W3C

- DRAFT -

XML Processing Model WG

19 Apr 2012

Agenda

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
Vojtech, Alex, Henry, Norm, Murray
Regrets
Cornelia, Jim
Chair
Norm
Scribe
Norm

Contents


Accept this agenda?

-> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-agenda

Norm was going to add the zip questions, but in Jim's absence...

Accepted.

Accept minutes from the previous meeting?

-> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/12-minutes

Accepted.

Next meeting: telcon, 26 April 2012

No regrets heard.

Review of open action items

<scribe> No progress reported on any actions #sadpanda

Review of requirements and use cases

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2012Apr/0024.html

Norm: There's been some email; we could go there or if Murray, there's anything you're looking for...

Murray: I'd like to walk through the use cases and see which, if any, are thought to be incomplete.

Norm: Murray, lead on!

5.7 Extracting MathML

Alex: This is the one I'm going to write about, but haven't yet.

<scribe> ACTION: Alex to write about 5.7, extracting MathML [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action01]

5.12 A Simple Transformation Service

Alex: Depends on what we mean by persistence.

<scribe> ACTION: Alex to write up a description of persistence for 5.12 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action02]

5.13 Service Request/Response Handling on a Handheld

Alex: That could be interpreted many different ways

Vojtech: We can construct pipelines in the browser and submit them to the server, you could do that on a handheld.

Norm: We could drop it.

Alex: It's underspecified.

Norm: We could satisfy the letter of this req. along the lines Vojtech decided, but it'd take half a day and we could do other things with that half day. Let's drop it.

Alex: I agree.

<scribe> ACTION: Murray to drop 5.13 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action03]

5.14 Interact with a Web Service

<scribe> ACTION: Alex to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.14 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action04]

5.15 Parse and/or serialize RSS

<scribe> ACTION: Alex to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.15 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action05]

5.16 XQuery and XSLT 2.0 Collections

Alex: Can we do this in XSLT?

Norm: I think you can.

Alex: I think we'd need to make the "collection" step explicit.

<scribe> ACTION: Norm to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.16 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action06]

5.17 An AJAX Server

Vojtech: I think 5.17 and 5.12 are the same.

<scribe> ACTION: Jim to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.17 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action07]

5.18 Dynamic XQuery

<scribe> ACTION: Norm to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.18 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action08]

5.19 Read/Write Non-XML File

Murray: We don't have a step to read non-XML.

Alex; You did some work in this area, yes?

Vojtech: Yes, but it's not version 1.0 compatible.

Alex: I think that's ok.

Vojtech: I can do this one, I can add a pointer to the paper

Norm: I think this is a clear requirement for XProc V.next

Alex: You could do this today with p:data and using XSLT to parse out the data.

Norm: Yes, I think we should be able to do better in V.next

Murray: I think we should not write ths up then, it's a V.next requirement

<scribe> ACTION: Vojtech to send a pointer to his XML Prague paper to Murray [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action09]

5.20 Update/Insert Document in a Database

Some discussion of various approaches, EMC & MarkLogic included.

Vojtech: There's nothing special about the pipelines, it's just behind the scenes a connection to a database.

Alex: I thought about this with the MarkLogic steps. There's no reason why they wouldn't work with eXist.
... It's pretty generic.
... Would there be value in trying to have a standard way to connect at least to XML databases.

Norm: This sounds to me like a requirement for a new atomic step or set of atomic steps.
... I worry about the details, but we can certainly put a stake in the ground and look at designing atomic steps.

Murray: We should be able to design the steps, whether or not they'd be satisfactory is an open question.

Henry: In the distant past with the Markup Engine, I ended up implementing a very simple gateway to a relational database. It turned out that there were a number of tasks we were exploring where you wanted to be able to look up an atomic item in a relational database.
... I think that's worth exploring. There are a bunch of existence proofs, whether there's a sweet spot is an open question.

5.21-22 Content-dependent/configuration-dependent transformations

Murray: They seem like they'd be easy.

<scribe> ACTION: Vojtech to write pipelines to demontrate 5.21 and 5.22 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action10]

5.23 Response to XML-RPC request

Norm: I think this duplicates 5.12 and 5.17

Vojtech: Well, there's some conditionality in here. I can take a look.

<scribe> ACTION: Vojtech to consider writing a pipeline for 5.23 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action11]

5.24 Database import/ingestion

Norm: Maybe we should combine 5.20 and 5.24 into a more wholistic requirement

5.25 Metadata retrieval

Discussion suggests that this is similar to 5.12, 5.17, etc.

