemc> Bernadette: the open and transparent interests, though different approaches, including negative ones was good
22:17:26 <davemc> what?
22:17:44 <davemc> red room, chains, concrete, cold
22:18:09 <PhilA> zakim, who is here?
22:18:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see tpac, sandro, +1.571.331.aahh, bhandspicker
22:18:10 <davemc> hadley: on practices and policies.
22:18:11 <Zakim> On IRC I see davemc, jkiss, chsiao, PhilA, harlanyu_, gdick, Zakim, RRSAgent, edsu, trackbot, sandro
22:18:30 <davemc> slides are on the agenda page
22:19:11 <davemc> you're safe
22:19:23 <PhilA> present+  Virginie Galindo, Gemalto
22:19:38 <davemc> thanks for catching that Phil.  Bad on names
22:19:53 <davemc> Hadley to discuss OPen Gov data in general, landscape
22:19:58 <chsiao> chingteng hsiao from academia sinica
22:20:14 <Jeanne> Jeanne has joined #egov
22:20:15 <PhilA> present+ chingteng hsiao
22:20:33 <Jeanne> Welcome to our new attendees and guests!
22:20:59 <PhilA> present+ Cheng Hung
22:21:36 <davemc> HAdley: types of data, UK categories : past data (historical), future data (forecasting), infrastructure (geo), real-time (weather)
22:22:02 <davemc> Hadley: talking about non-personally identifiable data
22:22:18 <davemc> Hadley: does this differ from working def?
22:23:02 <davemc> Hadley: vision sit within gov, devs choose from sets; individuals use apps to make life better
22:23:25 <davemc> bernard: I don't see flow. Hadley: that was intentianal
22:23:40 <PhilA> Hadley's slides are at http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/File:Open_data_egov_IG_slides.pdf
22:23:55 <davemc> +1 on PDF <grin>
22:24:45 <davemc>  Hadley: it's hard to aggregate data from multiple sources. Think school data to housing prices
22:24:58 <davemc>  Hadley: They aren't insumountable, just hard
22:25:27 <davemc>  Hadley: Quality, reliability reputation trust all fall in
22:26:11 <davemc>  Hadley:  characters: publishers from many separate groups, Interpreter (explain what that really is)
22:27:02 <davemc>  Hadley:  characters: developers, build something from this data, and end users (who may not see raw data, but see some result
22:28:32 <davemc> John: what does user mean?  Obvious use is end user of the result of the app, but developer is also an important user. Developers may have significant and gating requirements.
22:31:57 <davemc> John: wishes the world was closer to dev/end user.
22:32:29 <davemc> John: mashable apis are use, not so much raw data
22:33:05 <davemc>  Hadley: would be useful to be able to deliver what each layer needs
22:33:44 <davemc>  Hadley: in gov, most want closeness to their own data, related data and ability to extract meaningful information
22:34:01 <gdick> me/ Trick or Treat Time! er, um, I have previous commitments and must drop off.  Check the public eGov IG board.  I posted two web apps.  Hadley and John might like them.
22:34:12 <davemc>  Hadley: Currently, getting to the data can be hard.  Still driven by personal netwrok
22:34:41 <davemc>  Hadley: we emphasis the more they publish the better their own lives will be
22:34:57 <gdick> gdick has left #eGov
22:34:59 <bhyland> bhyland has joined #egov
22:36:03 <davemc>  PhillA: asked about organograms 
22:36:03 <Jeanne> Jeanne has joined #egov
22:36:40 <davemc>  PhilA: data.gov.uk has that organogram data
22:37:02 <davemc> http://data.gov.uk/organogram/cabinet-office
22:37:49 <davemc>  PhilA: nice example of data use in public space
22:38:18 <davemc>  PhilA: shifting to slides
22:38:47 <davemc>  PhilA: EU projects 
22:39:02 <HadleyBeeman> HadleyBeeman has joined #egov
22:39:13 <davemc>  PhilA: Crossover: policy modelling tools. 
22:39:52 <davemc>  PhilA: build repository for egov. planning 3 workshops. 
