Chatlog 2010-01-06

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<sandro> Guest: Karen Myers, W3C
<sandro> Guest: Yolanda Gil, ISI
<sandro> Topic: Next Meetings, Scribe
<sandro> Chair: Kevin, Sandro
<sandro> Present: Anne_Washington, Brand_Niemann, Brian_Gryth, Chris_Beer, Cory_Casanave, Daniel_Bennett, Ed_Summers, George_Thomas, Joe_Carmel, John_Sheridan, Ken_Fischer, Kevin_Novak, Sandro_Hawke, Thomas_Bandholtz
13:57:17 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #egov
13:57:17 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/01/06-egov-irc
13:57:22 <Zakim> T&S_EGOV()9:00AM has now started
13:57:22 <sandro> RRSAgent, make record public
13:57:30 <Zakim> + +49.178.404.aaaa
13:58:11 <Cory> Cory has joined #egov
13:58:42 <johnlsheridan> johnlsheridan has joined #egov
13:59:30 <sandro> zakim, what is the code?
13:59:30 <Zakim> the conference code is 3468 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), sandro
13:59:46 <Zakim> +Sandro
14:00:03 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call
14:00:03 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the call', sandro
14:00:05 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
14:00:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see +49.178.404.aaaa, Sandro
14:00:11 <sandro> zakim, aaaa is Thomas
14:00:11 <Zakim> +Thomas; got it
14:00:26 <edsu> edsu has joined #egov
14:01:17 <Zakim> +??P11
14:01:18 <Zakim> + +1.703.880.aabb
14:01:49 <sandro> zakim, aabb is Cory
14:01:49 <Zakim> +Cory; got it
14:01:54 <Zakim> + +1.703.994.aacc
14:01:59 <george> george has joined #egov
14:02:03 <sandro> zakim, P11 is johnlsheridan 
14:02:03 <Zakim> sorry, sandro, I do not recognize a party named 'P11'
14:02:07 <sandro> zakim, ??P11 is johnlsheridan 
14:02:07 <Zakim> +johnlsheridan; got it
14:02:17 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
14:02:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see Thomas, Sandro, johnlsheridan, Cory, +1.703.994.aacc
14:02:29 <Zakim> +[LC]
14:02:41 <edsu> Zakim, LC is edsu
14:02:41 <Zakim> +edsu; got it
14:02:47 <george> i'll be on the phone shortly
14:02:52 <sandro> zakim, aacc is Ken
14:02:52 <Zakim> +Ken; got it
14:03:14 <johnlsheridan> zakim, mute me
14:03:14 <Zakim> johnlsheridan should now be muted
14:03:19 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
14:03:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see Thomas, Sandro, johnlsheridan (muted), Cory, Ken, edsu
14:03:28 <Daniel_Bennett> Daniel_Bennett has joined #egov
14:03:30 <johnlsheridan> I'm sure you don't want to hear me coughing....
14:03:37 <johnlsheridan> So will be mostly muted
14:04:17 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: eGov 6 Jan http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-egov-ig/2010Jan/0007
14:04:41 <Zakim> +Brian
14:04:49 <johnlsheridan> I can scribe
14:04:53 <Zakim> +Kevin
14:04:56 <sandro> scribe: Cory
14:05:24 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
14:05:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see Thomas, Sandro, johnlsheridan (muted), Cory, Ken, edsu, Brian, Kevin
14:05:34 <Zakim> +Daniel_Bennett
14:06:14 <Zakim> -Brian
14:07:03 <Daniel_Bennett> Daniel volunteers to scribe next meeting
14:07:09 <Daniel_Bennett> for Jan 20
14:07:27 <Daniel_Bennett> no prob
14:07:30 <Karen> Karen has joined #egov
14:07:33 <johnlsheridan> thanks Daniel
14:08:09 <Zakim> +Brian
14:08:13 <johnlsheridan> unmute me
14:08:22 <sandro> zakim, unmute johnlsheridan 
14:08:22 <Zakim> johnlsheridan should no longer be muted
<sandro> topic: Action Review
14:08:36 <sandro> action-14?
