Chatlog 2010-03-03

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13:58:30 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #egov
13:58:30 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/03/03-egov-irc
13:58:36 <sandro> zakim, this will be egov
13:58:36 <Zakim> "egov" matches T&S_EGOV(DMngmnt)8:00AM, and T&S_EGOV()9:00AM, sandro
13:58:48 <sandro> zakim, this will be egov()
13:58:48 <Zakim> ok, sandro; I see T&S_EGOV()9:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
13:58:55 <sandro> rrsagent, make log public
13:59:02 <sandro> chair: Kevin_Novak
13:59:46 <Zakim> T&S_EGOV()9:00AM has now started
13:59:53 <Zakim> +Cory
13:59:59 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: eGov IG http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-egov-ig/2010Mar/0002.html
14:00:29 <Cory> Cory has joined #egov
14:01:02 <Zakim> +Daniel_Bennett
14:01:29 <Zakim> +Sandro
14:02:08 <edsu> edsu has joined #egov
14:02:40 <Zakim> +CarlosI
14:02:46 <josema> zakim, CarlosI is me
14:02:46 <Zakim> +josema; got it
14:04:23 <Zakim> +[LC]
14:04:31 <edsu> Zakim, LC is edsu
14:04:31 <Zakim> +edsu; got it
14:04:43 <Daniel_Bennett> all quiet on the telephone front
14:05:22 <Zakim> -josema
14:06:52 <Zakim> + +03498429aaaa
14:06:58 <josema> zakim, aaaa is me
14:06:58 <Zakim> +josema; got it
14:07:13 <Zakim> + +1.202.626.aabb
14:08:02 <sandro> zakim, aabb is Kevin
14:08:02 <Zakim> +Kevin; got it
14:08:07 <sandro> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:08:07 <Zakim> On the phone I see Cory, Daniel_Bennett, Sandro, edsu, josema, Kevin
14:09:18 <Zakim> +Rachel
14:10:30 <Rachel> Rachel has joined #egov
14:10:45 <edsu> josema: i think i may hav run into ruben in the bar maybe :-)
14:10:46 <josema> zakim, mute me
14:10:46 <Zakim> josema should now be muted
14:10:59 <josema> @edsu: ah, yes, good :)
14:13:09 <Daniel_Bennett> and Daniel
14:13:34 <josema> http://fose.com/events/fose-2010-paid-conference/sessions/tuesday/gt2.aspx
14:14:58 <josema> http://www.gov2expo.com/gov2expo2010/public/schedule/detail/12921
14:15:07 <Zakim> + +1.303.748.aacc
14:15:53 <Daniel_Bennett> josh tauberer
14:16:06 <josema> and is josh on the call?
14:17:10 <josema> zakim, aacc is probably brian
14:17:10 <Zakim> +brian?; got it
14:17:19 <edsu> awesome, josh is a wg member now?
14:17:46 <sandro> Cory, you said last meeting that you'd scribe this one....    http://www.w3.org/egov/IG/meeting/2010-02-17#line0075
14:17:59 <Daniel_Bennett> fyi http://legalinformaticsresearch.ning.com/
14:18:14 <Zakim> -brian?
14:18:15 <josema> I don't think so, according to http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=42481&public=1
14:18:26 <josema> I know he reads the list since quite some time though
14:18:36 <annew> annew has joined #egov
14:18:39 <Zakim> + +1.303.748.aadd - is perhaps brian?
14:19:51 <josema> zakim, who's noisy?
14:20:02 <Zakim> josema, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Daniel_Bennett (42%), Kevin (28%), brian? (23%)
14:21:38 <josema>  zakim, who's here?
14:21:38 <Zakim> On the phone I see Cory, Daniel_Bennett, Sandro, edsu, josema (muted), Kevin, Rachel, brian? (muted)
14:21:40 <Zakim> On IRC I see annew, Rachel, edsu, Cory, RRSAgent, Zakim, josema, Daniel_Bennett, hughb, mhausenblas, trackbot, sandro
14:21:43 <josema> ack me
14:22:18 <josema> scribe: Cory
14:23:13 <josema> zakim, mute me
14:23:13 <Zakim> josema should now be muted
14:23:35 <edsu> got to hear john sheridan talk about data.gov.uk at the 2nd linked data london meetup last week: mentioned URI Design for UK Gov't: http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/media/308995/public_sector_uri.pdf
14:24:40 <josema> nice doc, we've been using it at CTIC, recommend people to read it
14:25:26 <sandro> omg URL vs URI vs IRI.  :-(
14:25:51 <Cory> Micheal, Karen Myers continues to look for outreach potential.  