22:40:09 <tlr> tlr has joined #egov
22:40:19 <davemc>  PhilA: ECEG 2012 reference 
22:40:45 <davemc>  PhilA: 1st workshop is on using the data
22:41:15 <davemc>  PhilA: workshop to show what is being done, not creating more data
22:41:55 <davemc>  PhilA: if IG wants to get involved in this space, this would be a point of focus
22:42:01 <Jeanne> CARD (via PhilA): No more papers, only instances of the use of the data.
22:42:28 <davemc>  PhilA: millennium Institute in Dec in DC 
22:42:41 <Zakim> - +1.571.331.aahh
22:43:13 <davemc>  PhilA: final in brussels from Lisbon council, Mar 2013. 
22:43:35 <davemc>  PhilA: Brussels will be major focal point
22:44:06 <Jeanne> CARD : Coordinate with Crossover project for June 2012 (Barcelona) or final March 2013 (Lisbon).
22:44:18 <davemc> JOhn: how do we keep world in perspective
22:44:45 <davemc> Hadley  : How do we focus on where we should/will be , not where we are now
22:45:05 <davemc>  PhilA: Focus on 4 year out, deliver in two.  Wide open proposals
22:45:48 <davemc>  PhilA: Semic: http://semic.eu
22:46:18 <davemc>  PhilA: semantic interoperability across European community
22:46:37 <olyerickson> olyerickson has joined #egov
22:46:40 <davemc>  PhilA: This is a contracted project, PWC
22:47:07 <davemc>  PhilA: developing ADMS (schema), looks similar to DCAT
22:47:46 <sandro> q+ to clarify what's happening with dcat
22:49:02 <davemc> John: May 2011, open knowledge foundation met and take away was potential was there for DCATlike models
22:49:18 <HadleyBeeman> q
22:49:20 <HadleyBeeman> q?
22:49:31 <davemc> John: everyone agrees dcat model makes sense
22:49:44 <davemc> John: no competitors for DCAT
22:49:56 <HadleyBeeman> ack sandro
22:49:56 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to clarify what's happening with dcat
22:50:31 <davemc> Sandro: Sandro clarifies that DCAT was presented 
22:51:16 <davemc> Sandro: dact is on refernce track
22:51:45 <davemc> s/dact/dcat
22:52:26 <Zakim> -bhandspicker
22:52:35 <davemc> Sandro: timeline is unclear, but hopefully not very long
22:52:51 <davemc> Hadley: moves to continue and readress this later
22:53:08 <HadleyBeeman> CARD for GLD WG: clarify the DCAT development/recommendation process within the context of the GLD's work.
22:53:44 <sandro> Sandro: See http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/charter 2.3 Standard Vocabularies, Item 1 Metadata.
22:53:53 <davemc>  PhilA: DC and DCAT model being developed in EC is due in Dec 2011
22:54:24 <davemc>  PhilA: ADMS uses both terminology DC and DCAT
22:54:30 <olyerickson> Discussion of Max Dekkers' ADMS work (to be finished Dec 2011)
22:55:14 <davemc>  PhilA: next year for endoersement by EU, not legally binding but commission will "request" (force of procurement)
22:55:55 <davemc>  PhilA: ADMS may have impact in EU, but may fail wrldwide, due to .EU status
22:56:06 <HadleyBeeman> PhilA: GLD WG can review the ADMS work.
22:56:39 <davemc>  John: ADMS doc available? PhilA: not public yet.
22:57:20 <davemc> John: How do we deal with this activity, (consultant working on project) wrt our specifications
22:57:49 <davemc>  PhilA: Consultant does know his stuff, and has active community
22:57:51 <sandro> q+
22:58:06 <davemc>  PhilA: eGov needs to provide bridge across commuities
22:58:25 <davemc>  PhilA: we will have to work within these timelines.