14:08:36 <trackbot> ACTION-14 -- John Sheridan to share how he justified the business decision of becoming W3C Members -- due 2008-10-30 -- OPEN
14:08:36 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2007/eGov/IG/track/actions/14
14:09:02 <sandro> action-82, eGov web page deisgn for outreach
14:09:05 <johnlsheridan> zakim, mute me
14:09:05 <Zakim> johnlsheridan should now be muted
14:10:10 <sandro> topic: Our Website
14:10:40 <Zakim> +Karen_Myers
# 14:11:12 <ChrisBeer> Topic: website?
14:13:00 <sandro> daniel: Let's use the w3.org design
14:13:27 <sandro> daniel: Need design and requirements as well as branding and look of W3c sites.  Should start with content decisions.
14:13:33 <Zakim> + +1.202.690.aadd
14:13:43 <Zakim> + +1.202.564.aaee
14:13:58 <george> just joined the call
14:14:28 <sandro> george, which one is you, +1.202.690.aadd  or  +1.202.564.aaee ?
14:14:32 <joec> joec has joined #egov
14:14:40 <Karen> +1 web site as staging/image/visibility
14:15:42 <Zakim> +joec
14:16:47 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
<cory> Sandro: Use of Wikipedia as a public face, in combination with the W3C materials.  
14:17:00 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Daniel_Bennett (30%), Brian (43%)
14:17:05 <joec> that was daniel i think
14:17:18 <Daniel_Bennett>  yes, that was Daniel
14:17:39 <sandro> Daniel: We should use both Wikipedia and the w3.org site, [lots of details]
<cory> Brian: Use W3C page for more of assertion of best practice.  Wikiepedia more of a general introduction.
14:17:48 <george> sandro - i'm 202.690
14:17:58 <sandro> zakim, aadd is George
14:17:58 <Zakim> +George; got it
14:18:01 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
14:18:01 <Zakim> On the phone I see Thomas, Sandro, johnlsheridan (muted), Cory, Ken, edsu, Kevin, Daniel_Bennett, Brian, Karen_Myers, George, +1.202.564.aaee, joec
14:20:41 <Daniel_Bennett> fyi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:USBill
14:20:56 <annew> annew has joined #egov
14:21:04 <sandro> Daniel: we're only like ten people; there are lots more people passing through wikipedia pages
14:21:24 <Daniel_Bennett> that was Joe, Sandro
14:21:34 <sandro> kenf: We could open up our mediawiki to everyone.
14:21:45 <sandro> s/someone/joe/
14:22:10 <sandro> joe: Almost every site I found, like Josh's site on open gov data, ...   they all require logins.
14:23:03 <ChrisBeer> That is actually I think a better open (@ken) IMO - we can't really self reference or write "original research" things on Wikipedia, however, we can write on mediawiki and use our work as references and links within the appropriate articles.
14:23:10 <Karen> Sandro: if our community was active and monitoring
14:24:05 <sandro> kevin: Maybe double-posting between wikipedia AND our wiki
14:24:15 <ChrisBeer> All sites need logins - anon. edits on wikipedia tend to be scrutinised and aren't liked that much within the community unless its an obvious correction done by someone on the fly
14:24:22 <sandro> joe: Yes, if our stuff is valuable, we should put it there.
14:24:36 <Daniel_Bennett> yes, we should cite w3c when appropriate. especially to the standards
14:24:45 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:25:43 <Daniel_Bennett> our web site is staging ground and our work and then help with the wikipedia
14:26:18 <Daniel_Bennett> we dont need to worry about the wikipedia pages since it will take care of itself
14:26:57 <sandro> sandro: I hear consensus that we should maintain our wiki (not anonymous) and also help with some wikipedia pages
14:27:15 <Daniel_Bennett> +sandro
14:27:40 <ChrisBeer> +1 Daniel - wikipeida not really that good as a sandbox - combo of w3c mediawiki + blog + twit and good seo etc should get collaborators in - finished work on Wikipedia + identified pages that we should assist with. +1 sandro
14:27:59 <sandro> sandro: Lets make a wikipedia page on our wiki listing the pages we're thinking about, and related issues.