14:26:21 <josema> s/Micheal/Michelle, Vera
14:26:21 <Cory> Cory has joined #egov
14:27:11 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/egov/IG/track/actions/open
14:27:59 <edsu> btw, anyone else interested in general overview of Linked Data London meetup last week, Pete Johnston of dublincore.org wrote up a nice overview http://efoundations.typepad.com/efoundations/2010/02/the-2nd-linked-data-london-meetup-trying-to-bridge-a-gap.html
14:28:02 <josema> writing such a doc must be tough, convincing the government to implement it is tougher ;)
14:29:01 <Cory> Rachel: Next step is march 19th public comment on idea scale use for open government
14:29:07 <Daniel_Bennett> Rachel, can you put the link up?
14:29:23 <Daniel_Bennett> chocolate chip cookie policy?
14:29:27 <Cory> Rachel: Policy on cookies: )
14:31:07 <edsu> e.g. http://epa.gov/open/
14:31:08 <Zakim> + +1.512.750.aaee
14:31:50 <Cory> Rachel: Please post your comments for open government, this is important
14:32:10 <Zakim> -brian?
14:32:41 <Zakim> + +1.303.748.aaff - is perhaps brian?
14:32:51 <Daniel_Bennett> http://www.usa.gov/webcontent/open/tool_agency_poc.shtml
14:33:13 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
14:33:13 <Zakim> On the phone I see Cory, Daniel_Bennett, Sandro, edsu, josema (muted), Kevin, Rachel, +1.512.750.aaee, brian? (muted)
14:34:12 <josema> [silona joins the call]
14:34:26 <josema> [talks about citability.org]
14:34:30 <sandro> Guest: Silona Bonewald, citability.org
14:34:52 <Cory> Cory has left #egov
14:35:17 <sandro> silona: technical solution, open, playing with everyone
14:35:20 <Cory> Cory has joined #egov
14:35:39 <edsu> -> http://dccodeathon.pbworks.com/ citability codeathon
14:36:33 <Zakim> + +1.202.270.aagg
14:41:09 <Cory> Cory has left #egov
14:41:10 <edsu> sandro: heh, that was my first question too :-)
14:41:39 <sandro> http://citability.pbworks.com/
14:41:54 <edsu> -> http://citability.pbworks.com/Citable-Documents-Specification specification
14:42:24 <sandro> http://citability.pbworks.com/Citable-Documents-Specification
14:42:31 <sandro> (yeah)
14:43:45 <Cory> Cory has joined #egov
14:44:23 <Daniel_Bennett> or pdf
14:45:08 <Daniel_Bennett> legislink can create redirects to deep links in pdf text html and xml
14:46:01 <Daniel_Bennett> rdf is semantic
14:46:08 <Daniel_Bennett> cites are about references
14:47:17 <Daniel_Bennett> so if RDFa document needs cites then there are references to points in a document separate from the semantics
14:47:46 <Daniel_Bennett> provenance
14:48:08 <Daniel_Bennett> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/
14:48:09 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/
14:48:12 <Cory> Citing of documents is related to provenance
14:48:16 <sandro> (i'm too slow again!)
14:48:22 <Daniel_Bennett> (ha)
14:49:01 <Daniel_Bennett> http://microformats.org/wiki/citation
14:49:21 <CoryB> CoryB has joined #egov
14:49:27 <Daniel_Bennett> HI ANNE
14:50:04 <Daniel_Bennett> thanks to anne for handle server for bills
14:50:32 <Cory> Anne: Big picture - how governments make data available
14:50:37 <annew> Hi Daniel
14:51:40 <Daniel_Bennett> http://thomas.loc.gov/home/handles/help.html
14:51:58 <Cory> Anne: #1 request - RSS feed for legistration
14:51:59 <Daniel_Bennett> no time stamps necessary. thanks anne
14:52:19 <Daniel_Bennett> cory, think that was silona
14:52:21 <josema> s/legistration/legislation
14:52:30 <edsu> handles are basically purls, which are basically hacks for organizations that can't manage their url namespace imho
14:52:45 <edsu> my 2 cents
14:52:58 <Daniel_Bennett> fair enough ed, but that is reality
14:53:05 <annew> Purls are different than handles in many ways however they are persistent URLS.