22:58:51 <davemc> HAdley: Can we move GLD stuff to GLD 
22:59:20 <davemc>  PhilA:  working on core vocabs: person, Business and location/address
22:59:31 <sandro> q-
22:59:32 <olyerickson> +1 to ADMS being a W3C GLD discussion topic (along with DCAT and other (?!?) dataset catalog vocabs)
22:59:40 <davemc>  PhilA: (moving on)
23:00:08 <davemc>  PhilA: GLD lots of crossover with Crossover
23:00:43 <davemc>  PhilA: hopes Bernadette will get into what hs been built
23:01:39 <davemc>  PhilA: ESP games for crowd sourcing tags, data correction. Gamification issue
23:02:17 <davemc> Zakim, q?
23:02:17 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
23:02:31 <davemc> Hadley calls time check
23:03:22 <davemc> John: gives background on  efforts
23:04:15 <davemc> John: RPI has been working in this space for some time, portal is "Linking Open Government Data"
23:05:12 <davemc> John: process identifies data set, pulls them down, creates provenance, enhance data, 
23:05:25 <davemc> John: Billions of triples, millions of data set converted
23:05:57 <davemc> John: Idea was to create portal to help build community
23:06:19 <davemc> John: demos, source code, tutorials, 
23:07:22 <davemc> John: new introductions; International open gov data search. 
23:07:54 <davemc> John: scaping open gov data, create RDF DCAT-like metadata, and make available
23:08:38 <davemc> s/scap/scrap
23:09:07 <davemc> John: need to follow a common metadata model
23:09:40 <davemc> John: it's a step forward that gov data _is_ available, though model is 15 years old
23:10:18 <davemc> John: Instance hub, canonical identifiers for use during conversion
23:10:30 <HadleyBeeman> +1 to John's point that the publishing models (formats, etc) are 15 years old.
23:10:59 <HadleyBeeman> (Though I'll emphasise that it's much better to get CSV data with poor metadata than not get it at all!)
23:11:10 <davemc> John: EPA toxic data example
23:13:11 <davemc> John: demo of water quality data app
23:14:23 <davemc> John: munge of multiple data sources and drill-in
23:15:31 <davemc> Hadley: seems to be great  cross between John and PhilA app directions
23:16:43 <davemc> Phila: gov types may be resistant to such examples such as arsenic
23:17:12 <davemc> John: data is deeper 
23:17:26 <davemc> PhilA: data needs to be in context
23:18:15 <davemc> John:  work is around where the data comes from and representing the full timeline
23:18:46 <davemc> Hadley: problem exists even between written versus spoken words
23:20:20 <davemc> John: may be compared across lots of data comparisons
23:21:03 <olyerickson> See http://inference-web.org/wiki/Semantic_Water_Quality_Portal for screen shot "demo" and discussion
23:21:05 <davemc> Hadley: open data in UK may be viewed as used for "punishment"
23:21:33 <davemc> Hadley: we may need to address this more positively
23:22:03 <tlr> tlr has joined #egov
23:22:06 <olyerickson> See http://was.tw.rpi.edu/swqp/map.html for live Semantic Water Quality demo (note: limited regions encoded)
23:22:32 <davemc> Hadley: Linkedgov will move to NFP
23:23:16 <davemc> Hadley: 3 problems: data types
23:23:30 <davemc> Hadley:  allows mash ups across data from one place
23:23:42 <davemc> Hadley: works with officials to decode data
23:24:43 <davemc> Hadley: demo/discussion of aggregating datasets
23:25:18 <davemc> Hadley: sometimes hard to recognized connections
23:25:39 <davemc> Hadley: many datasets are missing metadata
23:26:49 <davemc> Hadley: once the connection is made, the data aggregation is also made available
23:27:32 <davemc> Hadley: linkedgov is building games to  engage . tasks take 30s or less
23:28:14 <davemc> Hadley: good engagement with civil service
23:29:15 <davemc> Hadley: semantic sketch for open quesry
23:29:28 <davemc> s/quesry/query/
23:29:53 <davemc> Hadley: reliability score is made up of manyitems
23:30:59 <davemc> Jeanne: what does clean up the data mean?
23:31:28 <davemc> Hadley: we use open practices to make the data better
23:32:24 <davemc> John: describes the process from the query
23:32:43 <davemc> Hadley: may see multiple answers, from multiple datasets
23:32:55 <davemc> john: reliability?