14:28:22 <ChrisBeer> Under projects?
14:28:46 <Daniel_Bennett> yes, link to all relevant wikipedia pages that we think should be linked to. building a "web" of ...
<cory> Sandro: Conclusion; Use both, balance TBD.  But both will be mediawiki.  Have W3C page that links back to Wikipedia.  All IG pages will be migrated to mediawiki.
<cory> Daniel: Still need web content design prior to starting work.
14:29:24 <sandro> action: sandro move IG pages to mediawiki - due 2010-01-31
14:29:24 <trackbot> Created ACTION-95 - move IG pages to mediawiki [on Sandro Hawke - due 2010-01-31].
14:30:29 <sandro> cory: Let's have a session where we sketch out an outline
14:31:01 <sandro> daniel: I think the site design needs to follow knowing what we're doing
14:31:05 <ChrisBeer> http://www.w3.org/2007/eGov/IG/wiki/Projects/Wikipedia_Pages_of_Interest/
14:32:05 <sandro> +1 ChrisBeer 
14:32:28 <sandro> Errrr, I don't think it should have "Projects" in there, though, Chris.
14:33:15 <sandro> and the trailing slash, Chris ??
14:34:14 <sandro> kevin: After we've done the Projects poll, let's turn it over to the ETF to come up with the information archietcure.
14:34:26 <sandro> kevin: Let's come back to this, seriously, on the 20th.
<sandro> topic: Action Review (cont)
14:34:47 <sandro> close action-82
14:34:47 <trackbot> ACTION-82 Take a look at eGov home design closed
14:34:50 <sandro> close action-83
14:34:50 <trackbot> ACTION-83 Take a look at eGov home design closed
14:35:15 <sandro> close action-91
14:35:15 <trackbot> ACTION-91 Organize informal meeting of IG members at TPAC closed
14:35:26 <sandro> action-92?
14:35:26 <trackbot> ACTION-92 -- Kevin Novak to put out call for volunteers to survey agencies for those most ready for next steps in creating open data projects -- due 2009-09-30 -- OPEN
14:35:26 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2007/eGov/IG/track/actions/92
14:35:35 <sandro> close action-92
14:35:35 <trackbot> ACTION-92 put out call for volunteers to survey agencies for those most ready for next steps in creating open data projects closed
14:36:11 <sandro> close action-93 
14:36:11 <trackbot> ACTION-93 investigate and report back WYSIWYG editor wiki options closed
14:36:32 <sandro> close action-94
14:36:32 <trackbot> ACTION-94 Send mail to the group about wikipedia ideas closed
14:36:40 <ChrisBeer> @sandro Sorry - was replying to mail - added under projects because I saw Daniel reply yes to my question of "under projects?". (and it is kind of a project in that sense). Trailing slash because its 1.30 am :) will fix
14:37:13 <sandro> close action-33
14:37:13 <trackbot> ACTION-33 Draft XML Schema for DRM as use case to use it for 10. What data? closed
14:37:37 <ChrisBeer> (how does http://www.w3.org/2007/eGov/IG/wiki/Wikipedia_Pages_of_Interest sound - better?)
14:37:41 <sandro> topic: Project Poll
14:37:43 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/project-signup/
<sandro> sandro: Hey, great, we've had a lot of responses already.  
<sandro> sandro: If you haven't done it yet, do it now!