Alex: Maybe we need a more general: pipeline performs query and formats results.

5.26 Non-XML doument production

Murray: This is something we can do today.

Alex: Well, sortof.
... I wonder if we want to combine this with the non-XML input example.

5.27 Integerate computational components

<scribe> ACTION: Alex to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.28 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action12]

5.28 DSDL

<alexmilowski> Veronika cries about DSDL

Norm: I think the salient issue here is whether we want to allow multiple numbers of inputs and outputs

Alex: Do we have any other use case that has that feature requirmenet.

<scribe> ACTION: Norm to write up a description of the split step and the eval step to inform discussion of multiple inputs and outputs [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action13]

Henry: I doubt that the complexity is worth the functionality, but we'll see.

5.29 Large document subtree iteration

Alex: I can write this up. This is a streaming use case. Nothing prevents p:viewport from doing this, but your implementation may not work that way.

<scribe> ACTION: Alex to write up 5.29 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action14]

Norm: Isn't 5.30 just an example of 5.29?

Alex: Yes.

5.31 Fallback of XSLT processor choice

Vojtech: There are a couple of different ways to interpret this.

Norm expresses concerns about the multiple output document.

Norm: I'm all for writing it up, but let's leave out multiple output documents because it's a side issue

<scribe> ACTION: Vojtech and Norm to collaborate on writing up 5.31 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action15]

5.32 No fallback for XQuery

Vojtech: The pipeline will fail at runtime not compile time.

Norm: I can see how a long run that failed because of the last step would be annoying.

Alex: But we have step-available, so this is solved.

Norm: I agree.

<scribe> ACTION: Alex to write a pipeline for 5.32 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action16]

Any other business

Murray: I only recently came across the mail that says the aims of this effort is at low-hanging fruit.
... You can see from this document that I didn't know that.
... When we're talking about resource management, are we being entirely opportunistic?
... Or is there room for something like a webdav.

Norm observes that we did the low-hanging fruit thing in order to be done quickly.

Alex: Why can't we just add a requirmenet for webdav?

Norm: I'm all for adding the requirement

Alex: The deeper question of resource management is still an open issue I think.

Norm: On the resource manager, I think we agreed to talk about it but not put it in the critical path.

Alex: where are the use cases?

<scribe> ACTION: Norm to write a few resource manager use cases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action17]

Murray: The other thing is debugging.
... Who's the champion for debugging?

Norm observes that he'd do it if he had a coupleof years salary in the bank

Alex: Can we engage a tool vendor to help in this area?

Murray: I gotta hope there's more to the story than log messages.
... I know we can do better. What I'm finding it hard to find in the spec is all the ways I can get information.

Alex: I sort of divided the world into debugging vs. tracing a profiling. Should we address this in the spec?

<scribe> ACTION: Norm to put "debugging" on the agenda for next week [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action18]

Henry: I was surprised and impressed that the XQuery implementations got as far as they did. Here's a use case: can you write an XProc processor in XProc?
... I don't think so.
... Another way to put it is, is there an "evaluate this step" step?

Norm: Only in extensions.

Adjourned.

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Alex to write a pipeline for 5.32 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action16]
[NEW] ACTION: Alex to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.14 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: Alex to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.15 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: Alex to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.28 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action12]
[NEW] ACTION: Alex to write about 5.7, extracting MathML [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Alex to write up 5.29 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action14]
[NEW] ACTION: Alex to write up a description of persistence for 5.12 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Jim to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.17 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: Murray to drop 5.13 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Norm to put "debugging" on the agenda for next week [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action18]
[NEW] ACTION: Norm to write a few resource manager use cases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action17]
[NEW] ACTION: Norm to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.16 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: Norm to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.18 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action08]
[NEW] ACTION: Norm to write up a description of the split step and the eval step to inform discussion of multiple inputs and outputs [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action13]
[NEW] ACTION: Vojtech and Norm to collaborate on writing up 5.31 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action15]
[NEW] ACTION: Vojtech to consider writing a pipeline for 5.23 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action11]
[NEW] ACTION: Vojtech to send a pointer to his XML Prague paper to Murray [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action09]
[NEW] ACTION: Vojtech to write pipelines to demontrate 5.21 and 5.22 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action10]
 
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.136 (CVS log)
$Date: 2012/04/19 18:53:24 $