23:33:11 <davemc> Hadley:  describes items for reliability (age, source, etc)
23:33:44 <davemc> John: this is the essence for mashup and visualizations
23:34:09 <davemc> John: seems well designed to select appropriate datasets
23:34:36 <davemc> John: often the questions get simplified
23:34:52 <davemc> Hadley: we want to navigate through data in multiple days
23:35:12 <davemc> Hadley: may be great to move into social aspects
23:35:38 <davemc> Hadley: visualization is increasingly important
23:36:23 <davemc> Hadley: process loop focuses on the feedback (providers and interpreters)
23:37:02 <davemc> Jeanne: take a 15 minute break.  following policy and accessibility
23:38:30 <Zakim> -sandro
23:39:11 <PhilA> Break for coffee
23:43:31 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, tpac, in SW_e-Gov(eGovIG)11:00AM
23:43:34 <Zakim> SW_e-Gov(eGovIG)11:00AM has ended
23:43:36 <Zakim> Attendees were Sandro, tpac, bhyland, +1.410.975.aaaa, Paola, +1.847.699.aabb, Kevin_Simkins, [IPcaller], +1.703.992.aacc, +1.703.992.aadd, Cory-c, bhandspicker, +1.312.208.aaee,
23:43:38 <Zakim> ... +1.312.208.aaff, +1.647.747.aagg, josema, +1.571.331.aahh
23:53:26 <sandro> zakim, this is egov
23:53:26 <Zakim> sorry, sandro, I do not see a conference named 'egov' in progress or scheduled at this time
23:53:50 <HadleyBeeman> HadleyBeeman has joined #egov
23:54:04 <sandro> zakim, room for 5?
23:54:05 <Zakim> ok, sandro; conference Team_(egov)23:54Z scheduled with code 26632 (CONF2) for 60 minutes until 0054Z
23:54:26 <sandro> PhilA, it looks like the egov conference timed out.   Let's use CONF2.
23:54:37 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: eGov all-day meeting Oct 31, Nov 1 -- http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/F2F4 Conf Code 26632 (CONF2)
23:54:52 <Zakim> Team_(egov)23:54Z has now started
23:54:59 <Zakim> +Sandro
00:00:04 <olyerickson> zakim, who is on the phone?
00:00:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro
00:00:52 <olyerickson> Zakim, I am the scribe
00:00:52 <Zakim> I don't understand 'I am the scribe', olyerickson
00:00:54 <PhilA> scribe: olyerickson
00:01:00 <olyerickson> scribe: olyerickson
00:01:44 <olyerickson> topic: Open Government Data Practices and Policies (continued)
00:02:00 <sandro> ping.   can someone dial back in, code CONF2 ?
00:02:26 <olyerickson> hadley: have now recognized that they need to do more
00:02:40 <sandro> PhilA, ?
00:02:50 <olyerickson> ... conversations w/ dev's focus on problem of data behind paywalls
00:03:00 <olyerickson> what is open data
00:03:13 <sandro> Can you dial in?   code Conf2
00:03:26 <olyerickson> what rights do citizens have to data
00:03:26 <olyerickson> what is our obligation to citizens
00:04:40 <olyerickson> The Shareholder Executive is responsible for maximizing revenue from (e.g.) selling of data
00:05:06 <olyerickson> Conflicts with transparency objective of govt
00:05:53 <olyerickson> people like Chris Taggert are concerned because solutions to consultations may go the way of charging for data
00:06:10 <olyerickson> further complicated by fact that UK part of EU
00:06:39 <PhilA> zakim, who is here?
00:06:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro
00:06:40 <Zakim> On IRC I see HadleyBeeman, tlr, olyerickson, bhyland, jkiss, chsiao, PhilA, harlanyu_, Zakim, RRSAgent, edsu, trackbot, sandro
00:06:43 <olyerickson> ... EU *guideline* is that only marginal costs should be charged for data
00:07:00 <olyerickson> ... plus a "reasonable" rate of return
00:07:15 <PhilA> zakim, what is the code?