14:38:47 <Zakim> -Brian
14:39:23 <sandro> topic: Events
14:39:28 <Zakim> +Brian
14:39:36 <Zakim> + +1.410.975.aaff
14:39:50 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
14:39:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see Thomas, Sandro, johnlsheridan (muted), Cory, Ken, edsu, Kevin, Daniel_Bennett, Karen_Myers, George, +1.202.564.aaee, joec, [IPcaller], Brian (muted),
14:39:53 <Zakim> ... +1.410.975.aaff
14:41:22 <Karen> Kevin: FOSE panel accepted for this March
14:41:32 <Karen> ...we are submitting for O'Reilly
14:41:42 <Karen> ...and let us know about other opportunities
14:42:04 <sandro> zakim, aaee is Brand
14:42:04 <Zakim> +Brand; got it
14:42:19 <sandro> zakim, aaff is Jim
14:42:19 <Zakim> +Jim; got it
14:42:53 <sandro> zakim, who is the call?
14:42:53 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, sandro.
14:43:13 <sandro> topic: George's GLD IT Dashboard Demo
<cory> George: Introduction (HHS and OMB): IT Dashboard & GLD demo.
<cory> George: Has a lot of information about I.T. investments but not reasons.  Use semantic technologies connection what we are doing with why.  Prototype using freebase – I.T. dashboard connected to OMG business motivation standard for “why”.  Imported into semantic mediawiki. May be part of what HHS proposes to open gov project.  Shows social media combined with RDF goodness
<cory> See project here: http://www.w3.org/2007/eGov/IG/wiki/Projects#GLD_Demo
14:45:26 <ChrisBeer> (FYI http://www.w3.org/2007/eGov/IG/wiki/Wikipedia_Pages_of_Interest created and added to Main page as link)
14:46:31 <Zakim> +??P27
14:48:15 <ChrisBeer> George has been busy :)
14:48:29 <sandro> indeed he has!
14:49:36 <johnlsheridan> this is good to hear George :)
14:50:07 <ChrisBeer> I left some initial late night comments on his SDW page, but I think we def need some other demo's that equal his efforts, but in a non-US centric example. I saw Thomas sent a Euro suggestion to the list :)
14:50:15 <edsu> george++ :-)
14:50:26 <annew> Way to go George
14:52:06 <Daniel_Bennett> what is the link?
14:52:52 <sandro> zakim, who is making noise?
14:52:57 <ChrisBeer> @george how long till Bizmo is fully fleshed out?
14:53:03 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
14:53:23 <ChrisBeer> @daniel read http://www.w3.org/2007/eGov/IG/wiki/Projects under Demo project, also try http://bizmo.freebase.com/
14:54:00 <sandro> george: interested in moving beyond freebase, maybe trying virtuoso, maybe experts doing better modeling, ....
<cory> Sandro: George, how can others be involved?
14:54:21 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
14:54:21 <Zakim> On the phone I see Thomas, Sandro, johnlsheridan (muted), Cory, Ken, edsu, Kevin, Daniel_Bennett, Karen_Myers, George, Brand, joec, [IPcaller], Brian (muted), Jim, ??P27
14:54:41 <sandro> zakim, who is making noise?
14:54:51 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: George (40%)
14:55:25 <Daniel_Bennett> ooooh UML?
14:55:51 <ChrisBeer> @george Still - the concepts are sound and for demo purposes could be ported to any engine/model
14:56:12 <Daniel_Bennett> is there that link to UML and XML Schemas you mentioned George?
14:56:26 <johnlsheridan> Jeni Tennison's five part blog posting is pretty good on this wrt gov linked data. See: http://www.jenitennison.com/blog/node/135 for the first part
14:56:58 <Cory> Publishing data (including models) is where we are doing on this open source project: http://portal.modeldriven.org/project/EKB
14:57:01 <Daniel_Bennett> or convert StratML to RDFa so it is also human readable
14:57:53 <Karen> +1 make the case of benefits and demo
14:57:57 <Zakim> -Kevin
14:58:06 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
14:58:10 <Daniel_Bennett> idea for Owen, add embedded self cites to StratML
14:58:14 <sandro> Kevin and Owen running off to other meetings
14:58:33 <johnlsheridan> +1 re use-case
14:59:03 <ChrisBeer> (Actually - big up to John LS :) Saw the Archives persistant link system for .gov.uk pages :) very nice, great LGD example in its own way
14:59:30 <edsu> ChrisBeer: url?