14:53:30 <edsu> the reality is that lots of purls and handles 404 if they aren't maintained :-)
14:53:31 <josema> I'm wondering if citability (or handles) manage versioning
14:53:45 <Rachel> Rachel has joined #egov
14:54:16 <Daniel_Bennett> however, the lack of persistence does not mean that the links can be used for metadata
14:54:44 <edsu> josema: good question, i think versioing is the interesting part of citability
14:54:45 <Daniel_Bennett> jose, rather than versioning, it looks like it relies on timestamps 
14:54:50 <annew> Handles does not manage versioning it . It manages provenance in fact. 
14:54:54 <edsu> josema: goo question for silona i mean :-)
14:54:58 <edsu> s/goo/good/
14:55:31 <josema> ok, so...
14:55:37 <josema> q+ to ask about versioning
14:56:20 <Daniel_Bennett> in the US Congress, versioning is part of of legislative reference
14:56:39 <josema> I see, it makes things easier
14:56:54 <Cory> One thing that worked well for us is having a CMS (SVN) system update the RDF store metadata
14:57:00 <josema> so far we are using versioning "W3C style" in our projects for Linked Data URIs
14:57:28 <Daniel_Bennett> fyi http://legislink.org/
14:57:31 <annew> Daniel, do you mean it is part of the legislative process?  i.e. .rh reported in house vs ih introduced in house ?
14:57:41 <josema> I mean, for the vocabularies, dataset metadata, resources...
14:57:41 <Daniel_Bennett> yes anne
14:57:48 <Cory> Summary: There are initial tools for creating citable URLS
14:58:15 <CoryB> CoryB has left #egov
14:58:19 <CoryB> CoryB has joined #egov
14:58:22 <Daniel_Bennett> and therefore no need to add versioning refs outside of the native version names ... ih rh..
14:58:38 <josema> ack me
14:58:41 <Zakim> josema, you wanted to ask about versioning
14:58:48 <Daniel_Bennett> http://advocatehope.org/tech-tidbits/embedded-citations
14:59:58 <CoryB> test
15:00:07 <sandro> bzr or git
15:00:39 <annew> about versioning of law, see Timothy Arnold Moore's work with Tasmanian, Australian & Singapore governments
15:01:05 <Cory> bzr and git are distributed, where as subversion is not
15:01:06 <edsu> annew: are you still here at LC?
15:02:00 <annew> nope
15:02:05 <edsu> annew: :-(
15:02:28 <edsu> still in dc?
15:02:59 <Daniel_Bennett> http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/law/elj/jilt/2000_1/arnold/ Tim Arnold Moore / Tasmania experience
15:03:25 <Zakim> -brian?
15:03:26 <Zakim> + +1.303.869.aahh
15:04:31 <Cory> Jose: Different approach where versioning is in URI
15:05:14 <annew> Thanks for the link Daniel.  it's actually called point-in-time legislation so you can roll back the code to a specific day. 
15:05:45 <edsu> josema: before i forget, jeni tennison and john sheridan talked a bit about their approach to versioning, uris and linked data at the london linked data meetup that i think is sumarized here http://www.jenitennison.com/blog/node/141
15:07:06 <Daniel_Bennett> hmmmm
15:07:21 <josema> a vocabulary: http://data.fundacionctic.org/vocab/asturias/empleo/oferta-formativa
15:07:41 <annew> Is there an introductory email from Silona on the listserv?
15:07:52 <josema> the version of the vocabulary on 2009-09-01: http://data.fundacionctic.org/vocab/asturias/empleo/oferta-formativa_20090901
15:08:19 <josema> as I said, "W3C style" so far, will read J&J blog, too (thanks, edsu)
15:08:36 <Daniel_Bennett> we should discuss the difference between semantic data and references to documents some time
15:09:17 <Zakim> - +1.512.750.aaee
15:09:23 <josema> [of course, http://data.fundacionctic.org/vocab/asturias/empleo/oferta-formativa.rdf ;)]
15:09:30 <Cory> No more question for Selona
15:09:46 <josema> s/Selona/Silona
15:09:50 <josema> zakim, mute me
15:09:50 <Zakim> josema should now be muted
15:10:19 <josema> [discussion on projects, attendance, how to improve]
15:12:14 <Cory> Daniel: Suggestion, combine everything into one call per week
15:12:25 <Cory> Call times are an issue
15:12:47 <josema> I'm hearing frustration, and understand it (makes me remember early IG times with Kevin)
15:14:13 <Cory> Kevin: Issues paper was done by a small group, it was a challenge 
15:14:27 <Cory> Kevin: Ends up that the leaders do it
15:15:38 <edsu> isn't http://www.w3.org/2009/06/eGov/ig-charter the charter?