00:07:15 <Zakim> the conference code is 26632 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), PhilA
00:07:36 <olyerickson> Further complicated by fact that e.g. Ordnance Survey largely private sector company
00:08:25 <olyerickson> Each of the Consultation documents is roughly 40 pgs long
00:09:30 <olyerickson> Hadley has no idea what will happen. While we'd like all data to be free, the reality is there is data that must be paid for
00:10:31 <olyerickson> Decision is due "early next year"
00:10:53 <Zakim> +tpac
00:11:01 <sandro> thanks!
00:11:07 <PhilA> sandrom can you hear us?
00:11:11 <PhilA> Ack
00:11:12 <sandro> yes
00:17:02 <HadleyBeeman> zakim, who is on the phone?
00:17:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, tpac
00:29:33 <PhilA> Topic: Accessibility with Jason Kiss
00:30:09 <PhilA> jkiss: open data isn't really my thing. If I weren't here, would you talk about accessibility?
00:30:31 <PhilA> Jeanne: yes accessibility of gov websites is a topic
00:31:01 <PhilA> jkiss: section 508 covers all government paid for ICT. cf. Canada it's based on human rights
00:31:19 <PhilA> jkiss: UK 2010 Equality act mandates that gov sites are accessible
00:32:07 <PhilA> ... Canada only applies to public websites. Internal ones only have to be accessible to disabled staff so it's common to see inaccessible intranets even though that would break policies
00:32:38 <PhilA> ... Australia has govt ICT councils that endorse a strategy that moves to WCAG 2. NZ has a Cabinet Minute
00:33:14 <PhilA> ... but that's still a rule and that effectively mandates public gov sites are accessible
00:34:23 <PhilA> jkiss: UN mandates accessibility too. Subject to ratification but US is holding it up. It's based on human rights principles
00:35:12 <PhilA> ... same problems exist in all gov web teams - lack of skill nad knowledge
00:35:22 <PhilA> ... also most 3rd party web development firms
00:35:33 <PhilA> ... some do very well but generally the level of skill is not good
00:36:14 <PhilA> ... intro of HTML and more JS means that web developers have more to learn. Tend to just grab what's available
00:36:30 <PhilA> ... getting levels of accessibility up is going to be a continued difficulty
00:37:09 <PhilA> ... gets more difficult when we talk about open data. Visualisation of masses of data is really good but that leaves a whole bunch of people unable to access it
00:37:41 <PhilA> ... it can't always be translated into a format that is accessible to a blind person or someone that can't easily use a mouse
00:38:19 <PhilA> Jeanne: Does it help that we're developing for devises that don't have mice?
00:39:08 <PhilA> jkiss: I'd say it helps a little.  Assistive devices translate keyboard actions etc translate actions into  mouse movements
00:39:40 <PhilA> jkiss: There's a really good Aussie assistant that is free cf. Jaws which costs %1K
00:39:54 <PhilA> s/%/$/
00:40:09 <PhilA> jkiss: it's a fully blown across the board Windows screen reader
00:40:28 <PhilA> ... for web browsing I'd say it's better than Jaws
00:40:44 <PhilA> jkiss: NVDA Non Visual Desktop Access is the tool
00:41:10 <olyerickson> olyerickson has joined #egov
00:41:36 <PhilA> olyerickson: news stories have been inaccessible to gov websites because the accessibility isn't there
00:42:58 <PhilA> ... how does accessibility hamper the new outputs?
00:43:10 <PhilA> ... and how do we need to think about visualisations?