14:59:35 <Zakim> +??P31
14:59:54 <Karen> RPI's project
14:59:56 <ChrisBeer> Am just looking - it's on work comp though (history) - hang on
15:00:14 <sandro> (RPI = Rensselaer == where Jim Hendler is)
<cory> RPI Project for open gov data is Tetherless world
15:00:40 <johnlsheridan> edsu - see http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/news/392.htm
15:01:06 <edsu> johnlsheridan: cheers
15:01:15 <annew> is it cambridge semantics who does cvs 2 rdf?
15:01:28 <Daniel_Bennett> please add URLs for each of the examples here.
15:01:48 <ChrisBeer> (@john cheers)
15:01:48 <johnlsheridan> q+
15:01:55 <sandro> yes, Cambridge Semantics has a product connecting spreadsheets to RDF
<cory> Summary: Multiple tools for getting into RDF.
15:02:06 <johnlsheridan> zakim, unmute me
15:02:14 <Zakim> johnlsheridan should no longer be muted
15:02:44 <Karen> W3C-XBRL WOrkshop Link:
15:02:44 <Daniel_Bennett> where on the agenda are we?
15:02:45 <Karen> http://www.w3.org/2009/03/xbrl/cfp.html
15:03:01 <sandro> Daniel_Bennett, we're nominally still in the Demo section.
15:03:04 <annew> who is speaking?
15:03:10 <joec> brand
15:03:24 <Daniel_Bennett> Walter Hamscher, US Securities and Exchange Commission
15:03:34 <annew> thanks
15:04:34 <sandro> george: When a CIO hears this conversation, they're not interesting in a company that can solve their problems.  They want to know how and why it works.    This group needs to demonstrate how this works, not the tools.
15:04:46 <sandro> who is talking?
15:04:49 <Daniel_Bennett> we need to help techies talk to policy folks, use cases vs. geeky talk
15:05:11 <Karen> Cambridge Semantics Presentation on spreadsheets; XBRL and SemWeb:
15:05:12 <Karen> http://www.w3.org/2009/03/xbrl/talks/Michael-Cataldo.pdf
15:05:13 <Daniel_Bennett> please announce yourselves to the group
15:05:49 <sandro> rofl
15:06:08 <sandro> brand: cloud computing will be a rainmaker
15:06:09 <johnlsheridan> I would agree with George, I thought he put it very well - the need to clearly demonstrate benefits in the context of a real use-case
15:06:16 <Daniel_Bennett> +1 annew
<cory> When talking to gov people, need to separate concerns of why and how, they need to understand the value and trust that it can be done. Others then need links to how to do it.
<george> +1
15:06:16 <ChrisBeer> (another suggestion for "case" demo - the current world wide linking of gov publications through libraries - its old tech, but perfect example of GLD based around publications)
15:06:28 <Karen> +1 good discussion George
15:06:31 <johnlsheridan> thanks George!
15:06:38 <ChrisBeer> +1 john
15:06:44 <annew> I think the title was cloud computing with a chance of semantics. LOL
<sandro> topic: Provenance Incubator group
<cory> Yolanda: Chair of provenance group, introduces group and defines problem space.
15:07:04 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/
15:07:04 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Provenance_Survey
15:07:04 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Provenance_Dimensions
15:07:04 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Use_Cases
15:07:04 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Use_Cases#Exemplifying_Provenance_Dimensions_with_Use_Cases

15:07:24 <george> thank you all - i look forward to exploring more with all
<cory> Yolanda: Goals, Understanding state of art and requirements for provenance on the web.  Way to capture, for any piece of information, how it came about – who, why, process, authority and such for judgments about trust.  How to handle inconsistency or conflict in data.  Applies across may domains of interest.  Gov interest group input would be appreciated.  There has been a lot of research in this areas.