15:16:04 <josema> @edsu yes
15:17:07 <josema> clear and short deliverables, KISS, release soon & release often (might work??)
15:17:28 <Daniel_Bennett> surveys lie
15:17:33 <edsu> q+ to talk about fragmentation
15:17:49 <Daniel_Bennett> good intentions vs. reality
15:17:55 <josema> [sandro mentions the disconnect between WBS results and people participation]
15:17:59 <josema> and I agree
15:18:00 <Cory> Sandro: Diconnect between survey and participation
15:18:27 <Daniel_Bennett> +1 jose KISS and quick deliverables
15:18:30 <josema> well framed, daniel
15:21:09 <josema> q?
15:21:43 <Cory> Rachel: People want to be in the loop, but don't have time.  Need practical things for people to do
15:22:28 <sandro> rachel: People wont respond to "we need help".   They will respond to a specific request for something they can do to help.   A task and due date.
15:22:33 <sandro> (absolutely...)
15:22:34 <Cory> Rachel: Give them tasks and due date
15:23:13 <sandro> rachel: unless they feel their time is going to be very well spent, they wont just come and talk.
15:23:38 <sandro> rachel: don't sit around waiting, go ahead and write stuff.
15:23:39 <edsu> Rachel++ # good advice
15:23:47 <josema> q?
15:24:48 <edsu> heh, i'll interject :-)
15:24:50 <Zakim> - +1.202.270.aagg
15:24:59 <josema> you should! :)
15:25:17 <edsu> this is good stuff though, don't won't to break it up
15:26:00 <Cory> Group: Seeding the wiki and controversial content will get people going
15:26:28 <edsu> :-)
15:26:52 <sandro> daniel: We need to start the document justifying why government data should be stored on microfiche  :-)
15:27:45 <annew> sandro: LOL
15:29:06 <josema> feeds, uh? here you have a few http://www.netvibes.com/w3cegov :)
15:30:27 <josema> +1 on coordinators blogging on W3C eGov Blog (good idea, Sandro)
15:30:37 <edsu> i wonder if we could aggregate other egov folks blogs (planet-style)
15:31:18 <josema> @edsu likely, there's the always pending discussion about the W3C eGov home page (we were supposed to change it completely, then started to discuss wikipedia, then...)
15:31:26 <edsu> http://www.planetplanet.org/
15:32:20 <Cory> Suggestion that we have a project focus after each general egov phone call
15:32:43 <Cory> Daniel: Coordinators can then call meetings.
15:34:05 <Daniel_Bennett> kevin, rachel, john, do we have a meeting to discuss FOSE soon?
15:34:06 <edsu> josema: seeya
15:34:11 <Daniel_Bennett> ciao jose
15:34:32 <josema> zakim, list attendees
15:34:32 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Cory, Daniel_Bennett, Sandro, josema, edsu, +03498429aaaa, +1.202.626.aabb, Kevin, Rachel, +1.303.748.aacc, brian?, +1.303.748.aadd,
15:34:36 <Zakim> ... +1.512.750.aaee, +1.303.748.aaff, +1.202.270.aagg, +1.303.869.aahh
15:34:38 <annew> byebye
15:34:41 <Daniel_Bennett> and then drinks/dinner afterward?
15:34:47 <sandro> ciao, annew !
15:34:57 <josema> bye
15:34:59 <Zakim> -josema
15:35:04 <Daniel_Bennett> ciao anne wash
15:36:07 <Cory> Conclusion: Group will "defragment" for a while
15:37:25 <Daniel_Bennett> but groups should still report SOW (statement of work) by next meeting
15:37:26 <sandro> sandro: I'll assume that unless the group coordinators tell me about a meeting, they wont be meeting.