00:43:57 <PhilA> jkiss: The Canadian govt just wrote a new standard on accessibility to replace the old one - cites WCAG 2 and the new section 508 will do the same
00:44:20 <olyerickson> "Section 508" link: http://www.section508.gov/
00:44:34 <PhilA> ... they've included some exemptions, such as for complex maps, such as radar weather maps
00:45:23 <PhilA> jkiss: there's an exemption because the tech isn't there yet to avoid an inordinate amount of work to create an alternative representayion
00:46:47 <olyerickson> "Aria" link: http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/aria
00:47:58 <PhilA> jkiss: emphasises low cost of doing accessibility at the outset cf. adding it afterwards
00:48:44 <PhilA> JH: I believe in living by the spirit, not just the letter of 508
00:49:11 <PhilA> ... when I work on any project, meeting 508 is always the last thing they think of
00:49:50 <PhilA> ... alt="planet" for a beautiful picture of Saturn doesn't quite cutr it
00:49:56 <PhilA> s/curt/cut/
00:50:25 <PhilA> jh: now we have heavily tagged images - it's a great resource
00:50:46 <olyerickson> phila: mobile is very close to accessibility
00:51:21 <olyerickson> ... if you build a mobile site, you automatically achieve (high percentage) of WCAG
00:51:57 <olyerickson> jkiss: examples include building mobile site first, then following with full site
00:52:16 <olyerickson> phila: teaches "responsible web design"
00:52:40 <olyerickson> JH: Somestimes shocked at her lack of understanding of accessibility
00:53:18 <olyerickson> ... but there are interesting exceptions, such as secondlife: everything is a map coordinate
00:54:12 <olyerickson> jh: the question is, how to deal with navigating datasets
00:54:26 <olyerickson> jkiss: format will help
00:55:06 <olyerickson> JH: Need to build out list of resources, in this case list of policies
00:55:41 <olyerickson> action: jiss to provide list on international policies and guidelines on accessibility
00:55:41 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - jiss
00:55:58 <olyerickson> action: jkiss to provide list on international policies and guidelines on accessibility
00:55:58 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - jkiss
00:56:49 <olyerickson> jkiss: the "5 nations" have expressed accessibility standards
00:57:08 <olyerickson> ... UK is least 'formalized" 
00:57:28 <olyerickson> ... UK; "directive on accessible web sites" 
00:57:55 <olyerickson> HB: Does UK work? Allows for common sense to be applied
00:58:57 <olyerickson> jkiss: WCAG-2 a leap forward from WCAG-1. Concern over loose guidance, could lead to restrictions that are not necessary
00:59:46 <olyerickson> ... some cases where stronger guidance might lead to better/more accessible results
01:00:11 <olyerickson> ... BUT if common sense is working, then that's great! 
01:01:31 <olyerickson> jkiss: common/shared services, common look and feel, etc are good things; you start off automatically accessible
01:01:59 <olyerickson> phila: Should we talk about archiving/records management? 
01:02:02 <tlr> tlr has joined #egov
01:03:13 <olyerickson> Natl Archives is chartered with all of UK records management
01:06:02 <olyerickson> BS 8878 http://bit.ly/t9CM8X
01:06:24 <olyerickson> "Draft BS 8878:2009 Web accessibility. Building accessible experiences for disabled people. Code of practice" http://bit.ly/t9CM8X
01:07:54 <olyerickson> "Cultural capital for WCAG"
01:09:55 <olyerickson> discussion of W3C recommendation imprimatur
01:10:20 <olyerickson> TOPIC: Tomorrow
01:10:27 <olyerickson> reconvience at 9a
01:11:25 <PhilA> olyerickson: I'll lead a social media free for all tomorrow morning
01:11:41 <PhilA> ... there are several issues for us to talk around
01:12:07 <PhilA> JH: The world and social media are changing
01:12:35 <PhilA> ... we should have a sense of how it impacts governments
01:13:01 <PhilA> jh: Then Anne Fitzgerald from Aus will call in to talk about licensing
01:13:15 <PhilA> ... then Bernadette will talk about the directory
01:13:31 <PhilA> ... then John is back on after lunch to talk about E&O
01:13:56 <PhilA> Meeting adjourning at 18:13
01:17:19 <PhilA> rrsagent, generate minutes
01:17:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/01-egov-minutes.html PhilA
01:19:14 <HadleyBeeman> UK's public data principles: http://data.gov.uk/blog/new-public-sector-transparency-board-and-public-data-transparency-principles
01:22:25 <PhilA> PhilA has left #egov
01:25:22 <Zakim> -tpac
01:25:23 <Zakim> -Sandro
01:25:23 <Zakim> Team_(egov)23:54Z has ended
01:25:24 <Zakim> Attendees were Sandro, tpac
01:29:50 <HadleyBeeman> HadleyBeeman has joined #egov
01:58:51 <olyerickson> olyerickson has joined #egov