<cory> Yolanda: Provenance dimensions: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Provenance_Dimensions
<cory> Dimensions : Management, Polices, Scale, Use, Acountability, Trust jugements
<cory> Yolanda: Enumerated set of use cases. http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Use_Cases
15:07:36 <ChrisBeer> I would put forward libraries as a good case study in that sense - has practical and obvious benefits, is already in use, is currently being made semantic.
15:07:39 <Daniel_Bennett> Provenance has interesting overlaps with us
<cory> Joe: Considering digital signatures (Gov printing office)- would make a good use case.
<cory> Yolanda: Don’t have that use case yet, but have discussed it.
15:08:01 <Zakim> -Brand
15:08:22 <johnlsheridan> zakim, mute me
15:08:22 <Zakim> johnlsheridan should now be muted
15:11:13 <Daniel_Bennett> and for the public, the provenance of govt data is quite important, especially as the data is echoed through gov sites and non-gov sites
15:12:25 <Daniel_Bennett> and as legacy data is copied from paper or old proprietary formats to electronic open standard formats.
15:12:32 <ChrisBeer> and yet how many (for instance) PDF files produced by .gov.* are digitially signed for instance - my experience is that solving prov. is as much about a shift in public sector culture as it is about tech
15:12:51 <Cory> Don't need to sell me, need to know how we are going to support this in semweb!
15:12:59 <ChrisBeer> (oh - rhetorical - not many .gov files are signed)
15:13:26 <ChrisBeer> <content> <has digisig> <value> :)
15:13:53 <Cory> <content> is graph, resource or triple?
15:14:23 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Provenance_Dimensions
15:14:54 <Daniel_Bennett> digital signatures is a closed system that can be helpful or not. I would say having a web of echoes and references around the web can be really valuable whether or not hashes or sigs are included.
15:15:03 <ChrisBeer> @Cory - has to be resource, or instance of resource (a "copy" in a publications sense) if its a file. signing a dataset presents its own prov. probs.
15:16:05 <Daniel_Bennett> another reason to make government data easier to copy and reference.
15:16:16 <ChrisBeer> @Daniel - Prov is linked to trust - public only cares if the information is "official" or not - echoes and refs not simple enough
15:16:36 <ChrisBeer> *simply
15:16:50 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Use_Cases
15:16:51 <Cory> But a resource is not owned by any particular graph,
15:17:19 <sandro> wow, that's a lot of use cases....
15:18:00 <Daniel_Bennett> hmmm. i think that most people prefer easy to find data than "signed" documents. "trust" is usually oft repeated, but usually a secondary process when a problem arises.
15:18:26 <Daniel_Bennett> also most data is granular and is hard to sign each datum.
15:18:27 <johnlsheridan> zakim, unmute me
15:18:27 <Zakim> johnlsheridan should no longer be muted
15:18:56 <sandro> joe: digital signatures?
15:19:12 <sandro> yolanda: it's not a use case for us, but it's important
15:19:36 <annew> digital signatures for public laws as well as bills from the 110th congress
15:19:40 <Daniel_Bennett> no one can keep john from speaking up. UNMUTE JOHN!