15:41:57 <edsu> if we had action items, and had to come in here and report on them, i think we would get some traction
15:42:07 <Daniel_Bennett> wait and see the attention on the Microfiche idea and using cuneiform rather than XML light up the Project
15:42:15 <Daniel_Bennett> ;-)
15:42:30 <Daniel_Bennett> +1 ed
15:42:46 <sandro> kevin: consensus is -- at the task group level, try to get something done; coordinate with Sandro if you want a telecon
15:42:56 <edsu> Daniel_Bennett: maybe we could use a memex subgroup? ;->
15:43:17 <Daniel_Bennett> +3 ed
15:45:13 <Daniel_Bennett> fyi, 15mins over on call
15:45:54 <Daniel_Bennett> bye
15:45:55 <Zakim> - +1.303.869.aahh
15:45:57 <Zakim> -edsu
15:45:59 <Zakim> -Rachel
15:46:00 <Zakim> -Sandro
15:46:04 <Zakim> -Kevin
15:46:12 <edsu> edsu has left #egov
15:46:17 <Zakim> -Daniel_Bennett
15:46:56 <Cory> Joint meeting with OMG-Egov - Thursady, March 25th @ 1:30
15:47:01 <Cory> bye
15:47:13 <CoryB> CoryB has left #egov
15:47:29 <Zakim> -Cory
15:47:30 <Zakim> T&S_EGOV()9:00AM has ended
15:47:31 <Zakim> Attendees were Cory, Daniel_Bennett, Sandro, josema, edsu, +03498429aaaa, +1.202.626.aabb, Kevin, Rachel, +1.303.748.aacc, brian?, +1.303.748.aadd, +1.512.750.aaee,
15:47:33 <Zakim> ... +1.303.748.aaff, +1.202.270.aagg, +1.303.869.aahh
16:48:21 <Chris> Chris has joined #egov
16:49:19 <Chris> Morning
17:05:01 <Chris> trackbot-ng
17:05:11 <Chris> trackbot-ng, start telcon
17:05:14 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
17:05:16 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be EGOV
17:05:16 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see T&S_EGOV(UseWebTech)12:00PM scheduled to start 5 minutes ago
17:05:17 <trackbot> Meeting: eGovernment Interest Group Teleconference
17:05:17 <trackbot> Date: 03 March 2010
17:09:02 <Zakim> T&S_EGOV(UseWebTech)12:00PM has now started
17:09:10 <Zakim> + +61.4.286.0.aaaa
17:09:50 <Chris> scribe: Chris
17:15:32 <Chris> this [conference] is <UseWebTech>
17:15:52 <Chris> zakim, list conferences
17:15:52 <Zakim> I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM, WAI_PF()12:00PM, INC_SWXG()11:00AM, T&S_EGOV(UseWebTech)12:00PM, VB_VBWG(SCXML)12:00PM active
17:15:57 <Zakim> also scheduled at this time are GA_WebCGM()11:00AM, XML_EXI()12:30PM, I18N_CoreWG()12:30PM
17:16:17 <Chris> zakim, this is UseWebTech
17:16:17 <Zakim> Chris, this was already T&S_EGOV(UseWebTech)12:00PM
17:16:18 <Zakim> ok, Chris; that matches T&S_EGOV(UseWebTech)12:00PM
17:16:36 <Chris> zakim, who's here
17:16:36 <Zakim> Chris, you need to end that query with '?'
17:16:42 <Chris> zakim, who's here?
17:16:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see +61.4.286.0.aaaa
17:16:43 <Zakim> On IRC I see Chris, RRSAgent, Zakim, josema, hughb, trackbot, sandro
17:17:43 <Chris> zakim, +61.4.286.0.aaaa is Chris
17:17:43 <Zakim> +Chris; got it
17:28:35 <sandro> ah well.   :-(
17:28:55 <Chris> yeah - hanging for 5 more - Brian emailed to say he'd be late
17:29:33 <sandro> in the IG meeting today, we basically agreed to only have these other calls when/if needed.      clearly people don't want to just talk.
17:30:17 <Chris> Discussion forum might be an option - I'll make one and see if it generates interest
17:31:09 <Chris> If nothing else, it was good to get my head around Zakim, the bridge etc.
17:31:32 <Chris> Means you have another scribe for the IG calls :)
17:34:13 <Zakim> -Chris
17:34:14 <Zakim> T&S_EGOV(UseWebTech)12:00PM has ended
17:34:14 <Zakim> Attendees were Chris
17:35:19 <Chris> Talk later :) Catching a few more hours sleep
19:48:19 <Zakim> Zakim has left #egov
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