15:19:42 <ChrisBeer> @Cory + @Daniel - think like a user, all other prov issues aside - public either wants first hand data/files/info from a .gov.* domain (which by inference is always "official") or if viewing second hand and wanting verfication of .gov.* prov, will check on .gov.* anyway
15:19:47 <sandro> Joe_carmel: Gov't printing office GPO 
15:19:48 <sandro>  Yolanda Gil <gil@ISI.EDU>
15:20:01 <Daniel_Bennett> 10 mins left
15:20:05 <johnlsheridan> q+
15:21:08 <Daniel_Bennett> +1 liaison with Provenance Incubator group
15:21:11 <sandro> cory: The Semantic Web stack needs some new standard here
15:21:17 <edsu> some more info about gpo and digital signatures: http://www.gpo.gov/help/authentication_of_information.htm
15:21:23 <sandro> yolanda: this group will run until september
15:21:46 <annew> +q 
15:21:49 <sandro> ack johnlsheridan 
15:21:52 <ChrisBeer> +1 daniel - Prov + .gov.* + SM is a major issue we could use input on
15:23:31 <ChrisBeer> (@edsu - thanks - I'll be waving that around a work tomorrow :) )
15:23:35 <sandro> johnlsheridan: the kind of data publishing we're doing requires provenance tracking, especially through transforms.    your uses capture this well.   This is important work.
15:24:25 <sandro> johnlsheridan: We've experimented with this for RDF haven't settled on a solution/approach yet.   We're going to need to do much more, and quickly.
15:24:37 <sandro> yolanda: What vocabs?
15:24:49 <sandro> johnlsheridan: "Provance Vocabular" and "Open Provenance Model":
15:25:00 <sandro> q?
15:25:08 <edsu> http://purl.org/net/provenance/ ?
15:25:33 <johnlsheridan> yup
15:25:36 <sandro> yolanda: They should be somewhere on our wiki....
15:25:36 <Daniel_Bennett> thinks we should look at Dublin Core as important to this
15:25:58 <sandro> zakim, who is here?
15:25:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see Thomas, Sandro, johnlsheridan, Cory, Ken, edsu, Daniel_Bennett, Karen_Myers, George, joec, Brian (muted), ??P27, ??P31
15:26:00 <johnlsheridan> sure, dc terms, but how far do we stretch them
15:26:01 <Zakim> On IRC I see annew, joec, Karen, Daniel_Bennett, george, edsu, johnlsheridan, Cory, RRSAgent, Zakim, tb, ChrisBeer, hughb, trackbot, sandro
15:26:06 <Zakim> -ThomasB
15:26:19 <edsu> johnlsheridan: you work with jeni at the uk archives right? http://www.jenitennison.com/blog/node/133
15:26:24 <sandro> ack annew 
15:26:26 <Cory> DC seems unusable, as the people are not resources
15:26:37 <johnlsheridan> Yes, Jeni is doing some work for me
15:26:57 <sandro> annew: A whole body of work of digitigal archivists from UCLA, eScience, lets have a longer conversation
15:27:03 <Daniel_Bennett> first is to promote just using Dublin Core, author, pub, license, and using permanent URLs is a good start. 
15:27:17 <sandro> yolanda: talking to ....
15:27:20 <johnlsheridan> +1 Daniel
15:27:32 <joec> DDMS is a US government mil spec extending Dublin Core for governments
15:27:32 <johnlsheridan> Thanks Yolanda!
15:27:36 <ChrisBeer> @John thinking about @Daniel's comment on DC - would actually recommend you explore RDA - already mapped to DC and it will be Pubs/Archive specific
15:27:42 <annew> Annewas to escience activity at UCLA and the digital archive research
15:27:55 <annew> *Anne's reference was 
15:28:01 <edsu> Daniel_Bennett: agreed
15:29:06 <annew> UCLA earlier research http://www.gseis.ucla.edu/us-interpares/
15:29:11 <johnlsheridan> there is a really tight synergy with gov linked data
15:29:29 <sandro> Daniel_Bennett: let's just attend each other's meetings
15:29:39 <annew> InterPARES (International Project on Permanent Authentic Records in Electronic Systems)
15:30:00 <Daniel_Bennett> not just- at least
15:30:05 <sandro> yolanda: 4 overlap between Prov and HCLS; but no person overlap with eGov yet
15:31:12 <ChrisBeer> @John http://dublincore.org/groups/libraries/rda/
15:32:27 <sandro> yolanda: first F2F probably at WWW, in North Carolina in ?April?
15:32:38 <edsu> apr 26-30 ; http://www2010.org/www/
15:32:46 <Zakim> -Brian
15:32:46 <annew> thanks yolanda!
15:32:47 <sandro> ADJOURN
<sandro> topic: After-Meeting Chatter
15:32:52 <Zakim> -KenF
15:32:53 <Zakim> -joec
15:32:53 <Zakim> -Karen_Myers
15:32:54 <Zakim> -George
15:32:54 <Zakim> -johnlsheridan
15:32:57 <Zakim> -??P31
15:32:59 <Zakim> -edsu
15:33:01 <Zakim> -Sandro
15:33:04 <Zakim> -??P27
15:33:14 <Daniel_Bennett> hmm. ok bye.
15:33:18 <edsu> :-)
15:33:20 <ChrisBeer> @John RDA takes transforms into account too I believe, in the sense that it diffs between abstract "source" and copies in any format
15:33:22 <Zakim> -Daniel_Bennett
15:33:36 <annew> somebody turn off the lights! bye
15:33:47 <johnlsheridan> thanks @chris
15:33:52 <Daniel_Bennett> but still on IRC. where the real convos happen ;-)
15:33:53 <edsu> ChrisBeer: my personal opinion is that it's early days for rda
15:33:55 <sandro> there is a motion sensor.  they got off by themselves.  :-)
15:34:11 <edsu> ChrisBeer: and it's also very library/print oriented
15:34:42 <ChrisBeer> @Sandro - "Resource Description and Access" (RDA) is a new content standard for resource description being developed on the foundations of library cataloguing practice established in the Anglo-American Cataloguing Rules (AACR).
15:34:44 <Daniel_Bennett> see link that Chris put up: http://dublincore.org/groups/libraries/rda/
15:34:59 <edsu> sandro, it's a big tome of new international cataloging rules, that is getting expressed somewhat as rdf vocabulary by folks in the dublin core community
15:35:07 <ChrisBeer> @Sandro - basically it's new SemWeb standard focused on publications
15:35:35 <ChrisBeer> Geared towards digital content as well
15:35:49 <edsu> ChrisBeer: somewhat yes, but that's not its focus
15:36:05 <edsu> at least in my limited understanding :-)
15:38:09 <ChrisBeer> It's a big part of why they moved from MARC21 in my (also limitied) understanding. However it is definately geared towards archiving and cataloguing of any publication, so it complements other core semweb techs nicely
15:38:23 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, Cory, in T&S_EGOV()9:00AM
15:38:27 <Zakim> T&S_EGOV()9:00AM has ended
15:38:29 <Zakim> Attendees were +49.178.404.aaaa, Sandro, Thomas, +1.703.880.aabb, Cory, +1.703.994.aacc, johnlsheridan, edsu, Ken, Brian, Kevin, Daniel_Bennett, Karen_Myers, +1.202.690.aadd,
15:38:32 <Zakim> ... +1.202.564.aaee, joec, George, [IPcaller], +1.410.975.aaff, Brand, Jim
15:39:19 <ChrisBeer> and it lets you include webpages which makes online archival of electronic resources easy for any gov org to manage - let the librarians take care of it for you ;)
15:39:20 <Daniel_Bennett> MARC ... MODS ... Dublin Core, we should include explanation on our site.
15:39:33 <ChrisBeer> Agreed
15:40:18 <edsu> i guess it wouldn't be the first time people advocated for metadata in gov web pages :) http://dublincore.org/dcgapwiki/
15:41:28 <ChrisBeer> Technically you have to by law here. I'm currently setting up my Depts/Ministries centralised pubs area on our site - using both our official metadata standard + RDA which gets released in 6 months or so. Bye!
15:42:26 <ChrisBeer> 2.30 am here - off to bed with me I think
15:44:01 <joec> joec has left #egov
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